Ep 134: Women’s Backcountry Adventures, with McKenna Hulslander
McKenna Hulslander is an avid backcountry angler and the owner of Outcast Adventures, an outfitter dedicated to getting women out into the backcountry to fish, raft, and explore the beautiful Montana wilderness. In this episode, McKenna and I talk about how women’s backcountry trips differ from co-ed trips, what she has learned working with anglers of all skill levels, the gear she uses when she’s on personal trips in the backcountry, and her experience getting into a bush plane crash.
Outcast Adventures: link
Instagram: @mckennahulslander
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast. Your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 134 with McKenna Hulslander on women's backcountry adventures. I just wanted to hop in and say a quick thank you to everyone who donated to this year's Middle Creek Flyathlon and put on by Running Rivers. We raised over $70,000 for Rio Grande cutthroat conservation in Colorado this year and that would not have been possible without all your help. So again, thank you so much and with that let's get on with the show. Well I I love to get us get started by finding out where people got their start in the outdoors and into fly fishing. So I'd love to hear how you got introduced to the sport and maybe how you got introduced to that country specifically because that seems to be your bread and butter. So walk me through how you got into these things.
McKenna
Yeah, I think just coming from a family that spent every waking moment outside, I don't think I had a chance to not even fly fish or camp or hike or any part of that lifestyle. So just my dad and my brother, I have a four-year-old older brother. Four years older older brother I should say he's not four years. And he just I just was trying to keep up with him every chance I could and so he spent a lot of his time outside fishing and hunting and hiking along with my parents and so I just naturally followed along. I think that as a kid growing up in like a western region state you have there's so many opportunities to to be outside and be on the rivers and be in the mountains and so it was and specifically in the backcountry I think that you know when you kind of throw yourself out there at first the more you jump in and the more you learn and the more you enjoy it the farther you want to go and the longer you want to stay and so just for the opportunities in Montana I think I just I couldn't find where I spent too much time on the river so I still haven't found that yet but yeah that's kind of how I started.
Katie
What age did you learn to fly fishing. It sounds like you started pretty early.
McKenna
Yeah, I think I fished pretty early, but I really jumped into fly fishing. I really tried to be self-sustaining when I was probably about a freshman in high school when I really dove into knots and bugs and things. I'd fly fished before that, but it was more parent-led or my brother put everything together for me.
Katie
Did you start with fly fishing or did you pick up a conventional gear rod before that? It sounds like you just started with it, but I feel like most people don't.
McKenna
I can never remember using a conventional rod or a regular spin rod. It's mostly, I can only remember fly fishing. I think that's just because I don't know if my dad had ever used a regular rod. I've never seen my brother use a regular fly rod or my grandpa for that reason. I think just fly fishing is the norm and maybe the expectation.
Katie
Okay. How did you go from that to where you are now with your business? Is it an outfit or I don't know what you'd call it, but how did you start that?
McKenna
To be honest, it's amazing how much of a correspondence it is with A River Runs Through at the movie, how cheesy and classic. Because the older brother goes and leaves Montana and then the younger sibling is like, I'm just going to stay and spend all my time fishing." That's kind of how it worked. I just got into fly fishing and just loved it. Like I said, I couldn't spend enough time and so wanted to spend as much time as I could and figured out I love guiding. I love helping people through the process. I think when I started fly fishing, it was just like I said before, that balance in my life. I was an athlete at the same time, so I was pretty stressed. fly fishing just brought so much balance and perspective. And so getting into guiding and helping people kind of have that balance in their own life has been super instrumental. And so I got into guiding and then just had so many requests for like women's trips. Like people my age, women older as well, they want to jump in and fly fishing and they didn't have necessarily the roots of like a brother or a grandpa or dad to help them through that process or just didn't didn't have an easy way to start. The more that I got into guiding, the more I saw just an opportunity to maybe fill a gap or a space to help women get into something that they might already be interested in. That's kind of how it started. Then just with the base of love of fly fishing to also creating a community for people who want to enjoy it as well.
Katie
Was it easy to start? Did you have any sort of existing clientele? Because you said that people were kind of requesting this in some way. Was it easier than maybe it could have been to break off and do this because there was a need that obviously existed because people were asking for it? Or was it still super daunting to break away and start doing your own thing?
McKenna
Yeah, I think it's been a little bit of a process. I think, you know, when you kind of take this market of outdoor people, like the fly fishing community, and then you cut the percentage down to women or women who would want to do something like this, like you're cutting even smaller margin of people. And so oftentimes when I'm telling people or people are looking at the trips, they think they have to be experts in fly fishing, and that's not the case. So you're really the percentage of people who are interested in or percentage of women that are gonna come and participate is pretty small. And so it's been kind of a little bit of give and take to reach that market and reach those people. But it's been so satisfactory because I've really just gotten to meet so many great women that have just been like so appreciative of the opportunity and the adventure that they get to have. And so it just kind of fills up your own cup when you do hit that market and you do see those stories and have have people just so grateful for what they get to experience. And so it's always give and take. I think with anything new that you try to start, especially business-wise, there's going to be some rocks and bumps in it. But so far, so good.
Katie
What were the specific complaints- maybe it wasn't complaints, but when women would request this or inquire about it, did they have reasons that they wanted to do a women's only trip? Did they feel intimidated by being more of a mixed setting? Were there any patterns that they mentioned to you about why they wanted this?
