Ep 63: Wilderness Fishing, with Shawn Larson
Shawn Larson has been on a mission to backpack all the Wilderness areas in Colorado. Although he hasn’t quite completed his goal yet, over the course of his trips, he’s gotten to fish in the majority of the Wildernesses. In this episode, Shawn and I crack a few beers and hear some fun stories from his time in the backcountry chasing wild fish.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 63 with Shawn Larson on wilderness fishing. crack the beers here we go cheers cheers I think you're my third in-person podcast those are the only ones that get the beer crack oh all right well we can get rolling I know you were trying to spoiler me with all your history on on your fly fishing so now go ahead and why don't you tell me how you got started in fly fishing
Shawn
so I've I grew up fishing just with a spin spin cast reel and sort of gravitated to flies using the fly in the bubble method and worked with some buddies that started fly fishing and tying their own flies. And so I just said, well, it sounds like it'd be fun to try. I had kind of tried it with a really old, cheap fly rod that was probably built in the 50s in an old reel.
Katie
Where'd you get that?
Shawn
I think I got it at the flea market. And it was, I used a rod that was reversible. So the butt section reversed. It was a fly rod on one side and a spin casting rod on the other.
Katie
Oh, weird. I don't know if I've ever heard of that.
Shawn
It was an eagle claw.
Katie
I mean, if I had to guess what that was, that's what would have come to mind. The old eagle claw.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. So anyway, it was because I had some buddies that were fly fishing and just got into it. And that was probably 1993 or 4, I think. And we just kind of got into going on trips together. We worked together and four or five of us would take a weekend and go to the Arkansas or, you know, what have you, just sort of bloom from there.
Katie
So are you from Colorado originally?
Shawn
Yes, born and raised.
Katie
Okay. I think you might be the first person I've had on here that both lives here now and was born here.
Shawn
A rare native, yes.
Katie
And one of the, I don't want to disparage anyone, but one of the cool ones. I feel like I noticed that a lot of the natives I meet, it's like, well, you were born here, but like, okay. A lot of the people who came here, it's like they came here because they're fun and they like to do fun stuff.
Shawn
Right.
Katie
So you might be one of the few natives I know who's actually taking advantage of what the state has to offer. Yeah.
Shawn
I mean, the color is deep in my blood. So it's hard to leave.
Katie
Yeah, I'm sure. So walk me through how you got from getting started to where you are now. It sounds like you do a ton of fishing. You obviously are a mutual friend with Jon, who was on a couple episodes ago. So how did you progress from your double-sided lightsaber-esque spin and fly rod to where you are now? And how did you meet Jon?
Shawn
So just the progression. Obviously, when you first start out, you buy less expensive gear just because you're not sure. Sometimes you're going to really take advantage of it and use it. And you start to realize that that gear isn't the greatest quality. And so it just, you know, kind of evolves from there and you step up in better and better equipment as time goes on and you get more into that activity. So that was sort of the progression. And, you know, I said, oh, I'm never going to own more than one fly reel. And now I have five, six. I don't know.
Katie
I remember that stage, too. I'm like, I can do everything with this. Yeah. It's like, but I could have more.
Shawn
Yeah. So, oh, yeah, I got a two weight and a three weight and a four weight and a five weight and an eight weight.
Katie
Right. Because it really matters. every single size, but I feel you. I'm like, if I could just have one of every weight.
Shawn
Yeah. So, so yeah, it was just kind of a natural, you know, progression that I probably every fly fisherman goes through where you just want to have better gear and different gear for different situations. You know, fighting a big fish in Alaska is going to take different gear than, you know, fishing Bear Creek here in, in, in Denver's. So, you know, that, that's just sort of the progression of getting into more, more and different equipment. Um, I met Jon, oddly enough, listening to one of your previous podcasts with Jon, I think you and I found him in a very similar fashion. Um, a blog that he wrote about finding golden trout in Colorado. And I don't remember what I was, I think I was searching for golden trout, just poking around because I knew they had been stocked in various lakes throughout Colorado, and I was just curious if anyone had found them and posted anything on the web about golden trout. So I found his blog post and contacted him through there, and we had just literally within, I think it was a week or two, of one another done a trip in the Weminuche wilderness. He did a long trip in the Weminuche Wilderness, and I had also done one that summer. So we'd been a lot of the same places and just had a lot of the same interests and just sort of, you know, friendship bloomed from there. He came over, and I think the first time I met him was we tied flies together.
Katie
Makes you wonder how many friends Jon has just from this blog post here.
Shawn
A lot, I think. Yeah, I think a lot.
