Ep 120: Bluelining for Redeye Bass, with Matt Lewis
Dr. Matt Lewis is a redeye bass expert, both as an academic and as an angler. He describes redeye bass as what you would get if you crossed a brook trout and a smallmouth bass, with the aggression of a bass but the habitat of a trout. In this episode, we discuss the recent decision to break redeye bass into five distinct species, what differentiates the species, where they’re found, the appropriate gear for targeting them, the threats they’re facing, and much more.
Website: link
Instagram: @redeyebassflyfishing
Email: redeyebassflyfishing@gmail.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 120 with Matt Lewis on blue lining for redeye bass. Well I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and fishing. So just tell me how you got into fly fishing.
Matt
It's not a quick story.
Katie
That's fine.
Matt
So I grew up in South Alabama fishing and hunting a lot, but not fly fishing. Like most kids that primarily warm water fish, bluegill, catfish, that kind of stuff was mainly what we fished for. And it wasn't until I moved to Auburn, Alabama, which is about middle of the state on the the eastern side, there's a lot more of these clear water streams that are above the fall line that have a series of rapids and runs and just clear waters, unlike anything I'd grown up around. And so, of course, you look at the water and you're like, "Oh, this is trout water," but of course, there's no trout in Alabama. And so, my question was, "What lives here?" And come to find out, bass live there, here. And so it's water that you would see out west or anywhere else. If you just looked at a picture of the rivers and streams of fish, you would think that you weren't in Alabama, and you would think they're trout waters, but they're in fact bass waters. And so I just fell in love with everything about that, the wildness of those waters. Not many people were doing it, so it was kind of a niche thing. And they're native. It's a native fish that I'm fishing for. not really stocked or propagated in any sort of unnatural way. And so I'm fishing for something that's evolved for however many million years in these waters. So that spoke to me too. So I started fly fishing when I moved to Auburn. It was very frustrating at first because, I mean, like everyone that starts fly fishing, you want to just be able to cast immediately. And I would try to use my strength to push the line out there, get the fly out there where I wanted it. And the result was usually it would go not very far. And so it just took a lot of time and practice. It probably took me a year or more just casting into farm ponds or where I basically refused to use a spinning rod as a crutch. So I went all in on the fly, which is what I think people have to do, and just figured it out. And I haven't looked back, haven't touched a spinning rod since. And that was 12 years ago. So it's been a lot of fun.
Katie
And was it difficult transitioning from like farm pond to these bass? I know we're going to be focusing mostly on redeye bass. I don't know if you have other species as well. You said bass, but do you mean specifically red-eye or do you have small mouths, large mouths?
Matt
Yeah. So, I mean, I lived in North Alabama for a while and the main bass up there are small mouth bass. That's the mainstream fish. So I mean, some of that, the redeye bass, I didn't discover until I moved to Birmingham, right in the middle of the state. And I'd spent most of my time either fishing for smallmouth in North Alabama, or traveling to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, doing back country brook trout. And one of my friends told me, as much as you like smallmouth and brook trout, I can't believe you haven't fished for redeye bass, because it's like, if you were to somehow make a hybrid of the two, that's what you have. And I was like, what are you talking about? And so I tried it and the first one I caught, I mean, it was just an absolutely beautiful fish, much like brook trout, they don't get very big, they are very colorful, and it's just not what I'm used to seeing in the bass world. And so it just really resonated with me 'cause it kind of combined what I loved about back country brook trout fishing, but the, you know, kind of the stamina the fight and the aggression of smallmouth bass until you really kind of have the best of both worlds with redeye bass.
Katie
Yeah, it's kind of the impression I got. I was doing just a little reading about them online before we got on here, and it did strike me as kind of like a backcountry fish, more so than other bass species. Not that you can't find a smallmouth in kind of a remote area, but I think when people think of bass, particularly largemouth bass, they're thinking about lakes and boats and expensive gear and all this stuff, and even smallmouths. I think of bigger, more easily accessed rivers, not someone hiking five miles back and finding this remote, middle of nowhere area. But when I was looking at these redeye bass, that's kind of what it reminded me of, is almost like blue lining out here in the mountains, but for bass, which was, I think like you, I would be very attracted to that.
