Ep 184: Conservation for the Average Joe, with Jesse Robbins
Jesse Robbins is a Major Gifts Officer at Trout Unlimited and freelance writer. He also previously worked for Far Bank Enterprises. In this episode, we talk about how the average person can contribute to conservation, how to find local organizations, the importance of mentorship, storytelling as a conservation tool, and much more.
Website: www.jesselancerobbins.com
Instagram: @jesse.lance.robbins
Linkedin: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 184 with Jesse Robbins on conservation for the average Joe. Hey everybody, just wanted to hop in quickly and make a quick announcement before the show. We are rapidly approaching flyathlon season, and for those who aren't familiar with the flyathlon, It is a super fun race that happens a couple times each year, and it's based around running, fishing, and drinking beer, which are three of my favorite things. And if you'd like to hear more about the race, you can listen to episode one of the Fish Untamed podcast, where I interviewed Andrew Todd, the founder of the Flyathlon. You can also check out episode nine with Katie Mazzia and episode 121, where I catch up with Andrew Todd a second time. But in addition to being a really fun weekend with a lot of fun people, The Flyathlon is also a fundraiser to raise money for native cutthroat trout conservation. So if you have a couple extra dollars that you would be interested in donating to a great cause to support native cutthroat trout, go ahead and head over to my website, fishuntame.com, and you'll find a menu at the top called Flyathlon Fundraiser. That link should take you to the fundraiser, and you can donate there. I do want to mention that Running Rivers, the organization that hosts the Flyathlon, is a 501c3 organization and all donations are tax deductible. And any amount is greatly appreciated. This would be a great way to support the show and also support a wonderful cause for native trout. So that's all I've got for you and we can get on with the show. Well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and into fishing. So walk me through how you got introduced to fly fishing in the first place.
Jesse
Yeah, the short version is my father was and is a fly fisherman. And so I've learned through him. But both my parents are big outdoors people. And so I spent a lot of time as a kid hiking and camping and fishing and canoeing. I grew up in rural Maine and there's a lot of woods around the house and also a little trout stream through the woods that I would spend a lot of time as a kid. I'm an only child. So during summer months would entertain myself in a lot of ways. So I spent a lot of time just kind of crashing around in small streams. And yeah, probably like a lot of us have just a lot of fun memories, getting wet, coming home wet and dirty and then doing it all over again the next day.
Katie
That reminds me of my childhood too. I have two older sisters, but they're so much older than I am that I effectively grew up as an only child. And it was the same thing. Like I need to entertain myself somehow. So I'm going to go, I guess, wander around and get dirty and figure it out as I go. So that sounds very familiar to me.
Jesse
Yeah, I think. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think I caught my first fish on a fly on that river. It's called the St. George River. And I remember at the time it was my father was so surprised, you know, because it's not when you take someone fly fishing for the first time, it's more than often or it's less often the case that they catch something so he was just blown away but in my like whatever nine-year-old mind it was just make perfect sense you know you go fly fishing and you catch a fish so that’s, of course.
Katie
of course. I've been to Maine once but only kind of we drove north from Boston we're kind of like along the coast so I haven't been to kind of like interior Maine but I've heard great things about it from kind of a fishing hunting perspective just how wild it is How close were you to like the Rangeley Lakes? That's kind of the place I've heard of and what I think of when I think of like fishing in Maine.
Jesse
Yeah. So I grew up in what's called mid-coast Maine. Belfast is where I went to high school. Or Camden are kind of the two closest towns, which are both coastal. Rangeley is probably two and a half hours northwest from there. So it's a little bit of a drive. But when my father and I would take our fishing trips, we would drive in that direction, either into northern Maine or western Maine, where you start to get into the mountains and, you know, get into big tracts of forested land. And so, yeah, it's been a lot of time in that area as well.
Katie
Is the rest of Maine also still kind of like a sportsman's paradise? Because, like I said, I've heard of Rangeley Lakes, and that comes up a lot with regard to Maine. But what's the rest of Maine like? Is it still pretty wild? Is it pretty uninhabited? Or, you know, I guess just what's it like to grow up in?
Jesse
Yeah, it's definitely a rural place. And not surprisingly, the population centers are largely coastal and even southern Maine, like in the greater Portland area. So, yeah, once you get away from the coast and especially start driving north, just the towns get a lot smaller and there's more space in between the towns. And, yeah, central and northern Maine is really, really cool. There's tons of ponds and lots of little brooks and rivers and a lot of timberland that can be accessed. There's a giant state park in northern central Maine called Baxter State Park. That's really popular with Mainers and folks from everywhere. And that was a place that I spent a lot of time growing up. As you know, brook trout are native to Maine. And so, you know, Maine is a really big, possibly like the last great stronghold for native brook trout populations. And they're often in these ponds. And that was something that my father and I did a lot growing up was chasing hatches for brook trout in ponds in northern Maine.
