Ep 132: Catching Every Salmonid Species, with Tad Murdock
Tad Murdock owns and guides for Georgia Wild Trout. When he is not fishing Georgia with his clients, he is usually traveling the world in search of new species to catch. Tad’s current goal is to catch all the salmonid species in the world. He has pretty much finished the North American species and has also caught numerous species native to other countries. He hopes to wrap up in the next few years. In this episode, we talk about how he came up with this goal, stories from his adventures around the country and around the world, which species have been harder than expected, things he’s learned about fishing along the way, and much more.
Website: georgiawildtrout.com
Guide Instagram: @georgiawildtrout
Personal Instagram: @Tadpolefishin
Facebook: /GeorgiaWildTrout
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 132 with Tad Murdock on catching every Salmonid species. Hey, everybody. Just wanted to hop in quickly and make a quick announcement before the show. We are rapidly approaching flyathlon season. And for those who aren't familiar with the flyathlon, it is a super fun race that happens a couple times each year. And it's based around running, fishing and drinking beer, which are three of my favorite things. And if you'd like to hear more about the race, you can listen to episode one of the Fish Untamed podcast, where I interviewed Andrew Todd, the founder of the flyathlon. You can also check out episode 9 with Katie Mazzia and episode 121 where I catch up with Andrew Todd a second time. But in addition to being a really fun weekend with a lot of fun people, the Flyathon is also a fundraiser to raise money for native cutthroat trout conservation. So if you have a couple extra dollars that you would be interested in donating to a great cause to support native cutthroat trout, go ahead and head over to my website, fishuntamed.com, and you'll find a menu at the top called Flyathlon Fundraiser. That link should take you to the fundraiser, and you can donate there. I do want to mention that Running Rivers, the organization that hosts the Flyathlon, is a 501c3 organization, and all donations are tax-deductible. And any amount is greatly appreciated. This would be a great way to support the show and also support a wonderful cause for native trout. So that's all I've got for you, and we can get on with the show. All right, well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got a start in the outdoors and into fishing. So tell me how you got introduced to fly fishing.
Tad
So I actually was a big bass fisherman back in the day. went out. I'm from Georgia, went to school in Louisiana, ended up in Texas, and then eventually Oklahoma. By the time I got to Oklahoma, the bass fishing was just rough in the wintertime. So I was like, I don't really want to go bass fishing. My buddy's like, you want to try fly fishing? I was like, man, that sounds pretty wussy, but let's give it a go. And I ended up loving it. And I always loved the science aspect of all things fishing. So it lent itself to that really well. And I was kind of getting to the point in bass fishing where I was leaning more towards the finesse stuff. And it was kind of an easier transition. And then I like to travel with all my fishing, whether it be bass fishing or anything else. I like to get around, see everything. And so I don't think there's a better fishing hobby or better, you know, cat subcategory of any fishing than fly fishing for trout just to get you around.
Katie
So you said you went from bass fishing to fly fishing, which makes me assume you weren't fly fishing for bass. Were you fishing for trout in Oklahoma?
Tad
Oh gosh, no. I still hate fly fishing for bass.
Katie
Oh, okay. Why?
Tad
Oh, it's so inefficient. Like, I think for the most part on the fly, I can outfish conventional gear, you know, 364 days of the year. Um, bass fishing. I don't think I could ever outfish, you know, you know, conventional gear for bass. It would, it'd be, you know, next to impossible.,
Katie
So do you fish, do you, fly fish more because you think it's a really effective way to catch trout, more so than like the love of the actual act of fly fishing?
Tad
Um, bit of both. Um, I, I don’t, I won't conventional fish for trout. I'd rather, I like the challenge of throwing streamers when you're going for the big fish. That would be the one place where conventional gear would outfish the fly gears when you're going for the really big boys, you know. But with, you know, your standard trout, the flies win over conventional stuff more times than not.
Katie
Yeah, I don't hear that too often. I feel like a lot of people, you know, would say, you know, I like fly fishing for bass because I just love fly fishing. So I'll fly fish for anything. So it's kind of interesting to hear a different perspective, you know, somebody being like, no, I would rather just go either fly fish for trout or conventional fish for bass, but like not really overlap them.
Tad
Yeah, no, the actual, I understand the art of fly fishing, you know, I think it, I do think it's cool, but it's not, it's not what compels me to go fly fishing. I like, I think the biggest thing I like about fly fishing is the stalk. I like getting close to the fish, positioning yourself, one cast, catch one fish. That's kind of, to me, that's the dream with fly fishing. You know, waving your line back and forth down the river all day kind of just seems like waving your line back and forth all day on the river.
Katie
That's hilarious. I don't know if I've ever had anyone on the show actually express that before. So it's fun to have, you know, a mix of opinions on that. But I agree with you that people talk about fly fishing for trout sometimes as though it's like you're intentionally making it harder on yourself just for the art. And I kind of agree with you that I think fly fishing, at least in the streams that I fish, you know, the small mountain streams, fly fishing is, I think, the more effective way to catch trout. And if you handed me a spin rod with, you know, anything on the end of that other than a fly, I think I would catch fewer fish than I would with a fly rod just because, like, they're eating small bugs on the surface. Like, how are you going to replicate that properly with a spin rod? Unless you're just putting like a flying bubble on there.
Tad
Exactly. And, and yeah, with the big water conventional gear, it starts to balance out with the fly angling until there's a hatch. And then the, you know, the guys with the gear are like, oh gosh, what do we do?
Katie
Right. Right.
Tad
Just sit back and watch, I guess. But yeah, I, I did, I went to Turkey this past summer and I had a couple, it was fun. the guy I went or that was, that lives from Turkey or lives in Turkey. And he was showing me around. Um, he's conventional only. And it was great to fish with him because I, I, I told him to check my work, right. I I'd fish through something. And, he, he, he whooped me on a few, there were a few streams where the Brown trout were so tucked in under wood or undercuts that that vibration from the little spinner he was throwing. and would pull them out of there when I couldn't pull them out of there with a streamer, you know, squirmy worm, something big, flashy, just to try to draw them out. They would not move. And that, that thump from the spinner was, was the trick on a lot of it, but cool, cool to fish with them on that. It was different. Yeah. It's fun to see all the different like ways people can catch fish.
Katie
And we're just talking about fly fishing and conventional gear, but then, you know, I've talked to people who do all kinds of weird stuff you hear about, like, you know, jugging for catfish and, like spearing through the ice and ice fishing in general. And just, you know, all the different ways that people get fish to the net is just, you know, fun, all the different ways we've invented to do that.
Tad
Well, and they all have their a little bit different appeal, right? So here in North Georgia, we have some striped bass fisheries, which are really fun. That's kind of my side hobby is I like chase and I don't, whether it's live bait or artificials, I mean, they're tricky some days. And I, my last time going for them was in January and they left me so stumped. I haven't been back since. So, and it's, it's turning into prime time form right now. So I need to get back out there. I just, I don't, that last butt whooping I took got me shy to get back in the boat.
Katie
Well, great. Let's, let's talk a little bit about Georgia. I know we're going to kind of transition into your goal of catching all the, all the Salmonid species out there. But before we get to that. I just want to hear about your guide service and maybe we can just talk a little bit about fishing in Georgia in general and, you know, what opportunities you have there. So, so walk me through how you started the business and what you guys offered today.
