Ep 119: The Great Lakes Salmon Run, with George Kaider
George Kaider first came on the show (episode 95) to talk about fly fishing for pike. Now he is back to walk me through fishing for salmon in the Great Lakes, specifically king and coho salmon in Wisconsin. In addition to the gear, flies, and techniques needed for these species, he also throws in their other migratory species: lake-run browns and steelhead. We cover seasonality, bluelining some of the smaller tributaries, why fish eat when they’re not feeding, and much more.
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Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 119 with George Kaider on the Great Lakes salmon run. Well, last time we got a background on you at the start of the episode like we usually do, but considering you've been here before and not too long ago, people can go back. I'll put the episode number in the show notes. I don't quite remember what episode you were on, but we can skip all the formalities there and jump right into the content today, which is salmon fishing. So I'm excited to talk to you about that.
George
Yeah, thanks, Katie. I appreciate you having me back again. We talked about having this conversation again a year ago. And I was home, and I remembered us talking about that. And that's why I reached out again, because I was looking forward to talking with you.
Katie
Yeah, so last time we did a deep dive on pike. And I think we may have touched on maybe smallmouth bass a little bit. But I remember it was pretty heavily pike focused. And this time we're talking about Great Lakes salmon. I think I've been on a bit of a Great Lakes kick recently. I've done a couple on Steelhead and then some that were not Steelhead, but adjacent. I did a walleye one that's going to come out soon on Lake Erie. So I don't know what's going on right now, but I happen to be on a bit of a Great Lakes kick. So one of the things you mentioned—
George
That's great, because it's a I was going to say, it's a super amazing fishery and how it came to be. and you know I'm always excited to talk about this subject.
Katie
Yeah, so as far as how it came to be, I saw that you had mentioned that the history is really interesting. So maybe let's start there and tell me the history of the Great Lakes salmon species.
George
Well, it is an interesting history and one of the things that I love about fly fishing is studying the history of the sport. And I was a former history teacher. I taught history for 10 years. And so doing deep dives into the sport of fly fishing has always been really fun for me. And so originally, Lake Ontario had an amazing run of Atlantic salmon dating back to the mid-1800s. And that was actually fished out to extinction. And so there was a history of Atlantic salmon, at least in Lake Ontario. I don't think they made it any further than Lake Ontario, I'm not sure on that one. But then, so there was no fishery and the main fish in the Great Lakes was a whitefish. In the later 1800s, brown trout were introduced in the Pierre Marquette River in Michigan and steelhead were brought over from the Pacific Northwest. And both of those were kind of experimentations at the time too, to see if they would thrive and live in the cold waters of the Great Lakes. And they did. And what they noticed early on was that these brown trout that were originally stocked in the Pierre Marquette River in Michigan started making their way up the rivers to spawn. And then they'd go back out into the lakes, and some would stay in the rivers, and some would become migratory brown trout. And so it was really interesting. And they started moving those brown trout to the other Great Lakes, too, and they really thrived in Lake Michigan. And the steelhead, same thing. They were brought over to be a sport fish, and they did very well in the cold, clean waters. And they started migrating up the rivers as well, and growing to really huge sizes. Both of those species did, actually. So we have brown trout that are over 40 inches. My personal best is a 38-inch brown trout in one of the tributaries here in Wisconsin. I have a buddy who caught a 42-inch one. The steelhead get gigantic as well. It's really interesting. But there was a problem in the 1900s, mid -1900s, and really with the Industrial Revolution and around the Great Lakes and all the shipping and industry that was coming in from the Atlantic Ocean was bringing an invasive species. And it's a fish known as an eowipe. And that fish was eating the fry and the eggs of the whitefish, which was the big sport fish of the Great Lakes. And that was the fishery, was the whitefish. And so biologists started seeing the numbers of the whitefish just declining like crazy. And they're going, what's going on here? And what's happening to this amazing fishery? And they realized what was happening. These alewives were eating the fry and the eggs. And so they needed to find a species that would eat the alewives. And it was 1965 where the biologists said, you know, the brown trout aren't doing it. The steelhead aren't doing it. Maybe we can put a salmon in here and see if a chinook or coho would do it. And so about a year later, in 1966 to 1970, well, those four-year period, millions of chinook and coho salmon were stocked in Lake Michigan. I'm not as familiar with the other Great Lakes as much as I am Lake Michigan because it's my local fishery and it's where I guide, it's where I fish. I know the tributaries here on the Wisconsin side. I know the Michigan side pretty well also because I do go over there and fish. But it was like this amazing story because here these alewives were this invasive species that were taking over Lake Michigan and just that very first generation of king salmon and coho started eating the alewives and became the food source for the Great Lakes salmon and it worked. And so that was the introduction of salmon into the Great Lakes and since then king, coho, these huge brown trout, huge steelhead have become the main migratory species of Lake Michigan and other Great Lakes as well.
Katie
It sounds like this was one of the rare instances where a species was introduced to wipe out another one and didn't have catastrophic consequences, unless there's something you left out there. But I didn't get the impression that the salmon demolished all the other fisheries out there. Were there any unintended consequences like that of putting such an apex predator into this ecosystem?
