Ep 133: A Deep Dive into the Driftless Region, with George Kaider
George Kaider (also appearing in episodes 95 and 119) is the owner of In the Flow Fly Fishing, a guide service in Wisconsin. George grew up fishing the Driftless Region for beautiful brook and brown trout, and the area continues to hold a special place in his heart. In this episode, we talk about how the Driftless Region came to be, what the landscape is like, access laws, species and techniques, and much more.
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Email: intheflowflyfishing@gmail.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast. Your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 133 with George Kaider on a deep dive into the driftless region. Everybody just wanted to hop in quickly and make a quick announcement before the show. We are rapidly approaching Flyathlon season, and for those who aren't familiar with the Flyathlon, it is a super fun race that happens a couple times each year, and it's based around running, fishing, and drinking beer, which are three of my favorite things. If you'd like to hear more about the race, you can listen to episode one of the Fish on Tame podcast, where I interviewed Andrew Todd, the founder of the Flyathlon. You can also check out episode 9 with Katie Mazzia and episode 121 where I catch up with Andrew Todd a second time. But in addition to being a really fun weekend with a lot of fun people, the Flyathon is also a fundraiser to raise money for native cutthroat trout conservation. So if you have a couple extra dollars that you would be interested in donating to a great cause to support native cutthroat trout, go ahead and head over to my website, fishuntamed.com, and you'll find a menu at the top called Flyathlon Fundraiser. That link should take you to the fundraiser and you can donate there. I do want to mention that Running Rivers, the organization that hosts the Flyathlon, is a 501(c)(3) organization and all donations are tax deductible. And any amount is greatly appreciated. This would be a great way to support the show and also support a wonderful cause for native trout. So that's all I've got for you and we can get on with the show. All right, well, you're an old pro at this point, so we won't have to go into your full backstory, but you just mentioned that you had gotten into fishing in the Driftless region, so maybe that would be a great place to start since that's where we're going to go with it. So tell me how you got introduced to the Driftless region and what you found when you first started fishing it.
George
It's kind of a cool story, Katie, because... So I grew up kind of on the wrong side of the tracks. I grew up an apartment kid, no dad. My grandmother was a Croatian immigrant who, she loved to fish, so she was the one who taught me how to fish when I was a little boy. And I met my wife when we were in college, and her mom was a doctor in a small town called Cross Plains, just north of Madison, Wisconsin. And it's right, the town is right on a famous trout stream called Black Earth Creek, right? Well, I knew nothing about trout fishing, nothing about fly fishing and they were gonna go do something mom and daughters for the day and I was I probably was 19 or 20 because we got married when we were 20 so I was probably right around then and my mother-in-law says you know there's this place that people come from all over the world to fish it's right down near this trout stream because I love fishing and so I'm like all right you know so I go down there and she had some fishing pole in her and you know some kind of spin rod in her garage and I go down there and I'll never forget it because I had no way just I was walking through this 40-degree war, you know the middle of summer, but it's all Spring Creek fishing and I see and I I see these guys fly fishing and I was like God, is that cool? I Kind of heard of it. But yeah, you're this is 1990, right? So there's no internet There's there's nothing you know, and I'm like, I'm like I want to do that, you know So I walk up to these guys, they're like grandpa age, you know, and they're, and they're, I'm like, is that fly fishing? Yeah. You know? So they let me cast a few times and I was like, Oh, this is cool. So anyway, I caught a few trout on a little MEP spinner, you know, and I'm like, I got to do this. So I go back and, and, and I'm like, I had like, I had like 50 bucks to my name, you know, we're college students and working and all that. But, um, I go to Gander mountain. It's a sporting good store. It's not even around anymore. At least I don't think it is. They all close down. And I buy this for 30 bucks. I buy this full rig. It's got a, it's a rod. It's a reel. It's got fly line and a leader attached to it. And this guy gives me a couple of flies. And the next day I go back out there. And of course I was in the trees and tangled in a mess within five minutes. And I'm going, Oh man, this is one that was, you know, what I thought it was going to be. So I go pick pick up a spin rod and then I kind of went back and forth between fly fishing and kind of like casting a spin rod like a lot of people do when they first pick it up. 'Cause there are no YouTube videos, there's no, how do you even get it into like a class back then? It's like, you'd have to see something and add it in a magazine or something. And so, but anyway, I decided I'm gonna go out and buy some books and some things and I just kind of self-taught. And then I met this other guy out there once And I was kind of having some trouble. And he really took some time to show me how to cast and what to do. And it was really cool. And ever since then, I've just been a fly fisherman. And all that started in Driftless region in Cross Plains, Wisconsin. People that are from the Midwest fly fishers, they're gonna know of Black Earth Creek. 'Cause it was a world-class fishery where people would fly in from all over the world. And then there were two major kills from some factories in that river that really set it back decades. And I think it might be pretty well established again now, but I don't spend much time there. So that was kind of how I got started in the driftless fly fishing. And now it's been 34 years. And so I'm out there all the time, either fishing by myself with my boys, my wife and I go out there and we'll just hike the creeks. and I'll fish and, and, and obviously I guide out there quite a bit too. So, um, trial fishing is a great, great way to get clients who have, who are beginners into fly fishing because they'll catch fish. I mean, they will always catch fish, you know, and, and, and many too, you know, because you can always put a, put a client, um, if they're struggling a bit, you can say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna put an indicator on, we're gonna, we're gonna put a nymph on, let's just get this sucker out there at 20 feet and let it drift. and we're going to catch fish. So that's exciting for them, you know, to learn how to fly fish, learn how to cast properly, but then also get on some fish. So yeah, the Driftless, it's a special place. It's almost hard to describe, you know, I would say I go out there now, not because I want to catch 112 inch brown trout and maybe a few 15s and 18s, but I go out there now for the beauty, for the ambience. I mean, I think people compare it adequately to like Scotland. When you think of like the Scottish Highlands, that's what Southwest Wisconsin is like, um, because the glaciers never hit there, you know, and so it's unglaciated and that's why it's referred to as the driftless. So, uh, it's, uh, it's beautiful. The small towns are so unique and eloquent and, uh, they all have a story around their trout fishing and trout streams and their cultural backgrounds. And I mean, God, I can go on and on, but it's really, really cool.
