Ep 64: Colorado High Country, Guest Appearance on Eastmans’ Fly Cast
Brian Barney (also appearing in episode 31) is a bowhunter, fly fisherman, and host of the Eastmans’ Fly Cast podcast, which focuses on adventure fly fishing all over the world and close to home. This episode first aired on his podcast, and he interviewed me about all things high country fishing in Colorado. It was fun to be on the other side of the microphone, and Brian and I had a great time getting into the nitty-gritty of backcountry fly fishing.
Instagram: @brian__barney
Eastmans’ Fly Cast Instagram: @eastmans_flycast
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This episode first aired on the Eastman's Flycast. In this one, Brian interviews me about all things fly fishing the high country of Colorado.
Intro
You are listening to Eastman's Flycast, an adventure fly fishing specific podcast covering travel tactics and next level insight. Now your host, Brian Barney.
Brian
Hey, what's happening guys? I've got a brand new Eastman's Flycast for you. So this week I have on Katie Burgert from the Fish Untamed podcast. So she had me on her podcast, well it's probably been about a year now, and we've kept in contact. She's been bow hunting quite a bit so we've exchanged emails there. And then I wanted to have her back on the podcast. She's just so passionate, knowledgeable about fly fishing, really gets after it. So we get on and just have this authentic conversation all about the fly fishing right around her. She lives in Colorado so we talk about fishing high mountain lakes, we talk about fishing streams, we talk about fishing rivers, we talk about different patterns, different techniques, boats, we talk about fishing different species, carp and different species of trout. It's just this great conversation. So I'm happy to release it to you guys. I really enjoyed it. I think you guys will too. So I want to thank Eastman's for supporting this podcast. And with that, let's get into this. So Katie Burgert from the Fish Untamed podcast. I'm Brian Barney, your host. Eastman's Flycast. Here we go. Okay, so I'm here with my friend Katie. Katie has had me on her podcast, Fish Untamed. And so we've kept in touch throughout the year. The last time that I was on. Katie, thanks so much for joining me.
Katie
Yeah, absolutely. Happy to do it.
Brian
Yeah, you've been doing such a great job with that podcast. It sure helps in the journey of fly fishing, doesn't it?
Katie
Yeah, I meet a lot of good people, yourself included, obviously. That's how we got connected with each other, is you coming on my show. It's been like that with pretty much everyone I've talked to. I've gotten to fish with people that I never would have gotten to fish with, or just learn things. So I always meet a lot of good people through the show.
Brian
It is an amazing way to make new friends, isn't it? You just build such a connection sitting down with somebody and talking over things for an hour and talking in depth about subject matter that we both love. It just seems like an instant connection. So I'm the same way as I've made good friends and made better friends just through doing the podcast with good people. It's just been amazing. It's such a cool journey.
Katie
Yeah, for sure. It's so much easier to get someone to talk to you when you can say, "Hey, do you want to come on my show?" versus just, "Hey, can I pick your brain?" No one wants to just talk to you for an hour randomly, you know, some person they've never met before. But if you record it, suddenly they're more willing to do so.
Brian
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. It makes a purpose. It goes on the podcast and they get to promote anything they're working on and it's just like a purpose to go on and talk for an hour because you're right, we just don't have these conversations like even with my best buddies, I think we're 10, 15 minutes at best. You hardly ever jump on for 45 minutes or an hour and so you get to have this in-depth conversation. Yeah, I think you just build an instant connection. Thanks so much for being on. Katie, where are you located at?
Katie
I'm just outside Denver, so Lakewood, Colorado. It's about 10 minutes outside the mountains. Still to get the benefit of being close to Denver, but not quite in the downtown. We left that a couple years ago and haven't looked back.
Brian
Oh, it's nice to get out of the town a little bit, isn't it? But still have all the conveniences of a town.
Katie
Right. I mean, one day we're hoping to get even farther out of town, but for right now, where we are in our lives, this is nice. Someday we're hoping to move kind of farther out into the mountains. I don't know what what type of situation you live in if you're kind of closer to town or or out in the country a little bit more but that's that's our ultimate goal.
Brian
Yeah it's it's so nice to have a little bit of elbow room. So we sit about 60 miles south of Bozeman so we're in a small community of Ennis, Montana and so Ennis has only like a couple thousand full-time residents. We actually don't have a stoplight in our town and we have a stop sign, that's about it. It seems to balloon up like in the summertime, we'll get 5,000 to 6,000 people in town and then we get a lot of people that travel here for the fly fishing. We live like right on the Madison River, which is great with good mountain views. So it's like the perfect mix for me, having Bozeman 60 miles away so we can go there to do grocery shopping or anything we need there, also being in our rural community. But it's just a great community because everybody that lives here wants to be here. Everybody that lives here, you know, enjoys the mountains, enjoys outside, or enjoy fly-fishing, or is really happy to be in this place. So we've got like this great school district and this great little community. So I just absolutely love it here.
Katie
Yeah, I think I've driven through Ennis. I think I may have stopped and gotten a coffee in one of the gas stations there at one point when we were fishing the Madison, but we were staying in Big Sky. So I think Ennis was one of our pit stops. I remember thinking it seemed like one of those communities where everyone knows each other, everyone would be willing to help someone out if they got a flat tire or needed something. It just seemed like one of those wholesome places that people just are happy and happy to help.
Brian
Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's just a great community where I don't worry about my girls if they get stuck somebody would give them a ride home. Yeah, we don't have any crime. I don't know where the keys to my house are. I guess I probably shouldn't say that on a podcast but yeah, we don't lock our doors or anything of that nature. So it's like, it's a really nice community to live in. So what'd you think of the Madison when you fished it?
Katie
Oh, it was fantastic. I'm trying to remember how many times I fished it. I'm not sure if I did it more than once on one trip or if I've been there multiple times on different But we were there kind of in the offseason. I remember snow. I remember there was snow on the ground. So I want to say it was maybe April. So there weren't a lot of people. We didn't have to compete. I remember maybe one car in the parking lots. And I hear about the Madison a lot on other people's podcasts. And it sounds like a madhouse in the summer. So I think I kind of nailed it being there just before the runoff kicked in and the summer crowd showed up. But we had the river to ourselves. I remember catching some nice browns and I distinctly remember one nice whitefish because I love whitefish. Any whitefish I can catch I'm happy with.