George
No, there were none. And that's one of the fascinating things about the story, is they weren't quite sure what was going to happen. And they weren't sure if the salmon were going to spawn, to begin a migratory path, if they were going to imprint on these rivers that they were, where the fry were planted. You know, it was just a big guessing game, and when you read about it, there's some really good articles out there from the time period, and also looking back and reflecting on it. There's some good YouTube videos also about this topic, and it turned out to be just a kind of an amazing match, you know, where all of these migratory fish that were introduced in the Great Lakes thrived. And now they all are a great sport fishery, but also require our states and our bordering states to maintain clean water and make sure that a lot of the runoff coming from the different areas into these tributaries are clean enough to not pollute the waters to keep these fish safe. So it's really been a wonderful blessing.
Katie
Do you happen to know how long after the introduction that there was a sport fishery? Was it immediate or were they trying to make a big enough dent on the alewives before they opened up salmon fishing to the public, thinking, "We don't want everyone coming in here and walking away with salmon and then we're left without the species that we put in here intentionally. Do you happen to know how long it was before they opened it up?
George
It was pretty quickly, within the first few years, because I remember reading that the first salmon that were being caught through the sport fishery were only in that five to ten pound range. And so they had a good idea that they would make it and survive and it would become a great sport fishery as well because of the brown trout and the steelhead. already have been around for about 100 years up until that point. And so there was really a strong chance the salmon would survive and do well. The only question they had, they weren't sure of, is would they eat the alewives? That was the big question. And they did. And it was the absolute savior of the Great Lakes whitefish.
Katie
At this point, are they self-reproducing? Is the population self-sustaining, or do they continue to stock for anything more than just adding a few more fish for people to catch?
George
So it's a really interesting deal. I don't really know what's going on in Lake Superior or the other Great Lakes, but I can speak for Lake Michigan in that on the Wisconsin side, we do not get any natural reproduction. So our side of Lake Michigan is runoff and rainwater dependent. And so the fish will imprint on the rivers. And they'll come back into the rivers where they were spawned by the DNR. And they'll go through the motions of reproduction. You'll see females building reds and males lined up behind or fighting for position. You'll see all that. They're going to go through the entire reproductive process, but the eggs just don't take. They can't make it. Our water's too warm, too much runoff. On the Michigan side, however, they do. And so there's many rivers on the Michigan side where natural reproduction is successful and thriving and does well for all four species of migratory fish. But on our side, none of them do. You'll see the browns going through their reproduction, the steelhead will in the spring as well, and the eggs just don't take. The population as a whole is completely dependent on a DNR spawning. We have facilities, several, I want to say we have three or four on the Wisconsin side and the Michigan side does as well, where eggs are captured and the fertilization is done at a spawning facility. Without that, there would be spawning, but not enough to sustain a large sport fishing population.
Katie
You may have inadvertently answered my next question, which was, which species are present there? And you said four species of migratory fish. I'm assuming that's the browns, the steelhead, the cohoes, and the kings. Are there any other species that are there? Or is it just those two salmon species that were put in?
George
We also have some pink salmon too. And so I know there's pink salmon in the Milwaukee River because I've caught them. And that's a smaller size salmon. I don't know much about the history of when that was introduced. I haven't seen pink salmon in any of the other tributaries. They might be in there, but I just haven't seen it. But when you really talk about the migratory fish in Lake Michigan in particular, you're talking about four main species. And it's really interesting because you really can't talk about one without talking about the others. And even though our focus today is the salmon run, the whole process of the migratory fish is kind of needs to be addressed in one. So we have, and I'll walk you through this right now because it answers your question. The season begins really around September 1st, and usually in the typical year, the kings, which are chinooks, will start running first. And for the month of September, we're going to get a really, really amazing run of king salmon. And they're going to make their way up our tributaries, but it's rain dependent on the Wisconsin side. So for example, we were in a really severe drought this September, and we had about, even in late September, first week of October, we had five days where it reached into the mid-80s. And so the run was late this year. And not only was it late, but the numbers were down, and a lot of fish either died in harbors or in the lower sections of the rivers before they can make their climb. But typically that king salmon run is going to be from September 1st through October 1st. And that's where you're going to find thousands of fish in our tributaries. It's really, really amazing. And it's a beautiful thing to get out there, especially when you start getting on some some of these fresh king salmon that can reach over 30 pounds. They're huge. Around October 1st, in a typical year, through November 1st, is when the coho now start coming in. And there's usually a little bit of an overlap as well between where you'll still get some fresh kings when the coho start coming in. And that month is really exciting because now we're going to also start seeing some steelhead coming in and some of the browns will start moving in. When the steelhead come into the tributaries in the fall, they're not spawning. They spawn in the spring. But they're just eating. They're eating salmon eggs. So they're just kind of gorging on the salmon. And a couple of years ago, my My son caught a monster 36-inch steelhead that was sitting