Katie
Are you able to explain how the lack of glacier movement through there has created what it is, and maybe how that compares to the surrounding landscape? You did a good job of describing it, kind of like Scotland, but compared to what around it that was affected by the glaciers, what's that difference like?
George
It's huge. So there's an expressway. If you look on a map, it goes from Chicago like Rockford, Illinois, and goes through up to Madison, Wisconsin, and then it goes across kind of to Eau Claire, Wisconsin over to Minneapolis. So it's a major expressway, right, that connects the Midwest. That's highway 94. And that is the dividing line between the Driftless and kind of the farmland of the glaciated area. And they put that highway right there because it's right at the edge of the hills, you know, and so it was real easy to put the expressway through the farmland. And then, but if you just look, when you're on that highway, you look to the right and it's going to be going northbound, it's going to be farmlands. And then as you get further north, it's kind of north woodish, but you look to the left and it's the bluffs and it's Urencoulee region, which are this incredible unglaciated region of Wisconsin where, where there, I mean, and the bluffs are anywhere between rolling hills of a hundred feet to 600 foot bluffs as you get closer to the Mississippi River. And every single valley has like the, the, the underground aquifer is so close to the surface that it just, it creates these, these spring creeks and these creeks just rise out of the earth and they collect water throughout the different springs on their way down to, of the different major rivers, typically the Mississippi River is what they're all flowing into. But what makes it unique is that the glaciers never came through there. And so they came to the south and to the east. And if you were to look on a map, it just leveled Wisconsin, right? And created this incredibly fertile farm soil, you know, and it deposited like this, this just the greatest earth ever for farming, But it also carved out these amazing lakes like Lake Geneva where I live, which is 21 miles around and it's crystal clear blue water. The entire lake is a spring lake. And so, and then like Devil's Lake is another example of a glaciated lake. But then you go to that driftless region and it's untouched by the glaciers. And so that's probably pretty typical then of what most of the landscape in Wisconsin probably looked like 10,000 years ago.
Katie
Do you know why the glaciers didn't hit there? Was there a reason that they veered a different direction? Or is it just random, and they just happened to go a different way and left this part untouched? Do you happen to know?
George
I'm not too sure on that. That's a great question. Maybe I did know the answer at one time, and I just don't recall right now. But the Great Lakes were carved out as well, obviously. And there's a lot to it. geographically, you know, looking at the geology of the area, I can't see any reason why it may have been just random.
Katie
Okay.
George
No. Yeah. You know, it may have been just the area just where it passed, you know, because like down here by me in Southeast Wisconsin, we have, um, um, kettle moraines, um, natural area and state parks. Um, there's several regions of it in Southeast Wisconsin, even into Illinois. And those kettle moraines are like the final place that the glaciers pushed to. And you can see they pushed up these big hills, but they're not the driftless. They're not the same. It was like the end of the road for the glaciers.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like without a mountain in the way, I can't think of why a glacier wouldn't be able to move through somewhere. And I'm not a glacier expert, so I don't know. But unless there's a solid rock in front of them, it seems like their path must just be, in some ways, random and just happened to leave that area untouched. But it sounds like a beautiful place to be left untouched.
George
Oh, God, it's so cool. And then the underground aquifer is all glaciated water that was left and melted and created the huge aquifer that's underneath Wisconsin. And that water, even the areas that was glaciated, still has springs, still has there's an area called the Sands region of central Wisconsin, for example, that's loaded with spring creeks. but it's totally different than the-- it's like flatlands, and it's all sand, these sand creeks. It's really weird, but it's still good trout fishing. You don't quite have the beauty that you have in the driftless, though.
Katie
What are the spring creeks like in the driftless? I assume kind of standard, like crystal clear water and stuff, but what's the substrate like? How big are they generally? Are they in every valley?
George
Yeah, I would say they're pretty much in most valleys, not every valley, but most valleys. They range in size from a couple feet, you know, where you can jump across, you know, holding, you know, brook trout and to some that are quite, quite large. Like, like, for example, two spring creeks come together and form the grant river in the Southern driftless. And I'm out in that area a lot because it's close to me. And, and that you can actually float that river, you know, I couldn't take a drift boat down it, but I could take my raft. I could take my hooligan, You know, I'm actually working on it. I get a lot of calls for doing float trips for trout, and that's when I want to die, because if I can get a good solid float trip for trout, that would be probably the river to do it. And so that that's probably maybe, you know, you're only talking 30 or 40 feet across, you know, so it's not not why, you know, and that would be about the biggest as you head to the to the up into the northern and Driftless region, the upper Kickapoo River is floatable and fishable for trout, but really only in the winter and spring, 'cause then it warms up too much and those fish head up into the little creeks. I would say a typical stream would range from 10 to 20 feet wide.
Katie
Okay. - Yeah. And I assume these are great fishing all summer long because they're spring fed. So I assume you're getting pretty cool waters. Unlike here, we have a lot of closures in the summer just to keep trout happy and keep them not too... We don't want to pressure them too hard in the hot weather, but it sounds like that might be the perfect place to go kind of midsummer when it gets real hot out if they're spring fed.
