Ep 183: Backcountry Fishing and Podcasting, with Ross Izard
Ross Izard is the host of the Backcountry Fly Fishing Podcast and an avid backcountry angler in Colorado. In this episode, we talk about what he counts as “backcountry,” the eerie feeling of being far from help, what would constitute his perfect day on the water, alpine lakes vs. streams, and his experiences as a podcaster.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 183 with Ross Izard on backcountry fishing and podcasting. Hey, everybody. Just wanted to hop in quickly and make a quick announcement before the show. We are rapidly approaching flyathlon season. And for those who aren't familiar with the flyathlon, it is a super fun race that happens a couple times each year. And it's based around running, fishing and drinking beer, which are three of my favorite things. And if you'd like to hear more about the race, you can listen to episode one of the Fish Untamed podcast, where I interviewed Andrew Todd, the founder of the flyathlon. You can also check out episode 9 with Katie Mazzia and episode 121 where I catch up with Andrew Todd a second time. But in addition to being a really fun weekend with a lot of fun people, the Flyathon is also a fundraiser to raise money for native cutthroat trout conservation. So if you have a couple extra dollars that you would be interested in donating to a great cause to support native cutthroat trout, go ahead and head over to my website, fishuntamed.com, And you'll find a menu at the top called Flyathlon Fundraiser. That link should take you to the fundraiser and you can donate there. I do want to mention that Running Rivers, the organization that hosts the Flyathlon, is a 501c3 organization and all donations are tax deductible. And any amount is greatly appreciated. This would be a great way to support the show and also support a wonderful cause for native trout. So that's all I've got for you and we can get on with the show. All right. Well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got introduced to the outdoors and into fly fishing. So I would love to hear how you got started in the sport.
Ross
Yeah. So I grew up in Colorado. I spent a lot of time outside when I was a kid, but it was sort of casual outside time. I went to summer camp. I spin fished. I would go to like Cherry Creek Reservoir and hope for the best and maybe catch a sunfish or something out of there. Spent some time at Boy Scout camp, things like that. And it was it was fine. It was great. But then I went to college and I sort of got out of it for a while. I got busy. Life got crazy. And I got away from it for a little bit. And then I actually sort of came back to it. I had like an outdoor renaissance in my late 20s when I went on a work trip up to Jackson Hole. We were supposed to do a float down the Snake River up there fishing for cutthroat. And I got signed up for it. I hadn't been fly fishing since I was. boy, I don't know, maybe like 13 or 14. I used to do it a little bit when I was a kid with my father. And we went up and we hopped in the boat. I didn't really think much of it other than it was a work thing. And my job was to schmooze these guys who were in the boat and just wound up having like one of the best days of my life. So came back from that and was like, man, I really got to get back out there. So bought all the stuff, started doing everything I needed to do to get back into it. I was absolutely awful at it for a long time. I mean, I'd like comically terrible. It was, I looked back on that and I'm like, I can't believe that I kept after it, but I did. Um, eventually started figuring it out, then started doing more and more remote stuff, hiking and backpacking and everything else. And, now, you know, a decade later, it's become a, I guess just a part of my life and maybe a little bit of a mental illness, but that's okay too.
Katie
What draws you to the backcountry or what drew you to the back country initially starting to go like more remote, like you said?
Ross
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a combination of not really wanting to be around a ton of other people, combat fishing is not really my, my deal, right? That's getting harder and harder to avoid that on the front range. Uh, but then the other thing is, I just have a very low attention span. I think I've got like a, a part of my brain that really needs novelty. And so, you know, it's not, it shows up in other parts of my life, but I think it shows up most clearly in fly fishing. Cause it's like, you can go and I love exploring a stream and picking it apart or a lake and learning everything there is to learn about it. And I think there's like a fork there where some people decide that they just want to keep doing what they know. They've learned the river. They have this sort of intimate relationship with the water there and they're going to keep after it. And that's fine. I respect it. I just get bored. I'm like, okay, I know that rock and I know that run and I know that fish lives over there and I've seen it all. And now I want to go see something more interesting. And so I started looking into places that were further out. Those required hikes started doing a lot more hiking. And the more of that you do, the more into it you get, the further out you want to go. And then one day you wake up and you're climbing off trail up the side of a mountain to some lake that doesn't have a name and hoping that there are fish in it. So it's been kind of a natural progression that for me is, to be honest, it's really more about the place than the fish. I mean, some of these places that I go to, I will fish, obviously, and I'd like to catch a fish. But it really, you know, I catch a fish or two, and you're like, cool. And then I want to take pictures, because it's really about seeing a place that not a lot of people have seen before and experiencing something that I haven't experienced before, which is really special. That's kind of the heart of the sport for me.
Katie
I absolutely feel that. All of the reasons you gave are the same reasons. I love the backcountry, mostly being away from people. But I feel the same thing where it's like, I can only catch, you know, not that it's not fun to catch a ton of fish, but, you know, after you've caught like the 10th brook trout out of the same like run, it's like, okay, I could see something different now.
Ross
Yeah. I mean, let's be real. You can go to a stream that you know really well and that you've learn and you can catch 50 fish a day or more. Right. And that's, that's cool. Right. And you can go brag to your friends and you can have your fish counter and click your fish in and when that's fine, but eventually who cares, right? Like there's no challenge in it. It's just sort of a, if you're doing something that you've done a hundred times before, and if you get comfort from that, then great. Uh, but I gotta, I gotta go do something, something new. I got to explore.
Katie
Were you into hiking, backpacking, stuff like that before fishing or did fishing kind of get you into doing all that stuff?
Ross
I was. I mean, I went to college in Boulder and there was a lot of hiking and outdoor stuff up there. So I did quite a bit of hiking, quite a bit of backpacking back in those days. I did a lot of skiing, did a lot of outdoor stuff during that period, but really none of it was fishing focused and it was all fairly casual, right? It's like you're going with friends and you're going to go camp out and have a couple of beers or whatever. So like that went on. I didn't really get seriously into it until I started doing backcountry fly fishing. And by Seriously, I mean, having to do it in a way that is professional and competent enough that you won't die in bad places, right? Especially because I tend to go by myself. And the way that I camped and backpacked when I was younger would not work out well with what I'm doing now. So it kind of forced me, I think, to get better at it and more serious about it. And it's the same activity, but it's a totally different level of the sport, I think, at this stage.
