Ep 121: Running, Fishing, and Drinking Beer, with Andrew Todd
Andrew Todd was the very first guest I had on the show, back on episode 1. He is the creator of the Rocky Mountain Flyathlon, one of my favorite events every year, and its overarching nonprofit, Running Rivers. Andrew is a running, fishing, and beer-drinking enthusiast, and he is using these interests to raise money for native fish conservation. In this episode, we talk about ongoing conservation efforts being funded by the organization, as well as many of the “side projects” created by Running Rivers including the Fastest Known Fish, the Troutman series of runs, Fishslapping, and the upcoming Nascarp race.
Running Rivers: https://runningrivers.org
Instagram: @flyathlon
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 121 with Andrew Todd on running, fishing, and drinking beer. well normally I crack these on on the show but I see you can help yourself I'll crack mine and you can crack yours when you open your next one okay cheers cheers thanks for driving over today to see ya well I think you were the very first guest on the podcast back
Andrew
I believe so
Katie
like a couple years ago
Andrew
right three years almost
Katie
I should know when I started it I want to say 2019 but I could be way off so I'm not sure but yeah you were on episode one and now I think we're on about 120 so awesome it's come a long way what if what have you been up to I think I've heard you a couple other podcasts. Have you done any other shows?
Andrew
Yeah, I was on the, what is it called? You were on it recently. Wet Fly Swing. That's hard for me to say and remember, but I'm almost 50. So give me some grace there. But yeah, I've been on that one. There was an article in Outside Online, I think about weird, weird ways that people pair running with things. And so that was kind of fun. But, but this last year kind of just, you know, just doing events and staying, staying out of the media. That's what my, my dad's grandfather always told him to just keep his damn mouth shut. So, well, here I am. So let's try not to embarrass myself. I'm sure you'll be fine.
Katie
Well, just for anyone who hasn't heard the first episode, I feel like at this point, I've talked about the flyathlon a lot on the show, but give the 30-second elevator pitch of what the flyathlon is and maybe how it came to be. How did you pair these different parts of your life to form this event?
Andrew
Yeah. I mean, it started with just three different things that I enjoyed doing out in the woods in drinking beer, trail running, and fly fishing. And I started putting them together back when I worked for the U.S. Geological Survey. I would find myself in cool places and would just pair these things and then was out on a run with a friend who said he also paired those things. And we decided that inspired me to start putting on races. And the first one, I think, was in 2013, and it was unofficial up in Grand County. And after that, I realized that was like 10 friends and family and then realized we could probably do something with this and do something for good with this. And so that's when we started raising money with the first one, which was not in Grand County. It was in Swatch County. So that's the Middle Creek race. And we'll be doing that for the 10th time this coming summer. So it's the 10th annual already, which is wild to think about. But yeah, it was really just born out of things I like to do. But over time, it's really evolved into so much more than that. That with this fundraising from this last summer, which was over $140,000 between the four races that we put on, as well as the Troutman series, we raised some money through that as well. but over 140 grand that we're putting towards projects and over 650 grand now in the life of, of, of the flyathlon. So we're, we're starting to have a real impact for these native fish. And that's what it's kind of morphed into, to the point where we're now trying to figure out how to meet the demand with the, you know, the, the limited time that I have to devote to it as a, as an all-volunteer board, we've got to figure out how to make that happen. And we've actually, this year, I'm no longer the president of Running Rivers, which is the nonprofit we set up to house the flyathlon. I'm now the part-time executive director. So I'm taking every Friday, compressing my regular job schedule to the four days, and then working on this exclusively on Fridays. And that's to meet a demand for events in new places, as well as some of the conservation work itself and trying to take some of that on as an organization instead of just raising all this money to give it away. We want to do some of it ourselves into the future. And so we're going to do a pilot, you know, part-time executive director thing, see how that goes. And then in this year, try to identify resources to make that full-time for someone, whether that's me or someone else, we'll see. But that's the goal is to really meet the demand. And by demand, we're seeing it. We're seeing interest around the U.S. I've had people reach out from Vermont, from California, from the Pacific Northwest, from Wyoming. So all over, people are reaching out and saying, can you bring this here? And the answer is not really unless I figure out how we can increase bandwidth. And part of that will rely on those people taking a leading role in developing them in those places. But they still need guidance on what a flyathlon is. So, yeah, it's really grown outside of what I anticipated it would be.
Katie
And how realistic do you think it is that more and more of these are going to start popping up, like as you find people who do know what they're doing and can start one? Like, is there any sort of timeline vision of when these things might start to take place?