Tad
So I was guiding for another company for a little bit and, kind of during COVID when my, my sales job kind of turned into a telemarketing job and I had to get outside. So I started doing some guide trips, I'm like, man, I can, I can do this, you know? And so, I, that second year of COVID, I was like, I just started my own business. Um, and, really kind of learned the, the website side, the SEO and all that. And what I, what I didn't know, and in retrospect has been awesome is I like to do the wild trout, the, or, you know, the public water stuff. So, going out, not the biggest fish here in Georgia. We're not known for the, you know, trophies for the most part, but we do have some great brook trout streams and it's an excellent place to learn. If you can fish North Georgia, you can extrapolate what you've learned here to anywhere else in the world. The only other thing Georgia won't teach you is about hatches. We don't have, we have what I call a cornucopia hatches where it's like five of every species all coming out at once. Never Um, it, it very seldomly, you know, it, it, not that it doesn't happen ever, but it is very rare that we get, you know, I still wouldn't even hardly call them a blanket hatch, but we'll get modest hatches of, of one species at a time. But, but other than that, it's more learning how to break down water, body positioning, stocking them in the water. You know, you can get really formulaic with it and really break down water. Um, and that's the fun part. And I do mostly beginners. Um, I'd say a lot of the, we'll call it intermediate fly anglers that I get that they're usually guests of beginners that want to come and they always, you know, everyone I've, I've had leave like, Oh my gosh, I learned a lot today. I wasn't breaking the water down that dramatically. Um, and so I don't get as many of those intermediate ones, which I kind of wish I had more cause I can usually do more with them. We can go out, experiment a little bit more, push some boundaries and maybe go for some of those big ones that my beginners usually mess up on. So I can even some scores with some of those fish. But yeah, that's kind of Georgia as a whole. We do some private water stuff where you'll see, you know, Georgia is known for some of the pellet pigs. I don't not enjoy it, but I don't enjoy it as much as the wild trout stuff.
Katie
Now, do you know what causes the weird hatch patterns that you're talking about where you get a whole bunch of stuff at once and then that's it? Is it like a weather thing or what causes that?
Tad
We just don't have that many bugs to begin with. We don't have enough bugs to make a blanket hatch of anything really. And then in Georgia, once their temperatures get to a spot in the season, we don't have that slow spring transition with ice melt and all that. So the water temperatures kind of crescendo pretty quickly. And when they do that, you'll get stoneflies, caddis, mayflies all coming out at the same time of all those species. So that would be my guess on why it happens. And it tends, you know, usually it's the, it's usually the spring where we get, you know, you'll see, you'll see 10 different bugs in one day. In the summertime, it kind of steadies out where it's just two or three bugs and, you know, real hit or miss, whether there's some actively hatching, it's normally just bug here, bug there, you know, nothing, nothing dense.
Katie
Do the trout still rise for dry flies? Because I'm thinking of our small, like a mountain stream brook trout here, obviously not the exact same terrain, but same idea. A small stream brook trout, they'll rise to a dry fly regardless of whether there's a hatch going on. But I wouldn't go out to our bigger rivers with the pickier browns and rainbows and throw dry flies if they're not rising. Is it like that there where you can still catch those brook trout on dry flies?Are they pretty open to taking whatever?
Tad
After April, if you're throwing a dropper, you're just asking to catch more wood debris for no reason. Right? You can go only dry flies from April through definitely the end of November, sometimes even into December, and not need a dropper.
Katie
Yeah, that sounds similar to here then. It's like, I don't know what – here I assumed it was kind of a short weather window. You know, those mountain trout will – they only have a couple months to feed between being socked in by snow. That's kind of why I assumed that they would be willing to take anything regardless of whether there's a hatch. But it must be something else because you guys don't have that snow window.
Tad
Here it's just a limited amount of food.
Katie
They have to eat.
Tad
The trout here probably see less bugs in a 12-month period than the trout there. Yours are just condensed. Ours are so spread out that if something drifts by and they want to get bigger, they better eat it. So that's kind of what goes on here. It is kind of rare to see a trout rising on its own. It does happen. During some of those hatches, this time of year in particular, we start to get some of the quills, mahogany duns, BWOs. you will see them start to rise on their own a little bit more commonly in the afternoons. And then on our tailwaters, there is more bugs in general. So the Chattahoochee below Lake Lanier, the tailwater there, tons of midges. You can find a midge hatch, I mean, probably every day of the year. That's not, and they'll be coming up to those in certain places on the river. It's not everywhere on the river but if you know where to look you can find that that bite and then the tocoa actually does have which is in further north Georgia it'll have some black caddis hatches sulfur hatches can be pretty big up there and then some fall caddis stuff will happen as well
Katie
it kind of surprises me that you don't have more bugs I don't I don't know why I guess I'm just thinking of like the south you know being hot and buggy and I maybe I'm just I've never fished Georgia but I guess I'm just not picturing it correctly because I just assume there are bugs everywhere
Tad
yeah no we have some of the other stuff but yeah no in terms of the EPTs the stonefly caddis mayflies we don't get them in just the blankets right or you know certainly not as many in this our our streams are more acidic so that we get a little bit less production some of our our streams are what's the right word just like open rock bottoms there's no there's no less gravel substrate for them
Katie
just like exposed bedrock kind of or
Tad
yeah yeah so in some of those headwater streams that you can see a lot of that and there won't be as many bugs there we still we have some decent woody debris for them to get around not maybe not as much as like you'd see in like Michigan where tons of woody debris and you know they get a lot of bugs because of that but yeah it's it's not as good now once you cross the border in north Carolina you'll start seeing a lot more even on the small small streams big streams they'll have steady hatches it's I don't know if they know where the border is but man there's some streams just across where it's you know bluing olive hatch always sulfur hatches always they'll have some isonychia up there so it is it is kind of odd they know where the state line is
Katie
Yeah, they honor state lines. They don't want to, you know, cross any borders. Well, great. I guess we can move on to kind of the bulk of our conversation here, which is going to be your goal to catch all the Salmonid species in the world, which is a huge goal. And we're not going to have time to cover all of that today, but we're going to focus on a couple parts of that. But just to start, how did you come up with this goal? You know, where did this come from?
