Ep 131: The Wyoming Cutt Slam, with Michael Broome
I first saw Michael Broome’s name in an email sent out by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, which mentioned that a group from Kentucky had become the first from their state to complete the Wyoming Cutt Slam. The slam involves catching four of the five cutthroat subspecies in Wyoming. In this episode, Michael talks me through the experience, including planning, how it went day-by-day, and setbacks along the way. He also talks about the group’s plan to move onto other western trout slams in the future.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast. Your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 131 with Michael Broome on the Wyoming Cutt Slam. Hey everybody, just wanted to hop in quickly and make a quick announcement before the show. We are rapidly approaching flyathlon season and for those who aren't familiar with the flyathlon, it is a super fun race that happens a couple times each year and it's based around running, fishing, and drinking beer, which are three of my favorite things. And if you'd like to hear more about the race, you can listen to episode one of the Fish Untamed podcast where I interviewed Andrew Todd, the founder of the flyathlon. You can also check out episode 9 with Katie Mazzia and episode 121 where I catch up with Andrew Todd a second time. But in addition to being a really fun weekend with a lot of fun people, the Flyathon is also a fundraiser to raise money for native cutthroat trout conservation. So if you have a couple extra dollars that you would be interested in donating to a great cause to support native cutthroat trout, go ahead and head over to my website, fishuntamed.com, and you'll find a menu at the top called Flyathlon Fundraiser. That link should take you to the fundraiser and you can donate there. I do want to mention that Running Rivers, the organization that hosts the flyathlon, is a 501(c)(3) organization and all donations are tax deductible. And any amount is greatly appreciated. This would be a great way to support the show and also support a wonderful cause for native trout. So that's all I've got for you and we can get on with the show. Well, like you just said, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and into fishing. So walk me through how you got introduced to fly fishing.
Michael
You know, Katie, it was about 30 years ago I showed up for my college freshman year and I had the good fortune of meeting a man by the name of John Turner and come to find out he owns a, his family, fourth generation, uh, dude ranchers in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. So we became instant friends. And for the next four summers I spent, they offered me a job on the ranch and I was a river guide down the snake river. And when you're, you're out there, uh, you're going to go fishing. And my first introduction to fly fishing was floating the snake river, uh, on a drift boat, fishing topwater flies, your hoppers for great, huge trout. So that kind of experience sticks with you. And for the last 30 some years, I've loved it. It's been a great, been a great hobby.
Michael
And you're in Kentucky now, correct? I am, Louisville, Kentucky. And I am part of the Derby City Fly Fishers. It's a club we started about 2005. We have 240 members and our real focus is education, fly tying. We have a monthly fly tying class and we do a lot, about 12 different trips a year, all over the country and up into Canada. So it's a great group.
Katie
That may have kind of answered my question, which is like, what does a fly fishing club do or what is the purpose of it? But it sounds like you kind of organize trips and people can, I assume, fly or to tie flies together, but also do like organized group trips where you travel around the country and do things as a group?
Michael
We do. We really focus on, we have about four different training classes a year right on the water here in Kentucky. And we're teaching casting, tying flies, and really just understanding the art of fly fishing properly. So it's been a great group of men and women to be with for the last couple of years.
Katie
And before we dive into the cutt slam, which is going to be kind of the body of the conversation, tell me a little bit about fly fishing in Kentucky. I don't think of Kentucky as being a hotspot, but I find that a lot of these kind of like sleeper states have a really cool up and coming fly fishing culture. And I don't know if Kentucky is one of those, but fill me in.
Michael
Well, for the state of Kentucky, the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife does a fantastic job. They stock 700,000 trout in 2000 or 2023. We stocked 700,000 trout throughout the whole state. It's just for our club members to have that kind of resource in Louisville and around the surrounding state to go to these places and to fish for specific trout, whether it's brown or rainbow, it's just a great opportunity. We've got a huge hatchery down Cumberland River, Wolf Creek Dam, and it's a hatchery that provides all these trout throughout the whole state. So we're very lucky.
Katie
Does Kentucky have native trout, like our brook trout native to Kentucky?
Michael
No, I think these are all stockers. So we don't have any that, to my knowledge, I'm not an expert, but to my knowledge, there is all of these rivers that they're stocking are, you know, they're stocking them from October through May. And then it's a catch and release during that period of time. And then the waters down here get pretty warm and they have to start all over in October of the next year.
Katie
Okay, that may have answered my next question, which was, do any of these populations reproduce naturally? Like, do you have any, you know, wild trout that have eventually, you know, were stocked and have eventually started reproducing?
Michael
We have a river, the Cumberland River, which is the tailwater to Cumberland Lake. Fantastic. They stock a big amount of fish at that, the tailwater there. And there, there is some reproduction, I believe, but for the smaller streams, the neighborhood streams, the neighborhood lakes that they do most of the stocking, it's over with once the water gets warm.
Katie
Okay. And does your club fish for things other than trout or is it mostly trout focused?
Michael
We do. We have a trip to Baldwin, Michigan. We do the King Salmon run in September, October. We are going up to Canada, Spanish Ontario in June. We're going to fish for smallmouth bass. I am heading out next week to get the, hopefully, the Ohio steelhead run, the Conioc and the Ashtabula. We're going to try to hit that before the season's over with. So we do a little bit of everything.
Katie
Okay. I pictured Kentucky having a decent number of warm water species. I don't know if you do any like around where you are, but I, I, I picture like bass and panfish and stuff in that area. Do you have a lot of that?
Michael
Kentucky's blessed to have a lot of lakes and the small mouth and the large mouth bass fishermen. It's, it's a fantastic fishery, uh, for, for that group. And then for the, you know, the trout group, the Derby city group, a lot of smaller rivers that we fish in the summertime for, uh, for the small mouth bass.