Andrew
Well, so it depends. So we've been working on developing sort of a partnership agreement that we would present to those folks to just lay out, like, we're not trying to make a billion dollars off these things, but we want to preserve what is a flyathlon and why are people... I don't want people just using that name to throw parties in the woods that aren't for conservation or put people in a risky position. So we've worked towards establishing a structure that we can share that gives them all the things that we've learned because we've fucked up a lot of things over the years. And so if we can share that with folks to maximize the potential of them being successful and it turning into something for the benefit of their own backyard and the species in their own backyard, that benefits all of us. And so I think that's the real trick is figuring out how to roll all that out, package all that up, such that when someone does reach out, we still want to vet them. And we've had in the past, we've encouraged people to come to one of our races in Colorado to see what it's really about before deciding whether they've got their own bandwidth to set it up and carry it through. But yeah, I think that's a big part of it is educating people on what's involved. I think it could be successful anywhere. And it's popped up. That's the other piece. We need to get in control of it while there's interest. Otherwise, if we aren't there to help them meet their interest and guide where it goes, they'll take the idea and run with it in a new direction. And we've had events pop up this past year in Australia. There was an event in Flyathlon called the High Country Flyathlon that was put on in, I think it was in November. And then there was one earlier in the spring in Africa, in Lesotho, which I had to look up where Lesotho, it's spelled Lesotho. Lesotho's an inholding in South Africa, and these guys read about it or heard about it somewhere and decided to do it for the benefit of rebuilding a bridge between a tribal village and the elementary school. And so I didn't want to tell them no because that's such an awesome. Screw the kids. Yeah, exactly. I'm not a monster. But at the same time, I don't want to lose control of what it is. Right. And I think there's strength in numbers. If we've got a consistent product that's doing the same things in different places, we can then go out and reach out to companies who are going to want to get on board because it's got a broader impact both in terms of numbers and geography. So that's the desire around getting a consistent platform out there. So yeah, I think we can grow and grow rapidly, but want to do it in control.
Katie
I think it's got to also be hard because every state, I'm sure every state government or state, parks and wildlife, whatever the CPW equivalent is, is going to be different and work with people differently. Sure. You know, if they're working for native species in their state that are managed a different way, you can give them the resources to plan the party part. That's not too hard to recreate anywhere. But getting the money where it needs to go and making sure it's used properly and all the legalities of being on public ground, like that stuff is all going to be different based on where you are and what you're trying to do.
Andrew
For sure. And the good thing we have going for us is that on the permitting side of things, we can use the contacts and the good cred we've developed in the 10 years we've been holding SWATCH or the eight years we've been holding the Lake Fork Race. Lake Fork Race is BLM and National Park Service. So Watch is the Forest Service. And so if those entities are involved in permitting elsewhere, we can say, hey, here's a contact you can reach out to so you know we're not like trashing the forest and walking away. We're in it. The other good thing that has a way of convincing permitting entities that this is an okay idea is that we are then turning around and reinvesting in the resource, whether that's through trail projects or primarily fisheries projects that we're giving money back to those same agencies to do the work or to leverage to do the work that they want to do for native fish. So money has a way of, when you're reinvesting, convincing people that this is an okay thing.
Katie
Right. What projects are currently ongoing? I don't know much outside of Colorado. I've never been to those races or anything. But Colorado or any other states, what are the current projects that are being funded?
Andrew
Sure. So this last year, we had a number of projects that were on tap for Rio Grande cutthroat trout. But the biggest one being the second phase of the Sand Creek Reclamation Project. I think it's now two or three years ago. We did phase one, which is the lakes at the top. And now this would take the reclamation all the way down to the sand.
Katie
This is Great Sand Dunes, right?
Andrew
Great Sand Dunes. It's the northern drainage of great sand dunes. And because they had such heavy runoff, it became not realistic to do this year. So it's been kicked to next year. And I think that's the second year, actually, it's been put off, which we're excited to get it on the calendar for 2024. The biggest project that we were a part of this year was the Clear Fork of East Muddy Creek, which is in the headwaters of the Gunnison. And that's, I want to say, 14-ish miles of awesome habitat that has some Colorado River cutthroat trout in it and tributaries of it. But brook trout have invaded the main stem and we're sort of spreading upstream. So with these projects in the interior West, the big issue is you have to isolate these native fish from the non-natives, including brook trout, brown trout, and rainbow trout primarily because they don't compete well with brook and brown trout, hybridized with rainbow trout. So you have to isolate them. And in some places you have natural barriers like a waterfall that you can just, you know, then reclaim. And by reclaim, that means take out all the fish up above, which is a often contentious thing to do. But other places you have to actually build a barrier. So it's like a small dam, for lack of a better term, but that prevents that upstream migration of those non-natives once you knock out all the non-natives above so they don't reinvade it. And so this was a barrier project on the Clear Fork of East Money Creek that we kicked in, I want to say, $30,000 or $40,000. It ended up being a $600,000 project. But the good thing about our money is it can be used as a match. Oftentimes these bigger grants will require a match. And because the money we raise in our races is crowdfunded, it doesn't have the same strings attached, we can use it as a match or allow the agencies to use it as a match to get much more money. So our $40,000 was leveraged with a number, this was a huge collaboration, but a great project. And so now that phase two of that project will be in the coming years, they'll reclaim the watershed upstream and then reintroduce the Colorado River Cutthroat Trout up in that watershed. So that was a cool project. Yeah, I'd say that was the biggest one this year. We've got a lot of money still from past years, and that's part of the problem with inflation is that the cost of these materials in concrete and rebar have gone through the roof to do these projects. And so while our money is still sitting there waiting, that finding the remaining money has been a challenge because the cost has gone up in recent years. So we've got a number of projects that are on the shelf just waiting for the other money to come in, which is a little frustrating because our races were asking people to crowdfund for this. And so then we want to be accountable for that and say, here's what your money went to this year. And when a project sits on the shelf, it's harder to demonstrate that. But the work will get done and there's plenty of need for it. Because I know you know, but these native fish are in fractions of their historic watershed. And with climate change, it's imperative that we get them in key watersheds such that they can weather dry times or really hot times.
Katie
How much say do you have over where the money goes? Can you, because you've come up with this money and are donating it, are you allowed to say, hey, we want to focus on this stream or this species in particular, and it's not your market for anything else. You use it on this. Or is it like you kind of got to go with what other people are working on at the moment and kind of build on existing projects and just be glad that someone's willing to help a native species somewhere?