McKenna
Yeah, I think that out of my experience with guiding, with guys, if you were going on a full day fly fishing trip with guys, they would talk maybe 10 minutes of it and they would just not talk for the rest of the eight hours and just be dedicated to catching the absolute biggest fish they could find. women kind of want to make it more of a connective piece and they want to maybe -- I don't want to say more social and maybe take away from their dedication to fly fishing. That's not necessarily it. I think they just come at it from a different perspective. And so oftentimes when I was talking to women doing these trips, they wanted like the connection piece. They wanted the experience. They wanted to learn to fly fishing beyond the river, but they also wanted to feel like they're in a group that they can kind of let themselves be be beginners and let themselves fail and have people that can help them through that process. Because sometimes like, and this isn't always the case, but sometimes when we are with guys and we're fly-fishing or we make mistakes, sometimes just our of our own embarrassment or their willingness to kind of tease us about it can kind of like, some women just don't do well in that situation. And so I think that there's just an added comfort when we do like all women's trips because I feel like no matter their level they they feel okay and like I'm safe maybe in that position. And then also what's so cool about it is you know the lens that I had when I first started was it's this is just going to be fly fishing but then as I've developed further it's amazing to see just the encouragement and uplifting voice that is is heard throughout the group. You get these people that are complete strangers at the start. And then by the end of the trip, they're encouraging each other. They know their kids' names and they know the path that they're on in that specific season of their life. And there's just so much encouragement. And I think that's what's so cool about the trips is, yeah, we get a fly fish and we get a camp and we get to do these fun things that we all enjoy. But at the same time, we've now found this community that supports us and is like going through life together in essence.
Katie
Yeah. And it sounds like you do kind of like larger group trips now, which we can get into when we talk more about what kinds of trips you take. But were the trips you were taking before that they had these concerns, were they larger mixed groups like that? Because I picture most guiding being one to two anglers, and most of it's people coming with the person they brought. So it might be a husband and wife, but for the most part, it wouldn't be a giant mixed group of men and women. It sounds like maybe it was because otherwise they wouldn't have had these concerns. Am I reading that right?
McKenna
No, that's exactly it. Okay. Oftentimes, you'll see a full day trip, you'll see a husband who's dragging his wife out because he wants her to come and participate in something that he likes and he thinks that she might like it too, which is so sweet because a lot of times the wives are like, "I want to give off the appearance that I'm fly fishing. I don't really care." (laughing) But I think you just change everything when you're in a big group. It's almost like you see this, they have this belonging, they have this team kind of feel. So if I did it for just two women, or three women, or four women in a group, it wouldn't have that same connection, I think, and that belonging to a group. And so, yeah, I think a lot of women come to OutKast because they, oh, I had a husband or I have a boyfriend or a brother who introduced me to the outdoor world and then they kind of find their belonging with like, oh, like these are my people and this is the group that I belong to. Not just with OutKast, but it was really cool this last weekend, I was in Minnesota doing like a, the fly fishing women of Minnesota had a field trip day and it was like downpour rain, super cold, and it's like 7 a.m. and I pull up And there's like 50, 60 women out here going to go fly fishing. And it's like, wow, OK, I'm talking to these women. They're like, this is just my group. This is where I belong. I love these people. And I love being out here. I love fly fishing. And it was just amazing to see. And so I think a little bit of Outcast has that family dynamic and belonging that kind of just give people that perspective.
Katie
Yeah. How do you take such a large group that might be mixed abilities? Like you might have somebody who's their first time out. You may have somebody who's been fishing for 30 years. How do you manage a large group with that disparity? 'Cause different people are gonna have different needs. And with that many people, I imagine you're kind of like running around. You don't wanna spend all your time focusing on one person just because they need more help, but really they do need more help. So how do you balance that and manage the different experience levels that you get?
McKenna
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that part of being a guide is challenging to your clients and just keeping that like challenge level there, no matter their level. So if someone's just starting, you want them to get the basics, but still challenge them to learn and grow and understand. And the same thing if you had an expert coming out that already had casting down or bugs or rivers and hydraulics and those things, still challenging them in different ways. And so I think what I like to do when you kind of run into experts is, people may be more experienced. You just you want to let them struggle maybe a little bit more on their own because then they become more independent and then they kind of sustain that love for it. If you're constantly giving them success and this is to anybody at any level if you're constantly causing the success for them then they don't get to enjoy that by themselves. And so just keeping them challenged I think is a huge part of everyone's overall appreciation and love for it. So if you have you obviously have a wide array of experiences with such a big group and what's great is you know we will fly fish from the raft and so a lot of beginners and experts can feel comfortable you know approaching different you know parts of the river from the raft but I also like to give clients the opportunity to get out and wade the river like jump into themselves and that's a huge part of the challenge pieces. You know, can you get, can you spot the rocks and the pockets where the fish are and can you get there by yourself and make that cast and see that bug and all the different factors. So I would say like for the beginning, beginner women, I like to be encouraging and a little more hands-on and like really jump to untangled knots and things like that and retie for them. And I them to struggle more and more in that way. Just kind of handing that baton off to make sure that they're sustainable in their love for fly fishing.
Katie
I would assume that those people who are more experienced, they might not even really be here for you. Not that anyone is ever too good to learn something new, but if they might be here more for the community and honestly not even care if you spend a minute with them. They just want to like spend time with other people. Whereas a beginner might be like, "You need to hold my hand the whole way through because I have no idea what I'm doing."
McKenna
Yeah totally. Like it's a like the beginners definitely want you part of that whole process and want you to like be like panic. Which is funny but like the experts are people that are way more experienced. Yeah like sometimes they don't really need the advice or want the help or anything they just want to maybe ask you a question and just talk about it. And again like there's so much more to the outcasts than just fly fishing. It's about that community and that connection. And that's yeah I would say that's huge part for why they take the trip too.
Katie
This might be a good time to dive into what the trips entail. I want to get also into some backcountry specific stuff just from you, like gear and things like that. Just to start, walk me through how one of these trips might go. I assume for some of these people it might be their first time in the backcountry. How do they go and how do people handle being out there potentially for the first time?
