Ep 95: Fly Fishing for Pike, with George Kaider
George Kaider is an avid pike, musky, and smallmouth angler. He is also the owner of In the Flow Fly Fishing, a guide service in Wisconsin. In this episode, we dive deep into pike fishing on the fly. George walks me through the necessary gear, casting techniques, pike behavior, seasonality, landing tips, and much more. We also talk about the spiritual side of fly fishing and being “in the flow” on the water.
In the Flow Fly Fishing Website: link
Instagram: @zivio51
Guide Service Instagram: @intheflowflyfishing
Facebook: /george.kaider.9
Guide Service Facebook: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 95 with George Kaider on fly fishing for pike. Great. Well, I'd just love to start by getting a background on my guest. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing.
George
Thanks, Katie. Well, I actually did not grow up in the outdoors. I was a kid who grew up in an apartment complex. And so I grew up with a single mom, me and my brother. And we kind of grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, you know, in a suburb outside of Chicago, but in a pretty tough area, you know, an area that was, I wouldn't say crime and gangs and those types of things. They were there in in some of the other apartment complexes, but ours was a little bit nicer. And so my love of the outdoors was always, how can I get out of the apartment complex? How can I get into the outdoors? You know, so as a kid, I just, I had a fascination with, you know, love for the mountains. I remember as a little boy watching Jeremiah Johnson and thinking that's who I wanna be, you know? But anyway, when I went to college, I was fortunate enough to go to college. I was a good high school football player, and I got a partial scholarship to win on the state in Minnesota. And then the second half of my tuition was paid for through a tuition award program for poor kids. So it was kind of a neat thing. And that got me my first exposure into the outdoors. Then I met my wife and we transferred up to Superior, Wisconsin. That's when I first started fishing and kayaking, and really that's way up north on Lake Superior and near the UP in Michigan, near Duluth, Minnesota. That's when I really started loving the outdoors. But really my passion for fly fishing was interesting. My mother-in-law lived in Middleton, Wisconsin, which is a suburb to the north of Madison. visiting her one weekend. I love fishing. I grew up fishing with my grandma. She's the one who taught me how to fish. I'd fish in all the ponds around the apartment complexes and stuff like that when I was a kid. My mother-in-law, she said, "You know what? There's a famous trout stream down the road called Black Earth Creek. Go check it out." My wife was working at the time. I was just kind of hanging around. Now I'm like 18, 19 years old. I went down there with a little spin rod and I was catching a few trout. I was having a great time, you know, and so I saw these guys fly fishing and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I want to do that." You know, and so here I am like 20 years old and I go out to like a gander mountain and buy a full rig, you know, a full setup, like 30 bucks. It's all the money I had, you know, no idea how to even tie on a fly or whatever. Of course, I was tangled and the thing was a mess within the first two or three casts. I had no idea. I'd go pick up my spin rod and come back and catch a few fish or whatever. Well, a couple of years go by. A lot of folks in my generation, I'm 52, but a river runs through and it comes out. That was a big game changer for me because I watched this beautiful movie, seeing fly fishing and thinking, "Okay, I need to do this. This has to be me." I never took my spin rod back again. Back then, there was no YouTube. You couldn't take clinics or classes. It was just nothing. you know. And so I bought a little like booklets, like these little things of how to do knots, you know, and how to, how to, how to like, you know, cast and all that. And so after a while, I just kind of started getting the hang of it and I would get knotted up and I would just kind of figure out how to tie a, you know, a blood knot or whatever it was. And I started getting it and I just decided one day I was, I was going to be a fly fisherman and never pick up a spin rod again really. And that was kind of the beginning of the end. So that was 32 years ago now that I started fly fishing. So you know that's been in my blood. And Katie like I said, my passion for most of my adult life was besides fly fishing is whitewater kayaking. I've been a class five whitewater kayaker who kayaks some of the hardest water in North America. you know, everything from, you know, 30 foot waterfalls to 50, 60 foot waterfalls, and all over the, from the UP of Michigan out to Colorado down to, you know, Tennessee, West Virginia, all over the country, really. And so, you know, anywhere there's moving water is kind of where I want to be. I just, I love it. You know, it's, to me, rivers and streams are, you know, like the life source of the planet, you know. And so, when you're fishing, you're riding on a kayak or you're running a waterfall. It's just, to me, it's just exhilarating. It's amazing.
Katie
How do you choose between fishing and kayaking when you come across a river and, you know, your two passions are within the same arena, but you can't really do them together. Like, you've got to choose one or the other. Because I assume they kind of cover the same season, right? Like kind of the spring/summer? Is that when kayaking is also pretty big?
George
Yeah, you know, it really depends. I mean, most of my I haven't I haven't been as involved in my kayaking sport in the last couple years only because I started my guide business, you know, and so I'm trying to really build up a strong clientele base. I'm trying to build up something really special. And so that takes a lot of time and energy, obviously. But the thing is, when you're kayaking these beautiful rivers, these are also places where there's wonderful fishing. So crew also fly fishing so that's really fun. But really it kind of you kind of just depend is it going to be a kayaking weekend is it going to be a fishing weekend you kind of have to make that decision because there's so much gear involved with both and there's only so much time in the day you know so you know if we're gonna run some river and you know you got to run shuttle and you gotta you know by the time we do all that and make breakfast you're camping I've got a four-wheel drive van I sleep in, so it's pretty easy. It's still a lot to plan to do both. Now when my wife and I are going on trips, I'll take both. That's easy peasy.
Katie
Yeah, we kind of suffer from the same problem where we're going camping or something and we see that there's good fishing in the area, but there's also mountain biking in the area, and there's also this and that and the other thing. We throw all the gear we own into the truck, and then we end up not doing any of the activities to the fullest because we're trying to fit in like a little bit of everything and it's like we need to just stop. We just, you know, tell ourselves that this is what we're doing this weekend and just be done with it so we can actually enjoy that one thing because we always end up over our heads with way too much stuff and can't actually dive into any activity fully.
George
I know and then it becomes kind of unrealistic. So when you're kayaking, you get up in the morning, right? Let's say you got a crew, you know, we got a crew of like, usually if we're running really hard stuff, it's usually three or four, you know, but we're usually nowhere. So you got to make some breakfast, get some food, and do all those things. We got to set shuttle. Sometimes our shuttles are an hour one way. So your buddies might be waiting for two hours to run shuttle, especially in some of the backcountry of West Virginia and stuff where we go. Then by the time you run the river, and you're scouting, and whatever you're doing on the river and you're done, you're, man, I'll tell you, you're, you're pretty much trashed. So it's like, it's like time to have an IPA and a shot of whiskey and have some dinner and relive the day and tell stories around the campfire. You know, you don't, you don't have much time to do both, you know, and if you're fishing, it's kind of the same thing. You're getting up. If you're running a river, like with my, my fishing buddies who are, two of them are kind of retired kayakers now, They're a little older than me. They're not kayaking much, but they're both fly fishermen. You're still running a shuttle. If I got to put my raft in somewhere and it's the same thing, and you're fishing all day, and now here it is, you're coming off at dark. I'm kind of like a sunrise and sunset guy. It's like when I'm doing something, it's full on. So there's really not time to do more than one thing.
Katie
So the first time you went fly fishing, that time that you were kind of tipped off on the trout stream, but you didn't really know what you were doing yet. What did you do when you got there? Because it sounds like you hadn't really yet dove into actually learning how to flycast. And you said that you didn't have YouTube or anything at the time. So when you showed up to that stream for the very first time with a fly rod in your hand, what did you do with it? And what happened?