Andrew
A little bit of both. So the biologists with the state agencies and federal agencies, they usually have done the groundwork to know what watersheds are going to be most successful. We did, back when I worked for the U.S. Geological Survey, we did some of the groundwork in like the Sand Creek watershed to demonstrate temperatures are cool enough that even if it warms up a lot, it's still going to be cold enough for trout. Work like that, that groundwork sort of seems it needs to happen before you go in and spend the money to reclaim or to put in a barrier to protect that population. One good example of where we're kind of driving the bus is in the Jim Creek watershed, which is down in the San Luis Valley, up above La Jara Reservoir. And it's a creek that was overgrazed. And so it's, you know, 30 feet wide and two inches deep. And so between Trout Unlimited, who was leading it. And that's part of the problem, too, with being a part-time executive director, previously all volunteer organization, is you don't have enough time to focus on all that stuff, too. So this was a partnership with Kevin Terry, who's on our board, but works for Trout Unlimited, to try to narrow that stream, revegetate the banks so it stays within that new stream course that it was put in, and then to start to knock out some of the brook trout that are in there. And that's been a project that has been pretty grassroots without a whole lot of involvement from the other entities like Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But I think they're seeing the impact that it's having. And then Kevin and I have a bigger vision for that watershed as a whole that we'd like to see turn into like a really big meta population project like the Sand Dunes project. So it's a little bit of both in terms of where we're spending the money that's raised. But these biologists are the experts on where are the best opportunities. And so a lot of it is relationships I've built professionally and trusting these people that they know what's in the best interest of these or what are the best prospects for this fish, rather.
Katie
Any plans to do a mountain whitefish or a greenback cutthroat flyathlon in Colorado?
Andrew
Well, so I think we're always considering where we're going to go next. I think the next race that we're developing in-house is going to be in northern New Mexico. So we have a foundation based out of the San Luis Valley that has given us some money to help stand up a race in northern New Mexico so we're looking at a fall race down down there that would also benefit the rio grande cutthroat trout but yeah you know I love I love white fish I think I was out with a couple of buddies fishing in Idaho where there were a lot of white white fish and I want to say it was the salmon river but they're a fun fish to catch and and an underappreciated native. So I, I think that's the important thing with our races is that we, we, we want to raise interest and money and, and awareness around native fish, not just native trout. So I, this past June, I flew out to Arkansas, to, in, to explore developing races in Arkansas, where we would go towards a race that was a small mouth bass race and stuff. and other bass. There's like an Ozark bass, which is the coolest fish. It's got these blood red eyes. I'd never heard of it, but it's fun to catch. So I think I would definitely love to see races that aren't focused on trout in the future because sport fishing isn't limited to trout and nor is conservation.
Katie
Yeah, but there's a lot of people who don't even know about whitefish as as a native species because it doesn't have the same sexiness as a trout. I feel like most people who at least are in the fishing space in Colorado know that cutthroats are native and that they might be struggling or something. But I feel like a lot of people don't even know what a whitefish is, let alone that it belongs here.
Andrew
Yeah. I think part of the problem is it needs to be rebranded. I went fishing with a guide in Montana who called him Sparkle Trout, which I think might catch on. and just rename them that and then people will be interested.
Katie
Well, moving on to some of the maybe more fun stuff. Not that conservation is not fun, but it can at times feel a little bleak compared to the party part of the flyathlon. So tell me what's going on with some of the side events because I feel like in the last year or two, there's been a big explosion of just kind of like fun things to do in your own time that just keep you thinking about the flyathlon and keep you ready for it and things like that. So I know there's a bunch. There's like the Troutman series of things. There's the FKF. And I know the NASCARP is something I've seen talk of. So I'll let you take it away.
Andrew
Sure. Well, so your listeners had a chance to listen to Katie Mazzia talk a couple episodes ago about the Troutman. That has been a lot of fun and it's really blown up. So for those who didn't listen to that episode, there's four levels, the trout man, which is a marathon and four fish, the old trout with two umlauts. Don't forget the umlauts over the ewes. That's 50 miles and five different fish. Lucifer fish is 66.6 miles and six fish. And then Finsanity is 100 miles and 10 fish, all with elevation requirements and beer requirements and quote.
Katie
Or replacement.
Andrew
Right. or some equivalent painful experience to drinking a high ABV beer.
Katie
I know Palmer's talked about having to eat a dozen donuts or something like that.
Andrew
I forgot he was on too. Yeah, he ate some jelly donuts. Yeah, it just has to be fun.
Katie
Unpleasant. Something unpleasant.
Andrew
Even though I like drinking the high ABV.
Katie
Sure, yeah, I would argue the beer is a lot easier to stomach than the donuts.
Andrew
My wife has made that point. She's like, it's not fair to ask people to mace themselves when you're drinking a beer that you enjoy. So that's really taken off in interest. I think we had, I want to say, almost 20 trout man finishers this year, including three trout man finishers, three trout women in 2023. Two new ones, one in Christine. She was a trout woman before. And then four of us, three new, finished Ultrout in September, including Katie.
Katie
Which is funny because I think I had talked to her just before that. And I think she had said something like, I don't know if that's in my future. And then like three weeks later, she was like, oh, I did it. And I was like, when I talked to you, you weren't even sure if this was in your future at all, let alone within a couple of weeks.