McKenna
Yeah, that's a great question. So we do, it's like six days total with two travel days. Okay. Which is a good chunk amount of time. Like it's not a week, but it's packed. And that's what it's like intended for. Like I want to pack it to make people feel like, okay, like I'm moving, I'm going like this is worth all the time and effort we put in. So we'll do hikes in Glacier. We do obviously an overnight on the river and that's the most like remote country experience. And so oftentimes you'll have people that are like giddy and excited and want to get out there and want to feel like that seclusion. And then you have people maybe a little bit more shy about it and nervous. And that usually comes through with a lot of questions. Like there's a lot of, OK, even simple questions like, OK, what should I pack? What should I have in my pack? Am I good? Like am I set? And so sometimes it's really good as a guide to recognize those nerves. and recognize those questions as like, hey, I'm feeling a little nervous about, you know, being this remote on the river, being like camping. Some women have like never camped. So there's a million questions with camping and just sleeping on the river, sleeping in a tent. Like that's new for some people. And so again, we talk a little bit about like that expert in fly fishing and like the beginning phases. And so it's the same thing with camping. You wanna hold their hand kind of through that process, which is so cool. one of the things I love about OutKast too is like the level of trust that these women have in me. It's such a blessing and I'm so grateful that like one, they're willing to spend their time and their money doing something like this fun and exciting but also like their trust in me that like, "Hey I know this is your first time camping. You got to trust me that I know what I'm doing and we're gonna be safe and we're gonna enjoy it and we're gonna like have all the things we need to make it a successful trip. So yeah there's definitely some nerves with people but honestly what's cool too is you see the group start that connective piece. You see that group like pick up those people that may be less experienced or more in the beginning side or more just on the nervous side. And so you see like that kind of cohesion and that care from everybody in the group. And also like it's cool because sometimes those like beginning flurries come out in different times. For some it's fly fishing. For some it's hiking. For some it's dealing with various factors of, "Oh, it's cold in the morning," or, "Oh, the water's cold when I'm swimming." Various things that might be shocking to people who have never been at such a place. It's just so cool to see the encouragement and the uplifting spirit of people who just met.
Katie
Yeah. The ones who come in and are new and maybe have you know the the jitters do you find that by the end of the trip they are generally pretty comfortable with it or do you saw people who come in and by the end they're like this was fun but I don't know if this is for me you know like they they might just still have some uneasiness do you do you have you notice a pattern with that?
McKenna
Yeah I think like everyone's different but I think that yeah totally I've definitely had the lady that comes in and is super nervous, low experience, doesn't know, like this is new, this is different for her. Like, and some come by themselves, which is, again, I just commend them so much for their courage and willingness to just throw themselves out to discomfort. And usually, by the time that they kind of get used to being uncomfortable, in essence, or just having that level of trust within themselves, with me, within the group, they just relax and they find way more comfort in going and throwing themselves out there. So yeah, I definitely see that progression. And it's just amazing to hear, even after trips, they say, like McKenna and to the groups, hey, I'm taking these steps, trusting myself and I'm throwing myself out there because the times that I have, I've just gotten such great feedback and I've grown as a person I'm growing as a woman, as a mom in some cases. It's just like I said, fly fishing is one of the coolest parts because I love fly fishing as part of this business. But being able to watch women grow, be uplifted, and make that progress in maybe being a little nervous in the beginning of the trip but later on feel confident is amazing.
Katie
Do you find any considerations need to be made planning these big trips for this big group. I have a ton of experience backcountry fly fishing but I don't do it for 12 plus people. I do it for myself and so I know what I need. I know that if I forget something then whatever I'll get by. I know what I'm comfortable with but I have to imagine that it's not just taking that and multiplying it by 12. You have to consider a lot more things with these people who might be new to it. They might expect a different comfort level. They might not, they might be really freaked out if they find out they don't have a rain jacket and it rains, you know, things that aren't going to kill them, but you know, it might really freak them out. So how do you scale that up from doing what you used to do, which is just going out to the backcountry and fishing, to now you have to host all these people out there? Like, what have you had to change about the planning and the prep?
McKenna
One million percent. So like I said, my brother, he, like, we wouldn't pack water. Like, we were were surviving. I don't know if like, you can't say anything close to thriving or enjoying. We were surviving. And so I think when you just apply that to yourself, you're fine. I don't need a rain jacket. I can sleep in wet, cold pants or a sweatshirt or whatever. I don't need food. I guess I don't even need water. It's amazing what you're willing to kind of throw yourself through or put yourself through. And I think that that was one of my biggest things like, "Okay, McKenna, you have to care for and make sure everyone else is staying within that comfort level and also understanding that your comfort level is way different than a majority of other women's comfort level." I am absolutely amazed at how much water we go through when we're out on the river. I have massive gallon, gallon, gallon jugs because I know all the women will refill their water bottle like ten times. It's amazing. That is a huge one. Chapstick. I always have extra chapstick, sunscreen, face wipes. Those are a hot ticket item. They freak out about face wipes. That's a huge one. Also, it's very some like food that's like good food you know they don't want the again like I was my brother having half-cooked hot dogs with no buns like that's unacceptable for women's trips so we do like salmon and we do salad and we do like well-balanced meals and so yeah it definitely was a hard one to like up scale and be like okay McKenna like think of all the comforts that you would definitely want to have for for women and like it's it's tough because your comfort level is so much different and so you are trying to think of like okay like I want them to be comfortable I want them to be warm I want them to be dry I want them to be fed I want them to have chapstick if they need it or lotion or all the things and so yeah it was definitely a little bit of a learning curve but I think that you know each trip you just learn more and more about okay like if I bring a ton of face wipes if I bring lotion if I bring nail clippers like and thank goodness we have rafts like I have a gear boat because if were a little bit squeezed for space and weight, it just wouldn't happen. We have too many face wipes, honestly.
