Ep 182: How to Be a Good Fly Fishing Guide and Client, with George Kaider

Jun 18

George Kaider is a recurring guest on the show, also appearing in episodes 95, 119, and 133. He is the owner of In the Flow Fly Fishing and guides in southern Wisconsin. In this episode we discuss what it takes to be a good fly fishing guide, what goes into preparing for a trip, dealing with difficult clients, creating a first class experience, setting expectations as both a guide and client, choosing the right guide, and much more.

In the Flow Fly Fishing Website: link

Email: intheflowflyfishing@gmail.com

Personal Instagram: @zivio51

Guide Service Instagram: @intheflowflyfishing

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Waypoint TV

Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. this is episode 182 with George Kaider on how to be a good fly fishing guide and client. well normally I start off with a background on my guests but you've you've been here like three or four times now so I think that ship has sailed but I'd love to hear you know maybe what you've been up to over the past year or two since since we last talked
George
well it's been really exciting, Katie. I had my biggest season ever. I'm still working as a high school counselor. And so I did 62 trips last season. And that's full day float trips, half day wade trips, but on weekends only during the school year. But if I spring break, for example, we have steelhead season coming up. And so I have quite a few trips planned for that. And then when the school year over than I'm full-time in the summer. So 62 trips was, was, was, was awesome. And it was really exciting. And I've really explored some new rivers too. So that's good. I've been able to fish them myself and really dial them in the last couple of years. And then now I'm able to bring clients to those rivers as well for, for smallmouth bike and muskie. One of the new exciting things is I am purchasing a flats boat. And so, and I, some of you might know that I live in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, which is a vacation capital of the Midwest. Lake Geneva is a glacier formed lake and it's crystal clear. I mean, you can see to the bottom, you know, for like 30, 40 feet, Its depth gets to like 130, so it's very deep. It's 22 miles around. But when you get around the banks and you're fishing the banks, you can actually sight fish, you know, smallmouth and pike, musky, you name it. It's pretty cool. So I'm getting this flats boat, and next season, I'm going to start guiding on Lake Geneva out of the flats boat. So it's going to be pretty cool. kind of pulling it around the shallower water the way a saltwater guide would in the flats. So that's kind of new, and that's going to be really exciting. I hope to pick that up over spring break, and it's going to be really cool. I got a big drive. I got to drive to Florida, pick it up, and bring it right back. And so I only have a couple of days because I'm guiding for steelhead during that time too. But that's really exciting. So I've got two years left as a counselor and I retire. And at that point, I'm going to go year round full time guiding. Other than December, January, February, I'll be down in the Keys, you know, for that time, saltwater fishing and just kind of living the life down there, getting out of the Wisconsin winters, you know, so.
Katie
What will you be sight fishing for from your new boat?
George
Yeah, so in Lake Geneva, we have basically every species you can imagine, but primarily smallmouth, I would say, for sight fishing. The walleye are pretty deep. You're not going to sight fish those. Pike that are laid up in the piers and on the banks, we'll be fishing those. And muskie as well. So a lot of these muskie will like to go to some of the shallow flats to feed on Lake Geneva. And it's an amazing muskie fishery too. So there's 50 inches in there. And so it's pretty exciting. So I just, you know, I'm kind of enamored by saltwater fly fishing. It's become something of an obsession with me, you know. And so my idea was let's bring saltwater fly fishing to the Midwest, you know.
Katie
That's what it's missing.
George
Yeah, yeah. I think it'll be really cool. I think my clients will love it. But Lake Geneva is famous for all of its mansions around the lake that some of them date to the early 1800s. And giving folks just also a tour of the lakefront and seeing all those mansions and where movies were filmed and those type of things, I think just adds to the experience. So I think it'll be really cool. So that's kind of what's up with me in terms of guiding in the next couple of years.
Katie
Yeah, so that's a kind of a good intro to what we're talking about today. I was happy to hear from you in my inbox, my email inbox, suggesting this topic. And it's something that's come up a lot kind of here and there, you know, like guides will often mention things about, you know, how to be a good client, set expectations, what it's like to be a guide, but we've never done a full episode on kind of a day in the life of a fly fishing guide, what to expect if you want to become one, and also from the client side, you know, how to be a good client, how to make the most of a guided trip if you've booked one. And I'm guessing we have a mix of people who listen and want to become a guide and plenty of people who are also booking guided trips and want to maximize their time with a guide. So I'll let you get started here. I'm not sure if it makes more sense to start with one or the other, but I'll let you take it away and kind of introduce what you had in mind for this.
George
Yeah. And I think it's a good topic too, because I use guides. I have one guide that I use down in the Florida Keys. And I've been on smallmouth trips with guides in the UP of Michigan. And I just got back from a trip yesterday out in the Olympic Peninsula, fishing the whole river for steelhead. And I had two different guides. I had one guide that I was using to spay cast and was spay casting only. And then the other guide, we were throwing indicators with NymphRigs. So it was two different experiences. But my idea really for this discussion was, you know, what goes into a guided trip? What goes into the season of a guide? The expectations of a client? I've got some great stories now. I've been doing this for quite a while now. And so, you know, we just kind of have a conversation of all the above. I think it's all a really relevant topic. Guiding has been a blessing in my life. I can tell you that. It's been really special. I've met wonderful people. I've got a chance to work with people of all ability levels too, Katie. And I think that's what's really cool. I've done a little work on this. I think I'm the only guide in the Midwest that does a full instructional program for beginners. Really? Yeah. It's one thing to put beginners in a boat and teach them from the boat and coach them throughout the day and that type of thing. And I think most people do that. Most guides will do that. And I'm sure they do a good job. However, what I've done is I've taken this to a different level, I think, where I spent an hour and a half on land. So we're going to start day off with 90 minutes of instruction where I take them through my entire progression of casting, you know, everything from stance to grip to what I, what I call the, you know, just the different parts of the, the fly rod, what makes a fly rod, you know, as far as generating that kinetic energy and all those things, you know, and, and then we move into the fundamentals of the cast and there's no leader and there's no fly and we're just casting the fly line and I'll take them through that progression of the cast to the point where we're shooting line and we're back casting and and then I'll finish with the roll cast since that's pretty easy and everybody can do it and we don't really use it for smallmouth and pike too much but I want them to learn you know what is a roll cast how can they get that out there to to link a cast maybe or or just get that fly away from the boat a bit. And so taking these beginners from that point to, to catching fish and is, is, is quite a, it's quite a challenge, you know, and, and, but it's super fun. And the challenge for me is, is can I get them to make that cast? You know, I need them to make a 30 foot cast. You know, you figure the leader's about nine to 10 feet long. And if we can cast 20 feet of fly line, you know, we're going to catch fish, you know, cause I can't get super close to the bank, you know, we're going to, we're just going to run up on the fish. So, so I'm taking out beginners all the way through, through experienced expert fly fishermen and, and, it's, and everyone in between, you know? And so it's, it's just been, it's been a blessing and it's been, it's been super cool to see the business develop. And, and I think I have a, a philosophy that really works for all of my clients as well.
Katie
And I think that's a good point, just kind of as the first step in what it's like to be a guide is that I think people might get it in their minds that they're going to be fishing with a certain type of person. And they might be picturing like their friend group, the people that they surround themselves with. And they may forget that when you're a guide, you get whoever comes to you, which could be somebody who's never touched a fly around in their life, somebody who's traveled the world fly fishing. And like you said, everybody in between and being able to jump from one of those people to the other and show them both a good time. You know, if you were to treat the world traveler like a like a beginner or the beginner like the world traveler, neither one of those people is going to have a very good experience. So being able to like tailor what you're doing and not just having a rigid, you know, this is how a trip goes. I think that's really important.