Katie
Is it primarily trout fishing up there? Do you have any like warmer water species?
Jesse
Well, I was going to say, you know, especially recently, Maine has maybe got on, I don't want to say on the radar, but has been maybe seen a little bit more publicly as for the variety of its fisheries. So there's, you know, the brook trout fishing in Maine has definitely been long known for a long time. But there's some really cool and really fun smallmouth bass fisheries. There's some cool pike fishing that you can do. And then, of course, you have the whole ocean. So striped bass fishing, bluefish, there's a ton of people that fish for those species as well.
Katie
I know you said you're in Oregon now. What took you out west?
Jesse
Originally, I ended up in, well, I left Maine and was traveling for a while internationally and then ended up in Colorado, in southwest Colorado, and had a very brief stint as a fishing guide and did that for a couple of seasons. And then by the end of that, I was largely broke and transient. And so ended up in Washington on Bainbridge Island and took a job there working for Far Bank. So the suite of brands, Sage, Redington, Rio, and now Flywater Travel. So that was 2011. So I've been in the Northwest for 15 years. But the short answer to your question is work. But work and fishing have kind of overlapped for a long time.
Katie
Yeah, so walk me through what you do now. I know you mentioned Far Bank. I know you also do some writing. What constitutes work for you these days?
Jesse
These days, my nine to five is I work for Trout Unlimited, and I'm in their development department, so fundraising, and I work with individual donors specifically. And yes, it is asking for money is one way to put it. But in my mind, I have, as I like to say, the pleasure of connecting folks with the work that's being done to protect the places that they care about. And so like for me, I have a degree in economics, but I'm not a scientist or like a policy expert or engineer or someone that's working in the field. And so like the communications and development side of things is how I can contribute to conservation and protecting the fisheries and places that have given so much to me. And I feel like I want to give back to and protect and restore so that they continue to exist.
Katie
What does that look like for you? Like a day in the life of, like you said, asking for money for Trout Unlimited. What do you do in a typical day?
Jesse
Yeah. So, so major gifts officer is my title. And so I work with individual donors, based in the Pacific States specifically. And so, a lot of my work is talking on the phone and meeting people in person and, communicating over email or on zoom calls and getting to know, folks and learn what they're passionate about and learn what they're interested in. So learn about the rivers that they care about or perhaps the species they care about, or in many cases, sort of broader, higher level topics like climate change or dam removals or like in-stream, keeping water in-stream. And so every sort of interaction I have with a donor is kind of a discovery period where I'm trying to learn about them and learn what they care about. And then also I have to do my homework and be familiar with the work that Trout Unlimited is doing. And then I try to kind of connect the dots. And so, and yeah, connect those donors or potential donors with the conservation staff or the work that's being done. And, you know, when it goes right, there are these long-term mutually beneficial relationships where a donor becomes a part of Trout Unlimited and supports our mission and supports the work. And for us, we get the benefit of having them partner with us and help us, or they get to help us keep that work going on.
Katie
You know, a lot of what we're going to talk about today before we get into kind of the fishing side is conservation. But I think kind of from maybe from the point of view that would resonate more with the average person, because I think the average angler is interested in being involved in conservation in some way. But most people aren't going to be kind of the nitty gritty boots on the ground. Like you said, the engineers, the scientists, they're going to be like, how can I as a, you know, quote unquote normal person be involved in conservation. And maybe I'll let you take the reins here for a little bit and talk about that because that sounds like kind of what you are. You know, you're not you're not the engineer designing some kind of, you know, fish passage to let fish get past dams or or part of dam removal or anything like that. But you're still, you know, intimately involved with the conservation side. So I'll let you kind of take it away and just talk about how conservation can kind of become part of the lives of normal people and how they can get involved and make a difference?