George
I bought a rig that was already set up with a leader and a fly line. I mean, I'm not kidding. It was Gander Mountain brand. And it was in that company's not even around anymore, but it was like 30 bucks for the whole rig. And all you got to do is just tie a fly at the end, you know, and so I could do a fisherman knot, so, you know, a quinch knot, so I'd be like, "All right, I could do this." You know, I just picked it up. I knew the leader had to be outside of the rod, and, you know, I knew that the fly line itself was a little bit heavier at the front. I'm pretty athletic, and so I'm like usually able to kind of get stuff, you know, but there's, It's like I tell my clients that are new to it. I'm like, I just wouldn't hand you a set of golf clubs and say, good luck, you know, but that's what I did to myself, you know, and so I literally had was tangled up in knots and had no leader to even work with within five minutes my first time. So I had no idea. But then I just started practicing. I just started to kind of figuring this thing out a little bit. You know, I remember a couple of guys that were, you know, kind of these old timer fishermen out there in the Wisconsin Driftless. And I'd ask them some questions. Okay, what do you do? And some guy was telling me, hey, you got to stop right here at your ear and, you know, let the rod load and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, eventually I just kind of picked up on it. But I went through that phase where a lot of fly fishermen do where they start, where they go, I want to try fly fishing. All right, I'm terrible at this. This is too hard. I'm going to go back and throw spinners. I'm going to throw lures. And you go back and forth, back and forth. And then I literally had this one time where I told myself, I remember it too, where I said, I'm going to be a fly fisherman. That's it. I'm not a fisherman anymore. fly fisherman and that's what I'm going to do and I just stuck to it. Since then I've hardly ever casted a spin rod or a baitcaster. In fact, that's a funny story because one of my clients is a fly fisherman, a doctor out of Chicago suburbs, brought his dad with. But his dad didn't want to learn how to fly fish. His dad just wanted to throw a spinner. So I had to bring like, I do have a couple of good spinning setups, some St. Cory rods and whatever. I brought it, but I rigged it. And I'm like, man, I haven't thrown a spin rod forever. I'm like, okay, I know how to do this. But the first time I'm like, I want to check him. He's throwing this whopper popper, which is on the top water. You know, it makes a lot of noise and whatever. First time to go to practice to see if this thing's, you know, casting okay. I chucked it up in the trees. He's looking at me. I'm like, sorry, man, I'm not a student. I don't really do this. I hope you're better at it than me."
Katie
He's like, "Oh no, this guy's guiding me."
George
Right, that's like a $20 lure. I'm up there climbing a tree and getting it out. Like we haven't even put the raft in the water yet. It was hilarious. So, but then I picked up the fly rod and I'm like, you know, stick from 40 feet into a hula hoop on a bank and he's like, "Oh, okay." You know, and so.
Katie
Yeah, prove yourself after that.
George
Yeah, I had to redeem myself, you know. But yeah, so I just, you know, I just had to make a decision when I was a young guy. I was like, you know, I'm going to be a fly fisherman. You know, there's everything about it just intrigued me. And even like as a football player and a football coach, and I love the fundamentals of sports. I don't love the sport itself all the time. You know, I love the concepts of having to be really good at something to do it right. That intrigues me. And so that's why fly fishing. And then just obviously it brings you to beautiful places and there's an amazing aura about it.
Katie
I know we're going to get into some kind of detailed discussion of pike fishing today, but what you're talking about right now I think fits in nicely with one thing you mentioned that you'd like to talk about, which is kind of the spiritual side of fly fishing, like the beauty of it and the beauty of the casting, and how that kind of goes along with what you've named your guide service in the flow. So tell me about that. Like what, you know, what draws you to fly fishing and kind of the more spiritual side of it?
George
Yeah. So I think for some people, fishing or fly fishing or hunting or whatever they do in the outdoors, kayaking, whatever, it's just something to do, or it's just a sport or it's a hobby. But it's different for me. So for me, kayaking and fly fishing is really beyond a passion for me. I would say it's more of a spiritual way of me of celebrating life. It's a way of celebrating the beauty of nature, of God's creation. It's just a way for me to express myself, too, and to challenge myself. So all of those things, to me, gives me more of a spiritual sense of the sport. It is a connection to God for me because I am in the outdoors. It's a time of reflection, of prayer, of meditation. All those things. My absolute favorite thing is to fly fish all by myself. I have buddies and friends or clients or my kids or whoever who always want to fish, and that's fine. But when I'm out there by myself and it's just me, and it's like I'm in full on mode of I'm going to go stalk these fish, I'm going to work hard at this, I'm going to nail these casts and like 10 hours go by and it feels like it's 10 minutes. And that is the flow state that is hard to get to, you know, because, you know, like there's a few things that have to go into an experience like that. And for example, you can't ever get into like a flow state like that, when you're competitive. Because it has to be non competitive. You know, like if I broadcast I, I don't flinch, like I don't even think of it. If I'm up and if I snag a tree or something, I just go get it restart. You know, I never say Oh, darn, or all this or whatever. You know, I'll never pout or be like, Oh, what the heck, you know, or get frustrated. For example, I got clients who get frustrated, you know, and, and that's not going to get it done, you know, and so it's got to be non competitive. It's got to be non judgmental. It's got to be, it's got to be something that, that you love so much that you can lose yourself in it. And that's what kayaking and fly fishing does for me. And obviously with kayaking, there's that life, like, "Hey, listen, I can get really hurt here. I can drown. I'm running a, you know, I'm running class five whitewater off of a mountainside." You know, that's different where you have to be so mentally focused and in the zone of, you know, putting that paddle stroke in the right spot, timing your strokes and all those things. But with fly fishing, see, it's not an extreme sport, but I still get that same feeling about it because if I know there's a fish there, you know, and if it's a, let's say it's a 30, 40 foot cast, I got to make, I got to get that fly like one inch off that bank. And if I can make that cast, I got a great chance of catching that fish. And if the fish is there, they're usually going to take. If the fish isn't there, I get super excited about just nailing that cast. I made the cast, and that's what counts, because one day that fish will be there. And when that fish is there, then it's going to be a special moment to where I not only made the cast, but also caught the fish. And so when you do that for eight, ten hours, and you're out there on the river, and you're just casting, cast after cast after cast after cast, it's that repetitive motion. That's when I find myself kind of, like I said, in the zone or in that flow state where time seems to stand still. And it's a very special time because not everybody's experienced that. And so that's really why I named my guide business In The Flow of Fly Fishing. And obviously it's got two meetings, you've got the flow of the river, and that's a very special thing in itself. It's beautiful and it's mesmerizing, but it's that flow in your life. So for example, I get clients, doctors, lawyers, engineers, high stress, and they go out there and maybe they don't fly fish a lot, but what I want them to do is I want them to be able to forget their daily life. I want them to forget their problems, forget work, and I always focus on the cast. Just make the cast, enjoy the cast. Fly fishing is all about the cast. about nailing that cast and if there's a fish there, they're gonna take. So I think that's what's so exciting about fly fishing, what makes it really special sport. And obviously it takes us to beautiful places. It takes us to places where a few people go and when they do go, they don't do what we do. It's that, it's the exercise. I love hiking a river for eight or ten hours, and you're just like, "Holy cow, I am trashed." The next day, I'm crapping up in my bed at night. My wife's like, "What the heck?" I'm like, "Why can't I straighten my leg?" The cold water, everything about it, I can't say enough. For me, it's just a really special thing. I do it as much as I can because of that.