George
It's super important. So that process starts out with a phone interview, you know. So when somebody calls me and says, hey, you know, I want to book a trip or I do, I did a lot of gift certificates this year at Christmas, you know? And so now, now those folks that receive the gift certificates are starting to call me and wanting to get on the books. And, and so, so I do a phone interview and I think that's really important. We're going to have a conversation. What's your experience level? You know, it's easy if they're a beginner because now I can say, all right, we're going to do my beginner protocol. Here we go. You know, this is what your day is going to look like, you know, and because there's when I tell the beginners, we're going to do this 90 minutes on land. But there's things I can't teach you on land. Like you can't teach mending on land. You can't teach how to hook set. You can't teach how to work the fly or the frog pattern or whatever. So that has to be in the water, you know. And so we'll have those conversations on the phone. I'll ask experienced cast flat fishermen, okay, what have you done? You know, have you cast streamers before? The big question is have you cast streamers and how confident are you at getting the fly out about 30 feet? You know, I'm not asking folks to be able to double haul 80 feet into wind like you would on the flats. You know, it's just not, it's just not necessary. But I just need to know where you're at with your casting. You know, it's all about the cast, you know? And so, you know, I need to find out where they're at. And I get a pretty good understanding, I think, through that phone conversation, you know. There's a lot of follow-up questions that I use to get a sense of what they've done. If they're just trout fishermen, they do a lot of roll casting and they nymph a lot, that type of thing, you know, there's a good chance I'm going to have to do some instruction with them, you know. And I've had those situations on the river before where somebody thinks, hey, you know, I'm a fly fisher and I'm experienced, but they're nymphing, you know, and they're throwing an indicator rig and they're and they're roll casting and they're not having to necessarily bang a bank and hit a pocket from 30 to 40 feet out with a streamer and do it properly. You know, so, so I ask those kinds of questions and I get interesting responses. I, I've had people, Katie, that have told me, oh yeah, we've been on trips out West and okay. Yeah. But then I find out that the guide casted it for them and they held the rod when the indicator goes down, lift up, you know? So it's like, they're not really, or they dump it off the side of the boat and that's kind of it, you know? So I've had those stories too, you know? And then you get folks that they embellish their ability level. And I anticipate that a little bit sometimes. And then you get out there and I'm like, hey, let me show you a few things.
Katie
Can you tell based on the person you're talking to that you think they're a little bit full of it when they tell you something? Or do you just trust what they say and you don't find out until you actually get out on the water?
George
Well, I have follow-up questions. Like, hey, where have you finished? You know, what rivers have you fished? What species have you targeted? You know, have you been on a guide trip before? You know, those types of things. We just have a conversation about it. You know, I've been doing this a while now, so I'm pretty good at asking those kinds of questions to find out where they're at with their cast.
Katie
You know, do you ever have anyone go the other way where they, you know, kind of undersell themselves? They, they, you know, insist that they're there to learn and haven't done a lot. Then you get, you get in the boat with them and you're like, actually, you're doing great. And, you know, you've, you're better than you think you are.
George
Yeah, that happens too. Actually, last year I picked up a new client and he's a pretty young guy, 40 years old, good shape, great guy. I just love him to death. And he booked me. He's like, I'm kind of an average caster. I think I get out there and the guy's just slinging it. He had like a 36 fish day. It was unbelievable because he can cast. you know? And so I was, I was like, Whoa, this is awesome. We're going to get after it today, you know? And then he booked with me a couple more times. And, and so, you know, yeah, you get, you get pleasantly surprised, you know, and, and those are the days where you're going to really do well, you know, cause, it always comes down to the cast. And so, so those, those days are pretty special too. And then when you get somebody that, you know, when I get my repeat guys out there that I know can fish, you know, they can cast, they can do it. Then it's game on, you know, it's a, it's a different story. And, and those folks are going to, they're going to do well and we'll get after it. Usually the fish cooperate.
Katie
So you've had your phone call, you've kind of sussed out, you know, your, your client's ability. What's the next step? What happens next in the process? And I don't know if that's kind of like figuring out where you're going to go for the day. I know you had listed that as a, you want to talk about your process for figuring out where you're going to take somebody for the day.
George
Yeah. So, yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. So what we do then is we find a date. You know, a person's got to say, okay, how does this work into my life now? Is it a weekend only? I try to encourage midweek. We don't have a lot of fishermen on my rivers. That's what's really cool about it and what makes them so good. But we do get kayakers, and there's several different, like, Kayaking clubs will come down with 20, 30 kayaks on a Saturday in June or July. So we'll just set a date. But then as that date approaches, you know, I will always reach out and contact my clients two or three days before the trip with a phone call. And say, okay, here's what we need. And I'll go through the protocols of, okay, you got to have your fishing license. We got to have polarized sunglasses. Here's what I expect to wear. You know, no jeans, no cotton. We want quick dry clothes only, you know. And, you know, we'll go through some of that and make sure that's all in order. And then I'll say, okay, here's what I think our best options are, you know, based on water levels, weather conditions, you know, when was the recent rains, you know, whatever it might be. See, I'm really fortunate in that for my summer smallmouth program and pike and muskie, I have six different rivers that I fish. And so all within an hour of my house, it's really cool. You know, I mean, my two home rivers are like, you know, less than like a half an hour away. So that that's really cool. But they're not always at the optimal levels, you know, and I never want to fish the same section of river twice in a week. That's really important to me. And that's more of my conservation heart coming through, you know, where, where I want to make sure those fish are fresh, that they're not being, you know, bothered, that they're not being overfished. So I will never fish the same section of river twice in a week. And so I'm bumping around quite a bit between rivers. I'm kind of a wannabe weatherman, you know, because I'm like, always checking the weather. I'm always checking the gauges. I'm like, you know, it's like a daily thing, you know, and my, my goal is to put folks in the best position possible to catch fish, be successful, you know, based on what I think are the best conditions, you know, and, and, and, and that's what you're after. So I'll communicate that with them. Um, and, a couple of days before the trip and, and then it, then it's kind of, that's my evening, you know, so my evenings in the summer are, are talking to clients, you know, so I've got to, I'm setting up the next day's trip. I'm planning for, two or three days out having those phone conversations. Um, and then I think that kind of gets us into that and kind of, what is the, what are some of the preparation like for a guide? So, I'll walk you through that a bit. Um, so I, I, I do a full lunch on the river. And so, so part of my responsibilities then is I've got to shop. I used to do a grilled lunch every day, which is fine. I still do on the shoulder seasons. So when it's like steelhead season coming up, we're going to go grill out. We need some warm food. It's going to be 30 degrees. Even on the small mouth floats in April and May, we'll grill out on the river. But then in the summer, nobody wants to grill when it's 90 degrees. So, so, my wife and I make a really amazing, deli sandwich. Um, everything's the highest end meat and cheese and breads. And, and, we do, a side of potato salad or coleslaw, fruit usually, obviously you've got waters and Gatorades. So all of that's, you know, Oh, and a bakery cookie too. That's, that's important. Our local bakery does a great job for me. So, so we prepare all of that, you know, and so whether it's grilling out or whether it's making, you know, sandwiches for the next day, all that comes into it. And that, that involves a trip to the grocery store. It's got to be fresh, you know? So you think about that time going to the grocery store. I've guided all day and now I've got to go to the grocery store to stock up on food for the next two days. I have to talk to my clients, what kind of sandwich do they want? What kind of meat do they want? And then you come home after the grocery store and now we got to prep for the day. And the prep work is we're going to clean the coolers out. We've got to get the ice packs back in the freezer and the waters in the refrigerator and the Gatorades and And you prep the sandwiches for the next day, for example. So you're talking about the meat and the cheese and the onion rolls are all in one package. But then I do the lettuce and tomato in a different because you don't want them to get soggy. So it's a, you know, and I got to clean the dishes, you know, because I've got, I use plates and spoons and all of that. So it's all fun, you know, but it's part of the process that goes into it. You know, it's time. And when you want to run a first-class operation for folks and you want to give them a first-class experience, then it's not really work. It's just part of the deal, you know, what you do as a guide. So many guides have gotten away from lunches, I know, you know, kind of to bring your own thing. But I like it. I think it's important. It adds to the experience. And, and, and so that's, what's going on the night or two before, you know, in the preparation. Um, but then I've got to prepare, I got, I gotta be, I'm always tying flies too, you know? So, so the folks are getting all my custom flies. Now, a lot of that's done in the winter time, you know, like, like I've got, I'm right here, I've got all my game changers right, right here that I've been tying. Okay. So, those are, those are always, those are right there, ready to go. I do most of that in the winter, but in the summer, I still, I might go, okay, we've got really low water. So I better tie some small stuff with, we're going to have to go like really light end. So I better get on the vice and get some flies ready to go. But then a lot of what I do is I'm also building leaders. So depending on what river I'm on will depend on what type of leader I have. So I have one river, for example, that's like crystal clear. I mean, it's truly like saltwater fly fishing it's amazing right so 10 to 12 foot leaders long small flies huge small mouth but small flies and then I have other leaders other rivers where we I might go man this is just great top water river we're gonna we're gonna be fishing frogs you know well that's a three to four foot leader you know so it's a different setup so I gotta I gotta build one and build the other for the next day. So all that's done the night before or the morning of, you know, so that's what's going on, you know, in preparation kind of leading up to the day.
