Ep 98: Fly Fishing for Smallmouth Bass, with Joe Davies
Joe Davies is a guide and the owner of Milwaukee River Fly Fishing. After working as a fashion designer and Olympic and World Cup Freestyle skiing coach, Joe has focused on his passion for fly fishing the waters of southeastern Wisconsin for smallmouths, pike, and carp. In this episode, we talk about all things related to smallmouth bass fishing, including gear, techniques, seasons, and much more.
Milwaukee River Fly Fishing Website: link
Instagram: @milwaukee_river_fly_fishing
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 98 with Joe Davies on fly fishing for smallmouth bass. I always start by getting a background on my guests usually fishing history but I know we just talked off air a little bit about how we're going to go a little bit farther back for you So I want to hear how you got started in your career based on what you put in your document. It sounds like you started as a fashion designer and then we're going to go from there. So why don't we start with that and then we'll get to the fishing later on and then kind of carry on from there.
Joe
Well, even before I got into fashion, I was a professional skier at a very young age. I was about 13. And this was years and years ago when doing, you know, a backflip at a young age was a big deal. And one of, you know, I generated a certain notoriety because of that and was going to regional competitions and then national competitions. And then by the time I was 15, I was put on the U.S. development team and skied competitively on the World Cup level and unfortunately got injured right before the Olympics, which is something that certainly happens. It was kind of a traumatic brain injury that pushed me out of it. And I always knew that school was quite important to me. So I wanted to go to school. Took a bit of a probably eight month hiatus and traveled Europe and literally wrote my dad a postcard from the beach that said, I'll be back in September. Pick a school out for me. You know, I don't have time for this. And so I decided to go to Marquette University. And from there, I met the young lady that would become my wife at the time. And we moved to New Zealand for seven years.
Katie
So you're already off to a starting start.
Joe
That's right. Yeah. One of the things I found so difficult living in New Zealand was finding a job. I mean, I remember collecting all 127 rejection letters from employers saying, you know, you have no New Zealand experience. And I really had to think to myself, you know, what are the marketable skills that you have? And my mom taught me to sew when we were young. And I can create a pattern. And I was into art. So I ended up getting a grant to start my own business in New Zealand called Involved. And it was kind of a streetwear fashion company predicated on my stencil art. So that lasted for quite some time. And but really, it was a lot of fun. But it's tough to pay the bills in that industry big time. And particularly when you're a small company. And eventually that kind of faded away. And I went to med school for a while, dropped out of that and ended up getting into pharmaceutical and medical device sales. And kind of ironically, it was through medical device sales that I learned to fly fish. I had fished a little bit in New Zealand because I was a surfer. And this was before the days of webcams when you just click, click, click, and you see the waves. They're good or they're bad, but you would drive two hours out to beaches. And if there were no waves or it was blown out, you would go and fish for a few hours. And one of the surgeons that I worked with recognized that I was, you know, into a lot of things. And he was kind of like, you know, New Zealand's got some pretty proper fly fishing here. You ought to give it a rip. And I said, sweet, I'm in. And yeah, I suppose it was just one of those things that kept growing and growing and becoming more and more of my interest.
Katie
So I have to ask, where did you grow up that you were into both skiing and surfing?
Joe
Wisconsin.
Katie
Okay. So how does that happen?
Joe
That happened. I mean, literally, I think by the time I was 12 or 13, I was banned from most of the ski areas for doing flips. They didn't have sophisticated enough insurance. And they were referred to as snowboard parks because skiers weren't even allowed in them. And, so I would go in there and, you know, kind of hot dog around and get kicked out. And we finally built a 60 foot kicker in my backyard that we towed each other in on snowmobiles with because Wisconsin being notoriously flat had no other way of generating speed. And my logic behind that was definitely one of, if I can do these jumps on a very, very sketchy, unsophisticated backyard jump, a proper sight was never going to scare me.
Katie
Right. Yeah. Because I assume that, I mean, I don't know a lot about the actual building of the big parks at the resorts, but there's a lot of planning that goes into the jumps, how they're angled, where the landing is going to be positioned and all that. Right. So I assume that your jump is kind of just like haphazard, make it and hope that it goes well.
Joe
Yeah, I did my I did my best research at age 15 to do the math and it panned out. But having said that, yeah, it was a bit of a leap of faith, so to speak.
Katie
Now, at what point did you fit in being the coach of the ski team? Because that's, I feel like we overlooked this. You were in med school and surfing and all these other things. Where did you squeeze this in in your free time?