Katie
Do you ever find it easier or harder to get in that flow state? Because I know you mentioned, you know, not allowing yourself to get frustrated when you get caught in a tree or a bush and just going and getting it and getting back to where you were and just like getting back in the rhythm of it. And that's something I do struggle with. In that some days I will go out and everything is just working right. It's like everything's a well-oiled machine. I can't miss a cast. cast is landing right where it should and I just feel unstoppable. And then there's other days where I go out and I, you know, it just seems like everything's going wrong. You know, like every cast I'm getting tangled up, every cast I'm getting caught in something. And it's really hard for me to fight through that because I'm always striving for getting into that flow state. And kind of what you're describing is that more spiritual, you're just like, you're just in the moment, you're just there fully present, participating in it. But I still find myself, you know, on those days where it's just not going right, kind of struggling to force through it. But it doesn't feel like something I should be forcing my way into. That's kind of the opposite of what it is. It's not a forceful thing. It's an effortless thing when it's going right. How do you deal with that? Or is that something you've just kind of gotten past and you can just calm yourself down and not let that frustration get to you?
George
Yeah, that's a great question. What you're talking about is basically, that's life. That's life. Sometimes in life we have these wonderful days where our day is great. We had a good night's sleep. We ate healthy. We worked out. We had a great day at work. That's just life. That's the one thing I talk about a lot with clients and even with my boys. Fly fishing does mimic life in a lot of ways. You're going to go out there some days. You're going to have a wonderful, great day. You're going to crush it. And there's other days where you're going to go out there and the fish aren't going to be biting and you're going to be off with your cast. And so, you know, it happens to me too. You know, it's like, you know, it's, I'm probably as good of a caster as anybody. And I, and I, there's days I go out there and I still throw it in the trees and, you know, flop line or whatever. But what I, what I usually do is, is if I'm feeling a little bit off, I lower my expectations for the day. I'll say, "Hey, listen, I'm gonna probably turn this more "into a river hike." I'll scout spots. I might go and clean up some trash and then take a break. Or sometimes I'll just sit down on the side of the river. I'll make a little fire for sometimes and just do a restart. gosh, there's so many people. They just get so down and judgmental so quickly. What am I doing wrong? What's going on? Why am I doing this? I get it so much being a guide because I fish almost every day of my life. I mean, yesterday it was 20 degrees out here in southern Wisconsin. I went out there for about six hours. My wife thinks I'm crazy. I'm like, "Yeah, I am." I caught a nice 28 inch pike, you know, got it on video. It was cool. It was fun. You know, the rest of the time I was just casting and breaking ice off of my guides. So, you know, uh, I don't know. I just think he, you just need to kind of smile and say, okay, let's go back to fundamentals. Let's go back to basics. You know, if I blow some casts, I'll ask myself, okay, what am I doing? You know, what's, what's going on with my cast? How did I, why didn't I make that? Like in my waters, like if you, if you blow a cast at a smallmouth bass, that bass is probably gone. But a pike will kind of stick around. And so you're not going to really spook pike. And so I'll so like I'll just like if I blow a cast, I'll come back and I'll try that same cast. I'm not trying to catch the fish, but I'll try making that same cast ten times in a row. OK, so I threw it in that tree. OK, now let's go get the let's get the fly. Come on back and let's nail that cast. Let's go. Just nail the cast. All right. I got it. I got it. And hit that spot. I do that sometimes with clients too. I'll be like, you know, I'll be, I'll like know there's a fish there, you know? And, and the client will blow the cast, throw a bunch of slop in the water or whatever, and I'll be like, Hey, I'm going to drop anchor right now. That fish is probably gone, but let's just, let's nail that cast a couple more times. You know, let's get that cast out. And that's all you can do really, you know, is going with, with the, with the right mindset that you just want to improve and enjoy your day.
Katie
Yeah, that's something that I think it's one of those do as I say, not as I do things. I used to do a little bit of guiding and I would tell beginners on a first day out, "Hey, you're going to get frustrated today. There's no way around it. You're going to get frustrated. When you do, just stop for a minute or two and just look up, look at the mountains, breathe for a little bit and then come back to it. But like don't cast again while you're still in that negative mindset because that's going to ruin that cast and that's going to ruin the next cast and you're just going to get into this like rut that you can't get out of because the more frustrated you get the worse you're going to get. And so I would tell people that to just like stop, breathe, you know, sit down, look at the lake, look at the mountains. But then when I'm out there I like don't remember to do that myself, you know, I will fall into that rut. And so it's like I've got to sit back and remind myself, hey, you're out here fishing, like it could be so much worse. You out here fishing, you know? Like, just be happier there. And you know, so what if it doesn't go well? You know, at the worst, you get to walk along the river for a bit and look at the scenery, which is, you know, a great day in itself for some people. They might just be going out for a walk anyway. So why am I going to get upset that I didn't catch a fish while I was on that walk, you know?
George
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's different for me than it is when I'm with clients. Like, when I go out, I'm going to catch fish. Because the style of fishing that I fish, smallmouth bass, pike, musky, that type of fish, it's very similar to saltwater fishing, where you've got to nail the cast. If you don't nail the cast, you're not going to catch them. And that's intriguing for me. But when I guide out in the driftless for trout, but anybody can throw a nymph. I mean, in fact, I tell my, I always say to people, I say, nymphing is nymphing, it's not fly fishing. There's, if you're going to go out and nymph for trout, that's great. I love it actually. When I go out nymphing for trout, I'm like, I'm having a great time, there's no pressure, I just chuck it out there and let it drift down to me. It's fun, and so it's relaxing. But that's not fly fishing, that's nymphing. And so a lot of times I'll take beginners nymphing if they want to go trout fishing, because I know they'll catch fish, they'll feel good about that. I'll still teach them, obviously take them through the entire progression of learning how to fly cast, you know, starting on land and then moving to wading and all that. But, but they just actually catching fish on a fly rod is so fun for them that I tend to tend to take most of my beginners trout fishing first, teaching them to nymph because, you know, 100% of the time they're going to catch fish.
Katie
So what counts as fly fishing for you? Is it all in the cast? Like if you're not getting, you know, a back cast and a forward cast and laying out line versus, you know, nymphing, you're often just kind of hucking an indicator and a heavy rig out. Like, is that what differentiates it for you?
George
Well, it does. But I would also say there's way more to it, such as fly construction and all the material that goes into that fly and what you want that fly to do. Leader construction, is your leader matching the fly? And so are you using a floating line or using a sink tip? What rate is your sink tip? So there's a lot that goes into it. When you start, and what are water conditions too? So water conditions play a big deal When you're talking smallmouth bass and pike and musky and you know and so Um makes a big difference like out in the driftless where I fish for trout here in Wisconsin The water conditions are almost the same every time you go out there because they're spring creeks, right? So these spring creeks are flowing at the same rate same temperature pretty much. There's a slight fluctuation In the temperature and you're always for trout. Obviously, you're always fishing rising temperature um bass and pike and musky and these warm water species, you have to look at everything from the fly to the leader to the size rod that you're using and everything in between. All of those have to match and be right for your situation. And so for me, the difference between the two would be I got to think a lot more about all of that for myself or for clients than if I'm going trout fishing. So if I'm going trout fishing, I don't have to think much about my leader. So I know exactly what I'm going to use. It's going to be your typical 9-foot leader. I can throw on-- it doesn't matter if it's monolithic or all the trout are still going to take. I can throw a streamer on the end of my butt section. I can throw a dry on the end of my 9-foot nip section. It doesn't make a difference. They're going to take it. if the situation's right. So, but a lot changes with warm water.