Katie
Yeah, this is a good kind of overall point for anyone who has maybe never guided, but is considering it that it's not just a it's not a nine to five. It's a maybe 5am to 7pm and then more after that to get ready for the next day. And like it, there's a lot going on behind the scenes. And I think it's also important as a client to realize, you know, how much effort your guide is putting in, especially, especially trips like yours where there's lunch provided. And I'm sure there are, there's a wide range of trips, like bare bones all the way up to kind of like first class, like you said. But if you are getting one of those trips that involves lunch and, you know, things are already prepared for you, rods are already set up for you. Just keep it in mind that like your guide did all that. It didn't just happen on its own. And it's, it's important to remember all the work that went in before you even got to the trip.
George
Yeah. Yeah. So much so like, for example, like when I was out in the Olympic Peninsula last weekend, I had first class guides. I mean, you know, the guy that took us out for spay casting, I used my own rod. I used my own flies. It was fine. His instruction was phenomenal though. Like he cleaned up so much of my casting with, you know, that it was so cool. So it was really special. But the next day then with the guy that we were throwing egg patterns under indicators, he had all of the, he must, we probably, I probably lost 10 rigs, you know? So, but he had them all rigged, ready to go, you know, boom, boom, boom, just quick changes, get you back on the water again. I know that all of that was prepared ahead of time. You know, all of those tippet sections connected, ready to go with the loop connection just was all done time. And, and he, and he's got to do it again for the next day. So I'm sure when he went home, that's what he had to do. He had to re-rig all those, you know, new, new tippet sections with, with those eggs and get those ready to go for the next day's clients. So, yeah, a lot goes into it. Um, it truly, once I'm in the swing of my guide season, it's all encompassing, you know, When I get home, I'm exhausted. It's a great exhaustion because I'm rowing all day, but it's, hey, I'm going to bed and you get up and do it again the next day. That's just the way it is.
Katie
So let's talk about once the trip actually starts. You've got everything prepped. You show up, I'm sure for every situation, it's going to be different for how you meet clients, meet up with your clients. Some people I'm sure will pick them up. Some people you'll arrange a meeting spot, but let's just assume that you've gotten together with your client and you are on the water. What's kind of going through your mind as the day progresses? I'm sure you're working kind of with the client based on how they're progressing, how they're casting, things like that, what they expect. So just kind of walk me through that. As the day goes along, what's going on in your head and how are you reacting to different things that get thrown your way?
George
Yeah, you bet. Well, it all starts at 4.30 in the morning. So I get up at 4.30 and I'm used to it because I get up every day during my school year as a counselor at 4.30. I'm at the gym at 5.15, and I'm getting my workout in. So I'm used to it. So when I'm guiding, I get up at 4.30. I'm just thinking about the day. I'm processing. I've already decided which river we're doing. But now I've got to decide, and usually the night before, but what boat am I using? am I using the raft or the hard drift boat? And that has to do with water levels in which river. So some rivers, I don't have traditional put-ins and take-outs like you guys do out west. A couple of my rivers do, but most of them have a traditional take-out, but not a put-in, or vice versa. So some of my rivers, I can only use the raft because I can't get the drift boat out of it. You know, there's no way, you know? And, and so, so it's interesting because I've got to have one of those, I got to have which, which boat determined I'm going to take and have that ready to go to, you know? It's got to be clean. It's got to be presentable obviously. So that's a whole nother process that I do. I'm cleaning the boats on, on my days off usually. But then I'm up and I'm usually out the door by 5.30, depending on which river. I'll meet clients at 7, 7.30 or 8. And we usually meet at the takeout, which means I'm already been to the put-in. I've dropped the boat off. All the gear is rigged. Lunches are on board. The whole boat is ready to go and in the water. And it's sitting there waiting. and now I go to the takeout, I meet the clients, I leave my van and my trailer at the takeout, and we're going to shuttle back to the put-in. So when we get to the put-in, even on a beginner trip now, everything's right there ready to go. And so now we're ready to go. But that takes time. So for me to get the drift boat, there's some rivers where I've got to strap the raft or the drift boat onto a kayak carrier and roll it a hundred yards to the river. I mean, that is tough, you know? Um, it's not easy. I mean, I'm kind of a big, strong guy, but that, that is not easy. Um, prepping, making sure you can, I got, if I've got two clients with me, I've always got four rods, You know, so I'll have two rods with a floating line, two rods with a sink tip, or if it's typical July, I'll have two rods set up for streamers, two rods with top water, you know, so it just kind of depends on what time of year it is. But the leaders have to be right. Sometimes I'm building leaders in the morning too. And then I get to decide what flies we're going to start with and get those rigged. Um, I usually be just having some coffee, enjoying, thinking about the day processing, you know, the river I'm thinking, okay, you know, I know this river I've been down at a thousand times, but okay, here's what I want to make sure we're targeting these different spots. I'm kind of visualizing in my head during that time, what I want the day to look like, you know, where I think the fish are going to be. And, given those, those folks a great shot at, at catching those fish. I think you need to, you need to go through that processing of, you know, okay, what's this going to look like? What's my vision in my head for this day for these folks? And, and, and you try to make that come to fruition, you know? Um, so when my clients show up, everything's ready to go at that point, it's just, we're just getting up and going, whether it's instruction or whether it's, just jumping in the boat and going, you know? so that that's kind of what my morning looks like in terms of like the day itself you know it's interesting because smallmouth are and pike musky what I'm mostly fishing for in the summertime it's a lot different than trout like you know trout you you kind of know where they're going to be and at least in our rivers around here they're going to be like right over the drop the pour overs, they're going to be in the runs. They're going to, it s, it s, it s pretty predictable. With pike, I, it s pretty predictable that they re going to be in the slow water. They re going to be in the eddies, the very slow spots of the river. Um, but the smallmouth can kind of, they can move a lot and you kind of need tfing them. You gotta, you gotta hunt them a little bit, you know? Um, and so that, that s what makes it fun though. You know, that s, that s super cool. They re not always in the same spot. They re fish, you know, they re moving around a lot, You know, so my mindset when I get on the river is, is, hey, we got to find these fish, you know, and I know where they should be. You know, I know where they usually are. And I'm going to do my best to find them for folks, you know. But like I've mentioned before, it always comes down to the cast. You know, the folks need to make the cast.
Katie
This might be a good place for me to slip in a question that I wrote down because you had mentioned it ahead of time. Like a difficult client. And I know we can keep moving on with how the day progresses, but I think this would be a good spot for this question about difficult clients because you are looking for the fish. It's not a guarantee that you find them. It might take half the day for you to figure out where they're hanging out. You might be working with somebody who's struggling to get the cast to where the fish are. All kinds of things can lead to the fishing not being great that day. And some people react really well to that, and some people don't react super well to a slow morning or a slow afternoon. So how are you dealing with folks who are not as, I guess, forgiving of the fact that it's fishing and not catching?
