Ep 99: Grand Teton Fly Fishing and Sustainability, with Scott Smith
Scott Smith is the managing owner and guide at Grand Teton Fly Fishing. In this episode, we talk about his local trout species, why cutthroats are such special fish, what the fishing is like around Jackson, what makes a good guide, and Scott’s vision for a more sustainable future in fly fishing.
Scott’s Instagram: @ssflyfish
Grand Teton Fly Fishing Instagram: @grandtetonflyfishing
Website: grandtetonflyfishing.com
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 99 with Scott Smith on Grand Teton fly fishing and sustainability. I always like to start episodes with getting a background on my guests and how they've gotten into fishing in the outdoors. So I'd love to just hear kind of a rundown of how how you got your start in fly fishing.
Scott
Well, I am originally from north of Atlanta area. So outside of like Marietta and I grew up fishing the Chattahoochee river, you know, growing up in the South, I was, you know, bass obviously was, like all my friends and our dads, we were all really big into bass boats and it's like the 60 miles an hour to the, to the spot didn't really suit me. And I was lucky enough, I got to go fish with my dad and my uncles in the mountains. And, you know, you can start wading through a creek. It was just an intimacy to the wet wading the rivers in North Georgia that kind of, I don't know, just spoke to me. And at a young age, I can't really remember, I think I was about 11 when I first picked up a fly rod. I think I was looking at like sports a field or something. And I'm a lot older than you, mind you. So this was in the eighties. So in, in that time, I remember reading about the Bighorn river out, out here in Montana and all these, the Madison, those were, those were the big watersheds to, to dream about. But, you know, North Georgia was a great place to, because I had all the warm water species. I had, you know, the, the trout streams and then in the eighties, the, a lot of Atlanta area had not advanced up in that area yet. So, there was still a lot of uncrowded rivers. Um, but my background fly fishing since I was about 11, I pretty much himself taught. Um, I think by about 18, I started figuring it out and it was something about it. I don't know. I think it's the cast. It's the presentation. The flow of the cast is one thing that I always am drawn to. I think that's where it began. I've always loved fishing. I still spin fish. Like I was telling you earlier, I ice fish today. I love getting out and fishing. I'm sure we'll talk about all kinds of stuff, but the thing that is just getting out. I'm a big guy to get outside. Hashtag get outside. Because it just feels good. It's healthy. I probably hiked four miles today on the ice total round trip. And it just feels good. Now I've deserved the beer I have right here.
Katie
Absolutely. So when you were in Georgia, did you get a chance to go up and fish some of those brook trout streams up in the mountains?
Scott
I did. You had to go pretty far up into the, you know, in the higher country and those remote streams. I can't say that I was very successful. I've caught lots of brook trout in the Georgia area, but I'm pretty sure a lot of those were stock fish at the time. They weren't, I don't think I ever caught the little natives up, up high in the drainage. And I'll have to put that on my bucket list to go back. But, you know, obviously around here, one of the, I do love the idea and the story of a native trout. That's, we have a lot of that in this, in the Jackson area. So the native trout stories are really special, you know, feature to this water, this area and this, this region here.
Katie
What's your native cutthroat subspecies in the Jackson area?
Scott
It's the Snake River fine spotted cutthroat. I mean, and it is, you're right, a subspecies of the, It's a subspecies of the Yellowstone cutthroat. In the Jackson Hole area, this upper watershed, the upper Snake River watershed is one of the last great native trout cold water species in this country. I mean, you've got the Yellowstone cutthroat. What's going on up in Yellowstone, that's pretty remarkable. I mean, on Yellowstone Lake, those native fish up there are some of my favorite places to be in the whole world. So down here in Jackson, the Snake River Fine Spotted Cutthroat is, it's very, I think the drainage is very healthy. And I think it might be even on an incline, like the health in the water. You know, the water regime regulation has been better since the early 2000s, despite we are in a drought right now. And the lake, the Jackson Lake area is very low, but fingers crossed the big snowpack continues and we'll be able to fill that lake back up. But there's a very healthy population of native fish in this area as well.
Katie
Do you find that your clientele is generally pretty excited about catching native species, or do they gravitate more toward the browns and rainbows when they come to fish with you?
Scott
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think most of them, once you allude them to the story and kind of give them a background, they do appreciate it. And they're like, oh, I didn't know. You know, a lot of people, you'll say, oh, these are native fish. And they're like, they just kind of think, well, okay, they're wild.
Katie
They live here, yeah.
Scott
Yeah, there's a difference between wild and native. They are wild, but they're also native. So when you take the time to share that story and kind of explain it to people, I think it does speak to them. And, you know, it's real important. That's a big part of coming to this area and our obligation as being a concessionaire in the Grand Teton National Park is to share that story and to create that awareness and that appreciation and a connection to the resource.