Joe
Yeah, I, about my, she's my ex-wife now. We had separated and about three days later, I get a call from the US from an old athlete and friend of mine saying, you know, we really could could use a coach like you with this technical breadth of knowledge on our staff. And I was like, well, your timing's pretty good. Happen to be coming back. So I very quickly started in development, coaching athletes just under the level of the U.S. ski team. Okay. And in about four and a half months, all of them made the team. So worked myself out of a job, so to speak. And that was definitely noticed. And yeah, ended up getting a call in an airport going to San Diego to go surfing. that like, hey, you got a job. And yeah. So yeah, it was it was just kind of, you know, kind of happenstance that had happened and loved it. Yeah.
Katie
So this happened while you were you got this first call when you were in New Zealand still working in fashion and then came back to do this. And then you said that you had you'd started fishing while you were in New Zealand then, right?
Joe
That's right. Yeah. I had a mild interest in it. It was something that I did instead of surfing, if the waves were bad. But yeah, I can envision exactly where I was when it happened. I caught my first brown trout on a fly rod and everything else was just like, oh, yeah, there's no other type of fish in other than this way. This is what I love. It made sense to me. I mean, honestly, I don't think I could take a conventional rod and reel and cast it without hooking myself in the ear or creating a bird's nest. Whereas fly fishing, I guess just the way it was introduced to me in New Zealand, it immediately made sense to me.
Katie
I mean, talk about starting at a place that nowhere else to go up from there though.
Joe
Oh, yeah.
Katie
Most people start like a farm pond.
Joe
For sure. But I really don't have the stories of going up there and really beating up on the water and having all this success. I mean, probably the thing I remember most is going on a 13-day skunk. And I mean like proper days. You're out there six, eight hours and not catching anything. But it gave me a certain amount of determination. And then on the 14th day, I caught a couple of fish and started putting some things together. And as it happened, moved immediately to Sun Valley, Idaho, where they have quite a good trout population, and then stayed in Park City for about 10 years.
Katie
Okay. And I assume this is from skiing. That's why you're going to Sun Valley and then to Park City.
Joe
Exactly.
Katie
Okay.
Joe
Yeah. And, you know, you can only really ski in the winter. And I needed to find something that I enjoyed during the summer. And, you know, albeit I really enjoy mountain biking and skateboarding and a lot of other things, I was quickly recognizing fly fishing as something that you could do for your entire life. You know, I remember speaking with, you know, a gentleman who was well into his 70s, and he hadn't missed a tarpon season in 25 years. And I'm like, yep, this will work.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, there is something really appealing about that. Not that you can't, for example, ski, you know, late into your life, But the quality of it in terms of if you really like doing backflips, you're not going to be doing that when you're 80. And fly fishing has a very, I feel like, slow decline as you age. Yeah, you might not be able to hike as far back in or raft something crazy, but at the end of the day, you can still wade, like most rivers that people are wading, basically until you can't walk anymore.
Joe
That's right.
Katie
Which is a really appealing thing about it, where it's like I don't have to worry about giving this up at some point in my life.
Joe
That's right. And that's, and I think just from the brief introduction I gave, it kind of exemplifies the fact I've always followed my passions. And, after moving back to Wisconsin, after finishing up my skiing, like kind of coaching career, I took about a year off, just to kind of work on myself and really kind of consequently got to know our local waterways really well because I was out there on them and every day, every condition, low water, high water, you know, I got to see it all. And because I had a certain amount of experience, I was able to not only adapt to a new species, which was smallmouth bass and pike and carp, but was able to have success and not go on a 13-day skunk.
Katie
Yeah. I think that's the kind of par for the course in New Zealand, though. I think the reputation it has is that it's really tough, but there's big risk, big reward kind of thing. Whereas I feel like most of the US is kind of the opposite. There's not a lot of places that you can catch the same caliber of fish as you can New Zealand, but it's very rare to go 13 days without catching something if you go out.
Joe
That's right. Yeah. And I think that was the initial appeal was that you were able to go out and have success virtually year round out in Park City and really started enjoying it. And as we traveled with the U.S. ski team, I would bring, you know, my fly tying vice and my rod with me everywhere we went. So got to experience, you know, seeing the world with a fly rod in your hand.
Katie
So tell me how you've gotten from there to where you are now, because I saw in your email that you've recently taken over a fly fishing company. And I'd love to hear, like, you know, how, how'd you go from trout in New Zealand and out west to kind of focusing on these warm water species and really honing your craft?