George
Yeah. So I can say that I've only had a couple of tough clients that way. And everyone's been so amazing. You know, most people know, hey, listen, I blew that cast. How do you know? Like, okay, so what we're doing is we're banging the banks, right? We're banging banks. We're hitting pockets. Good casters are going to be side-arming under canopies of trees and getting into those places where these fish are, behind rocks. Not every cast is a super challenging cast, but you've got to get it near the bank. These fish are living on the banks. They're not out in the middle of the river where they can get exposed to bald eagles and musky and herons and you name it. So how do you know that if that cast just, if you missed it by two feet, maybe there's a 20 inch smallmouth sitting right there. You just, you know, you just don't know. You got to make the cast. Now I'll usually hold the boat there and give them several opportunities to, to make that cast where I think there could be a really, you know, it could be a really fishy spot. But so I've only had a couple of difficult clients. and one guy it was really interesting because he was just like oh man I can cast I can cast 40 50 feet I'm fine no instructions necessary but he was he ended up just not being able to cast at all like I took him through my whole like interview and he just said all the right things And we get out there and it turns out he was just, he could not cast. And he's flopping his cast. He's throwing slop on the water. And if you throw a bunch of slop, slop to me is when all the fly line ends up on the water in a pile, right? So it's just slop. And you're never going to catch a fish. It's just never going to happen. They're just going to run. You're going to spook them all. And he kept throwing a bunch of slop on the water. and I said, hey, let's get over. Let's do some instruction. I said, I want to work with you on this. Let's clean this up. And he refused. He was just like, no, I can do this. I can do this. Well, then his frustration kept growing. And I said, hey, I'm very patient. I mean, I'm a counselor. So it's like I'm used to working, talking to people in difficult situations. So I'm like, hey, just let me help you out. know, it's, let's go, I've got some ideas for you, you know, and I'm saying, I'm telling him, you know, you're doing some good things, but let's, let's, let's clean some of this up. He refused. He just hunkered down and just did not want to do it. Well, then he just started throwing F-bombs off the front of the bow. And then he started cursing at me, you know, like I wasn't called, like, well, you keep moving the boat, you know, that was his thing, you know, I'm like, yeah, because I, I'm setting up angles with the boat, you know, cause I talked to my clients, like, If I set the angle, I always talk about what I'm doing with the boat. So I talk through every, like, okay, I'm going to turn the boat here now. Okay. Follow my angle. And so I'm like, I'm like, I want you to, you got to cast with the angle I'm setting, you know, because that angle is going to work. The fly is going to be proper. That's where I want to fly. You know, it's, and I'm like, wait till the boat set, you know, it's no big deal, you know, but he just kept getting super frustrated to the point where, you know, I actually told him, I said, I want you to call your wife. I'm going to drop you off at the next bridge.
Katie
Wow. That is, that's farther than I thought you were going to say you took it. Cause I was going to kind of ask, you know, for, for anyone listening who, you know, wants to be guide, this is something, not this specific situation, but you know, difficult client or maybe someone you don't click with is, is inevitable. You're going to have people that just really grind your gears. And, you know, at the end of the day, you kind of have to put on a happy face and, and grin and bear it as much as you want to just strangle them at times. Um, so I didn't realize it was going to go as far as you telling him to get off the boat.
George
I'm not going to play around. Nobody's going to throw MRFers at me at the front of my boat when I'm giving you my heart and soul. Yeah. Every effort, everything I can give every day is going to go into my clients. And so it's physically demanding. It can be emotionally demanding when folks aren't catching fish or blowing casts because I feel for them. I want them to be successful. I want them to have a great day. But I'm not going to be F-bombed like that. It's not appropriate. It's not right. And he was a hothead. And his personality came out loud and clear by about one in the afternoon after lunch. Because at lunch, I tried to say, hey, we're grilling out. We're on an island. The river's right next to us. I'm like, hey, let's do some work. And he was just like, just wasn't having it. I'm like, all right, man, this is what you get then. But then it just got worse and I dropped him off.
Katie
I can't imagine being on a guided trip and not taking suggestions from my guide. I feel like that's the most valuable part of getting a guide is, you know, learning something that you didn't know going into it. Even if it's a species or a type of water that you fish a thousand times, like that guide probably knows something you don't. So I can't imagine not taking advice where it's being given to me. How did he react to you telling him that you were going to drop him off?
George
Yeah, he was like, all right. He calmed down quite a bit after that, and he tried to negotiate with me a bit, but I wasn't negotiating at that point.
Katie
Yeah. There's a difference between not clicking with somebody and verbally abusing them.
George
He was verbally abusive, and I was like, man, listen, I just don't operate this way. It's like, this is not what I do. This is not my deal. you know but that was it that was that was the worst trip I can I can I honestly only have one other experience that I can talk about in terms of that and it was a husband and wife trip and the wife was a beginner and she was the sweetest thing and she was so cool and the husband had said oh I i fly fished before you know I said okay but any and I he told me kind of a bunch of nonsense of what he's done. But I said, well, I want, I'm going to have to take you through our, my instructional, you know, protocol as well, because your, your wife's doing it. So do it together, you know?
Katie
Right. I mean, that's, yeah. You're here together to spend the day together.
George
Yeah. Do it together, you know? And, and he was already giving me like heat, like during the instruction of like, like where he would just watch her and wouldn't do the drills, You know, but then I realized right away, oh my gosh, this guy can't cast. Right. So I was like, I was like, Hey man, listen, I want you to, you know, I want you to participate. Let's do the drills, you know, with us. And he was giving me some, some, some flack, you know, like, oh no, no, it's okay. I'm good. I'm good. I'm like, well, I really think you need to, you know, kind of think about some of these things I'm talking about with the cast, you know? So anyway, we get on the river and, and he can't cast, you know? and it gets embarrassing because, because his, his wife's like thinking he's a knucklehead now, you know, like I tried to help him. I, I, I actually was trying to help him save face in front of his wife. I really was like, just humble yourself, man. Let, let me work with you, you know? So anyway, what he was doing was this, you know, you, you, you, you never release line on your back cast because then you're just going to throw a slack, right? You shoot the line on your, at your forehead on your forward cast. We know that. When I'm saltwater fishing, I'll release line on my back cast because I got to gain so much line speed.
Katie
Well, and you can do it a little bit when you know the feel and you know what a loaded rod feels like and you can play with it a little bit. But I always told beginners the same thing, that you hold it tight on the back cast because you have to think about it.
George
Right, you get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you can't do that. Well, he was like throwing a bunch of slack on his back cast and the fly, he, the fly was like, almost took me out like a couple of times. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Don't do that. You're going to hurt us, you know? And then one time it came in and he threw so much slack that the fly almost took out his wife who was in the back of the boat. And she was like really nervous, like going, whoa, you know, Hey, listen to George, listen to George, you know, he's telling you, don't do that. you know and I told him I said look man I said you're gonna hurt one of us you know you gotta stop doing that imagine this like slack like he's releasing all that line on his back cast and and it's just this slack coming at you where this hook and our small mouth hooks are pretty big you know they're gonna they're gonna do some damage and he's like all right all right all right we did it again and finally I told him I said listen man if you keep doing this I'm gonna take your rod from you I i just can't have you cast you know he's like all right I got it I got it well he put together a couple casts where he wasn't doing it I mean it wasn't going out much more than like you know 15 feet but at least he was like wasn't to it then he did it again he threw that hook and it landed right in his wife's ear and I don't know if they're together still she was so angry you know and she's like she's like and the barb wasn't in all the way thank god so I just pulled it out and it was a little bit bloody and that was about it but thank god for sunglasses too you know it's another reason why everyone's gotta have sunglasses but but that was that was a horrible thing because you know here I'm telling the guy listen you you didn't want to do instruction. You didn't want the point. I told you that we're not going to release line on the fly on the back cast. I, and, and everyone's got to keep in mind. I've, I've demonstrated at this point to him on the boat many times, already many, three, four times or whatever. It's at the forehead. It's here. This is where you shoot the line. And, and she was just absolutely furious, you know, not, not going to talk to him the rest of the day. Um, so, but he was a knucklehead, you know, he, he's a guy that, that, that if he called me today and said, Hey, I want to book a trip with you, I'd say, no, you know, I wouldn't take that trip. You know, it's just, we're not going to operate this way. And, um, but that, you know, those are the only two stories I have, you know, every, every other client has been, absolutely amazing, great experiences. And I just can't say enough about it.