Katie
Okay. Cool. Well, now that we have that kind of the housekeeping, I'll call it, out of the way, we can dive into the Wyoming cutt slam. And I think-- I can't remember if I saw this. I think my husband may have sent it to me. I got a notification from- or an email from Wyoming Game and Fish just kind of giving updates on what has happened in the Wyoming outdoors recently. And it was a story about how some guys from Kentucky came out and completed the Wyoming cutt slam. So I'll let you kind of lead the way on how you want to start talking about it. I guess the natural place to begin is, how did you find out about it? And how is this trip kind of formulated for you guys? Like, how did you decide that you wanted to do this?
Michael
Yeah, there's three of us that went out, myself, two good friends, Steve Couric, and Walter Montgomery. And Walter came to me and said, you know, there's this opportunity, it's called the Wyoming Cutt Slam. And I was going through the research and Kentucky and Rhode Island are the only two states that don't have a participant that's completed that. And right away, when you said Kentucky's not on the list, we all got going and said, "Hey, we're gonna be the first three to do this." So it took about five months to plan it. This was something Walter mentioned back in April of 2023. And we got together, had a couple of different meetings, started to do some research, and felt like this is something we could complete. We could do it. started to look at some dates, you know, April, May, a lot of traffic, a lot of a lot of tourists out there, so we picked a date that we would have a two-week trip in September and we traveled from Kentucky out to Wyoming.
Katie
And how did you decide that two weeks was, you know, the right time? Coming from the east, how does one imagine, like, what it's gonna take to complete this?
Michael
Well, you know, honestly, we drove from Louisville to Lincoln, Nebraska, and then on to Rock Springs, Wyoming, and then finally up to Pinedale, which is where we started the trout slam. And that was 1500 miles. So, you know, most of us don't live in Wyoming or Utah. So if we're going to travel into the state and do this, you really have to time out. And it adds a little bit of pressure because as you're traveling the, you know, traveling the back roads, like we did, you've got a certain period of time that you have to catch that particular fish, that breed or that species, and then you have to move on. So it was stressful. At times, it was stressful.
Katie
And had you guys done anything like this before? I don't mean a trout slam, but had you gone to Wyoming to fish or camped in the West or any of these things, or was this all kind of a brand new experience to you?
Michael
You know, for me, I'd been in Jackson Hole when I'd fished the Snake River right in Grand Teton. I had been-- I fished the Madison, the Firehole up in Yellowstone. But this kind of off-road- I mean, it was remote, as I'll get into a little bit later. But it was pretty challenging, physically and mentally, just to get to some of the rivers that we fished.
Katie
And did you have any sort of physical preparation ahead of time? Was it like going out and hiking hills or anything? Or did you just say, screw it, we'll go, and we've had enough time that we can kind of slowly acclimate and take it slowly?
Michael
I mean, the biggest prep wasn't so much the physical part of it, because most of this, as we traveled out to Wyoming, it was-- we parked it off the beaten path. But we were within half a mile or so from all the streams that we were fishing. So this wasn't remote hiking. It was just remote driving.
Katie
Gotcha, gotcha. So tell people a little bit about what the Wyoming cut/slam is. Like, what are the parameters? And we'll get into the species and stuff, too. But is there a time limit on it? Just kind of give an overview of what it is and what the requirements are.
Michael
The beauty of it, and come to find out, there are, and I've done some research, but there's nine other states that have trout slams, from Utah to Georgia, California, Nebraska, and they're all pretty similar. Wyoming, there was no timeframe. You come, you fish, you catch the fish, you document where you caught the fish, and then you submit your photos, and the location that you fish. So for us, it was, you know, you have these four fish, the four cuts or the four trout that you catch. And for us, it was more about the timeframe. We had two weeks to do it. And we mapped out our trip from start to finish. And, you know, the state, we submitted via email and online our pictures and, you know, that was it. They sent us the certificate and told us we were the first in the country from the state of Kentucky to complete it. So that's what we did.
Katie
OK, so there's no time limit. Like, you could complete it over an entire lifetime if you wanted to. It's just that you wanted to get it done in the two-week window that you had to travel out there.
Michael
Exactly. Exactly. It's a 1,500-mile drive. With all the gear we had, with camping and rods, we knew that it was a one and done. We were going to do this on one trip.
Katie
And what are the four species that you have to catch?
Michael
You have to catch the Bonneville, the Colorado, the Snake River, and the Yellowstone.
Katie
I saw that you mentioned ahead of time that there was a fifth species in the state that isn't required for the slam. Do you know why that species is excluded?
Michael
It's the West Slope and it's not part of the slam. Talking with a couple people, they mentioned it's really in the extreme northwest Wyoming in Yellowstone National Park. So I don't know if they want you to complete it and not be too challenged to get up and to catch that trout. So.
Katie
OK. And so you can't replace one of the other trout with it. It's not like four out of five. No. It is these specific four and the West Slope is just excluded, not part of the slam.
Michael
Exactly. They mention it in the online, the Wyoming, the state website. They mention it, but they say it's not part of the slam.
Katie
OK. And what was the sixth species? is a sick species that is no longer in Wyoming. Which species is that?
Michael
You know, they didn't mention that. They just said that there was- Wyoming was home to six subspecies of cutthroat, but today only five remain.
Katie
OK.
Michael
So they didn't mention that on the website.
Katie
Yeah, I'm curious. I might have to look that up. I know Colorado has the extinct yellowfin, but I thought that was only in Colorado. I could be wrong about that. So I'm wondering if it's something else that I'm not familiar with. So let's, I guess, get into the trip itself. And again, I'll kind of let you do the way and take it where you want to. But I'd love to hear just kind of how it progressed and go into lots of detail. You know, setbacks, what you encountered when you got there, and we can just kind of go day by day if you want and talk about how it went.