right behind a female. He was throwing his egg-nimping rig, and that steelhead took and gave him about a 20-minute battle. It was awesome. But that steelhead was just there to eat eggs. When the brown trout start coming in, some of them will come in for the same purposes, to eat eggs too around that time. But after the coho, around November 1st through the month of December is where we get the big push of brown trout. And the brown trout are spawning in the fall. So they come in around November and they're spawning. And they're really heavy right now. We got a really good rain about a week ago and the brown trout are just everywhere. And I've got buddies that are out just catching just monster fish. So a really good migration of brown trout this year. So that's kind of the fall run. And that's why I say you can't really talk about one without talking about the other because they're so interdependent. And so, and then when the, and obviously I think most of us know that when salmon spawn, they die. And so the river is filled these dead and dying salmon, but the steelhead, they don't. And the browns, they don't die. So they're going to head back out into Lake Michigan and grow some more and be ready for next year's run again. So throughout the winter, once the salmon run is over, we still are left with this amazing fishery of brown trout and steelhead that'll stay in the tributaries throughout the winter. And then some will stay in for the spawn. And then there'll be a whole other push of steelhead around March 1st for the official steelhead run in the Great Lakes. And that's just a whole other exciting season then that lasts for about two months. And you know, and then we just wait till the following September, And in between, we have the incredible smallmouth bass, musky pike, and all that stuff going on. But when the salmon season starts, it's an exciting time of year. Because not only are we fishing still for the warm water species, but now we've got this whole other option of fishing. And I know my clients just love salmon fishing, because it's sight fishing. It's super fun and relatively easy. You don't have to make these bomber casts. You just need to be able to mend it decently. And so, but anyway, that's kind of the story of the migration of the four species and how they kind of live and work this thing out together, because there's times where they're all in there together. It's really cool.
Katie
I usually end up asking this question on any episode where we're talking about a migratory species, but is the season that you can fish for them dictated by laws or is it dictated by when they come in? Could you legally go fish for these salmon in the middle of July? I'm not saying you would catch one. I'm saying that you could stand out there and go through the motions. Would you legally be allowed to do that, but you just wouldn't catch one because they're not in there? Is there a season that says you are allowed to start fishing for them on this date?
George
No, there's no preset date. They're just not there. You know, like for example, what I do every year is, obviously I can't take out clients until I know the fish have moved, you know? And so I have friends that live in the Milwaukee area that will tell me, and they'll scout out the rivers for me. 'Cause I'm about 40 minutes away from my nearest tributary, so it's not a big drive, but a phone call is a lot easier, obviously. But like this year, I made six different trips out scouting four or five different rivers and trying to say, hey, where are these fish? Are they running? Are they pushing? Are they starting to build reds? You know, and I'm out there in waders. I don't even bring a rod with me. I'm just walking, hiking the river, you know? So I wanna make sure that they're in. And then when they're in, you know it, 'cause they come in by the thousands. I mean, it's just absolutely amazing. It's really similar to when you see these pictures out in the Pacific Northwest of just thousands of salmon everywhere. That's what we get here. It's really cool.
Katie
Are there a main set of tributaries that they come up, like the main stems of tributaries of the lake? Or do they then branch off those tributaries into tributaries of the tributary? I guess what I'm trying to get at is, are there a handful of locations that people know about, and that's where you go to fish for salmon? Is it kind of like, you know, the possibilities are endless and you can kind of sneak back into these little feeder tributaries that will have salmon?
George
Yeah, I know. It is. It's amazing. That's a great question because I was fishing last year with a buddy of mine who comes up from Tennessee and he's actually up right now. I wish I could fish with him, but I'm recovering from his back surgery. But there are tributaries of tributaries that are only a few feet across and you'll be like, "Oh my gosh, there's a 30-pound king salmon sitting right there." So I think they just kind of get lost sometimes. I don't know. Because I know the DNR didn't plant any yearlings in there. not like they imprinted on these little tiny feeder streams you know but so I do think they kind of get lost sometimes. When you watch them migrate it's really fun to watch. Sometimes I just go and I just like hiking around and and just seeing what they do because they really will will follow a pattern and so when they're making their run they're pushing you'll see a group of fish just kind of follow the same pattern where they'll push to a bank they'll scoot up that they'll find a deeper section of water, push through, they'll hang out. If they've got to climb a run, they'll kind of hang out below the run first. Then when they make their climb onto the top of the run, they'll sit and they'll wait at the top of the run. Sometimes they'll just stay there. I find a lot of spawning fish at the top of runs. But I think when they're doing that, sometimes they find this water and these little tribs of tribs and sometimes they're only a few feet across. You can jump over them and you'll find you'll find all four species in these places. It's pretty cool. I don't think many people go out and try to explore fish in them, but I know I have, and they're in there. It's really neat.
Katie
How would you recommend-- if somebody wanted to do a blue lining trip for salmon, get away from some of the more crowded areas and check these places out, is it a matter of just walking around and seeing which ones have the salmon? Or is it reliable that you go to these feeder streams, And they'll probably each have a handful of lost fish in them.