Jesse
Sure. Yeah. There are so many ways to get involved in conservation, especially in our digital world right now. And I would say, and I mentioned that only from a sort of transfer of information standpoint. So for me, I worked in the fly fishing industry for a long time. And when I entered the fly fishing industry, I was maybe like 90% interested in like tackle and fishing and the industry part of it and 10% interested in conservation. And just over the years, those ratios totally flipped, which led me to a career change. But I think a great way to start is by getting informed about the places that you care about. So if you have like whatever your home water is, there is undoubtedly conservation work being done on, on that, in that place. And so, whether that's a local watershed group or a, a nonprofit that's focused on that specific water or watershed or a Trout Unlimited chapter or, a national organization that has a campaign going on there. And so, so doing, just doing a little bit of research and kind of coming up to speed on the work that's being done there and also like why it's being done so like what are the issues or what are the the problems in in that place and so as an angler then I think you can develop this understanding of a place that's both from a passion perspective of like yes I love fishing here and I love trying to catch the brown trout or the rainbows or whatever are there but that if you can combine that with an understanding of like what's at risk or what needs protection or what needs work from a conservation standpoint, then you can combine those. And then you can really become like, I'll say dangerous from a conservation point of view, because you have this professional and personal interest and passion that combine. And excuse me, for me, that's where I feel like I do my best work. Like if I have a personal interest about it, like I enjoy spending time there, or I enjoy fishing there, or I have close friends that live there or something like that, if I can combine that with sort of a more hesitant to use this word, but a little bit more academic or like professional understanding of the work that needs to be done there, then that's a great, those are two great kind of tools in the toolbox from which to get started. So just developing an understanding, I think is a great way to start. And from there, you know, most local organizations will have volunteer opportunities, And that could be anything from like a trash pickup to a tree planting. But getting like in the field, not necessarily fishing, but provide but approaching the field, like being in the field from a from a conservation lens just gives an additional perspective about your relationship with that place. I mean, from there, I subscribe to a bunch of newsletters and, you know, through social media, you can follow all these organizations. And I feel like I'm just constantly trying to absorb information and it can be overwhelming because there is so much, there's so much stuff to be done. And of course we can't do everything. So just like picking the causes or the efforts that you feel you have an appetite and bandwidth for. One approach that I have taken, and this won't work for everyone, but I try to think sort of local, state-based, and national. And so there's a couple organizations that I volunteer for here in the Eugene, Oregon area. One's called the McKenzie River Trust, and they do plantings and riparian restoration groups. And so we'll just people will go out and there's a volunteer coordinator and staff from them that'll sort of lead that effort. So that's one thing that I can do locally from a statewide or from a state based perspective. I sit on the board of this state based nonprofit called Water Watch, and they have a mission that's all about in stream flows. So keeping quantities of water in stream, but they are specifically state based. That's kind of the purview of their of their work. And then from a more regional or national perspective, I'm a member, of course, and then also staffer for Trinidad Unlimited. And for me, that's how I kind of plug in on a more regional or national basis. There's a lot of information that I just kind of spouted off there. But yeah, I'm happy to sort of clarify or dive into a little deeper any of that.
Katie
Yeah, I'm mostly interested in how best to find out what's happening on your local waterway. And it'll vary based on your situation. For example, if you live next to like a major waterway, I bet it's not terribly hard to find information out about what's going on there because there might be like national organizations working on that waterway if it's like a major like water through way. If you live in a place that, you know, maybe super rural, no major rivers nearby, but you've got, you know, your little local stream that you really enjoy. How do you find out what kind of work is being done there if you, for example, joined Trout Unlimited and aren't seeing something like that in the newsletter? Like, how do you find those smaller grassroots organizations that might be doing work on your waterway, but aren't big enough for you to just kind of to be part of the zeitgeist, I guess? Like, everyone knows about Trout Unlimited, but a lot of people might not know about the little local things that only have a couple hundred members and are focused on a smaller waterway.
Jesse
Yeah, that's a great question. One avenue to do that might be to check in with a local fly shop. a good fly shop will have a relationship and an understanding, you know, of the, of organizations, just like you described. So that would be one good place. Um, I also think, you know, organizations like Trout Unlimited and, and others, American Rivers, there, you know, there's many great sort of larger scale when they do work, in communities, they're oftentimes partnering with local organizations like what you said and so one place to start might be through the website of a larger organization like that and just drilling down as close as you can into the work and then trying to discover through that who the who the local partners are because no conservation project is ever done by one organization or very very few I would say you know, in a silo. So that could be another place to sort of mine some information. And of course, I mean, this isn't, I'm not going to surprise you or anyone else by just saying like the internet and social media, just kind of searching around that way. But the fly shops and looking for partners of the large orgs, I think are a couple of good ways.
Katie
Gotcha. I know you mentioned in your like bullets ahead of time that mentorship is or can be a big part of conservation. I think fly fishing in general, it's kind of a hard thing to break into just on a whim. Like you just decide one day I'm going to learn to fly fish. And like, not that you can't, but you know, a lot of the best ways to get involved in fly fishing are related to people, like who you know, who's willing to show you the ropes. And I feel like conservation's kind of the same way. And I know you mentioned that ahead of time. So I just want to hear your thoughts on mentorship as kind of a resource in fly fishing and in fly fishing conservation?