Katie
So let's get into warm water a little bit 'cause I know we're gonna mostly talk about pike today. And maybe you're the best person to ask where is the best place to start 'cause I'm inclined to start with something like gear, but I know we'll also probably talk about techniques and things like that. So maybe just give me your kind of 30,000 foot view of how you would approach fishing for pike for somebody who maybe hasn't tried it before and is looking to get into it.
George
Yeah, you bet. First of all, pike live in the same waters as smallmouth bass and musky. Those are the three gang species. Sometimes there's largemouth bass in some of our creeks and rivers as well, but not that many. And then obviously you've got the food that they feed on as well. And so you've got bait fish patterns, you've got crayfish. I've seen smallmouth rip the guts out of clams, you You've got suckers and carp and those types of fish in the water, sculpins. All of those are swimming around in the same water. Basically when you're targeting pike, you're also at a chance to catch smallmouth bass and musky as well in a lot of our rivers. What you need to decide is what's your primary goal of the day. If your primary goal of the day is to target pike and muskie, well that changes the game because now we're going to throw a different rod. Now we're going to throw a 10-weight rod, 9'10" weight. Now our flies are going to be these. These are some that I tied the other night, a fly tying event, which are like six, seven, eight inch, you know, deceiver patterns or Buford patterns. So the game changes and then you can decide, okay, well we're going to use a sink tip. So now our leader construction is only going to be about four feet. And I usually throw like, I do like a two foot butt section of 60 pound down to two foot of 50 pound, maybe a 40 pound bite wire, tip it, you know, something like that. So you've got to decide on really what your goal is. Because if your smallmouth bass goal for the day, then that changes the game a little bit. Because now you're downsizing to eight weight rods. And now you're downsizing your flies to four to six inch flies. And your leaders might be different. Now you might be on a little bit skinnier water, where maybe you're throwing a floating line with a baitfish pattern that's only getting in the middle of the water column, similar to throwing a streamer for a trout, or your top water for frogs. So all that changes. But in terms of... If I decide I'm gonna really focus on pike, and that's one of my most absolute favorite species, now it really comes down to your equipment first, like you had mentioned, And really, it needs to be a tight 10 weight rod. And now you just need to decide if you're going top water or if you're going floaty line or sink tip from there. And once you make that decision, now you really have to find the right fly. What's that fly going to do in the water? So for streamer patterns, pike love a fly that kicks and flutters. And so, you know, I'm always looking for a fly that'll kick to the left or kick to the right and then sit and flutter. And they'll usually strike it on the flutter. So as soon as that fly begins to flutter, they'll strike. So, and we can talk more about that too down the road, but, you know, that 10 foot, I'm sorry, that 10 weight rod is a starting point, but the leader construction really makes a difference compared to like what flyer you're using, what fly line you're using.
Katie
Is the 10 weight rod more for the size of the flies you're casting or for the size of the fish that you're bringing in?
George
It's both, but I would say it's primarily for the size of the fly.
Katie
Okay, if fly size were not an issue at all, what weight rod would be appropriate just like for the size of the fish you're bringing in? Like I have to imagine that for many pike that people would catch, it wouldn't be necessary for a 10 weight. I would picture more like an 8, 9 weight, but I could be totally wrong. I'm just kind of curious if fly selection were a non-issue.
George
Yeah. So it's an 8 weight for sure. I wouldn't go any lighter than an 8 weight though. Any lighter and you're going to be stressing that fish and a big pike can snap that rod. So weight and I throw a fly that is like a tweener fly. It's a fly that you can still catch small mouth but you're still going to catch pike. It's a tweener. It's that six inch fly. It's perfect. Maybe something a little bit smaller. That's the one I tend to throw the most. For clients, They just want to have some action and get on fish. Most of my clients, I would say, are intrigued by pike fishing. Because these pike are huge. And they strike like crazy. And the attack on the fly is unbelievable. And so it's like- they're basically like freshwater barracuda. They just come from like 20 feet away. And boom, you see the whole thing. It's amazing. So if somebody says, "Hey, I really want to focus on pike," and I'm saying, "Okay, we're gonna throw 10 weights "because we're gonna throw some chunks of meat in them." But if it's my typical guy who just wants to get on fish, small mouth pike, then we'll use an eight weight. 'Cause the pike, they'll still go after those smaller flies.
Katie
Yeah, I caught a pike this past summer on a size, I don't know, maybe 10 woolly bugger.
George
Yeah, right, they'll take it.
Katie
So tell me about the technique. I assume a lot of what you're doing is sight fishing, but tell me if I'm wrong there. It sounds like the cast, you're trying to really nail where the fly is landing. So walk me through, you, I assume, spot a pike. What do you do from there?
George
So some of my rivers are definitely sight fishing. Really cool. These pikes are laid up, I would say very similar to snook, kind of laid up in the mangroves, where you can see them. I'm in my raft a lot of times I have my casting platform on the front of it so my clients are standing up you can really see them sitting there. But the pike are always going to be in the slower moving water. So like where the smallmouth will be more hanging out like in the runs or the currents or you know where there's a little faster water the pike are going to be in the eddies. They're going to be in in the slow water they're going to be where the structure is, they're going to be where the pockets are in the banks, where pikes are going to be any, you're going to find smallmouth kind of like everywhere in those spots as well, but you're also going to find smallmouth along rocks and rock gardens and little rock outcroppings and things like that, where the pike are going to be in that slower water where they just sit and they can ambush prey. You know, and so I always talk about with people that we first got to find them. We got to hunt them. You know, and it's very similar to hunting. Where are they? Okay, there's structure there. There's a log there. My favorite is the fish pockets and points. So you've got a high grass bank and what's happening above the bank is happening below the bank. So that outer bend of the river has usually been cut out, you've got a little bit of depth, and you get these little pockets, right? So there's the grass or the mud bank is kind of like pocketed out, and it's about maybe two foot long, and you've got a point at the front, a point at the back, and the pocket in between. And those pike love to sit in those pockets. And you got to nail that pocket though, you know, you got to nail it from, you know, 30 minimum, you know, to really, if we get much closer, you know, it's just it gets tough because I don't know, but we might be spooking them. I feel like we do if we're getting closer, you know, but a lot of times people will flop their cast when it's too close, you know, it's like you just, if it's too close, it's hard to be delicate and kind of lay it down in there, but that's what, that's where those fish are living. We got to hunt those spots and we got to keep digging those spots all the way down the river. I do the same thing if I'm waiting, if I'm hunting by myself, like yesterday, it's the same concept. I'm hitting the pockets, I'm hitting the structure. Slow moving water. The eddies behind structure, super good spots as well.
Katie
How deep in the water column are you generally trying to get your fly?