Tad
Man, I've always liked to make lists and I can't leave anything unfinished. So when I started fly fishing, I was like, oh, let's do all the ones in North America. And I was living in Oklahoma at the time. So, you know, brown trowel, rainbow, brook came pretty quickly. And then I learned about the Gila. And after going after the Gila, I was like, man, that was a cool adventure. It was, I loved driving through New Mexico, seeing all that stuff. And I was like, okay, that's a great way to see the world move around. And it's a great challenge, you know, not, you know, figuring out a species, especially one like the Gila, which was, it was on the tail end of being threatened when I first went to go look for it. Now I've heard they're doing pretty dang well. So just a really cool fish and something kind of where it was down in New Mexico. I wasn't expecting things to look like quite like it did. look more like Colorado down in southern New Mexico which was which was really cool
Katie
I'll let you kind of lead the way here because I don't know how how it started but like you you've come up with this goal you've kind of checked a couple off the list and how did you start to plan how you were going to achieve this because there's a lot of species and it sounds like you're also doing all the subspecies which really adds a ton because I feel like if you're just talking species
Tad
I'm not doing all the subspecies I think some of it's kind of yeah so like for the for like the cutthroat for example there's like 10 around 10 cutthroat subspecies that I think are they're honorable mentions they're good ones I'm not going through like every river you know everyone that's just named after the river that it lives in I don’t really buy into that thing of subspecies I think I feel like it's more some people chasing grant money than it is you know okay yeah then it kind of an honorable mention thing
Katie
yeah that answers a lot because you you’d mentioned in your email that like there's some subspecies that are being a thorn in your sides that's why I assumed that you were doing all the subspecies but yeah
Tad
no no so like one of the ones I was mentioning that is the blueback trout or the sunapee trout up in Maine it's actually a subspecies of arctic char and Maine's another one that I i thought it would be cool I was really blown away by how pretty it was how dense the forest is up there lakes are gorgeous and the sunapee trout just lives deep for a lot of the year. It'll come up in the shoulder months, but kind of like the lake trout that also gave me fits. Um, you have to hit that window, ice on ice off perfect, or they go down and then they're almost impossible to get. Um, so, but yeah, that, that was a really cool subspecies. And then, I've, I started the cutthroat and I've caught all the big ones that I want except for the Paiute is the one subspecies I'd like to go find ironically I fished all around it when I was chasing the lake trout it actually brought me to exact that area just below Tahoe and I I didn't know it was right there at the time if I was I definitely would have fished I even had extra days where I went after some Lahontans and now I'm kicking myself because I've caught Lahontans in a few places. Um, but, yeah, I just want to get pictures of them. I wasn't taking pictures of all of them when I, the first time I caught them, I was like, Oh, I've got my cutthroat. I don't need more pictures. Now I'm like, Oh, maybe that would be cool. I need, I need something to do stateside, you know, during my summers, if I just have a shorter trip, you know? Um, so that those were a cool little side goal, but, yeah, I finished up the, the North American species two years ago with the lake trout I find I it took me to Maine, Michigan, California, Colorado three times the third time I went to Colorado I finally got it
Katie
I might, if you don't want to share the location on the podcast I may have to ask you after the fact where you caught it because we also have a spot for lake trout that we go that it's pretty reliable but I'm curious if it's the same spot
Tad
yeah yeah no it's it's kind of in the saint Mary's area.I think that I mean that's only of the smaller lakes that are more alpine though that's that's the only ones I know about in Colorado that have them I tried it in rude eye out by the aspen area that I i got tennis elbow throwing my throwing my elbow out making back you know backhanded casts with big streamers and then I i went to I had to go to the saint Mary's area twice. The first one, one of the lakes was still, I walked and walked and walked the, the, the gates were still closed on the, the roads. And then there was too much ice pack. So I probably hiked in 11 miles to get to the lake. And then it was like, I, it said, you know, as a crow flies, it was supposed to be a thousand feet away. And I looked, I was like, that's, that's another mile and a half. I was like, I don't want to get in trouble trying to cross some big snow pack, just to finish the journey. So I came back a month later and did it again.
Katie
Gotcha. Yeah. Quickly going back to the subspecies thing. That's kind of tough because I feel like, and maybe there is a distinction that I'm not aware of between a subspecies and a strain and what people might refer to. But I think of the cutthroat subspecies as being not their own species, but almost close to it. People really like to talk about which subspecies of cutthroat, but then there are subspecies of things like rainbows. And I don't feel like people care as much about those at least you know here you know people a rainbow trout's rainbow trout and but you do hear about strains strains of rainbow trout like out on the west coast and maybe that matters to them more out there because that's where rainbows are native but you know it's it seems like based on the species people talk about them a little bit differently
Tad
how I personally look at it is I want to see how long they've been kind of separated from their closest ancestor, right? That was big out in Turkey. You know, how those, they're more brown trout relatives out there. Some have been split off for quite a bit longer or in totally different drainages now since the last ice age. And so like some of these ones in the Northwest or the Western US, they have only been split for since the last ice age. You know, they were once joined, you know, so you have your big basins, right? So there's the Lahontan one. There's, what's the one in Utah? I forget every dang time.
Katie
There's Bonneville.
Tad
Bonneville. So, yeah, you basically had your inland lakes. And that's where these strains, you know, those were their home bases, we'll call it. And since then, like with the Bonneville, you've got like the Bear River. Oh, what's there? There's, there's two more right there. And like, I think the Bear River is kind of different than a lot of the other Bonnevilles. Um, but other than that, all the Bonnevilles to me are Bonnevilles. They're, you know, less than 10,000 years separated. You probably need, I don't know. It's, there's not a hard number, but I'd say closer to a hundred thousand years of separation to really get species designation or, or kind of what happened. Like I think the Paiute and the Lahontan were splitting before Lake Lahontan disappeared, right? They were kind of, the Paiutes kind of evolved to stay smaller, you know, in those small streams and they were tucked away. Whereas the Lahontans were still moving in and out of that, you know, inland sea and kind of had totally different life history patterns. So if they're occupying different niches within the same drainage. You know, I like stuff like that versus when you're just splitting them up, like, oh, this one's this river, this one's this river. Like, if we, you know, if it gets really cold again, those things can interbreed, you know?
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe that's what I'm thinking of when I think of a strain, because I think there are like subspecies of cutthroats that we have here, but then they talk about like this particular strain in this river. And it's like the only real difference, it seems, I mean, There's probably like a genetic difference and maybe a slight visual difference, but nothing that would ever stop them from interbreeding. And to be fair, species can interbreed too. I mean, you can have hybrids. So all of it's kind of a construct in some way, but at some point you have to draw a line somewhere.
Tad
Yeah, another close one is like the Yellowstone, the Snake River, Fine Spotted. You know, those three, I mean, they're – I try not to judge it just by looks. I think a lot of people want to go, oh, this one looks different than this one. Like, I mean, look how many races of people they are. They don't look much alike. So I try not to do that with fish as well. I try to look at more of that genetic data and how different they are, how long they've been split for, if they occupy different niches. And that's kind of what I go off to be like, okay, that's a cool one. For instance, in Turkey, for a good example, the Tigris and Euphrates River are in the far eastern side of the country. They're the only, and genetically, they're pretty similar to brown trout still. They are a little bit different. I'd say there's the same gap as cutthroat and some rainbow trout, or maybe golden, California golden rainbow trout, or golden trout and rainbow trout. so same level of of differentiation and genetics but they're they're still considered the same species here over there though they're in a completely different drainage so those are the only trout native to an Indian ocean drainage oh that's cool you know fast forward a few like they are definitely splitting off if they don't go extinct you know by then but yeah just because they're so split like that I'm like if it's not at their own species now it will be you know in the future.
Katie
And what, what trout is that that's over there?
Tad
The Tigris Euphrates trout are the ones in the Tigris and Euphrates. Yeah. Aptly named. Um, and there's, and Turkey was just an awesome hotbed because it's got Mediterranean drainage, Marmor, the Sea of Marmorata, the Black Sea, the, Caspian Sea and, the Indian ocean. So it's the state or the turkey is probably, I'd say all the, from California to Northern Oregon in size, right? Maybe a little bit more width, but probably just as long, if not, you know, right at that length.