Matt
Yeah. I think for people that are into cutthroat trout and brook trout, those are two species of trout that would be a really easy transition to go after redeye bass. And they hold in similar areas of the water, of the river, streams. They like those current seams. They like to be around structure. And they're just super aggressive like those fish too. So there's not a lot of selectivity in picking out the right shade of yellow for your fly. I mean, it's like if you throw it on the water, they're gonna hit it. It doesn't matter if it's a bare hook, they'd probably hit it. There's something just kind of freeing about pursuing a fish like that. But I mean, I certainly like to match wits with fish sometimes, but there's other times where catching a fish is just kind of the icing on the cake of the overall experience of just being immersed into a landscape like that and interacting with it by catching fish that live there and are native there. And yeah, it's been a really unique and special experience. I've tried my best to raise awareness for that. because there's just so much we don't know about those fish still. So it's been a lot of fun.
Katie
When you say raise awareness, are they like threatened in any way? I know they have a fairly small native range. Is that under threat by anything or are they doing fairly well?
Matt
It's certainly river specific. So some river systems, redeye bass are doing relatively well. There's not a lot of development in those like tributary streams or along the riparian areas of those tributary streams where they live because it's national forest land or something like that. And so their habitat is still mostly intact, but there are other areas in Alabama where there's been a lot of disturbance to the habitat, whether it was historical coal mining or agricultural pollution, nutrient pollution, things like that chicken waste runoff. I mean, you name it with that erosion due to just clear cutting everything to make way for farmland and then all that sediment just flows into the stream, buries the shoals that those fish require. So there's a lot of issues around habitat, just like a lot of things. And there's some instances where some non-native bass have been stocked on top of native redeye bass. And so you have kind of the confounding effects of a non-native introduction on top of some of the habitat issues. And there's a couple river systems, so like the Chattahoochee River, that's the border between Georgia and Alabama. The upper Chattahoochee is a native redeye bass area, and there's been almost any kind of bass you can think of stocked into the Chattahoochee River system. And so they have hybridized with the native redeye bass to a point where there's very few pure redeye bass left. And then you also have the habitat issues that is kind of compounding on top of the other issues. And so there's certain areas where, yes, this situation is very dire. And so I've felt this urge to champion that because I don't want to hate on trout because there's a lot of trout I like, but there's so much done for trout. They have so many friends across the US. And in most cases, it's where those trout aren't native. So specifically, rainbow and brown trout, all the stuff that goes on around them. And there's very few places, well, no places in the US where brown trout are native, but with rainbows on Pacific coasts. And so I wanna see that same kind of fervor and passion for warm water species, because I feel like everyone just assumes like, "Oh, they're doing find. There's bass everywhere. And we now know there's actually a lot of different species of bass, and some of them have limited native ranges. And that in and of itself is already a tough thing to navigate because once they're gone from that one little area, they're gone forever. And so really just trying to raise awareness for the fact that there's a lot of diversity within the black bass genus, and there's a lot of issues around their habitat and water systems that they depend on to live, whether it's introduction of non-native species or habitat destruction or in some cases both.
Katie
Is hybridization the main threat from other black bass species or is it also out-competing them just as a smaller bass? I'm picturing them maybe not doing as well, but I don't know if maybe they also occupy a slightly different niche eating different things or whatever. Is hybridization the main problem or is it also just straight-up competition?
Matt
We don't really know for sure. So there's areas where redeye bass are native, and they've had some non-native bass introduced to those water systems. And in those cases, hybridization has been shown to be the primary aggressor, so to speak, in causing those population declines. The interesting thing, and a lot of my research centered around this, in the Mobile Basin, So here in Alabama, you have four different species of redeye bass that are all native, each to a certain river system. And then you have a couple species of, more habitat journalist type bass, which are called Alabama bass. And they look similar to spotted bass, but they're a unique species as well. And they occupy the same river systems, but historically, at least to the best of our knowledge, there's not a lot of surveys to go back and look at, which is part of the problem, there seems to be some sort of habitat partitioning and prey partitioning and things like that, so they don't compete with one another. And so red eye bass are typically in the upper reaches of the tributary stream, so they're in those smaller waters high up. And the Alabama bass are typically in the middle to larger river systems, and because some of those have been dammed to create reservoirs in those reservoir systems as well. And what I hypothesize is happening in some cases is that as the habitat is degraded in some of those tributary streams where redeye bass kind of has a stronghold, one side of it doesn't favor their existence because they are a habitat specialist. They can't deal with a lot of disturbance and degradation until you already have one strike against their persistence. And then as the habitat degrades, you allow those generalist species like Alabama bass to move further up into those river systems than maybe they normally would. And so I think in those cases, hybridization is secondary to habitat degradation, but we don't have the data that really show that yet. We're what factors may be driving or facilitating hybridization between these two native species, but we hypothesize that it's habitat disturbance driven.