Katie
Yeah, I don't know if you – did you just email him? That's what I did. I just sent an email and was like, hey.
Shawn
Yeah, I think I just sent him an email and said, hey, you know, I think we have a lot in common. And, you know, I'm interested in hearing more about your adventures. And, you know, our tents were almost identical. And I mean, we just had a lot of similarities in what our interests and the gear we use, etc. So, yeah, it's a cool guy to hang out with.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that's not that rare for people to get together via email, like after reading someone's blog post. But I think what's required to actually make it stick is the proximity. Like I remember I found out that he lived, you know, 20 minutes from me. And I was like, oh, we could actually meet up and grab a beard together. Yeah. And it's like I could have easily emailed many other people on the Internet. And I have like emailed tons of people. And it's like I kind of know them through email, but I wouldn't really consider them a friend. Just because they might be in a different state or something. And just that proximity to him made it a lot easier to kind of follow through.
Shawn
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
So I wanted to ask you something based on something you mentioned earlier, just your progression of like you want to get more gear and better gear. are you of the belief that people put way too much effort into gear and not enough into just making their gear work like a nine foot five weight can take care of most of what people are trying to to catch and people might just be blaming their gear like I can't catch that because I don't have the right stuff or are you of the belief that you should spend as much as you can afford and get the best thing that's out there that is in your budget like do you have a have a thought on that?
Shawn
I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I'm kind of a gear junkie. Okay.
Katie
No, I mean, that's your answer, I guess. I was just wondering.
Shawn
No, but, you know, everyone has their own style. And I say, you know, if you can do with what you have, and that makes you happy, that's all that matters. You know, you can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on gear, tens of thousands of dollars. And it just depends on how much you do it. I mean, if you're only an infrequent fly fisher, you probably don't need to spend a lot on having four or five, six different rods versus if you do it for a living, obviously then you're going to wear gear out. You need to have different gear for different types of fishing sometimes.
Katie
Well, I mean, and honestly, part of it's just the fun of looking at gear and having gear. I mean, at the end of the day, I can probably catch like a six weight could handle pretty much everything I'm fishing for in Colorado, unless I wanted to go after like some big pike or giant bass. Yeah. But for the most part, I could get away with that, but it's like, it's more fun to fight a smaller fish on a smaller rod. And it's just fun to have multiple rods and be like, which one do I want to use today? You know, it's just, that's part of the fun.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. Well, off the podcast, we were talking about using Tenkara. That's just another whole set of different type of gear that you can use. A friend of mine referred to me once or told me once that I'm sort of a fly fishing omnivore. I will do whatever it takes to catch a fish. Yeah, I like that. Whatever kind of gear it takes to catch a fish.
Katie
I've kind of even been getting more into that outside of fly fishing. So like I grew up spin fishing, but there was a period where I basically wrote off anything but fly gear. Like I just wanted to dedicate myself to fly fishing. And I think I've done enough fly fishing at this point. like it's still my favorite method of catching fish, but I'm kind of coming back around to, if I think that's not the most effective way to fish a body of water, I'm kind of getting back into like, you know what, maybe I'll jig for walleye because I kind of want to catch a walleye. And it's starting to come back to whatever I'm, whatever is going to be the best way to catch a fish. And if all else is equal, I'm going to choose a fly rod. And like for trout, I have really no interest in spin fishing for trout, but there are species that it's just difficult to target on a fly rod or or you know if you're trying to fish in 100 feet of water for lake trout at the bottom like it's probably just not the best
Shawn
it's kind of tough with a fly rod
Katie
yeah right exactly I'm starting to just get more appreciative of the fishing part of it like the catching the fish and less less concerned about how I did it sure but in that same vein it's like there are also times where I'm like yeah I want to do this one thing this one way like I want to catch it on this fly. So, you know, on the other hand, sometimes I am so focused and I'm like, it's, I don't even want to do it if I can't do it in this particular way. But it comes down to like situation to situation too. So I don't know if that's kind of like the same boat you're in.
Shawn
Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, kind of on that same topic of you switch from fly fishing to to spin fishing and jigging for walleye I did a trip to I was invited to do a trip to Canada to fish for walleye and pike and I only brought one fly rod actually I brought two one was just a backup because I broke it okay yeah so I was using primarily an eight weight that john hill actually yellowfin rods built for me shout out shout out for john yeah and we did a a day it was it was a derby day just to see how many walleye we could catch and I was I was catching fish in all the days previous but for whatever reason I was really struggling on this one day and finally I was like you know what hand me a spin cast rod and let me jig off the bottom because I just could not catch a walleye. And it's hard, even with the sinking line, to get down there and jig with a fly rod. It just doesn't work well.