Brian
Oh, good for you. You like catching whitefish, huh?
Katie
Yeah. No, I think they fight harder than trout, so I take them.
Brian
They do. They pull hard, don't they? I caught a great big one.
Katie
Are you a fan?
Brian
I am. Yeah, I caught a great big one last winter in Wyoming. Just a giant whitefish. And they do. I had the mega of all trout on there, you know, just because they do fight so hard. But how cool, yeah, they call the Madison the 100-mile riffle. You did time it perfectly, by the way. Like the springtime is my favorite time to fish a lot of these rivers around here. But even in the summertime, it still fishes good and still fishing right now in the fall as well. Do you guys deal with a lot of crowds there in Colorado?
Katie
We do. I feel like Colorado is kind of known for being pretty bad with the crowds, but I will also say that I feel like the crowds tend to congregate around some specific areas, and if you're willing to fish somewhere other than those specific areas and maybe walk a couple miles, you can easily have a day where you don't see anybody else or maybe see one or two other anglers. So we do have a ton of crowds, but you don't really have to put that much effort into getting away from them if you really want to. I always find it worth it to get away from the crowds. I'll gladly walk a mile or two or more if I need to to have the water to myself.
Brian
Effort is just a great way to separate yourself from the crowds. I find it even here. I'm building a house up by a $3 bridge. I drive by that bridge daily. It seems like I can see the majority of fishermen that are parked there every day within just a quarter to a half a mile of the access point where you're right, just putting in a few miles and putting in a little bit of effort makes all the difference in the world. I feel like that's where you find better fishing and bigger fish as well.
Katie
Yeah, definitely. I feel like you have to work... I've always said I would rather work a lot harder to get to the fish and then have the fishing be easy. I like challenging myself on the river too. I think there's a place for trying to catch really picky fish that take a very specific presentation. But at the end of the day, I would rather work harder physically to get myself to a place where the fishing is easy. You get back into the backcountry and you can catch like 100 fish in a day on a good day. I would rather put that work in first and then be able to enjoy myself fishing than walk out of my car but but then struggle all day to catch like a single fish. I'd rather put in that work on the front end.
Brian
Yeah, I like that, Katie. I view it similarly, I just hadn't thought about it that way, but I do. It's like when you work hard too, or when you put in effort, it's like a bit of paying your dues towards the river or towards the fish. And so it feels good to put that kind of effort in, in search, in some days you don't always find the great fishing or the big fish, but putting that effort in, I always feel good. Like you just, I feel like I'm all in, like I'm going for it, you know? And that's a good feeling. Like I love the adventure of it. It's part of the reason I love fly fishing, you know? And so that effort in the front half, you know, getting to those spots, I think is definitely rewarding. And there's something special about the experience of being able to get away from people or not seeing people all day. Like it makes for a good experience, whether I'm catching fish or not. I just feel like I'm the only one in that hole for the day, or the only one fishing to those fish. And to me, that's a good feeling.
Katie
Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, even if you do run into somebody back there, it's generally gonna be someone you get along with. Like, I don't really like running into people when I pull off on the side of the road and go fishing. Like, I'm like, ah, there's somebody parked here. But if I run into somebody five miles back, I'm like, oh, I should go talk to them. Like, say hi, see what they're like. 'Cause I just kind of assume that anyone else back there is probably someone I'd like to know.
Brian
That makes sense as well. Yeah, it's always good interactions with the people you run into back there because they're putting the same effort forth. It seems like a lot of times right from the access point, I don't know. It's just not the similar thinking or the similar people. You'll see people that are maybe fishing right off the boat ramp or something or don't realize that they're in the way of boats going in and out. It just seems like a different mentality almost. So yeah, it makes sense as well. And the people that I run into, they're putting in the effort. It seems like you have this quality connection. I think fly fishing too, it is about like you gain knowledge from talking to people and being honest and also sharing information with people. But that's a huge part of learning fly fishing is talking to people out there. Now, I'm not looking for their secret fly or their secret hole or anything like I just want to know if they're catching fish or some general questions. And then, you know, as I ask a general question, they may ask one back and give them an honest answer back so they can so it makes their fishing better. But so much of fishing, too, is is being able to get and use information and in turn you're also willing to give information while you're out there.
Katie
It's interesting you bring that up because I feel like this is almost a divide between online and in-person interactions. I feel like if you go on a fly fishing forum or social media in general, people get very defensive and sometimes aggressive about people asking for information. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of people who just come online and are like, "Where was this? Where's your spot?" I think that's kind of lazy and I generally don't like that kind of interaction. But I think there's also this defensiveness if someone asks, "Oh, what fly should I use for whatever?" or "How can I find some good water to fish?" Stuff like that. But in person, I feel like I almost never have those negative interactions. If I meet somebody in the parking lot and say, "Hey, how was it? What are they hitting on?" They're usually more than happy to call me over and talk to me and show me what they were using and tell me like, "Oh yeah, right up in that hole right there, that's where I caught them." And it just seems like, you know, when you're talking to someone face to face, they don't have that same level of, I don't know, gatekeeping of their secret spots or their secret flies. They're just kind of happy to meet somebody who is interested in the same things they are.
Brian
Yeah, they don't have their guard up as much. Yeah, and it is a fine line, right? is like you don't, you know, I'm not looking for somebody's secret spot or where they caught the exact fish. You're just looking for like general information and looking to share. But it's a fine line too. Like I've also got buddies that, you know, work really hard to find good fishing and, you know, they don't want to share any information, you know, but at least you can be cordial and nice on the river. It's the same people trying to enjoy the same fishing that you are. And a lot of times, I mean, it's saved a day for me where I'm trying to grind out with a certain fly or a certain something. And, you know, you have this interaction with somebody like I can remember fishing on with my dad, like on the, on the big hole this year. And, um, Uh, we, we had caught some fish and we were fishing streamers and then, you know, uh, a guy went by and I can't remember our interaction went by in a boat, but it was just kind of a back and forth or are you getting them? And he goes, yeah, I'm getting them on this tan streamer, you know? and it was like I wouldn't have even thought to fish a tan streamer in that system. And sure enough, put on a tan streamer, we let them go and so we were following them down and we killed them for the rest of the day on a tan streamer, you know, something I would have never fished in. So, so many times, like it can turn the day around just having like this positive interaction with somebody out there on the river.