Katie
I know these are both kind of extreme, I would say, in terms of a tough or difficult client. I would say that there's plenty of clients who are, like I've been describing, so you just don't click. And it's not that they're a bad person or anything like that, but there's just not that kind of charisma there. Any tips for somebody who is getting into guiding and maybe they do get a client that is a little tougher and maybe it's not to this level, but just somebody that you can tell that they're not quite clicking or they're not quite taking your advice, but they're not, they're not, they don't warrant being like kicked off the boat. How to handle somebody like that and kind of ensure that they still have a good trip, but you know, you, you still set your own boundaries and don't let, let them be unsafe or anything like that. Is there, is there a delicate way to, to balance that for somebody?
George
Well, you need to remember everyone's got different personalities, you know, I'm a little bit different. I mean, I'm, I'm a fly fishing guy with two master's degrees. So, and I'm a licensed therapist, right? So, so I, I have, you know, I have the ability to communicate with people from all walks of life. It's what I do, you know, I mean, yeah, granted I work with teenagers, but, I have done, marriage counseling. I have done adult therapy as well in private practice. So I've done that, you know, so it's like when you're on the boat, you need to understand that, that just good communication and good conversation is so important. And you as the guide, you need to initiate that, that sometimes, you know? So I'll give you an example. I've gotten, you know, several calls, I don't know, four or five over the years from aspiring guides, you know, Hey, you know, just want to pick your brain. I'm thinking about becoming a guide. You know, I, I looked, I see, I finally went on Facebook, on Instagram or Facebook, or, you know, I checked out your website or whatever, from all over the country too. I've had some, you know, guy from Wisconsin, I call me and, but also from other parts of the country. And, the first thing I say to them is, is, well, do you enjoy people? You know, you've got to want to work with people. You know, every single business that's out there is about helping people get what they want, helping people get what they're asking for, you know? And so you're the one that needs to provide that. So are you good with people? Can you communicate? You know, can you carry a conversation? And those are the things that I focus on. And then I'll get into, obviously, you've got to know your rivers. I mean, you've got to really, really know your rivers, you know, know your fish, know your rivers, know your conditions, all of those things. But I'll tell you, it's like, it's like, think about like your days in high school or college, or when you were on a sports team or something, you don't remember what you learned, or you don't remember those practices or stuff. You remember how you felt. That's what you remember. When you're with that great teacher, you remember how you felt. You didn't remember what you learned all the time, you know, but you remember that teacher was a great teacher and you remember you've always wanted to go to that class. And so I think as a guide, you need to remember that people are going to remember how they felt that day at the end of the day. They might not remember any of the fish they caught, but they're going to remember, hey, that was a great day with George, or that was a great day, or we really, we had a great conversation about life, You know, so those are some of the things I think that are really important. So when you get those personalities of someone who's like a bit more quiet, for example, right? You need to initiate conversation. I want to hear about their life. I want to hear, hey, tell me about your work. Tell me about your family. Tell me about your kids, you know, those types of things. Let's have a conversation. Then you need to draw connections, you know. What's your connection to that person? And so that's really important. Find connections. You're going to be on the boat. I'm with my clients for nine hours. So it's a really long time because I give them eight hours of fishing and then I just count the hour lunch, even though it's not a full hour. But by the time you run shuttle and everything at the end of the day, it ends up being pretty much nine hours. So there's a lot to talk about. and you don't always know what's going on in people's lives either, right? So even though they booked a fishing trip with you three months ago and it's on the calendar for this day, you don't know what happened the day before, the week before. You don't know what's going on. And so I'm not a big rah-rah guy on the river. I have fun. Don't get me wrong. I have fun. I like to, oh my God, that's a great fish. Congrats. I'm that kind of guy, but I'm pretty stoic. And, and Hey, let's have conversations about fishing. Let's have conversations about where that fish are and how we're going to catch those fish and all those things. But let's also talk a little bit about life, you know? And, and, I think that's, that's super important. So I ask a lot of questions. You, you got to ask questions. You got to be like, you know, Hey, you know, you know, tell me, tell me about, tell me about your job, you know? And then, like I said earlier, find a connection, you know? so for example, I've got, I've got, three or four retired doctors that I take out and they range from 90 to like, you know, mid mid sixties, you know? Um, and, but my mother-in-law was a doctor, you know? And so, I was able to like, you know, for the last 30 years, just, you know, talking with her about being a doctor in the profession of that. So I can draw some kind of connection? What's a connection where I can say, oh, yeah, I've talked to my mother-in-law about this. Yeah, tell me more about some of the challenges of being a doctor in this age and day, that type of thing. So you've got to find connections. I think when you do, you're showing not only that you care, but you're just building a relationship and that's what it's all about. you know, because you, people, people come with a lot of different stuff. Now I got it. I'm a counselor, right? So it's, it's a little bit easier for me. It's just, it's what I do, but you need to understand though, that if you're an aspiring guide, you're going to have folks that are going through stuff in their life. They might be going through a divorce. Their wife might have cancer. Their kid might be on drugs. They're, you know, they're just, you just don't know what, and that might come out boat. And if it comes out on the boat, that means that they wanted it to come out on the boat. So when you're out there on the river, to me, it's like a spiritual experience. You're out in nature. It's like you're chasing these fish with a fly rod. The cast is beautiful. And everything about it is so special that I think sometimes it brings out some emotions that maybe is unintended in some people, at least with me, it does, but maybe they're just more comfortable with me in that regard. I don't know, you know, but you just have to understand that, that you're going to, those kinds of conversations are going to come up and I would just embellish it. I would just like embrace it and be like, yeah, tell me more about that, you know, because it makes for a really awesome day and you get to know people at a, at a pretty intimate level.
Katie
Do you think there's people who you would advise, like people who are thinking about becoming a guide or they want to become a guide, who you would maybe steer away from it if they're coming from it or coming to it from more of a fish catching perspective? You know, there's a lot of people out there who are like, well, I really love catching fish. Maybe the path for me is to become a guide because I know how to catch fish and I can show people how to catch fish, but maybe they're not a people person. Maybe they are an introvert, but maybe to the level of like an introvert and I don't really want to talk to people or get to know people. Would you maybe say that guiding is not the best choice for them if they're coming to it strictly from a fishing perspective? Or do you think that folks can kind of come around and find their own ways to, I don't know, still be successful and make their clients happy? Would you say that being a people person is kind of the bigger aspect there?
George
Yeah, it's way bigger. You got to remember that you might be a great fly fisherman. You might be able to catch a bunch of fish and all that, but they don't care what you can do. You know, that's, that's completely irrelevant. Like I said earlier, they're going to care at the end of the day of how they felt when they go home and they reflect on the day or the next day or a week later, they're going to, they're going to, they're going to think, Hey, that was an awesome experience. You know, that's what I want them to think, you know, but my, my philosophy, Katie has always been, I want every one of my clients to feel like they're my only client. It's the same way I approach working with my students. When my student is in my office, I don't want them to feel like, I've got a caseload of 300 kids that I work with, but I want them to feel like they're my only student. And I think when you go into it with that approach, you're not only genuine, but you're also just giving everything you have to that person and that mindset, you know? And because of that, you know, it's funny because sometimes I'll get five or 10 texts a night from my clients just because they, I think they, you know, they think that they're my only client or they, we've become friends too. See, that's the other portion of this. Like when you have repeat clients that book two or three times a year or whatever. They're my friends. Like I keep in touch with them year round, you know? So like, you know, it's like, it's super fun. Yeah. It's a business because they're, they're paying me to guide them, but that's so superficial. Like, that's just like, that's the transaction for my labor, for my work, you know, because they don't, might not have a drift boat or, you know, they just, they want to just fish. They don't want to have to, you know, wait or row or, or they want, they want to keep learning from, from my experience, you know, all those things. But that doesn't mean that they're not my friends too. I mean, they're, they're real. I have very clients that are very close with and have spent time at their homes with their families, you know, for dinner and things like that. So I would say that it's, it has very little to do with catching fish. And, and, and if you don't have that figured out early on, you're not going to be successful as a guide. You know, you, you know, I learned long ago, I, I've always, and this is an education and working how I work is you got to give people your best. Like if you don't give people your best, and I don't mean just like you're, I'm not talking lip service. I'm talking full out your best where I'm exhausted at the end of the day, then I can't live with myself. And that's just me. Like, I just, I can't live. I can't go home and lay my head down at night knowing that I could have gone back upstream and gotten after a fish that was sitting in a pocket that we missed. or that I didn't do enough for that student to help them through whatever they're going through. That's just me. I can't live with myself. So nobody's going to get a half-hearted effort from me. But I know not everybody's like that. And so when you're out looking for a guide, I think you got to really do your diligence. If you're going to spend $500 to $1,000 on a guide, I would make sure that you're getting a true professional, someone who's truly in it for the right reasons.