Michael
Well, I think that the first thing is people, when you're looking to work on one of these trips and actually plan it out, you really need to pick the season that you feel is, especially if you're traveling. We picked the fall just because I've always had great success out west in the fall like most people do. You know, you need to map out the trip and you really have to have a starting point. We've, we picked Pinedale, Wyoming, and we signed up with a group called the Two Rivers Fishing Company. And we started with a guide and it was the greatest thing we did because the guide put us, you know, we went in the fly shop was right there in Pinedale, Wyoming. We sat down, we talked with the guides. We had a guide take us to the first, we fished the first day with the guide, Horse Creek, and that's about 18 miles outside of Pinedale, Wyoming, and he was able to get us our first, our first cutthroat. That was the Colorado cutthroat, and we just built confidence. He walked us through what we were going to experience traveling through the Forest Service roads that go into the Tri-Basin Divide, so it's just a perfect, perfect segue. It built our confidence and we had one down and three to go.
Katie
Okay. So is the guide kind of a way to dive in, get your feet wet, get one under your belt, kind of talk to him about logistics and that way you don't show up and just have like, you know, you're not daunted by what you're facing.
Michael
Exactly. And we had everything mapped out to a T. We had it, we knew exactly where we were going, but we just felt like, you know what, let's get a guide, let's get some, and everybody out there knows the Wyoming cutt slam, all the guides, all the different, uh, fly services. So it was perfect for them because they, they put us on this fish and we may not have, you know, horse Creek is small. The guide knew exactly where to go. He knew the accessibility to where he walked us through to a horse Creek. And you know, it was perfect. It was a waiting trip and, uh, we were out there about seven hours. So it really, it just set the tone. The weather was perfect. The guide was fantastic. I can't say enough about the group out there. So it was a perfect start to the trip.
Katie
I guess two other quick questions kind of on just the logistics of your planning and how the slam actually goes. First is, did you kind of agree ahead of time that you're going to wait for all three of you to catch one species before moving on to the next? Or is it like, as a group, we want to complete the slam? Or one of us needs to at least complete it? What was the kind of goal? Or what would count as obtaining your objective, I guess?
Michael
So that was where the stress came in. because each day, you know, we have, we fished a total of, or we're out there a total of eight days. Uh, Horse Creek was one day and the guide was with us and we needed to be moving onto the, uh, Graze River on day number two, we had the campsite, we had everything set, so we all needed to catch that fish. And what would happen was on the first day I ended up catching a fish right away. So as a team and we all went out there together, I pretty much stopped and I was then helping the other two, Steve and Walter, scout out the next area. We even got to the point to where I was changing flies, handing my rod to the participant that- the other two that hadn't caught the fish. Because we were in it as a group, and if we didn't all complete it, I would have felt like I failed my partners.
Katie
OK, so hypothetically, if all but one of you had caught a fish that first day, what would be the plan? Was it, we're hanging out here another day can get one or is it see ya, we'll meet us at the next spot kind of thing? I assume you were in one vehicle, so you kind of had to move as a group.
Michael
We were in two vehicles.
Katie
Oh, two vehicles. Okay.
Michael
We were two vehicles and we talked about that because it was about three o'clock and we were done. We were going to be done by five. So the intensity of the right cast, switching flies if things weren't working, intensified as the sun started to set. It was no more this is an enjoyable fishing trip. It's like we need to find where the Colorado is. The Colorado cutt on this small creek.
Katie
The second set up question I had is, are there specifically approved waters by Wyoming where you have to catch these? Because I want to say it's the Western Native Trout Initiative challenge, the one where you catch all the species. I think they have approved waters where there are probably these species that you have to catch in other places, But because there's hybridization and there's not necessarily perfect record keeping of all these places, they have like a, you need to catch fish out of these particular rivers for them to count, even if you could catch that species somewhere else. Is that a thing here where there's approved waters? Or is it kind of you take a picture and they look at their files and say, yeah, that's what we expect to be here, so that counts?
Michael
No. The websites for all of these trout slams I talked about earlier, as well as the Wyoming, They're very specific on the Bonneville, the different streams that you can catch those in, and they're expecting you when you send in that picture, you know, for us, the Bonneville, we caught it on the Smiths Fork. I'm sorry, when we caught the Colorado, we actually caught it on Horse Creek. We could have caught it on the La Barge, the Upper Green River, Cottonwood Creek, just to name a few. So when people go to these websites, they're going to see where you can catch these fish and actually document them and have them count.
Katie
Okay, so that probably helps with the planning because it almost kind of takes a little bit off your plate. Like if you can just go anywhere, now you're Googling, you know, where can I find a whatever? And then you get, you know, you're probably seeing things on forums like, oh no, they're also found over here. And to have it be officially like, these are the approved waters, I think actually makes it a little bit easier, even if you might be more limited in where you can go.
Michael
And these websites, you know, next year or this September, The three of us are heading out to Utah, and we're gonna do the Utah Trout Slam, which is very similar to the Wyoming Cutt Slam. There's four fish, but these websites are fantastic. Like the state of the Wyoming group had us everything, exactly where you catch 'em. And then, you know, you have to get on and do Google Maps, and you have to plan from point A to point B where you're gonna go, but they really, these websites, and I've looked at all of 'em from California to New Mexico, they tell you where these fish are.
Katie
OK, that's good. Back to the actual trip. So how did that first day end? I assume-- I mean, it sounds like spoiler alert, you all caught your fish. Because I think you completed your goal. So I assume you all caught your fish. But how did that play out?
Michael
It was fantastic. We all documented. We took the picture. And how this works is once you're done with the fish, done with the slam, you submit them to the state at the end of your trip. So this was-- we caught the fish. We documented. We went back to Pinedale. And the second day is when it started to get, you know, we were crossing the Wyoming Range. So we were going, it was dirt road for 100, just under 100 miles.
Katie
Oh, wow. So how long is that journey?
Michael
Well, what we did is the second day, we drove about 20 miles to where we hit the east fork of the Grays River. And for day number two, we were looking for the Snake River Cut. And the Grays River was a day, day and a half. And then we were going to be moving on to the Bonneville cut, which is the Smith's fork. So we knew, again, we were under the gun that we needed to be precise and have our stuff together. Had it ready to go. 'Cause with a Snake River cutt, that was the second of the four.