Andrew
And I will say, Katie was like my spirit guide on that 50-mile day. I was hurting around 30-something. We'd already caught all five fish species and had roughly 20-some miles to go. And I was hurting, but she helped me through. We ended up going back and forth on a stretch of relatively level road up above Buena Vista to get the final miles in. So we were done with elevation. We were done with the fish. So we were just running back and forth together on this road. She's an amazing, as your listeners, I'm sure, picked up on. She's an amazing human. And it was fun to be out there with her and finish it with her. So then this year, we're planning on taking it to the next step. There is one individual who's already completed Lucifish in Bryon Powell. Bryon. But the rest of us are going to try to get that done in July to set us up for 100-mile, the Fin Sanity in September. Whether or not I can complete it or not, we'll see. But that's the plan.
Katie
so I think I had asked palmer this and he wasn't quite sure because we were talking about trout man requires four species of salmonids correct at some point 10 species of salmonids no starts to right that doesn't exist I don't know if that exists so what at what point does it go from having to be salmonids to you can start to branch out and maybe run around your local pond that has you know five different species of bass and panfish in it to get some of those species.
Andrew
Well, you'll notice that the progression, it goes from trout man, old trout, to Lucifish. It's where we start to run out of salmonids. And that said, we've had people reach out and say, we don't have four species of trout in West Virginia or whatever. What can I do? So we're always willing to make exceptions. It's funny sometimes to get emails from folks who don't know me and they're like, well, this works, sir. And I'm like, first of all, don't, don't ever call me that again. And yeah, let's, let's make it work. Cause it's, it's all in the spirit of fun. But, the, the Fin Sanity, the 10 fish in Colorado, our, our plan is to start somewhere near Grand Junction where we can pick up maybe three or four warm water species and then run up onto Grand Mesa where you can get seven or eight Salmonids and then finish up there in 48 hours. So that's, it's going to be a challenge. There's going to be some running overnight, but which I've never done. I'm planning on doing it with Katie. First of all, she and I both have to finish Lucifish first. Because you can't skip, right? You can't skip.
Katie
You can't skip. I mean, I don't know why you, you would technically have done both in the same one if you skipped.
Andrew
Right. So you've got to do them separately. Yes. And you can't count one as two different categories. So, you know, you, it's progressive. Um, and so I, I, yeah, I still need to get the hundred K version, see if this body will finish a hundred K before I go a hundred miles. But I figure I'm on, I'm starting that descending limb of the, the physical bell curve of life. And, I need to try it now or, or never try it. So, my wife is not as enthusiastic, but well, she'll, she'll come around. Yeah, she'll come around. She'll be real excited for me when to finish it or not but so that's that's the plan for this summer and I actually think that I don't know if katie ended up convincing you to do it or not
Katie
yes she I have promised her that I will at least attempt a trout man with her this summer which is funny because the still to this day the longest I've ever run is the lake fork flyathlon that is the longest run I've ever done in one sitting, which is 10 miles on essentially flat. But she did remind me that you've got enough time that you could power walk it if you really knew where your species were and hit them. So I'm thinking, you know, I can do that distance, I'm sure. It's just a matter of can I maybe go faster on some of the downhills and make up some of that time. But I think I can do it. And she's waiting on me.
Andrew
I know you can do it, but I was worried that you might not have a 12% beer, so I brought you one oh wonderful it is a barrel aged english style barley wine from westbound and down coming in at 13.9 percent but it's only eight ounces so small does it count yes it counts. I hereby decree that it counts
Katie
thank you I don't know if I've ever held a 13 plus percent beer well there it is now what happens if somebody brought you know a 12 percent beer that they put into a little container like this and took a shot of it is that is that just not in the spirit you
Andrew
We'd put it in front of the rules committee, which is me. And I would make an executive decision slash determination. But no, that one counts. I had that after the first Trout Man I did in 2023. And that, it's delicious.
Katie
I'm going to leave it in here so I see it all the time.
Andrew
Okay, good.
Katie
While I don't want to go running. And then I look over and I see it staring me in the eyes. Yes. I'm going to say, man, I can't fail you all.
Andrew
The fact that a 14% beer will motivate you to get out and run means that I've done my job. So it's good.
Katie
And tell me about FKF. And I don't know if we can hint at the new website.
Andrew
Sure. Oh, sure. Okay. Sure. So FKF is Fastest Known Fish. It's a play on a popular ultra running website called Fastest Known Time, which basically says, from this parking lot to the top of this mountain, who did it the fastest? That's essentially FKT boiled down. FKF is the same thing, just add a fish and beer. And so we've got different categories in it, multiple fish, round trip, single fish, one way, various versions of that. And the idea is to, we've developed a website, which I think is pretty awesome. You've seen it. It was super cool. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. We're trying to figure out the best time to roll it out to the unwashed masses, but I think soon to build a buzz around going out. And so the idea being people can go out and set their own courses. And then once we've got this map on the website built out, then when you're in a place with your fly rod wanting to go for a run, you can look at the website and see where these FKFs are. and can I go try to beat one just to have it be fun. And like you said, create challenges outside of the actual events to get people interested in pairing the two.