Joe
Absolutely. And again, I think it was, you know, kind of just a coincidence that our trout water in Wisconsin, from where we're located in the south eastern portion of the state, all the good trout fishing is really in the southwest portion, which is about three hours away. And even though Wisconsin actually has more trout water than the state of Colorado, which most people find it tough to believe, the driftless region is fabulous, but it seemed like a long walk for a ham sandwich, so to speak. You know, you really had to go out there for days and I did and it was a lot of fun. But just 10 minutes from the house was the Milwaukee River and a very good section of the Milwaukee River. And yeah, I think the first time I went out, ended up catching like an 18 inch bass. And I was like, Oh, wow, no, these are really interesting fish and it's a really dynamic way that you fish for them. And I also kind of noticed that not only does Milwaukee have very few fly shops, they have even fewer guide services for fly fishermen. So I kind of slowly started guiding and teaching over the course of about two and a half years and then really was starting to take it on and was going to go out on my own, unfortunately, kind of coincided with when COVID hit. And I remember losing every client in three days. And I mean, had a calendar booked and lost everybody in three days. And, you know, said, well, this is something that's going to have to be put on hold for a while. Ended up doing my own thing. And there was another gentleman, Pete Nikolov, who is kind of a business partner of mine. We were both guiding the same piece of water, doing it independently, but we're really good friends. And all of a sudden, you know, I'm sending a business I couldn't take. He was sending me a lot of business that he couldn't take. And it just made sense for us to team up. So that's what we did last year. And then after a bit of a conversation, I became the sole proprietor of Milwaukee River Fly Fishing.
Katie
That's awesome. And you said that was like pretty recent?
Joe
Yeah, two days ago.
Katie
Okay, so real recent. Well, that's awesome. I'm glad to hear that you've kind of, quote unquote, made it. It sounds like that's kind of the pinnacle. I feel like we're kind of past COVID at this point, not truly past COVID, but past COVID in the way that people are behaving at least. They're back out on the water. Things are moving again. So that's really exciting for you.
Joe
Yeah, it is. And again, it's something very akin to coaching because I remember one of the guides I really look up to Kobe Crossland made a comment to me that, you know, if an angler steps off your boat and they're not better at their craft, you made a mistake. Um, so that's really the value add that we, you know, at Milwaukee river fly fishing, try to do, we want everybody to take away something and go, you know what, next time I'm on the river, I'm going to try this, or I'm going to be working on, you know, my double haul or whatever it may be. I think that the educational component, I mean, the easy part's putting somebody on fish, you know, that, that, that's not that hard. But kind of doing it in a particular way takes quite a bit of skill. And oftentimes there's an acquisition period. I mean, oftentimes even with experienced anglers, well, right off the boat launch, there's a nice little eddy. And I'll just have them make casts in that eddy and see where my range is and where I've got to position that boat all day. And, you know, too close and you're spooking fish and you won't have success. So you've got to be able to kind of make that 40 to 50 foot accurate cast to all the nooks and crannies on the bank where these, you know, ostensibly apex predators live.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's one of the great things about fishing and really any hobby that people get really deep into is the fact that you never really stop learning. Obviously, you learn a lot more at the beginning. You're like soaking up so much information. At some point you start to kind of plateau. But even if it's just that one little thing that you pick up when you're out or even I listen to a lot of like fishing podcasts. And sometimes I listen to a whole episode and pick out one little thing that I want to try next time I go out. And that one little thing might make a difference for me. And at some point you get to that place where you are listening for those little nuggets, but especially with a guide, like those little things that you tweak, maybe just a little positioning in your cast or putting the fly just slightly differently positioned with the fish. Those little things can make a lot of difference, especially when they add up.
Joe
No, I couldn't agree more. And I certainly have a particular style on that river in particular, and the sections that we fish, because every time you go out, you have, I mean, we kind of consider a trophy smallmouth to be 20 to 20 plus inches. And there there's, if you do it right, there's opportunity on every trip to walk away with a trophy fish. And that's, you know, obviously you mitigate expectations. And if somebody says, you know, hey, I want to go out and catch 20 small guys. Yeah, let's go do that. you know you fish water different water a little bit differently but yeah there's there's nothing more exciting as a guide than a 20 inch smallmouth that all of a sudden just bulldogs you into current and you know takes an eight weight and bends it in half I mean I think pound for pound And a smallmouth is one of just the toughest fighting fish out there.
Katie
I would agree. I know a lot of people say that about a lot of different species, but in particular, I heard about carp a lot too.
Joe
Carp, yep.
Katie
But smallmouths in particular come to mind for me when I think of fish that you feel like you've got a monster on the line and it turns out to be 10 inches long just because they just pull so hard.
Joe
They really do. And they're smart fish. They're not always the brightest things when it comes to grabbing a fly, but once they do, you know, they're trying to bury under logs and rocks and break you off and use the current. And yeah, I mean, it's, I just think as far as freshwater is concerned, you know, bass and pike are definitely two of my favorite. And I have an obsession with carp, but I don't get to do it as much as I'd like. And that'll be something we probably expand into in the coming future.