Katie
Yeah, this would be a good time to ask about kind of the client side. You've talked a lot about what makes a good guide, but as the client who has not yet met the guide, let's say it's not a repeat client, somebody who has done the phone interview with you, what are you looking for in a guide to kind of suss out whether they have these qualities that you're talking about that they are going to provide you the first class experience? Because like you said, they can give you lip service, But they can tell you they're going to make you lunch and stuff, which is a great trip. But as the client, what can you kind of do on the phone interview to figure out if the guide has these qualities and is going to be a good fit for you?
George
Yeah, there's a couple of things. Well, first of all, you need to make sure that person is licensed. We do have guides in Wisconsin and the Midwest who aren't licensed. They're trying to get clients off of Instagram and Facebook and stuff like that. And, so I would say, are they licensed? Do they have, a website, you know, check their reviews. That's really important. I'm very, very, I don't want to use the word proud, but I'm very, thankful and grateful for, you know, I think I have something like 50 or 60, I don't know what it is right now, but five-star reviews only, you know, check those things, read what people have to say and read between the lines, you know, because like, You know, people are going to, when they leave a review, they're going to tell you what it was like and what that guide was like. And people will say some pretty special things. So look at the language. What are they saying about your guide? And generally, I think if they're connected to a fly shop, you're probably going to get a pretty good guide. Because that fly shop, their reputation is connected to that. But the independent guides that are out there, I would do my diligence. I would also make sure that when you have a phone conversation with that person, that you feel like that person was giving you time, that was having a good, genuine conversation about what the day is going to be like and what to expect and those things. I just think you got to be comfortable with that person. I booked with a guide. Well, actually, my wife did. She got me a birthday present with a guide up in the UP of Michigan, and he's a teacher. So he teaches, then he guides, kind of what I do right now, but he's a lot younger. And he's got a YouTube station. And I would watch his YouTube videos, and I got a sense of his personality. And I remember saying to my wife, I'm like, man, I'd love to fish with this guy sometime. He seems like a really neat guy. He's a teacher. He seems like he's a cool guy. And then she booked a trip with me with him. he turned out to be exactly how he portrays himself. And, he was, it was, it was outstanding. And I caught a 46 inch muskie that day. So it was pretty, pretty insane, you know? Um, so do your homework that way and make sure that you're, you're just doing some research on making sure you're getting somebody who's legitimate, you know?
Katie
You mentioned setting expectations, and I think this is important both from a guide's perspective and a client's perspective. You know, the client might be setting expectations about what would constitute a good day for them. Maybe that's a certain number of fish or certain size of fish they want to go for. Maybe it's just having a good day on the water, having some fun. And as the guide, I feel like it's also important just from the perspective of, you know, what's realistic. You might get clients who come in saying, I want to catch a 50-inch muskie. I want to catch five 50-inch muskies. And you're like, that might not happen. So I want to hear your thoughts on setting expectations from both sides and how to kind of work together to both come into the trip knowing what is to be expected, what's not to be expected, what would be a bonus, things like that. So everyone has a good time and isn't caught off guard by things that happen.
George
Yeah, I will rarely talk about fish. I won't ever talk about how many fish we're going to catch and all that. It's out of my control. in so many ways. I'll talk about, you know, what are you looking for in terms of the day? Are you looking to catch, you know, would you prefer to catch, you know, a few more fish, like numbers more, you know, because I do have rivers that have a bunch of like 10 to 12 inch smallmouth where somebody can have a 30 fish day, you know, do we want to, are we going after trophies? Do you want to catch pike? You know, I'd have a specific like musky trip. So that's different. Like on my website, for example, that's if somebody's going for musky, that's its own booking. When it's beginners, I'm pretty much going to focus on two specific rivers that I fish that have good numbers. You know, 10 to 12 inch fish that are going to be bitey and they're going to want to go after the fly with not a big cast. You know, so I just do that for them. You know, it really doesn't come up too much, Katie. You know, it just doesn't. I think what I just tell my folks, we're going to choose the best option possible that I think based on conditions. And we roll with it, you know. I've been fishing these rivers now for, we've been in Lake Geneva for 28 years. When I came here in 2000, I'm sorry, 1998, I was 28 years old. And there were no fly fishermen in the area. Nobody was fishing these rivers back then. This is before the internet, before Google maps, nothing. I was out there hiking these rivers, wading these rivers, too poor to afford waders, you know, just out there and every square inch up and down, you know, it was really exciting, you know? And so I, I know, I know my rivers, you know? And, and so, so I, I'm pretty confident that we're going to catch fish if we can make some good casts throughout the day, but then some people have limitations. Some people just don't get, you know, you can coach them absolutely perfect and they get out there and they just can't do it. A beginner, for example, you know, they just, they just struggle. It's the same, it's the same way that you can, you can, somebody can take a hour and half golf lesson and 30 minutes later, they can't hit it off the tee if their life dependent on it.
Katie
Oh, that would be me. I know for a fact that would be me if I were a golf, if I were trying to take a golf lesson.
George
Yep. Yep. Yep. So, you know, I keep it light, you know, I'll laugh, you know, hey, don't worry, just come back and get the next one. You know, you got to stay very positive, you know. And in the back of your mind, you're just going, oh, my God, please, just some random fish. Please just take the fly, will you? You know, so a lot of that's going on, too, in my head on those kind of days. When I have good casters on the boat, Katie, we're going to get after it. We're going to catch fish, you know.
Katie
Well, I think that's a good thing, too. like with beginners is maybe the expectation is like, we're going to learn something new today. That's right. And that's the goal, you know, fish excluded and that's a bonus. But, you know, there might be people who come in not realizing that that is the expectation, you know, if that hasn't been communicated to them ahead of time. So I think as a guide, just, you know, making it clear that we're going to, we're going to learn something, we're going to have fun, we're going to relax in the water and not be at work today. So that's, you know, that's great. And if we catch some fish, that's awesome. But that way people don't come in thinking that it's a guarantee that they can come in and slap the water and, like you said, throw their slop down and that fish are just going to be all over it, that that's secondary to the actual expectations, which you can guarantee. You can guarantee that they're going to learn something new. Assuming they're not just a complete asshole, you can guarantee they're going to have fun, stuff like that.
George
Well, there's a couple of things that I always say to every client, regardless of their experience level. They can be experts and they can be beginners. I'll say there's a couple of things I want you to know about today. I'll tell them we can't control the fish. We're going to do the best we can. The first thing I say is you will become a better angler today. I said, I will work hard for you. You're going to become a better angler today. That I can guarantee. And the second thing I talk about is, and this is so important, is we fly fish because of the cast. I can't say that enough. we fly fish because of the cast if it I could cast without a hook all day and I wouldn't care I mean you you have to love the cast when I was out in in the pacific northwest I was out in on the whole river with my spay guy he's like he said the same thing we had a lot in common we were very similar with our personalities but he's like I was talking about that with him I'm like it's all about the cast. You just got to love the cast. The cast is the beauty of fly fishing. They make movies about it. They write books about it for a reason. And it's not because of a fish on the end of the hook. It's because of the cast. And so those two things are so important that I, the message that I, that I leave with people, you know, it's just love the cast. It's, it's such a beautiful thing. And when it's done right, you'll know it, you'll feel it, you'll see it. And so, you know, that that's kind of my messaging when it comes to expectations and the usually it takes care of itself the fish cooperate most of the time
Katie
yeah I recently heard somebody on the orvis podcast he written a book kind of about it's it's kind of about games and how we kind of turn things into games and how if it were about getting fish into the net then you just use dynamite you know like that that'll get you fish in your net a lot faster than anything else but like we choose to go out and use a rod and reel. And we specifically choose to go out and use a fly rod and reel because that's more fun for us. And it's like, it's not really as fun if you're not doing it the way you want to do it. So I totally identify with what you're talking about there with like the process is what's fun. And you meet the goal of a fish to kind of get you out there to do it. And there needs to be some kind of motivation for you to go do it. But at the end of the day, it wouldn't matter as much if you just like scooped up the fish in a net. Like that doesn't, the fish being in your hands doesn't mean anything if you didn't do it the way you wanted to do it.