Katie
And how many, species are there in the world and in North America? I don't want to put you on the spot, but, if you happen to have a list of them, I, I'm curious.
Tad
I actually do. Um, I put it, I just, on the Georgia wild trout website, I made a list of the ones, again, some of The hard species, I would say not so much of an opinion on, but I did do some honorable mention subspecies in there as well. But it's right around 50.
Katie
50 in the world?
Tad
Yes, of the Salmonids that it's tough to argue that any of them aren't their own species.
Katie
Okay, and how about North America?
Tad
North America, ooh. I want to say there was like 15 or so. There might be more. Then there's native ones in North America. Then there's the number that are here, right? But yeah, I think it's around 15 or so.
Katie
Now, do you, like, is your goal, does your goal incorporate the idea that you have to catch them where they're native? Like, if you caught a rainbow trout in the U.S., do you check that off? Or, sorry, not a rainbow trout, a brown trout in the U.S., do you check that off? Or do you have to go to Europe to catch one?
Tad
I would. I've caught them in Europe. Usually the ones that have been introduced here, I just happen upon when I'm in their neck of the woods. Sure. You catch them as a byproduct. But yeah, I'm not really huge on their native waters. I'd kind of just want to catch one. I'm not trying to catch one out of a farm pond.
Katie
A wild fish.
Tad
Yeah, wild fish would probably be the best way to say it.
Katie
Gotcha. And I guess we can talk a little bit about the United States, around the world, whatever we can get into, whatever you think is interesting. But I'd love to hear just some of the more interesting species that you've gone after. You know, like you go catch a brook trout outside, you're out in your backyard. Maybe it's not the most exciting story. But having caught all the ones in North America and some around the world, I'm sure you've had some interesting adventures. You know, you already mentioned for the lake trout that you had to go out several times, you know, across the country looking for them. So maybe I'll just let you pick a handful that really strike you as either really difficult or just really memorable or really good trip. And just like, tell me how it went.
Tad
I really liked the bull trout. The bull trout has probably been one of my favorites here in North America. I think its story is really cool. I chased my first one on the Metolius River, which I still tell my clients now, I think that's the prettiest river I've seen in the U.S. still. I thought it was awesome. Tough fishing, but I mean, you know, like between scenery and all that, I also went like prime time and the what mid fall. So, you know, prime color change. It was really cool. I want, I'm not big on trying to get a trophy of each one yet, at least. Bull trout or one, I do want to get a big one. All mine are, my biggest one's like 16, 17 inches, small relatively. but I want to go back up to, yeah, I don't know if I'll go to Montana or hop the border into, you know, the Calgary area and try to look for one, but that one's definitely my favorite. I will, I love streamer fishing, when I can do it, here it's pretty limited how often I get to do it. Um, especially on, I like waiting. I don't like fishing out of a boat as much. It kind of, it kind of kills a lot of it. If I'm streamer fishing, I'll do that at a boat. Other than that, I won't touch a boat fly fishing. Um, but, yeah, that's one I'll go for more. Um, yeah, the lake trout, like you were saying, I thought was really cool. Um, brought me to some really awesome places and whooped my butt in each one of them in that until I found Colorado. Um, Another one, the Atlantic salmon, a really cool fish. I caught mine in Maine was the first one. I went and caught it. I caught some more in Ireland this past spring, but in Maine, really cool. They're more land, they're all landlocked pretty much, but they're all just little torpedoes. I wouldn't mind trying to go find some of them in Canada or, you know, on their, you know, more native runs to see some big ones. But they were, to me, they were, I feel like they're, they're more like brown trout, like a sea, like the sea run trout, whether it be, you know, the sea run, brook trout or brown trout, they behave more like that than the salmon, which are, they hit the freshwater and they're all business.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Tad
Um, I guess steelhead. I haven't, I haven't caught a real steelhead yet. Maybe just lost half your fly fishing audience.
Katie
Yeah. I was going to say, I said, that means you've caught one of the great lakes, but not in the West coast.
Tad
Yes. Yeah. Um, so I, I want to do it. It's man, it's kind of daunting. Just the guys that are into it are really into it. And I'm like, I don't want to be that into it. I wouldn't mind getting one, seeing the whole thing. I've, I've fished like the hoe river up there in the Olympic peninsula and a few that's, you know, seen some of the other ones. And it, I mean, absolutely beautiful. If I didn't live Georgia, North Carolina, it would probably be the Pacific Northwest up there. I love that deciduous rainforest atmosphere. So I'll go do that one day. It's maybe not on my shorter list though.
Katie
Okay, but you're going to go ahead and count the Great Lakes. I'm not a purist on the division there, but I know what you mean that some people get really up in arms over that.
Tad
Yeah, well, and it's one. So I got my Great Lakes one as bycatch, right? It was, you know, I was there looking for some salmon and ran into a steelhead while I was there. So I'm like, oh, that's cool. Bonus fish. But yeah, I do want to do it. We'll call it right and get the get the pure experience there.
Katie
Yeah, I think the West Coast steelhead. Well, I'm not too worked up about, you know, what defines a steelhead in that case. That experience to me sounds a lot more fun than the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes, what they have going for them is you can catch a lot of fish, which is great. And I'm glad that there's that resource for people. But I've never done the West Coast one either. And just the experience of being in that environment and swinging the flies. And you might only get one fish in a week, but it's like you're going to remember that fish for the rest of your life. I can see the appeal of that. And I agree that I would like to have like – I won't feel like I will have gotten the true steelhead experience until I get to go do that at some point.
Tad
Yeah. Well, and I actually might run into a true steelhead first in Russia if the political climate ever clears up. They have them in there where I need a couple char relatives.
Katie
Is the kundzha one of those?
Tad
It's the kundzha. Yeah, is the white spotted char. So I caught it in Japan.
Katie
Oh, they have them there too?
Tad
Yes, it's more like a brook trout there. Oh. The cherry trout and the white spotted char are just like a rainbow trout and brook trout in Georgia. They occupy the same niches. Even the geologies, like the rocks themselves are a little bit different, but the mountains, the forests are kind of exactly the same in the southeast as in central Japan there.
Katie
Oh, that's interesting. So what is in Russia? What is in Russia that you need?
Tad
Russia is mostly char. So this year I'm going to go to Mongolia to get my time in and in some Lenic. But in Russia, there's the yellow mouth char, the bogonid char, the stone char. There's another time in over there. I might put on the list for that trip. I might save it. So there's, it's, it's also in Japan as well. When I went to Japan, I got those two species we just mentioned. I missed out. I got the timing on spinning gear. And I didn't really get him. It was a stocked one. It wasn't a wild fish. So I want to go back and get one on the fly. And you have to go to, it's the Sackhalan Taimen. Sackland Taimen. I always pronounce that one wrong. So Sackland Taimen, I think is correct pronunciation. But you have to go to the Northern Island on Japan to where it makes its native runs. But it also, you can also find it on the Kuril Islands, the island chain that runs between Japan and Russia. And then along coastal Russia, they roam those waters too.