Katie
So this might be a good time to kind of dive into smallmouth as a species, because that's what we're mostly talking about today. So I always, for all the species specific episodes, I really like to start with kind of like an overview of the smallmouth bass, like kind of as a profile about the fish. So tell me, tell me about the fish itself. Like you already kind of got into how it behaves, but just kind of talk about smallmouth behavior, their diet, where they like to hang out. Just kind of like apart from the fishing, just like what are smallmouth bass like for someone who maybe has never caught one or experienced one before?
Joe
Well, absolutely. Particularly on the Milwaukee River where we do all our guiding and I do most of my personal fishing, there's really three sets of species that they do eat. They eat bait fish, you know, they eat sculpin, and they eat crayfish. These are so abundant in this water system that you're using flies that mimic those particular species that they're into feeding on. And obviously top water is a lot of fun as well because frogs are big sources of protein that don't bite back, you know. But having said that, they are apex predators. They're ambush predators, you know. Oftentimes they hide themselves best they can to conserve energy as well as kind of let food come to them. So having said that, yeah, a lot of what we do is very casting intensive in the sense that I think a lot of my clients would begrudgingly never want to hear, all right, I need another foot. You know, it's like almost there, but like it's got to be on that rock, on that rock, right in that eddy. And yeah, they're ambush predators, no different than kind of snook are in the ocean. They tuck themselves away and are very opportunistic when they see something come by.
Katie
Now, I associate smallmouth bass mostly with moving water and generally with like a gravel bottom. But I also have a limited scope of experience with them. Like I fish them in a handful of rivers. Is that like generally the case for them? Or do you find them much in kind of the slower moving parts of the river, muddier bottoms, weedier areas? Do you notice a kind of a difference where they're hanging out?
Joe
Absolutely. And I think more than anything, they're always looking for that vantage point, right? You know, somewhere where they're not seen, they're not threatened. And then they come out from under a log out of nowhere and blast a fly. But what the real cool thing is, is that we see them look so different, predicated on age, what they've been eating, and the subsurface that they're camouflaging themselves to.
Katie
Okay, so tell me more. Is it like the coloration you mean?
Joe
Absolutely. You know, you may have one that's just, you know, maybe has a super sandy or murky bottom and they're bright green. And, you know, you may see them on a, you know, more rocky bottom with a lot of striations to kind of blend themselves in. They're very chameleon-like in that manner.
Katie
And how about kind of a yearly cycle for smallmouths? And this might transition us kind of toward more of the fishing side of it. But throughout the year, I like to go through, you know, starting in whatever season you think is best. Some people really prefer to start in one particular season for whatever reason. But throughout the year, how is the fishing going to change? And how are the fish going to be behaving at kind of four different seasons of the year?
Joe
Yeah, the way I kind of early spring, they do do their spawning. but because we cover such a, it's not like a lake where everything seems to happen almost on a calendar. It happens for different reasons at different times. And we definitely try to avoid beds in the spring, mating fish, because we definitely want this waterway that's so amazing to continue to thrive, that we don't want to be pulling fish off of their beds. But having said that, I think definitely spring and fall, they tend to be a little bit deeper, conserving energy. In the spring, we have a tendency to use much smaller flies that get down deep with sink tips and do something akin to that in the fall where you would use a sink tip, but with a much larger fly, because again, they're opportunistic. They know the winter's coming and they strapped on their feed bags looking for that last big snack. And then summertime, it's just game on with those fish. They're everywhere. I mean, from fast moving water to slack water to sitting in nothing, you know, just on a small undercut on somebody's bank, you know, and that's why I think casting such an important tool to have within your bag.
Katie
to hit the exact spot you're trying to get to.
Joe
Exactly. You know, I always say cast with purpose and cast fearlessly because I think a lot of people fall into that pattern of they're like, I'm with a guide. I don't want to lose their fly. I don't want to embarrass myself and hang it 40 feet up in a tree. And I'm like, no, we go get it. You know, it's not a big deal. Yeah. I think I only have one rule on the boat and it's, you're not allowed to say, I'm sorry. You know, if you're casting fearlessly, you're going to put some on the rocks and you're going to put some in the trees. But it's also going to be that type of fearless casting that allows you to make the shots that are required.
Katie
I might need to adopt that mantra for myself when I go out, just cast fearlessly and don't care if it gets stuck in stuff because, you know, it's hard because you want to get the fly where you're trying to get it. But when you're, sometimes the risk versus reward doesn't seem worth it, you know, when there's, when there's so much stuff there. But that also might depend on what you're fishing for. Can you find more fish around that aren't in that one spot? But I like that, that kind of just like do it. You can always go get the fly, especially if you're wading like small trout streams, like I am most of the time. Like, why do I care that much if I have to bust in there and grab it?