Katie
Yep, yep, for sure. And I agree, I think there's a difference between, like you said, you work hard for your spots. And there's spots that I will not share. Like I just, I won't even acknowledge that they're there. I just keep them to myself and they're not gonna be talked about online. And then there's other places that it's just, it's not that secret, you know? It's like talking about the Madison River. Like everybody out here knows about the Madison River. Maybe you've got a secret spot on the river, but I also think it's kind of silly sometimes when people go to great lengths to avoid talking about how they're fishing on, you know, the most popular river in the state. It's like, well, you could share that that's where you're fishing. No one's gonna be taking that as your secret spot. It's, thousands of people know about that.
Brian
Yeah, absolutely. And there are some spots that definitely, you hold close to your chest and there's timing on systems that you don't release that information freely to bring crowds to your favorite spot that you go. But yeah, I've always thought about it that way where I share the information I learn. And even with hunting and bow hunting spots, it seems like the people that are chasing your spots or chasing good hunting by looking at your photos and trying to figure where you're at, like they're missing the whole game. Like the game isn't to try to take spots from somebody else or figure out where they're fishing. Like the game is to improve your skillset to a point that you can go to these systems and catch these fish. And the point of it is to up your knowledge and skill set to where you can time it on different systems yourself, because even if you find out where somebody caught a great big fish, it doesn't matter. You can show up on an off day of fishing or a couple off days of fishing. It seems like fishing is so much timing as well, knowing when those hatches are coming off or knowing when streamers are gonna fish good. And that's all learned. Like the greatest teacher out there is experience. And so the more you're out there, the more you learn. But I really feel like those people that are looking to spot steal or figure out the exact hole you were, the exact river, exact stretch, they're kind of missing the point of the whole process, I think.
Katie
Yeah, and I guess for me too, it's a lot of the fun. I'm sure maybe you're the same way. It's not just a matter of I've put in the work, you need to put in the work too. It's like you said, you're kind of missing a big part of the process. I love getting on OnX or Google Earth and just looking and being like, "Oh, that looks like a good spot." And it gets you excited. It's part of the trip. It makes the fishing last a lot longer if you can get excited about it for a couple weeks beforehand because you're looking at aerial views and trying to plan out where you're going to go and how you're going to get there. You're kind of depriving yourself of, what I would say is, just as much fun as actually going and taking the trip is getting yourself prepared for it and dreaming about what you're going to do. So I would encourage anyone who's maybe not confident in finding their own spots and trying to find advice from other people, just go give it a whirl. The worst thing that happens is you go and you don't catch a big fish. Worse things have happened than going fishing and not catching something. I think, like you said, that is a big part of the process and one of the most fun parts, in my opinion.
Brian
Oh, you're spot on. We're explorers by nature as human beings. so fun to go to new places or new stretches. And I really get that feeling like when I'm drifting a new stretch or I'm finding a new system and I'm just trying to figure it out. It's one of my favorite parts of fly fishing. And so you use onX quite a bit to find, to scout locations and where you're gonna fish. So what are you looking for when you're looking at onX? Are you looking for big bends in the river or just looking for where the water goes? or what exactly are you trying to target when you're looking at onX?
Katie
I guess it depends what kind of water I'm looking for. I think there's a difference between looking for maybe a good stretch on a river that's got a road along it versus what my preferred, I guess what I use onX more for is back country stuff, so usually alpine lakes. And a lot of the planning for that, there's not much if there's a trail to it 'cause it's follow the trail, get to the lake. A couple of things I'll look for from aerial views for those Alpine lakes is like a shelf. I really like knowing if I need to take waders or a belly boat. And a lot of the times you can see a shelf from a satellite image 'cause it'll just be kind of a lighter tan color around the edge. And I'm not gonna take waders probably if there's no shelf because I'm just gonna be casting offshore anyway. And I'll save the weight. But if I see a big shelf, I'm gonna assume that a lot of the fish are gonna be hanging right off that shelf. And I'm probably gonna wanna take some waders I feel like that can separate you from any of the folks that are up there. Like there might be other people fishing, but if they can't wade and you can, that gives you access to a completely different part of the lake and fish that aren't going to be targeted by other people. So I'll look for that. Like I said, for lakes, there's often a trail to the top. So it's not a matter of like planning your route in, it's just following the trail. For rivers, sometimes there might not be a trail or if you want to get to a certain part of the river, there might not be a trail. So some of that might just be looking at the most efficient route. Around here we've got a lot of beetle kill, so I'm trying not to walk over the beetle kill if I can avoid it. I've done enough of that for hunting for a lifetime at this point. But yeah, in terms of river features, I'm not too picky. I feel like a lot of the rivers, the alpine rivers we have around here, I guess streams is a better word for them. Most of them aren't very big. They're kind of loaded with fish the whole way through. So I'm not looking for a specific bend target. I'll look for a nice meadow stretch if the river has one, versus a deep valley that maybe has deadfall over it or cascading falls that might be hard to fish. I'd prefer to get a nice meandering meadow stream that has undercut banks. That's probably one of my favorite features to fish, just a meandering meadow stream with undercut banks and tall grass. Hopper fishing is a lot of fun. So if I can find a river that looks like it might be good hopper territory, I'll probably go for that. But it's not the same, I feel like, in terms of e-scouting for hunting, where you're looking for features that are going to hold animals, because the fish are in the river. It's not going to be hard to walk up the river until you find a hole that's got them. So it's less e-scouting for features for me, and more just finding places that people might not be willing to walk to, rivers that might not have a name or a path along them. Because I feel like if you can find a stream that doesn't have a name or doesn't have a trail, there's not going to be anybody else there. And that's mostly what I'm looking for at that point.