Katie
Yeah, it's been super fun. And I've done my job of going out and finding routes that then people can really easily beat because my times are terrible. So I'm just out there scouting. I really liked the feature on the website, which this is coming back to me being really slow. you can see like a history of like who's done the route and in what time so there's kind of a record of like how is this route progressed over time because you know when I've done some I don't I don't know what a good time would be like I don't know what if Bryon went out and did it what would he do yeah it'd be cool to see how you know if once multiple people start doing the same route right how that how that goes over time
Andrew
yeah it I think it's gonna be it's gonna be fun I've got maybe five or six out there that, like you said, are totally beatable and sometimes just set them to try to motivate people to get out and do them faster. Because at the end of it, you know, five years from now, I don't want to have the FKF on anything. I want other people to have gone out and tried these to see the cool places. I should say, you know, people get, and I think I saw on one episode, someone talked about spot burning. And so I, again, am the content dictator on what makes it onto the website. So if I see something that is, you know, either a sensitive fishery that I'm aware of, that someone's trying to put down a course that we're sharing publicly, I can, I reserve the right to say, no, this is not going on our website. So trying to keep it to those areas that are, you know, but, but that's set or recreational populations. But that said, like if someone's got, if someone's willing to run 10 miles back to a lake to set an FKF, I'm okay with them doing that. So it's, but I, you know, we, we do, we are conscious of not putting the most, you know, sensitive places out there just for anyone to, not that we have a huge traffic coming to our website just yet, but maybe someday.
Katie
Yeah. And I think I don't want to be like the ethics police and deem like who is good and who is not. But I like to think that most people who are in the fly up on world on your websites and thinking about this kind of stuff aren't the type of people who are going to go destroy a spot. And that doesn't mean, I mean, the whole internet has access to it. So it's not just limited to these people. But like you said, someone who's willing to run 10 miles back, carry a fly rod, probably and the person who's dropping a bunch of But Light cans in the water and killing all the fish before they leave and leaving the place desolate. So I like to think that people doing that are going to take care of the resource.
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. And then the other non-race engagement thing that we've got going currently, and then I'll talk about NASCARP. Don't let me forget about NASCARP because that's epic is the fish slapping oh right right which essentially is where you catch a fish during another person's or another entity's sanctioned run and you take a picture on their race bib I used to have a requirement that you send that photo to the race director of that race but now it's just send it in to us and so that this past summer we had the most epic fish slap ever in again Bryon Powell who fish slapped the hard rock 100 so for those this is a mostly fishing audience but this is a hundred mile race in and around silverton telluride some of the most difficult terrain to run in and he stopped three times and caught I want to say two cutthroat and one brook trout in this 100 mile run and people it's fun to do because when you're running with a fly rod in your backpack people are like what people love it what the hell are you doing
Katie
you've done two now. I did one and I swear I talked to half the racers on that course because they were all so intrigued by what was going on
Andrew
yep and it's an opportunity to educate people who do these races they don't always know what you know they're just running to to run this race they don't know that there's cutthroat in the creek right next to them and I think it's it really is an opportunity to educate and also for people to look at you and think you're crazy but yeah it's a ton of fun but then NASCARP and this is the perfect time to crack beer number two and three and four and five so it it is sort of the relay version of the flyathlon and we we piloted it last summer or last April rather up at paco chupac which is below ridgeway reservoir up near Montrose and so the premise is is pretty simple you gotta your teams have two, two drivers. You can have other people on your team. You can have someone in your pit stop who is like a, just a fisher person who, but there's two drivers. And each driver has to run three laps and a lap consists of running a distance and then coming in, catching a fish, safely releasing the fish and then refueling. And the distance that they go and the fuel that they refuel with is dependent on the division that they're in. So the lowest division is called the unleaded division. So that's any refuel under 5%. So it could be a Tecate Light. It could be a athletic non-alcoholic beer. It could be a Red Bull, a Mountain Dew, anything, just not water because that's cheating.
Katie
That's too much like actual fuel.
Andrew
And then the laps are one mile. So the next division up is called diesel. And so that's two mile loops and between a 5% and 8% beer to refuel. And I think that's probably what we'll run with for this first year. The third division would be nitro. And that's three mile loops and above 8% beer. So it works. The first person, the first people from each team lineup, gun goes off, they go out, they run. In the meantime, the other person is fishing the pond trying to figure out what's working.
Katie
Is the runner fishing along the way or is it like run it and then you fish?
Andrew
Right. It's like the pit stop. You fish at the pit stop. So you run your mile, you come back in, your partner's waiting for you, hands you the fly rod. You've got to catch a fish. He can help you net it. He can't fish for you.
Katie
Can you move from that spot? Can your pit stop kind of move around the lake? Okay, but you've got to then still come back and run the mile for me.
Andrew
As long as you're not encroaching on another team's pit stop to inhibit their fishing, which happened in our pilot race. There was some can throwing and among other things. But yeah, so they come in. They got to take the rod, catch a fish, net it, safely release it, refuel, turn it upside down. As soon as that is empty and a bunch of volume doesn't fall out, the next person goes. And then the race is over when the six pack is finished. And, and, and that fast, the entity, the team that does that the fastest wins. And it was so much fun.
Katie
And where was the pilot? Was it in Staunton?
Andrew
Uh, the, the pilot or the actual first race we're going to try to hold in June at Staunton state park.
Katie
Okay. So that was not, that was the first race. Where was the pilot?
Andrew
The pilot was in near Ridgeway. Oh, right. Right.
Katie
You mentioned that.