Katie
And you mentioned there are multiple species. Are those true species and red eye is kind of more of a general category or are they like subspecies of the redeye bass species?
Matt
No, it's really confusing. And I can tell you just from someone that's been working in that realm, trying to publish papers, no one can agree on what to call them. And so, until recently. So when I first started working on them, there was a paper in 2013 out of Auburn University where I am, where they formally split with species descriptions what was... What started out as just redeye bass, and there's just redeye bass in this stream, and this stream, and this stream. They actually did a large study looking at some morphological characteristics of fin coloration, blotch patterns, and scale counts, and all those different things, as well as some small-scale genetic work. And they actually formally split what was one species into five different species in that paper, each endemic to a certain river system. And there was a lot of doubt in the fisheries world because, I mean, This is a time when there's just this explosion of species descriptions because, in part, because of the advent and accessibility of genetic techniques that allow us to look deeper than we've ever looked before. And so we can see at really fine-scale levels, you know, how these different species or populations are related or not related. And there was a lot of support that these were, in fact, different species. However, because they only use a very small genetic component in that description, it's mostly morphological, and there's a lot of overlap in those morphological characteristics. So for instance, if you say redeye bass from the Coosa River System have eight vertical blotches along their flank, but redeye bass from the Tallapoosa River System have 8 to 10, you know, and there's some overlap. And so it's like, is that really diagnostic? And so a few years went by and there were a couple other studies that looked at a similar scale, but also a lot deeper with genetic techniques and genomic techniques. And most recently, there was a paper out of Yale University that came out in 2022. And this was with Tom Nears group there, they do a lot of really cool phylogenomic type relationships and things that people like me like to nerd out on. But they confirmed what we suspected, that in fact, there's enough difference genetically coupled with those morphological differences within red eyed bass to merit species status. And so what I tell people is if you believe that a large mouth is different than the smallmouth, then you have to also accept that these redeye bass are different species because it's that level of difference with their genetics coupled with their morphology. So American Fisheries Society just recently accepted those species descriptions finally, formally, so now it's kind of like official. So I hope we put that to bed at this point. But it's different than cutthroat trout, which are usually classified as different subspecies. These are in fact different species, so that's something I try to make clear, too.
Katie
And what are the species called?
Matt
So they're named after the river systems that they belong to. So in Alabama, you have the Coosa River, they're called the Coosa Bass, and you have the Tallapoosa River, Tallapoosa Bass, the Warrior River, Warrior Bass, Cahaba River, Cahaba Bass, and the Chattahoochee that I was telling you about in Georgia, North Georgia, they're called Chattahoochee bass. And then the Altamaha River in Georgia is, they're called Altamaha bass. And then the only one that's not named after the river system where they belong is the Bartram's bass, which are endemic to the Savannah River system on the border of South Carolina and Georgia. And in many of these river systems, I mean these fish again are not in the main river channel typically they're kind of restricted to those upper tributaries. In some cases you will see like the Talathusa, certain stretches you can catch a lot of redeye bass there, but typically these fish are kind of in the upper tributary systems, the smaller streams is where they really, you know.
Katie
Now is redeye bass as a group, is that more of a colloquial thing just because at one point they were thought to be the same or are these species actually more related to each other than they are to say something like a large mouth or a small mouth. You gave the example of, you know, if you think a small mouth is different than a large mouth, then these are just as different. But are they more similar to each other than they are to say a spotted bass or a large mouth or a small mouth? Or are they so distinct that they're just kind of like, they shouldn't even be called a grouped thing because they're so different?