Katie
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I did a lot of hiking and a little bit of backpacking before I got into fishing, well, fly fishing, like backcountry fly fishing. But I find that if I don't have something at the end waiting for me, I get a little bit like, why am I out here? And maybe that's like unhealthy. Like maybe I should just, you know, enjoy the act of being outside and walking through the woods. But I always am just a lot more motivated to go when I feel like there's something to do beyond just being there and having a destination at the end of places. Like a lot of people need a summit, but what's nice about fishing is you don't need a summit. You just need like a stream along the way or a lake at the end to go to, which opens up a lot more trails that a lot of people might be like, eh, you know, it's just a trail along a stream. I'm like, what's the trail along a stream? That's fantastic.
Ross
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know, I mean, listen, there's nothing wrong with climbing 14ers. I think that's awesome. And I've done that. And I've certainly been on many, many hikes where the payoff is a huge vista or a pretty meadow or some wildflowers. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm with you. I want to have a, I need to have a goal, a thing that I'm going to do when I get there. And the fishing really helps with that. And it's kind of funny because you, it almost inverts the normal hiking order. Like most hikers, like you said, have summit fever and they got to get to the top of the mountain and they want to take their picture with the summit sign. Like Brad, dude, that's fine. I, some of the hardest days I have are trying to get way down into a canyon or a valley that doesn't have a trail, right? Where nobody's heard of it. It's hemmed in by trees on all sides. There is no big Vista and the payoff. I mean, yeah, it's just a stream full of brook trout or cutthroat or whatever it happens to be, but the payoff is that you figured out how to get in there, which is kind of the puzzle and the fun for me. So, which is, I mean, I still do high alpine lakes. I spend a lot of time doing what I would consider to be mountaineering of a, of a sort, I guess. But yeah, I mean, I want to, I want to know that there are fish up there. And in fact, it's kind of a joke among my friends, because they'll sometimes say, you know, we're going to go climb this mountain and they'll ask me if I want to go. And I do usually say yes in my defense, but everybody at some point, somebody in the group is going to be like, I don't know. There's no fish up there. I don't know if he's going to come. And I do think about it, you know, because I like the process.
Katie
It's a good way to convince someone though, too, and be like, well, there's fish on the way, you know?
Ross
Well, that's well, then you wind up doing really crazy stuff, right? You start hearing rumors about fish that might be in a lake. Like I, a couple summers ago was hiking up to a lake that was rumored to have some accidental golden trout in it that weren't supposed to be there, but it was in the middle of nowhere. Nobody knows how to get to it. You don't know if the fish are actually there. I hiked up and they were there, which was awesome, but equally often I will hike up to a lake and there's nothing up there, but salamanders the size of small dogs, right? There's nothing left in the lake. And I like, does it suck? Sure. But also cool. I still went up there. I still set up my rod. I still scoped out the water, answered the question, that's a good day.
Katie
Yeah. I think based on what you just said, I think I know the answer to this, but do you, do you prefer to have a little bit of mystery when you go somewhere? Do you like to know like, Hey, I'm expecting to catch, you know, this size of this species and you're, you're, you're kind of hoping, you know, what you're going to get when you get there.
Ross
I mean, whenever possible I'd like to, well, there are different types of information, right? So like, do I want to know that the lake is not frozen anymore? Yes, for Absolutely. I'm checking satellite images for that. If I can know that there are actually fish in it. Yeah. You know, I would like to know that same with streams, right? Because there are a lot of streams that for various reasons have fluctuating fish populations. So if I can know that for sure, there's going to be fish there. Cool. I would like to know that. But beyond that, I don't really care. I mean, I, you know, people that go and hunt for lakes that have massive cutthroat in them. I mean, I've caught huge cutthroat out of tiny lakes that aren't supposed to have them. And I've had hundreds or thousands of days where I catch little eight inch brook trout or 10 inch cutthroat all day long. And I'm perfectly happy with that, too. So I'm not I'm really not looking for anything specific. I don't need big fish. I don't necessarily need a specific type of fish. I just would like to go up and enjoy a new piece of water and sort of learn what I can about it while I'm there.
Katie
Yeah, I agree. I would definitely like to I would like to know that there's fish there before I go. Not that that always happens. And sometimes it's out of date information that say there's fish there. But that's something I kind of like about guidebooks as opposed to like internet research is, you know, a guidebook will tell you that there, you know, there were fish somewhere. But that was a snapshot in time, you know, maybe 10 years ago. And I kind of like the mystery of, OK, I know there should be fish there in theory if they haven't all died off. But I don't know if that's the case and I don't know if they've changed since then. So it's like you've got enough to go off to not hear that it's just completely dead. But it's it's so long ago that like things can change in 10 years. You have no idea what's going to be there now. And I kind of like that. What's it going to be? It's almost like opening a present that you don't know what's inside. That excitement is kind of alluring to me.
Ross
For sure. Although sometimes you get a lump of coal, right? So this last summer, there was a lake that I've been reading about in a actually in a guidebook for years. And the book is 20 years old. It's a lake that sits off in the middle of wilderness area way up in the mountains. I've never found another account of another person fishing it. I think maybe there have been some mountain goat hunters up there that have found their way to the lake. but I've never heard of anybody other than this specific guy fishing it. And he had laid out a route, how to get up there. And I went out and I scouted it and his route was insane. So I'm like, that's not going to work. And I had to go back and find a different route. Anyway, it was a long process, right? Years of thinking and then months of planning to get up to this lake. And I finally went up there and he had said it was the best brook trout fishing he'd ever had in Colorado. He was catching these like insane, you know, 18 inch brookies out of this lake in the book, but it was 20 years ago. And I finally figured out a route. I go up there. The climb was nuts and not safe on a whole bunch of different levels. It was just a crazy experience. And I get all the way up there and you finally see the lake. And I got one look at it and I was like, oh, it's it's gone because it has shrunk back from the shoreline enough. You can tell that it's not deep enough to sustain ice in the winter. It's like 12, 8. So, you know, it's frozen. And I'm like, that's winter killed for sure. I went down and I fished it. And sure enough, there's nothing in there, you know. So whatever he was seeing 20 years ago, it's not the case now, which is a bummer, but also incredible place, right? So I just walked around and appreciated the water and took some pictures and put it in the logbook and I'll never go back. But hey, I was there. That counts for something.