Katie
Yeah, I think I tend to gravitate toward our native cutthroats too, even though I wouldn't say that they're necessarily the most fun to catch if you're just talking about like the take and the fight. Like, I mean, people love brown trout for a reason, but there's just something almost like magical or mystical about them. They live in such beautiful places, especially compared to, you know, like our rainbows. I can drive 10 minutes from home and catch a rainbow. And it just doesn't have the same allure as, you know, getting up in the mountains and chasing the natives.
Scott
Yeah. And you have the greenbacks, right?
Katie
We do, but there aren't many places that the pure greenbacks exist because they, it's a long story and I'm not even super well-versed in it, but they thought they had greenback genetics and then they found out that that wasn't the case. So they have since found pure genetics and they are restocking them, but there's a handful of is maybe under 10 that have the pure strain. But we've got a lot of, we've got Colorado river cutthroats and lots of kind of hybrid. I don't know if anyone really knows what they are, especially an angler who's just looking at them. But yeah, we've got a handful, Rio Grandes too.
Scott
Yeah, just south of Jackson is the Colorado cutthroat and the native, you know, up in the upper green system is, I'm pretty sure those fish were native there. But they've since went away, but have been reintroduced in small. You know, every once in a while you'll catch a cutty down there. And I'll be like, I think this is Colorado. There's also Bonnevilles or Bear River cutthroats. So you're right. There's kind of a mutt. You know, cutthroats will begin to mix. And, you know, there's still a wonderful fish. I mean, it's been brought to my attention that some people really think that the cutthroat is not worthy. Even some of my clients, maybe, and I probably shouldn't go too far down this road because that could be troublesome. But it's disappointing when people will say disparaging things about the cutthroat. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Tell me where have you fished. Tell me what kind of fish you've caught. And it's typically a stock fish. And I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Our fish are pretty darn feisty. I mean, they fight really well. They're similar to brown. But what I tell people is how they will tend to look towards the surface more than any fish in the region 10 months out of the year. I mean, right now, between pretty much December, January, and well, not even February, but for most of the months of the year, you can catch fish here on dry flies outside of the runoff or maybe the coldest days in January. But so they certainly look at the surface. I think that's just from how they evolved. These drainages went from super high flows in the spring. This is before dams were created. Just think back a couple hundred years ago when the Native Americans were here. There was huge, huge flows in the spring. The cutthroats had to endure that. And then as the summer progressed, all these watersheds were in a drought period or dry seasons were very, very slow. And so the fish, there were less insects. There were probably a lot more terrestrials. These fish eat a lot of hoppers. And on the Snake River, actually, there's tons of stoneflies. So most of the biomass that they're looking at is often midges or stoneflies. So they're looking at the surface a lot. And terrestrials, beetles. I mean, you know, give me an ant or beetle any day around here and that'll catch all the fish. You don't need a massive hatch. And on top of that, our fish really respond to attractors. So the foam flies. Sometimes, you know, you're from Colorado, you think a size 16 is big. Around here, we fish lots of fours, sixes, and eights. Maybe not fours, but I know guides who like that. And it's just really fascinating. So when people, when they learn, oh, all right, we're going to fish size eight dry flies today, not an 18. You know, that changes their attitude a little bit.
Katie
To be fair, I do like I know exactly what you're referring to when you talk about Colorado viewing 16 as big because I feel like a lot of the popular tailwaters, you know, you do hear about those size size 20 such and such. I find that when you get up into the high country, especially chasing cutthroats and often like brook trout in small streams, that's not the case. I feel like there's almost like two different versions of of what people fish out here. And it's the tailwater you're fishing midges for big browns and rainbows. And then the high alpine brook and cutthroat water where you're throwing, you know, maybe a size 12 hopper and having these little tiny fish come up and nail them on the surface. And that's kind of like where my bread and butter, I would say. But I wanted to ask, are your cutthroats, like when you're fishing for them, are they down in the larger rivers? Or are you generally going to the high alpine, smaller streams and alpine lakes?
Scott
more we're this area here is really known for drift boat fishing so we're float fishing the big the main stem of the snake I mean in Jackson the snake river is considered the headwaters but it's still a fairly large river I mean we're running at peak summer flows typically about 3,000 CFS out of the dam. Uh, it, it is, it, the river tends to be, it's kind of a free stone. Um, in reality, it is a tail water, for the first like four or five miles. It has a tail water influence cause it is below a dam, but it's not like a deep, the, the, where they draw the water, it's only 40 feet deep. So it's not like it's a 200 feet and you get this really, really cold water resource coming through. The main influence is the tributaries that come in just a few miles downstream. So that gives it more of a freestone character, I would say. But yeah, we're catching cutthroats on the main stem. I mean, that's where we're primarily floating. You can walk the tribs. You can't float the tribs, but you can walk them and they're fantastic. And the fish tend to migrate up and down just depending on the time of the year. So there is movement.