Jesse
That's such a great topic. And yeah. So from the, well, from both, maybe I'll try to walk the line in between both for a minute here. But I think at some point you have to get out there. And so whether that's like, by that, I mean, getting into the field and getting wet. And so on the conservation side of things, I think that is volunteering. And when you do sign up for a volunteer event, you're gonna like inherently get connected with a local staffer or other volunteers. And there's undoubtedly, there will be people who have done it before or done it for many, many years. And it'll be like fairly apparent who those folks are. And so just kind of glamping onto those folks and trying to draft off their knowledge and their expertise. So yeah, making that first step to, or that eventual step to volunteer and get into the field, I think is the great way to get connected with those mentors from the conservation side of things. And similar to fly fishing, whether that's a fly fishing class or booking a guide trip or making a friend at the local fly shop or a local fly fishing club at some point you've got we we all have to get off and I'm not I'm guilty of this too so this I'm trying not to say like this is other people's not trying to give to do's for other people but at some point we have to get out of our house right and get out of maybe our comfort zone a little bit and kind of seek out those human interactions but they're there and one thing that's so great about fly fishing and conservation is that the people who do those activities know that the education and mentorship is such a big part of those activities and practices because they themselves had mentors. So there's already an inherent understanding and motivation of the people who do the activities or do the conservation work to spread the information and get other people involved. So they are seeking mentees as well. The other part is that, and this is less, maybe less glamorous, but like reading books are so, so important. And in both conservation and fly fishing, again, I'm going to use a cliche here, but we're all standing on the shoulders of giants, right? And there are so many people who have done this work and done this activity before us that we can learn from. And the information is there. We just have to go to the library or go buy a book. So that's another good way to develop an understanding. And again, when you can combine that sort of understanding with the personal passion, that's where like action takes place, I think.
Katie
That kind of ties in nicely to what I was going to ask next, which kind of went along with your idea of like mentorship as being an important part of conservation, but also storytelling. And when I think of that, what comes to mind for me is like the fact that it's hard. It's hard to care about something that you don't have some kind of connection to. And it's not necessarily like reading a story, although it could be. But I think of it as like an example. The first time I went saltwater fly fishing, I knew that these species existed. I knew that these places existed, but it's hard for me to like deeply care about something if I just know it as this like amorphous thing that exists that I've heard about. Maybe I've seen pictures of, but it's like until you are there kind of experiencing those species or that place, it's hard to like, you might, you might donate money to it and say, I know this is a good cause, but it's hard to like deeply feel it in my opinion. And I feel like the next best way to experiencing something in person like that is to read a, like a long form story about it or watch a long form, like a, like an hour long movie and feel like you're putting yourself in that place. So I want to hear your thoughts on that and you can kind of tie it into, I know you do some writing, you know, the importance of storytelling in that connection of like people and places in the world of conservation.
Jesse
Yeah. Well, I, I mean, well said, and I agree with you, obviously. I think, you know, on the saltwater side of things, it's funny, like many people for me reading Thomas McGuane's The Longest Silence was like a great introduction to permit fishing and just the keys and so yeah having an understanding or getting motivated through someone else's words is such great inspiration and great fodder so and a lot of in oftentimes the writing that tells a story about the place will weave into like the conservation issues right they they are one in the same and so yeah I agree with you a long form essay or an article or or in today's like media world like these films and shorts are such a great way to get introduced to a place. And I would also say that it can go like the order of operations can go the other way. So for example, my wife and I took a trip to Hawaii a couple of years ago and hadn't been there, but coming back from the trip, that was what inspired us to like find the local organizations that were doing work there. And so like we kind of went there not knowing much about what was happening on the ground in terms of the conservation work, but having been there and then it can go the other way, right? You can read about it and then get inspired to go to a place, or you can also go to a place and come back and learn a little bit more about what's, you know, what's at stake there. And then, you know, kind of support once you're up, once you're home as well.
Katie
What are your thoughts on the fact that I feel like in recent years, we've been moving more and more toward like short form content. I'm not on TikTok, but the idea of like TikTok, you know, like one or two minute videos. Do you think that that is a net positive for conservation storytelling in that you can be exposed to things like you can, you can be exposed to a lot more things if you're only spending like a minute or two with each one? Or is it a net negative because no one can actually pay attention long enough to get deeply involved enough to care about something? Like, do you have thoughts on that? Because I feel like I really love like a long form. So like, I want to sit down for half an hour and watch something or I want to read a full essay or longer. But I also know that means that what I'm exposed to is going to be more limited because I'm only going to commit to these like, these handful of things versus like, a ton of stuff. What are your thoughts on that?
Jesse
Oh, I am definitely not a digital marketer. So I hesitate. Yeah. It's a, it's a good question. Like on one hand, I think any conservation message is a good one. And so I'm not on TikTok either. But I know that a lot of people are presumably younger folks. And so if there's a way to inform those people about conservation, just in general, then that in my mind is good. And also it's also necessary. Like you've got to talk to the people where they're at. I guess, yeah, the risk there is that the understanding is shallow and doesn't inspire action. And so that's, yeah, I don't have the best practices on how to turn someone from a TikTok video watcher into someone who goes out into the field or maybe reads the long form essay or ends up on the website or whatever the case may be. But we have to play. We meaning conservationists or anglers sort of need to play in all the channels where there's people watching.