Katie
Still a fun adventure at the end of the day. And I always feel like it sounds like you do too. You kind of, you know, log what you did. And I have a very minimal journal of where I've gone and what was there in case I ever want to go back. But everything I learn is a piece of data that I don't need to get in the future. So now you know. Now you got that adventure, but you don't need to go back. It is interesting that a lake so remote like that had brook trout in it. I mean, they were obviously put there. So for such a remote off-the-beaten-path lake that no one's going to, I wonder why they had brook trout. Was there mining in the area back in the day that they were stocking for food?
Ross
uh that's an interesting question I not really there wasn't a ton of mining in that area it is along a trail that was traditionally used for logging and some other activities so maybe but this lake sat up on this insane alpine shelf at the top of a mountain that there's no real reason for anybody to ever go up there and I think some of that comes down to the way that the stocking programs worked back in the day so you know I am consistently surprised no offense to Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But early on in the stocking programs, I think that they sort of just indiscriminately bombed a lot of these lakes with various species, usually cutthroat, but not always cutthroat, sometimes brook trout, sometimes people for whatever reason that I can't come up with, hike buckets of fish up to these lakes just because they thought it would be fun. I don't know, but I'm consistently surprised by lakes that have almost no name. They're on a map, but nobody's ever really been there, but for whatever reason, they have fish in them. And I wish I had the history skills to dig back into why that is, but I don't. And this one in any case is dead now. So whatever was there is long gone.
Katie
I'm not going to ask you the name of the lake, but do you happen to remember the name of the book that you found it in? I feel like there's only a handful of these books and I wouldn't be surprised if I own it. So I'm just curious.
Ross
Yeah. It's called Lost Lakes and Secret Places, I think, in Colorado. Colorado's Lost Lakes and secret places. I can't remember the office. You should check it out. There's some really good stuff. Now, some of the stuff that he gets into is like, it's humbling even for me, right? Like I feel like I do a lot of what I would consider to be serious back country stuff. And some of the things that this guy was getting into are, are, I mean, genuinely insane. And I've there have been a couple where I've read and I'm like, I don't know, man, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm going to do that. Um, but he has a lot of really interesting information and a lot of really cool stories about where he's been. Like I said, it's old. I don't even know if still alive. It's probably 20 years old. I'll send it to you after the fact and you can drop the book in the show notes if you want. But it's just a cool log of where he's been and whatever instructions he's saved up over the years. It's a pretty fun read.
Katie
Yeah, like I said, I love the fact that books are kind of like a, they're a time capsule of how things were at a certain time, but they're also kind of an insight into the person who wrote them. Some of them are, I have like a bunch of well-known spots and that's great. And then others are just like what somebody felt like checking out And, you know, that's just their collected life's data and what they chose to write down about it. And it's just, I don't know, it's an interesting peek into kind of somebody's fishing career in the backcountry.
Ross
Yeah, there's a lot of psychology to that, too. I mean, there are different types of fly fishers, just like there's different types of all sorts of different people. But it's always interesting. And I connect the most with the writers and the anglers who will pull out a map and sit down with the map and be like, OK, I want to know what that looks like and what that looks like and what how do I get into this thing over here and sort of plan it out that way, which is how I plan most of my summers. I pick a wilderness area, I lay out a map, and then I start making plans for where I'm going to go and how I want to get there. As opposed to sort of the inverse of that, like you said, where it's, you know, you're going to well-known spots. You want to kind of have all the information. You want it to be relatively low stakes, relatively low effort, because maybe you have limited time or you help it. I mean, whatever. I'm not judging anybody for how they choose to fish. But the guys who are writing the books that are about exploration and discovery and research and planning, that's kind of where my head is too. And so I find myself kind of gravitating toward those types of authors, partially because I like to use the information they have out there. And partially because it's just kind of cool to read about other people who feel the same way and are equally unhealthy.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like the best case scenario is a route that includes some lakes or streams that you know have fish. Like, but then there's some others that are like off the trail nearby that it's like, okay, I can kind of guarantee I'm going to catch something. But once I've got that under my belt, I don't care anymore. Like now it's a free for all. And if I don't catch a single other fish, it's fine. And I can go check out these little like tarns and ponds and little stream tributaries coming off and just see what's in them. And if there's nothing that it's like, I don't, I don't feel like I wasted my time going out there because I've already gotten, you know, a couple under my belt at the, at the known location.
Ross
For sure. I mean, once you put one fish in the net, you caught a fish, right? And after that, it's all just gravy. So I agree completely.
Katie
What do you consider backcountry for your purposes? Is it about like how far you are from civilization? Is it just like feeling alone out there? Do you have kind of a, you know, in your mind when you picture backcountry, what is that for you?