Brian
That makes sense. That's super smart. Yeah, it's amazing to be able to use these tools, use this technology for our fishing and things. And so here we have bigger rivers. And so a lot of times I'm scouting them through onX and I'm looking for rapids. Or I'm looking for tight spots where maybe it'll pull it out in a diversion ditch to make sure that I can get my boat through there. And then I also, I like to see winding streams. I think corners are really good. Like I love the outside corner that pulls a lot of water to it. And so I'll look at that as well. And then, um, like, like also using it for safety for just marking the put-ins and the takeouts. So I know what it looks like as I, as I come up to it, but I liked your tips about like fishing lakes like that. For lakes, it seems like I'm always looking for the deep side of the lake too, which has got deeper color to it. It sounds like you like to fish off the shelf sometimes. Do you also look for deep spots in that lake when you're fishing?
Katie
I will. I think it depends. It's basically a case-by-case basis. Sometimes I feel like I'll look for that deeper stuff, but a lot of times if there is a shelf, it'll get, you know, it'll drop off to deep. It doesn't really have to go that deep, I feel like because the fish are just gonna hang out right on the edge of that shelf But I'll fish the whole way around the lake I don't necessarily go there with one spot in mind The lakes we have here are small enough that you can usually walk around them in I don't know half hour It's not like you have to choose one spot on the lake to fish So I'll often pick a place to start and then work my way around it I mean a lot of it comes down to where can you get a cast? You know if there's willows all the way around the lake you might not have access even though you see fish swimming around in there If you can't get a cast out and get down to the water to land it, you're pretty limited. So I feel like I'm not putting a ton of stock into planning exactly where I'm going to go in the lake. I'm looking for lakes that have fishable features. So maybe a shelf that I can walk out on, or like you said, maybe a deep spot, but has a place for me to stand on shore and cast out there. Because if I can't access it, then it's worthless. So I'm looking for lakes that have multiple places to fish and maybe multiple features that are different. So maybe if the fish aren't hanging off that shelf that day or maybe they're on top of the shelf, maybe they're in the deeper water, the day you get up there you might not know where they're gonna be until you get there. So I want there to be multiple options where if they're if they're not on the shelf maybe I can walk to the other side and hit that deep water from shore or if they're not on shore maybe I can walk out on that shelf or fish the shelf like on top of it and having a having a belly boat is always a plus it's a lot of weight to carry up there and if you're camping it's it's kind of limiting because you can't really fit all of that at least I can't I haven't found a way to fit it all in my backpack but if you can get a boat up there that's my favorite because then you can just go you know find the fish and just stay right there on top of them and don't leave.
Brian
Oh that makes good sense and you're right in that you know you we make these plans and we e-scout places and we look at bends, but you don't really know until you get there. It's kind of like a adapt and evolve and overcome. Like you get to a lake and you might have the best laid plans to fish this deep side, but you're right, you can't get a cast in there or you can't get out to where the fish are circling around. And so you have to kind of adapt to the conditions in which you're given. What's your preferred method for fishing lakes? Are you fishing all types like nymphing, dry flies and streamers, or do you have a preferred method when you're targeting these lakes?
Katie
I mean I'll do whatever I feel like will catch me fish but I feel like if I could if I could choose my method it would be dry fly then streamer then nymph probably but I probably do more nymphing than I do streamer fishing and I'm not sure why that is I think part of it's probably because I'm usually carrying up fairly lightweight gear this just not as you know throwing a streamer on a four weight isn't ideal and that's usually what I'm taking up in the backcountry because most of the fish I'm catching are not huge. I might take a heavier rod if I know I'm gonna be catching something bigger. I'm also just not, I don't feel like I'm as confident with streamers as I am with dry flies and nymphs. I just haven't put enough time into it. But most of the lakes around here I feel like you can get away pretty well with dry flies, at least through the summer. You know, I go up there mostly, you know, after ice out, June through August is usually the time I'm up there. And it's usually not too hard to get a fish to come for a dry fly and if they won't, sometimes I'll just throw a dropper just dangling off the bottom and let it sit and they'll come up and snatch that. And then if that doesn't work, I'll throw a nymph and strip it back. And then if that doesn't work, I'll probably go to a streamer. I know a lot of people have way more success with streamers probably because they actually try it more often, but I often don't get to the point that I need one because I've started to catch fish on one of my previous plan, my plan A through C. So I don't have to go to plan D, which is streamers for me. So just not my preferred style. I think I'd probably like it more if I dedicated more time to it. But like I said, I think dry flies are my favorite and probably will always be my favorite.
Brian
Oh, for good reason. There is nothing like watching that fish come up in a clear lake and seeing them come up and come in for your fly and then eat it like that. Do you have some good hatches that come out on these lakes or some flies that you like to use up there?
Katie
I think some of them do have some hatches. Honestly, I haven't found that I've needed it. I feel like I've needed to be more specific. Like I feel like there's lakes that have, you know, the fish feed on scuds, for example. And if you're not throwing a scud, you're not gonna catch them or et cetera, midges or whatever they're feeding on. But I feel like for dry flies, at least for me, my personal experience, I haven't needed to match the hatch on those Alpine lakes in the same way that I have to on the rivers. Like if we go out, for example, on the frying pan in August, you will be throwing PMDs from like 1 to 2 p.m. or you won't be catching fish, likely, on the surface. They're keyed into that specific insect and they might even be keyed into that specific fly. Like if you're throwing the wrong pattern of PMD, you might just not catch as many. But I feel like on the lakes up high, I have gotten away pretty easily with a handful of your classic dry flies, like some parachute Adams, elkhair caddis, just like basic stuff. And generally, if I go through at least three or four different flies, they're going to take one of them. And I'm not really looking specifically for the hatch that's coming off. I feel like parachute Adams, elk hair caddis, Griffith’s gnat, a handful of sizes. I feel like size has made a difference for me. If I see that they're eating something really small, I'll size down. But for the most part, I haven't paid as much attention to what should be hatching or what I'm- like, I'm not lifting up rocks as much. I'm not looking to catch bugs in the air I'm just kind of giving it a shot and usually I land on something that's working within the first two or three flies I try.