Joe
Walk across and go get your flies, you know, it's not a big deal. You go find some new water, you know, and the Milwaukee River is a substantially long, long river. We have a lot of sections that we're able to fish. And I'm never worried. You know, it definitely stings when you're like, we've caught a lot of big fish in this section and now we just blew it up.
Katie
Yeah.
Joe
But there's going to be a section 100 feet down the river that's equally as good and going to hold just as high quality of a fish.
Katie
I actually feel that way personally about smallmouth. The river I grew up fishing was a smallmouth fishery primarily. There were walleyes in there too. But I remember I would get bummed if I blew up a spot. I didn't catch a fish in a spot that I had historically thought was good. But then I'd always realize that, like you said, 100 feet downstream, there's another spot that I think of as being just as amazing. Like I realized that the river is basically just a chain of spots that I, in my mind, think of as being like really productive spots because I've caught either a big fish there or a lot of fish there. And so it's like really easy to get really excited again, almost like a dog looking at a squirrel where you're like, oh, no, we're going to the sex spot. Don't worry about it. You know, you're excited the whole time.
Joe
And I think one of the biggest things is people can get, I mean, definitely there's go-to spots where there's large holes or something like that, or big slack eddies where they're conserving energy and they have a lot of food. But those spots change with levels. I mean, we're not fishing a tailwater. I mean, one of the biggest challenges of what we do is that, yeah, for sure, you know, a spot might have been producing super well for a couple weeks, but the water level raises and it's, yeah, you can anchor up all day and not catch a thing. You know, it's a very, a very fluid thing. I remember two years ago, when I was kind of out on my own doing this, we had a very dry summer. So I got to see all my favorite stretches at their lowest possible water level. So I know where the logs are, are downed and you know I know where the rocks that won't move and the islands that won't move are and yeah it's it's something that as as a guide you're constantly thinking around the problem you know and I carry a lot of rods on the boat for that reason you know that you know hey this is going to be best with, you know, a floating line with this fly on it, you know, a bait fish pattern is going to do best here, but we're going to have to get a sculpin pattern over here with a sink tip line because it's much, much deeper. And one of the kind of things I've always spoken about is meeting these fish where they're at. I think that, of course, you can go out with a, you know, shooting line and have it be floating and you're going to have success, but it's not really until you start putting together all the pieces of the puzzle, that, you know, today we've got to use a Versa leader or today we've got to use a sync tip line. Um, so yeah, it's, that's what makes it really fun for me, is going like, all right, we made this change and boom, they're there. and that's a lot of fun. And yeah, I don't know. I may seem pretty mellow, but I get very excited when people catch fish. I'm the loudest one out there.
Katie
Tell me more about that thought process of you're approaching the river for the day. And I know you know this river really well. So you probably have things that you know like is your go-to. But for someone who is maybe just getting into smallmouth fishing or fishing a new river for them, walk me through your thought process of picking a fly and maybe like a line and leader setup based on like what you're seeing that day, water levels, the type of structure you're fishing, the time of year it is. How would someone go about deciding, okay, the best chance for catching a smallie right now is for me to use so-and-so setup? How would you go through that thought process?
Joe
Yeah. And I think that, you know, I see a lot of the trout guys, they're constantly switching out flies. And oftentimes, I feel as if pattern is almost irrelevant, in a way. It's depth and movement. You know, that's really what they're, I feel as if they're responding to the most. So I think a lot of people will switch, you know, maybe a neutrally buoyant fly for a neutrally buoyant fly when they're not having success. Well, that's the first mistake, you know, like you switch a neutrally buoyant fly to a subsurface fly or a popper or something else that's varying the depth at which you're fishing. And, yeah, you've got to meet these fish where they are because they're very opportunistic when it comes to eating the fly. They're very friendly to the fly. And having said that, you still have to meet them where they are. You know, I mean, if if the water is roaring at 800 to 1000 CFS, you've got to be using sink tip lines, you know, to get that fly down enough to meet these fish where they are. And just, you know, on the counterside of that, when the water gets low. Yeah, I think. And so much of it has just come from experimentation. in that first couple years that I took off just to fish and get to know these local waters.
Katie
So how often are you using a sink tip versus a floating line?