George
Yeah, the water temperature stays pretty consistent and only fluctuates a little bit throughout the entire year. So like on opener, like the first Saturday in January, we close it. All fishing in Wisconsin closes from October 15th till the first Saturday in January. Basically, I just say January 1st, but it's like that's spawning season for brown trout, so especially in November. And so we close during that time and there's no fishing, but then when it opens up again in the winter, you'll be out there and it's zero, 10 degrees or whatever, and that water temperature is pretty consistent. I mean, it'll drop, don't get me wrong. spring creeks don't freeze and so they it could be we can go through a week of you know 20 degrees below zero real cold harsh winter and you're still gonna find a ton of open water you know you might have some ice shelves and some spots and stuff you know but that water is gonna stay depending on how close you are to the springs you know in that 40 to 40 to 50 degree range most most of the year whether it's January or August you know so that's nice but you know we're we're coming out of a three-year drought now and so during this past three years the water levels have dropped a ton in the Driftless. In fact I have this really special off-grid Creek that I go to and it's just been devastated by the drought. So those underground aquifers are just need to replenish and refill and we've got to bring more water back because water the water table is very low right now and it's really affecting the fishing quite a bit. And it creates lower flows and then it warms the water, you know. So a typical water temperature, let's say a typical water temperature is 50 degrees in August, you know, it's been in the mid-50s and some creeks are even warming into the 60s. So that's unusual, but that's because of the low water we've had.
Katie
Have any of the creeks like disappeared or are they just lower levels?
George
It's weird because they're disappearing. I mean, that's, it's strange. Like the one Creek I'm referring to, um, it used to have a great flow and I'd go out there and we would catch tank brown trout and it just epic day. Right. And now it's a trickle and all these, these little fish are just kind of, kind of like in the pools and that's, I don't know how they're surviving, you know, but that's an example. Other streams are in better shape because maybe they have multiple springs that are feeding them and just are able to keep up. But we hope that now we're having a great spring rainy season and so we're hoping that it's going to really improve the fishing statewide.
Katie
Now do you happen to know, did these creeks have fish in them before trout were stocked in? I mean, it seems like every trout there would be non-native. Browns, rainbows, and brook trout wouldn't be there. But were there other fish in these creeks that have been either removed or maybe they're still there? Or were they just vacant until they put trout in?
George
No, so brook trout are native in Wisconsin.
George
Oh, they are? Yeah, brook trout are native. Oh, yeah, they're one of our native fish. And obviously, we joke around and say, and the smallmouth bass is our native trout. But yeah, brook trout are a native fish in Wisconsin.
Katie
Oh, I had no idea.
George
That's what makes them so cool. So the invasive species is the brown trout. Now here, this is a major issue in Wisconsin right now. And it's a controversial issue with fishermen and with the biologists and everyone is that the brown trout just take over these brook trout streams. And the brook trout have gone extinct in so many of our streams, or they're only way up in the headwaters and they're tiny little fish and they're not even worth trying to catch. Um, because the Browns eat the fry and they eat the eggs and, you know, and they just dominate, you know, they're just so much more ferocious than, than a brook trout in the Creek. And so, um, so yeah, we do have streams that are exclusively brook trout and we actually have orders from the DNR to kill Brown trout in those streams. Um, cause they want them out, you know, and, um, but then we have, we have Brown trout, which was brought to Wisconsin after they were originally brought to Michigan in the late 1800s on the Pierre Marquette River. Then from there they were brought over to Wisconsin shortly after, actually. And then they survive and thrive in our driftless creeks.
Katie
Do you have rainbows too, or is it mostly just browns and brook trout?
George
Yeah, all rainbows in the driftless or in Wisconsin. their tributaries are stockers.
Katie
Okay, but they do actively stock them there?
George
Not much. Only in a few streams and they usually only put those large broad stockers in, you know, 20 inch plus fish. But we get now in our tributaries in Wisconsin, we call them resident rainbows because we're out there salmon fishing, steelheading in the tributaries in the fall and in the spring, but we do get resident rainbows. So they're not necessarily steelhead. They're not gonna go out, they're not gonna grow to 20 pounds and come back in. And they stay in that 12 to 20 inch range. And so they're kind of a neat fish to catch too. And we'll run into those when we're fishing the tributaries, but not in the driftless, they're all stockers.
Katie
Okay. And is there any effort to remove brown trout waters and replace them with brook trout? I know you said that there's, you know, they want you to kill them if you come across them where there are brook trout, but has there been any sort of like concerted effort by, you know, government agency to come in and try to like restore these streams to only brook trout? Or are there some populations of browns that they're trying to just, you know, keep contained to where they are, but, you know, let people come and enjoy them?
George
Yeah, no, they are actively trying to restore the brook trout streams. And, you know, and the major thing that they're doing with that is trying to get rid of the brown trout. I mean, that's gonna be it. But then also cold water, you know, browns can survive in a little bit warmer water. And so as that temperature rises, if it gets into the mid 50s, upper 50s, the browns are gonna be fine even into the 60s. You know, we do have a couple of our spring creeks where that water temperature warms quite a bit. And, you know, I don't really fish them that much because, you know, I just think those fish, they kind of go dormant, they kind of disappear. They're a little bit harder to find. But as far as the brook trouts go, you get up towards like the Viroqua area, which became famous from a movie called "The Heart of the Driftless" that came out. You'd really enjoy watching it. It's really well done and put together. And then maybe that was out about 10 years ago. And up that area in Richland County, lot of nice little brook trout streams, super cool. So yeah, the DNR is just trying to control that. They're saying, keep the browns in these streams. We don't want them in there.
Katie
Did you ever have grayling native to Wisconsin? I think I remember hearing that they were native to parts of Michigan, and I think they were kind of wiped out, and maybe they were trying to bring them back. But was that ever anything that was in Wisconsin?
George
Not that I know of, but I do know that they were in Michigan for sure. Yeah, they were in Michigan. I don't think so. I've never come across it, and I'm a pretty involved advocate in the trout fishing community or the fly fishing community in Wisconsin, and I've never heard of that before, so I don't think so. But I know for sure they were in Michigan. And I know they're trying to reintroduce them, and so I don't know what's going on with that. I have to look into it. That's interesting. I haven't thought about that in a while.
Katie
Yeah, I hope they do. random little population over there. I don't know how they connected. You know, I assume there must have been some population band across either the northern US or Canada to connect them down to Michigan because I don't know how else they'd end up there and then on you know the western side of the continent. So yeah I wasn't sure if something trickled down your way or not but I agree I think you would probably know. It seems like a pretty cool fish to have around.