Matt
No, it's a little bit of both. I think that it's more colloquial because they were all formally considered redeye bass. And so then for the longest time we had this, what we refer to as redeye bass was kind of this umbrella term for what we call the redeye bass clade or the redeye basses collectively, you know. And because it was also hard, because the names weren't accepted officially, so it was kind of, it was hard to know like what do we call these things. And so typically we just refer to them as redeye bass from this river system or whatever. But there's a little bit of both. There's some morphological distinctions that I can look at a redeye bass and tell you what river system it's from, but I've looked at thousands of redeye bass from multiple river systems, so I'm an oddball there. But there are certain attributes that all the redeye basses have in common. So they have this little eye crescent on the back half of their upper eye, and it's usually like a teal blue or blue color. It's almost like a on the upper and lower tail fin margins. And then aside from that, I mean, there's some coloration differences in the fins between different species, some blotch pattern differences and things like that. But there's some things that are common, but genetically, some of them are more closely related to other bass than they are each other. And that could be an artifact of geological divergence. So when these fish actually... Some of the drain is where they are native, split off and were formed at different times. And so some of those species evolved before others, and so they've had more time to differentiate. So there's a genetic component to that. And also, because there is so much hybridization, sometimes it's hard to suss out when you're looking at relatedness, are you really working with pure individuals, or are you looking and individuals that have some degree of hybridization. So it looks like they're related, but they're not really. And I think that's something we'll fine tune as we go deeper and deeper. But we usually use what's referred to as the GDI or the genealogical divergence index. It's just a number that we use that we can quantify how closely related species are, or how different they are. And there's certain thresholds where like above this, that species status difference, and they all meet that criteria. So to answer your question, I guess there's a little bit of both.
Katie
And you may have inadvertently answered my last question kind of on the differences in the species by saying that you're an oddball for being able to tell the difference. Like if an angler goes out and fishes these different river systems, would the average person be able to tell the difference between one or the other. I think about cutthroat out here and I usually can tell you what kind of cutthroat I'm catching because I looked up ahead of time what kind of cutthroat are here, not because I'm actually looking at it and being like, "Well, the spots are in this particular arrangement, so therefore it's a whatever." I just have to kind of know that. Can people tell these apart visually for the most part if they're not experts like you?
Matt
No. I think some people struggle. I mean, people are getting better at it as there's more information that's out there on how to tell the difference between these species and certain characteristics that are really diagnostic that people can kind of key in on. But when you have issues like hybridization, especially the levels of hybridization that we're seeing, that really confounds identification because the hybrids will have intermediate characteristics sometimes of both parental species. And so it's like, "Wow, this kind of looks like a redeye, but it also kind of looks like an Alabama bass." And so it can get really confusing. And then you can also have a hybrid that has back crossed with one of the parent species. And so it may look totally like one of the parent species, but there's in fact 25% of the other species as well. And so we're still trying to really understand what that means, because typically with natural... With species that have co-evolved in the same systems, or they're both native, you don't see a lot of hybridization. There's certain species, species isolating mechanisms, whether it's reproduction periods that differ or habitat differences, things like that. So there's not a lot of overlap to avoid those kind of things. But hybridization is also one way in which gene flow occurs, and maybe there's a certain allele that's beneficial that those fish might be able to accumulate. I mean you think about like climate change, you know Alabama bass are more tolerant of general conditions, so they're more tolerant to warmer water, whereas red eye are really a cooler water fish. And so you know there's all these ideas that I have, like maybe that's part of it too, you know. But it's really hard to suss that out with the data that we have now. But those are things that I hope to kind of continue to look at to see what role that plays but I'm trying to I feel like I didn't answer your question again I went off on another tangent.
Katie
Oh that's fine I think you did. I mean it sounds like visually most people are not gonna go out and see like very obvious differences between them like there are some subtle differences but for the average person it's more it's more on the genetic side than it is on very distinguishing characteristics.
Matt
Yeah and I do tell people to you know if you are fishing in the Cahaba River system. Nine times out of 10, you're catching a Cahaba, well, probably more than that, you're catching a Cahaba bass. Because as far as we know, these fish haven't really been moved around. Like, Kusa red eye bass have not been put in the Tallapoosa River system or whatever. So they're separated by these drainages without any connectivity, and that's part of how they've evolved into these different species. And so there's no connectivity now where they can... where you can catch a Coosa bass in Tallahassee territory. Even though the Coosa River does merge with the Tallahassee River in Montgomery, which is south of here, to form the Alabama River, but those fish... That's like coastal plain, deep, slow, turbid water. This is not the kind of habitat they would go into. So that habitat change keeps them up into the tributaries. But the one thing I did wanna mention is there are people that still catch smallmouth and refer to them as red eyed bass because the small mouth will have a red eye. So there's no doubt that the name red eyed bass has been really confusing because all bass can have red eyes. It's more of a temperature and stress artifact. So people will catch a small, small mouth and it has red eyes, and they're like, "Oh, that's one of those red eyed bass," even though it's nowhere around where a red eyed bass would be. And then there's other cases where people catch a red eye, but it doesn't have a red eye, and so they're like, "Well, I don't think it's a red eye, but everything else about it looks like a red eye." And it does have a red eye, it's just they can't see it sometimes because it's dark, a dark red eye. Or you have people that... This is the thing I hate the most, and I try to be nice about it, but there's people constantly that confuse what we call rock bass, so it's a tan fish, And it's commonly called a red eye. So when I tell people that I like to fly fish for red eye bass, they're always like, "Oh, yeah." And there's people like in Arkansas or Virginia or wherever where red eye bass do not exist. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, I like catching those. We call them rock bass or goggle eye or something." I'm like, "No, no, no, it's a totally different thing. Those are panfish, these are bass." And they don't... The naming has created a lot of confusion. And so because of people confusing a panfish with a bass species and other bass species with that bass species, that's why I say I don't have a lot of confidence I can tell within the redeye bass species which is different from the other, unless they've been doing it for a while.