Katie
And what all species do you have in that main stem?
Scott
The Snake River Find Spot. There's also a pretty good population of brown trout. There's mountain whitefish. That's also a native fish. And that's a whole other subject. Boy, the whitefish, I think they're a great little fish.
Katie
Oh, I do too. I love them.
Scott
Yeah. I mean, it's good practice. Get your timing out.
Katie
And they fight real hard.
Scott
Yeah, they're not a bad fish. So, but yeah, mostly cutties, whitefish and brownies and lake, there's lake trout in the river too. They, they come out of the, they come out of the lake. So, and they, I don't, my personal feeling is the lake trout and the snake don't thrive that well. I don't think the Lakers are, are really designed to be in a river system, especially a faster flowing river. They do okay. you'll catch a few up in the slow water in the deep holes, but the fishing game don't tend to feel like they're a major threat. I think when they can, they would prefer, or when people catch them, they probably prefer they remove them, but it's not like a significant threat like it was in Yellowstone a few years back. That was a different situation. What did they end up doing about that?
Katie
Because I remember hearing about it. Was there any sort of actual effort to remove them? Or was it more of an angler request to keep them?
Scott
Yeah, how that all kind of transpired. And so far, I mean, yes, they started gill netting. I mean, it had to be 2013-ish or so. Everybody was going crazy. And it was like, yeah, and you go up there, it was very evident. It was you would catch or maybe not even see fish. So I think I quit guiding up there because I love Yellowstone Lake. I stopped for about four or five years. It just wasn't worth it anymore. And then, you know, you hear the progress. You kept getting, you know, the updates on the progress from the gill netting and they were being very successful. And then you would hear about through the film tour or something. And some people were up in the thoroughfare region watching the fish begin to spawn again. And, you know, and it's just like clockwork. The numbers really shot up. And it's been a wonderful thing. I mean, I've been guiding on Yellowstone Lake again since, oh, probably 2018 with really good success. And it's just a wonderful fishery. But those fish, you know, I know we've talked in and out of about how their character, that's a good fighting fish. I wouldn't say it's the absolute best, but what they are is incredible eaters on the surface and in the water column. Visually, the way they eat is exciting. And they'll get up shallow for several, a couple of months of the summer. And the sight fishing, they're large, let's be honest. I mean, who doesn't like a two foot fish? Yeah. I mean, these fish get big and it's really exciting. I mean, it's, you know, the fight is most, I kind of say it sometimes this may be hopefully not off color. I don't think so, but it's like people, you know, some fish are very athletic and others are just kind of ho-hum and roll on in. So hopefully you get that athletic. Have you ever had a chance to fish up there?
Katie
I haven't. No. I'm trying to think of the closest I've been. I've fished Montana, but I haven't fished the Jackson area. So I've done the Gallatin. I've done the Blackfoot. What else have I done up there? Oh, the Madison. I've done the Madison. But that's the extent, really, of my fishing up north.
Scott
Yeah. Well, it's a great region, and I haven't done a ton down in your neck of the woods, so we'll have to trade up sometime. I hear great stories of like the Arkansas or the, you know, certain reaches and the Southern Colorado drainages or the Rio Grande maybe that are just, they sound really interesting.
Katie
So we have a lot of, a lot of watersheds, which is nice. Like a lot of kind of main stem rivers coming out. I tend to focus my time a little more up in the mountains themselves just because I like that style of fishing. I like Alpine lakes. I like, I like not seeing people. And so that's the way to do it. But yeah, we do have like no shortage of kind of like larger rivers too that are really nice. And if you get out of the main handful that are within a couple hours of Denver, I think they're still not terribly crowded. I think Colorado has a reputation of being super crowded and parts of it are, but it's not terribly hard to find some space.