George
It depends if I'm like right now our water is really low because it's winter you know and so and we're actually in like a three-year drought now in southeast Wisconsin and so our water has been very low and so you could fish like a floating line is what I'm with right now with a pretty long leader for me I mean I would say I think right now I think yesterday when I was out there you know probably approaching eight foot on that leader, you know, which is really unusual, but I've got like two feet of 40 pound bite wire and that's what's getting the fly down. No matter what the water depth is, I want the fly to hover in about the middle of the water column most of the time, you know. I mean, but you got to remember that from June to August, I'm almost fishing frog patterns, I mean, 80% of the time. So we're on top with floating lines, throwing frogs, because it's so exciting, you know. And the top water bite here in southeast Wisconsin is unbelievable, you know. And so, you know, it's hard to pass that up, you know, because it's the blowups are absolutely huge, you know. So it's super cool. But, you know, but like right now, obviously it depends on the season. So that's only a couple months out of the year. So the rest of the time we're throwing streamers. And I would say water depth has probably the most important factor on where you want that fly. I like it right for pike, I like it right in the middle of the water column. And I don't want that fly grabbing the bottom. So if I have too heavy of a sink tip on and I'm snagging on bottom, want that. Right now our water level is winter low. You know you got a lot of ice on the banks. And so because it's low water I'm actually throwing a floating line right now with a longer leader. You know and so and with that 40 pound bite wire it gets it down right in the middle of the water column so it's perfect.
Katie
I feel like the frog pattern you're describing is kind of like the pike equivalent of like hopper season for trout as a trout person. Like July to maybe early September where you know you throw out these giant foam hopper patterns and trout just hammer them all day long and it doesn't get any better than that but it's a very short window and you've got to like cash in on it while you can because you know throwing that out of season is not gonna get you anywhere so it's it's kind of what I'm picturing for Pike. Does that sound like an apt comparison to you?
George
Yeah it's an absolute comparison. Our hopper season for trout in Wisconsin is more late July through August but for topwater for smallmouth and pike, I'll catch topwater in May through September, actually. But really that prime season is June and July. In August, our water... And the first two weeks of August, but then it all has to do with the water temperature. Once that water temperature starts dropping and I feel like I'm not getting as many blow-ups on the top water, then I'll switch to streamer fishing again just to get the fish. I know where they're at, so it's a matter of where are they going to take it in the water column, whether it's on top or mid or low on the bottom. I'll switch accordingly.
Katie
Tell me more about the seasonality and what the pike are doing in each season. Maybe just a spring, summer, fall, winter kind of cycle. What are the pike doing and how are you adapting to those changes?
George
Yeah. So, pike, I fish for pike a lot. Personally, it's the fish that I probably target the most because I have so much access to it year round. The best way to answer that question is to start with winter. Okay? And so, winter pike season, and I'll just, I know it's not winter, but I'll just, I'll just call it winter, like November 1st, right? So at the end of October, the smallmouth start to go dormant. You know, they really are migrating towards these deep holes, and some of our, some of our rivers and creeks that I fish are actually tributaries of larger rivers, and so they're making their way back down, and they'll come back up to spawn in the spring, very similar to like a steelhead would. And so a lot of times, pike are the only thing that's left in the water, which is really fun. And so around November 1st, I start that as my winter pike season. And winter pike then go from November, December, January, and February. And so I know where there's open water year round. And so I'll go out there and find it. I'll usually do pretty well. I'll catch at least one a day, if not three, four, five, six different pike and if you can find open water. And during that time it's streamers fishing only, it's very slow retrieves, it's let that fly just sit and kind of hover in the water. Because the pike are just following food right so they're eating for the spawn. In the winter they are very hungry, they are eating, they're the first to spawn in the spring and so they're just loading up and they are huge too. They're literally double in size in their thickness and girth as they are in the summer. It's super cool. And so what I do is I'll sight fish a lot during this time and I'll look for suckers. If I can find suckers, I know there's going to be pike nearby. You know, and so I'll look for those in the winter because the water's low, it's clear, you know, it's easy to see. But then the pike season shuts down in Wisconsin from March through May 1st. And that is because they are spawning during that time. And so we can't target those fish, nor do I want to, because that spawn is so important for our fisheries. But it's pretty cool. I'll go out there sometimes, and there's no smallmouths to be caught during that time either. And basically it's fine with me because I'm steelheading during that time. So, you know, whether it's me fishing or guiding and steelheading or trout fishing, because the trout's really good during that time. But I still like to go out and just hike the river and watch them because you can, they're lined up on reds just like a steelhead would be. It's super cool to see a pike doing that. But then when the season opens again in May, I usually start off with streamers for about the first month and they are starting to eat again because they don't eat too much during the spawn. You can tell just sitting there, it's all they want to do is spawn. But it's pretty much streamer time for the month of May. They're still moving during that time. They're still moving into what I call their summer spots. Sometimes in May can be tricky. You've got to find them. You've got to hunt them. not in their usual spots yet where they are. They tend to be still in some of the deeper poles, deeper pockets on the river. But then by June, by that first of June, they are in their summer spots. And now it's game on. And I'm usually switching to topwater at that time, throwing pretty large frog patterns. And I'll pretty much be topwater from then, at least for sure through July, and then into, I guess about the second, third week of August. But then we'll switch back for pike mid-August to streamers, and they'll be taking streamers all the way again then into the winter season through November. So it's super cool. I would say that they're way more aggressive during the summer months, but way bigger during the winter months. They're pre-spawn. Yeah, they literally double in size. You look at some pictures that I have, and some of the fish in the summertime, these long, skinny, gator-looking fish, that same fish will be like twice as thick in the winter. So it's super cool. That's kind of the season.
Katie
You mentioned, you know, you can have some really good days in the winter and that you could catch anywhere between one and five or six pike. And I know it's fishing, so take that in mind. But what would be an average day of fishing for you? How many pike are you generally bringing to the net on a typical day, during a time of year that you enjoy fishing?
George
So for me personally, one day last winter, I've got a one man water master I took out and I caught 13 pike in a day. I was like, "Oh, I crushed it, it was awesome." It was like December last year or something, like this time last year. And just absolutely crushed it. They were just kind of stacked up in this lower section of the river I kind of had a hunch they would be, you know, and so that was pretty cool. If I go out by myself or with my buddy, Matt, who's my fishing buddy, remember though, we're also in waters that have smallmouth, right? So we can go out and have, you know, a 30 fish day would be, you know, just a typical average good day.
Katie
Wow.
George
30 fish a day in there, and half of those fish are going to be pike. But when I go out, I tend to really target both species at once. And so it's like, kind of whatever we take. They live in the same water. But they don't live together. See, that's the key. The smallmouth are either going to be at the front end of a hole or a bend in the river, or they're going to be in the back, the pike will be in the front. They don't live together because those pike are the top dog, unless there's muskie in that river. But if there's muskie, the muskie are the top dog. But those smallmouth have nothing to do with those pikes. They're not going to live in the same spot. So if I catch a pike at the, let's say we get a big bend in the river, right, and I'm catching a pike at the front of that bend, I'm not going to catch a smallmouth there. know it's gonna be it's gonna be 20 yards down down river then I might run into a smallmouth at that point you know so yeah I mean the days fluctuate but in the winter if I go out there and catch one I'm happy you know it doesn't matter if I catch any I'm happy as well but I'm usually good for a few fish you know and just depends on the conditions and how cold it is you know if it's if it's in that 30 degree range with no wind you know then I'm not picking ice off my guides all day, so you're getting more casts in the water, so you have a better chance. But I would say for the pike in the summertime, man, we just chucked frog patterns at them all the time, and that's just amazing. See, with pike, they always say smallmouth are the hardest freshwater fight. I agree, they are. Smallmouth pound for pound, they fight like a saltwater fish. similar to a red or a snook. But pike, they don't fight like that. When you are fishing for pike, you're after the bite. You're after the strike. The strike is so vicious and so fast, especially on the top water. You can see a wake from a pike or a muskie, because they're basically cousins. You can see a wake coming from 20 feet away, and you've got a a 30, 36 inch bike coming and destroying the fog. And it's so visual and so exciting. And then they'll jump and they'll tail walk for you. But then after that, they generally lay down. And you can kind of drag them into the boat at that point. You know, and where smallmouth be fighting, tugging, and running and pulling drag the entire time just about that you're fighting them. But the coolest thing is I don't even care 'cause when you start stripping that bike in and you get it to your feet or the edge of the boat, they just kind of stare at you, you know? And they got those teeth and they're just, you just feel like he's looking at you staring it up. It's just kind of like, all right, you got me this time, but you're next buddy. That's the kind of feeling you get from those fish. It's super cool.