George
Super cool. I've caught them up in the Arctic Circle in Alaska but you know I'm gonna add to that story because you know of kind of the grayling but I'm a little bit different with that because you're just talking about brook trout. See, the Great Lakes used to have coaster brook trout. And if you do a little research on the coaster brook trout, they're basically like brook trout, like steelhead. So they live in the Great Lakes and then they they migrate to spawn in the rivers and they head back out and they get huge. Right. I mean, coasters were gigantic brook trout. And in the eighteen hundreds, they were fished out almost to extinction. And to, you know, and most of them sent to, to like the, the European aristocracy. I mean, that's, that's how the cuisine it was considered, you know, these coaster brook trout. Oh yeah. The history is amazing. There still are coaster brook trout in, in Lake Superior, but they only run on a couple rivers and that's it. And so right now in Michigan and especially in the UP of Michigan. I don't know about Minnesota on that side, but in Wisconsin, they are trying to reintroduce coasters. And right now they've reintroduced brook trout into our tributaries and they're hoping to get them to run and they're putting them out and trying to imprint like a steelhead would, because the steelhead and salmon were so successful. We talked about that in our last conversation. And so they're trying to do this with the coasters again and try to bring back those lake-running brook trout that are gigantic.
Katie
Is it genetically different at all? Could a brook trout become a coaster brook trout? Or is it something that is a different fish that they could go extinct and there would never be another one?
George
I don't know. I've heard they're different, but I've that about steelhead, then people say the steelhead are just big rainbow trout that find their way back. I don't know. I mean, I caught two on Sunday and I don't know. I do know that the coasters were unique because they did live in the Great Lakes and they did migrate. They did spawn in our rivers. Whether they're a different strain, I don't know. I need to look into it.
Katie
Do you happen to know if there was such a thing out to the ocean? You know, because like Steelhead, you know, the ones on the west coast are going to the ocean, the ones in the Great Lakes are going to the Great Lakes. But Brook Trout, you know, are down the east coast. Is there any version of that that went out to the Atlantic Ocean and came back? Or is this strictly a Great Lakes phenomenon?
George
No, I think there are. I think there's coasters out still like in Labrador.
Katie
Okay. Is that why it's so big?
George
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think those are coasters out there. Yeah.
Katie
I think so. Huh, well you learn something new every day. I had no idea this was a thing in Wisconsin. Yeah, because
George
I think I remember seeing some of the episodes of the New Fly Fishers. You know, they're out there. That's a Canadian-based show where they're out in Labrador and Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and they're catching coaster brook trout. I'm pretty positive, yeah.
Katie
Huh, yeah, I knew they got like massive up there, but I didn't know why.
George
Yeah, that would be why. Yeah, yeah. So they're trying to re You know what? I'll ask my biologist buddy here in Wisconsin if they're a different strain, because there still are coasters up in Superior. And so I wonder if they brought those down to try to get them to run and reintroduce them. I don't know the answer.
Katie
That's really interesting.
George
It's cool, I know.
Katie
Back to the driftless a little bit, we got off tangent, which is great. That was a really interesting
George
But it connects though, you know, it's like everything's going on here with the fisheries.
Katie
Yeah, for sure, that was awesome. But back to the Driftless, what is the public access like? Is it mostly just wild lands that are public and available for everyone? And are there a lot of roads and trails and stuff that make it easy to get around?
George
No. Here's the thing. That's a great question, because we have amazing angler water rights in Wisconsin, the best in the country.
Katie
Oh, I'm jealous.
George
Yeah, I know. I know the people out west are jealous. However, most of it is gonna be private land. Now, there's a couple of things with this. Well, first of all, most of the landowners are farmers. They really don't care. You know, go out there and fish, right?
Katie
Yeah, you're not affecting them.
George
Yeah, you know, but in Wisconsin, every bridge is eased. So you can put in any bridge and it's automatically eased. Now, in Wisconsin, the way the law reads is if once you're in the water, you're legal. So if I put in a bridge, it's automatically eased. I can walk as long as I want to and I am legal through somebody's private property. Now I can even get out and walk on their property. So the way the law reads is that, and whether you're waiting or if you're in a boat, if you come to a situation that you deem is unsafe, the law says you can get out, you walk back in as soon as you are able. So if you have to portage a boat, if you have to go around a log jam, that a hole is too deep to wade, you're legal to get out and get back in. So it's just fantastic. We are so happy with our water laws here 'cause of that.
Katie
Yeah, sounds very common sense of you.
George
Very common sense. 'Cause it's not like that in Michigan. So now here's the other thing though. So Wisconsin sells easements. And so it's not as popular now because once your land is eased, it's leased forever. So if somebody's gonna sell their property, the next buyer can't say, "Yeah, but I don't want fishermen walking my property." So it's my understanding that they can buy in, the DNR will sell them easements by the linear foot of their property, and they can take like a lump sum or they can divide it up over each year, you know, that kind of thing. I'm not quite sure what the rate is on that. I haven't ever really looked into or thought about it. But I would say a majority of our well-known driftless trout streams have pretty extended easements on them too. So now you can walk the banks.
Katie
Okay, so it's not a sea of public land, but it's also not restricted to the point that you have nowhere to go. Like you've got a lot of places to go, you just have to do it right and maybe plan a little bit ahead to get to where you're going.
George
Yeah, but it's so easy to know because all you have to do is just look. I mean, the DNR has this amazing online maps of the driftless and fisheries in Wisconsin that show you where the easements are, you know? And so it's not like it's difficult. You just gotta make sure you're legal. And then I've got streams out there in the driftless too, where I've just gotten to know the farmers, you know? When you're out there as much as I have been in the last 30 years, you just, you get to know people and their kids and that. And so I'm able to now get on water that other people can't because I've developed a relationship with the landowner. And that's how you do it. I can't tell you how many amazing stories I have over the years of just knocking on doors, waving and saying hello and walking up to somebody and saying, "Hey, I really wanted to fish that Creek. I really don't have a spot to get in. What do you think? You just have a conversation. I've never been told no.