Katie
Yeah, I've actually wondered that. I grew up catching those rock bass, and I wasn't sure if they were... I don't really know what makes a true bass. I guess most people, when they're talking about bass, are talking about black bass of some variety. I don't know if a rock bass falls into that, but yeah, I always thought of them almost looking more like crappies than anything from the black basses. Another thing that you mentioned that I have, I guess, wondered about but never knew the answer to was why some bass have red eyes and some don't, because I grew up catching smallmouths too, and some of them would have kind of just a big black, almost looks like a marble eye, and then others would have that really vivid red eye. What did you say causes the difference between those?
Matt
So two factors, stress and temperature, and sometimes the two are related. But those... We've pulled fish out of the water that... In the water had a very vibrant red eye, and then within seconds of taking them out of the water, it's hard to tell that it was a red eye. It's still there, it just got really dark. And so if you get it in a certain sunlight, you can see that shade of red still there, you just have to know that you're looking for it, I guess. because most people wouldn't go to the extreme. They're like, "Oh, wow. This doesn't have red eyes." You can see that with all types of panfish as well as bass. So you'll see rock bass, certain species of long-eared sunfish, red-breasted sunfish. A lot of different sunfish will also change their eye color based on temperature and stress.
Katie
Does stress lead to a red eye or to a not red eye?
Matt
I don't know. I think it leads to not red-eye, but I don't know that we've really quantified that. That's just like, I usually see it red in the water, and when I take them out it's not red anymore, so I'm assuming that because I'm handling them and, you know, whatever, that they're probably more stressed than when they were in the water.
Katie
Sure.
Matt
So that's my, you know, that's my take on it, but I don't know for sure.
Katie
Well, moving on a little bit to the fishing for them, I want to start with, you know, they're found because like we talked about before I feel like this blue lining for small bass is not a very common thing. How are you finding where these fish are? It sounds like they're kind of limited in their range, each species, because it's kind of limited to a specific river system but do they spread out amongst the tributaries up at the top and if they do how do you go about locating where they're hanging out?
Matt
So that's a good question because in some of the river systems, some of those tributaries might have at one point in history had redeye bass, but some are now void. And we don't really know because again, we don't have that baseline data. There are some historical accounts where people have looked in certain river systems and collected. They have data on collecting redeye bass from there. And then when we go back now or five years ago even, we don't collect any. And those are also streams that have a high level of disturbance. And so that's kind of another reason we think disturbance is driving the decline in population in some of these systems. But then, typically in all these water systems, I tell people, you have to look for flow. I mean, flow is paramount. So like if it's frog water, lily pads, things like that, like that's large mouth water, that's not where you're going to find redeye bass. They really are in those very rocky, cobblestone, broken bedrock type streams. Most of them are 12, 14 feet wide maybe. So really small, usually good elevation. So you've got those like waterfall plunge pools, run ripple pool, typical stream habitat. So you've got good oxygenation, low turbidity. So the water needs to be clear. If it does rain, it needs to clear quickly. If it stays turbid for a while, that's not going to be a typically a good red-eye stream. And so that's the main things I look for. So there has to be rock, and that can be, you know, like I said, cobblestone bottom, also like just big long shoal type complexes where you have a lot of bedrock ledges and crevices and, you know, things like that where the fish can hide. Because they're like all bass, they're ambush predators. So they orient the structure in order to ambush their prey, which like all bass, they're opportunistic. So crayfish, a lot of top water insects, both terrestrial and aquatic, are high on their preference list. Small bait fish, things like that. So they're not picky eaters, but they will orient near structure and flow. Those are the two things I look for.