Joe
Almost all summer, we're using floating lines exclusively. It's really early season and particularly the fall, when you're using, you know, maybe something like really small Bufords or something deer hair, very neutrally buoyant that you need to get down to push water, really grab their attention. And yeah, and again, I think depth and size of fly are a good reason to change flies. But I think it's not like your trout box where, you know, you've got to have every fly under the sun. What they eat here is really consistent. And if you kind of stay within that realm of bait fish, sculpin and crayfish, you also have to consider that all of them swim at different levels. you know most of your sculpin and crayfish are going to be very close to the bottom they're going to have lead eyes or some type of weight to them and then your more neutrally buoyant flies are kind of your bait fish pattern because if you sit on an island for a few hours and just watch bait fish they're all pretty close to the surface yeah and so and then poppers they're just fun because yeah I mean it's when when I do get the opportunity to trout fish I really love fishing dry flies you know because it's such a it's a timing thing it's a presentation thing. Um, and I really appreciate that about trout fishing. Um, and poppers are a little bit like that, you know, you trout set too early and you just, you move that thing 14 feet from that fish and it's out of the game, you know? And, yeah. And I would say that was one of the big, learning curves is that strip set, you know, of utilizing a strip set. Because if you think about taking that left hand and strip setting, you're moving that fly a foot and a half, two feet from that fish if it doesn't eat. You know, if it just nips at the tail, you're still in the game. But if you trout set and raise a nine foot rod, you know, you're ostensibly moving that, that fly 15 feet away from that fish and it lost interest.
Katie
Yeah.
Joe
You know, so, and that, and that's definitely one of the things that, you know, is one of those critical learning curves, you know, because I think a lot of people associate fly fishing with trout, you know, and it's this trout set, raise the rod, get all the slack out of the line. And there's a time and place for that in bass fishing. But I think that a solid strip set is much more effective as far as hookup ratio goes.
Katie
Now, how are you like, how are you working to fly when it's in the water? Because my experience with smallmouth bass has primarily been unconventional gear and my experience with that would be you know casting out a lure reeling it back in and the smallmouths would basically hook themselves at that point and how like does that happen very often on a fly rod and if so does it depend on whether you're like pretty aggressively stripping that fly back in and you know stripping a fly back in is essentially strip setting over and over and over again so I feel like if you timed it right it would basically hook the fish but like how often do fish kind of hook themselves because of how you're working the fly or how else do you work flies that do require more of that deliberate strip set?
Joe
Yeah, I certainly don't want to steal anybody else's words, but Kelly Galloup talked about thinking more about swimming that fly and swimming it appropriate to what fly you're casting, you know, as opposed to just blindly strip strip strip strip you know you know that conventional fishing you're right you know it's this you know you reel it back in and they they they either kind of go for it or they don't but again I think I tend to use a little bit longer of a strip when it comes to bait fish patterns and a little bit faster of a strip because, you know, while I'm re-rigging or sitting on an Island, I'm watching them and watching what they do. Um, same thing with the sculpin and the crayfish, you know, a crayfish may be pop, pop, pause, pop, pop, pause. And I'm somebody that, you know, I think maybe even clients get frustrated with cause they're like, wow, you haven't switched flies at all. And I'm like, no, you change up everything before you get rid of that fly. You change up the speed at which you're retrieving, the cadence at which you're retrieving that fly. And if you really think about utilizing that left hand as you're stripping for a right-handed fly angler, if you think about it as I'm swimming this bait fish or I'm swimming this crayfish, you're going to have a ton more success. Um, you know, if you're just burning a crayfish pattern on, on the top of the surface, they're going to be like, Oh, that's cute. You know, like, you know, and, and generally, you know, as far as your, your tackle goes, Um, we're generally using seven and eight weights and I even prefer a saltwater, eight weight, because it does have a bit more backbone that allows you to cut through wind and make those more precise shots. Um, and I mean, these, these fish are no joke. I mean, they really will put a bend in a saltwater eight weight and, they'll have it buckled over, you know?
Katie
One more question about the sink tip versus floating line. You mentioned you use floating lines throughout most of the summer, but you also talked about how it kind of, you're going to cater that to what you're fishing that day. You know, say you're fishing kind of a neutrally buoyant bait fish pattern. That seems like it would lend itself better to a floating line than something that you want to keep on the bottom the whole time. So how is it like both seasonally affected and fly pattern related? Like, are you kind of changing which pattern you're using based on the season? Or is there a different reason that you're using floating lines more in the summer and transitioning to a sink tip, like later in the season?
Joe
Yeah. Generally in the summer, you're going to have lower water to begin with. Those fish are post-spawn, very active. They're looking to feed. So I think floating lines are most appropriate. And I really recommend sink tips as opposed to full sinking lines because of control. You can mend a sink tip, you know, where it's sinking section is 18 to 15 feet long. You can still mend that and have control as to where you're swimming that fly. And again, I'm just a firm believer in changing everything before you change the fly. and but and and and a lot of it has to do with just matching the water levels you know if we're fishing you know a very steep steep drop off yeah for sure the fish are going to hold right on that edge and you've got to put it you know right on those rocks let it drop and then hopefully you get a chase. And that's one of the things that we do notice is that spring and fall, they bite immediately. They make that decision quickly. Whereas in summertime, they're just having fun. You know, they're going, I'm going to chase this around and I'll nip at it. And I'm going to go back to where I was and cast again and try one more time. You know?