Katie
I really miss that. I'm jealous of it in Wisconsin, but I remember it from Pennsylvania too. I remember as a kid knocking on someone's door, they had a giant lake that had trophy-sized fish in it, and I walked up and knocked on their door and asked if I could fish it, and they were like, "Sure, no problem." And out West, it is just not the case. The classic example I think of is Wyoming. I feel like that's the opposite side of the spectrum of you're worried that someone's gonna come out their front door with a shotgun if you touch a single square centimeter of their property. And Colorado, to be honest, is not that far behind, at least in terms of the legality of water access. Like even just what you have even if I couldn't get out onto their land, but just once you're in the water, being able to stay in the water. And that is just not the case here. So I'm really jealous. Quick question on the bridge easement. How far on the side of the bridge do you have to get in the water? Because unless you're jumping off the bridge, I assume that you can walk around the bridge and down into the water, but how does that work? Oh, yeah. How much area do you have to access?
George
So most of the bridges are... The easement is usually 10 to 20 feet, so off the bridge or off the bank, so you're fine.
Katie
Okay.
George
Yeah, it's not an issue at all. These are little creeks, so it's not like you have to hike down this massive bridge or anything. Sure. one lane or two lane bridge, you know, in the middle of nowhere. So but now accessing the land that's eased in harder to get areas, you know, that's where like knowing the landowner or, you know, just being able to hike the easement. So what I'll do, you can give me an example. I'll stop that point because you might put in a bridge, right? And then I might have the next mile of eased land. So I'll just get out and walk the bank. I might not even fish because I want to get to the uneased land that nobody else is going to get to.
Katie
Because they'll just fish right by the bridge. They could just start fishing right away and they have no reason to walk a mile. Yeah.
George
It's got to be somebody who wants to go out in Indiana Jones, you know? And that's what I do. So I'm out there and I'm going to go find that water where I think very few people are going to get. I don't care if I've got to hike for two hours to get to it. I'll get back in the water, you know, and now I'm legal, you know, and I can keep going.
Katie
This kind of brings us to the fishing itself a little bit, but is the fishing difficult? You mentioned walking to get to where it's not fished, which strikes me as what I would do in like a very heavily pressured area to catch fish that are maybe less heavily pressured, but it also sounds like there's an abundance of water. So talk to me about how busy it is. How pressured are these fish? How difficult are they to catch?
George
So it depends on the stream. The driftless is located, it goes down from Minneapolis south in Minnesota and in Wisconsin and into Illinois. And even the northwest corner of Illinois is still the driftless, out by Galena, it's a vacation town. And so you got the Minneapolis population, you got the Des Moines, Iowa population, you've got Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, Rockford. So like the, all these major areas surround the driftless region. And so some of the streams get pressured pretty heavy. You know, if you want to, if you want to get to some of the put-ins of the real popular then you're gonna deal on a weekend on a Saturday or Sunday you know you're gonna have to get there an hour before sunrise you know and get out there and get going because there might be six or eight cars there by you know 7 a.m. all with and I'm a Wisconsin guy but all with Illinois plates pretty much you know so you're gonna get a lot of Chicago you know weekend warriors coming up there and you know fishing our streams which is fine but but if you want to if you want to get off grid a little bit then just just do a little homework you know and go find some places where you know there I got I have rivers that the DNR doesn't even have labeled as trout streams you know and so in there just loaded with fish or they're declassified as a as a poor quality like a instead of like a you know let's say like a great a trout stream they're downgraded to a sea you know but they're really awesome you know and there is natural reproduction, you know, so they're right, class one. So I would say that it just depends on the stream. The closer to Chicago you are, they're going to get really hard. The northern driftless gets really hard by the Minneapolis anglers. But there's a sweet spot in there that I go that I go just past kind of where where the Illinois fishermen will go. It's an in-between area in Grant and Crawford County. and it just hardly gets hit. I mean, you could be out there in one of these valleys and never see another fisherman. So it depends on the stream we have. These are no secrets, but to give you a few. So in the southern driftless, you've got the Blue River, the Green River, it's called the Big Green and Castle Rock Creek. Those are hits really hard to get pressured. A lot of stocking, a little bit warmer temps. I got the green dozen, but the other two do. Those are going to have Illinois plates at every put in. Six or eight cars on a Saturday or Sunday. But just get off the beaten path a little bit, and you'll be all alone. It's pretty cool.
Katie
You may have already answered this based on what you just said, and also that you'll walk into Eastman, get out, and then get to the places that are less heavily pressured. But how difficult is it to escape the crowds by doing a little bit of walking. 'Cause like that's a complaint I hear about Colorado all the time is how crazy busy it is. And it is, but I also find that if I'm willing to walk maybe two miles, you know, I can leave 90% of the crowds behind and at least the people I'm gonna encounter back there are probably gonna be nice and friendly and not be throwing beer cans all over the place. You know, it changes once you get just a little bit in and it really doesn't take that much effort. Is it the same here where you're gonna have all these plates lined up and it's gonna look really busy but if you just walk for half an hour, that you'll be by yourself? Or do you find that some of these people coming out from Chicago and Minneapolis do kind of infiltrate into the intersections too?