Katie
Yeah, it's really interesting that you described it that way 'cause I actually just talked to a guy, I think his episode's coming out this week that we're recording this coming week. He said the exact same thing he does a lot of pike and a lot of trout. And he was like, you know, I think of pike as being the cutthroats of the kind of warmer water world because, you know, people really want to get brown trout on the line because they fight so well and it's such an exciting moment when you get one on. But he described cutthroats as being more like you might see them swimming through crystal clear water and you've got to place your dry fly just right and you can watch him slowly come up and take it. And that's the exciting part. But once you get them on the line, They don't put up a huge fight once you get them on.
George
No.
Katie
And he was like, with pike, it's the same way. And it's the first time I had ever heard pike be compared to cutthroat trout. But he said the same thing, that the whole act of pike fishing is all based around the puzzle and getting them to take it and that moment they take. But then after that, it's kind of like, all right, bring them in, get the hook out, send them on their way and go for the next one, the next take. Because that's like the defining moment of pike fishing.
George
Yeah, it is. It's all about the strike. I tell my clients that and that's what they get so excited about Pike because most of them have never gotten a pike on the fly and they see it coming it's so visual it's you know and some of these pike are huge and we've got 40 inch pike here and so you know this it's just super cool to see you know and but you still have to make the casts you know I mean I think you asked me earlier a little bit about the cast I don't know if I talked about that actually I don't it did. So one of the things that I think is super important is that when you're, I mean accuracy for smallmouth is really important. You got, you got to nail that shot on the first cast otherwise you're going to spook them, they're going to run. And so you got to be able to hit it from 30 feet, 40 is better. Stick it in a hula hoop on the pocket or structure and rip it through. Pike, you don't have to be as accurate. You just got to put it somewhere near there, you know, and you're in good shape. But I'd like to talk to everyone about the cast. So way too many people spend way too much time casting. And so what I mean by that is, is that fly, if your fly is in the air and you're back casting one, two, three, four, five, you are just wasting time and not catching fish. Very few, very, very few times do I double haul, you know. However, a single haul is really important. So to give an example, it's hard in an audio recording to describe it, but I'll give my best shot. Okay, so let's say you've already cast it and you got a streamer on and you're making cast, let's say a 30 foot cast, so a good, a decent cast, 30 foot, and you're stripping it and strip it in. So once you get to the point where you got about, you know, eight to ten feet of your shooting head still out of your fly line, you need to recast. But if you, if you keep, if you keep stripping in and you're getting right to to your leader, well, first of all, that's not where the fish are. The fish are over on the bank. A fish would have already taken that fly by that time. These pike would have already taken it. Smallmouth would have taken it. So you should have already recast it. And so what I have happened a lot is folks are stripping in too close and they're giving that leader to their tip. And now they have no choice but to keep kind of backcasting, backcasting get that fly line back out and with me I only fish six feet off a bank that is it and so I'll cast strip strip strip six feet off boom recast again I want my fly in the water every three to five feet off that bank and that is it there is no sense of stripping it to the boat there's no sense of sense of stripping it to your feet these are predator fish if they're there they're gonna take and And so what I like to teach and what I focus on is strip it so that you've got about still eight to ten feet of the shooting head out and then use that as a, use your fly as a water anchor and come back and just single haul. All I want is a single haul right there, boom, and reshoot it and hit your spot. And if you can do that and keep that fly in the water, you're going to have a great day. And so for example, when I'm saltwater fly fishing, it's a much smaller fly. It's much easier to double haul. A lot of times down in the Keys where I fish, it's super windy. And so you're trying to cut wind. I get that. Build up some speed. But with these flies that are-- these 8-inch pike flies, they're heavy. they're filled with water, they're going to carry that fly line for you. So all you have to do is just single haul and shoot. And as long as you're semi-accurate and get it close to the spot, you're going to you're going to have a chance to catch fish, you know. And so that single haul is is an absolute clutch technique for for warm water fish, whether it's musky, small, or the pike. You've got to be able to single haul and you've got to you've got to deliver that fly on a rope, you know, and get it in the water. So I'd say that's the technique that's probably the most important.
Katie
So I'm trying to reconcile what you're saying makes sense But I'm trying to reconcile that with what I've heard from a lot of people which is the figure eight Which I don't know if that's as important with pike as it is for muskie But you know that the idea that they will follow the fly the whole way up to the boat Let's say and might might not take it until that last little you know Flick of the fly in a little figure eight pattern So do you ever do ever do that or have you found it's just not necessary or is that you know? Why is that such a popular thing to do? It sounds like you're kind of doing the opposite
George
So they will and so I do that when I wait So a lot of times when I'm waiting or with them caught with clients if we drop anchor and I've got a section that we're gonna wait Sometimes that pike and we can watch it or a muskie. You'll see it It's following it, you know, and and and it will take it right by your feet, too What I guess what I'm talking about more is when you're in the raft Statistically speaking, you know, when you're thinking about keeping that fly in the water, see if a, if a pike or a muskie follows your fly to the boat and doesn't take, it's not, it didn't just disappear. That fish is still sitting right out there somewhere, right? So you can recast again, maybe work a little bit different, retrieve something a little bit different and still catch that fish, you know? And so a lot of times, for me, it's all about, OK, that boat's moving. I'm on the oars. I'm holding the boat and holding it. The water's moving as I'm keeping it. I'm setting people up with the angle to make that cast. What's their cast like? What's their distance? And where do I have to position the boat? And what angle do I have to use so they can make that cast where I think that fish is? So all of that's going on at one time and very few takes happen right at the boat or right at your feet.
Katie
I got it.
George
So you see what I'm saying? So statistically, you're going to catch more fish, you're going to have more action by keeping that fly in the water and letting it flutter. Now keep in mind though, when I say I'm fishing six feet off the bank, I'm doing a strip, strip, flutter, strip, strip, flutter. You see what I'm saying? that pause of my voice right there is the pause of the fish and that fly is just hovering and it's just kicking. It's just sitting there and strip, strip. I don't figure eight. To me it's like with a fly rod, it's too difficult and I just don't want to break rods.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like with such a long rod, you end up kind of sticking half the thing down in the water, whereas a spin rod, if it's really short, you might only have the top foot of it down in the water.
George
Yeah, so most fly fishermen don't figure eight with it. Some try to. Most do a big oval with it, or they just kind of flip it out there again, just flip it out ten feet and let it flutter and kick again right where that fish is sitting. So I prefer to just keep that fly in the water as long as possible. I've got videos up on my Instagram, if you scroll back in, where I'm catching pike right at my feet. It's unbelievable. Super cool. It does happen. Don't get me wrong. But when you're in the raft and we got eight hours to float and you're floating down a river, you got to just keep that fly, keep it moving, keep it in the water.