Katie
So you're on a boat. So I assume that you're carrying multiple rods on every trip. What would you recommend for somebody who is a weight angler and is not looking to carry more than one rod? Like they're going out for the day. Like, is there kind of a kind of how the nine foot five weight is the all around rod for trout? Like that's going to handle most things for trout. What is the equivalent of that for smallmouth fishing? If like a whole setup, they've got a certain weight rod with a certain line on it. And we don't need to worry about fly because you've kind of expressed that you don't think fly pattern matters as much. And it sounds like there's like a handful of different patterns that people might choose from. But gear-wise, what would you say is kind of the all-around, like you want one smallmouth setup for the day and you're going to be on foot? What would you take for that?
Joe
I would really, depending on where they are located geographically, if you get a lot of wind, I would lean more towards an eight weight just because it does have a little bit more backbone. But I think, you know, primarily a solid seven weight, oftentimes in a saltwater series of, you know, whether it be any of the manufacturers, they'll have freshwater and saltwater. I just prefer saltwater. It'll also carry a heavier line because a lot of these bass bug lines, say for an eight weight, are almost 280 grains. And you need to have a stick that's not going to buckle with something like that. And I generally, yeah, generally use anywhere between 12 and 10 pound mono leaders, tapered mono leaders that can be a little bit shorter than your, you know, general nine foot leader. That's kind of stock standard for trout fishing. I like them right around seven to eight feet and have played around with building my own leaders. But one of the advantages to a bass leader is its butt section. So where it connects loop to loop, that section is much, much thicker and more akin to an extension of your fly line, making it much easier to get a proper turnover, on these larger flies that we, we tend to use. And, yeah, I mean, without a doubt you can go out with a, you know, size four woolly bugger and just, you know, really beat up on, on bass. But I have found that some of, the bigger fish that, that I tend to target and like to target with a lot of the clients respond to a little bit bigger of a fly. So having a proper leaders is really critical. I mean, almost, you know, to like a 40 pound butt section. Okay. You know, you want something, you know, stout that's going to turn over these larger flies.
Katie
Now, what, what size flies would you recommend? Kind of, I'll give you two situations here for the person who wants to go out and catch a bunch of smallmouths. Like they don't care how big they are. They just want to go out and have a high fish number day. And then the person who kind of wants to weed out some of the smaller fish and kind of target those more trophy smallmouths, what rough like size ranges of flies do you tend to throw for each of those things?
Joe
Yeah. I mean, it can really, it really can depend on, you know, I, as I mentioned, you know, in the spring we tend to use smaller flies but if somebody wanted to go out and just beat up on them I mean an inch and a half to two inch woolly bugger yeah you're gonna go out and have success you know we tend to throw you know the three to four inch flies that have a little bit more profile to them, push a little bit more water. Um, I've been playing a lot with, some new patterns, on the vice this winter that I'm really excited about trying out, that do exactly, do exactly that. Um, but yeah, it doesn't need to be a huge fly. You know, if you want to go out and bang away at, you know, a whole bunch of bass between eight and 12 inches. Yeah, man, just pick yourself up a bunch of woolly buggers, a couple in olive, a couple in black, a couple in white, you know, and you're going to be beyond set. But, you know, I think I'm more likely to tie on in that case to weed out some of the smaller ones not that they won't go after a big fly I mean it's remarkable I mean I remember musky fishing and we had a 20 inch bass go after like a 12 inch Buford you know I mean just this big musky fly and yeah they're they're not afraid of bigger flies but I think that that three to four inch length total is is what you'd be aiming for as far as getting into those larger fish
Katie
okay and color wise I know you mentioned kind of the olive black that kind of like kind of color palette I guess but are you are you choosing your color based on like the water quality or the weather or anything like that but do you have any recommendations on matching the color to the conditions you're fishing?
Joe
Yeah. I have a tendency to throw the bright stuff at them when the sun is out and the water's a little clear. The retrieve is generally a little bit faster because they can really see that fly and you don't want to give them too much time to go, hey, man, that's not real. but having said that when the water gets high and murky I really do like olives browns sculpany color and blacks because what they're looking for is profile and as they're with any of these predatory fish they're looking up they're very rarely looking down for food sources Um, so having said that, yeah, on cloudy days, overcast days where the water may have rained two days before and it's a little murky. Um, yeah, I, I prefer bigger, darker colors because, and something that pushes water, you know, whether it be like a wool sculpin type head or a deer hair type head, that really moves water.
Katie
Okay. Well, is there, is there anything that you think we should have covered on smallmouths outside of like what I've asked, just something that would be good for someone to know if they're going out and trying this for the first time, that would be kind of like a good overall tip for them to take, take home?