George
It kind of depends on the river. Because on the Wisconsin side, we don't really have a river that lends itself for float trips. So right now, from the Sheboygan River down to the Illinois border, basically, Kenosha, there are I think I fished like six different rivers, six different tributaries of Lake Michigan. They're just tributaries. To those tributaries, for example, the Menominee River that runs through Wauwatosa, which is a Milwaukee suburb, and then into Milwaukee, there's a few tributaries of that. And they're really small, and they'll get a really nice salmon run, a really nice steel run, and they'll make their way all the way up into Honey Creek, which is a tiny little creek off of the Menomonee River. So you can find those kind of spots if you want to that are like these more like little trout streams with giant salmon sitting in them. But there's no secrets. The one thing about like when it comes to the migratory fish is that there's only so many tributaries, right? So anybody that wants to fish them knows where to fish them. Now, do they know how to catch them? That's a different story. Do they know how to approach the fish technique-wise and how to go about making the cast and using the right flies and eggs and all those things? That's a whole different deal, but there's just not really any secrets. And so what I do is I'll go to the Milwaukee River and the Menominee River first because they have the most reliable water. So like the Milwaukee River, even though it was very low this fall, typically will hold still over 250 cfs and that's enough to get a push of salmon. And same thing with the Menominee, where we fish on the Menominee River, is not far from the harbor. And so those fish can find some pretty deep water right up until when they start making their push up some of the runs. Some of the smaller rivers that don't have as much dependable water really rely on rain. And if they don't get rain, I won't even bother going and checking it out because they're not going to be there or they're going to be sitting in two inches of water on their side and just dying. It's more about knowing the watersheds, knowing how much water is in the river. I'm checking gauges all the time, the USGS, the CFS, and you just got to know it. I've been fishing for so many years that I'm pretty good at knowing, "Okay, they should be in. Let's go give this a shot."
Katie
Do they behave any differently in those smaller tributaries to the larger river? Like in terms of feeding, I mean, like the techniques you would use to catch them, are they any different?
George
A little bit, only because of space. So for salmon, they don't run off the rivers until they've reached reproductive maturity. And that occurs at year four. So when they're four years old, that's when they're going to You know, it depends on the size of the river, you know. So, like, for example, the Milwaukee River is one of my favorites because there's so many really cool sections to fish and I'm actually going to be developing a float trip for the Milwaukee River, so I'm super excited about that because I think I've got some put-ins and take-outs that I can use. But you're not casting for salmon from a boat, you know. You where you can use, you can throw an indicator with an egg pattern, or you can swing flies, or you can strip flies. And I love to spay cast, and it's one of my favorite ways of catching salmon in all four migratory species. And so that's the river that I can take my two-handed rod out there and really get after it, you know. The Menominee River, I can still use my two-handed rod in a couple of the sections, but basically every other river requires, I can't two-handed spay, I've got to use my one-hand spay rod and single-hand, and that's fun too, and I enjoy doing that, but they're just, they're not wide enough, you know, and so there's no reason to be trying to cast, you know, 80 to 100 feet on, you know, just these dynamic spay cast, because you're only talking about a river that's 50, 60 feet across at the most, where the Milwaukee River and the Sheboygan River too will allow you to spay cast, and that's a super fun way of approaching them. So that's the other thing I think is really cool too about these migratory fish is that all four species, you approach them the exact same way. And so you've got basically three different ways you can fish them, with a fly rod at least. One would be like an indicator rig with an egg pattern. And two is you can swing flies with a sink tip with a traditional setup. So I do that a lot with my clients as well. If they're just not ready or they're not interested in learning how to spay cast or single hand spay, I'll just use one of my sink tips and we'll tie a fly in and we'll swing it that way. And then the third way obviously is swinging flies through with a spay rod. So those are the three ways that I fish for them and it's all are fun and super effective. And so I think when you see most fly fishermen out there, they're doing the same thing.
Katie
Is the choice of technique based on anything other than just what sounds fun to you to do? Is there a benefit to using one versus the other? I don't mean, obviously, if you're trying to cast farther than a spay rod might help with that, but is there like a, "Oh, at this time of year, the salmon are doing or eating this, and therefore we're going to choose this technique to complement that," or is it just like, "What do you like doing?"