Scott
Yeah. And I don't know. The boat fishing is, I mean, that's the big thing here. I don't know. A lot of your drainage is maybe short, steep, or smaller, not big enough to float. But I know you have plenty of float rivers there. But here, it's like, I mean, that's the main way to get on some of these streams, the big rivers at least. I mean, we're floating 10,000 to 15,000 CFS at times on the South Fork of the Snake or some of those bigger rivers in eastern Idaho. I mean, a boat is an incredible tool to, you know, not only you're sharing that fishing experience with whether it's your clients or your friends or family, it's almost, it's a social, you know, you just don't get in a drift boat by yourself and go fish. Some people do, but generally there's spots for three people and you want to feel that. It's a social, it's really social. And what you said a moment ago about being away from people, that's huge. You know, for me, I don't think fish really like people. So getting away from people and going to the rivers or drainages that are less pressured is, I mean, I'll seek that out. I'll go an hour out of my way to find that personally. But you can't do that every day. So fortunately, the heavily fished rivers still provide, I mean, they're fantastic. You just have to approach all every place with its own, you know, you know, set of characteristics and just embrace it. So it's it's if it's a crowded day, you have to like, all right, I know what we're in for. Let's just kick back. We're going to throw dry flies. We're going to fish behind each other or maybe fish the opposite bank. Just kind of avoid, you know, go see what you can learn and, you know, try new techniques. It's fishing. We're just lucky to be out there is the way I always look at it.
Katie
Oh, absolutely. And I will say there's something to the skills you get from fishing heavily pressured water too. I mean, I love going out and not seeing a single soul, but usually I'm not challenged that much when I do that. If I'm going fishing fish that haven't seen a fly in the last month, it's not terribly hard to get them to take pretty much anything I throw in the water. And so you learn something every time you go out, but I often don't learn much on those days. It's just pure fun. And so to go out on some of the more pressured water, it might be tougher to get a fish. But when you do, I feel like there's a kind of a, you know, there's lessons learned in that. Absolutely. And there's work you have to put in.
Scott
Yeah. Well, you're, you know, 100% accurate there. I mean, and it's humbling. I mean, let's just be honest. I mean, this time in the 21st century, fishing can be very humbling. A lot of people, it's funny, they'll hire a guide and they're like, you know, I've had people say, I've been fishing here for a week and haven't caught a fish. And then, you know, we get in the boat and they're just doubling up or something. I'm like, well, it's not me. It's just, you know, you were putting your fly probably, you just need to be fine tuned. You weren't putting it in the right spot. You guys are doing great. So, yeah, it is, it's fun. I like tough rivers. I mean, I like a fish that I feel like I can't, it's going to be difficult to catch. But I also really enjoy getting away from people. I like lower sections of rivers, the lower drainages or the lower sections of a drainage is often there's lower fish counts. But there's the potential for a trophy is there. So that's kind of fun.
Katie
I think it's fun to kind of vary what you do, too. I mean, everyone's got their preferred thing that they do. You know, for me, it's high alpine stuff for you. You know, you've got drift boats and stuff that I don't really have as much access to here. But I feel like it's not only fun, but also just good for your learning and your experience to really branch out and try all kinds of different situations. Like put yourself in different situations, try to catch different species in different types of water. It keeps it fun and exciting, like not repeating the same thing over and over again.
Scott
Yeah, I think that's one thing about fly fishing that it's always taught me and that I'll try and never take it for granted, but there's no day that's ever the same. I could fish these rivers, and I have, every day or whatever, month of July, but no day is ever the same. There's always some factor that's out of whack or something you have to adapt to. And I love that, whether it's the water flow, the water temperature, the bugs aren't happening, or there's too many bugs or whatever it might be. It's never the same. And you have to always be thinking. It's a very cerebral kind of, I mean, you know, fly fishing to me is very cerebral and not just an activity. It's very cleansing and, you know, therapeutic.
Katie
This has come up many times on this show, just the focus that it takes, especially in a place where the fish are a little bit tougher to catch. It's like you can't be thinking about whatever you've got going on at home or the stress from work or anything like that. You have to be 100% there or it's not going to work, which is really nice.
Scott
That's why people, it is. That's why people love it. And when they, you know, as a guide, I appreciate that because you were, I may not be the best of them, but you're kind of a psychologist. You really can help people get lost and kind of forget some of their challenges at home or wherever. And it's a wonderful thing. I mean, to be able to just, yeah, time flies by when I'm on the river. Like it's, oh my God, it's already three o'clock. we got to start moving along here. We're 10 miles behind or whatever it might be. And yeah, it's amazing how time flies and everything is, all your concerns are kind of erased. You're focused on that fly or reading the water. That's one of my favorite things is just reading water.
Katie
When do you think, can you put your finger on when reading water kind of clicked for you? Because that's something I noticed a lot in newer anglers. And I'm sure you have experienced this working with beginners that it's hard sometimes to describe reading water. Like you can point at a pool and say that one's good because it's behind a rock and there's a slower eddy with some moving water. You can kind of describe it. But at the end of the day, there's something that kind of I think just clicks when you've done it enough times where you can look at water and you can kind of visualize where a fish would sit. And it's not as easy as just logistically describing all the features. Do you remember when that kind of clicked for you? Do you see that click in newer anglers when they're learning to read water?