Ross
Yeah, so that's a good question. I did an episode about that a while back and kind of struggled with the definition a little bit because people ask that. They're like, well, is this backcountry? Is this backcountry? The truth is it doesn't really matter, right? Like you can call it backcountry if you want. You can call it whatever you want. It doesn't matter if you like it. I am my general take on backcountry is it's not necessarily distance, but it's level of remoteness as measured by the type of equipment that you need. So if you're going fishing and you're not going to be able to do that without also carrying food and camping gear and backpacking gear and safety gear and all that kind of stuff, chances are pretty good that you're doing something that looks like backcountry. Right. You could make an argument that if you're doing something that requires serious hiking gear. So it's not something that you can do in, you know, sneakers that you wore around in the city earlier in the day. Probably backcountry enough to count as backcountry, right? And similarly, though, in some cases, you're not hiking at all. Like I've done serious backcountry stuff that's just a gnarly like six hour four wheel drive road into the middle of nowhere in the truck that barely makes it. And you're fishing five feet from where you parked, but you nearly died 18 times getting there on the drive. So that counts, too. And I guess it, you know, sometimes I'll get into a debate. People come and send me a DM on Instagram or they'll come talk to me on Reddit. And they're like, ah, you know, that's not really backcountry. And you're like, I mean, okay, that's fine. Or sometimes they'll put in something and be like, the other day I hiked half a mile into this thing. And it was the craziest backcountry experience you've ever had. And like for me, would I consider that to be true backcountry fly fishing? Probably not. But hey, you were out there by yourself. For you, it was exploration. You had to do a little bit of work to get into it. And I think one of the baselines is, was there effort involved?
Katie
Yeah.
Ross
Planning and just access effort. And if that's how it feels for you, then rad, dude, that's fine with me.
Katie
Yeah. As far as the driving a four-by-four road out in the middle of nowhere, in some ways, that feels almost more risky to me. Because if I walk somewhere on my own two feet in half a day and get somewhere, say, I hike five miles in, I can turn around and walk that out barring an injury. But even then, I'm probably going to be on a trail with people. I'm probably going to see somebody if I need help. Some of those roads I've been back on, I'm like, if my car broke down right now, the fact that I was in a car allowed me to get way farther back than I can cover on foot in a day. And if I don't have like overnight gear with me, I'm like, if my car broke down back here, I'm like 20 miles back. It might not be as simple as just turning around and walking back out today. So some of those almost feel more, I guess, like eerie or risky when you're out there. Because you're just like, I am way far away from anywhere I could get on my own two feet right now.
Ross
yeah for sure and that means that you're further away from help too right and I think that that feeling that you described is kind of if I had a personal internal metric of like okay now this is real backcountry it's that that vibe that you just described where you're like okay now i'm into something where I can't easily extricate myself there may or may not be help readily available I might get stuck something could happen that sort of little ping or jitter is sort of my clue that like what I'm doing at that point is no longer just recreational out having a good time. Now it's a real thing that I need to think about. And I know what you mean. I mean, I broke my truck three times in the last two years on various backcountry roads, breaking axles and popping tires. And it's a, it's a, it's a real thing. I mean, four by four stuff is, I'm not a serious four by four. I'm not a rock climber or a rock crawler or whatever. But I've been on enough of those roads with my heart rate, you know, at like 130 to know that it's, it's serious stuff for sure.
Katie
Well, I think the people who do that recreationally are probably in a much better place mentally about it because they usually go in groups. They have like, their hobby is that. So they've got all the equipment for it. It's like, if you get a flat tire, it's kind of like a fun project for the group to take care of before you keep moving on. And for us, it's like, we're going out there because we want to go fishing. I'm like, I'm not, I have some basic safety gear, but you know, getting out of a sticky situation in the middle of nowhere is not like what I'm out there for. That's, that's not the fun part for me. So that part is still, yeah, a little like unsettling.
Ross
For sure. Yeah. Um, I, and I, I mean, I hear you. I don't want to get myself into a bad situation either. It's not why I'm there either, but I also think that it's, uh, the further out you go, particularly if you're going by yourself, the more realistic you have to be about the fact that something could happen. Right. And like I've fallen on random scree fields and nearly broken my leg and tripped or got a thunderstorm or whatever might have happened over the course of the years of doing this enough times that you're like, it doesn't take a lot for it to go off track. Right. And once you're really far out there and nobody's coming and you're by yourself, like you better, you better know what to do, or you're going to be somebody who shows up on the news. And I would, I would rather not be that guy. So, you know, it's kind of ridiculous. You're out there to fly fish and you're carrying emergency gear and a medical kid and overnight stuff in case you need it and a little bit of extra food and satellite devices. But that's part of it, you know, because it can turn from a fun fishing trip into something kind of scary pretty, pretty quick. And I've been there before.
Katie
What do you take in terms of, you know, safety gear? I mean, I don't need to cover things like first aid kit, but, you know, stuff like satellite devices, stuff like that. What things do you take to prevent serious things?
Ross
Yeah. So I actually, I carry a full trauma kit. It's not a big one. It's relatively small, but I carry a full trauma kit. I've gone through wilderness medicine courses on how to handle all of that stuff. Uh, not because I expect to ever run into a problem personally, I could, but also because you could run into somebody out there who's had an issue. Uh, I heard somebody tell me at one point, a wilderness medic, the most common fly fishing injury that he sees in the back country is impalement. People that fall and get impaled on a tree branch or a piece of metal or something sharp, which is a pretty serious injury. There are other people that will break a leg or have a bleeding incident, whatever. So I carry a full trauma kit that deals with all that stuff, splints and tourniquets and everything else if I were to ever need it. Probably I never will, right? The most I've ever pulled out of there is a pair of scissors and some gauze for a nasty cut that I got with the hatchet on my hand. But you never know. So I carry all that stuff with me. I always have water filters with me no matter where I go. I think there's a tendency of folks to just assume that, you know, I'm going to carry my water bottle or my two or three liter camel back in there and I'll be fine. You don't know that, right? You could get stuck out there overnight. You don't want to be making choices between drinking raw stream water or going thirsty. I always carry a little bit of extra food. Then I always carry the very basics of a shelter if I needed one. So I have an emergency blanket. I have some paracord. I have some extra clothing. I've got a fire starter. I've got a battery pack. I've got a whistle. I've got a compass, all the kinds of stuff that you had, usually a paper map if I needed to, all the stuff that you would need if stuff went really, really sideways. Now, does it ever go really, really sideways? No, I mean, there are probably two or three experiences in my life where it's gotten close to that. But having it with me is, for me, my level of feeling like I'm not being irresponsible, right? Because like, I have a family, I have kids, and it's like, I don't want to be like, well, I'm just going to go out there and hope for the best. And I'll see y'all on Tuesday, right? Like, I want to know that if something happens, I'll be able to get back. And to that end, I do also carry a garment in reach. I actually had Garmin on the show a while back to talk about it just as a way to stay in touch both for if something were to happen to me in the middle of nowhere but also so I know what's going on back home and I've had incidents where something happens with a family member and I'm you know halfway up a mountain in the middle of nowhere and I get a text it's like such and such is going to the hospital so well I better I better turn around and pack back down so I always have that with me as well and that doubles as navigation equipment for me when I'm out there too.