Katie
It's crazy how many species are out there that I, and I assume most other people have never heard of. Like, I didn't know there were multiple species of taimen.
Tad
Yeah, how many are extinct is a big question. So there's the Sichuan taimen that I thought was extinct, but I just got some maybe better news for in central China. I'm going to go with it's extinct until I'm going to go look for it, but I'm not going to hold my breath for it. There's also a Korean taimen that you can find it on the border of the river that makes the border between China and North Korea. As you would probably guess, no real research has been done on it.
Katie
gotta stay on the right side of the river for that
Tad
oh I don't know if there is a right side um and then there's there's the one taimen in Russia and then there's the European taimen
Katie
I don't even know if I knew there was a European taimen
Tad
yeah the Danube salmon is what it's called so that that's the one I've caught on the fly I caught mine in Montenegro but they're big in Montenegro. There's a few in Bosnia, Slovenia. So they're native to the Black Sea drainages, the Danube River drainages.
Katie
We're planning a trip to Slovenia this summer and I've got marble trout on my list, but what other species are there that are worth looking into?
Tad
So you've got the taimen. Now I don't know what the, the seasons are really weird out there and for the Danube. So sometimes it's only winter depending on the country you're in.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Tad
So you might have to go down to Croatia or Montenegro if you're there during the summer to get it.
Katie
Specifically that species? Like is marble trout available?
Tad
Yeah, marble trout you'll find easily in Slovenia. I really liked it. My only problem with the marble trout in Slovenia, I feel like their marketing leads you to believe they're everywhere. And the, the kind of the, the bad part of it is like, it's a glorified rainbow trout fishery for the most part. And the marble trout are like pushed to the exterior. Like they're, they're the least common ones there.
Katie
Oh, okay. That's a bummer.
Tad
Now, now with a guide, like they'll probably put you on the streams where they're, it's all marble trout or, you know, or more heavily. But yeah, I thought, I thought they were just going to be in like all the streams, but no, it was like mostly, you know, pet rainbow trout where I was like, I was like, this is, I don't need this.
Katie
Now, I assume that you're generally hiring a guide in these foreign countries just because that's a daunting task to take on by yourself, or are you able to do DIY for some of these?
Tad
I mostly do it myself. The only time I'll get a guide, I got a guide for the timing because they are all the big predators. It's a matter of covering a lot of water. And if you don't know you're on the right water, you know, when you're fishing, you know, it's a, if it's a fish of 10,000 casts. You want to make sure those 10,000 casts are where the fish live. Yeah. So I did get one for there. And then in Japan, in retrospect, I didn't need one, but when I can't drive around and read the writing on the street signs, I'll get a guide. Turkey, I wouldn't have been able to do Turkey. I guess he's not an official guide, but I mean, was just as good. He could, you know, if he wanted to. It would have taken me living in Turkey for minimum six months, probably get arrested a few times for trespassing. We were calling in, getting like permission from like the army to fish, you know, certain stretches of, of these streams and rivers. Um, I wouldn't have been able to do it without him at all.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like a part of why a guide is useful in foreign countries is, is not, it's not just like finding the fish. It's kind of what you said, where if you can't read the signage, like you go to other countries and what are the laws, you know, it might not be clear. And if they're not using the same kind of terminology that we use here, it's like, do I need a license? Can I go anywhere? Is private property a big deal? Like, all these things, it's like, just hire a guide and the guide will know where you can go, where you're not going to get arrested or shot or something like this. Like that would be my motivation for getting a guide. I think less so than finding the fish.
Tad
Yeah.
Katie
Yeah.
Tad
certainly makes that ancillary stuff easier. Um, but like, so in a bot, so you're going, you'll be close to, the soft mouth trout in Bosnia. They also have some in Croatia and a few in Montenegro too. And a few streams out there, gorgeous waters. That was, that was a wild fish. Um, I was fishing a stream. in Bosnia, probably 50 feet wide, gin clear. You could, you could count every pebble bigger than a quarter all the way across the stream. And I, I was not seeing these trout period. Um, and I actually went out the, the place I was staying at the, owner's son was a, whitewater rafting guide, but he liked fly fishing. He's like, Oh, you know, if you don't catch yours by tomorrow, come out with me, we'll go in the evening. And I go out with him similar places I was fishing all day long. And, and I thought we were going to go at like 4 PM, you know? So I showed up at like three and he's like, Oh, let's tie some flies. I was like, all right. You know, I was like, I'm not, you know, wasn't going to be in a rush. And he tied some black caddis. Uh, and, we, we actually didn't even leave until like seven 30. Um, and I was like, gosh, we're, we're, you know, playing it close with time. And like, we get out there and I, he just knew the hatches wouldn't start till, you know, eight 30. And, but we get out there and he's like, don't step in the water. I'm like, all right. I just listened to him, humored him, you know, and cause I could see all, and I didn't see any trout. I was like, I wouldn't have thought it had been a problem. And sure enough, eight 30 rolls around, you know, the had caddis start hatching. And I mean, these trout would come up from at the end of my rod tip, you know, 10 feet away, never saw them in the water. I called them ghosts, you know, like, I mean, they were, I could not believe how invisible they were. And, I eventually, I ended up getting mine on the elk haired caddis. Um, but yeah, I was, it completely changed my perspective on how I approach any water and just trout in general. Now, normally I, you know, I've got pretty good, we'll call it trout vision those I i I still can't get over how ridiculously you know camouflaged they were do you know if he could see them what I don't I don't think he could oh okay he he he had just done that so many times and knew that they were going to come up they spooked easily so you got to kind of let them they kind of look like they're brown trout kind of with the mouths of grayling is what they look like.
Katie
Okay. That's how I would describe them. Yeah, because I know, I had an experience, you know, like saltwater fishing for the first time where I couldn't see anything and the guide was like, there's a bonefish, there's a bonefish, there's a bonefish and I'm like, how are you seeing this? And I even experience it, you know, I'm looking at fish in the water all day and I'm with people who are like, I don't see anything and I'm like, how do you not see it? So there are definitely, you know, you got to tune your eyes into it, but.
Tad
And what I, what you usually cues me first when I look for force is the shadows, the long slender shadows, with trout, that's usually the dead giveaway. Um, or you'll see, you'll see the shadow before you ever see the, the trout itself. Um, and that's what bone, I know that's how they do bonefish too. It's the shadow that, you know, you can see better. Um, with this though, I don't know. I think the water was just so clear there and it's that turquoise bluish color that I don't know if it, just acts like a, or it's like a magnifying glass. So it just kind of, it kind of toys with your eyes when you, when you think you're stepping in, you know, six inches or three feet of water, it's six inches of water and stuff like that. So maybe it was my, you know, lack of familiarity with that type of water, but yeah, it was, it was kind of, it was tough.
Katie
Now do you, are you counting hybrids in this too? Like, is a tiger trout on your list? Is a cut bow on your list?
Tad
Yeah, I've caught them all. I haven't caught a splake actually. But yeah, I've caught the cut bow, the tiger. I really like tigers just because of their pattern. I'd caught a few in Colorado. My buddy moved out to Salt Lake City a couple of years ago. And we actually caught a few monsters visiting him this year that were shockingly easy. I feel like with those big ones, once you know the spot, they're there always and they're always eating. Because he had a few. And he's been fly fishing like four times ever. He's gone without me like twice and gone with me twice. But he just found a few spots. He's like, yep, there's some right there. And I was like, good gosh. Caught one 24-inch or another 20. And I was like, all right, I can cross that one off the list.