Katie
I think one thing I may have been overlooking was the idea that you're in a moving boat. Because I think a lot of times when I picture figure 8, I'm picturing somebody on a lake. And then I think it maybe has more merit because you can take your time. You know, if you want to figure 8 for a minute, you're not leaving the spot that you're trying to fish. You can just sit there and figure 8 as long as you want. And you're not, you might not be super productive, but you're at the end of the day not really ruining anything. Whereas if you're moving past an area, I could see wanting to get as many casts as possible into the red zone, let's say. And if you're wasting all your time on a low percentage chance that a pike is going to take it on that figure eight, then you potentially have missed all the water that was going to be holding pike and/or making your arms go numb from rowing constantly and keep them in the same spot.
George
Exactly. Well, so pike and muskie are different. So obviously they're related fish. They can mate and they produce a tiger muskie, but their eating patterns are super different. So pike will almost always eat there. They'll just reactionary strike, eat, they'll, when they're hungry, they're eating. When they're not hungry, they're eating. It's crazy. It doesn't matter. They're just absolutely crazy. Where musky are different. Musky eat and they gorge themselves and they sit and digest and they do not eat. They'll go for, some people say they go for days or a week without eating. I've heard people say that musky eat once a week and that's it. I've heard people say they eat once a day and that's it. I've seen it though. In fact, I walked into a musky two weeks ago in clear water and he was sitting behind a bunch of suckers and I saw him and I threw that fly at that fish. He wasn't big, he was a 30 inch musky. I was telling my buddies about him and he would not take, would not take, did not matter. I made him twitch a couple times at it, but he wouldn't take. And I just know he's digesting. My buddy and I ran into a massive, massive four-foot muskie, huge, on the river last year. Lots of things. I've got a video of me walking up right to its tail. Wouldn't move. Because it was just sitting there digesting. Where pike are different. They eat smaller fish. They just they're more opportunistic. I think they'll always come back for it. If you're fishing for a bike and your trout set it on accident or the fish whiffs or whatever, you come right back at that same fish he's going to take. I've had a pike take five different times. Yeah, they're crazy. They're crazy fish.
Katie
When you're doing that strip-strip pause, how big are the strips you're taking? Is this like a kind of a full body motion or these you know I'm picturing from the range of sometimes with trout you're just pulling your fingers and obviously that's probably not what you're doing for pike but you know strip strip paws can mean very different things depending on which side of the spectrum you're on with the strip strip so like tell me what like an average strip strip pause like length and length of pause are
George
That’s a good question I actually teach that a lot when I'm on the boat so when I get when I get really good fish on good fly fishermen right that's that's what I know we're gonna game on we're going to have a great day. And I'll just, I'll work with them a little bit about some concepts. That's one of the concepts I work on actually. So I'm very similar to like the saltwater guys where there's strip and then there's ticks, right? So for me a strip is, you know, 8 to 12 inches of line. And what I always say is, is we're gonna strip it, we're gonna strip it out and to the left at a 90 degree angle if you're right handed. So whether, just let's just say you're stripping hand, right? So your stripping hand is always going to go out to the left on a 90 degree angle rather than straight back. If you're going to go straight back to your hip, to your holster, that more than likely that fish is going to work more of a straight line. You run that, you run that strip out 90 degrees to your left and that fly is going to kick. And when it kicks, it can kick up to a foot to the left or to the right or whatever, but super cool. So when I strip, strip, flutter, or usually it's, it'll be if there's a hot fish, if I know there's a pike there and he's maybe he came up and and whiffed or missed it or circled on it, you know, go back at it again. I'll strip, strip, strip, flutter, you know, where it's boom, boom, boom, one, two, three. but generally it's just one, two flutter, one, two flutter, let it sit and usually on the flutter that's when they're going to take it and hit and that's where you got to strip set your line. Now, but ticks are a different deal. So the ticks are, let's say make a cast from 30, 40 feet, it's sitting, the fly's in a pocket and I want that fly to sit there for a few minutes. You know, I'm on yours. And I want that fly to just sit there. I don't want it to go anywhere yet because I wanted to drop a little bit. I wanted to get a little bit deeper down into the water column. And so I'll tell my clients don't do anything. Don't do anything. Let it sit. Let it sit. Okay, now tick it. Tick. And that's just a little four inch tick, you know. And and that's just tick it. Just give it some life. And that little tick will just make that fly just kind of kind of move just kind of sit in one spot but move. And I'll say tick it, take it, take it, and sometimes we'll just get a blow up right there. Or sometimes I'll say, okay, now strip it, now strip it. And we're just trying to create action. We're trying to create motion, movements in the water. These are predator fish. These are not human beings. They want to go eat that thing. They want to kill it. You know, they are, you got to make it come alive, you know. So whether it's the frog pattern or whether it's the, it's the streamer, you have to make it come alive. And the way you make it come alive is by how the fly is designed, the construction, and also how you strip and make that fly sink.
Katie
We've talked a couple times about the fly sinking and letting the fly get down to where it needs to be. And you also talked about the wire leader and how that's going to help it get down. Is there much weight on the fly itself to help it get down? Because with all the feathers and the size of the fly, it looks like something that if you just toss it out, it might just kind of float on the water for a bit before it actually gets waterlogged and goes under. Is there like some weight on the fly to kind of counteract the buoyancy of all the feathers on it?
George
No, no. They're weightless, you know. So I would say like, you know, I know the audience can't see it here, but like here's one. This is an orange head fly that tapers down to and it's kind of a green underbelly with some flash in it with some hackle feathers built in as like lateral lines and so this fly right here it really comes down to the to the materials but I like to use a head like this is crapper head that absorbs a little bit more water than then then bucktail or like a synthetic material that's made out of squimpish here. And the headway if it fills up with a little bit more water, that's going to give you more kick. So what I like to do is I like to combine my flies with tails that are less absorbent and I work my way to a head that's more absorbent of water. And that's what really gives you the good kick from left to right when you're stripping. So the weight, there's no weight added to my flies. And rather than weighting the fly, I'd prefer to use a shorter leader and a sink tip. So when I'm using a sink tip, now I'm going to shrink my leaders down significantly. Now for pike and muskie, I'm using a four foot leader and sometimes I'll go straight 60 pound, straight 50 pound, 60, 50. And that is it. Nothing. I've never had a pike or a musky bite through 50 pound. I know guys have though, but I've never had 50 pound fluoro carbon. So you don't have to have the bite wire, but bite wire does give you some peace of mind that you're going to land that fish.
Katie
Now, is the shorter leader with the sink tip just because you don't need that extra leader material to allow the fly to sink?
George
Exactly. Yes, exactly. Because now you're relying on the sinking tip to do the work for you. And so you want to shrink that down because you don't want the tip sinking at a faster rate than the fly itself. So if you were to use a nine-foot leader with a sink tip, the tip's going to be sinking, but it's not going to bring the fly down because you have to wait for the entire leader to drag down with the fly line. So yeah, even when I'm swinging flies, and I do a lot of spade casting as well, so when I'm spade casting, or I guess I use a Skagit head, so Skagit casting for steelhead and salmon, people don't realize that's only a three foot leader off that. That's it. Three foot and then you're tier five. That's all you need. So but you really have to, you know, imply fishing leader construction is really, really important. I'll have clients show up who they want, you know, many of them want to use their own rods, which is great. I want them to. But the but I'll have to build them a leader, you know, and they're always fascinated by the leader, you know, because they never think of it. I'm like, "Yeah, man, the leader's got to match the fly. He's got to match the rod." So if all those things aren't in congruence, you're gonna... something's not gonna be right. You know, when I have people that are flopping flies or... something's just not going right with their cast. Usually, if they have decent fundamentals, it's usually the leader.