Katie
It's different.
Shawn
It's totally different.
Katie
Yeah.
Shawn
So I put my fly rod away. I got a spin casting rod, and I was jigging, and I was catching fish.
Katie
Yeah, I think it comes down to I'd rather catch a fish on a spin rod than not catch anything on a fly rod. I'd rather catch a fish on a fly rod generally, but I'd rather catch a fish than nothing at all.
Shawn
I just love catching fish.
Katie
Right.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Yeah, that's interesting. My next venture is bait casting. I've never really used a bait casting rod. And I've got plenty of experience with spin gear. And sometimes that's the right thing. But sometimes bait casting is the right thing. And I feel a little bit out of my element. Like I bought a bait casting rod. I'm like reading the instructions and going on YouTube. I'm like, this is what it felt like to start fly fishing. And it's fun to kind of be so new that you make like large progressions. Like I'm sure that you've been fly fishing long enough that when you go out, you might learn a thing or two every time you go out. But you're not making like big strides in your fly fishing. Like you're generally pretty solid. But when you first started fly fishing, the first five times you went out, you probably increased your skill like many times over every single time. And that's like a fun stage to be in. Every time you come out, you're like, I learned so much today.
Shawn
You learn a little bit of, you know, oh, this is how this works.
Katie
Right.
Shawn
You learn from your mistakes. Just don't make the mistakes more than once.
Katie
Or just make them over and over again like most of us do. So tell me how you got into this project of fishing all the wilderness areas in Colorado.
Shawn
Well, I didn't fish all of them. It was more of a, it was a, it was a goal of mine to backpack every, every wilderness area in Colorado. And I was very much interested in, in fishing as well, fly fishing. And so, you know, the rod always came with me and wherever I went, I tried to find some place to fish. Didn't always work out. I think there were five out of all of them that I ended up not fishing.
Katie
Is that just because there wasn't a ton of water or like where you were?
Shawn
It was part of it or I just, you know, I was more focused on just getting there and there wasn't a convenient place to fish. It usually ended up being a lake, but every once in a while, some of the wilderness areas, there weren't any lakes. And so I just fish a small stream. So it was more where I went within the wilderness than anything. But it was what inspired me. Well, there was a couple things that inspired me was I had blown out my knee skiing. And I've always loved backpacking. I've been backpacking since I was a young teenager. And so when I blew out my knee, one of the first things that I thought was, oh my gosh, am I ever going to be able to put a backpack on again? That literally in the hospital, I'm sitting there with my knee blown out. And that's the first thing I think about was, am I ever going to be able to backpack again? And so when I finally got my knee recovered and I wore a brace for a number of years, I decided, you know, life is too short. Carpe diem. Um, I, I said, I need to go, you know, see if I can do a, do a trip. Uh, and so I hired a lady and did a, a llama trip into the flat tops wilderness. Um, and I was like, all right, well, this is going to be a good test for me. I won't have to carry my, my gear. The llamas will carry my gear, but it'll give me a test of, can I walk in five miles or six miles with my knee in the condition that it's in? and have a day pack and it'll just be a good test. So everything went well. And I hadn't really done a whole lot of backpacking into many wilderness areas in Colorado. Up until that point, I'd been to, you know, the Sangre de Cristos, the Collegiates. And I'd never even heard about the Flat Tops Wilderness at that time. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool. There's a fishing there.
Katie
Yep, there's fishing.
Shawn
Okay, let's do it. It's probably one of the fishiest wilderness areas in Colorado. Yeah, there's some phenomenal fishing in the flat tops. Yeah, there's some great fishing there. But so anyways, that just kind of led me to start thinking about life is short. You got to take advantage of, you know, opportunities. And I found a book, Colorado's Wilderness Areas by Jon Fielder.
Katie
I'm going to take a picture of that.
Shawn
And this is the first edition. So it's a really old edition. It's got all kinds of notes and scribbles and all kinds of things in it. But that was my Bible. And as I started looking at more and different wilderness areas, I thought, well, shoot, that'd be kind of cool to just backpack every one of them. And so I'm dating myself here. But when I was 30, it was 1996, I said, I want to backpack every wilderness area in Colorado. By the time I turned, by the end of the summer, I turned 35. So I gave myself five years. And there were 33 of them at the time.
Katie
Are there more now?
Shawn
Yeah. There's 41, I think, or two.
Katie
I'm always surprised. Like, I still learn new ones. Most of the big ones I feel like I'm familiar with or have visited myself. But occasionally I'll be scrolling around on X and I turn on Wilderness and I'm like, oh, there's a wilderness area there that I had no idea about. And it's, you know, the farther you get from Denver and the smaller the area, it's easy to find new ones that you've never heard of.