Scott
I know what you mean. I think it comes with spending a lot of time or being very intimate with a river, knowing its characters and things change throughout the seasons. Because everyone, or not everyone, but a lot of people have read the Curtis Creek Manifesto. It says, put your fly right behind the rock. And those are all true. Fish do like sitting behind rocks, but they also like sitting in front of the rocks. And that's black water off. Everyone wants to fish the heavy bank. And we call them boogie banks. I can't stand fast water. But that depends on where you are and maybe the time of year and the water temperature. If the water around our parts, if the water is warm, like in August, we get pretty warm water. I'll fish in that heavy, really heavy seam. But in March, April, you look for the slowest water you can find. I think rainbows, and I think a lot of fish react a similar way, but every river has its own characteristic. And as far as reading it, when did it click for me? I think it's just a time, quick time is like, wait a minute, I caught it. It's like the best anglers have photographic memory. you you remember I caught a fish right there in 1995 and it's it's eight years later and by god there's still a fish in a similar log or and you you just remember you remember where you catch them you remember what the water looked like you remember all the the the you know the environmental factors that might affect it and and and all of a sudden it just starts painting a picture and I think you you get a second sense for reading water and you're often wrong obviously you know you're not catching fish every cast or every you know every good spot but you're reading the water if if there's one thing I can teach people on a guide trip that's you know you got to be able to deliver the fly so the cast obviously is a big deal but like all right read the water as I'm reading it because by the time I point it out to you, it may be too late. Because we're talking about being in a drift boat. As the boat's moving, a lot of people tend to fish parallel from a drift boat. And often you need to be out in front of the boat. So if they're not seeing that water where I want that fly placement in time, it's often too late because I can't back row hard enough to slow the boat down and give them another shot.
Katie
one nice thing about reading water that I think like it is one of the most important aspects obviously but it translates from other styles of fishing too like there's a lot of things you know people are they're new to fly fishing but if a fish with a spin rod or a baitcaster anything like that before there's a lot of things to learn new and one thing you don't necessarily is reading water if you fish for trout before or whatever species you're targeting that's universal like just knowing where fish are and what they might be doing if they're sitting there I think that's often overlooked when someone's getting started is like you might already have like more than 50 percent of what you need to go out and catch a fish you just now need to be able to pick a fly and know how to get it to the right spot but you're not starting from scratch and honestly that's probably the most important part is is understanding where a fish is going to be and why and like what is it going to do when it's sitting there
Scott
yeah yeah I mean the best guides, that's what you learn to teach that like all right let's what are all the factors right now water temperature what's the flows been? I mean I'm on the internet most mornings before a guide trip checking flows just it's kind of like I it's I wish it was a stock market I get paid a lot more but it's not the stock market but you're you're looking at river flows and it's like, all right, that may be off. I want to, all right, no, let's not go there. Okay, all right, I think we'll do this. This is looking good and it's coming down or, you know, it just depends. And that goes back to what we were talking about or there's so many variables and it's never the same. That's why we love it. You just never know. That's why it's, I mean, I hate to say it. It's why it's called fishing.
Katie
Someone had to say it.
Scott
Someone had to say it. I bet that comes out every podcast you do.
Katie
Not every podcast. I'm sure it's come out before, but it's true, though. I mean, it's funny, and people always laugh about it when they say it, but it's true. And if you're going out there for the catching, then you're not going to last very long.
Scott
No, no. It's humbling. And yeah, reading the water, just picking a reasonable fly. often tell my guests, look, I'll take a mediocre fly almost any day as long as it's presented well over the best fly presented poorly. And it's true, like a good, a reasonable fly choice, right size or color, whatever it might be, the silhouette, if you present it well, it's going to work. If you take the best fly in your box or, you know, and you just slap it down with a ton of slack or you know you high impact on the water it's just not going to work so and once you start to it's guiding it or what you were talking about it's just fine tuning what people are doing you know what they're doing right and and kind of like all right well let's not do that these are the wrong things you want to you know let's let's make these corrections but you're you're on the right track let's just fine tune it all is the way I look at it
Katie
You mentioned when I sent you that doc beforehand that you view fly fishing as kind of a science plus an art or craft plus a hunt. Tell me more about your approach to that and how you view it as these three different things simultaneously.