Joe
Yeah. You know, I think the biggest thing is practicing your cast. Okay. To be perfectly honest, I'm in one of the absolute best casters I know, and he's a guide that I use, John Lee, his cat. Yeah. I'd give my left pinky toe to cast like he does, you know, but having said that he's also the guy that's just out practicing casting, you know, and it doesn't take much. You just want to make sure that you have a leader on the end of your fly line. So you don't blow out your welded loop. Um, maybe a little piece of yarn so you can see how things are laying out, but it doesn't take, you know, and it doesn't mean that you're out there for an hour practicing casting. Um, it's something that, yeah, that is just so critical that if you spend, you know, five, 10 minutes once or twice a week, just to keep that loop tight, it makes, makes a world of difference, you know, because it is very much streamer fishing is very casting intensive. You know, it's not lobbing a nymph rig upstream and letting it, you know, mend and mend and mend and come downstream. It's something where I tend not to get bored doing. And I think maybe that was the big appeal of streamer fishing and bass fishing in general, is that it's just so dynamic. There's a million things you can change. You know, as we spoke, you know, it can be that speed of retrieve, the cadence of retrieve, how long those strips are. And oftentimes what kind of movement you get on the pause, you know, because oftentimes they like when you pause and you've got a whole bunch of lead eye on there and it just turns, you know, straight down and they go, that's a wounded bait fish and bang, you know, it happens. But having said that, I've also done that with like foam headed flies on sink tip lines where on the paws, it actually raises. Oh, okay. You know, so I've just found that they're very much into movement as opposed to going, hey man, that looks exactly like a big fish. Good tie.
Katie
I think we've all learned that a lot of patterns don't actually look like much at all. Like, especially in the trout world, like you've got a lot of stuff that you have. Sometimes you feel like trout really are looking at that fly and saying, well, that's a, you know, such and such genus and species mayfly because sometimes they are that picky. And then a lot of times they're just not like they don't care. It's purple. Like when was the last time you saw a purple mayfly, but they love it.
Joe
You know, there's some… Perdigons. I mean, why does a perdigon work? Because it meets those fish where they are. It doesn't matter how silly it looks. And, you know, but oh, man, those will just you'll beat up on fish with a with a fly like that. But again, I think it goes back to, you know, think around the problem and meet those fish where they are.
Katie
Awesome. Well, where can people find you if they want to either reach out to you online or maybe book a trip with you or whatever? Where can they find you online?
Joe
Yeah, absolutely. We have a website. It is www.flyfishmke.com. That'll bring you to our website and you can get to know the guides that we have working for us and kind of the costs and programs that we run. Um, and, also on Instagram, Milwaukee, Milwaukee fly fishing, Milwaukee river fly fishing. I'm sorry. All underscored, between each, word. And, you can find if you're, if you really want to waste some time, you can, find me at, Tilted 3.0 at Instagram. I try to post as regularly as I can, but yeah, I'm kind of lazy with my own stuff.
Katie
Now, is that all fishing or is it fishing, skiing and everything else, all the other 40 hobbies you do?
Joe
Oh, yeah. You go back far enough, you'll see some skiing and mountain biking and whatnot. But yeah, the fly fishing thing's definitely grayed out a lot of other areas of my life and yeah, I love it for it.
Katie
Yeah, it'll do that, won't it?
Joe
Yeah, absolutely.
Katie
Well, Joe, thank you for coming on and talking to me today. I got to say you've like maybe missed smallmouths. I don't get to fish for much out here in Colorado. I grew up in Pennsylvania where that's like the main thing that I fish for. And just like thinking back on them, there's such a fun species to catch. And I hope if someone hasn't gotten a chance to fish for them before, they go give it a try because they really are just a ball.
Joe
Oh, absolutely. You know, even with some of the diehard trout guys that we have had on the boats before, they come out with a new appreciation for this warm water species. The take is awesome. They fight like crazy. Yeah, and they're just good fun. And you can go out and catch a bunch of them if you give yourself a bit of an education beforehand.
Katie
Well, hopefully this episode will provide that for somebody and inspire them to get out. but once again thank you I had a great time talking to you and hopefully you don't have too bad of a winter coming your way up there in Wisconsin
Joe
yeah no doubt ironically we have open water now so I was out pike fishing today and
Katie
yeah take it while you can. awesome well I will talk to you soon and once again thank you so much. all right that's a wrap thank you all for listening if you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes you can find those on fishuntamed.com you'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me and you can also find me on instagram at fish untamed if you want to support the show you can give it a follow on apple podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and if you'd like to leave a review it would be greatly appreciated but otherwise thank you all again for listening I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode take care everybody
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.