Shawn
So there were 33 at the time. There's eight more now. So what is that? 41. Yeah. So, yeah. So there's quite a few more. Some of them were proposed wilderness areas at the time. So when I backpacked into Rocky Mountain National Park, it was a proposed wilderness at the time. And it's now our wilderness.
Katie
But Indian Peaks or?
Shawn
Rocky Mountain National Park.
Katie
Is that considered a wilderness area?
Shawn
Yeah. So there's parts of it that are considered a wilderness. Same with the Great Sand Dunes. Parts of that have been designated wilderness.
Katie
I guess I thought they had different names. I thought Indian Peaks basically butted up to Rocky Mountain, but they were technically different.
Shawn
They are. So you've got Indian Peaks Wilderness, and then within Rocky Mountain National Park itself, there are certain portions of it that are designated official wilderness.
Katie
Okay, I didn't know that. I just assumed that it was a completely separate ordeal.
Shawn
They're separate designations, but within – it's fairly new.
Katie
Do you know where in Rocky Mountain it is?
Shawn
I don't know where the boundaries are, But I think it's a couple different sections. So the southern section, kind of forest, I can't think of it. Forest Canyon? Forest Canyon area, I think that's part wilderness. And then the farther northern section of the Rocky Mountain National Park, I think is also designated wilderness. I can't remember where the exact boundaries are.
Katie
Do you know what it's called? Is it just Rocky Mountain National Park wilderness? It's just Rocky Mountain National Park wilderness, yeah. Huh, learn something new every day.
Shawn
Same for the Great Sand Dunes. a portion of that because the that whole area was the the national park was expanded into the Sangres the Sangre de Cristo mountains and they so that portion that is the park is also wilderness
Katie
okay yeah I thought that was another one of those like wilderness butts right up against the national park
Shawn
yeah but it's a it's a wilderness within the park
Katie
it makes sense a lot of I mean national parks are pretty built up with roads and stuff but the parts that are not built up with roads. A lot of them are, you might hike 10 miles in and see absolutely nobody and there's nothing there. So, I mean, it makes sense that there would be an area within the national park that could be designated as wilderness.
Shawn
I mean, 90% of the people that visit park probably don't ever get off the road. Yep. Yep. So, I think Mesa Verde was, is there's parts of Mesa Verde that national park, they're also wilderness. I think that is, and I've just realized that when I was looking these things up recently. I think that's a fairly new designation. So yeah, there's more now that I should probably do.
Katie
Yeah. So I don't know if we're getting ahead of ourselves here, but I think you mentioned that you had done all but maybe three. And were the ones that you hadn't completed ones that had been newly created and that's why you hadn't done them? Or had you just not quite finished your list yet?
Shawn
I backpacked all of them. I wasn't able to fly fish in all of them.
Katie
Okay. And have you backpacked all of them at this point? Or are there new ones?
Shawn
There's new ones. Those eight new ones I have not backpacked.
Katie
Okay.
Shawn
So yeah, and some of them are more desert. So Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Gunnison Gorge. There's one that is, I can't think of the name of it. It's over on the western slope near Colorado National Monument.
Katie
I think I've seen that one on the map.
Shawn
Yeah, and then there's a little tiny one that's actually up on the border of Wyoming, the North Platte wilderness that goes into Wyoming.
Katie
Oh, interesting. I think I'm going to be up there at the end of November.
Shawn
Yeah, there's a little tiny section in Colorado.I haven't looked at what the boundaries are, but it's somewhere there along the North Platte.
Katie
Is it actually larger, but it's mostly in Wyoming? Or is it actually just really tiny?
Shawn
The Colorado portion is small, but I think it extends into Wyoming. It might have a different name when it gets into Wyoming.
Katie
Like in the Medicine Bow National Forest area?
Shawn
Yeah, on the west side there of the Medicine Bow. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, there's more. The Spanish Peaks was one that was proposed for a long time. And then there's some down around Durango that were proposed at the time. I didn't go into some of these roadless areas that were proposed wilderness. And there's more that are still proposed that just haven't been designated. So the list grows.
Katie
Now, did you have like stipulations for yourself on what counted in terms of like, I feel like backpacking is pretty clear. Like if you carry your stuff in and sleep a night, you know, in a tent that you carried in a backpack, that's backpacking. Was that separate from your goal to fly fish or was it like I have to fly fish while I'm backpacking or could you just like walk in for the day? And how rigid was your?