Katie
You weren't kidding when you described them as a hybrid between a smallmouth and a brook trout, because you're like, "They eat crayfish, they also eat insects and things." Not that a smallmouth couldn't eat an insect, but their diet is primarily things that have a little bit more meat on them, whereas a brook trout is going to be almost entirely little buggy, leggy things. What you're describing does really sound halfway between them. What kinds of flies are you throwing for them?
Matt
So I get made fun of a lot because almost to a fault, I refuse to throw anything but like topwater poppers. So like bass popper because I just I'm like a topwater junkie. I like to see the explosion on top. And so if I have my way, I'm always starting with topwater. And I like to use any kind of cork or foam, you know, a tractor type like it could be a popper, it can be a anything on top. They'll eat trout flies, caddisflies, whatever. They're not picky. But I like poppers because I can see the popper really well. So usually like chartreuse or white or this kind of like damsel blue. I can see the popper really well in the water so I can follow it if I'm drifting it. Because I don't, oddly enough, even though I like fishing poppers, I don't pop them a whole lot. It's almost like a dead drift is what I typically do, but I just like the poppers because of their profile and their visibility. And the fish, because they're so aggressive, I mean, you will know within the first second of your fly hitting the water if there's a redeye bass there or not, because they don't think about it, they don't wait and look at it. I mean, it's just like immediate. And it scares you sometimes because you throw it and something just explodes in your fly. And so that's what I like to do. I have some friends that fish exclusively crayfish patterns or small streamers, mini or micro game changer type thing. I really and truly don't think that it matters. Whatever you're confident with, which is I think just a really good starter fish for a lot of people that are learning to fly fish because there's not a lot to figure out. You can have a handful of poppers, some eight pound monos, tip it, and just go. You don't need all the other stuff. It's kind of freeing in a way too. And then I like to... My favorite rod is like a seven, six, three weight. I like glass rods, so I lean more toward that way, but I do have some graphite rods as well. And that's for the small streams. If I do fish some of the larger river systems, like the Tallahassee River where they're in the main river system and some of those shoal complexes where I could also catch a five or six pound Alabama bass. I'll use a five weight. I typically don't use a six, but I'll use a five weight just to make it a little bit more fun if I do catch a red-eye versus an Alabama bass. But yeah, there's not a lot of consideration into gear, things like that, and I wet wade, so I don't, I'm not gonna worry about waders. Summers in Alabama are very hot and humid, of being, you know, standing in 65 degree water full of mice. Um, so it's actually a really fun aspect to that type of fishing with, with wading in those streams. So, yeah, that's what I typically do.
Katie
Are you often seeing them before you catch them? Or like, is it sight fishing at all? Are they, are they rising and stuff in between casts or is it more of a, you go and you take a cast and then, and then one reveals itself to you when it takes your fly?
Matt
It depends on the day and the water. I mean, there's some waters that, you know, just in my approach of getting to the water, I have the added benefit of elevation, being able to look down to the water, and so I can see fish cruising sometimes, and so I know where they are, so when I get down there, I can kind of do a stealthy approach and make a cast, and you know, if everything goes right, they're going to eat it. I've fished for them so much, I mean, I almost exclusively fish for these fish, and so I've logged so many hours over the last decade almost of just fishing for them and all the different species and so I kind of know where they're gonna be and so my casts are very you know high probability type areas and so sometimes it's just I cast into a likely area and I catch a fish but they're they're finicky enough to where you know the water they live in is really clear and so They're very cognizant of overhead predators. There's a lot of kingfishers. There's a lot of ospreys, eagles, all kinds of stuff that eat them. Otters in some cases. And so they're aggressive, but they're not stupid. And so you have to have a stealthy approach in order to catch these fish. Like you can't just go stand over the hole and cast the popper and get the same reaction strike. you have to cast from 30 feet back into that pool where you're down in elevation so you're casting up to that plunge pool. Very similar to brook trout fishing. And so sometimes like I said just depends on how I approach the stream. If I have that benefit of an elevated lookout where I can see where I'm going to be going before I get there, I'll try to pick out fish and target fish. And, but just remember that the water is so clear, they can see you really well. And they're tuned into that kind of movement and things that don't look normal. And so I tell people, um, you know, that's not the type of fishing where you want to wear your, like, you know, bright yellow, bright blue fishing shirts. Like I like to use earth tone colors. So like khakis, olive greens, gray, you know, to kind of blend in with the rocks and the trees to create as little obvious disturbance as possible.