Katie
yeah I really love how I have a Garmin in reach too and now that iPhones can do a little bit of satellite texting I I like being off the grid in terms of cell reception I don't want to have my phone blowing up all the time but having the ability to send a really slow tortoise message to somebody that like it's not it's not easy enough to do that it once it keeps me like on my device because it's enough of a hassle to get the message out and take so long. But just knowing that I could hear from somebody if something went wrong really gives me comfort because I don't have that antsy, like what if something's going wrong at home? I know that if I haven't heard anything, then we're good. So that gives me like the peace of mind to just relax when I'm out there and not be like anxious or worried about what's going on with people back home that I otherwise couldn't have heard from.
Ross
Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a game changer, you know, and those devices are, I talk to people about these all the time and they're like, oh, I don't need that. They're like, I mean, you probably don't need it. But number one, if you ever look at the data for how many times people have pressed those SOS buttons on those devices, it's crazy. Like they get used way more often than you think they do. And so you don't know that you don't need it. But the other thing is that they're not in the realm of outdoor gear and stuff that could save your life and maybe keep you in touch with the folks back home. They're not terribly expensive, right? They're tiny. They cost you a few hundred bucks. Yeah, you got to pay a subscription on them. But as far as gear that I want, like that's the kind of device that I wouldn't go on some trips without. If I show up and I'm like, oh, man, I forgot the inReach, I'm probably not going to do that climb that day. Because then if something goes bad, we're back to like the 1980s where it's like, well, he said he was going to go kind of like over here somewhere. And they're out there looking for you in helicopters. I don't – that might be for some people, but it's not for me. I'd like to go home at the end of it.
Katie
Well, and even if you're not in an emergency situation as far as like life-threatening, you need to be helicoptered out. Even just I've done drives on, you know, four by four roads where I'm like, I'm just not going to be in cell service. If I were to break down out here, if I have this device, I can text somebody and say, I'm stuck right here. You know, please drive out and help me get my car out of here. I'm going to wait around for a little bit, but that's going to be like the extent of what has to happen. If I don't have one now, I'm like I'm stuck out here, you know, maybe 10, 20 miles back and I can't get my car out. And I have no way of telling anyone that here's where I am. So it's just like even things that wouldn't be a life-threatening situation immediately, like it can turn a real pickle into like not that big a deal by just being able to send a text out to somebody.
Ross
Yeah, for sure. I agree. And in fact, it's funny because I usually have the inReach with me just in any case in my day bag because it makes it easier for me to keep track of. And I'll occasionally break it out in areas where I don't have cell reception just to look at a map. You know, it's like if you can't get Google Maps to work, you're like, let me just break out the inReach and check that. Okay, I'm on the right track. I'm gonna go that way. So it's just a super convenient little device. And I'm, you know, I know we like the rustic experience. It's not like I'm out there with all sorts of, you know, Starlink and crazy tech stuff set up at camp. But I mean, it's 2026, the technology exists. I'm of the opinion that if the tech is out there and the gear is out there, and it could make the experience better or safer, why not?
Katie
Sure. What's your like, kind of ideal day in the backcountry, just in terms of like, what kind of water do you like fishing? What kind of species do you like fishing for? What kind of techniques or gear do you like to use? Like what, What kind of is the ideal situation for you if you had your choice?
Ross
Well, that's a good question. I think if I had to pick only one form of fly fishing to do for the rest of my life, it would be small stream fishing. I think at my core and in my heart, I'm a small stream guy. I spend as much of my time as possible with a seven and a half foot three weight in my hand. I will occasionally go down to a two weight, you know, and I am perfectly happy catching eight inch brook trout for 12 hours at a time in some teeny tiny creek in the middle of nowhere. I find that those streams have, in a lot of ways, more character than the bigger rivers. They're much more varied. The terrain is crazier. They have just a lot more detail in the water that you're working on. And they just feel more intimate to me. A big river is a big river, especially out west. It's like the really big rivers. They're beautiful, but they're all big rivers, right? And these creeks, they vary in elevation. They vary in terrain. They vary in substrate type. They vary in insect activity. They vary in tree cover. and they're wildly different experiences. So that's kind of my, if I could pick my perfect fishing experience, I would love to do that. But I do also really like going up and going after cutthroat in the high Alpine lakes. And I, it's, it's almost an, it just sounds kind of woo woo. So forgive me, but it's a totally different thing for me. It's like when you go down into a small stream and a Canyon or a Valley it feels very alive and intimate and very personal. It's like there's a you're interacting with the living thing high alpine lakes feel to me more like a challenge those environments feel like a place where you're really not supposed to be they're not friendly they're beautiful but they're beautiful in a very stark almost kind of brutal way they're constantly trying to kill you there's weather rolling over the top of those circs all the time and so you're constantly checking it the wind's beating you up and it's cold. I mean, it's, they're just a totally different thing where it's a hard climb and a hard environment that you're really not supposed to be in. And that's about conquering something. Being in those small streams for me is more about connection and presence. And so it depends on what I'm looking for on a given day. I do both. I try to split it up. It's probably not quite evenly because our high alpine season is so short that you kind of have to get after it while it's, while it's there. But I like them both for, for different reasons. As far as species go, I don't care, to be honest with you. There's a lake that I'm planning to go to this summer that supposedly has grayling in it, so I'm going to go check that out. It can be brook trout. It can be cutthroat trout. You can even, look, if you want to throw some rainbow trout in there, that's fine. I was fishing a stream yesterday that's full of brown trout. I'm really not a hardcore, like, it's got to be a native or I don't want to touch it. I'm really, I don't know, a fish is a fish is a fish. Fly fishing to me is fly fishing. I'm just as happy catching brook trout as I am catching native cutthroat, And I'm just as happy going and getting bored and fishing for smallmouth bass as I am fishing for those. So it's all just kind of part of the activity for me. As far as how I like to fly fish, to be honest with you, I'm like the opposite of some of the other guys in the industry who are, you know, I'm not going to name any names because I don't want to get you in trouble. But it's like, you know, every time I look, they're like, OK, I've come up with a new way to tie a leader. And then, you know, we're going to learn about how we're going to this thing. tiny little variations and iterations on how they fish and for them that's really fun and I respect it there's a lot of thought that goes into it a lot of intelligence that goes into it so i'm not trying to throw shade i'm a caveman i'm like I just want to do the simple thing that makes sense that yes catches fish and yes makes sense in the context of how i'm fishing but it doesn't need to be complicated so like if you take me in the warmer months and throw me on almost anything i'm I'm probably fishing a dry dropper. Like that's 95% of the time. And there are people who are like, well, you should be nymphing and you should this. And I switch between those. And I will if I have to, if conditions demand that I fish a streamer or I go nymph or whatever. But for the most part, I'm going to have an elk elk elk caddis and something hanging underneath it. And that's just what I'm going to do. And it works fine.