Katie
I think that that's probably the only way to go forward is to kind of like move people where they're at. But I feel like in my mind, the goal would be to get people away from short form, not to ignore it, but to move people off of that. You know, if that's where they discover it, to get them beyond it. And I'm not really sure how that works because I don't deal with that kind of like media as I have experienced with. But in my mind, that would be the goal. And maybe somebody smarter than I am in terms of like marketing or social media has an idea behind how to do that. But that's just my kind of gut reaction to dealing with it.
Jesse
Yeah, I agree with you. And I think also getting eventually going from digital to in-person has that for both fly fishing and conservation, like at some point that has to happen. And so, you know, if the TikTok video can get someone inspired enough to, you know, drive them to a website where then they see an event that, is happening nearby that then they can go to, then like that to me would be a great sort of, pipeline of, of, you know, of a supporter.
Katie
What do you think are the big, I guess, categories of needed conservation work right now? And what I mean by that is like every watershed is going to be different in what specifically it needs. But when I think of big categories, I think of things like dams, blocking fish passage or habitat loss or pollution into water. Like that kind of stuff. the bigger picture that kind of, like most things would fall into one of these categories. What are the big movers that you think need to happen to really further conservation work along? If you had to name like, I don't know, three or five, if that's realistic.
Jesse
Yeah. I mean, the ones you named are on there. Yeah. Dam removals and sort of like ecosystem connectivity, you could maybe drop that into on a bigger scale, which then includes things like, you know, forest and land where, you know, wildlife corridors and, you know, wildlife can move from one place to another, whether that's in a river or on land. I mean, our public lands protection, that's a giant one. And so protecting those undeveloped pieces of wilderness, I would say is also paramount at this point. Another one that is maybe less talked about is like water quantity issues. And you mentioned pollution. And so water quality is definitely a big one. But, you know, as climate change, as climate is changing and, you know, there's increasing droughts, like quantities of water and just keeping water in the ground or in rivers in streams or in lakes that I think is going to be increasingly important and that one is the little the work is kind of quickly becomes very technical and kind of wonky because then you sort you get into water rights and things like that like it becomes legal in nature and so it's harder to to understand But that, I think, is a big one and is going to be increasingly important. I mean, you've heard the phrase, what is it? Whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting over. I mean, that's kind of what water quantity gets at.
Katie
That one strikes me as a difficult one. And not that all of these aren't complex issues. It's not as simple as just like, we get rid of dams and now the world's great again. But a lot of these have, I feel like, one kind of obvious, at least start of a solution. For dams, if there's dams that are not producing enough net benefit to warrant existing, it's like, okay, the obvious kind of step is to get rid of the dams and reconnect that passageway. If pollution is going into the water, the obvious step is to cut that off at the source and not let pollution get in the water anymore, and it will over time improve. I feel like water quantity is one of those ones that there isn't just a, like, we'll just get more water. You know, that's not like an obvious kind of overarching solution to that. And I feel like that's what makes it really tough is it's hard to point a finger at a single thing. Like, yes, people might be using more water in a desert than is logically warranted. But at the end of the day, we're also at the mercy of how much water comes out of the sky and lands in the watershed. in any given year. There's so many factors that it's not just like, oh, we just do this one thing and suddenly the quantity of water is fixed. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that beyond just, you know, like that is a thing. But I feel like it makes it an issue that's so daunting that I feel like a lot of people, not that they brush it aside, but it's hard to want to think about something like that because there's not a very obvious goal to work toward or an obvious goal in terms of like, this is what we need to do. We just need to do this step and then like things will improve. And I feel like it makes it hard for people to focus on it when there's other things that they feel like they can make a difference. They can, you know, go do a cleanup somewhere, for example. And that's just not, that doesn't exist the same way in the water quantity issue.
Jesse
Yeah. You hit it on the head. It is definitely much less acute than like a dam or a point source of pollution. And so, yeah, it's very complex. I also think what that type of work lends itself towards and I would maybe put this as an answer to your previous question in terms of general conservation work is the need for like collaborative partnerships across communities and across like sectors right and so as one example there's one thing that can be done to increase water quantity in stream is like improve irrigation efficiencies right so update technology But that requires collaboration between the irrigator or, you know, a farmer and the people who have the technology and the people who care about the river. And so for all of these issues, there is such a need for effective collaboration and partnership across groups like local communities and agricultures and tribes and conservation orgs and businesses. And so that's kind of sits on top of any of these conservation issues. And I think especially in the water quantity, because, yeah, it touches everyone from, you know, municipalities to business owners and irrigators themselves. And I think if you ask all those people, like, do you want, do you, would you rather have a healthier stream? Everyone is going to say yes, right? So like, on some fundamental level, all of those different groups are on the same page. And so if you can start from that as a kind of foundation for conversation, then that's where conservation work can get done.