Scott
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a craft, I guess some of that comes from fly tying. And I mean, I'm not the best fly tire in the world, but I can tie a really nice bug and a good streamer. I'm okay on nymphs, but I don't fish a ton of nymphs. But I think being a fly tire, that's certainly a craft. And I think the art of casting can fall under that category. But hunting, that primal urge to hunt fly fishing is essentially my favorite way to fish is sight fishing. I think it's the pinnacle of fly fishing, in my opinion, is being able to see a fish. And it doesn't matter what species. It can be a rough fish or the top game fish. But seeing a fish in shallow water and stalking it and making a fly, you know, presenting a fly that hopefully you tied yourself to imitate the local, you know, food or prey of choice. that that's the pinnacle of it is like tying a fly stalking a fish in shallow water it doesn't even have to be in shallow water but sight fishing anytime I get a chance to sight fish I'm I'm in my element that is my absolute favorite thing to do fresh water salt water big fish little fish any species so that's the the craft or that that hunt that relationship you're talking about
Katie
Now, is that just because you enjoy the satisfaction of seeing a fish and going through every step necessary to get it to take your fly? Is it that satisfaction? Or what is it about seeing that fish and targeting a specific one that really gets you going?
Scott
I think it's the interaction when the fly, like, all right, I got the fly in front of the fish. It didn't spook. All right, let's watch its interaction. I mean, you can see whether it's a bonefish or a big trout, like you can see their fins. You see that fish react. And well, like today, I mean, I was ice fishing today, but on sonar, I'm interacting with that fish. It's kind of like a cat and mouse. I can see it, you know, whatever depth I'm fishing and I can see my jig and I'm watching that fish, how it interacts with my presentation. And often you can talk them into it. Sight fishing with a fly rod is a lot better than ice fishing. But it's similar. I see that fish. You get the fly in front of it and, all right, I'm going to strip. I'm going to stop. I'm going to wiggle it, twitch it, whatever it might be. And I think that's pretty cool. You're truly interacting with nature. and without I mean I guess you know this is a whole nother subject you could talk about sometime but are you hurting fish when you hook them perhaps there's a little trauma there but it's it I think the the reward as the apex predator pursuing that fish and and you're you're getting out in nature, I think it far outweighs any, and, you know, it creates stewardship, all those things, it far outweighs any impact we might be having on the fish or the resource, so.
Katie
Yeah, that was another thing I saw that you had brought up was the sustainability, like, kind of wanting to build a more sustainable, like, fishing future, and this kind of ties into it, just because I feel like there's been a push in the past couple of years, at least, for if you are catch and release fishing, you know, treating that fish well enough that it's actually going to survive. Because I have no problem with keeping fish, but I don't want to release a fish and have it die. I either want to keep it and eat it or I want to release it and let it live another day. And there's been a big push, I think, to, you know, getting people toward handling fish properly and, you know, using the right kind of net and not taking the fish out of the water longer than it needs to. What kind of view do you have for kind of like a sustainable future fisheries that people can continue to do it?
Scott
Well, in my opinion, the most important thing, any angler, if they're, you know, in this, let's just, you know, the 21st century, call it what it is, high pressured, you know, post-COVID, there was a lot of people got outdoors during that. And that's wonderful. I think it's great. people were rediscovering getting outdoors. And I think that's should continue. Um, but on, you know, without a doubt, the most important thing anglers can do is fish a barbell's hook that, that takes away time that you're going to struggle with that fish. You know, let's just say you land it quickly. You're right. A cat, a proper catch and release net, keep the fish below the water line. I mean, I'm, I'm a huge believer in all those things, whether it's my day off or with clients, you know, guests, I always try and teach that. It's like, all right, this is how we're going to do this. You know, let's land that fish fairly quickly, you know, get it in the net and keep it below the water line. It's like, all right, do you guys need a photo? Like, all right, we've caught a couple, maybe we just let this one go. Or if it's a larger fish, it's like, all right, I know you want a photo. Let me help you. All right. The hook's out. Pick up your line. Put that away. Are you ready? Have your camera ready. Don't be holding the fish four feet off the ground and the camera's not even ready. It's all those little things that drive. You see it as a guide and it drives you nuts. So over time, it's like, all right, I've seen it enough. We're not doing it anymore. I'm in control. And all right, this is how we release a fish. If you need a proper photo, let's do it right and let me help you. And most people are really appreciative because they're like, wow, that's a great picture. And I'm like, yeah, there you go. And the fish was out of the water less than 10 seconds.
Katie
Yeah.