Katie
So how did that go?
Michael
It went good. It was again, I caught one and then I think it was Walter. So it wasn't as pressuring. We all caught them, and it was great. We were on to- we knew we had half a day, and then we were going to be switching gears, going off of the Grays River, heading to the Smiths Fork.
Katie
OK, and this part is all without a guide. You're now on your own just figuring it out.
Michael
These were all forest service roads going right across the Wyoming range from Pinedale all the way over to- we were heading to Afton.
Katie
We can kind of come back to this too at the end, but what kinds of flies are you using? What kind of gear are you using? Was it the same for all the trout or did you have to make changes based on where you were fishing?
Michael
You know, most of these streams were very clear. There was no runoff there. We didn't have, we were lucky. We didn't have rain when we were out there. So I was pretty much the whole time on the, the, uh, the Grays River and the Smith's Fork. I was using a three, uh, you know, an eight foot three weight. It's really small. I went up to four. I did have a four weight rod, but for the most part, it you know, the three-way we were throwing droppers. I did a lot of the, uh, I was using subsurface on, on two of the streams. I was using, you know, some of the, I would have a weighted San Juan worm on the top, some of the zebra midges, the small zebra midges below, um, bead headed scud, uh, pretty much, you know, the Prince Nymphs, some Copper Johns. It was just a variety. It's, it's one of those things that you bring your box, you know, your three boxes, four boxes, whatever you have a flies and if it's not working, you're moving on. You're throwing something else quickly.
Katie
So are these like a heavily pressured fish or were they like, I guess, heavily pressured doesn't necessarily mean that they're hard to catch or vice versa, but were these heavily pressured fish or these fish?
Michael
No
Katie
Okay.
Michael
We were on our own. This was very remote. Uh, you know, these, these four service roads that we were on, we don't have a lot of these in Kentucky. Maybe we do down along Daniel Boone National Forest area in Eastern Kentucky, But the four service roads we were on, we all had four-wheel drive. But they were rough. I mean, it wasn't-- they were gravel, and they were well-graded. But it's not for the-- just regular cars. We didn't have a lot of people around us. A lot of people were just coming and going, but not fishermen.
Katie
OK. And what kind of-- like, what size of fish are these? Maybe it varies based on the subspecies. But how big are we talking?
Michael
A couple of them. Once we moved up to Yellowstone and we were at the Yellowstone Lake and the Lamar and the Soda Butte, they were a little bit better. But I'll be honest, the Snake River and the Bonneville and the Colorado were small, eight inches. It was nothing to write home about. Any other time I'd be disappointed. But for this, we were just happy to get them. But they were small. They were small.
Katie
For the fishing itself on the second, you said this is the Snake River cutthroat that you're fishing for the second species?
Michael
Yes.
Katie
I know you said it went well, but tell me about the fishing. Was it again, you caught one and then had to help other people out, or was it all three just bang, bang, bang, and then you get to move on? How did it go, and was there any sort of urgency, or we need to get one, or anything like that?
Michael
Gray's River was great. It was the Snake River cutt. They came along pretty well. What's nice is once we were able to get the fish and we all caught them, then we could relax because we knew we were there for the day. we had the day to relax. That didn't happen on the Soda Butte later on in the trip. But this part of the trip was perfect because we caught them right away, they were easy, and then we could have a full day of just relaxing and fishing.
Katie
Okay. So it sounds like we'll get to the more challenging parts of the trip, but it sounds like for this part you had, I assume, a campground or somewhere. You had plans to sleep somewhere, and because of that, it's not like, "We all caught our fish at this time, so let's just drive to the next spot. Like you had to have somewhere to be in between that kind of dictated the schedule that you were on in a way.
Michael
With these forest service roads, and this is new to me, but as you go, you know, there's rules that you can sleep any spot off of the road. So we parked, first great spot we found, we parked, and we set up camp for the night. So we camped. We camped three nights. This was a camping trip after we left Pinedale, Wyoming.
Katie
But they weren't established campgrounds?
Michael
They were not.
Katie
Okay. Had you done that before and/or was there any concern about finding a spot like we were you concerned, you know as we're driving along What if we don't find anything at least out here in Colorado? It's not terribly hard to find a spot But if you go out in a weekend You know on some of the popular roads you might have to drive around for a while or settle for not a very good spot You know, is it challenging or were you worried about that?
Michael
We picked the middle of the week So there wasn't the weekend traffic so we knew we had about 20 25 miles of Grays River Road to find a place to park. So what so yeah It wasn't we were comfortable. We knew we could find somewhere and you know, I slept in the back of my car and Walter and Steve we actually had tents for them. So they had tents. I slept in the back of the Subaru, so.
Katie
Yeah, I guess Wyoming is hardly Colorado in terms of population So maybe it's a lot easier to find a dispersed site there.
Michael
Exactly. It was, it was both places. The Grays and then the Smiths Fork were easy, easy campsites.
Katie
Were you guys like worn out or focused enough that you were kind of just like get in, get to bed or was there kind of like a fun campsite, you know, vibe going on where, you know, you're catching your fish, things are going well. You can have a fire. Like how much was there actual camping versus like, we just need to sleep here so we can get on the road the next day.
Michael
No, it was nice. You know, we were done and we brought all our food, packed it all in. So, you know, by six o'clock we were done for the day, uh, each night. So we were able to sit back, relax. Um, it was very remote and I've not been that remote, uh, ever. So it was fantastic to be able to just sit back. It was dark, the sky, you could see the stars. So it was, you know, it was relaxing.
Katie
So, um, I assume next day you're waking up and now heading to your third destination.
Michael
We were. Day three, we were on to the Bonneville. And the Smith's Fork was, it was challenging. We had a day and a half there as well. And the first day, only Walter, Walter caught the one. So we had two of us, Steve and I, had half a day the next day to catch it. So the pressure was on.