Katie
I am absolutely with you on that. I am not a super gear junkie. Like I like having a lot of different rods because it's like fun to have lots of rods. But for your elk elk elk elk, that's a parachute atoms for me. And it's like, I'm going to put a parachute at them with probably like a tiny little hair's ear hanging underneath it. And that's going to be my go-to. And I rarely am going to need to switch it because it almost always works. And occasionally I'll stumble across something. Like I'll have had to tweak a technique or a leader set up here or there to make something work. And then I'm like, oh, what? Like that's a cool thing I should kind of put in the back of my mind for next time I need it. So I'll stumble across those. But just tweaking for the sake of tweaking and perfecting is not like a, it's not the hobby for me. It's something that I occasionally have to do to catch fish. But if I find something that's working, I'm like, cool, it's working. I don't need to mess with it after that. So I feel you there.
Ross
Yeah, it kind of, I think people get frustrated sometimes. You'll go talk to guys in fly shops or guides or whatever. And they're like, well, you know, you should do this. I'm like, but why? You know, I mean, I can go out there and do this and it's going to catch 60 fish. Like it just isn't, could I catch 80 instead? Maybe, you know, could I maybe catch a slightly bigger fish if I made this micro adjustment to what I'm maybe, but that's not why I'm out there, right? I'm not out there for the validation of catching the next thing. I'm just out there to enjoy it, which isn't to say like, if I need a longer leader, I'll put on a longer leader. If I need to adjust the fly setup, I'll adjust the fly setup. So that's not to say that I won't make adjustments if I need to, but I only really do it when I need to, if I'm being honest.
Katie
But the beauty of backcountry fly fishing is that you don't often need to because the fish are not that crazy. Like I think a lot of people get into this kind of like tweaking thing because if you're fishing the you know the gold medal blue ribbon whatever stretch of this popular river and it's like the fish are really hard to catch you're gonna have to get it dialed just right to get those fish to bite and that that is rewarding in itself to have like solved the puzzle in a way but I and I feel like a lot of people i've talked to you about this are like the reason we put in the work to get away from people is so we don't have to work very hard once we get there like we can just enjoy ourselves and have fun and like maybe I want to try a new technique just for the sake of trying a new technique, but it's not because I have to dial something in. It's just like, let's see if this fly works or let's see if this setup works because we've already put in the effort ahead of time to just get to the easy fishing.
Ross
For sure. And I, listen, I'm going to say something that is maybe kind of spicy in the fly fishing universe, but I, I don't like fishing tailwaters and gold medal waters for those reasons. And it's, Frank, I can catch fish there. In fact, I learned how to fish on those waters, Right. So like that was part of why I was so frustrated for so long was because I was trying to teach myself on waters like that. And you do eventually figure it out. But for me, it's just it's not a terribly enjoyable experience to feel like you've got to dial in every single micro adjustment to catch these fish because it isn't a natural state for the fish. right like these fish are primarily living in tailwaters where they're having food flushed out of the bottom of a lake to them constantly which is part of why they're so big and it's part of why they have to be so select or they can be so selective about what they're eating and also they're heavily pressured and so they're getting you know they're picky they've got a phd in like how not to get a hook in their mouth and so they know what to eat and what not to eat and from my perspective from a i'm kind of like a naturalist I guess in that I i really care about the environment and experiencing the environment in as much of an untouched state as I possibly can, that to me feels artificial, right? Like now I'm responding to variables that have been introduced by human beings into the stream. And I'm dialing what I'm doing around variables have been introduced by something non-natural here. And that's not what I'm in it for. Like I want to go catch wild trout in places where they're acting like wild trout. And wild trout in real life are not that picky because they can't afford to be picky. So, you know, you get people that are like, well, you're just lazy and you want easy fishing. And I'm like, I mean, I'm not going to lie. It is pretty cool. And you can catch a fish on any fly in your box on almost every decent cast that you make. But also that's how trout are. And that's how natural streams act. This is what these environments look like in real life before we mess with them. And the idea that you're somehow better or that the place is better because it's been jacked up to the point where the fish are afraid to eat anything that you put in front of them is not a plus for me. And so I will do it in the winter when I have to. But the second I can get off of those waters and go back to the backcountry, back to small streams, I'm doing that, no question. And I won't look back until October.
Katie
I mean, by that logic, we should take all the trout and tailwater out except just one. And then everyone goes and tries to catch that one fish because then you really have to be the best of the best and you can't be lazy about it and just fish for any one of these thousand fish that are in there. It's kind of a weird argument. And I would also counter that by saying, well, you're just lazy because you drove up to the river and just got out of your car and you were right there instead of having to walk to get there. And I don't actually believe that. I'm more than happy to drive up and fish some great water right off the road. But the idea that you're somehow being lazy by finding fish that are willing to eat anything, I'm like, well, your definition of lazy here is different than mine, which would be that walking to get to where you are fishing is the work.