George
Yeah, I think a lot of it's preference, but also there's a couple things to keep in mind about the migratory fish is that when the salmon come into the tributaries, they're actually not eating at all. And so that is strictly a reactionary bite. You're basically just aggravating them. They are there to spawn, reproduce, and die. That's what they do. It is an absolutely beautiful life cycle when you watch them go through it and you see these fish making their push up the river and all that, but it's strictly a reactionary bite. Now with the steelhead and the brown trout, they're going to eat. I mean, a lot of the bites are reactionary, but I've seen some big brown trout and steelhead chase down a fly. So I know they're still, they're trying to eat. But that salmon, the coho will chase down a fly more than a king. A king's not going to move much for a swinging fly, for example. Or even an egg pattern. So if I'm throwing an egg pattern at a king, you've got to put that egg within a few inches of the fish's mouth or it's just not going to move like that. A lot of folks really enjoy fishing for coho because coho will chase and take a fly. that's super fun you know but yeah the the approach to to catching these I think it depends on the water you're fishing too so if I'm fishing like a shallow run that has a couple of nice cuts in the bottom where I know there's fish sitting and maybe I can't really get a swing a fly in there too well but I can really drift a nice get a nice egg to drift through with an indicator I'll I'll use that approach. If I see a female is building a red and there's males behind her, it can be a lot easier to fish those males with an egg pattern rather than trying to swing a fly through there 'cause she might be the one to take it. And I try not to catch the female. Like I said, you're not interrupting a spawn 'cause the eggs aren't gonna take. So catching fish in the Wisconsin side on the tributaries is you're not like fishing unethically or any way by fishing a spawning female that's building a red because more than likely that fish might've already been spawned out by the DNR in the fish hatchery too. But like I said earlier, they're going through the process and it's still really fun to watch them go through the process. So I think it depends on the water, you know. If I've got a stretch of nice, kind of wide, slow water with the depths of about maybe waist deep, no, not a run, just kind of a bucket, that's where I love to swing flies, you know. So like if I'm taking either myself or with clients, I usually make sure I've got a couple rods rigged for each application. And 'cause, you know, you don't wanna be making trips back up to the cars and you gotta have it all with you. So there's kind of a purpose for each style. But I'd say there's a lot of purists out there that really only wanna spay fish. I kinda get that way in the winter months in November, December, January, that's my time to spay fish. 'Cause I just know that the steelhead and the browns are gonna really charge after that fly. When it comes to the Kings, I would say I go kind of go back and forth, but most of the, I would say about 75% of the time I'm fishing King salmon with an egg and indicator rig. And then coho, I'm probably closer to 50/50. And even with clients, because once those coho, the fresh coho come in, they are really aggressive. And it is super cool to watch and see it happen. And you know, so much of this is site fishing, that 'cause our water is really clear. And the excitement of just seeing these fish take that fly or seeing that indicator go down and hooking up to a 30 pound king. And it's just super cool. And I can't say enough about how exciting it is. And there's in typical years, if I go out fishing for eight hours by myself or with clients, we can expect 20, over 20 hookups, 20, 25 hookups. Now the landing of fish is a whole different story 'cause they're huge, so they're gonna break you off. And so if you're between 25% and the 50% landing the fish ratio, you're doing pretty good 'cause of how big these fish are. And so much of our water is so super clear that we've got to go with a really small tippet. And so 10 pound tippet for a 30, 40 pound fish is pretty light, you know? So we do lose our share of fish, which is fine. But you got to get that eggs and kind of dance naturally. Otherwise, that fish is not going to take. So I'd say it's all dependent on what type of water you're actually fishing and the species, too. Because the kings really won't chase a fly down the way the other three species will. So if I'm just king fishing next September, I'm pretty much going to be throwing egg patterns.
Katie
Do you happen to know what the theory is about why these fish will take something like an egg pattern as a reactionary strike? 'Cause I'm trying to think about other situations where there are reactionary strikes. And I'm picturing people who fish like when bass or panfish are spawning And they're known for flying off their beds to attack, I guess, what they perceive as a threat to their nests. And I'm not necessarily advocating for the ethics of that. But just fish can get aggressive toward things that they view as a threat. But even if you are using a big old streamer, I can't imagine these 30, 40 pound fish would view that as a threat, let alone an egg pattern. So it's got to be something other than feeling threatened. So do you know why there's still a reactionary strike there when they're not hungry and they're presumably not threatened either?
George
Yeah, I just, it's not a threat, it's just kind of, you know, they just take it. It's just there. I don't know if it's an agitation thing. I mean, I watch them do it, you know. But you definitely, with the kings, you got to put that, you got to put that egg, and that's within a few inches of a fish's mouth. They're not going to move. Like a steelhead, you watch a steelhead take an egg pattern. That steelhead will move a foot either side to go get that egg, because that's the owner who wants that egg. But the kings, they won't. It's got to be within, I would say, maybe like three inches or four inches to the left or to the right of their mouth. And they'll make a subtle move to take it. But a lot of times, it takes a ton of cast because they're not going to take it. I don't know. I just-- it's hard to understand nature sometimes because I just think it's an aggravation thing. It's like, this is my home. I'm building a nest, building a red. And anything that does not look like it belongs, I'm gonna eat it. That's kind of the way I take it at least. I see, the funny thing too, is I see bass doing the same thing. So, in late April or early May when the bass are building their reds and I see them on it, and anything near it, they'll come off of it. Like just for fun, I don't fish bass when they're on the reds, but I'll show a client, I'll throw one kind of near it, I'll just make a cast kind of near it, and as soon as that fly hits the water, boom, that fish will come right off that rod. So, I just think they're triggered to do that, you know? But watching these salmon and these migratory fish behave in their spawning pattern, that's half the fun of it too, you know? 'Cause when you, I know typically a lot of people call 'em beds or they're building a bed. But most of us fly fishermen will refer to it as reds because that's a Scottish word. And it's interesting because it's a part of my history of fly fishing. But to the Scots, redding is a verb and a noun. So they would say from the Atlantic salmon run, that fish is redding. It means to tidy up in Scottish. And then once that fish is tidied up, now they have a red, so now it's a noun as well. So I've always just kind of taken, I call them reds for that reason because I love the history behind that phrase and how it developed. But watching them go through that process and catching them on the red when the females there and the males are lined up behind her, that's just, it's super cool. I think most of us try to target the males because they're just fighting for position anyway.