Katie
Oh, wow. So like, were you catching anything else? Is there anything else in that river? Was it, was it struggling to catch this specific species or were you guys just not catching fish?
Michael
We just weren't catching fish.
Katie
Oh, wow.
Michael
Yeah, exactly. Surprising to me, because usually you go out and we missed a lot. And they were smaller fish. It was interesting. The Smiths Fork had a lot of beaver dams. So we switched over to dry flies, because right at the head of the- right where the dam begins, the fish were rising. So it's fantastic. They were small. But we switched over to the dry flies there. And that's what-- the three of us all caught them on dry flies.
Katie
OK, on the next day.
Michael
Yes, exactly. The Smiths Fort, the Bonneville, the last days when we caught them.
Katie
Okay. And so were they not rising the first day or was something else just going wrong? I know you can't always tell what went wrong or why you didn't catch fish, but do you have any insights on how you went a whole day without catching anything?
Michael
Well, it wasn't, we didn't get up at eight o'clock and we were fishing. We had about a 20 mile drive, 20, 25 mile drive. And we just kept driving until we found the designated or a good spot to camp. And that, you know, by the time we did that, got up, broke camp on the first day and finally found the Smiths Fork, the road, the Smiths Fork Road, it was 12, 1 o'clock.
Katie
Oh, okay. So you still, you had a whole day, but you kind of still only had about half a day to fish.
Michael
Exactly. And we had to set up camp. We wanted to make sure everything was good before, you know, before it got dark. And then we, you know, we knew we had the half of that day and then the next day. So, but the big thing was to make sure camp was set, trying to set that up in the evening would be kind of difficult.
Katie
Were you stressed at all about the fact that, you know, it sounds like up until this point things were going well and then suddenly, boom, like you don't catch something. Are you starting to like sweat a little bit about that or?
Michael
I wasn't. We joked. I said, you know, this really isn't your average relaxing kickback fishing trip. And maybe we just, we just, you know, we, we had come so far, 1500 miles. And I said, the intensity of this as the trip went on and the days went on, it grew and grew because it seemed like each day there was one of us that had not caught their fish. So it wasn't your normal go out, relax, hang out. It was like a mission. There was a mission there.
Katie
I assume there must have been some strategy too with trying different things. You got three people out there. You can kind of prospect a little bit in terms of what's working. So I assume you were throwing on different flies, trying different techniques and stuff like that to try to pinpoint what's working. Was that helpful at all if you were doing that?
Michael
It was. And you know what? I became very strategic most of the time and probably to my fault. You just charge in. You're not on any time frame. There's no pressure. But with this, I knew that time was running out, that we only had so much river. And so you don't just charge in. You scout out. see exactly what the, you know, maybe 200 yards of river looks like and then you pick and choose where you want to start. So it's very strategic.
Katie
So you go to bed that night, wake up the next day, and this is your half, you've got a half day and then maybe we'll get into, you know, why it's a half day, but I assume you have to travel then after this, and that's why it's a half day?
Michael
It was. It was actually, we had a half day, or the day, we had a little bit more than a half a day. We had three-fourths of a day, and that was the toughest fish, the Smith's We were about two miles from the end, and I had caught my Bonneville, Walter had caught his, and Steve was the last one. And we're driving, and I'm like, "Steve, we've got to get you on this fish." So we came up a huge, huge beaver dam, and you could see the fish rising. And we had to, we waited out, and finally got one on a dry, and it was great. It was great. Pulled that in, and we're all surrounding him with the nets ready to go, We knew if this guy got off, we were done. So, but yeah, we got it.
Katie
Were there any, like almost opportunities? Like I've been in similar situations where there's some sort of pressure to get a fish and it's like, I feel like I suddenly forget how to set the hook in those situations where they're coming up and hitting it. You're just like, oh my God, I cannot get the timing right. Was there any of that kind of like pressure induced like bad technique or anything?
Michael
Well, there was a little bit, Steve missed a couple and I was frustrated. I said, "Steve, you gotta set the hook. We are on the clock here, buddy. You have got to get these." And the fish were small, and I understand. We were in a kind of a compromised area. It was a marshy area, and we didn't have a great view. So he was casting, and I was watching. But we finally landed it. It just took, he missed a couple. So that complicated things a little bit. So, but luckily, the tough part of the trip, we were able to get all three.
Katie
OK. Going back just a hair, maybe I'm not doing the math right, or I don't know how long the drive took. But why are these- you said you had two weeks. Why are these so back to back? It seems like one day, then the next day, then the next day. In my mind, you're on day four right now with three species. So where is the rest of the two weeks going?
Michael
Well, honestly, it took three days to drive out there.
Katie
Oh, OK.
Michael
And it took three days to drive back.
Katie
So a whole week is spent driving.
Michael
Yep. And we, as we went on, it was crowded in Yellowstone. So we had hotel reservations in Jackson, 'cause we were over there over the holiday weekend, which was, looking back, probably a mistake. But we knew we needed to be in Jackson on Friday 'cause we had a hotel.
Katie
Okay.
Michael
So when we started in Pinedale, we knew each day was already mapped out. So we had to get through and be in Jackson.
Katie
Okay, that makes more sense. I guess maybe I was picturing just driving straight through and how long that might take instead of taking the full three days to get out there in each direction.
Michael
It was. And we had it with all the camping gear and everything else we had. That was our choice. We could have flown out there. I think we're going to fly out for Utah because it's six days of driving, six days you're not fishing.
Katie
Right. Right. So yeah, let's go on to the next one. So you've all got your three- all three of you've got your fish there, and you've got one species left. So walk me through the next leg.
Michael
So we spent two days in Jackson Hole, spent some time just kind of decompressing, just relaxing. And then on Sunday, we went to Flag Ranch, which is the entrance point, the east entrance to Yellowstone. Spent the night at Flag Ranch and got up the next day. And we drove in, entered the park, and we were going to try the lake, the Yellowstone Lake. So we traveled around the Grand Loop Road, for those of you that have been in the Yellowstone National Park, you've got the Loop Road that travels all the way around the lake. So we stopped at some spots right on Yellowstone Lake. We were throwing streamers. I think I had a white woolly bugger, and I actually caught my Yellowstone cutthroat right there at the lake, which was shocking, 'cause we weren't doing anything, but I did finally catch my Yellowstone cutt.