Katie
Got you. I know you mentioned that they're not in every tributary that they could be in because of disturbances and things, but where they are, are there a lot of them or is it like, I blew up this hole and now I've got to walk a quarter mile till I find another fish. Is it like every little hole like brook trout?
Matt
Yes. They're pretty prevalent where they do exist. So you'll catch one, you may catch one in a pool, you may catch one in a run. It's like, just like brook trout fishing, when I'm fishing for these, I always like to go upstream so that I'm kind of approaching from behind the fish because they're usually facing in the current, much like trout do. And I hit the obvious places first. So I'll hit the tail out of the pool before I just cast my line over the entire pool to get to the head of the pool. And sometimes you'll catch one in the tail of the pool, then you'll catch one in the head of the pool. pools you'll come to and you don't catch anything and you're like, "Well, is there a fish here or did I screw it up?" And usually I screw it up because as I walk through it I see a fish dart out and run for cover. So that you do, when you get into them, you typically, I mean it's going to be a good day. There's very few times where it's like, "I'm just going to catch one or two." It's something you'll catch a lot of.
Katie
And how big are these river systems that they're in? Are we talking like a stem and a handful of tributaries or are we talking like you still haven't run out of places to go explore and check out where these exist?
Matt
It depends on the river system. So some of the river systems just themselves are larger than the others. So like the Coosa River system is like probably two times or more bigger than the Cahaba River system. So there's just so much more area. There's so many more tributaries and most of it is above the fall line. there's all those tributaries have redeye bass in them. In the Cahaba, you have some streams that, again, for whatever reason, historically had redeye bass, but don't anymore. But typically, I mean, just based on the sampling we did for my project, so the Tallapoosa River, we sampled, I want to think, 50 or 55 tributaries. So this is outside of the main river. and probably two thirds of those had red eye bass in them. Same thing for the Coosa River system, except there's a lot more. And I mean, so Alabama, I think it's worth mentioning is just, it is a water and river and streams state. If you look at a map of Alabama with all the river systems, I mean, there's, I can't remember, I think the figure's like 178,000 miles of streams or something like that. it's one of the most just robust river and stream states in the country, and coupled with an unmatched aquatic biodiversity. So it's not just the fish, the crayfish, the aquatic insects, the mussel species, the turtles, I mean, it's just off the charts. And so it's more diverse than Brazilian rainforest in some instances. So it's a really cool place. And so there's certainly streams that I have not ever set foot in that I know have redeye bass because I have my favorites that I like to go to, and two small kids and a wife and a job, and it's just... It's hard to get away all the time. And so I'm not always in for the challenge of exploring a new stream. I wanna go for the sure thing, the stream that I know like the back of my hand, because I get more out of that sometimes. But then other times I'm in an exploration mode and I'm like, "All right, well, let's go see if this has it may turn into my favorite stream. There's so much to keep you busy and we'll never do all of it. I think that's another really unique aspect of this type of fishing.
Katie
Is it popular? Are you seeing a lot of people out there when you're out fishing for them, or is it still a relatively unknown fishery?
Matt
It's certainly gotten more popular over the last five years. I'm sure my book had something to do with that. A lot of the social media presence we've done around this has increased that podcast. I mean, there's always a double-edged sword when you try to raise awareness for a certain species that many people don't know exist versus just completely overloading a spot or causing fish to be over-pressured. And I think that there's, I've thought about this a lot, and I've talked to a lot of people about this because I constantly reevaluate, like, what am I doing? Am I... I have to ask myself, am I chasing notoriety because I'm the guy that's putting redeye bass on the map, or am I really doing this for the fish? And so far, I can always say I'm still doing it for the fish because I'm more interested in them getting the attention that they deserve so that hopefully they'll get the funding that they deserve to be able to learn more about them. It's just the way our system works. State budgets and federal budgets are shoestring type budgets, and so most of the money goes to what most of the people are using. And this is just something that's totally falling under the radar, and we do know there's some serious conservation concerns. So I'd rather increase the pressure a little bit and get more people involved in fly fishing or not just fly fishing, but warm water fly fishing. I think there's a sect of people that really... I'd rather fish warm water than cold water. That's personally what I want to do. You look at what the companies market towards, it's mostly cold water stuff. It's like, "Well, there's people out here that... We don't fish for bass when the trout fishing gets... When those trout streams are too warm to fish. We prefer the warm water and I hardly ever fish for trout. And so I think it's bringing a lot of attention. It's almost like a little mascot for warm water fly fishing and how unique it can be. And so I think it's been good and very similar to brook trout, like I keep going back to, these places aren't easy to get to. And not many people are going to go through that kind of effort to get to a fish that averages around eight or nine inches. What's the point? If you're wanting to fish for food, you're gonna go catch big catfish or some of those bigger bass. And so I think some of those factors help protect the resource, built in protection. And so as long as I feel like we're growing things in a positive way, we're really coupling the excitement and the coolness factor of fishing for these fish with, "Hey, these are really special and they have some serious conservation concerns." So we're coupling that education and awareness with the experience of going after them with the fly rod. And I think it's been very positive. So most of the people that have been turned on to it, and there certainly has been a lot of growth over the last five years, are anglers that are mindful of the resource and appreciate the resource. And you just see that in fly fishing a lot anyway. I think we're just kind of geared, fly fishers are just kind of geared to be more plugged into the ecosystems that they fish in because you have to, to catch fish with a fly rod typically.