Katie
You'd have a face wipe boat or raft of face wipes coming down the creek.
McKenna
Yeah, literally. Yeah, exactly.
Katie
What was the learning curve on that like? Was this mostly you learn by people asking? I assume at some point someone came up and was like, "Do you have a face wipe?" and you were like, "No, should I?" and then you go from there. Was about was just people letting you know what they wish they had and you kind of finding a balance of what can we carry and what do people want?
McKenna
Yeah it was exactly that. I think I just happened to have some face wipes in my backcountry pack and I pulled them out to like to like grab a knife or something. I wasn't even reaching for the face wipes and they're like, "Oh my goodness is that a face wipe? I would love it!" It's like opening a pack of gum in a public area. It just flies off the shelf. definitely was like a learning curve. And like coffee, that's a huge one. Everyone knows like people love coffee but the amount of coffee people drink in like a regular place like their home compared to the river like they will drink gallons of coffee on the river because it's the aesthetic. And then you're thinking about doing yoga later. Yeah exactly. So like I always like that's like those learning things are huge. And also like the amount of food too. It's like you want to make sure you have a lot but you don't want to you know do too much. I think like my first trip I made pancakes and I like ran out of batter like the exact like down to the last pancake and I was like okay next time I'm bringing double the pancake batter like so it's definitely a learning curve. It's really cool to also like whatever comfort things I can bring now like I said that weight in space isn't an issue necessarily it's just great to help out like hand sanitizer. I don't use hand sanitizer anytime, but out on the river, women love hand sanitizer. This is small things for sure.
Katie
Is there anything that stands out as the most ridiculous request you've gotten, in your opinion? If anyone's listening, you don't have to throw them under their bus, but have you ever gotten a request that you're just like, "What? No. We don't have that here."
McKenna
"Oh, there are some crazy requests. I can't even." Honestly, they come from a good place. It's not like they're trying to be difficult or sassy at all. Sometimes they'll ask me and I'll be like, "Oh my goodness. No, there's not a place we can go get Red Bull. I'm sorry. I don't have that." But honestly, it's not about always filling that comfort box. You want them to be comfortable, right? But also, you're not bringing a five-star hotel to the river.
Katie
Right. There's value in being outside your comfort zone a little bit.
McKenna
Yeah, exactly. You want them to be comfortable but a little bit uncomfortable. Again, you just get that appreciation for ChapStick. It's a little bit of give and take. But yeah, I've definitely gotten some wild requests and I'm like, "Oh, I do not have tanning lotion. I'm sorry."
Katie
You can offer the rugged trip where you go out and make them live on the half-cooked hot dogs and no face wipes and anything. This is what you upgrade to when you want to have the "authentic backcountry experience." Oh, you're going to find out what it's like to fall asleep in a wet pair of clothes from head to tail.
McKenna
I've actually thought about that. I've talked to different levels and upping the mileage when we're hiking. Again, just upping that ruggedness to it. I think a lot of women would actually enjoy that progress and that challenge. I don't know if I would ever do my brother and I backcountry trip because, again, that's surviving.
Katie
Do people carry their own bags? I don't quite understand how much of it you're floating and how much hiking and stuff there is, but when you're not in the boats, are people carrying their own stuff? Are you way overloaded? Are you the pack mule? How does that work?
McKenna
Yeah, so we'll do a couple of hikes in Glacier and I have them pack their own backpack. The hikes in Glacier are just day trips. They pack their own. I really send out, "Hey, this is what you should pack. You know I like to have a beanie and maybe some gloves and definitely a rain jacket. Bring some snacks. You'll always, you, I like try to like walk through it with them a little bit when they're packing it because you know they're gonna pack like a million things that they don't need and forget the things that they might actually need. So when we do hikes in Glacier they kind of pack their own stuff. When we do the overnight I also like to help like walk through that with them too because they'll pack their own own bags for the overnight on the river. And again like it we have a gear boat so we have some most a lot of space and weight and stuff but also you want to be you want to part of it is teaching backcountry like habits and so you want them to teach like you want to teach to pack proficiently and like pack what you're gonna use and what you need. Always have like emergency stuff but like proficiency is packing is important and it's amazing to see how many women like enjoy that part of it. They you know how do I pack teach me how to pack and And so if I do progress in my trips in the back country, I can be proficient at it.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, the learning aspect. Which I feel like- and again, I know we've probably generalized talking about how men fish and how women fish. And there's obviously a lot of exceptions to this. But when I used to guide, I found that women were often more focused on the learning, whereas men were more focused on the, I would like to catch a fish right now. And sometimes I had to encourage both sides to, hey, learning is great, but let's go catch a fish right now. or, hey, your cast could be better. We should work on improving that, not just getting a fish. And so I could see the women being really interested in the learning of how to improve something as simple as packing a backpack. There's a skill to it.
McKenna
100%. And I totally can- I see that, too. Guys are like, all right, I have one piece of information. I'm going to take it and run as far as I can with it. Where women are like, I want to read the whole book, and then I'm going to read it again, and then I might go apply. You want to switch it. You've got some information, go try, go fail. That's why I tell everyone who gets in the boat, "Hey, you're going to get tangled. You're going to miss a fish. You're going to fail and that's going to be just part of the learning process. Just take it for what it is." Where the guys are like, "Okay, I understand the basics. I'm going to just not talk for the next 10 hours."
Katie
Is it that you are floating, the trip is spent floating, but from the raft, you will get out and then do day trips to up to lakes or things like that from it. But that's kind of your base camp. It's like a moving base camp that is going along the trip. Is that how it is set up?
McKenna
Yeah, we don't necessarily go up to lakes. We kind of stay on the river.