George
yeah like I had one guy tell me once you know oh my gosh if we were crushing if we had a spin if I had a spin rod and a and a and a worm I was like well yeah but then you're not fly fishing we're here to fly fish you know we're doing it the hard way you know like the hard way is the right way in my opinion that's just my feeling about life I mean anything that's hard is worth doing. That's how we grow as a person. That's how we develop ourself as a person is by going through tough times, by going through doing things that are difficult. It's why people golf. Golf is a perfect metaphor for fly fishing because it's so hard. And when do people start really sucking when they're on the golf course is when they get judgmental. It's when they start coming down on themselves. They get frustrated. They get angry. They get judgmental. And that's when they start sucking. That's true of every sport. You know, so one of the things that I talk a lot about too on the river is, is you cannot get judgmental. You've got to leave that at home. Enjoy yourself. You blow a cast, who cares? You come back and make the next one. You know, you've got to restart. Every cast is an opportunity for a restart, you know, and there could be a fish five feet down for you where you just cast it, you know, so, so that, that part of it's super important. And then the other thing that I talk a lot about on the river is, this is pretty special to me is, is that fly fishing has to be intentional. Like you, you just can't be an idiot out there chucking it around. Right. I mean, you, you, you have to be intentional. So for example, like, like I'll say, okay, we're going to be looking for logs that are coming in diagonally on an angle into the water that creates kind of a whole that creates a home for that fish right there behind that log every time you see a log coming in die I want you to hit it that's being intentional now that cast is intentional too I don't want you to put it to the left of the log I want you to put it to the right of the log so you know it's like you just can't chuck it around like like it's a lure and and the lure that's making all that noise is doing all the work. We're fly fishing. It's feathers on a hook, man. You know, it's like, you've got to put it where it needs to be, you know? And, I think that intentionality of fly fishing is also, you know, pretty special too, because it makes people have to focus, you know? And when I get somebody on the boat who's kind of just chucking it around, I'll get experienced people that are just kind of chucking it around like, Nope. Nope. It's not going to get it done. You got to slow down. Here we go. Let's do it again. It's got to be, it's, I don't want it a foot off the bank. I want it on the bank, you know, let's try it again. And so, but those, all of those things is what is carries over to our real life. Those things carry over to our jobs, our family, our career, you name it, our relationships, being intentional, doing things the right way. You know, I talk a lot about that with my clients and it makes sense to them. I have doctors and lawyers and PhDs and all these people who have been through, who are very successful CEOs and they own their own business, you name it. And when I'm talking to them about being intentional and doing things the right way, they get it because they've had to do things the right way to get where they are. So that carries over to the river as well. And so, you know, those types of things are super important to understand. It's not just about casting a fly out there and hope an official catch.
Katie
Well, George, is there anything I didn't ask about that you think is worth bringing up for somebody who is still on the fence, whether they want to pursue a career in guiding or somebody who's booking a guided trip and wants to make sure they maximize their time with the guide?
George
Yeah, for sure. I think one of the things I'd like to talk about is a couple of really special experiences I've had. So you're going to get clients, and I'm talking to clients that maybe have disabilities now too. So if you're a fly fisherman out there and you have a disability, there's a place for you on the river. You just got to find the right guide. I've had some amazing experiences that just touched my heart like you can't believe. so I had a gentleman call call me a year last year and he said George I'm I'm 79 years old but I've got MS I used to be a fly fisherman a saltwater fly fish I can you know I've caught tarpon and bonefish around the world and he said he said but I can't walk and my my wife will drive me to the river, but I use a walker. Will you be able to get me in the boat? It might be my last trip I ever take. I say, yeah, man, I got you. We could do this. My connection to him was that my little brother was paralyzed when he was 21 years old and I took care of him for 20 years. So he passed away, but I understood what he was going through because I lived it with my little brother and I took care of him. And so I was able to, it was amazing because I was able to get him into the boat and he couldn't stand up in the drift boat. Obviously I took the hard boat, but we, he had to sit down and cast, but he could sling it. Right. I was like, Whoa, I was like, man. And I was giving him some, I was giving him some shit too. Like, man, you still got it, man. You are, I don't, I don't want to hear about this MS stuff, man. You know, and he was laughing and he loved it you know and but he wasn't catching any fish because he couldn't see his fly so he couldn't work the streamer because he couldn't really see it and he couldn't get the rod tip down in the water right the way you need to with a streamer so I recognized that so I said I said man it's a little early in the season but let's go top water and we switched to the frog and so I had to build them and I didn't have any leaders set up for top water but I built it for him. And, and gosh, darn it. He started, he started catching fish because all he had to do is pop the frog, but he can see it. See, that was the key. Right. And it was early June. So I was a little bit sketchy on whether or not the fish would take off the top. And, he did, he ended up catching like six fish, but two of them were, or one was an 18 was a 19 inch small mouth, I mean, giant footballs, you know, it was so special. And at the end of the day, he, he was in tears actually. So, you know, it's like, you just, that was one experience. I'll give you another example. I had a gentleman call me from central Illinois and he said, George, I'm 82 years old. This was like four or five years ago. He goes, I've been fly fishing my whole life. I've never caught a steelhead. And I said, all right. I said, it's tough, Gene, but we could do it. You know, I said, let's do it. We'll do our best. Okay. He said, he goes, I've been to Michigan. I've been to Wisconsin. I've been out there trying. I just, I've never, never caught one. So I meet him at the river and, you know, we were getting geared up and all that. It was cold. It's 30 degrees. It's March. You know, we get down to the river and, uh, he takes a header in the river. I mean, just slips, falls and water. It's just instantly, like we haven't even fished yet. And the water's running through his waders, 82 years old. It's freezing out. It's below freezing. I'm like, Oh boy, what are we going to do? So I pick him up. Hey, Gene, you okay? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I said, well, we got to go back to my van. He's like, all right. He goes, what are we going to do? He goes, I'll be okay. I'm like, no, no, it's too cold. Well, again, Being a professional guide, you prepare for these things. I always carry extra set of clothes in the car. I carry extra set of wool socks, sweatpants, long underwear to go under them, sweatshirt, wool shirt, all those things. Those are in my van ready to go for the Wade trips in case somebody were to fall in. So we go, I'm like, I got you covered, man. Don't worry about it. You know, so we go in. He gets warm in my van. We sit there for about half an hour, and he dries off and everything. And, oh, it's a great story. Gosh. We get him geared up again. We go back out there. And I go, let's hike upstream a little bit because I know where there's going to be some more steelhead. And sure enough, there's a steelhead just sitting there. It's clear water. We can see him. You know, they're just sitting on gravel. It's really cool. And he makes a cast, and he's kind of missing it a little bit. And I move him over a little bit. I adjust him. to where I think that same cast, he'll make it. Gosh darn it, like a 26-inch steelhead, not a monster, but a nice steelhead takes the fly, and he hooks up. He's cheering. He's so happy. Well, we land it. We get in the net. We take a couple photos. We release the fish. He sits down on a log, and he's just contemplating. I caught my first steelhead. I go, yeah, you did. I go, let's go get some more. You know, because I knew he could have caught quite a few that day. There were a lot in the river. He goes, no, George, I think I'm done. I go, he goes, I came here and accomplished what I wanted to do. It was only 930 in the morning, you know. So anyway, I said, Gene, have you eaten breakfast yet? So I tried to convince him, like, let's stay out. He was done. That was his dream, was to catch a steelhead. And I mean, it jumped. It gave him a great run. I mean, it was fantastic. Well, I didn't want the day to end. I enjoyed him. I wanted to spend time with him. So I said, have you eaten yet? And he goes, no, I haven't. I go, let's do this. Let's go grill out. I know it's early, but we'll have brats for breakfast. And let's just put our clothes on. And let's hike the river and go look for fish. Let's just go look for them. No rods. Let's just go. You want to hike the river and go see, count them, how many we can count? He goes, oh, that sounds like a great idea, George. And that's what we did the rest of the day. So, you know, it's really like you got to understand that you're going to have these situations that you have to work with people. Last year, I had a client who was paralyzed on his right arm. He was in a snowmobile accident. Can't cast with his right arm. If you go to my Instagram and Facebook, you'll see the pictures. It's amazing. So he calls me. Hey, what do you think, man? I got this. I got to cast lefty. I can't strip it in. I just got to kind of move my arm to move the thigh. I'm like, man, we'll give it a shot, man. You know, I'm like, we can do this. You know, he was only about six months out of this accident. So he was still pretty down. You know, I mean, he was, I can imagine, you know, and he's a righty, so he can't use his right arm the rest of his life. So he got one of these mechanical reels that he clicks a button and it reels it in by itself, you know, and he casts left-handed, but he can't strip because he can't. use his right hand so he just has to jig the rod but he can't stay pretty good with his left hand he can get out there 20 25 30 feet so I was pretty impressed like wow but he just he can't strip so he just jigs it gosh what unbelievable he caught like five pike two small mouth and it was just like the greatest thing ever you know and really really special experience with him and his brother You know, his brother wanted to take him on a fly fishing trip because it was, I think it might have been the first trip, first time since his accident, you know. So that's a special experience. Had a father and son come out. Dad was a pastor. Son was 10 years old. Now, normally for me, 12 is the cutoff just because I just know. Yeah. I've tried younger kids.