Katie
I'd like to catch a big tiger trout. I've caught quite a few, but all under 15 inches or so. And I feel like they change kind of the way they look when they get bigger. The ones I've caught are more like silvery with just like darker markings. And I feel like when they get bigger, they get more of that like green and orange and brown.
Tad
Yeah, much more colorful, but kind of darker hues, I would say. What's weird is, so most of the ones in Colorado, I caught them out of St. Mary's Glacier or St. Mary's Lake right there. And so a lot of mine were really colorful, but I did catch one that was like pure black and silver. And I'm like, what is this? I thought that was the coolest one just because I mean, it looked like a steelhead coming in. You know, I was like, this is weird.
Katie
Yeah, that's all I have caught.
Tad
Oh, is that really?
Katie
Not from that lake, but elsewhere in Colorado. Yeah, they're the silver with the kind of like the black on the back, which is cool. But I mean, they also get more of those markings the bigger they get. And so the pattern gets a little bit more like a sea of the vermiculations instead of, you know, the ones I was catching were more, I don't know. It's like a small brook trout versus a massive brook trout. There's just like more real estate to put all the cool markings.
Tad
Have you gone for the goldens out there in Colorado?
Katie
I have. Yep. Yep. But it's still on my list to go catch them in their native range, which is of all the fish. Like I like catching fish in their native range, but of all the fish that I could catch in their native range, that's probably the one I care about the most. Like that's, that's on my list to go do.
Tad
So, yeah, I went to go get them in Desolation. I technically haven't caught one out of the Kern River. But I mean, they would inhabit those lakes naturally too, at least in Desolation. But I also kind of more towards Tahoe. There's some really cool. It's kind of on the backside of Yosemite around Inyo National Forest. There's a few lakes that have them there. And man, the scenery is just breathtaking up there. Like I would go, there's another lake, oh, another lake called like Thousand Islands Lake that I want to go back to. Just has brook trout in it, but I'd go for the experience, not necessarily the fish. Yeah, for sure. In general. Kind of like, I mean, the greenbacks. You know, when you go fish the alpine lakes in Colorado for the greenbacks, those were really cool. I've liked every one of those trips.
Katie
Now, tell me about some of the ones in the southwest, because you mentioned the Gila trout. And I hear more about the Gila trout than I do about the Apache trout, but the Apache trout kind of intrigues me. I assume you caught one of those, and what was that like?
Tad
So, same species.
Katie
Oh, they are?
Tad
Yes, yeah, they're the same species. They're both Oncarincus gilae.
Katie
Oh, I didn't know that.
Tad
Yeah, Apache's a subspecies of them. So, when I went, I started out with the Apache. I went in the White Mountains there. the problem with the apache is they're when I was there they're all hybridized new Mexico was new Mexico dnr was a little bit ahead of Arizona with kind of we'll call it purifying their strands right and so the the Gilas I caught were pure the apaches I caught were definitely definitely had apache and they were that yellowish you know hue again but definitely had like would have more of like a hard red line on some of them or maybe a faded red line so I don't know if I caught like a pure one but I wouldn't be able you know without a genetic test I don't think I would have known especially when they're small they're you know they don't have the vivid markings but like both gorgeous places that I wouldn't have thought would have been that pretty in the southern part of those states so really cool there
Katie
do you have to get kind of remote for those or are they pretty easy to access like you know can you go out drive down the road and get out of your car and catch one?
Tad
so big thing with the gila trout if you take the right roads they're easy I took I took a rough road because I was kind of going the back way from the white mountains to the gila national forest and oh my gosh I was I was I was probably like 25 miles away in my my phone was saying four hour drive I'm like that's 28 miles there's no way I'm gonna No, it was, it was that it was, it was brutal. Um, and like, I, you know, no cell service up there. So I'm like, Oh man, I hope this works out. So, but if I had just gone the wrong way around, like for the, if you access it from silver city, the Hilo for Hilo national forest from silver city, real easy. Now the white mountain is very easy to get around. Like even the, the dirt roads are they're borderline paved like they were very good condition so that one was easy access was easy there like I said the only thing that and I know it's improved now with the apache that they've cleared some creeks and all that and had more they're all pure strain now so probably a lot easier to get to they're the hardest things maybe like there's not an airport nearby so you're you're driving you're driving which like I said it's a pretty driver I enjoyed it my my whole way through new Mexico the you know the old movie tremors
Katie
yes yes
Tad
kevin bacon. the whole time I was like oh this has to be where tremors was filmed like it just looks like I was just waiting for one of the graboids
Katie
I have not thought about that movie in a long tim
Tad
it was one of my favorites growing up and like I've never seen the you know the high the plateau looking features. This is my first time around those. So I just thought it was really cool.
Katie
Yeah. I had no idea the Apache trout was a subspecies of the Gila trout. And on that note, did you, did you catch the pure strain greenback or did you catch the, like the Colorado parks and wildlife special where they like say that all the ones in Rocky Mountain National Park are greenbacks when they're not?
Tad
As far as I know, it was pure. I've caught them the coolest one in Arapahoe the betty and bob lake are up there I've caught them in there in the stream and the lake and then they're around was it the Chicago lakes mount Evans I've caught them.
Katie
I hate to break it to you but I think I think those might not be pure
Tad
I've caught more in the rocky like around rocky mountain national park
Katie
yeah so they had like a big I don't I don't I always mess up the full history but it's like they thought they had the pure ones and then they stocked them all over the place and made this big thing about how you know greenbacks all through Rocky Mountain National Park and then they did more testing and found out that they're and granted I think it's like not it's not far off but I think they're like yeah 90 something percent pure but then they found the true pure ones and are now they just in the past couple years have been restocking them in a couple of new places
Tad
what got mixed in with them?
Katie
I have no idea like
Tad
probably Colorado that's I don't I wouldn't even know what the other cutthroat species in that neck of the woods would be
Katie
yeah I mean maybe Colorado River.
Tad
Yeah, that would be my guess, but it's still kind of way out there.
Katie
Yeah, I have no idea. I don't know how they got mixed, but now they have the pure ones in Zimmerman Lake and Herman Gulch. I think they're putting some in some of the forks of Clear Creek. I think there's under 10 spots that they have placed the pure ones, and only in the past couple of years.
Tad
Yeah, maybe I technically haven't. The ones I got, I always figured they were greenbacks because they were just like fire red right like fire engine red like some of them I know they get that way with with elevation yeah but like I mean it had to be like around like the spawn too like I mean they looked like king salmon when they get their fire engine red color before they go on the reds
Katie
yeah I've seen I know exactly what you're talking about the ones in rocky mountain national park in particular turn they turn blood red and I haven't seen that in any other species but yeah I don't me to rain on your parade. Uh, but if you come back out, that's fine. If you come back out here and want to catch a pure one, I know, I know the spots that they've got those ones and you can, you know, check it off for real.