Katie
Oh, okay.
McKenna
But like, yeah, so like we'll do, we'll pull over and we'll do lunch and we'll do different breaks and they can get out and explore and wander and they can go fishing. they can, like I said, you're still challenging them as far as letting them, you're just really trying to plant that seed of and maybe it's already there, like curiosity and adventure. Like go go exceed, go explore, and then we'll go down and we'll camp on another part of the river and again they'll do the same thing. We'll have dinner. One of the cool things is there's something so magical when you start a fire and you're on the river and you're in the back country. It's just the aesthetic and where you are and how appreciative you are for everything, like chapstick. And like that's where really the coolest things come out too because you just see that connection. You see that conversation start and You know people meet people where they are and in different stages of their life. It was so cool last year Like we had a few women that had kids and were married. We had people that were getting married We had some that weren't were by themselves and so like It was just such a cool connective piece to say like oh I remember when I was there I remember when I was at that part in that stage of life and and just see that uplifting so Yeah, there's different times where they can go and explore by themselves and then they all kind of like group together at the end.
Katie
Okay, okay, gotcha. What kinds of things do you hear from them that they really appreciate apart from the fishing? Like, I assume that most of these people, you know, they like fishing, but something tells me that there's a lot of people who are like, "Wow, birds! Like wow, nature! Like mountains, scenery, photography!" Like all these things that come along with it. And I find that especially true in a lot of the women I know. They're there for the fishing, but they're also there for a lot of other things that can easily distract them from the fishing. They're happy to go off and do these other things. What are some of the topics that come up that people are just jazzed about?
McKenna
Totally. Yeah. I think, honestly, rocks. Rocks is a huge one.
Katie
Okay.
McKenna
Yeah. Women go crazy for rocks. Also, we have to remember, some people have never experienced something like this. a deer is earth shattering or like obviously if you get like if you get up into moose or bears like that's obviously a whole nother level but something that's so simple like rocks the waters huge big like trees are big like it's just like it's a whole new world that they're experiencing so definitely definitely that even like chipmunks they like really I don't know why if they just because they're so small and fast they just get consumed in but just small little things that they may have never seen before, never experienced. That's what's cool too is you're on the river and you're experiencing this new place to some and to some it's not new and there's just still that appreciation for it.
Katie
Yeah. Not everyone's going to be blown away by something, but it doesn't mean you don't appreciate it. I've spent hundreds or thousands of days on the water, but I still love seeing wildlife. I've seen it a hundred times before. It's just like, it's something to change it up, something that makes each trip unique. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that people are really into that kind of stuff.
McKenna
And I think that also, like we do, so we do hikes in Glacier, we do the fly fishing, we do the overnight in the river, and then there's like this local rodeo we go to. And I threw it in there because it's a really fun experience, but it's amazing how many women were like, "I wasn't sure about the rodeo," and then they have this absolute blast because they've never been to a rodeo, they don't even know how it works, They don't even know the rules. They don't know why that person's on a horse or that one's on a bull or like what's happening. But they just like, it's this whole new experience. It's this whole new thing that they didn't know about that they just are like, this is awesome. This is amazing. This fits the lifestyle. And so it's really cool to see some like, I don't really know about this rodeo. And then they pull out an old dusty pair of boots and they try to make their way to this really authentic Montana style rodeo. And they love it.
Katie
That's fun. I think I would be that person, but I think I would have the same reaction where I'd probably be like, "I don't know, sure," but then I'd probably have a blast. It sounds like a good time.
McKenna
Yeah. No, it's amazing. And last year on the trip, we went to the rodeo, and then there's a little karaoke bar connected to it. And some of these women have never heard of George Strait in their life, but they'll start blaring Shania Twain and George Strait in their cowboy boots, and they've gone to a rodeo now, so it's a whole new feeling and a whole new vibe and they're just living their life.
Katie
That's awesome. I want to switch a little bit to things that you use for the backcountry, because I have to assume that when you're catering to 12 people, you know, you're going to use gear that you can afford 12 plus of. So they might not be sleeping in what you would sleep in if you were just yourself. But I'm just curious, as somebody who has a lot of experience in the backcountry, tell me about some of the gear you use for like sleep system, raft, things like that. Like what fly equipment are you bringing just for your personal, not taking into account having to afford a dozen of it, just like if you were just buying for yourself?
McKenna
Yeah, I think that part of that is just experience, what you've tested, what you like, what your comfort level is. As far as my kind of brands that I love to jump into, I love Nemo's sleeping system. Their sleeping pad is absolutely amazing. I've put a ton of holes in them and they fix them. They'll send them back to you which is really cool. So they're just a great company. As far as fly fishing gear, everyone asks you what kind of rod do you use and they think that if I have this exact rod as this person then it'll be the equivalent of success or experience level. I just don't think that's the case. I think that whatever rod you like and you feel like everyone's different, everyone has a different cast and so like you don't necessarily have to go with the name brand rod like pick the rod that feels comfortable to you and like for me like I I like a little bit more classic vintage older Western style stuff and so I don't often jump into like a lot of the gadgets and gizmos of today I think I just kind of have pretty basic stuff and a fly rod that I've used for a while a long time as far as other like gear items go I love I'm not sure if you're familiar with Seek Outside tents.
Katie
Yes, we have one.
McKenna
Yeah, the teepee tent. I love those teepee tents so much. They're so light. They're so easy to put up too. I love those. I also carry a bivvy sack. I don't know, not all the time. During like when I do my guided trips, I actually like to sleep. If it's not raining, if I don't think it's gonna rain, I just sleep outside and let everyone else kind of jump into the different tents. Just because again we kind of talk about that like comfort level and some of the nerves. Some people feel a little bit safer when there's somebody else sleeping outside out by the fire and just kind of keeping the fire going.