Katie
I want to transition a little bit to kind of the fishing side of things. And I want to start that by bringing up, I think it's your book, Fly Fishing is Everywhere? Or The Best Fly Fishing is Everywhere? Where did you get that title? And I feel like there's got to be an idea behind this that I want to hear more about. So walk me through that.
Jesse
The Best Fly Fishing is Everywhere. I wish I remembered when that phrase popped into my head. But the general idea is that fly fishing is so subjective and we all experience it in our own ways. And I personally feel, have felt for a while that, you know, the pursuit of the most fish or the biggest fish or the best place to do this, or even like, excuse me, the best piece of tackle to do this is kind of antithetical to the practice of fly fishing. And that's not why I do it. So my title in one sense and the philosophy is to remind everyone that it is subjective and it has less to do with what you catch and how many you caught and where you are and more to do with the relationships that happen along the way. And also maybe pushing back at that, like how to get them and how to get the most and like the bucket list sort of mentality. So that's kind of the philosophy. And it's a collection of short stories. And sometimes there's fish involved. Sometimes there is a big fish. Oftentimes there are no fish or lost fish. But every story in there involves primarily connections and relationships, either to other people or to a river or to a place or even in many cases like to myself. And I think fly fishing provides all of us a way to learn about ourselves and how we tick and what we care about and how to be better people, too.
Katie
Do you think a bucket list is a worthwhile thing if you've created it yourself without kind of input from, like I'm thinking of things and no shade to this book. I think it's on my bookshelf right now. They're like 50 places to fly fish before you die. And, you know, there's valid reasons for all those places to be in there. The fishing is going to be good at all of them. But, you know, a lot of the reasons behind why those are included are things like number of fish or size of fish. And I don't think anyone would turn down catching more fish or bigger fish. But at the end of the day, like if I read through those, I bet there'd be plenty of places in that book that after reading through it, I'm like, eh, like that doesn't sound like what I would be looking for if I went somewhere. But do you think there's value in somebody coming up with their own list of places that they want to go and fish for whatever personal reasons they have? Or do you think that even the concept of coming up with a bucket list in general kind of takes your focus away from enjoying where you are right now and finding the beauty or the value in, say, your local stream?
Jesse
Yeah, it's such a great debate. And I think, I mean, at some point we have to, you can't, at some point we have to do something, right? So, you know, I don't, I think it's great. So I think, quote, bucket lists are okay, so long as that's not the only, so long as we're just not doing them just to check the box, right? And also, if you had a bucket list of like, okay, here's how I'm going to go catch the biggest brown trout in the world or the biggest fruit trout in the world or like that sort of stuff, I would maybe question the motivations behind. And so like, I think bucket lists are okay. So long as they're combined with just an understanding that great fishing is also down the street or behind the house. And you don't have to travel internationally or across the country to find the best fly fishing. That said, I like lists. I mean, I'm a list note taker in my day to day, right? And that's how I sort of get things done. And so there, I know that list taking, there is like a psychological element to, to, to that. And I'm a proponent of that. I think bearing in mind the motivation or the reason, the reason why, why the thing ended up on the list is important as well.
Katie
Yeah, I think, so I remember as a kid, I made a bucket list of things that I've since completely forgotten about. But I remember at the time, I just thought it was important to make a bucket list and And I would just pull things I'd find from like other lists that I was like, oh, I should do that. I should do that. And I would just like add them to my list. But it wasn't coming up when I discovered something I wanted to do. It was like me seeing other people's ideas and thinking like, oh, that's a good idea. And I feel like since then I have, I've scrapped whatever bucket list I made when I was like 10. But now I have another running list of things I want to do. But it's things that like when the idea comes to me, I'm like, oh, that sounds awesome. Like I would really love to do that. And now I put that on the list. And so now the list to me feels a lot more, I guess, organic or real. And I feel a lot more motivated to do the things on it because I feel like it's not me checking off a box that somebody else came up with and told me I should want to do. It's something that I'm like, oh, that rings true to me somehow. And so every time I see it on the list, I'm reminded like, oh, yeah, I thought that would be a really cool thing to do. I forgot about it. And now it's like back in my mind and I'm like motivated to go out and do it. And I do like a list because it keeps me going, I guess. Like it keeps me from getting in the run of the mill. Like I go to this place, I fish for two hours. I probably know what I'm going to catch because, you know, I fished here a hundred times. And like, not that I can't find joy in that still, but at some point it does sometimes feel like I'm going through the motions instead of like really getting something new out of it. And I think, I think a list kind of keeps me wanting. And it also keeps what I'm doing at home more fresh because that is something to kind of come home to in between these other kind of goals or excursions I've got on my list. So that's kind of my thoughts around the value of lists without getting sucked into or feeling like a slave to the list, I guess, which is what I feel like can happen if you just start checking boxes that somebody else gave you.