George
No, you can get away from people real quick. Yeah, it's just a matter of getting up early and going, and getting a jump on it, and then doing some hiking. It'll slow you down if you've got to hike in the river because it's an uneased section of river. But if you can, if you can pop out onto easements and cover some ground, you can get away. Most people are going to show up at the pudding and they're going to start fishing right away. You know, it's hard to resist and the grandpas and grandmas that are out there, they're not going to be able to hike that far. You know, some of the young guns will and you know, I mean, I'm 54, but I'll still go do anything so it doesn't matter you know to to go find that that special fish or that special spot but um yeah you got to work at it you got it you got to want it if you want to get into some good good fishing and the other thing too and we can talk more about this also well you asked about the river the creeks themselves they change complexion quite a bit so when they you know and so when they start off from the springs and you can go to the headwaters and there's You can watch the water come right out of the ground. It's you know, it's super cool. And then you've got that upper section. You got the middle section. You got a lower section of the creek. And as these creeks start dropping off the bluffs and most of them are heading into the Mississippi River. I mean, that's the drainage for a lot of them, at least some of them. They may drain into the Kickapoo or some other rivers, but they start to warm up a bit. You'll be in a threshold between like brown trout and smallmouth bass. And it's really an interesting deal because the huge browns I'm talking like little creeks, but like 20 to 30 inch browns will be down in those lower sections and they're eating chubs. They become meat eaters then. So they're not they're not little dry fly. They're not eating nymphs. They're eating chubs because that water is warm to now. you won't find chubs that far up in those trout streams. You'll start to run into some smallmouth bass that come up from the rivers and it becomes a really unique situation. And so that's super fun. I do that a lot in the winter when those big fish tend to move down into those lower sections. It's super cool.
Katie
Do you have like a chub streamer?
George
Yeah, a little silver thing pretty much, you know. Yeah, well, you know, I'll tell you, I've got this is a funny story, but my boy and I were fishing out in the driftless and, you know, we got we got these we just I've got a little camping spots everywhere. You know, I just I know where to camp for free and just find these little pull offs. And I got this farmer lets me camp on his property out by Lancaster, Wisconsin. And there's this bar in Lancaster, we go in and get a burger and have a cold beer. And, and the guy behind the bar comes up to me and goes, "Yeah, you guys fishing for trout?" "Yeah." He goes, "You ever tried the Mississippi River?" I go, "There's no trout in the Mississippi River." He goes, "The hell there isn't." He goes, "I used to catch huge trout in the Mississippi River." I go, "Come on, you got to be kidding me." So then he walks away. I'm like, "This guy's full of it." I go, "What are they doing down in the Mississippi River?" He walks away, comes back back about 10 minutes later and he goes, "I don't know, they're just swimming around." (laughing) I go, "There's no trout in there." He goes, "Oh yeah." He goes, "Go down there and fish." So I start fishing the mouths of these creeks, right? When they're dumping into the Mississippi River. And sure enough, there are huge browns down there. That's where they're at, actually. You know, and they're meat eaters. They're hunting, they're eating chubs, they're eating minnows, they're eating stuff. They're not eating little mayflies and little bluing olives, you know? And so, yeah, he was right. It's a pretty cool thing. And so, you can get really experience all different kinds of fishing out there.
Katie
Do you ever find some of these larger fish, you know, lost kind of up in the upper sections of the creeks? Or is it pretty reliably, I think you said like a 12 to 15 inch kind of range once you're up in kind of the more headwatery areas?
George
Yes. And so, you know, you can go out to the driftless and like if I take a client who knows how to fish, we can, we can have a hundred fish day. I mean, I've had dozens of hundred fish days out there, but yeah, they're going to be in that 10 inch to 15 inch range. Most of the fish there, um, you're going to get that 16, 18 inch fish, you know, but you gotta go hunting for those, those 18 plus those 20, those twenties and you gotta go find them and you gotta throw streamers and you can't be mucking up the water, and so you might be casting from a stump or from laying down your stomach on a bank, you know, covered in mosquitoes. And I mean, you gotta get down and dirty if you want to get those big fish, you know? And you might get lucky with, you know, catching them on a little, you know, nymph or dry or something, but yeah, for the most part, they're going to be in structure. They're going to be kind of in those lower regions. And you got to get to them, you know. So I'll fish them downstream. The bigger fish with with a small streamer pattern and, you know, with a with a short sink tip, you know, like a seven and a half foot sink tip and just short, tiny one foot leader and get get that get that fly down, get it under wood and stumps and stuff. And God, it's amazing what you'll find.
Katie
Is it mostly sight fishing?
George
No, I mean, it can be, you know, it can be depending on the clarity of the creek. Some of them are more clear than others. You know, some are gin clear and some are just have maybe a little bit more tint to them because maybe they have a little more runoff. You know, it depends on the farming, what's going on around there, you know, and how close that farmland actually gets to the bank of the creeks.
Katie
Yeah, I guess I'm torn between picturing like a crystal clear spring, but also forgetting that there's like agricultural runoff at the same time. So these two things are kind of working at the same time.
George
They are. But there's valleys where there might not be farming, there might be cattle, for example, right? And now the cattle might... And this is something you run across in the driftless that people don't always think about. And I have to tell my clients this all the time, is that we might have to go to... we might go to one spot and just high tail it to another because there's a herd in the water. You know, so if there's a herd of steer in the water upstream of us, that water is gonna be gunked and you're out of commission, right? So it's like, and you can't control any of that, you know? And if the herd's out, there might be a bull out, there might be, you know, and so you've got the agricultural side of it, but then I would say you also have more in the line of these huge herds of steer and cattle. You know, I've been chased by a bull, I've been chased by a herd of steer. I got a picture up on my Instagram with a herd of about 50 steer just staring at me as I jumped the fence and looked back down on them. Yeah. I chased them about 500 yards.
Katie
Yeah, get out of there.
George
Oh yeah, oh yeah. So, you know, all of that can contribute to the clarity of the water, you know? And so that's what kind of changes the game a little bit. But if you want crystal clear spring water and some amazing dry fly fish and we got it, you know, I mean, it's, there's certain streams that just have a good hatch. They're just, I call them just dry, they're just our dry fly streams, you know? And for whatever reason, those trout just look up and they wanna go after dries, you know, pretty much all year. And there's other streams where you're wasting your time. You know, you're just, if you wanna catch fish, you gotta go down below, you know? Just nymph for 'em and have fun doing that too. So we got it all, that's for sure.
Katie
What is your hatch schedule like? You know, give me a rundown on like the yearly hatches.