Katie
I feel like a lake can be kind of risky. Not that lakes can't be great fishing, but for some reason I feel like rivers tend to like, if you know what you're doing, you know how to read water, you know how to work a fly and get a drift. Generally you can catch a fish. I feel like lakes are a lot more finicky where they can be like lights out great fishing or you could go days and not catch anything, especially if you're limited to shore. So like that, I feel like that would be stressful.
Michael
There's a lot of shoreline. I fished in the lake 30 years ago out of a boat, but I've never fished the shoreline. So we just stopped. There's a lot of opportunity along Yellowstone Lake to get out. There's picnic areas. And we just, you know, we had the waders. We had, I think I switched up to a six weight. I did. I switched up and we just, you know, we were just, we probably stopped at five different spots and we saw one or two other anglers, but nobody was catching anything. I really, I was so lucky to catch the one I did. I was shocked. I can't believe that there's a fish on this. So I was done, my stress was over with. The other two, we still had a day and a half, two days for them. But yeah, Yellowstone's fantastic. It really wasn't, it wasn't dicey. It was just, I don't know if we were late for the season. I know some of the guide services in downtown Jackson said, "Oh, Yellowstone, fishing on the shoreline can be great, but you may be a little bit late in the season."
Katie
Did you truly feel like the stress was off because your portion was done or did you still feel the stress of like we need to get the whole group to finish it? Like how much did you kick your feet up after you caught yours?
Michael
My stress was over with and I knew I was gonna turn into an assistant. I was gonna be a guide. So when we moved on, the next stop was Soda Butte or Lamar. So we, for those of you that know that, or for Katie, that for you that know, we traveled all the way through Yellowstone and we had the Lamar River and Soda Butte. Those were the last two because we were heading out, heading to Cook City and heading home after that. So we had two rivers and of course we're driving and the Lamar is, it's all blown out. And it's, I was like, oh my gosh, if we've come all this way and we get to the Soda Butte and the Soda Butte is bad as this, then these guys aren't going to catch anything. And there was no going back at this point. So we ended up, the Soda Butte was good. It wasn't bad, the water was perfectly clear, there wasn't a lot of pressure from other anglers, so we really had a big section of the Soda Butte open.
Katie
Why was the first one blown out? I don't picture that time of year being a high flow time of year. Is it a tailwater they were letting water out of or something?
Michael
No, the Lamar, right there in the Lamar Valley, and I thought, because I fished that river quite a few times, and you know, the Lamar, the Soda Butte flows right down to the Lamar. And I said, "Oh, if the Lamar is blown out, what's the Soda Butte going to look like?" I don't know. They had had some storms a day earlier, so there was some rain that went through. It just didn't, it didn't affect the Soda Butte.
Katie
Okay, yeah, interesting. It's not that rain can't happen, but I picture- you said this is in the fall, right?
Michael
It was. It was in September.
Katie
Yeah, September, I feel like, is one of the nicest, driest, most perfect times to go fishing and not have to worry about water levels. So that would've been really surprising to me.
Michael
I think it was- I fished out of Cody at the Shoshone a year earlier, and the same thing happened. A storm came through in the Shoshone for two days. We sat and waited for it to clear up. And I think that's what happened with the Lamar, just that a storm that came through the night before. They had a lot of rain the last day or so. So.
Katie
And so I assume they were able to, you know, both get their fish on the river that was not blown out.
Michael
We were, we were sort of mute. It came down to Steve again. Steve was the last one on that. And it was, it was kind of comical. I was, I had my fly or my rod. I was changing flies, telling Steve after, you know, 10, 15 casts with one fly, we were switching it up. So it was, that's when it became a team effort. Walter was scouting, I was switching rods with Steve, I was tying new flies on. He was casting, focusing on the casting, and we were behind the scenes working on the new flies. Whatever he needed, we were switching out.
Katie
Just kind of a logistical question. What would be the protocol if you, for example, got a fish in, but maybe it jumped out of the net before you got a picture of it or something, where it's like, you caught this fish, And it sounds like this didn't happen. I'm just curious if you happen to know, would you be able to write to Wyoming Game and Fish and be like, I swear we had this fish, but it got away? Or do you have to stick around long enough to get a picture of the fish, and that is the requirement? It's not just getting it in the net.
Michael
You do. The rules are they want to see the fish. And so I had multiple pictures of each fish. On the water, you catch these fish, you want to have them in and out quickly. So we all had our cameras, and each one of us was taking extra pictures every time the other one caught it. So you have to have the fish in. You can't call and say, "Hey, we almost had it." They want documentation. They're pretty serious about that.
Katie
Okay, so it sounds like maybe the thing is you're not gonna get a beautiful trophy picture holding the fish up. You're probably gonna get kind of a terrible picture of it is very secured and in the net, maybe with a fly still in its mouth, just so if something were to go wrong, you've got the documentation, but it's not gonna be a photo you'd frame and put on your wall necessarily.
Michael
No, honestly, most of the times, We never picked up the fish. These fish were in the net. We pulled them up out of the water, took two or three shots quickly, and then released them.
Katie
OK. And when you saw that the Lamar was blown out, was it like, oh, no, we might not complete this? Or we need to turn around and go back up to the lake where you caught yours? Or is that too far behind you to kind of rethink the plan?
Michael
It was far. And I fished the Soda Butte a couple of times in the past. And I said, you know, we're about five miles up from where I usually fish, let's head up there and see what that's like. We can always come back. And the Soda Butte wasn't raging, but it was off color bad. So I said, well, worst case scenario, we can come back, but let's go up to Soda Butte, couple miles up the road, and we'll know real quick. And luckily, we get up there and it was perfect.