Scott
So that's the way I like to do it. Now, it doesn't always go that smoothly, but it tends to. I mean, once you get good at it, it's... But I think the single barbell's hook... And another thing, like we're talking about sustainability, the droppers, I mean, I fish droppers. I fish double fly rigs probably 40 to 60% of the time. Not a ton, but I'm not going to lie and say I don't ever do that. But some people or some areas are getting a little crazy with like three or four flies on a leader. And I think that's a little over the top. And I mean, I don't, maybe I could be, I've never debated anybody about it, but, and I'm sure they could convince me. And if I lived in that area where it was prudent, maybe I'd be doing it too. But my point is, is if you can't catch them on two flies presented well, or preferably one, then what's four going to do? I think it affects the presentation. But I understand guys are fishing different water column, you know, but we're lucky. I don't have to do that too much around this part. I can fish a, I can tie on some days either an attractor like an ant or beetle, like a terrestrial attractor or a suggestive mayfly on any day and probably fish it all day. I mean, we're pretty lucky. Now, I know there's probably going to be some people listening to this and calling BS, but it's true, though. If you believe in your fly, fish it well, you know it'll work. It's like what we were talking about a while ago. It's not the fly. Just present it better and read the water better, like meticulously read the water. But sustainability, I think the single barbless hook and better catch and release is going to go a long ways. And just being, I think, mindful of, all right, this is a crowded river. Let's give people space. Let's not drift by them and you have your oars banging each other or something. People need to give each other space, respect their boundaries. And, you know, if it's a super crowded day, maybe go somewhere else if you can, if you have that luxury of changing your plans. What else? I mean, I think in the, maybe in the future, it could be where we don't anchor much. You know, anchoring can really disturb your invertebrate life. It can do some damage for sure. So there might be less anchoring. like I'm kind of speaking about our area here. Since we work in a park, in a national park, the resource protection is kind of high on our priority. I mean, that is the number one thing. So we're always thinking about how can we do what we do better. And so less anchoring. We don't walk above the high water mark, but we also are very cautious if we're walking in the water. So there's, you know, we stay in the boats a lot. So it's safe. It's a safe environment in the boat for our guests. So, but yeah, the sustainability, I'm always thinking about ways like, because it's going to come or happen sooner than we think. It could be just a couple of years where things kind of get crazy in some areas. I mean, I don't know about you. I'm sure you guys have warm water.
Katie
Oh, yeah.
Scott
Uh, by the end of July, we had water near 70 degrees up here and I've never seen that. I've lived here almost 25 years and I've never seen, water like 71 degrees on the Snake River late July, early August. So closures are going to happen. I know in Montana, the hoot hours are very popular. Do you do that in Colorado?
Katie
I don't think we have hoot owl hours, but we have voluntary fishing closures. So they'll put up signs along the riverbank that says, they say like, this water's warm. It's not illegal to fish it, but we highly recommend you don't. And I mean, to be honest, if I saw someone fishing that, I'd be like, that person's an asshole. You know, like I'm not going to go fish that in front of, in front of these signs. And I generally don't see people disregard them. So they, they do seem to keep people off the water when they put those signs up. But it's a bummer when there's that many waterways that are basically closed at the same time. You know, it happens at the same time a year for all of them. And it's kind of a bummer when there's that many that are closing down. But, you know, I don't know if maybe there's a way to move toward voluntary fishing closure after 10 a.m. or something. You know, give people a couple hours to get out, try to catch some fish if they can after the colder night temperatures. But, yeah, we do have the fishing closures quite a bit in the summer. They encourage people to get up into the high country. Like, go up and fish the Alpine lakes. they're deep, they're at 10,000 feet, like you can still go have a great time and not be on this particular river.
Scott
Yeah. It just goes back to adapting. I'm always like, like, all right, we got to adapt every, whether it's, you know, spring, summer, winter, fall, you're, you're adapting to the conditions and, and that's just one of those adjustments, mid July or late July, early August, is the big window for us. It's about three, maybe four weeks where It's pretty hot and there's no reason to really be out there after one o'clock. Now, honestly, you're probably not really catching that much anyhow. So you're not hurting the fish because they just tend to hang low. I mean, the bite was at 6 a.m. You missed it. So that's the good news. I don't get too hard on people if they're fishing afterwards, but I'm like, hey, you know, just so you know, you know, that awareness. You just got to be, and that goes a long ways. If you're just kind of nice, hey, you know, it's a little late. You know, what do you think? There's not a ton of data. I mean, I think not at least really firm scientific data on what happens. I've had fish be quite cooperative in the mid to upper 60 degree range. But after that, I don't really know because I just feel too guilty and I'm not fishing it. Above 68 is kind of our benchmark or cutoff line. We don't tend to fish above 68 as an outfitter. But I've had great days where the water is mid-60s. And the fish, they swim away just fine. And I've talked to other guys or locals, and they're like, these fish are fine. I mean, they get used to it. And I'm like, I don't know. Really? Maybe? I think if you fight a fish to exhaustion, 70-degree water could easily be lethal. But they are more resilient. I mean, they're not a catfish, but the trout are pretty resilient if you do the proper catch and release like we were talking about. You'll see that fish swim away vigorously if you do all those things in the water. It could be in the upper 60s. I don't know if I recommend it, but I've seen it. I've witnessed a fish swim away very, very rigorously. So it probably comes down to dissolved oxygen and how healthy the fish is. Is it being nourished well from food? And is there enough dissolved oxygen? So I don't know all that scientific data. I do have an interest in freshwater biology, but I don't think there is a ton of research on what happens after angling pressure for trout in the upper reaches of the water. I mean, there's speculation. I think for me, it's just like, hey, we think it's going to hurt the fish, so why do it? Let's just stop.