Shawn
So I did have some rules. I figured, well, I've got to have some ground rules because, you know, whenever you're setting a goal like that for accomplishing something, there has to be some guidelines. So my guideline was I'm going to backpack. And my official, you know, rule around backpacking was I need to go in at least a mile and I need to spend the night. So, I mean, that's pretty liberal.
Katie
Right. Like it wouldn't be considered like a big hardcore backpacking trip, but technically you stayed there and you were away from civilization a little bit.
Shawn
I think the easiest one I did was because there was a trail and it was downhill from the parking lot was in Sarvis Creek, which is just south of Steamboat. I went in a mile, maybe, and camped next to the creek in a fish for brook trout in Sarvis Creek.
Katie
The deadfall back there is incredible in a bad way.
Shawn
Yeah. Yeah, it's the same in the flat tops.
Katie
Yeah, but the flat tops at least has big areas of meadow in between the trees.
Shawn
Sarvis Creek, not so much.
Katie
Yeah, Sarvis Creek's just like valleys of deadfall. And so, I mean, the Zirkels are kind of the same way.
Shawn
Yeah, I think everywhere in Colorado now has just so much more deadfall from the beetle kill than it used to. It's crazy.
Katie
Yeah, that area is the worst I've seen, though. It's like up in that steamboat area, which we love that area. But man, going off trail there is quite an adventure.
Shawn
Yeah, it's brutal. Yep.
Katie
So what was, you said that was the shortest you did. What was the longest you've done?
Shawn
So the longest trip was kind of one of the highlights actually of my five years of backpacking wilderness areas. I did a, I took two weeks off from work and I did two back-to-back one week long backpack trips. So I spent a week as far about north as you could in Zirkel, had one day off to unpack, repack, get a massage, and then went down to the South San Juan and backpacked almost to the New Mexico border in the next week. So that was nine days in on Saturday and out on the following Sunday. Probably a lot of driving in between. There was a lot of driving in between, yeah. We had to do a car shuttle in the South San Juan because we did a point-to-point on the CDT.
Katie
Okay, cool.
Shawn
The Continental Divide Trail. So it was 42 miles of just amazing. We dipped below 11,000 feet, I think, twice, where we camped below 11,000 feet. So we were above treeline the entire time. It was just phenomenal. And I think we only saw two groups of people for the entire week.
Katie
Wow.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
So it was pretty amazing. That you marked on your sheet beforehand, the Zirkel San Juan trip, which it sounds like was one of your favorites. Yeah.
Shawn
That combo. Yeah. It was pretty amazing. Just being out for two weeks straight, being at altitude for that long. I felt superhuman when I came back to Denver and do a day hike. It's like, hey, I'm used to being 11,000 feet. My body's got all kinds of extra oxygen in it.
Katie
Right. It's like when we travel back to our families on the East Coast and we can go for a run and Yeah. Just run, run, run endlessly.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So that was pretty phenomenal.
Katie
Did you have any highlights from the fishing in particular on those trips? Like any unique species you caught or just really cool places you got to fish?
Shawn
No unique species. In Zirkel, we did. I had always been sort of eyeing this drainage in Zirkel that had no, the entire drainage had no trails in it. And there's a few of them in there. So we bushwhacked up into a drainage, and there were three lakes sort of stair-stepped in elevation up the drainage and camped in the middle one and just fished all three. And I actually, my buddy that I was with got blisters about the size of silver dollars on both of his heels. So he was pretty much in camp, and I wanted to go check out these other lakes. And I actually spent the day, I hiked out of the drainage, bushwhacked up over the Continental Divide, down into another drainage on the other side, and fished a lake over there and came back just by myself. And I didn't see a single person the whole time. It was pretty awesome.
Katie
Yeah, people, we were talking before we started about just how crowded Colorado is getting. But it's not that hard to get away from people if you just leave a trail.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Like leaving a road isn't going to get you away from people. You know, if you hike five miles back, but you're on an established trail that people are logging every day on all trails, you're not, I mean, you're still going to see probably dozens of people. But the moment you leave a trail, which is something that really only seems to happen for me when I'm either fishing or hunting. Like it doesn't happen a lot via other activities. Like biking kind of stays on trails. I know, I guess climbers probably get off the trail every now and then, but there's often a trail to where the good climbing spots are. But fishing and hunting really take you away from people just because if you want to go somewhere that there's not a trail too, you're going to just leave it. And the moment you get off that trail, you stop seeing people.