Katie
They'll be the first to get eaten.
McKenna
Yeah, exactly. I'll be the first one so they feel way better. I have a bivvy sack. I like that to keep my sleeping bag in. I'm actually in the process of getting a new sleeping bag from Stone Glacier. The Chinook is one I've been looking at. It's like a zero -degree bag. I can never have too much warmth, I think. Hopefully, I don't sweat all night. I don't know. Do you use a full bag or a quilt? I use a full bag.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. For the teepee, do you use the stove or are you going in the summer and it's just not necessary extra weight?
McKenna
Yeah. I use a stove in the shoulder seasons, but I've literally woken up at 9,000 feet two feet of snow and had the stove just ripping all night and it was hot. It was a sauna. But during the summer, I don't need it at all. It's warm enough. I also do like to carry, I've really gotten to know the Montana Knife Company guys and they're an amazing company out of Montana. I've just noticed that I feel better carrying a fixed blade. I carry that on there too on my pack and different things. Also in the raft, I have a little emergency box thing that's got Band-Aids and ChapStick, of course. Everything just in that comfort level of, "Okay, if a situation does happen, I can't tell me how people hook themselves." Band -Aids are usually the first one to come out of the box.
Katie
What do you like for water purification?
McKenna
Yeah, I just have a simple pump that I just use. I also carry for my backcountry trips, for the women, I carry, like I said, those big jugs. I bring in water for that. When I'm by myself, I just use a pump. I do carry some tablets just for emergency stuff, but just a simple little pump and filters or the LifeStraw. Sometimes I've done that.
Katie
Oh, yeah. I haven't tried that one. I've heard of it, but I feel like we found a system we I'm not even looking for new stuff, but it didn't occur to me that, yeah, a pump wouldn't work for that many people. I was thinking, you know, you'd probably use the same thing for the group. And I was like, that would take, you know, five hours to pump.
McKenna
Forever. again, with how many people fill up their water bottle. Um, the LifeStraw is good. I have it. Like if I have room, I'll, I'll take it just for like, Hey, it's so light. It's so easy to pack. I'll take it. But you need like overly excessive, strong cheekbones to like get the water through the straw.
Katie
Oh, it's a good workout.
McKenna
Yeah. It's a little bit of workout for a little bit of water. So it's good for emergency or if it's your only option, it's fine. But yeah, it's a workout.
Katie
Yeah, I use a SteriPen as my quote unquote backup. We have our regular gravity filter that we use. But I like to throw that in in case something were to go wrong. So it sounds like kind of the same thing for you. Like if something went wrong, I can use this straw. But it's not going to be your first choice. And I assume you can't fill a water bottle with it. It's strictly for I'm drinking right now.
McKenna
Yep, that's exactly how I've used it. You just fill up your water bottle and it's literally just like a straw. I've also, again, gone on trips with my brother and we haven't packed any water. We ran out of water within the first hour. And so I've kind of learned a little bit of like, okay, how do I find a spring or somewhere that I feel comfortable drinking that water? That being said, my brother has gotten giardia, so we all risk it.
Katie
Take it with a grain of salt, yeah.
McKenna
I would prefer to bring the straw.
Katie
Do you bring any animal protection? It sounds like you're in grizzly country, so I assume that there's got to be some sort of plan for that, but what's your choice for that?
McKenna
Totally. Yep. I always have bear spray. I also teach the women how to use bear spray. They feel more comfortable themselves. We're also making sure that our camp is well maintained. we get all of our food, all the smelly stuff up in a tree away from grizzlies that they can reach. So we keep a really clean camp. We have good habits. This year, I think I will get, we'll start carrying the 10 millimeter just as another added level of safety. I think not necessarily 'cause I feel like I'll have to use it, but just because, you know, again, you're bringing that comfort to people in the group and sometimes that's just another added layer. So, but up in, I haven't made that decision quite yet. Right now it's just been bear spray and good habits. And also just like teaching, hey, like this is kind of how we approach these situations. We go in groups or we make a lot of noise. And also like you're bringing that perspective that like, hey, nine times out of 10, obviously there's some situations where it can go bad, but nine times out of 10, because like bears don't want anything to do with you. It's just creating that approach and good habits.
Katie
I think that group that large has got to bring some amount of comfort to people, you know, to take on 12 people at a time.
McKenna
I'm pretty sure Washington can hear us. Yeah, like the whole state can hear us, honestly. I think by the amount of people laughing, yelling, screaming, we're not too worried about it. Yeah.
Katie
And how about mapping? Do you have any mapping apps on your phone that you rely on? Any names you want to throw out there?
McKenna
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Onx Maps and then I've actually worked with Trout Routes for the last few years. Oh, okay. I love what they do, which is really cool. They were actually just now they're just joined in with Onx now. I think that happened about a month ago.
Katie
Oh, really? I didn't know that.
McKenna
Yeah, they're all together. We're one big happy family now. So that's super cool because I love what Trout Routes does and I love what Onx does. And so I'll be sure to download. Even if I've been there a million times, I've done it, it's always great to have a map and be able to-- again, even for yourself, my own comforts for myself are different than the group. And so giving that map to people in the group is like, hey, this is where you are, and this is where you're headed.
Katie
Yeah. I don't know if this will be your place to speak on it, since I don't know if you work for Trout Routes or anything, but do you know what that merger means? what is coming. I use Onx too, so I'm basically wondering what might I get now that they've combined? Do I need to get the fishing version of the app?
McKenna
Yeah, so I just did Backcountry Hunters and Anglers and so many people asked me that and I've just been like, "That's way above my head." But I will tell you what I know. As of right now, I don't think they're combining. I think that's way down as far as the timeline goes. right now I think they're staying separate which again I think for right now it's good because I know how to use both and I feel okay if I'm on the river I'll go to trout routes and if I'm like hunting some landscape I'll go to OnX. So as of right now that's the information I know. Like I said I'm pretty far down the line.