George
So when the season opens in January, we're gonna have a midge hatch and they're tiny. They're gonna be in that, you know, 20 range, 20, 22 range, really, really tiny. I'll tie 18s, but I don't tie anything smaller than that. You know, and the midge hatch is pretty much gonna be the winter hatch. Then in the springtime, the first bug to really come alive will be the blue winged olives. And we're still in that season right now, but we're kind of coming out of it, but we're transitioning into our caddis season. And so right now the caddis is just phenomenal. It's also the best trout fishing I've had in my life. I've been in the driftless in mid April and into May for the Cadiz hatch. Then we get a variety of, depending on where you are in Wisconsin, and I know we're focusing on the Driftless, but if you go to Northern Wisconsin, some of those free-stormers, they get like these big hex hatches and all kinds, just a different ball game. So I'm speaking strictly to the Driftless area. Then we'll go to the Cadiz hatch, and then some creeks are gonna get a really nice, like Sally Mayfly, you know, And that's gonna be, that's really cool too. 'Cause that's a larger yellow fly. I mean, it's really neat. And that can be pretty prolific hatch too. You know, and so that's kind of it. Once the caddis and the mayfly are kind of out of the picture, then it becomes terrestrial season and you're pretty much throwing hoppers if you want to stay on top, you know, or you're throwing streamers or nymphing, you know, like we all do, but it'll become pretty much hopper season. I know a lot of guys throwing like floating ants too.
Katie
Now do you get any more hatches in the fall, you know, past terrestrials? Or I know you did say the season ends, so I don't know if that kind of cuts things off before hatches, like any other hatches become relevant, but do you get any sort of like fall hatches?
George
No, we really don't. So as we head into the fall, it's pretty much going to be still hopper season for us.
Katie
Okay.
George
Yeah, yeah. And then we just don't really get that down here in the Southwest Wisconsin or even by me. Now they might up north, you know, in some of those trout waters that I don't know as well. I just don't fish them as much. When I go up north, I'm pretty much fishing for pike and smallmouth and musky. So I don't really trout fish too much up there, but I know they get a way more variety of hatches up north though than the driftless does.
Katie
Now when you go out trying to fish dry flies primarily, are you throwing a dropper on? Or are you of the belief that a dropper makes the dry fly less effective? I've been kind of surveying people, because I'm a huge dry dropper person. But I have heard the argument that a dry dropper does neither one quite as well. So I'm just curious, are you a dry dropper guy?
George
That's funny, because I was just talking to my buddy about that the other day. We were steelheading. And he throws a two-fly rig. So he'll throw an egg and then below that, he runs like a nymph. I forgot what he had on there, but some kind of a nymph. And I'm like, man, you're always on, and he's a great fly fisherman, but he's, you know, he can get tangled up when you're throwing two flies, you know, especially if it's windy, you know, so the conditions can change things. So I'm actually a one fly pony, so.
Katie
Okay, I'll mark you down.
George
Yeah, mark me down, that's me. I mean, here's the deal, right? So I'll be out with, whether it's buddies or clients or whoever, some good clients wanna throw a dry drop or whatever, they're tangling while I'm still fishing. And I'm good and I'm tangling. So I'll try a double rig once in a while and all that. And I used to, I felt, I just got to the point where I didn't see it as being more productive. I just felt like it was just kind of like, all right, whatever. But I never got more out of it. I never caught more fish. Now my middle son, Christian, he's a dry dropper guy. So he loves it. But no, not me.
Katie
Yeah, I could see the idea of maybe starting with a dry dropper. And once you figure out which one they're kind of going for more, to take whichever other one off and kind of use it. The same way people might throw multiple nymphs to figure out what they're eating. For me, three is where I'm kind of over it. Three is just asking to be tangled every single cast. Two, I can usually get away long enough without a tangle that it's worth it for me. But yeah, like I said, I'll have to mark you down as not a dry dropper guy. I'm trying to get a feel for what people think of it.
George
Yeah, but in the Driftless, for example, though, like in the summer months, it becomes like hopper dropper season. So we get a lot of people doing that. And so you'll tie a big hopper, like a stimulator kind and with a nymph below it and they do that. Don't get me wrong, I'll still do it, but it's kind of rare for me. I kind of get into a mode when I'm fishing. Like what am I doing? Am I dry fly fishing or am I, 'cause for me, I think it affects the way you cast. For example, in the driftless, and maybe I'll clear, this will help clarify what I said earlier. This is Spring Creek fishing. So we're not, you know, you're not fishing like one of your rivers out there Colorado, we're going to be we're going to be roll casting most of the time, you know, and so I just don't think that roll casting that double rig, I mean, I can do it pretty good and all that, but most of the time folks are going to get tangled up. It just it just is. And and you got to be able to put it in different spots on these little creeks, you got to be able to break, I always break a break a creek or river down into the thirds or fifths, you know, so, you know, looking at it as a clock, you know, and so, you know, we're going to start from left to right or right to left or maybe right down at 12 o'clock, you know, using the clock for where your chest is and where you're standing. And, you know, I don't know, I think it throws folks off with accuracy and being able to make that roll cast and really set up that D loop and that anchor. I don't know, I just see a lot of problems with it from a guide's point of view, you know.
Katie
That's fair, yeah.
George
You know, and so maybe that's, but even with myself, I just, you know, it's just something I've kind of gotten away from and it hasn't changed my productivity.
Katie
It's funny to hear your different perspective on this. And I feel like I hear this all the time. Just hearing different, listening to podcasts about fishing and talking to people about it. People have so many avenues to the same conclusion. So I would say that I roll cast more with a two fly rig because I feel like I'm less likely to tangle up than if I'm doing like a full overhand cast, like worrying about keeping my loops tight. You know, if I don't have a tight loop, then the whole thing wraps around itself. So I'm always like, well, I've got a hopper dropper on, so I'm just going to kind of like flick it out there a little bit and not get tangled. So it's really funny that we're both trying hard not to get tangled, but we do completely opposite things to achieve that. And I hear this all the time where people will say, in order to such and such, I do this. And then I hear someone else say for the same goal, they do the exact opposite thing. And it's just like, I size down to stick out. I size up to stick out from the regular bugs. There's just so many different avenues to reach the same handful of goals that we have. So it's just funny to hear your approach for that.