Tad
Yeah. I'll be back out there eventually. I like, I'd like, I what's weird is when I go to Colorado, I hardly ever want to fish the streams just because we don't have alpine lakes. I get it. Yeah. Um, so it's something I never see. It's always gorgeous getting up there. Um, so it always, even if I'm going for a stream, I always get sucked into the lake. And that's what now with the species I have left, I have to get better at still water fishing. Um, cause man, I got, Ireland this past year, I thought it was going to be an easy trip. I caught my, so there's two, big speed, the Gilaroo and the Sonahan, are found in one little lake. The gillaroo can be found in a couple other lakes, but there's one lake that has them. I caught my gillaroo right off the bat. Probably took less than two hours. The sonahan, normally easy. If it's overcast, rainy, probably would have caught it in two hours as well. I got sunshine for four days in a row and massive sunburn in Ireland and just beat up. Um, and I finally caught it the last hour before, you know, the last hour, the last day before I had to go back to the airport. And, it was, it was brutal, but those brown trout relatives, when they get in still water are, I mean, kind of in the bass world, I compare it to like Florida strain bass. When there's a big cold front, they just shut off. They're not eating. You can't force feed them. Um, and it's tough. I, I, Turkey, there's one really cool subspecies in Turkey that only lives in lakes. And, it, it, I had trouble with it for a few reasons. One high, you know, high skies and sun. And then two, there was a million tadpoles in this lake and they had to be full. I was like, why would they eat a fly? Like, you know, there, there's, there's tadpoles hitting them in the nose. So, it was interesting.
Katie
Yeah, I was just talking to a guy yesterday who did the Wyoming cut slam. You know, one of the species for that he caught out of a lake, but he was on a time crunch. And we were talking about the same thing. I feel like streams, while they're technically kind of difficult to learn to fish because you've got to read water and stuff like that and get a good drift, I feel like the fish generally are more agreeable in a stream. They kind of eat regardless of what's going on, like sun, rain, whatever. You can catch a fish in a stream, but lake fish are really finicky.
Tad
Yeah. Well, I think on a stream, they live on a treadmill, right? If you're going to live on a treadmill, you better be eating. Where the lake fish can sit out, suspend, you know, just do whatever they want. But yeah, they're certainly more difficult. And I think of my last few, I think I need about little, right at a dozen more to finish up what I'm doing. And probably half of them are lake species.
Katie
Like strictly lakes? They're not found in streams? Or the population is just not big enough to chase them in a stream kind of thing?
Tad
Three of the char in one of the trout in Morocco is stream-dwelling, but the other two trout in Morocco and then the one-time species in the river, of course. But yeah, the one trout in Morocco and then a few of the char in Russia are lake only.
Katie
In that case, will you need..
Tad
And one in Armenia.
Katie
Sorry, what was that?
Tad
And one trout in Armenia is also lake only.
Katie
Will you need to hire somebody for a boat in that case? Or will you be trying to do stuff from shore?
Tad
You can do it from shore.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Tad
The only one, so I needed a boat in Ireland. And I got a guide for it. And that one was completely necessary because I needed to understand still water fly fishing better. There's only so much. I can watch every YouTube video out there. I feel like still water is one of those things. I mean, fly fishing in general is kind of one of those things to really understand the nuance. You have to do it. But to build confidence in still water, you either have to do it a ton, which I can't do here, or get a guide who's going to explain to you, hey, if you fish like you fished right there, you would catch, on a good day, you would catch a few dozen fish. You know, when I was in Ireland, I caught one fish in three days because the conditions were literally at the worst of the worst. And ironically, I caught on a dry fly as it was rising. We, we came up with a whole different plan to catch it, but he taught me all those still water tactics that were very, very helpful. And I'll, I actually reused them in Turkey to catch the still water fish there. Oh, that's fun. And then, you know, when I go to these other lakes, I'll have to use those two. The, the, so in the near future, I'm doing Morocco and, the two there, they don't have bug hatches in the lakes they just eat little copepods I don't know I i guess I'm just going to use like some kind of leech pattern and or you know maybe small bait fish imitation to catch them just out of aggression hit because I don't think you can imitate a copepod they don't they don't make hooks small enough
Katie
yeah okay I don't know if you could like strip a scud or something and hope that they think it's just like a gargantuan you know thing well yeah A cluster of them.
Tad
Yeah. Well, that's what I was hoping. I was going to get like a size 20 or 24, I don't, scud, white midge or something. Yeah. And kind of strip it maybe. But yeah, the copepods would be like, I mean, they'd be size 40. You know, they would be their normal size. So yeah, maybe they cluster up. I don't know. But yeah, no productivity in either of the lakes that have the two species there.
Katie
Well, that's really interesting though, having all these different techniques because, you going for such a variety of species that have different behaviors and in a variety of environments, you know, different hatches, different food sources. I feel like you've gotten kind of the full exposure to like how one can fly fish. Like I go out and I use the same, you know, five flies and two techniques for like 90% of what I do because it's all I need. Like why would I switch when I'm catching fish on what I'm doing? But, you know, put me somewhere else and, you know, it might not work at all. So it's, that's cool. You've gotten exposure to so many different ways of, of fly fishing.
Tad
It, it certainly makes you a better angler. Now it comes with way more butt whoopings, but, you know, you, you'll get better. Uh, and that's like with hatches. Um, man, the biggest thing I had to learn and I actually learned it on St. Mary's, was emergers just all about, cause I was throwing, you know, I was seeing the fish come up and eat on the surface. I'm like, they have to be midges. Like there's nothing else flying around. It's, it's literally just midges. So I was like, no, and every midge dry fly pattern, the Matt's midge, you know, every little midge I had, I'm like, they're not doing anything. What, and I caught maybe two fish in four hours. I switched to, the, the Japanese fly, the, the 10 or the, not 10 call. What's the, the Kibari flies with the feathers poking up. So yeah. So half the feathers were above the surface, the midge basically was below the surface. I caught 15 an hour after figuring out that they wanted half above the surface, half below. And that was my biggest lesson on emergers. And I've taken that, that that's bailed me out a lot of places around the world. Um, when they're, when there's a hatch going on and you can't, you're just beating them over the head with dry flies and they'll maybe bump it, maybe eat one every once in a while, but you know something better is out there. That's been the most helpful lesson I've learned all around.
Katie
It's crazy to me how they can be that picky about, you know, how high up in, like on the surface a fly is riding. Like we're talking about millimeters here, but then they ignore the fact that there's a big hook hanging out the butt of the insect.
Tad
Yeah, exactly.
Katie
That's fine.
Tad
That's what I've heard those discussions. Like on the Orvis podcast with Tom Rosenbauer, they ask them like what's the most important things about the dry flies and like I'm always within you know size probably number one then then maybe profile but then where and how it sits on the water yeah it's close to my number two but it's probably number three and then like people always want color I don't care about color I've if you get the right hue you know dark or lighter shade. You know, that's the only thing I've, I've kind of maybe noticed with color, but other than that, I've never had it matter.