Brian
That's smart. Those fish in lakes do seem to be hungry and they look to be they seem to be predators that are just looking for bugs to land on that surface and I also noticed by the flies that you mentioned is those flies fish really good. They float really good, you can see them, and in those different sizes it seems like so much of fishing dry flies is not so much of what the pattern looks like. Like you're right, sometimes they are specific and they will only eat this one pattern and they can be really picky. But a lot of dry fly fishing too is just having a fly that fishes well, your presentation and floats well, and you can see it to then set on the strike. And it seems like those patterns that you mentioned were really good patterns that also fish really well. Yeah, I love streamers in the river I love big streamers in general. It seems like I have a tough time getting into the numbers on lakes, like trying to fish them. Like I'll try them and I'll throw them out there and I may hook one, but you know, the other methods just work so much better. And what I have had luck on, which is really strange, is I did some construction work for a guy that guides up at Hebgen Lake. And he was like this 30 year old guide up on Hebgen Lake and knew that lake so well. and he takes his lake boat out there. And I have some buddies that are really effective fishing up there. But he gave me a couple patterns and he said, "Hey, try these patterns in lakes." And he gave me permission to copy his patterns and so I've copied them now, but they don't look like anything. They're not matching any hatch. They're not matching anything in the lakes, anything in the rivers. They're like a red tailed, like smaller leech, and then an orange tail, like really bright colors. Now, maybe they're representing like small fry. Like I noticed using an orange one where brook trout were present works really good or using a red one where cutthroat or rainbows. So maybe they're eating them for like a small representation. As I always think like trout like to eat their own. It seems like I catch brown trout on yellow streamers, you know, but I do so good on those little tiny like leech patterns, almost like you were talking throwing a nymph in and stripping it in. With these small leech patterns, it seems like I can use those in lakes and they've just been like a go-to for me. And they're a go-to because they catch fish for me, but it's wild because they are so hungry in those lakes a lot of times, as they don't have abundant food source. It seems like you guys have a bunch of good lakes that are in Colorado, and also like a bunch of good high country. You guys have 13s and 14s, like you gotta be in good shape to get to a lot of those things.
Katie
Yeah and one thing I want to mention on that is when I was saying that like the techniques that we were talking about on these lakes these are all like what I would consider pretty high alpine like a lot of them are above tree line I I would feel less confident on a lake down around my elevation I feel like there's there's something different about those lakes that are way up high I don't know if it's because they have a limited feeding window you know that the lakes are only iced out a couple months of the year really where they've got that actually abundant insect life. So I don't know if maybe that's why they feel a little bit easier to kind of just throw whatever fly you want because they've only got a couple months. They've got a forge before it before it ices out again. So I wouldn't necessarily feel as confident just throwing out some random fly on a lake down here that they've got access to the surface year-round and can kind of be a little bit pickier. But yeah the ones that that I like going to are the ones that do require a little bit more effort to get to like up above ten thousand probably is is about the minimum of four. I like to fish a lot. You get the trees are starting to get a little smaller. You might get above tree line. You get beautiful views of the mountains. Like I said the people up there you meet are usually a lot a lot cooler because you know they've worked to get up there. So yeah those are the those are the lakes I'm focusing on. I'm not focusing as much. If I'm down here I'm probably going to be hitting a river.
Brian
Mm-hmm how fun. Yeah I'd love to fish the rivers as well but those high country there's something that's super special about them. Again, it's the adventure and exploring up there and then you know you have to be cognizant of the weather wherever you're at but especially up in that high country you got to look for storms that are coming in if you're camping you have to camp in a safe place. Yeah it's a whole adventure up there. It's super cool. Do they, you find some big trout up in those lakes that sit up in that high country?
Katie
Yes but it's It's a lake by lake basis. It's not, I feel like some of the bigger rivers around here, let's say the Colorado or the Frying Pan or the South Platte, you can assume that there's big trout in there. It's like a big river, there's gonna be big trout. You're not gonna be catching four inch fish. I mean, they're in there, I'm sure, but they're getting eaten up by the big ones too. So you know there's big fish in there. The lakes, you could go up and find a lake that's got nothing but 10 inch fish that just kind of seem to max out at that point. A lot of them have maybe 10 to 16 inch fish as their average. But there's a couple where the average fish is 18 plus. And I'm not sure what causes the discrepancy between different lakes. It might just be maybe where they're positioned or how much sunlight they get. I have no idea. But there are lakes, and it comes down to trial and error. This goes back to just giving it a shot and seeing how it works out because, yeah, you can find some of that information online if you can find a picture that someone's posted from that lake. for the most part is show up and you might look down and just see a tank floating right in front of you and you're like no way I had no idea there are fish this big in here. So that's kind of the it's like Christmas you show up and you're not sure what you're gonna find.
Brian
Yeah that's wild I think you're right you just got to pick a spot commit to it and go in and see what it has and it does seem like it's a case-by-case scenario like you can you can go into some lakes and it can look exactly the same as three lakes down or a lake that's three miles away and like you say you see tankers just swimming around and they're giant fish and then you know there's other ones that you go in and maybe there's an abundance of fish but they're all 14 to 16 inches or something 10 to 15 inches like you were stating like it does seem to be a case-by-case basis and I love catching the different species as well like I love catching the brook trout and then like if I can hike to a lake with brook trout I'm pretty stoked or hike to a lake like around here will have golden trout as well. And there's only a few lakes that have them and so trying to target one of these lakes that has golden trout and then also lakes with cutthroat and lakes with browns and it's kind of the fun of the whole deal is going up there and you never quite know what you're going to catch or what you're going to see. It's definitely part of the fun of it. But you fish a lot in the rivers as well. You say if you're going to fish at your elevation there, you'll usually go to a river. Do you like the technical side of the rivers or what draws you to the rivers?