Andrew
But this will be close to the front range. And we're envisioning teams. The fundraising part of it will come with teams. So think NASCAR, like those button-down jerseys that have logos of Pennzoil and Skoal. Instead, we'll have fishing-themed logos and beer-themed logos on those same. They make them on the internet, of course, because the internet makes everything. You can get custom NASCAR-style jerseys made. And so that's my vision for, you know, you get the Westbound and Downs Laws Whiskey House will be one of my sponsors, in part because my co-driver is the CFO of Laws. So that'll be on our jersey, prominently featured somewhere. And then I think we'll see how the fundraising goes, but try to get those companies interested in what we're doing and interested in conservation. because Staunton is in the greenback cutthroat trout native range. Any money we raise from the first NASCARP. And that name, I should say, is subject to lawsuit. If NASCAR decides they want to waste their time suing a small conservation fishing race, it may change. But I told one of the lawyers that I work with my idea for NASCARP. He's like, you're going to get sued. which I doubt but we'll see
Katie
and so is it on the racers to reach out to try to get sponsors from from companies and is there a fundraising minimum like how does that work
Andrew
this is a work in progress so this is this being year one like many of our our events is you know we're figuring it out I think we've got enough you know friends and family interested to show up and and give it a run and we'll figure out the fundraising model as we go here. But I'll work on it on Fridays between now and June, figuring out what the model actually is. But I think it has the potential, unlike most of our flyathlon races where people are going out and back, there's not a real opportunity for friends and family to watch. I think at Staunton, these ponds are pretty small, but there's a lot of area for people to sit around. And if people are coming back in every mile, there's opportunity for high drama, high excitement.
Katie
Hackling.
Andrew
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Katie
Or heckling, I guess.
Andrew
Yeah. But hackling. I like the use of hackle.
Katie
Yes. I totally meant to say hackling and not heckling.
Andrew
I could tell. But I think it's going to be awesome. So we'll be rolling that out. I think June. I got June 1st and June 2nd reserved. So I'm working with the people at Staunton to get it dialed in, mostly around when they're going to stock a shit ton of stalker rainbows so that people can catch fish real quickly and it feels more like a race versus just watching paint dry.
Katie
Plus, it feels like you shouldn't be catching native species during a NASCARP. It feels like it should be a really trashy event. And like a stocked fish that fell out of a truck three minutes before sounds like the right quarry for that type of phrase.
Andrew
Yeah. So not actual carp, but, you know, like a stock rainbow trout is fairly close to, you know, the equivalent of a carp. And then we've got a couple other rules. Like you have to run, like in a running race, you run with a baton. The baton in this race is a can of chew of your choice. You don't have to actually chew, and please don't. But just having the chew on your person when you're running. If you're caught without your can of chew, you can be disconnected. These are rules we made up at the pilot event over near Ridgeway. At some point, someone threw in a rule about, you know, like, you can either run a penalty lap or remove a tooth. So you can tell what kind of state we were in when we were coming up with these rules. But not all of which might make the final rule sheet.
Katie
Are there any, I'm trying to, I don't know enough about NASCAR. My husband watches some Formula One. So I know there's like different times where you have to like drive slower if you, you know, fouled somebody or anything. It sounds like it'll kind of evolve. So as the races go, you'll probably learn more about like, this is a problem we're facing. People keep doing this thing. So we need to find a way to penalize them. And you can morph that around.
Andrew
Yeah, I haven't ever watched NASCAR. So this is all just me projecting what I think NASCAR is as a fishing race. So I think we learned a couple things in that pilot race, but we'll learn more, as is the case with, or has been the case with the flyathlon. We'll learn as we go and try to make it more fun. The flyathlons, we change little things about them each year just to try to make them more fun, make them, you know, make them safer, make them better. So it's an evolution.
Katie
I'm curious, and you can give as much detail as you want. There's a lot of rules in the fly-a-thon that sound kind of specific. Were all those rules made because somebody did something?
Andrew
Like which ones?
Katie
Like hide a dead fish in a backpack, things like that.
Andrew
No, I tried to anticipate a lot of ways that people might cheat and just include them in the rulebook from the get-go. We have taken some rules offline because they've been more of a pain in the ass than I anticipated. Like I did initially say you got to run. You got to start and finish the race with your rod broken down.
Katie
Yeah, I've noticed that that has kind of evolved over time.
Andrew
Yeah, it's because someone complained about someone else. They took it too seriously and they said, oh, well, but this person finished with their rod assembled. They should be disqualified. That's not really the spirit of what we're doing here.
Katie
Yeah, there's a difference between stashing gear and I just caught my fish 50 feet before the end of the run and I'm just running into the end. I feel like the idea is, is it in the spirit of the race or are you too concerned about winning here and it's getting not fun anymore to play with you basically?
Andrew
And those people usually don't stick around, the people that are overly competitive. I'd say, and that's partly by design. We have tried to structure the race. So like the Middle Creek race, you know, seven miles round trip. You have six hours to do that. So that's creating an environment that's not overly competitive. Some people finish it much faster than that, but others roll in at five hours, and they still have a chance to win the whole thing because if they have either the biggest or smallest fish they get into the leisure sport olympics and then they can win the whole thing so we've tried to to make it accessible in that way to people who don't run you can hike it and be successful the the other thing with fishing we've got a lot of people who are new to fishing that come to these things and with the fish whispers out on the course you can go visit them and and they'll help you get into a fish or try without penalty and so we're trying to make both of these things more accessible to people so they're not intimidated by it might take it up where before they they just you don't want to go into a fly shop and feel dumb when you don't know what to ask for so we're trying to eliminate some of that I need like a run whisperer I need someone who can make me magically better at running on the course yeah yeah you and me both I i I don't think that exists I i I'm I'm going to continue to look for it but I don't think it exists for the NASCARP
Katie
I like the sound of it because it feels like it could come down into the front range too like I don't know you know how big this is going to grow or anything but if you're not focused necessarily on native fish and it is more about kind of the party aspect you know I i could see coming down to like saint vrain state park where there's just a bunch of ponds with all kinds of fish in them. And it's, you're not limited. Like flyathlons can only take place in kind of specific locations based on, you need a trail, you need to be at least some respectable distance. And there needs to be ideally like a native fish available nearby.