Ross
Yeah, 100%. Fly fishing is so much about learning, right? Like so much of what the sport is about is about learning and mastery and figuring it out. And I want to make sure that I'm figuring out a thing that exists in nature. Like I don't want to figure out what Bob just did in this hole 20 minutes ago. And therefore, I have to figure out how to counter for that. And then maybe I want to go figure out the place, not the people who are in the place. Nor do I want to stand around in a parking lot and have 15 guys wearing waders in 90 degree weather come up to me and ask me what I'm using. or see me catch a fish and go over you. It's just, I don't really want to do that. I want to be in nature. I don't want to talk to you. Not because I don't love you. I'm sure you're great. But like, I'm not here for the social club experience or the artificial challenges you said. I want to go experience these places as they were meant to be.
Katie
And I think I've gotten this impression from you too, is that like, I don't do anything wrong with going fishing tailwaters. And it's not that I don't do it. It's just if I could choose one or the other, I'm always going to choose the non-tailwater, the non-crowded, the non-pressured fish, because it's just a more enjoyable experience for me. And, you know, I have no problem with people doing that. I'm actually glad that, you know, they're going there. So I have like my remote places to go, but yeah, just side by side, there's no comparison to me.
Ross
Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to shame you. Fly fishing is all about doing it how you want to do it. That's the whole point of the sport. It's creative. So if that's what you're into, then knock yourself out. But I hate it. I really do. So I will go out and do it over the course of the winter because I have to, because the alternative is that I just don't fish and then I become very unpleasant to be around. But by right about now, every year, I'm like, okay, I'm done. Like I'll drive to Freestones and stick a thermometer in them randomly just to see if they're ready for me to go back to, because I am just so desperate to get the hell away from the busier rivers. I can't wait. And I will not go back until nature makes me.
Katie
Well, I want to wrap up by hearing a little bit about your podcast. That's actually how I came across you because this is just me being in my own bubble, but I've kind of associated myself with being like the backcountry fly fishing podcast because that's mostly what I like to cover. And I had never heard another one kind of focus on that until I came across yours recently. And I don't know, I think I just Googled for other backcountry fly fishing podcasts and it was like, how about the backcountry fly fishing podcast? And I was like, well, that sounds right up my alley. So you're the host of that. And I'd love to hear how you started in podcasting and chat about that for a little bit.
Ross
Yeah. Uh, it's been an interesting ride. I actually, I have been doing this for a long time just from a fishing perspective, but I do it by myself. Uh, I find that most people don't care that much. So like by the time you've sent a hundred fish pictures, to your significant other and they're like, great, it's, it's still a fish or like, well, I don't think this is maybe that interesting to other people. So I didn't talk about it a lot. It was just something that I did for, for me. Uh, and then I had someone say, look, you should, you should do a podcast about this. I mean, nobody cares about some random bald man dirtbagging around in the mountains, fly fishing. And they said, just give it a shot, see what happens. So I did, I'm not very creative. So I came up with the name, the backcountry fly fishing podcast, because otherwise I would have to think of something. So I just said, screw it. And we threw that on there and started recording. And it's, it's become in a very relative sense, a pretty cool sort of gathering place for this niche group of anglers, particularly in the West, who are really into fly fishing in the backcountry. And there's some folks all over the country, but I think it's kind of concentrated itself in a lot of ways in the Western states. And it's been a fun experience. I mean, it started out as just a hobby and something that I was doing for fun. It developed from that into something that started to look more like a real podcast. And it's developed from that into something that's starting to look like a side hustle that I don't get paid for, which is perfectly fine because I get to go fishing and that's rad. And then talking about it, which is cool. But it's really it's grown into a pretty cool community and a fun project for me. And I'm about two years into it now. I keep thinking that eventually I'll run out of stuff to talk about. But I have a list of like 300 things that all deserve talking about. And I'll go back and listen to an episode. And I'm like, well, man, I could have said that. I could have said that. We didn't cover it. So not running out of space to talk. And people seem to be enjoying it and learning from it, which is awesome. And one day it'll potentially be a reference and a resource for my kids when they start getting into this stuff. And to be honest with you, it's just it's an awful lot of fun. So it's developed into sort of a passion of mine right alongside fishing. And it's been great.
Katie
Yeah. What's the structure of your show? I know you mentioned before we got recording that you kind of do it in seasons, which is a little different than I do it. So what's the what's the structure interview versus solo episodes, stuff like that?
Ross
Yeah, that's been a learning experience for me, too, actually. I am when I first started doing it, I assumed that nobody in the world would ever want to listen to me talk unless they were being paid to listen to me talk. But actually, it's turned out that the solo episodes are the more popular episodes. We've kind of gone from doing primarily, I wouldn't say primarily, but maybe 50-50 interviews and solo episodes to more just solo episodes. Just talking about everything from the psychology of what we're doing to some of the emotional stuff, which I think doesn't get talked about a lot, even though it should. And the therapeutic value of this to hardcore tactics and everything else. These days, we've settled into a structure that is really about probably two-thirds that and then one-third interviews. So we have four or five interviews every single season with folks that range from people who are versed in psychology, people who are versed in avalanches, people who are versed in wilderness safety and hiking, and also fly fishing, just to sort of round out the perspective, especially on areas where I think folks could really benefit from hearing from others. And we've kind of settled into the season structure, as you said, in large part because I have a day job. I work in politics, unfortunately for me. And so I have to spend a bunch of time doing that as well. And it has worked out pretty well to have about a 12 episode season where we can cover something usually kind of thematically around a season of fishing or a specific idea or something else. Then we'll take a month and a half or two months off so I can catch my breath and record some new stuff. Then we'll come back for another 10 or 12 episode season. And that's kind of how we've settled into it. So, you know, will it change again at some point? I mean, probably. I'm mostly just making this stuff up as I go, right? So it can change at any time. But that has seemed to be a pretty comfortable cadence that keeps it fun for me, keeps it fun, I think, for the audience and stops it from becoming an overwhelming project.