Katie
I think I just like, I'm drawn to moving water in general. I don't want to say that lakes aren't interesting. I really like fishing lakes too. And I like that you can see the fish swimming around, but there's something just different about moving water. And I like reading the water. I honestly feel more confident reading water in rivers just because lakes, I don't know, sometimes you show up and you can't figure them out and they feel frustrating. I mean, for the most part, the Alpine lakes in the summer are pretty hot. Like you can catch fish pretty easily, but sometimes I feel like you get there and you're just not catching fish and you throw everything in your box and just something's not working. You know, you can't figure out if it's your flies or if it's your presentation. And I feel like a river, you can show up and you can start to dissect it. You can look at pockets and see if the fish are hiding behind boulders. There's just like things you can start to figure out. And once you catch a couple fish, you can start to connect the dots and say, what did all these strikes have in common? Did I get strikes in this like side eddy? Or are they right on the seam between the fast water and slow water? And you can kind of put the puzzle together. And I feel like you come out of fishing a river feeling like you've, I don't know, done some detective work and figured something out. And I feel like the lakes are either I show up and it's great or I show up and I get skunked. And I feel like by the end of the day on a river, I can usually figure it out to the point of getting a couple of fish in the net. I don't usually come back from a river skunked just because you can read the water and put your past experience to use and figure it out.
Brian
Yeah, that makes sense. I love fishing rivers too. I'd love, you stated reading the water, like reading that water, you can identify places where the fish should be living. So you really feel like you're fishing over fish, like you're getting your flies in front of fish. And so you can kind of rule that out that, oh, I'm not fishing over fish or where they're living or where they're eating. Yeah, and there's just something about it that it's that moving water, you're constantly engaged in your drift. You're constantly engaged in your cast. It just seems to mesmerize me where, you know, I may fish all day and I have to remind myself to look up and look at the view around because I'm so engaged and focused on the water and what I'm seeing and where those fish will live. But, you know, that's part of the fun for me as well. Now in Colorado, it seems like a lot of those, you know, you'd mentioned a lot of them are streams more so than rivers. It seems like you do a lot of wade fishing these streams or there are a lot of smaller systems in Colorado. Do you guys fish from a drift boat much or is it mostly wade fishing?
Katie
Never for me, there are drift boats. I do not own a boat. I kind of like to get a raft. I feel like I'm more inclined to get a raft for the rivers we have around here and I like the idea of being able to use it to pack raft other things or pack raft just for fun. But people do definitely drift. I feel like the culture around here is less, around drift boats than I think of in other states, but it may also just be the rivers I'm near. Like I'm near a lot of wade fisheries. I'm near the South Plant where people wade. The Colorado definitely gets drift boats. I'm just not particularly close to the Colorado. I'm a couple hours away. So maybe that's why I'm a little biased or not even, bias isn't the right word. It's just not, it doesn't come to mind for me, boating as much as wading does. Part of it's also that I kind of avoid a lot of the bigger rivers just because of the crowds that they get. like the South Platte is one of those rivers that don't even bother having a secret spot because there's gonna be a guy 100 yards down from you, 100 yards up from you, and there might be people filling in in between. You're not gonna get alone time. And I don't really like that, so I tend to go to those smaller streams that are easily wadeable, shin deep, wet wading in the summer. That's kind of my ideal, but more so for the crowds than the actual fishing. But there are drift boats. It's just not, I don't have access to a drift boat, so I'm generally wading.
Brian
Wade fishing definitely takes more skill. It just, to be able to get your casts off the bank line, to be able to cover water effectively and efficiently. And, you know, not that it doesn't take skill to go catch them out of a drift boat, but it's a combination. When you team up with a really good buddy, then you have somebody that's really good on the oars that's rowing hard to try to get you into fish, and you're up in the front also trying to fish really hard to get into fish. But, you know, even fishing from a drift boat, we just use it for a lot of access as well. Like we have high water access here in Montana, but a lot of these systems, like even the Madison is a hundred miles long. And so, you know, to be able to float through and then stop in different sections and really work those sections is really efficient and effective. But yeah, a raft would be killer. You can just run, you can run more whitewater with it. You can run multi-day trips and it just seems like a bit more forgiving. They seem to drag a little bit more water than a drift boat, but it's all about the rivers you're fishing. It seems like every river has like a specific boat that's built for that river, that fishes the best on that river. And so, yeah, like you being in Colorado, I can definitely see a raft. And I have a couple of buddies that have rafts as well. And like when we go to the Olympic Peninsula, it's all you can use is a raft out there. There's very few sections where you can take a drift boat, just because of the whitewater out there. So definitely like getting the right tool for the job. But weed fishing is, it's so much fun to just park your rig and to go walk up a system and go try to figure it out. And I love what you said at the beginning of the conversation, like walking a couple miles and separating yourself from the pressure and finding your own experience. It's so fun. And you guys have some really big fish that sit in those streams as well. Colorado's, you guys have some big trout.
Katie
Yeah, we do. Like I said, because I'm kind of avoiding some of those more popular areas, I'm often not catching very big trout. Like occasionally I'll go out for 'em, 'cause I really wanna catch something big, but because I'm kind of, I value the experience I'm having generally more than the fish I'm catching. Sometimes I just go out with a goal, and I'm like, I wanna catch such and such fish. I wanna catch one that's 20 inches long, or I wanna catch a brown trout today, or I wanna catch a cutthroat. But most of the time, I'm just like, I wanna go fishing. And if that's my goal for the day, then I'm gonna craft that experience to be what I want, which is generally not seeing a lot of people, having some peace and quiet, getting to listen to the water. So I'm generally, like I said, going to those smaller streams, generally more remote streams or lakes. So I'm often catching a lot of really small fish, and small being, I don't know, like 10 inches is a great fish for a lot of the places I fish. but I'm catching a lot of native fish, the native cutthroats. I actually, I know we were maybe talking about sharing some stories from this summer, but this year, this summer I caught my first true, like pure strain greenback cutthroat trout. So that's our Colorado state fish. It's got kind of an interesting history. They thought that it was extinct for a while, and then they thought they found a population. So they went crazy and stalked this population all over the state and then found out not pure. They stocked something from the West Slope, I think. So then they did find one genetically pure strain in a small creek west of Colorado Springs. And now, I think starting in 2014, they started finally stocking that pure strain that they can confirm is the once thought to be extinct Colorado State fish. So, like I went and caught that pure strain this summer for the first time. So that was like a, that experience for me is a lot more meaningful than just going out to the South Platte and seeing if I can catch the biggest trout I can. We do have those big trout and I occasionally catch them, but it's usually not on the table for me when I go out fishing. I know for a fact that I'm probably not coming home with a monster most of the places I go fish.