Shawn
Yeah, absolutely. It used to be, well, the distance is now getting longer as Colorado gets a bit more crowded. But I used to have the three mile rule because you start losing the day hikers. I had to expend that to the five mile rule where you start losing the day hikers. And now it's probably closer to seven mile rule. but if you know you go at least seven miles in you're going to start losing a lot of the day hikers that you know just kind of come and go but yeah getting off the trail in fact that's how I find a lot of the lakes that I fish is I'll just open up a map and I'll find a lake that doesn't have a trail to it it's like okay I'm going to go there and Jon hates me for it because I've drugged he and Jon or he and Tommy to some of the some of the worst places just trying to bushwhack in. So we've had some great adventures just trying to get into these lakes. And you never know what you're going to get when you get there.
Katie
Right. Because especially the ones off trail, you're probably not going to be able to get reports as much because they might get fished a handful of times a year. Sure. I don't want to blow up any spots. I don't even know if you were on this trip, but there's a spot in the circles that he has told me about. And I'm not sure if you were on that trip. I was. He described it as being like one of the worst experiences of his life was getting in there
Shawn
yeah I think we climbed over probably a thousand trees down trees it was crazy yeah yeah I know the exact trip that he's talking about
Katie
yeah I was like was it better or worse than golden trout? Because the golden trout you know the spot that the he wrote the blog post about was not easy to get into either it was probably one of the harder hikes I've done and a lot of that was off trail over deadfall as well but I know what the circles are like and if I copied and pasted the circles onto what I did on Golden Trout I would describe it as way worse just because Golden Trout had at least a decent amount of walking over boulders or meadows instead of forests
Shawn
Boulder fields pose their own unique challenge to cross with a backpack on
Katie
as a short person deadfall is worse for me because I might be trying to step over something as tall as my waist
Shawn
I agree when you got a 50 pound pack on your back and it's like I can't go under it. I got to go over it. And it's up to my chest. How do I do this?
Katie
Yeah. I distinctly remember watching my friend fall onto her backpack and she like, couldn't get up because like feet were up on the tree and backpack was on the ground underneath there. And she's like, I can't get up. Like a turtle. Yeah. And I think, I think I remember Jon mentioned that he like broke some trekking poles. Yeah. He broke both of those trekking poles.
Shawn
Yep. Yep. I think everyone went down on that trip, in one way or another, just because of, you know, no trail, lots of trees, vegetation that was waist high. So you couldn't see where you're stepping, super wet rain the whole time we were there. Uh, yeah, it was, that was amazing. That was, yeah. Well, I actually want to go back. The, the, the other three are like, you're crazy, man. We're not ever going to go back there.
Katie
Well, he told me about another guy that, he knows, and I kind of know via like an Instagram message thread. Uh, and he said that he had great luck up there. So I guess, I guess it might be worth going back. He hasn't sold me on trying to get up there.
Shawn
I also found that there are whitefish in that, in the, in the river.
Katie
Now you're talking. Yeah. That's, that's my favorite thing.
Shawn
And I kind of wanted to stop on the way down and fish and everyone was just so focused on getting the heck out of there that we didn't fish. But I would love to go back because I think you can get to, to spots where you could fish fairly easily from the parking lot and not have to do a whole lot of work.
Katie
So I might need to discuss with you because I don't want to go off on a huge tangent, but I love fishing for whitefish. We actually just went this weekend specifically targeting whitefish and no one else seems to enjoy talking about them, but I love them so much.
Shawn
Yeah. Yeah. Grayling and whitefish are something that's very unique. Whitefish is, you know, native to Colorado and they're in super fast, you know, small streams and they're fun to catch. They're hard to catch. They have a little tiny mouth. Mouths hard to hook sometimes.
Katie
Yeah, they're hard to hook. I like them because they put up a bigger fight than a trout. I feel like the trout will give me a quick twitch on the fly rod but I can generally get them in pretty quick and the whitefish just like pulls. Yeah. And that's what I like.
Shawn
They love really swift water so they're fun to catch.
Katie
Yeah. But back to the Zirkels, was that your, would you say that's your favorite wilderness fishing experience you've had?
Shawn
Boy, it's so hard. I knew you were going to ask me what was my favorite wilderness. They're all so unique. I mean, the Flat Tops has some of the most amazing fishing. There's some big, big fish in the Flat Tops. They're not easy to get to. They're not easy to catch. Probably one of the most unique fishing experiences that I had was actually in the Weminuche Wilderness. That's just such a massive wilderness area.
Katie
I think that's the biggest one in Colorado.