Katie
Do you happen to know on the Michigan side, is it still considered bad form to catch a fish on a red because those eggs might actually be viable?
George
I think it kind of is. Here's the thing, salmon fishing has, it's got a love/hate spot with anglers and it's because of that. So when we're out here on these tributaries and I know it goes on in Michigan, I know it goes on in the Pacific Northwest too, is that you'll get gear guys, you'll get fly guys that are out there snagging these fish, you know, and they're going to try to floss them, they're going to try to just, you know, snag them somewhere near the mouth or in And so because of that, it gets a little bit of a bad rap, you know, sometimes. And I think if it's done properly and you're fishing them properly, you don't have to approach it that way. So for example, I would say probably 75 to 80% of the fly fishermen that I see out there are just chucking ducking. You know, they've got a split shot and an egg and they're just throwing it out there. And I think a lot of them are just, you know, kind of don't care if they're gonna floss that fish or if they're gonna snag it or whatever, but I strictly use an indicator. I'm strictly getting a proper mend and getting that fly where it needs to be, avoiding any kind of situation that might floss a fish or snag a fish. You know, it's really easy. I mean, if you can see a fish, you can tell if you're gonna snag it the drift you're getting, right? So it's not like, you know, it's not like it's unavoidable. You can avoid it and if it's done properly. So I think the key is using an indicator because if you're using an indicator you're getting a good true dead drift by that egg pattern and I think that solves a lot of that, those concerns. As far as fishing on the reds themselves, that's the thing it doesn't really matter on the Wisconsin side but on the Michigan side I think there is concern about that and I think there are a lot of people that are viably against it.
Katie
So you've mentioned eggs a lot and then swinging what I assume are decent-sized streamers, but tell me kind of what the fly selection is like and you compare it with the different techniques that they go with. I mean obviously you're not going to be rapidly stripping an egg pattern, but tell me what the flies are and how you use them properly.
George
Yeah for sure. So let's talk about the egg setup first because it's going to be used for all four species almost identically. So okay so here's the deal you're gonna want your typical nine foot for salmon well let me bring this back a little bit for Kings I use a 10 weight for coho I'm usually using an 8 weight but sometimes I'll still keep the 10s out. We get some huge coho too and they will run and jump and it's crazy so but for the Kings I'm using a 9 foot 10 weight for the Browns and for the steelhead I'm pretty much always on my eight weight and like I said coho and go back and forth. Floating line and I usually build a pretty long leader so around nine and a half to ten foot leader and my typical leader construction is for the Kings is going to be 25, 20, 15 you know in kind of that about three foot sections you know and then what I do is is I run and that'll be straight fluoro carbon and I'll run that to a swivel it's a number seven swivel and it acts as like as a tippet ring but it also gives you weight too so now you're not you're only dealing with one split shot instead of two or three so that swivel has a has a couple of really good purposes and and And when I usually get other fishermen hooked into this setup, they love it. They never go back. They're like, "Oh my gosh, this swivel is amazing." Because you got that, it serves as a tippet ring, but then it also allows that tippet section down to your egg to move way more independent of itself too. And it acts as a weight, so it serves three purposes. But well, it serves a fourth purpose, I guess, because now when you put your split shot right above that swivel, it acts as a stop that split shot too so that's nice and so the split shot size really depends on the depth that you have to get that down to but I usually only use one split shot because I have the swivel because everybody knows that when you are nymphing split, split shots just stink you know it's it's a it's a pain in the butt so from that swivel then you're gonna want to run about 18 to 24 inches the tibet section and sometimes if it's super low and clear I'll go down to an 8 pound but that's awfully light I usually fluctuate between a 10 pound tibet and 12 pound somewhere in there but 10 seems to be perfect I really think 10 gives you a nice drift with an egg or a nymph pattern of some kind and and it's gonna work out just fine for you you're still gonna land quite a few fish. You'll lose some, but you're still going to land enough. So that's kind of the rig. That's my setup. I think, you know, people talk about using nymphs and stone flying nymphs and you know, those types of things. But I don't. I mean, I only use an egg pattern. And so to me, it's just, it's what's effective. It's what catches fish. I don't really see the need to be throwing all kinds of nymphs because what they see more than anything on the river are eggs floating down the river. You know, we don't really get these nymphs if they're gonna get a reactionary bite off of an egg, I'm gonna take it. Now when it comes to steelhead and browns, yeah, not now. You can start throwing, you know, different kinds of nymphs if you want to because they're gonna be much more apt to take something like that than the salmon will. So I strictly stick with egg patterns. Color seems to matter. So over the years and size of the egg too. So over the years what I've come to notice is that the number one color for me has been a chartreuse with like a red blood