Brian
Yeah, good for you. You're catering to the experience and not the fish. I think that's just a beautiful way you stated it too, is going out and trying to find that experience. that experience of having action and catching fish. And like, I love it when they're eating, you know, when they're eating hoppers or when they're eating a hatch or you got it dialed in and figured out and you're getting action in every good fishy spot, whether that's a deep cut bank or whether that's behind a rock or whatever it is, like that, that action is so fun. And it's what we all need to be chasing as well is just the experience. And sometimes I get caught up like a big fish really get me excited and I love chasing them around the state and I love chase. It's kind of what drives me, but it's not what makes me happy. What makes me happy is the experience that you talked about, like getting out, uh, uh, finding my own piece of water, trying to dial it in. Like that is the fun of it for me. And that's the most meaningful thing for me, but it seems like big fish, like motivates me to, to get out or to go tomorrow or like, I I'm, I'm an internal optimist where I always think I'm going to catch them but very rarely do. I'm always chasing that. I love what you stated, chasing an experience and catching that cutthroat Colorado state fish. That had to be an awesome experience. Did you research that river that held them and then went and fished it and dialed them in and caught a few of them that day?
Katie
Yeah, so actually we tried, I want to say either last year or two years ago, and they were stocked up in a lake up in northern Colorado and we went up there and it was just, it was terrible. I don't think we saw a single fish and we had maybe three or four people fishing, so that was kind of a bummer because that we're kind of counting on going up there and finding them. And then it wasn't until, and actually that lake was, I don't know if it actually burned or if it's just really close to the burn, but the Cameron Peak fire came through last year which I think ended up being the biggest in Colorado State history. So I don't know what that what that lakes up to right now but they I found out recently that they're they were put above a waterfall in a in a stream only about an hour from my house so yeah I went up there. One interesting thing I found looking for them was that I I feel like normally maybe you can share your experience on this too you know if fish are in a stream you expect to find them in specific pockets or features, but once you figure that out, you can kind of go the whole way up the river and fish all of that feature. Maybe they're in little pockets and you can fish all those pockets and you'll catch a fish out of each one or at least get a strike or a look. This was different. They were in very specific sections of the river and then other sections appeared to be completely barren. I'd find a group of them in maybe a 20 yard stretch of river and then I'd walk and walk and walk and I wouldn't see a single fish. I could walk straight up the river and not be spooking anything out of any of these pockets. And then I suddenly stumble into another glob of fish, you know, just grouped up. So I don't know why in this stream they're so sporadic, I guess, where they're located. But yeah, I did finally find a pocket. Of course it was surrounded by willows on all sides and I was getting my flies hung up like every other cast. But I did finally manage to get a couple to the net.
Brian
Good for you. That is so fun. I love catching new species like that. I fished a new system in Wyoming this past year and caught a tiger trout in it. It was a good one too, like a 19, 20 inch tiger trout. The tiger trout, like you probably know, I think it's a female brown trout and then a male brook trout that mates it. Then once they make a tiger trout, tiger trout they can't breed themselves. But super wild, like they weren't known for it in this stream, but it was a stream that had browns and had brook trout and sure enough caught a big tiger trout in there, which was super cool. I didn't even know what it was when I pulled it up. Like at first I was like, "Man, it looks like a...is that a brook trout?" Or you know some of the immature trout can look a little bit different where they're tough to identify, but finally able to figure out it was a tiger trout. It was the first one I I had ever caught. It's wild to go after and chase new species like that. It seems like you guys have that as well in Colorado. Have you tried any of the lowland lakes? I've heard what are the type of fish down there, the type of sucker that they fish for down there? It looks super fun. They call them freshwater bonefish.
Katie
Are you talking about carp?
Brian
Yeah.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. I actually just caught my first carp last week.
Brian
Did you? Oh, congratulations. How awesome.
Katie
It was, yeah, so carp has been on my list for a long time, but I was getting so frustrated because like you said, they're called the freshwater bonefish because of how hard they fight. At least I think that's why they're called that, but they're known for being really hard to get to take your fly. I had experienced that for years because I won't say I've been trying very hard. I've gone out a couple times a year for the past couple of years and I I didn't feel like I was making any progress. It's one thing to go out and be like, I didn't catch any fish, but at least I got some strikes and I just didn't get it to the net. And I was just getting no positive feedback. I was casting my fly blindly. I'd see fish, I'd spook them, they're super spooky. And I kind of gave up. I just stopped trying after a while. And then last week I was like, I'm gonna take the belly boat out and try to catch some bass. And as I'm kicking around, my foot hit some mud, out in the middle of the lake. And I was like, I feel like this is like a flats out here that no one else is, like no one else was in boats that day. It was all non-motorized at this point. And so everyone was just fishing from shore. And so I found this like flats area out in the middle of the lake where I could basically walk around on it. And the carp were so thick that at one point I had my fly just sitting in the water and I was messing around on my phone, like trying to look at a aerial view of the lake. And I got my fly hooked on a carp's back because there's so many of them. And that wasn't the fish I caught. I wouldn't have counted it had I caught it in the back. I did end up, yeah, I was just stripping my, I was stripping a woolly bugger along and just dragging it along the bottom on these flats. And yeah, accidentally hooked one out there looking for bass. So that was really exciting. And I was a little bit undergunned. I had a six weight and a belly boat. So I was getting dragged all over the place trying to get this thing in. I probably should have had an eight weight, but finally got to the net and it stretched the whole way across my belly boat from one side to the other. So that was nice.