Katie
Yeah. I mean, be proactive about it.
Scott
Yeah, be proactive. Exactly.
Katie
You mentioned the three-fly rig. And we've got about five minutes left before we're at time. The three-fly rig you brought up, I think a way that people can kind of balance that, because I understand the desire to have more flies on is kind of the more flies, more fish mentality. I like to use, because we can use three in Colorado. I like using three to figure out if there's something in particular they're eating. And if you figure that out, take it off and now take the other ones off. And now you've got the fly that's working and you're not worrying about getting tangled every other cast in the wind. Like you can use it kind of as a search technique, narrow it down and then drop down to one to two flies pretty easily. And it's it's kind of the best of both worlds at that point.
Scott
Yeah. I mean, and I when I talk about things, I'm never I'm like, I don't have the truth on anything. I'm always listening and on all ears on like, you know, if you have a position on something, I agree. I mean, I just, I think in guiding, when I've come in that situation where I've considered it, it's just the entanglements are real. Like, all right, we're going to spend more time untangling than we are in the strike zone. So let's just focus on the strike zone and not be untangling. That's all it is. A lot of guiding is just weighing out your course of action here. If we do this, this is going to happen. If we do that, that's going to, you know, if you have less flies in the water, we're going to have less opportunity. But if the flies are constantly tangled, you're not in the water anyway. So I think you, you know, it's a whole funny thing.
Katie
Right. At the end of the day, I'd much rather be taking casts to fish and not catching anything than untangling a knot. I can have fun casting all day long. So if I can keep my line in a working manner and just cast that single fly, even if it's not going super well, I'm going to choose to do that over untangling bird's nests all day. I think most people would be on the same page.
Scott
Yeah. One cast I try and teach people from a drift boat, it's the reach cast. And it's baffling how I've fished with people for years and they still are executing a reach cast will, you know, increase your, with a dry fly, especially your, your catch, your catch rate or your, at least your opportunity to catch more, probably tenfold. I mean, it's unbelievable.
Katie
So just having to avoid that mend.
Scott
Yeah. Yeah. Having to avoid the mend is a great thing.
Katie
Well, I'd love to keep talking with you because I feel like we're just going on and on. But because of our tech issues, we're getting cut off in about three minutes. So I want to give you a chance to let people know if they come up and visit that area, how can they find you? I know you own a fly lodge. I don't know if it's a lodge or just a guide service, but tell people about that and where they could find you.
Scott
We're primarily a guide service. We have a small fly shop, but we have about 17 guides in the summer and I still guide myself. I still love it. I mean, that's my wheelhouse. Being in the office is not my biggest strength, I'll be honest. But we have a fly shop, large, you know, medium, large guide service, a lot of great guides, a lot of veteran guides. Most of us have been doing it in this region for 20 plus years. So there's a lot of time among all our guides like you know among the staff like it's incredible so and that shows on the water not not so much in your catch but the experience the overall experience is what I really get into and like we were talking about earlier just that having people make a connection with the resources what I shoot for fish fish are a bonus they're gonna happen but and some days they don't but but yeah the incredible resources up here we're Grand Teton fly fishing we've got a great web website people can go to we're on instagram and I do a little bit of facebook I'm not a huge fan but it is what it is but I love instagram I really enjoy photography so I try and create good image content with a nice message is kind of my philosophy so that's how they can find us.
Katie
Well, I hope you get a good rest of your winter coming up with the you've been doing some ice fishing, so hope that keeps going well with you. I hope you have a good summer with lots of water. I know we're all wished for that out west, and it seems like so far a good snowpack for us, so I wish the same for you, and once again, thank you for bearing with me with the tech issues today. I've had a really good time talking with you, even though we've had to cut it off like five or six times at this point, and so I just can't thank you enough.
Scott
Oh, you're welcome. It was really nice to meet you, Katie, and no problem on the tech issues. That stuff happens. So look forward to maybe another time. So thanks again. All right.
Katie
Thank you. All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.