Katie
Yeah. It's hard to know what's going on in their brains when they're choosing what they're eating, but cause you know, sometimes too, you want to match it perfectly. You know, they are eating size, you know, 18 BWOs. And then sometimes it's like, well, they're eating size 18, but there's a million of them. So you want to be a size 16 to stand out a little bit. So it's like you want to match, but you don't, you also have to figure out when not to match
Tad
I always take what I see and go one size smaller and go down a size yeah oh always always down a size usually always work if I'm if I'm up one size it seems like I get bumps like they'll come up boil on it and never eat it I get a lot more of that if I go down a size they'll usually you know eat it pretty good interesting that's yeah that's that's worked for me fairly well all around. And then, like I said, just sitting lower in the water, especially, you know, during, you know, during the hatch, likes it with the, the CDC caddises that, that ride lower, the, the shuttlecocks are, are really good, emergers that, that do a lot. And I always have them as a trail fly. I'll still keep that the bigger, more visible fly in the front, but then I'll trail that emerger. Um, and that's, that's one that's worked for me pretty well. Um, when I have come across the hatches, I, I'd still like to do, I want to go like in your neck of the woods, like the frying pan or something. When you get those like hatch transitions where they, you know, start out eating one bug and then all of a sudden that bug's still around, but they're eating something else for, you know, some reason I I'd like to, you know, get thrown a few of those situations more.
Katie
the frying pan is what comes to mind for me is the river I've had the the most like incredible hatch fishing on like I'm not a huge hatch fisherman just because I'm usually either at those alpine lakes or the like small mountain streams neither of which I really rely on hatches but the frying pan is the is the exception there where we have had some amazing days so yeah I would highly recommend finding some time to go do that
Tad
so yeah I have a buddy that kind of he lives in that neck of the woods and when we were going to fish rude eye for the lake trout And after we got our, you know, butt whooped down there or up on the lake for a little bit, I'm like, all right, I got to make sure I can still catch a fish. So we hopped down to the frying pan and caught a few. We're like, okay, we still got it.
Katie
Yeah, they have some really nice colors in that river too. Like really vivid.
Tad
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't make it, what do they call it? The toilet bowl.
Katie
Yep.
Tad
Just below it. We saw some guys pull some big ones out there. I was like, oh man, that would, you know, that looks like they're having fun.
Katie
I think I broke off the biggest trout of my life in the toilet bowl. He's probably still got my flies stuck in his back somewhere. Because every fish you catch out of there just has like everyone's three fly rigs just like plastered all over.
Tad
Is it mostly the mysis shrimp or mysis shrimp and midges that they use right there?
Katie
Yep.
Tad
So the mysis shrimp, I ran into a lot of those in Turkey.
Katie
Really?
Tad
And I didn't know. I don't know if they were my, they were shrimp. Or they were freshwater shrimp is what I call it. Yeah. So I had to start – I added those to my – a few of those patterns to my repertoire for when I go to random places now because the scuds weren't quite working as well, but those did exist.
Katie
Yeah, and I found the – at least the – and I haven't fished the toilet bowl in ages. It's not really my scene at the moment, but I found that they were picky about the mice and shrimp pattern too. Like we thought that, you know, a mice's shrimp is a mice's shrimp, but you know, the local fly shop sells 10 different kinds. And so we bought a handful of each one and, you know, one, they would pick out one that they really liked. And it's like, if you didn't have that mice's shrimp, you might as well not even throw it, which was, which was kind of surprising to me.
Tad
Yeah. You think that's because they see them a lot or because.
Katie
I have no idea. I mean, probably. They probably, I bet everyone who goes there goes to that fly shop and buys the same ones. And it's like, which ones were they fishing last week? Let's not eat those. Let's see a new one or something like that.
Tad
The other cool one they had on the, I saw it on the Tigris. I saw it on a handful of rivers in Turkey, but they have freshwater crabs.
Katie
Oh, that's fun.
Tad
I was like, I wonder if they eat these crabs. But there was a ton of them and they seemed a little bit too big for, you know, the trout that would be eating them. But I was like, I was like, if it's a small crab, like.
Katie
Throw your bonefish flies for it.
Tad
Exactly. That's what I was thinking. I was like, I bet that could catch a fish out here.
Katie
Great. Well, Tad, where can people find your guide service if they want to come book a trip with you? Or just, I don't know if you want to share social media, if you want to follow along with your worldwide journey, where can they find you?
Tad
Yeah. So georgiawildtrout.com is my website. I'm starting to do more. It is mostly Georgia-based, but I do have some other informative material on there. And I'm starting to branch out with it to the, you know, the species around the world, thing just, for more, you know, information on that stuff. Um, and then Georgia wild trout on Instagram and Facebook. And then my personal one is tadpole fishing on Instagram. That would, that one, I do more, you know, my, my hobby stuff, whether it be the, all the different species of trout and, striper, you know, whatever I run into or thinks cool at the time.
Katie
Well, maybe we'll have to do an update when you have completed your worldwide slam, if you will. I don't know how long it's going to take, but I'd love to hear updates and talk to you again at some point.
Tad
Yeah, fingers are crossed for two more years.
Katie
That's it?
Tad
It's all going to depend on the political stuff, kind of what happens with Russia, maybe what happens with China. So, you know, if everything goes smoothly and that stuff clears up, two years should be. That's my goal.
Katie
well I'm impressed that's a that's a lot to take on it seems like you've already gotten a ton done but it's just a really interesting project and really glad you reached out and we have to have this conversation
Tad
yeah yeah it was great talking with you like I said we'll have to meet up if I'm whenever I manage to get back out there and we'll go chase some I guess pure strain yeah
Katie
yeah we can go chase the fire engine red ones up at the alpine lake and then we can go catch a a quote unquote real one. Just check that box.
Tad
Yeah. And now I also heard, do y'all have grayling now?
Katie
We do. Yes.
Tad
Yeah.
Katie
And I can get you, I can get you one of those easily as well.
Tad
Okay. Yeah. That's, they get, do they, does that, the high elevation make them get colored up at all?
Katie
Um, I've, I've never caught a grayling outside Colorado, so I'm not sure what they would look like elsewhere. Uh, they, they have a kind of a nice iridescence to them, but they're not, I wouldn't say they're like pigmented. They don't have a lot of pigment.
Tad
They, they don't get that hard blue on the dorsal and the kind of the orange red tips
Katie
There is some of that there's a little bit I can send you some pictures of what they look like here if you're curious but yeah they're not I would say they're mostly a silverfish with some iridescence and with a little bit of blue and orange like speckled around
Tad
they're one I thought about adding to my list around the world but and I've caught like the like the European arctic I feel like there's one more I've caught. Um, but out in Russia, there's supposedly some that haven't even been discovered yet. There's like some grayling that have teeth from what I've heard. Yeah. Like some weird ones that have only been like lightly described in scientific papers. Oh, that'd be really cool. But yeah, pretty much undocumented. So I was like, eh, I'm going to leave them off. Cause that would drive me nuts if I, if I couldn't finish my, you know, project, you know, knowing that they were out and about somewhere.
Katie
Maybe, yeah, maybe finish the project and then your next project can be trying to discover this, you know, mythological grayling.
Tad
Close out on the really weird stuff.
Katie
Yeah. Well, Tad, thank you again. This was, this was a ton of fun. And I love hearing about, you know, wacky out there projects like this. So I wish you the best and hope it goes well.
Tad
Yeah. Good talking to you. Thank you.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody. you
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