Brian
Good for you, Katie. How awesome. Yeah, I hear those things are a real challenge to get to take your fly. How cool. And maybe you found like a new little honey hole out in your secret flat out there. That belly boat that you talk about, what do you use for a belly boat?
Katie
I've got a Caddis. I forget what the model is. I'm not sure how many different kinds they make, but I know the brand name is Caddis. And, or maybe Caddis is the model name. I'll have to look and I can send you the information on it. They're not very expensive. They're under $100, I think, at least when I got mine. There's other brands out there, too. It's just kind of like an inner tube, a heavier duty inner tube that's got a little hammock seat in between the two sides. It's kind of U-shaped. You just strap some fins onto your wading boots and just kick yourself around the lake. You can basically take them anywhere, because they deflate down to... You can put it in your backpack and backpack it up to the Alpine lakes, or just throw it in your car, already inflated and ready to go. And you can take them places that are limited on whether you can have motors. So if it's if it's non-motorized only you can have them. And you can get them into a lot of places that other people can't get their boats just because it's it's only a couple feet across. So you can get into some pretty tight areas. The only downside is you can only move as fast as you can kick. So if a storm comes up and you're out in the middle of the lake you're gonna have you're gonna it's gonna take a while to get to shore unfortunately. But apart from that, yeah, it's really convenient. You can blow it up by mouth in, I don't know, probably 10 minutes. So it's just really versatile and can get you a lot of places that you might not be able to get to otherwise.
Brian
What a great tool. Yeah. And packable as well. So you can pack it into these legs. Yeah. So I think of those as like the float tube. Yeah. So you've got the fins that you kick around on. Yeah, that works good. Like there's so many tools that help us in our pursuit these fish and just give you access to different places and float tubes definitely one of them but yeah good on you on that that carp you got to send me a picture of it those things are pretty cool
Katie
yeah I've got I've got one really hilariously bad photo of it because I was in this little boat with the carp I was holding it under my arm like a football because I couldn't I couldn't hold it in either way so I got a selfie with it under my arm like a football that's the only picture I've got but I can send it to you because it's it's kind of funny
Brian
Pictures are a real challenge while we're fishing isn't it If you've got a good buddy with you, it's no big deal. Usually, you carry iPhones, which take great photos. I love to have my big camera in the boat or take my big camera in my pack in a waterproof bag. If you've got a buddy, you can get the most stellar photos. I fish a lot by myself. Solo photos of fish are so challenging. I'll catch some really good browns that I'd like to have a good photo of. I've messed up so many photos over the years. My new system, I used to bring my big camera and I'd bring my tripod and my pack and then I'd set it up before I fish the hole and then fish the hole and it's such a pain. My new system is just an iPhone cameraman and I actually, I'll set it up against my fishing bag if I catch a good fish. I carry a net with me so I can net the fish and so I don't have to try to hold it while I'm setting things up or what. Net the fish and then I take my iPhone and I lean it against my camera bag. it's kind of got a spot in the top. And then I turn the camera around so I can see it and then I'll just self film it. And then just pull the fish out of the net and hold it up once and then stick it back down and then I'll pull a screen grab for that. That's kind of my system. Do you have any specialized system that you came up with for capturing a photo? It's gotta be tough like in that boat, in the middle of the lake too, there's not much you can do out there.
Katie
Yeah, in the boat, selfies I think are the only option if you wanna be in the photo with your fish. I feel like if I catch something small enough, like trout, I can just hold it out in my hand and it'll just be an awkward angle, but I'll make it work. Most of the time I'm not in the boat though. And like you said, I like your strategy of start the video. Sometimes I feel like I don't get great quality images from it, pulling the screenshots, but sometimes it does work. I think it depends on which screenshot you're trying to grab. Like if the fish is flopping, you might only have one or two where the fish is in a good position. And if those ones happen to be blurry, sometimes it can be disappointing. But if your fish is holding still, I like that video option. Otherwise, a lot of the times I'll just take a picture of the fish without me in it. And then I can maybe just set it down in the water, like find some shallow water and lay it down. So it's kind of resting on the bottom, but it still has water, like it's not laying on the dry land and I might just take a picture like that. Also, a lot of the time, unless the fish is really pretty, I'll just forego the photo if I don't have somebody with me. If I've got someone with me, I'll start taking pictures of a lot smaller fish just because I've got someone there to do it. But if it's just me, unless I'm catching like a new species or a giant fish, I'll usually just let it go and skip the photo altogether. But I haven't found a foolproof system. I'm not willing to carry a tripod or anything and like a remote or set the timer. I'm just not willing to do that 'cause I guess I'm just too lazy for the picture.
Brian
No, I don't blame you. Well, again, it goes back to the experience too. And it takes away from the experience if you're stressed out about trying to get a good photo. It's just like some of these, you know, and a lot of times, you know, I've just gone for the experience and caught a bunch of good trout over the years that I have no photos of, which is no problem. Like I had, like I've got the great memories, but like I had this, I caught a 28 inch brown one time and didn't have a camera with me or anything. And the very next cast, I caught a 25 inch rainbow no camera or anything, which is fine. It's like this experience that I'll always remember, you know, but sometimes it's nice to try to grab a photo and especially like when I'm when I'm targeting big fish with streamers, it's like, it's nice to shoot over a photo to your buddy and say, "Yeah, I got a good one today" or whatever. And it's not a fish story, but I'm with you too. It can't take away from the experience.
Katie
Yeah, as I say, don't get me wrong. If it's a big fish, I'm gonna want a good photo, especially if I've got someone there we're gonna do a little photo shoot but I guess it all comes back to the fact that I just don't catch as many big fish it sounds like as you do.
Brian
I don't know about that. You do well for yourself. Well Katie it is so fun to chat with you. I'm so glad that I could have you on the podcast. You do so good being a podcast host and you're so knowledgeable and so deep in your own journey of fly fishing so I really enjoyed the conversation today.
Katie
Yeah, absolutely. I'm always happy to talk fishing, so I appreciate you having me on.
Brian
Okay, yeah. Thanks a bunch, Katie.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. It's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.