Katie
I'm impressed by your ability to do the solo episodes because I can't imagine myself talking into the microphone without somebody else there for, you know, 20 to 40 minutes. That like absolutely terrifies me. And so that's kind of why I got in the interview route. There's plenty of topics that I've thought of that I'm like, this would be a really cool episode. I feel like I know a lot about this, but I need to find somebody else to talk to about it because I like I can't just monologue into the microphone. Was that hard for you at first? Have you gotten like, was it natural? Have you gotten used to it?
Ross
It was hard for me at first, yeah. I mean, I talk to people almost for a living because of what I do. And so I'm used to, you know, soliloquies, I guess, for better or for worse. But it was, yeah, it's awkward when you first start because you're not interacting with another person. You're just talking. But I find that the less structured it is and the more that I can go in with just sort of a loose feeling or a vibe about whatever we're talking about and my personal experience with it, the easier it is for me to just kind of riff on it and cover it. But I mean, for sure, when I first started, it was tough. And like I said, my general inclination was that after 30 minutes of listening to me talk about indicators, people would be jumping off of the nearest tall building. But they seem to like it. So that's fine. And it means the scheduling is a little bit easier for me, too.
Katie
Yeah. Do you see yourself continue to do it for a long time? Is this like an indefinite thing for you?
Ross
Yeah, I think so. Barring a massive life change or something else, I can't imagine. I'm not going to stop fishing until life makes me, which probably means when I finally leave. So I don't plan to stop fishing. And to be honest with you, when you're out there fishing anyway, it's not a big deal to sit down and just talk about it and talk about your experiences and your perspectives. So no plans to stop at this point.
Katie
Has your podcasting affected your fishing at all? Like kind of the reverse of what you'd think? Just, I don't know, when you're out there, you were thinking about like episode material or anything like that, or are they kind of two separate entities for you?
Ross
That's a really good question. Yes. And I've kind of consciously tried to resist that. So it gets really easy, particularly once you mix social media into it, to get down the rabbit hole of having to be producing content rather than being present in the places where you are. And so there is some of that. I take a lot of pictures anyway, because I like to keep, you said you keep a log. I actually keep a visual log. So I go and split out my pictures into the days that I went and where I was when I was there. And that's kind of how I go back and remember where I've been. So I did a lot of it anyway. But I have, I occasionally catch myself, you know, you'll have an idea in the middle of the stream and you'll bust out your phone and write a note to yourself. I do that a lot, but I've tried to avoid it becoming performative, right? I think there are a lot of folks out there that once it moves from a hobby to something public to something that looks like a job, not that I would classify this as a job, but something that's job adjacent, it can start to kind of color your experience. And then you're different reasons you're behaving in different ways and I don't want to say that it's never affected it but I tend to be pretty judicious about staying present in what i'm doing because for me i'm out there to fish for me for my own self-regulation and for my own joy and not necessarily to produce content for anybody really based on what they want to see so it happens the temptation is there but I try really really hard to keep those two things as separate as they can be where I'm talking about my fishing experiences and not fishing for experiences to talk about.
Katie
I used to do a blog kind of in conjunction with the podcast. And that was one of the reasons I quit doing it. Part of it was that I just liked the act of podcasting more than the act of writing blog posts. But I would find myself when I was on the river thinking about like, how could I spin this into a blog post? What pictures do I need to take to pair with that blog post? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, why am I out here? Am I just out here to get like fodder for this thing. And now because the podcast is all interviews, it's like I'm kind of at the mercy of what other people want to talk about. Like it's not really, there's no content coming from me apart from just like how I respond to people. But it's really kind of opened fishing back up for me where when I'm out there, I'm not really thinking, like occasionally I'll think of a topic like, oh, this would be fun to talk about. But like I can't really pre-plan what I would do for that episode because I'm at the mercy of whatever the other person says and wants to talk about. So the most I can really go is, oh, that would be an interesting topic. And then I've just got to kind of couch it at that. And that's fine. Like that doesn't really distract me the way that it used to where I was like, oh, I could talk about this. I could talk about this and this. And I'm glad to hear that you've kind of been able to separate that for yourself as well, because it was really ruining the experience for a while where I was like, what am I doing out here? If I'm doing the blog because I love fishing and I'm not loving fishing anymore, what's the point?
Ross
Yeah, 100%. And look, if you're out there doing it because you need it, And for me, I mean, it sounds like I need to be outside and I need to fish or I'm really not okay. Right. And so the idea of losing that is scary to me and it's not something that I want to do. And to your earlier question about do you plan to do it for a while? I do. I plan to do it until that threshold gets crossed. Right. So once it gets to a place where it starts damaging my ability to enjoy the activity and to be present with the activity, that's probably the day that I hang it up and say, no, thanks. I'll catch you guys later. But we're not there now. So keep going.
Katie
Cool. Well, just to wrap up, where can people find you if they want to check out your podcast, reach out, any resources you want to point people to?
Ross
Yeah, sure. So you can find the Backcountry Fly Fishing Podcast on just about any podcast platform that you use. So check it out there. I wish we had a website. We don't. One day I'll get around to building that, but not yet. You can check out the Instagram, which is Backcountry Fly Fishing Podcast on Instagram. And if you want to send me an email, you can really see my creative vein running through this. There is also backcountryflyfishingpodcast @gmail.com if you want to send me a note. I do read all of those. I'm always happy to chat. I get a lot of messages from folks that range from, I think you're wrong, to I think this is awesome, to what kind of boots should I buy, so feel free to shoot me a note. And just follow along. Always happy to wrap with you. And in the meantime, we'll be back in real fishing season soon and can't wait to talk about it.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Ross, thank you so much for joining me here. It was nice to find somebody else who's kind of focusing on the same thing I am. And I always like being able to chat podcasting too, because I don't know a lot of other people who do it. So just thank you for taking the time for this.
Ross
Thanks for having me. It's awesome.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fish untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody. you
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