Jesse
Sure. That's great. I love that. I mean, I'm curious to know what's on your list if that's appropriate.
Katie
I'd have to pull it up. It's like various places. One that's been on my list forever. And this is kind of a, it's part of it's big fish, but part of it is remoteness. And that's like Kamchatka. I don't think that's happening anytime soon with how the world is these days. But like that one, I don't know if you've ever seen Eastern Rises. Yeah. Ever since seen that, like that's been on my list. And part of it, like I said, is big fish. But more than that, it's like this place hasn't been touched by society for the most part. And that doesn't exist a lot of places. Alaska also is kind of up there for the same reasons. But a lot of it's catching like little relatively unknown species somewhere that only exist in one place. I really enjoy fish that only exist in one little part of the country or the world and are shaped by that particular environment. Like they don't exist anywhere else. And because of that, they're kind of like iconic for that area. I really like that versus like, you know, I could catch a rainbow trout anywhere. I like catching fish in their native habitat regardless of what species it is. but especially these ones that exist in just a little pocket and don't really exist anywhere else. Because I feel like it kind of, I don't know like the word I'm looking for here, but it's kind of like an iconic thing for that particular place. It doesn't exist anywhere else or represent any other place in the world. I like, I like those little hidden gems. So things like that.
Jesse
That's cool. Yeah. I mean, I support that, but, but your philosophy behind that list is like really intentional and really, like you said, organic. So I think that's a great way to approach it.
Katie
Just to wrap up, I want to hear some of the stories you said you've got that kind of, you know, represent what we're talking about in this conversation, but also like the misadventure, which I feel like also comes back to like, at the end of the day, a big fish is fun. But usually what makes a good big fish story is all the stuff leading up to it. And like the fact that you got a big fish at the end is what makes it like the crown at the end of the journey. I know that you had some like misadventures that usually end up being the best stories at the end of the day. So I'll let you pick and choose what you want to tell me, but I'd love to hear some.
Jesse
Sure. Well, there's a story in the book that I'll read if you're up for it. That takes place in New Zealand in the backcountry. So if that's cool with you.
Katie
Absolutely. Let's do it.
Jesse
All right. Let me pull up my – okay. So the book, again, is titled The Best Fly Fishing is Everywhere. And there's three parts in there. The three parts are here, there, and everywhere. And so it's kind of the stories are separated into or grouped by kind of trips that took place near home, wherever that was. Or in the second part there, traveling. Or in the final section, everywhere, sort of more thematic things that can happen anywhere. So this is from the there section, and it takes place in New Zealand. It's called One Beer. New Zealand's hut system is an extensive network of public trails and cabins of varying sizes and conditions, providing lodging to anyone willing to make the trek. For those fond of old cottages, lodges, or fishing camps, they are sure to please. Some are better kept than others, and some house more rodents than humans, but all of them are worth a visit. If not to admire their distinctive designs and characteristics, then certainly to enjoy their surroundings. Many of the huts sit on worthwhile trout rivers as well, offering a temporary home base from which to fish multiple days or access water to remote for day trips. When someone first described the hut system to me, I couldn't imagine why anyone interested in backpacking would stay anywhere else. The system only got better when I learned that there was an annual pass. For the unbelievable price of $60, I could have unlimited stays at as many huts as I could hike to. As soon as I learned about the pass, I started planning fishing around the locations of the huts. The official hut system is managed by the country's Department of Conservation, and there are nearly 1,000 of them peppered across the North and South Islands. They vary in size from two bunks, bunks meaning beds, not bunk beds, to over 20. Most are equipped with the same standard furnishings, mattresses, wood stove, dining table and seating, candle or lantern lighting, outhouse, and a water source. The latter is sometimes piped inside the hut but can also be in the form of a water pump or even a nearby river or stream. That the huts take place of a tent, sleeping pad, and water for the entirety of a trip makes them ideal stops on backpacking trips. A number of the rivers I fished and huts that I stayed in were suggestions from my new friend and longtime New Zealand fishing guide Chappie Chapman. Chappie and I fished for several days shortly after I arrived, and he gave me a proper introduction to the country and trout fishing. He was generous in sharing his knowledge of fishing and geography, going so far as to review pages and pages of maps with me. It didn't take me long to realize that every circle he made was worth visiting. Located roughly halfway up the west coast of the South Island, one particular hut was at the confluence of a main stem and a tributary, offering two solid days of water to explore in both directions. Chappie winked as he marked it. The plan was straightforward. I'd leave my van in the gravel pit at the road's end, hike to the hut along the dirt track that followed the river, and start fishing from there. Though it was summer and daytime temps were high, the dense forest kept the undergrowth cool and damp. It had also rained recently, and at my feet the trail consisted of wide, deep mud holes that started out bad and got worse as I went. At first I laughed at the state the track, but my good humor was lost when I slipped and crashed in the middle of one. After