Shawn
It is the biggest one in Colorado. second is flat tops the third actually is the Sangre de Cristos which doesn't seem like really
Katie
yeah I would have put that down like halfway down the list. I would guess lost creek was bigger, Zirkels was bigger
Shawn
yeah because it's just so long it doesn't seem like it's big because it's very narrow but because it is long size wise it's it's either the third or fourth I could look in the book here but anyways it's it's up there surprisingly that one has some big fish too yes absolutely it does there's some great some great places the song graves are steep they are gnarly they are one of the that's the hardest hike I've ever done I think is into some of the lakes in the Sangres
Katie
yeah it they're steep
Shawn
it doesn't seem like it would be that bad because it's just such a like a small blip on the map
Katie
yeah I mean it's just like a little ribbon of mountains and you're like yeah but in the deep mountains it would be so much bigger and It's like, no, they just come right out of the plains like a spire, basically.
Shawn
Yeah, you're going 1,000 feet plus per mile in some of those trails. But one of my favorite for just the fishing experience was probably the Weminuche. We spent an entire week and took us three days between driving and hiking to get to the final destination where we wanted to set up base camp. So, yeah. So just to get down there is, you know, a day's drive to Creed and then four wheeling in almost 30 miles to a trailhead and then a two-day trek into this lake. And I won't name the magazine because it'll probably give it away, but I didn't choose this location because of it. I found out like right before the trip, this particular location that I picked to set up base camp and fish the lakes around it was deemed the most remote spot in the lower 48 to backpack into.
Katie
Well, that's appealing.
Shawn
Yeah. And so I was like, oh, cool. I'm going there next week.
Katie
Oh, so you just found out by chance then.
Shawn
Yeah. I just was reading in this magazine an article about this place where I happened to be had already planned to go and this trip was already planned.
Katie
Was it a specific, like, I mean, how specific did they get? Did they say, like, this lake or this drainage?
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Shawn
It was very specific, yeah. There weren't any fish in that lake, oddly enough.
Katie
Well, that's a bummer.
Shawn
Yeah, it was a major bummer.
Katie
Did you know that going in?
Shawn
I think it had a history of being stocked. So it was possible. We spent three or four days camping next to this lake, and I never saw a rise, never saw a cruiser. I didn't walk entirely around it, but I mean, it was a pretty good sized lake, but I didn't see a single fish. Okay. And had some reports from some guys that were coming out as we were going in. And I asked him about a couple of places that I was thinking about. And they're like, yeah, we went there. We didn't see anything. And that's just, that's one of the things you, you know, you have to deal with when you're backpacking into high lakes is, you know, you can get, you can call the CPW or ask them about, you know, the stocking. but they stock it and they don't always necessarily have reports of what's the condition of the fish.
Katie
Right. I think Jon mentioned at one point asking them and they were like, you tell us when you go.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've given a lot of reports to the aquatic biologists at the CPW because they don't always have time to get to it. I mean, there's thousands of lakes in Colorado. They just can't get to them all. Right. And they don't always know the condition. And, you know, they may have gone there last year and that winter they winter killed. So you just, you don't know unless they happen to have been in there recently, you know, that summer.
Katie
Right. I think that's what I like having a couple different places to fish. Like if you're going in blind like that and you're not really sure, it's really nice to have a couple different spots in the area. That way if like when we went to the flat tops, I guess maybe two years ago now, one of the lakes there, I think Jon after the fact had told me that they caught a bunch of fish out of one of those lakes and we didn't see a single thing. And we're like, I guess, you know, maybe it's just died off since then. But then I think reverse, he was like, oh, we didn't see any fish in that lake. And I was like, oh, we caught a bunch of brook trout out of there.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
So it's like things just, you know, they change.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
But in the flat tops, it's not hard to find somewhere else to go. Oh, yeah. You're like, there's no fish in here. Right. But that lake over there that I can see has got fish.
Shawn
Yep. There's multiple lakes and any drainage. So yeah, when I did this trip in the Weminuche, there were literally lakes along the entire route. And we had to bushwhack to some other ones that, I mean, just getting into one of the drainages I was like oh there's two lakes over here I think I'd found that they had a history of being stocked but no idea there's no trail to them it's kind of a you know gnarly climb to get up over the ridge to get down into them and found amazing fish at one of them and the other one I think had been overstocked because all the fish were super stunted big heads little bodies and And I think I caught like 80 fish in the course of 30 minutes.
Katie
Oh, man.
Shawn
I mean, I was using a two-fly rig, and I was – literally the second that fly hit the water, there was like 10 fish after it because they were so hungry. It was crazy.
Katie
Hey, that needs a couple people to keep some fish out.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. It was definitely not in the healthiest of condition just because it was way overpopulated and the fish were just starving. It was fun to fish for them because you couldn't miss.