Andrew
And that's in part by design, the remoteness of where we set up flyathlon races is because we do want people to come and unplug for the weekend and both both the Colorado races are in places that don't get a cell signal so you you kind of it forces people to engage in a way that seems to be dying in in this country and and probably in the world so that that's part of what I what I like about the flyathlon that that and also if you're if you've got a a drinking event which the flyathlon can be if you choose to do it. It's not required. But to have people come and stay for the whole weekend makes peace of mind for us that much greater. So, you know, an event close to the front range, like a traditional flyathlon, my concern would be people come, they race, they drink a bunch of beers, and then they try to drive home. So in the NASCARP teams, we're going to build, you have to have an actual DD if you're drinking. If you're drinking. Yeah. The unleaded division is also partially to allow people to participate without drinking. So we're trying to de-emphasize the drinking component of what the flyathlon is because we want to be inclusive. And that's something with the running, with the fishing, the things we do there. So we're trying to, you know, be more inclusive of people who don't drink. And that's great. I'm likely to become one of those at some point. Maybe not entirely, but maybe less.
Katie
Yeah, that's kind of where I've been moving. Mike accidentally grabbed a non-alcoholic beer at the Flyathlon and was repulsed by it. He ended up in the cooler that was all non-alcoholic beer. And I was like, oh, I didn't even know this was here, but I'm like kind of interested. Try to drink a little less, but I really like the beer aspect of the Flyathlon. So just making it a little bit more, like it's okay to not drink, but also you still want to have a good time and everything.
Andrew
Yeah, there's some great non-alcoholic beer options out there. One of our sponsors for the last couple of years has been Athletic. I mean, it's the new thing out there. There's all sorts of non-alcoholic, craft non-alcoholic options out there. From my perspective, athletic does it the best, but it's a growing category for sure.
Katie
And are there any big plans for the 10th anniversary of Middle Creek?
Andrew
That falls into the TBD.
Katie
Okay, but it's not out of the question.
Andrew
Some unique elements to it?
Katie
Yeah, like it might not be a fully standard. You don't have to share too much.
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, I think it's an opportunity. From my perspective, the fact that we've been doing this for 10 years is crazy, but it's also an opportunity to go even bigger on the fundraising side of things and, you know, communicate those expectations because we're not doing this entirely for fun. It's a lot of fun when we do it, but it's also a lot of work to put them on. And so to set that expectation with folks, I think, is something we'll do with the 10th. But yeah, I think we'll have some unique swag. We've thought about going back to the original logo for the 10th, like a throwback logo. I don't know if you remember the old one. It was clip art from the internet. So it's got like a silhouette of Usain Bolt and then a fish silhouette and then a beer silhouette.
Katie
The run fish beer.
Andrew
So we may put those on t-shirts again for the 10th, maybe just for that race, not for the other one. So, you know, some throwback swag maybe. Not sure otherwise, but we've got some ideas that we're kicking around to make it epic. It's always, that course in particular always makes me nervous because it is such a small stream and it's so subject to the, you know, what, if it's a real dry year, is it going to be super skinny? And so there's not a whole lot we can do in terms of like changing up the course up in there. But we'll have some, well, I feel like every year we dial in the race better. So if nothing else, it'll feel different because it'll be more organized. But it, yeah, there's some things we're thinking about.
Katie
Cool. Well, to wrap up, where can people find Running Rivers or, you know, any of these events? I know the FCAF website is going to be up soon, but I don't know if you can find the old ones anywhere or share whatever you'd like to share, basically.
Andrew
Yeah, so it's all on runningrivers.org. And we've got the dates for the races in 2024 up there. I'm working on getting registration and all that set up. That usually we do registration in like the March timeframe. So it's on my list of shit to do between now and March. But the dates, registration dates, I think, are up on the website for March. So that's where to find everything. Once we get the FKF site up and running, we'll share that with our listserve. But we'll also, it'll link to it from the FKF tab on the Running Rivers page. It's its own unique website, but it'll be linked there for sure.
Katie
And how about NASCARP? When that finally comes around, can they find that on?
Andrew
Yes, it'll be on the same website. So that's on my list to do in the next couple weeks is to build that website. And apologies in advance to your listeners if they go to my website. I'm a toxicologist, not a web designer and all of this. I'm just winging it. So it's a lot of fun, though. that site in particular the or the NASCARP page I intend to be a lot of fun so yeah
Katie
well I bet you can have a lot of fun with that one and yeah again it feels like where you can throw all of your trashy ideas into one race and it feels like it fits
Andrew
yes yes it it's I'm very much looking forward to it and of course this whole thing is just a creative outlet that yeah I get to build with my friends, fun stuff. And we're always throwing ideas off of one another. And it really is an outstanding, that's what I've grown to appreciate the most in these 10 years is the community that has developed around it. And I think it's also been important in, you know, kind of broadening what a fly fisherman is and can be. You know, you see all these, you see all these people in a thousand dollar waders and you really don't necessarily need all that stuff to, to get out and be successful in catching fish and have a great time. And so we're trying to change sort of the demographic of what, what a fly, fly fisherman or woman is. And so that's been fun to see that evolution, to see people actually out running with a fly rod. I mean, I've seen that on my, my runs and I'm like, did I create that? I don't know, but it's exciting to see that people are doing that because there's so many great places that aren't on the big boards at the fly shop that we can spread out that interest too in the new places. So that's something I've appreciated. But the community of people is outstanding. And my wife said it just earlier today to her sister. She's like, that's what, it's really kind of incredible, the people that are involved with this, including yourself, but also like, I mean, there's just, it's a wide cross-section of runners, fishermen, people that like beer, people that like to party in the woods. And everyone seems to enjoy themselves when we're sitting around the campfire without our cell phones working. So that's by design. And I'm glad it seems to be working. I hope there's never a fight at a fly one, but...