following for a second time, I was soaked, covered in mud, and livid. I yelled into the forest, demanding respite. I cursed the track, my mud-filled boots, and the hut that wouldn't appear. Wet and muddy, the six miles felt more like 16. After the slog, the hut finally came into view. It sat in a small clearing overlooking the river. The door hinges creaked open, and I scanned the room skeptically before stepping inside. It had clearly been a while since anyone had visited. The air was dank, the bunks were dust-covered, and cobwebs curtened the windows and filled the wood stove. It was the only hut I'd visited that made me wish I'd brought a tent to sleep in instead. A few well-used utensils sat on a shelf next to a single can of spate's beer, pride of the south. I studied it and considered sampling, but guessed it to be lukewarm and likely skunked. So I decided to check out the river instead. As soon as I did, thoughts of the grueling trail instantly dissolved. From outside the hut, I looked down at the tail out of a quintessential South Island trout run and saw a large brown trout happily rising to mayflies. The paper white inside of its mouth sharply contrasted with its golden body. I watched as long as I could take it, then got my gear ready. One cast was all it took. He tipped my net scale at just over seven pounds, and euphoria set in. All was right and everything made sense now. The dreadful hike was just the cost of admission. The stellar fishing was the reward for my efforts, and I was just getting started. It would have taken a disaster to kill my high as I fished out the day. The weather was perfect and the trout were on the feed. When the sun dropped, I turned back and walked the riverbed toward that first fateful pool in the hut that sat on the bluff above it. I'd been hiking downstream for some time, lost in the memories of the day when I looked up and realized that I was totally lost. With daylight waning, I assessed the situation, then poked my head into the forest and spotted something familiar, the hellacious dirt track full of knee-deep mud puddles. I laughed again at its ridiculous condition, as well as the conflicting doses of karma I had represented. While I'd been compensated with some nice trout for my earlier efforts on the hike in, I was now paying the price for complaining about it. The track that I'd cursed earlier was now my only way back, and there was no escaping its muddy embrace. A certain thirst came over me as I neared the hut that evening. I opened the door, dropped my gear, and went straight for the can of spades. To my pleasant surprise, it was cold to the touch. I cracked it open, smelled it, and took a hesitant sip. It couldn't have tasted better. I toasted the river, the hut, the New Zealand, and chugged the rest.
Katie
I feel like we've all been in some situation like that not necessarily hut in New Zealand but the oh my god all of this is worth it and also also the the paying the price of admission but making that making it a fond memory because of how bad it was to get to the goods
Jesse
yeah that yeah that particular like trip was there was so much like yeah what does it mean or what is, is it worth that? Or am I getting paid for this? Or like karma was just like, there was so much of that circling in my head. Um, so yeah, that was a good one.
Katie
I don't know if all anglers experience this or, or just folks do a lot of like stuff in the back country and, and far from trailheads, but I always enjoy a trip more if the beginning sucks a lot, you know, like I don't want to look back on a day where I just had, you know, glorious fun from start to finish. It's always better if I kind of suffered for the beginning and, and then it got good at the end. That's always a better memory to me.
Jesse
It definitely tastes a little sweeter and makes for a better story, that's for sure.
Katie
Well, Jesse, where can people find you if they want to reach out or learn more about what Toronto Limited is doing or become a member? I assume most people who listen to this are members, or I would hope so. But if not, what should people do? What would you recommend for them?
Jesse
Sure, yeah. If you just go to the Toronto Limited's website, tu.org, that's a great way to kind of start to come up to speed. And than the website I would direct folks to. One would be like under the get involved section, there's a way to find your local chapter. So if you're not familiar with the local group of volunteers and members, that's a great way to start. And then the other one is sort of in the what we do section, there's what we call our priority waters. And this is sort of our overarching approach to conservation right now is that we have these priority waters spread across the country. So it's an interactive map that you can go onto and sort of, you know, zoom in, zoom out. And so you can find the watersheds and rivers near you that we have a lot of staff and work being done in. So those are two places on the TU side of things. For me, my website, jessielancerobbins.com. And I'm on Instagram, jessielancerobbins too.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I really liked the message you've got kind of focused on the average Joe, is what I'll call them and how they can get involved. Cause I do feel like sometimes conservation and the issues that it's trying to solve just feel a little daunting or like out of the hands of an average Joe. So I like the messaging that, you know, anything's better than nothing and there are really ways to get involved at any level and at any experience level and with any career. So just thank you for sharing that.
Jesse
Yeah, my pleasure. And like you said, conservation can go as deep as you want. And even just having an understanding for yourself that you can bring up in conversation is worthwhile. So it can start as simple as that, for sure.
Katie
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Jesse, for doing this. And I'm sure we'll keep in touch.
Jesse
Yeah, thank you so much, Katie. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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