Katie
Now, one kind of final question, just thinking of someone who has maybe never caught a pike before. It's a little, it could be a little interesting when you first get one in, especially if you're used to something like trout. You know, they're very, very slippery. It's hard to get a good grip on them. And they've obviously got a mouthful of teeth and they're not happy. So do you have any instances of getting chomped or have any advice for somebody who's just landed their first pike and is like, "Now what do I do?"
George
Yeah, for sure. I do. I talk about this and I teach this a lot, actually. clients that they want to obviously hold their own fish, they want to release it, they want to take the hook out. Well first of all, it starts with a proper hook set. Okay, so the number one way that you will lose fish is trout setting. So you know in warm water species, in saltwater, if you trout set you're gonna lose fish. You need a strip set. So strip that fly right to your hole, I call it your holster, you right to your hip. Strip it hard. You know, when you feel that hit, you strip. If you trout set, you're gonna lose the fish more than likely. And so, first get a good strip set. The second thing is recognize the actual strike. Don't wait. Once it strikes, you've got a strip set right away. If you wait, that fly is gonna get deep into his mouth, maybe into its gills, and you know, and now, you know, we're digging for the fly, and we don't wanna do that. The other thing is I only use one hook flies. I know that a lot of people tie on a stinger fly, or stinger hook, or that have two hook flies. I don't, because when I'm pike fishing, that stinger hook will often... Back in the day, I used to... They would get stuck in their gills, that would, you know, it was just terrible for the fish. And so when you have one hook, even if it gets deep in its mouth, you're going to be okay 99% of the time. But you have to have, I would say the next thing you have to have is a good set of pliers, needle nose pliers, and you have to have jaw spreaders. There will be times where that fly gets deep into the mouth of the pike. You can't reach it with your, you know, with your pliers. and you have to spread the jaws. Some people think it's barbaric and I get it. It does not look pretty, but you still have a chance to save that fish when that happens. And I'll tell you, I've had fish where I've had to spread them and get that fly out safely and those fish are fine. They fish, they swim away like it was nothing ever happened, get them right in the water again. But you have to have those tools and it's safer for you and safer for the fish. The other thing I would say is I don't usually net pike. So once, pike have big teeth and lots of teeth. And if you have a rubber net, you'll be okay. But if you don't, don't net them with some kind of a nylon net because those teeth, the hook, it's going to get wrapped around and that's when it can be dangerous for you and the fish. So I tend to not net them at all. I bring them to me, bring them to the boat, or bring it to my feet, and I just say let it thrash out. When you think a pike is thrashed out, they always have one more thrash in them. So I'll kind of tickle their belly a little bit, give them a thrash, you know, and they'll thrash out one more time, and then they'll settle down. Well, once they settle down, we want to get that hook out of them obviously. So there's two ways you can grab a pike. You can grab a pike right behind the ears, right on top of the head, and turn them over on their belly and the combination of those two things will kind of paralyze that fish and now you can do a safe, you know, hook release. Don't squeeze too hard but just kind of grab them behind the ears. But pike, a lot of right underneath their, it's not in their gills at all, you know, it's right underneath their chin, and you go in front of the gills, and you don't even touch the gills, I never come near the gills at all, and you run a finger up into that membrane, and the finger ends up underneath its lower jaw, and if you put a finger up into that membrane, and now de-hook it, you can safely grab the fish with with your other hand and hold it up for a photograph or a clean release and a clean release in the water. And that fish is absolutely safe and fine. And so that's the proper way to hold and to manage a pike. You do not want your fingers being near the mouth of that fish. So if you're in that membrane with your fingers, you're in good shape, the fish will be in good shape. If that fish wants to thrash on you, just let it go. Let it go. A couple of days ago, I caught a fish that I kind of held it up and I was looking at it as a cool fish and started thrashing. I just did this, just dropped my hands. And she flopped in front of me and swam away. Only because I don't want to hurt her. And I don't want to get hurt as well. Those teeth are pretty big. So I would say those are the keys to properly handling and managing a pike or a muskie. And so if you do those things, you'll be in good shape.
Katie
Great. Well, George, is there anything that you think we should have covered that I didn't ask about? Like anything that if someone's going out pike fishing for the first time or wants to get better at it, that is just kind of like a good piece of advice they should know?
George
Yeah, I would say one of the things is just handling them properly, like we talked about being safe, they can be dangerous. I've cut my hand up pretty darn good. I mean really good on some of those teeth so be careful with that. I'd say the other thing is be careful on some of the rivers that you're fishing for pike because pike will live in rivers that are often slower moving. They'll be in rivers that might be a little bit more mucky, a little more muck bottom. So if you're waiting, be careful. God knows I've fallen in over my head more times than I can count, and chasing these fish. And just keep that fly in the water. If something looks fishy, if it looks like a fish would live there, structure of some kind, or a real nice eddy, a slow-moving eddy, or a high bank cast to it because more than likely there's going to be a fish there if you're in pike water.
Katie
Okay. Well, just to wrap up, where can people find you? If they want to book a trip with you, if they want to find you on Instagram or your website, where can they find you?
George
Yeah. Thanks, Katie. So my business is called In The Flow Fly Fishing and I'm in Lake Geneva, That's in southeast Wisconsin. It's a vacation community that is kind of right in the middle between Milwaukee and Chicago. And I fish everything from smallmouth bass, pike, musky, trout, and the driftless to steelhead, browns, and salmon in the tributaries of Lake Michigan. And so you can go to my website website at intheflowflyfishing.com. On Instagram, my personal Instagram is Zivio51. And my Instagram for the business is @intheflowflyfishing. And same thing on Facebook for both of those. On Instagram, I post all my guide pictures on the business Instagram and Facebook, my personal pictures and flies. If you're interested in fly construction and flies, I do put a lot of flies up on my own page as well. I enjoy the photography and the tying aspect of that as well. So yeah, find me there. And I know I get a lot of questions. You asked me earlier, Katie, what is zivio or zivio? actually pronounced zhi-vi-oh and it's my family's Croatian and so it's zivio means means to life kind of like a cheers and then 51 was my little brother's football member and he passed away four years ago so so yeah so that's it come and look me up and and let's let's talk fishing let's get on the river
Katie
yeah I can attest to the fact that you've got a good Instagram account that's how I found you and I was trying to think like I want to talk about Pike but like I don't really know anyone I was like no I think there's somebody I followed that is always posting pike pictures so I like searched through until I found you I was like that's it so I can attest to the fact that you do have a lot of awesome pike content both video and photographs so people just check you out and hopefully if I ever end up in your neck of the woods maybe you can show me around the pike up there because like I told you before we started recording if if we weren't tied to the mountains I think your neck of the woods would be where we might want to go
George
yeah super cool Wisconsin's awesome it It really is. I gotta tell you, in terms of fishing goes, as far as the amount of species and seasons that we have, it's a 12 month a year deal. It's got everything you can ask for. It's pretty cool.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I will let you get on with your evening, but thank you so much for walking me through Pike 101, and hopefully you have some good luck on the water coming up.
George
Yeah, super thanks Katie. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
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