dot that I just I built into the egg and that seems to be the most productive. You know once in a while I'll go to a peach with a red blood dot and that seems to be very effective too but that's about it you know and nothing else seems to really do as well, like bright orange, bright red. You know, I know the spawn sack guys on gear, they're using red and orange all the time, they're catching them. But for a fly fisherman with a single egg, that, it just seems to be chartreuse, seems to be the magic color, at least on the rivers blackfish. So that's my setup for the floating line, throw an indicator with an egg pattern. Some people will go out and they'll fish a double rig. You know, I just, I never do. I mean, even when I'm trout fishing, I'll strictly fish. If I'm nipping, it'll be just one nip. If I'm dry flying, I'm just gonna throw a dry. So I don't even do any kind of like dry dropper thing. Only because even really good casters are gonna get tangled up. So when you start thinking about the time that you have to untangle, you know, a double rig, just doesn't seem to make a difference to me. And just like all nipping then too, you're gonna set that indicator at a spot where you can get your best dead drift, you know, and get good mending and you're working that egg. And here's the other point I want to make about this is the approach to these salmon. You can't fish them like you would a a trout in a river. You can't just, you can't cast directly upstream and bring it right down through their face. It's just, it doesn't work that way. You know, what I like to do is I like to position myself parallel to the fish, a little bit, maybe about three feet upstream of the fish, of their nose, and then I can work my men so much easier. You know, you can position the fly, you can get that fly to where it needs to be, you can control it, you can throw in as many mends as you need to to slow that fly down and keep it down on the bottom. And then you're going to get takes. I'll see a lot of fishermen that are out there and they're, even the ones that are using indicators, they'll be casting straight upstream and bringing it right through those fish and they're just not able to control the fly. They can't mend. They're just strictly relying on a drift. And when you can mend, you're obviously going to be able to position that fly where it needs to be. So that's the approach I use with the eggs.
Katie
And how about streamers or any of the flies that you're stripping or swinging, I guess?
George
Yeah, yeah. So I do strip, too. So that's why I was making that distinction earlier. And I'm not sure if I was clear enough on that. do sometimes is I'll take my my same same deal usually a 10 weight or an 8 weight but just with my sink tip you know and and I'll just attach kind of a shorter leader section onto that where I usually don't go over about three feet and I usually only do it like a double taper on that maybe like a 2010 or fluorocarbon but it's pretty short so I do want that to get down there and Now you're just using all your typical fly casts that you would for any species and stripping that fly through. You know, and the browns will chase it, the coho would chase it. You know, it's super fun just the same way you would strip a fly for any other species on a river. But the flies themselves are pretty small. So I would say most of my migratory flies are intruder patterns and they're usually the most three four inches but you know I'd say most of them are in that two to three inches that's it you know and it's super fun to tie those flies too because you can use all different color combos and and they look beautiful because you're using a lot of caribou and and they just got a really neat look to them but I typically will tie them up in a different variety of colors and and materials and just kind of go with the hot hand whatever I think is working that day as far as color goes and and then you can just strip those through you can let them swing you know kind of however you want with it just a conventional overhand cast and and just fish it through and the third the third approach would be spade casting or skagit casting with a one hand single hand or two-handed rod and and now in that situation is different because you're not stripping the fly in, you're strictly letting it swing. And here in Wisconsin, most of us that are into two handed spay casting, we actually use a Skagit head. And so it's a shorter head, our rivers aren't super wide like the Pacific Northwest, and so it's a more suitable style of fishing with a Skagit rig rather than a Scandi rig. But in that situation, we're using spay casting techniques letting that fly just swing through the current, swing from one spot to another and recasting and working our way downstream as we go. And that's super fun because you can cover a lot of ground. And so I think that's really neat. And you are literally sweeping the river. And so if you get a couple of guys out there that are good spay fishermen, you're gonna cover some ground and get into quite a few fish. It's really super fun. And, but that's a whole another deal is learning how to spay cast. But I'll tell you, Katie, I just love it. I'm addicted to it. Saltwater fly fishing is one of my favorite things to do. And I'm not sure what I like best, saltwater or spay casting. It's just, it's amazing. And it's just super repetitive and the casting is beautiful. And then when you hook into one of these huge migratory fish, it's just a bonus. So yeah, that's kind of the ways I approach it and the different setups.
Katie
And what's it like once you hook into one? 'Cause I've seen these fish, I mean, you've said that they will often break you off and you're not landing maybe with the majority of them, but once you get one on the line, what are you in for?