Katie
No need to explain.
George
Yeah. So this is great. You guys, anybody who's listening has to go to my Instagram or Facebook and go look at the reels and look at the videos of this, okay? So they're from Connecticut. The dad's a pastor. And they were all visiting their in-laws who live around here. And he told me, yeah, my son, we can both fly fish. My son, he can cast. I'm like, really? Ten? All day long? He's like, yes. You sure he doesn't need instruction? He's like, oh, yeah, he's fine. I'm like, all right. But his goal, he told me, my son's never caught a pike. I'm like, all right. So I get them on the water. The kid's name was John Henry. He's 10 years old. And we're floating down the river. And the upper section of this river is where a lot of the pike are. The midsection is smallmouth. The pike are a lot of them are in the upper section and the lower section. And I know where these pike look to sit. Well, the kid casts out, he catches his first bike, but it's a little hammerhead. It's like, it's like, you know, a baby. It's like a 15 inch bike, you know, nothing. I'm like, how we can, he was so excited. He's yelling. Well, there's this old covert that comes in on river, right? And it dumps in, you know, rainwater, you know, and, it always has a little bit of water trickle in, but just enough where I know there's a, there's a temperature differential there where, where the pike love to sit. And I've caught in some nice pike there. We get over there. I'm like, John Henry, go at that culvert right there. You got to stick it there. He puts a couple of casts in. He's a little short. Comes back again, a little bit to the left. I said, there's a rock under there that you can't see right now, but I know it's there. Put it behind that rock on the right. The kid nails the cast, right? And hooks up to a 40 plus inch pike. It's unbelievable. It's on my videos. I mean, you got to see it. Well, it wouldn't fit in my net. So he's yelling. He's going, oh, my God. You know, the dad's so excited. Dad's the one that videoed it all, and it's on there. But to see that, to have that experience of, you know, having a 10-year-old kid, you know, being able to make that cast the way he did and catch a 40-inch pike, which is a trophy. But me also as the guy, knowing he's got a chance at that spot also is part of the equation that gives me so much joy. You know, it's just another example of how you've got to know your rivers. You've got to know your clients. You've got to do your diligence to make sure that no matter who comes, whether it's, you know, one of these clients I've just talked about or anybody else, you got to meet them where they're at and give them the best experience possible. So yeah, those are some of the cool things that come to mind, I guess, you know?
Katie
Yeah. I mean, you have the chance to like change somebody's life really on a trip, especially like the people you've described here, you know, the guy's potential last trip on the water, people who didn't think they'd be able to do it, who turned out to be able to do it. I think that's one of the most rewarding things about guiding. It's not like random person came out and caught 10 fish, like that's great, but there's people who come out who you will actually change their life or give them one of their best memories of all time. And just knowing that I feel like is enough to kind of keep you going and kind of remind you why you do it. So if that's the kind of thing that you're looking to get out of guiding, I feel like that's the kind of thing that you're not going to get burnt out on it if that's why you're there.
George
Yeah, no, you're not. You're going to love it. It's going to be a blessing in your life. So anyone who's looking to maybe want to guide, you've got to think about all of these things. You got to think about why you want to do it. But I think that's true of anything. I think that's true of what your career, your relationships, you know, you're running a podcast, Katie, you got to think about what you want to get out of it. It's not about, you know, it's not about, okay, how much money am I going to make? It's about the relationships. I think this is our fourth time we've been together having a conversation about fly fishing now in the last five or six years. And it's like, you know, it's about these things that, that are important. You know, at the end of the day, the only thing that matters in life is our relationships with others. Everything else is just nonsense. It's just background noise, you know? So I don't know what to tell you. You know, you, you better be in it for the relationships. And if you want to guide…
Katie
Well, man, if I were in it for the money, this podcast would have shut down a long time ago, I’m telling you that.
George
Right. I know. I get it. I get it. I know. I know.
Katie
Well, George, remind people where they can find you if they want to come book a trip. You're just, I feel like you're just the light of the fly fishing world. Every time I talk to you, you're just such a joy to talk to. So if I were coming to Wisconsin, I'd be booking a trip with you and I'm sure some other folks will want to as well. So where can people do that if they want to reach out to you, book a trip or just chat.
George
Well, thanks Katie. I appreciate the kind words. Well, I'm in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, which is like the vacation capital of the Midwest. It's a gorgeous, beautiful lake. It attracts a lot of people from all over the world. I've had clients from Alaska, Texas, California, Colorado, Argentina, folks that come to Lake Geneva for business, whatever it might be, and looking to get on the river while they're here. So that's pretty cool. My business is in the flow fly fishing. Uh, you can find, my website is in the flow fly fishing.com. And, I'm on Instagram and Facebook. You can follow, you can check out my personal pages, by looking up George Cater, on Facebook and Instagram and Instagram. It's, GVO 51 GVO is Croatian and it means God bless her to life. Kind of like God bless, you know, it's kind of like cheers almost, you know, in Croatian and 51 was my brother's football number. And so you can look that up too and kind of see what I'm up to. I only follow my hobbies in them. I love my passions in life. And I think that's, what's beautiful about social media is when you connect with people through your hobbies, you know, and, and, and what you love about life. And so you can find me in those spots, give me a call to my numbers, 262-325-1159. If you want to talk fishing, guiding, if anybody's guide out there and you want to have a conversation with me about, about guiding, feel free. I don't care if you're in the town next door to me, I don't care. You know, it doesn't matter. I have no, no pride in this. It's all about, you know, kind of whatever, You know, I love to share my, I have 35, 36 years now of fly fishing experience. I don't want to go to my grave, like not sharing this, you know, the knowledge and the experience and all those things. So I'm always willing to help, you know, anyone who wants to book or just talk fly fishing.
Katie
Awesome. Well, George, I really appreciate you reaching out to me. Like I said, you're always welcome on the show and you always have great ideas for topics to cover. So I'm really glad you reached out. And it was just a pleasure to talk to you again. So thank you.
George
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.

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Katie Kusold

Ep 182: How to Be a Good Fly Fishing Guide and Client, with George Kaider

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Ep 182: How to Be a Good Fly Fishing Guide and Client, with George Kaider

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Ep 181: Fishing the High Sierra Backcountry, with Derek Bargaehr

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