Katie
Okay, gotcha. Yeah I know I think I saw that OnX is coming out with a fishing version of their app. I only have the hunt version because I don't really use a lot of fishing features on apps. Like I go find a creek and I throw a fly into it and see what happens.
McKenna
Yeah.
Katie
But I sure if I could see trout streams on my hunt app without having to buy a separate subscription.
McKenna
Yeah, I think they're kind of going all in one pie, but right now what I use trout routes for is the water temperature gauge or CFS. That's just little updates because again, you might be going somewhere you've already been and you know the access points, but just updated information.
Katie
What kind of hunting do you do? You mentioned that you did some hunting. What do you hunt up there?
McKenna
Yeah so I pretty much hunt with my brother.
Katie
Okay.
McKenna
That's kind of we've always gone out for elk and whitetail. He's up in Alaska right now. He's stationed up there and so we we attempted to do doll sheep last fall. Weather patterns and everything didn't really allow much hunting. I think it was more just like I think they're in this area maybe like which is always an adventure. So I don't Don't do too much in the fishing season, obviously. You have to wait around until September for elk, usually. That's what I like to get out and at least just try to find some, see some. I'm actually going turkey hunting with Duck Camp here at the end of May, so that should be a trip. That'll be pretty funny. I think we're going to do like a -- hopefully get a turkey and then try to make some flies out of the feathers or something pretty crazy like that. We'll see.
Katie
Last two things I wanted to ask about, which are kind of completely unrelated to what we've talked about, but I try not to take other things I've heard on podcasts. For example, I found you from Dave's podcast, "Wet Fly Swing," and I try to not listen too intently because I don't want to just repeat the same conversation. But you mentioned something on that podcast that I want to know more about, which is getting in a plane crash, which I can't not ask about that. How did that come about?
McKenna
Yeah. It's so crazy because it happened my junior year of high school. Not to make myself feel super old but that was a little while ago for sure. I don't even know how long. You tell the story so many times that you kind of forget it's craziness at times. We were just in the back country of Montana and I was with my brother and I was with my dad and then my brother's friend from college. We had fished for a few days. I don't forget how many days we were out there. I was young enough that I didn't know how to pack. I didn't know how to pack food and how to pack the right clothes. I think I was wearing the bedazzled jeans out there. That's how ridiculously inexperienced I was. And my dad had packed all our food, so we ran out of food the second day. And so we were getting flown out, and I was just so hungry and so ready to have breakfast at our parents' house that I wasn't even thinking how crazy it would be to fly out of these mountains and whatnot. We got into the plane and I was sitting right next to Levi the pilot. He's a family friend so we knew him really well. That was his job. He flies people into this remote airspace. My dad was in the back and he was like, "We're kind of strapping in. It was a little windy coming in here." I was like, "Pancakes. Pancakes. I'm not even thinking right now. I'm just thinking pancakes." we took off. There was no, we're still in the ascending category. We're over the trees. Anyone thinking we're still taking off? No. We're over the trees. And my dad, I wish we could show some pictures. My dad took a picture when we were above the tree. It was right before. And then Levi said a couple of bad words and then he hit this case or this button in a case and I don't know what it did. I don't know like I don't know what's happening. Again like I was like pancakes, pancakes, and I thought we were just kind of gonna like float down you know. I was saying oh we'll just casually float down and we just our like nose tipped and I think that like you know as a kid everybody thinks you know okay if my house is on fire and my dog was inside or if like an old lady's purse was getting stolen like I would go help them right. We think like in situations our brain is going to function and we'll make the right decision. What's it called? Fight or flight maybe? I think I learned a little bit about myself. I was definitely flight or I just stood there. I didn't stop.
Katie
I think that's freeze. There's now three.
McKenna
Maybe I'm making a third category. I just kind of froze. I wasn't scared. I remember I wasn't being scared or like, "Oh my goodness. I'm going to totally die." It was like, "Oh, we're just going to hit the ground." I think I described it on Dave's podcast as like my brother and I used to get our sleeping bags and fly down the stairs And like slide down and there was like an abrupt wall at the end of the stairs and we I don't know how we didn't put a hole in the wall because we would just fly into it and So you start at the top of the stairs and you'd be like, yay This is so fun. And then towards the end you kind of like Lower your shoulder and you just hit the wall. Yeah, you'd like get up and you run back up the stairs It was just like that like it was identical like I was like, oh, we're just gonna hit the ground I'm just gonna hit the wall and then I'm gonna get back up." And it was like three seconds. Like not even. It was so quick which is so crazy because my dad said it happened super slow to him. He said that he was in the back and he could see all of our like gear floating and he would like push it back down. Like he remembers things very, very, very slow. Where I was like, "Bing, bang, boom. Like done." You know? I remember waking up upside down and Levi hit my buckle. I remember falling. My brother, he sustained the biggest injury because he ran the runway and he got a piece of grass in his foot. It was in bare feet. He still has a piece of grass in his foot today. He can't get it out. I don't know. Just embedded in there? Just embedded in his foot. He pulled us out and then
Katie
So everybody was fine?