George
It totally is. I guess I was kind of speaking more from my guiding perspective.
Katie
Sure.
George
You know, like, I just don't feel like re-rigging all day long,
Katie
Katie. It just gets horrible. Oh, I totally understand. Yeah.
George
It's, you know, like I'm steelheading right now and I'm re-rigging all day long, you know, and, and from tangles to snags to, and it's part of the game. I get it. I don't care. But when you're on the driftless and it's summer and it's 80 or 90, and it's like, the last thing you want to do is just be sitting there and re -rigging all day because you're, you're, somebody can't do what we're trying to do. I mean, I've been doing it for 34 years. So like, you know, and I'm not tooting my horn, I can do anything with a fly rod. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter. I can, I can sit there and roll cast 50 feet with a triple rig. And more times than not, I'm not going to tangle all day, but that's cause I do it every day of my life. You know, it's like, you know
Katie
It's also different when you you know, you're like, I was stupid. You know, I didn't look behind me, and I got caught in a tree, versus you just trusted somebody, and they didn't even think to look back behind them. It's just
George
Right.
Katie
You want to just make it easier on yourself. You know, put the odds in your favor that you're going to have a good day by just keeping it simple. Let them just learn with something easy that it's going to be hard to fail on, but we'll still have success. I totally understand.
George
Yeah, and there's so much that goes into it. I mean, even on the driftless, but also like right now, well, I know we're talking driftless, but steelheading too in the spring. Like, so if we're nipping, if we're indicator fishing, right? There's times where you've gotta be able to reach mend, you know, and there's times where you gotta be able to stack lines, stack bends, you know, and feed line and keep that thing drifting and keep it going. And, you know, it's just not a matter of throwing it out there 20 feet and let it come to your ankles and recasting. If you wanna be successful and catch a lot of fish, so out in the driftless, you'll get some nice runs where you can make some nice 40 foot casts, and you wanna be able to stack some men's into that. You wanna be able to keep that thing drifting natural and there's a lot more technique to it than I think people realize. And I've got two things that I call reach men. Obviously there's a cast that's a reach men coming across your chest and putting in a mid-air mend. But then also I actually teach a reach mend, I call reach mend where we're gonna throw a mend in, raise our rod tip and complete the circle with the rod tip, but then also reach our arm forward at the same time. And what that does is that stacks line on the water. And the more I reach mend, reach mend, reach mend, I'm stacking that line. And now I can get more out of my drift, you know? And so it's a very important steelhead technique. But it applies to the driftless as well. So it's just hard to do all that when you're also trying to do that with a double rig. So that's kind of where I'm getting more to it sometimes.
Katie
Well, George, I know we were going to talk about kind of late summer tactics because that's when this is going to come out. But I think we actually filled up an entire episode with driftless talk, which is awesome because getting a deep dive on an area I've never been is always just fun to hear and learn about places I haven't done. I definitely need to come out and try the driftless, but maybe we'll save the seasonal stuff for next time. I'll have to lure you back on again. I think you're one of the highest repeated guests at this point. But I may be bugging you again.
George
Thanks, I love it. Hey, anytime we can talk fly fishing, Katie. It's awesome, you know. Yeah, because the late season driftless, though, we did address, and that really becomes more that hopper season, you know, hoppers and nymphs and obviously streamers too, but that's primarily it. Have you seen video or pictures or anything on the Wisconsin Driftless?
Katie
I've seen pictures of it. Do you have any movie recommendations? I know you mentioned a movie earlier, but do you have any good fly fishing films that do a good job of portraying the Driftless and what it's like there?
George
There's that kid on YouTube that was living in Madison that his YouTube station got really big. I don't know him, super nice kid though it looks like. He's got a great... It's called Fly Fish All Season or something. It's got a lot of driftless videos. But I would say watch The Heart of the Driftless. You can probably get it now, watch it for free somewhere I would imagine. It might even be in the...
Katie
It's a fly fishing film?
George
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Katie
Okay.
George
But it's also, but it also is about the driftless region, the non-glaciated. They get into the, everything from the, like we talked about with the geology to the fisheries. So to the work of the biologists and the DNR, it's pretty cool. It's a great video.
Katie
Oh yeah, it sounds great. I'll have to check that out.
George
Yeah.
Katie
Well, just remind people where they can find you. I know you've got a guide service. So feel free to plug yourself, your website, whatever you want.
George
Yeah. So I run a guide service out of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. It's called In The Flow Fly Fishing. And we are a vacation town, pretty much the vacation town of the Midwest. It's right between Chicago and Milwaukee, and it's a beautiful area. And I guide from driftless trout to smallmouth pike and muskie all the way to salmon and steelhead. incredible fishery here in southern Wisconsin.
Katie
And you might have the most diverse species lineup of anyone I talk to here who just really does it all. That's awesome.
George
I know it's such a, yeah it's such an amazing thing. I have to pinch myself sometimes because if I were to say to somebody if I would say southern Wisconsin is world class. They look at you like you're a know, you just you don't see this. Even Michigan doesn't have what we have, you know. And so, it's just pretty cool. Like, northern Wisconsin doesn't even have it the way we do down here. So, it's a little bit different game there because you go five, six hours north and now it's a lot colder. It's a different climate. It's different, all different conditions. And so, it's pretty special that I get a chance to fish these waters and help people become better.
Katie
That's awesome. Well, George, thank you again for humoring me a third time, I think now, and I'm surely pestering you again in the future. Um, I just really appreciate all you've done and helping me learn about all the, all the species you have up there. It's just been a ton of fun.
George
Sounds good. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Uh, thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. Um, you'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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