Katie
Maybe at the NASCARP. That feels like the place. And at the end, and once you finish your six pack, then you have to fight someone.
Andrew
Right. Yeah, you have to get pissed at someone for cutting you off on the trail. But that, yeah, it'll be a lot of fun.
Katie
You said it brings together people who like to run, people who like to fish, people who like to drink beer. Everyone I've met usually has one or the other that they kind of participate in both. I'm primarily an angler, but I will go out and run. And there's some people there who are runners who are just learning to fish. I like the idea that someone just drinks beer and that is their life's purpose. Yes. They're like, but I'm going to do this event because it has beer in it. Now they've picked up trail running and fishing just to feed their beer.
Andrew
I should say, I don't want to get sappy or anything, but I have had people tell me that these races have motivated them to get off the couch and do something because it is putting together the two things that they enjoy in drinking beer and fishing.
Katie
Those two are the easy ones.
Andrew
Right, but I've heard stories from folks about this motivated them to get out and strap some running shoes on, and then it changed their perspective on exercise. And, you know, as a country, I think that's not a bad thing for people to get more interested in getting out and getting a little bit physical. So that's been powerful for me too, is to hear stories like that. There aren't a lot of them, or maybe there are a lot of them and people aren't sharing them with me, but occasionally I hear stuff like that. I'm like, yeah, that's not what I was trying to do with this, but that's kind of cool.
Katie
Well, in the context of being a good community, when we hit that deer last year, I don't know if I mentioned it on the show, but we towed our truck last year about five miles away from the fly-athlete And after like a three hour drive, we hit a deer and totaled the truck. And it was, you know, obviously devastating and extremely inconvenient. But I was like, luckily, there's like a hundred of the nicest people five miles down the road. All we have to do is get to them. And I know we'll be okay.
Andrew
You got to ride home. You got to whatever you need in terms of gear. Yeah.
Katie
Everything was taken care of. And I was just like, of all the places that we could wreck the truck, you know, being this close to that many people who all like as soon as we arrived, everyone jumped to help and gave us everything we needed. I still got to run the race. I thought for sure, you know, when it happened, I was like, I'm done. Like we, our sole goal at this point is to get us in this vehicle back home. And instead I was still able to run. We still enjoyed the party that night and got ourselves back with a ride to Denver.
Andrew
And you guys weren't even the biggest drama at the, at that race. The following night when kids are off playing out, you know, a mile away on the landscape somewhere and one of them comes running back and it's like, Jimmy's in a well, like, what do we do? And just to watch the mass of humanity mobilize and go up that hill to try to help this kid who ended up being fine.
Katie
Yeah, one of the kids said he fell 20 feet down like a cave. And I was like, yikes. And then I think it turned out to be that kids don't know how far 20 feet is.
Andrew
Yeah, he was doing parkour and fell between two rocks. And he was banged up and scared. And they were all scared. But it was just to watch everyone drop what they were doing and run up that hill to try to help this kid. I was like, this is pretty cool. So I grabbed the in-reach and an extension cord because we didn't have a rope. And I got the exact same message you heard, which is 20 feet down in a well. I'm like, what can I grab? So I grabbed an extension cord and the in-reach. And I was running up the hill. This is something that I was worried about in that moment. I'm running up the hill in my running kilt, which is part of the Trout Man. Once you've finished a Trout Man, you earn the right to wear a kilt, even if you're not Scottish.
Katie
Do women wear kilts or is that just called skirts?
Andrew
No, they're kilts too. It's called runningkilt.com. They're pretty cool. I'm running up the hill in a kilt and flip-flops, and there's cactus everywhere and rocks. I'm thinking, we're going to have to use the unreached to call in search and rescue. They're going to be like, who's in charge here? They're going to look at me and be like, oh my fucking God. Fortunately, he was good and just had to sit out for a few minutes. Then he was back in partying with the kids again.
Katie
Well, I got to say that's the only time I've ever been in a Jimmy fell down a well situation. I know.
Andrew
And we navigated it.
Katie
Cool. Well, cheers again. On that note, we can wrap it up. This is awesome. But thank you for coming. And maybe we'll do another one in another 120 episodes.
Andrew
That sounds... Or after you've done a... After your TroutWoman.
Katie
Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, Katie Mazzia is waiting for me.
Andrew
Someone can interview you about your experience. I don't want to be that person. You do it much better than I would.
Katie
Katie will do it. She'll do it.
Andrew
and I’ll sit in the background and be like, yeah.
Katie
Sounds good. Well, thank you again, Andrew.
Andrew
Awesome.
Katie
We can wrap this up.
Andrew
All right.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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