Katie
Okay, okay, well, that's good. It sounds like the lake worked for you, but it was not ideal anyway. Like you wanted to go down and try the rivers.
Michael
Right.
Katie
Was that because you wanted to fish rivers or because the lake was not doing well?
Michael
We fished the lake because it was there and it was on our path and some of the guides and some of the stores in Jackson said, "Hey, you ought to try this." It wasn't even on our radar to start with. We were always going to the Lamar and the Soda Butte in Jackson.
Katie
Gotcha. But you knew the lake was an approved water if you…
Michael
We did.
Katie
Okay.
Michael
We did. The Yellowstone Cutt is, you can catch the Yellowstone Cutt in the upper Yellowstone, Clarks Fork, Shoshone, and about five other waterways.
Katie
Okay, and these two were your only two options because they were along your route?
Michael
Right. - Gotcha. Because once we left Cody, I'm sorry, once we were in Cook City, we knew that we had a three-day trip back from Cody. So like I said, it was point A to point, we had this mapped out, we knew where we were going. We did have, I did say that, we could spend the night in Cody, get up the next morning. if we need to and come back and fish a couple hours.
Katie
For your trip back, were you limited by work schedules? Or if you had been one fish short, was there any chance of extending your trip by a day to make it work? Or was it a, we are leaving town at this time, and we have to be back for something?
Michael
You know what? We had work schedules to come back to. But if we needed to- and I told the guys. I said, you know, as we drove back, we went to Devil's Tower. We went to the Badlands. we went to Mount Rushmore, and that was part of the plan heading back. I said, "If Steve doesn't get this, "we're canceling all this, "and if we have to drive 18 hours in one day, "we're getting this guy the fish."
Katie
Okay, so the timeline was a little squishy. Like you could have squeezed it. It wouldn't have been as fun, I'm sure, but you could have done it had you needed to.
Michael
We were gonna do it, we were. And I know I make it sound like it was very set in stone, and it was, but when we came this far, we all had three fish, we made plans that we were coming back. we were getting Steve his fish.
Katie
So Steve gets his fish and now you submit to the Wyoming Game and Fish. Like what is that process like? Do they send you something? Do you get like a certificate or a patch or your name's emblazoned on something? I don't know, like what do you get?
Michael
It was fantastic. I was very impressed. They give you a medallion that says the cutt slam and they give you a, I don't know, eight and a half by 11, very nice quality, high quality cardboard picture with the fish that you caught. I'm sorry, the name of the fish, the name of the river you caught them, the date you caught them, and then your name.
Katie
Okay. So little certificates kind of.
Michael
It is, and I have to say I'm very impressed. They had it to us. It was very professionally done. It was nice enough that I framed it and have it in my office.
Katie
Oh, and one other kind of logistical question on this that I forgot to ask at the beginning is, do you have to let them know ahead of time that you're planning to do this? Or can you just randomly reach out and say, we did this?
Michael
It's a hundred percent random. There was no charge for the state of Wyoming. I know some of the other trout slams you have to register and sign up for. Really the state of Wyoming, they said, you know, once you're done, just send us the pictures, send us the documentation, and a biologist will go through and make sure what you said you caught was actually the fish that you caught, they document it, and they say, hey, he qualifies. Send him the certificate.
Katie
Were there any other species in any of the rivers you fished? Could you have feasibly caught a rainbow trout or something and then submitted it, and they were like, no, that's not what you were supposed to catch?
Michael
That was a real big focus for our group. We knew ahead of time. We knew exactly the colors. We knew exactly the spots. We knew everything about the fish we were supposed to fish. Cause there was a couple of times, you know, I've never in from Kentucky, I've never caught a Bonneville. Um, honestly, I've never caught a Colorado. So did some research ahead of time. So we knew exactly what we were catching. So were there, there were no false positives when you sent it in. The state said, yeah, thanks, but that's not, that's not the Bonneville. So.
Katie
But was there a possibility that you could have caught something else? Do you know, like, did you catch anything else that was not what your target species was in any of these?
Michael
We really didn't. We did not. That was-- it was interesting. All of these watersheds- I don't know if that's the right word- but all these rivers, they were full of exactly the fish that we were after.
Katie
I mean, that doesn't surprise me, because I feel like I don't find cutthroats mixed in with browns and brookies very often. And when they're mixed with rainbows, you're just going to get a lot of hybrids and- or other cutthroats, you're going to get hybrids. And I feel like those wouldn't be approved waters, because they don't want to deal with people not being sure of what they caught, I guess. So I feel like that's part of the whole approved waters thing, is that they know that's what's in here. I just wasn't sure if there was some small chance that you could have caught something else, but I'm not surprised, basically.
Michael
Yeah. I mean, I did not. We caught exactly what we were there to catch.
Katie
Well, just to wrap up, I want to hear what your future plans are. It sounds like you've got Utah next. Have you done enough planning for that yet that you have, You know what species you're going to catch or have a route planned or anything like that? Or is it still very much in its infancy?
Michael
Well, and it's, it's one of those things, the Utah Slam, you have the Colorado, you have the Bonneville, you have the Yellowstone cutthroat and you have the Bear River cutthroat.
Katie
So three of the same.
Michael
Very similar to what we, we caught here. Um, we're also, you know, you mentioned the Western Native Trout Challenge. I think that's fantastic. That, you know, the 12 states, 21 species. So what we're going to try to do is we're going to do the Utah trout slam, and then we're going to go up to Idaho and Montana and try to hit a couple of their group. And then hopefully, you know, the Western Native Trout Challenge has three different levels. You've got a six species, four states. You have the 12 species, eight states, or what they call the master level, and that's 18 species in 12 states. So we're going to try to do the, just the expert where you have the six different species in four states and the states that, that qualify or that accept this are, you know, Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Wyoming, and Washington. So we've got all these, I'd tell you our group, the Derby City group was shocked that these, these trout slams actually exist. And I think for me, it was just an epic trip and anyone that is looking to do something, mix it up a little bit from your normal, the same routine, these trout slams, they force you to research new areas and you really spend a lot of time learning about the demographics, or not demographics, but just the location, geography of where you're gonna be fishing.