McKenna
Everyone was fine. Yeah, Levi hit the dash and he had a little scar through his forehead. But no broken bones, no concussions, nothing. Levi actually won. He did an amazing job making the decision to bring the plane down because some people were like, "Oh, I can make it. I'll push through." And then they hit the trees and that's how they ended up dying. So he ended up like really getting a lot of accolades and like compliments for being able to like I recognize that there's like a down draft or an airflow here that's preventing me from like taking off and through that and so he's like I got to get down on the ground. So yeah it's honestly all thanks to Levi for just making that quick call and everybody was able to walk away. Obviously his plane was a little totally totaled. We were upside down and like everything broken. But yeah we were able to walk away and one of the crazy things is we it was like a no-fly day so they canceled all flights because it was so windy. And this guy, this retired Navy SEAL, came and got us in his helicopter. Probably because he heard that I was like so looking forward to pancakes. But he came and got us and for some reason I don't know why I did this I sat backwards in the helicopter and we just like fishtailed the whole way out of like the airstrip and over back into town. And it was the most hectic like anything I'd ever experienced on a plane as far as turbulence like times ten it was crazy. Way more scary than anything with the plane crash. Again I don't know why I sat backwards and I don't know why I was just like it was it was crazy. But yeah it honestly it taught me so much it like I said I was pretty inexperienced at that point. It taught me so much to prepare for some situations that obviously you don't expect, and then handling those situations. I told Dave on his back dance, I always win the two truths and a lie with that one.
Katie
Yeah, that's a good fun fact. I feel like not a lot of people have anything like that. Was it the wind that brought it down? It wasn't a problem with the plane. It was just the wind.
McKenna
No, it was just wind. My brother's a pilot. I don't know much about but I guess when you kind of hit up and over those trees, like there's so much wind circulating in the mountains that like it can stall maybe, I don't know, like a plane and keep like that pressure down so it can't get up and through it. Oh, okay. And so, yeah, that was a problem. And yeah, again, I don't know much about flying.
Katie
So the reason it went well was that he brought it back down like on the runway. Is that?
McKenna
Yeah.
Katie
Or somewhere that wasn't trees, you didn't like crash into a forest.
McKenna
Exactly, yeah. Runway is pretty much just a large piece of grass.
Katie
Sure.
McKenna
You take it off and he was like, "Yep." He understood the situation and recognized it and then just brought us right back down really close to the tree, like really close, but on the runway.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is, like I said, a good fun fact story. Not a lot of people can say that, so I'm glad you survived and now you have a story now.
McKenna
Yeah, it was crazy. It was wild. Yeah.
Katie
that was also kind of unrelated, but you mentioned early on that you were an athlete growing up and I saw on your website that you played hockey. It sounded like kind of seriously. Is that something you still do or was that something in your past now?
McKenna
Yeah. So I played college hockey at Hamlin University. That's why I'm in Minnesota. And then I went on to play pro in Austria, Salzburg. And yeah, it's kind of one of those things where you think like, "Okay, this is what I'm going to be done." And then you keep playing and then you're like, "Oh, this is what I'm going to be done. Oh, no." And then you keep playing. It's always managed to find the back door in my life, but I love it. I'm a goalie. It's taught me so many things and gave me such a great community within the world of athletics. I'm hoping to stay with it whether it's coaching or playing. I'm not really exactly sure, but it's a great balance between flat fishing in the summer and then freezing my butt off in a cold rink in the winter.
Katie
What I was going to ask next is, Do the seasons line up nicely? Like they're not, they're not competing with each other.
McKenna
They're perfect, honestly. It's, it, it, it works out really well. Like, like a lot of hockey is just over the winter and then it kind of wraps up around springtime. And then, yeah, it's about time to get out back on the river. So it is cool. Cause like the older I get, the more things I find that I want to do. And like, I really love skiing. And so like, I'm having a full plate with everything all the time. But like I said, hockey just has still taken up a lot of that time.
Katie
I feel that full plate feeling for sure. What, what, what team do you play for?
McKenna
Right now? I don't play, uh, on a team specifically just for training and coaching. Um, but I have looked at playing over in Sweden and Switzerland, probably this fall. I'm not sure exactly.
Katie
Yeah. And where do you like to ski?
McKenna
Oh my goodness. Yes. I, uh, pretty crazy. I went skiing here in Minnesota, which was funny because they have like these double black diamonds, quote unquote. And I was like, whoa, that's a bunny hill, but whatever, okay. So I've done some skiing in Minnesota, but obviously I'm from Whitefish, Montana, I'm from Kalispell, so big mountains, huge. I love that one. I love getting down to Idaho. That's probably my favorite, like Targhee. I haven't got to explore Utah or Colorado yet, but I really, really want to go try that. I've been up to Fernie, Canada. That's probably my favorite place I've ever skied. that was some cool powder to be a part of.
Katie
Nice, we just did our first trip to Big Sky and we're like instantly in love with it. I was, and we get like great skiing in Colorado, but Big Sky had everything we loved and it's so huge. Like I was jealous of all the people who were locals up there.
McKenna
Yeah, Big Sky's pretty sweet. That's a good place to get down to. It can get pretty packed though. Like it can get really, like one day can be totally normal and the next day you're like, oh my goodness, everyone in the world has come here.
Katie
Oh, you should come to Colorado. And then maybe you'll feel better about Big Sky.
McKenna
I've seen Colorado a little bit, yeah. So I don't know what I'm gonna do.
Katie
Cool, well, just to wrap up, where can people find you if they wanna book a trip, one of these women's trips, or just reach out and chat? Like where's the best place to find you online?
McKenna
Yeah, so most people get connected on Instagram. You just go to McKenna Hulslander or you can go to OutKast Adventures. Both are pretty connected. I do have a website, it's like outkastadventures.com go to mckennaholmslander.com. I think both work pretty well. That's usually the two places you'll find me or you'll find me on the river.
Katie
Perfect. Well, McKenna, thanks for humoring me and coming on today. If you ever find yourself down in Colorado, hit me up and we'll go back out in the backcountry here. I just appreciate you taking the time.
McKenna
That sounds awesome. I will. Thank you so much, Katie, for having me.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me and you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and if you'd like to leave a review it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise thank you all again for listening I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care everybody.
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