Katie
Yeah, I agree. I think what you're describing attracts the right kind of person generally. And I guess I'm not here to be the morality police, but somebody who's willing to work that hard to go after small fish is likely out there for a lot more than just catching as many fish as they can and throwing them in a bucket. They're out there for the experience. And so I think this fish seems to naturally lend itself toward attracting people who would want to help it and protect it and aren't out there to just abuse the resource for the sake of it. It almost sounds like a gateway drug from, like I started with trout and I'm trying to dabble a little bit in warm water or whatever. I like fishing for anything in any type of water, but I could see that being a good gateway drug for trout snobs who want to maybe give warm water fishing a tribe but don't want to just go down to the pond in the mud and still want to have that feeling of being in the mountains a little bit and getting out into the remote areas.
Matt
Yeah I mean it really is kind of like a I mean it's just I still I don't take people very often you know personally I don't guide or anything like that but occasionally I'll take you know met friends through through fly-fishing that you know we met out of a mutual appreciation for native fish in native places and you just start talking, you realize, "Hey, we're really kind of similar. I feel like I can take you into the high church of redeye bass fishing now." So I'm taking some people and just to experience what I experience all the time through their eyes is really rewarding because for me, I'm still like a kid every time I catch one. I'm still, "I can't believe I'm doing this. I'm in the middle of the woods and no one's there to hear me or see me." I've caught some what would be considered really nice redeye bass in some of those places. I'm sure I probably screamed and was just like, "Woo!" No one heard that. No one saw that. I think I've enjoyed having more people to share that with because obviously we like to share the things we care about. That's kind of what I've been going by is people can only love what they understand and they won't understand it if you don't tell them about it. It's just a very simple way that I've tried to go about raising awareness for these fish, but also using them as a driver for watershed level conservation. The headstreams, headwaters are really important because everything flows downstream. They're kind of like a canary in a coal mine. So if we're doing things that are affecting these fish, that's something we should probably worry about because that's our drinking water. We drink water out of these streams. That's where it comes from. And I think people are just so far removed from that that sometimes it doesn't register. So it's been a great species to kind of champion a lot of different things. Fly fishing, warm water fly fishing. I mean, Alabama is not a state you think of when you think of fly fishing. And this fish and the pursuit of this fish has really, and the community around like-minded people has really grown the fly fishing community in Alabama. And so now you have a lot more guides that have drift boats that are fishing these rocky, fast water streams because drift boats work really well for that. And we're just catching bass instead of trout. And it's been really cool to see how fly fishing really has just kind of exploded here. And watch.
Katie
Well, just to wrap up, where can people find any of your work? I know you mentioned a book and you've got social media and website and all that. So where can people find you?
Matt
So redeyebassflyfishing.com is my website, so people can contact me through there. It also has links to social media stuff, Instagram, things like that. You can also learn more about redeye bass on the website. I kind of have it broken down into different aspects you can learn about and also see some of the stuff that we've done in the conservation space and kind of raising awareness for those species. And so that's probably the best way is through the website.
Katie
Okay, perfect. Well, Matt, you got me all excited about maybe coming to Alabama sometime and trying to fish for these because, like I said, it just sounds like the trout fishermen's bass, I guess.
Matt
Yeah, it is.
Katie
I like bass and I like trout, but it sounds like the perfect combination of both. So, yeah, you got me really excited about them.
Matt
Yeah, you'll have to come check them out.
Katie
Awesome. Well, I will let you get on with your night, but I appreciate you taking the time for this and I appreciate the work you're doing for native fish.
Matt
Thanks for having me on.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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