Katie
Yeah, and I assume that- I don't know why there would be a conflict, but the trout that you're catching in these state slams can count toward the Western Native Trout Initiative challenge, as long as the approved waters overlap. Because you've got to catch them from a specific place for each one. So they can't be different places, but-
Michael
Right, well, like for the Utah Slam, we're going to be fishing- I think we're going to land in Salt Lake, go to the Provo, and then up to Ogden. And like I said earlier, all of these trout slams, The states have done a fantastic job. There's still a lot of work that you have to do, but the states offer great guidance to where these fish are and the different times of year to try to catch them the best. If you're really interested, you go and you Google the different states. Like I said, I was shocked. I was shocked in Nebraska or Missouri. They had the trout slams.
Katie
Yeah, that's surprising to me. I wouldn't have guessed those.
Michael
Well, Virginia actually has a trout slam, and you have to catch three fish, but they require it all in the same day.
Katie
Oh, OK. So there's different rules.
Michael
Different rules. California, they have six trout you have to catch. And California is such a huge state that I just don't know if you could do that on a two week trip. You almost have to be a resident or retired.
Katie
For the Virginia one, I guess when I think of the out West ones, they typically are native trout in their native range. Virginia, I picture maybe brook trout, but what are the other species in there? Are they not native then, you're catching?
Michael
No, they're not. And I've done the research on this. Nebraska, Missouri, they talk about the native, but they also say that these are stocked fish and they're accepted.
Katie
Okay.
Michael
They are accepted.
Katie
So is Virginia like brook brown rainbow? Is that the three that you catch for Virginia?
Michael
You know, I don't remember because I wasn't going to Virginia. I started looking and investigating, and I said, wow, look at all these states. And I noticed that they said three. So I don't remember which three they were.
Katie
I would assume-- I mean, that's the only three I know of on the East Coast. So I would guess that that's what they are. But it's funny that the difference between the really native-focused Western side and then we go to the East, it's like, it would be kind of boring if they just did a native trout slam. You catch a brook trout, and you're done.
Michael
Right. Well, Virginia puts a little bit of pressure on you. They require three fish in one day, three different fish. So you have to catch all three. So they're probably intermingled in each stream. So it's not like you have to travel different streams. But I don't know.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. Have you heard of the bass slams? I've talked to some folks recently from some of the southern states, like Alabama. And they've got bass slams because they've got so many different species of bass down there that- I don't know anywhere else in the country that does slams that aren't trout related. But they like to focus on the bass down there.
Michael
Well, you know, Kentucky A Field, um, picked up this story from the Colorado story and I started talking to one of the biologists at the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife. And I said, you know, it'd be fantastic if we could do a multi species slam here in Kentucky. You know, obviously we're not as fortunate as, you know, Wyoming and Utah to have all the different trout species, uh, in the different, the different waters, but so I'm working with them to, you know, we've got plenty of bass and, you know, maybe a catfish or a carp. Not sexy fish, I understand, but just for anglers in Kentucky that want to complete a slam. They're working on that. They're in talks, the group amongst themselves, on how they would support the certificates and the cost associated with that. I think it'd be fantastic.
Katie
Yeah, I think all of these are such a fun time. They get people more connected to their local waterways, they, like you said, they introduce people to new species they've never heard of or made them learn a little bit more about what they're fishing for instead of just mindlessly going out and fishing. Like, now you know where they're native to and all the different things that go into fishing for them. I think, you know, every state should adopt one. I'm actually really surprised that Colorado doesn't have a trout sim because we've got lots of subspecies in the state and a decent number of native ones. Although I know, at least for the Western Native Trout Challenge, at least our greenback cutthroat is not included in that even though it is a native trout because I think they don't want to pressure the resource because it's still very small populations that they're trying to bring back so it's like not included yet even though it's a native species.
Michael
Well it's funny I called Montana Fish and Wildlife and I said surely Montana would have a trout slam but they also are just part of the Western native trout slam they don't have their own independent trout slam.
Katie
Yeah that surprises me both Colorado and Montana strike me as like two of the biggest fishing states in the West. I agree,
Michael
I agree. I mean, if you look at the numbers for Wyoming's trout slam since 1996, when it started to last year, 2,380 people have completed this, the 1,300 outside of Wyoming and two outside of the US. So it's something, it brought people to the state of Wyoming. It helped their economy with whether it's guide services. it's all the way around. Like you said, the most important thing is it forces anglers to learn about the fish, the location, and for me it was all about the learning process. It was great. It was a great experience.
Katie
Do you happen to know if Alaska has a slam?
Michael
Well, they're part of the Western Native Trout Challenge, but I do not know if they have their own. You would think so. You would think Alaska would have with all the different areas up there to fish. But no, I just know they're part of the 12 states that participate.
Katie
I'm trying to picture having to string that trip together. You'd be doing your cross-country trip just to get from one part of the state to the other.
Michael
I'm going to have to save that for 15 years when I retire.
Katie
Well, Michael, this is a ton of fun. If you're game for it, I'd love to hear updates from you on your Utah Slam or the Western Native Trout Challenge when you get to those points. But There's so many different ways to complete these. You could do a slow burn over a long time, or you could do it like you guys did and squeeze it into a single trip. I just love hearing how people plan these things out and execute them. Happy for you that you and your friends got to make it happen.
Michael
Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Like I said, if you're looking for a different challenge and just something fantastic, a way to learn new waters, Google trout slams and the states that you want to visit, because Odds are they're part of something to do with some type of trout slaying. So it's a, it's a great opportunity, great experience.
Katie
Couldn't agree more. Well, thank you, Michael. I appreciate you coming on today.
Michael
Thanks, Katie.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Uh, thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. Um, you'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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