George
Gosh, it's just an absolute yard sale out there. It's crazy. The fish, okay, so the Chinook, It depends on how fresh you get them. With the Chinook, if you get them fresh and you get into like a chrome king just right out of the lake or maybe one that's been in the river for a week or something, they are going to run you to your backing. There's a section of the Milwaukee River that I fish up at Clutch Park and there's a couple bridges. There's a railroad bridge and And then there's another road bridge downstream. And I would say from one spot to another is like a quarter mile. And I've had Kings run me that far. I mean, unbelievable. Where you're, you're running, you're, you're into your backing and you're having to like get to the bank and run down the river with these fish because they're taking you that far, you're just so strong and powerful because if you apply any kind of pressure, they're going to break you off. And so learning how to fight big fish is, is, is something I think a lot of people, they just have to learn by experience. So one of the things I always tell my clients is when you catch a big fish, you've got to apply equal pressure. No more, no less. Whatever pressure that fish is giving you, you give equal pressure back. It's a super important concept. I learned this years ago, saltwater fishing. You get into a tarpon and if you can just touch your line or touch your reel, you're going to bust that fish off. Well, the same thing's true with these king salmon. When they start running, you got to let them run. And then when they slow down, they start coming at you. You got to get them on the reel. And usually on a king, that's a fresh king, you're going to be able to get them to run you pretty far, close to your backing, if not in it. And then they'll make usually one big push back towards you. And that's when you are just, your reel is screaming because you got to get that fish back on the reel. But a lot of times what they'll do is they'll run you to your backing or and and then they just they'll go airborne. They'll jump one time and they'll land on the tippet and breaks you off. You know it's kind of kind of their deal. You know where our steelhead will will run you three or four times. I mean they're just they're they're crazy that way. The browns though they don't give you much of a run. They're fun to catch. They're big. They're they're super cool but they're not going to They're just going to hunker down. They're going to -- they're just going to try to really dig, dig hard. And they won't pull you to your backing like a steelhead will or a king. The coho, they're more like steelhead where they're going to give you two, three, four different runs before they're going to settle down for you. So it's just -- it's super exciting. It's hard to describe. I mean, I know for -- when you start talking tarpon fishing, those fish can be 150 pounds that's a different deal I mean I've caught a hundred hundred pound tarpon so I know but hey a 30 pound Chinook salmon and a little river is pretty darn cool too so yeah it's super exciting when you get it and you have to have a partner there too because you just there's no way you can land that fish and by yourself or or try to get it in a net by yourself you got have somebody who's available to net that fish for you. I mean I've gotten a few into my hand but most of the time when I try that I end up breaking them off so it's super cool.
Katie
It's kind of crazy that for the salmon, you know, for a fish that's about to die that they've got so much spunk left in them I guess to pull you out that far. I just feel like you'd expect a fish that's about to croak to not be very energetic.
George
Yeah well when they start to, when they're post spawn then they do slow down a lot more. You know when I'm talking about these fish that are giving us these big runs, those are the pre-spawn salmon. You know they're fresh, they still are really aggravated, they're agitated, they're fighting for position, you know and that type of thing. And those are the ones that'll give you a run. Now when you start getting into the post-spawn fish and they're starting to die, they're decaying, their zombies. Those fish, I don't even try to catch them. You'll get a little bit of a tug from them. They'll run you sometimes, but not like a fresh fish. That's what's super exciting. Even a post-spawn salmon, they're going to still give you a good run, but it's nothing like a fresh fish.
Katie
Well George, just to wrap up, is there anything that you think we should have covered that I didn't ask about? Like anything, you know, if someone came to fish for salmon in the Great Lakes that you think might surprise them if we didn't cover it here?
George
No, I think we really touched on everything. It's super fun to talk about these fish because they're majestic and they're so beautiful. And I would say the only thing is that you just got to make sure you have the right conditions. We didn't talk too much about this yet, but southern Wisconsin, we're in a three-year drought right now, and this last third year, this last summer was the toughest. We had two periods of about 14 weeks of no rain. And then when we got to September, typically when the kings would start running, there was no fish. And we had no water. We had no fish. It was hot. So basically, none of the conditions were for typical salmon run. So I would say if somebody wants to come out and fish for Great Lakes salmon, you just gotta make sure you check your conditions, water levels, water temperature, and make sure there's fish in the systems 'cause if they're not there, they're not there. It's just that simple. You're not gonna go out there and just find 'em 'cause you'll know when they're there 'cause they're there by the hundreds or even the thousands. So it's super exciting.
Katie
Great. Well, remind people where they can find you if they wanted to book a trip with you, or shoot you an email, or just find you on the web. Where can they do that?
George
Yeah, thanks, Katie. I appreciate it. So, yeah, so my business, my guide business is in the flow fly fishing. And I'm in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, which is a vacation town, between Milwaukee and Chicago, but about an hour from both. So either northeast or southeast. And I fish from the Driftless area in western Wisconsin for trout to my specialty summer trips are smallmouth bass, pike, and musky float trips. And then in the fall, that's when I get to the migratory fish. And then the spring, we'll start off with steelhead in March and in April. But on social media you can find me on Instagram and Facebook at In The Flow Fly Fishing or my personal accounts just look up George Kaider and yeah reach out to me and just have any questions or want to talk fly fishing or just say hi and are interested in booking a trip. You know we can get that done as well. So but yeah thanks so much for having me again Katie I really appreciate it. It's so fun to talk about fly fishing and especially someone like you who's super excited about it as well and share that same passion.
Katie
Well, I appreciate it. You've got a standing invitation to come on anytime you want and just talk about fishing. So just let me know if any other species pop into your mind that you just feel like rattling off about for a while. I am happy to hear all the different things you've got to chase over there and all the different ways that we can do that.
George
Yeah, sounds good, Kate. Thanks again. I really appreciate it.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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