Katie
Right, he was going to turn down 80 fish.
Shawn
I was getting tired of pulling the fish off the hook because it was just literally every single cast.
Katie
That's when you go barbless, so you can just kind of shake them off.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. I always pinch my barbs just because it makes it so much easier to get the fish off.
Katie
Yeah. So tell me about the railroad because I think it was related to the Weminuche, the railroad. And it had never occurred to me to wonder whether a railroad counted as basically like motorized traffic because you're thinking things like bikes and cars and stuff like that or helicopters landing in wilderness areas. But I'm like, I don't know, railroad's kind of one of the more primitive modes of transport.
Shawn
It's kind of a cool deal. That was a separate trip from when I spent a weekend where it took us three days to get in. So that was my first trip into the Weminuche Wilderness while I was on my five-year trek to do them all. So there were four of us. We booked a ticket on the Durango and Silverton Railroad, which goes from Durango to Silverton, obviously. It was originally built during the mining era down there in the 1800s to carry the ore out of the mines and down to Durango to be processed. And so now it's just a tourist attraction. But you can purchase a one-way ticket either to Silverton or you can also purchase a ticket to be on the train with your backpack. And they actually throw your backpack in a different car that they have just for luggage and stuff. And you tell them where you want to get off and they will stop the train. You get off the train and they throw your – they literally don't hand you your backpack. They throw it off the train. So you better have your stuff packed well. They throw it off the train and see you later.
Katie
Wow, something was just added to my bucket list.
Shawn
Yeah, it's pretty cool. I assume they still do it. That was a long time ago, but I think I'm pretty sure they still do it. But you need to tell them which, and there are specific stops along the way that they will let you off.
Katie
Oh, so you can't do it just anywhere.
Shawn
Right. You have to tell them.
Katie
Oh, I thought you meant you could just give them GPS coordinates and be like, stop the train. I'm getting off right here.
Shawn
Yeah, they have certain stops where they will let you off. Okay. And there's some 14ers down in the Weminuche that I guess it's pretty popular to take the train and go up into this basin and climb the 14ers. We went to a different one just because we were trying to avoid people. And we didn't see a single person the entire week.
Katie
So does this border the wilderness or are you a couple of miles from the wilderness and you're walking through National Forest to get there?
Shawn
It's a cherry stem. So literally the wilderness boundary, once you get up in there, is right up against the railroad. So there's a, you know, I don't know, probably a couple hundred yards or so maybe between where the tracks are and the edge of the wilderness boundary.
Katie
Okay. So basically it's going through the wilderness, but not technically because it can't.
Shawn
Because it can't. Yeah. So there's a cherry stem basically. And the Weminuche was expanded to include some area on the west side of the railroad tracks in the Animas River. that didn't used to be there. So it literally just bisects the wilderness. There's sort of a chunk of the Weminuche that's off by itself that is completely separated by the railroad that goes through there. That's kind of an interesting setup. It is kind of cool. But we put our packs on and we hiked in about, I don't know, five or six miles and set up our tents up on this basin. It was just, it was amazing. Got some amazing sunsets and rainbows and there's all kinds of mining history. So there's some old mining operation, you know, buildings and old mines that were near where we camped. And unfortunately, there weren't any fish at the lake where we camped. And I made one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made while backpacking. We were just sort of rummaging around some of the old mines in the buildings. And I'd seen on the map there was a lake on a basin just above, sort of a mesa above where we were camped. And there was this couloir that went up that was just a total rock, really narrow 30-foot couloir that went up into this basin that was surrounded by sheer cliffs. I was like, well, I think we can get up there. We just scamper up this couloir. And I didn't have my fly rod. I left it back at camp. And I thought, I wonder if I should go back and get my fly rod. I was like, eh, there's probably not anything up there anyways. So get up there. It's full of rainbows. Why wouldn't you take your rod? I just I didn't feel like turn around and go back to camp number one yeah exactly carry my rod so I I always carry my rod now I just throw out my day pack no matter where I go it's always in my day pack
Katie
well that's kind of what we were talking about I mean this probably this trip probably wasn't you know you'd have to kind of plan for it but this is kind of the situation where we were talking about tenkara earlier where you're like I'm not really going to fish yeah but just in the off chance that there's something there I should throw this really lightweight yeah really hassle-free rod in my backpack. It takes up no space. That way, in case, I can pull it out pretty quickly and get some casts out.
Shawn
Yeah. I'll throw it in the back of my Jeep. If I'm going somewhere, it's like, I might find a small stream on the side of the road that I want to stop and just fish. I'll just throw my Tenkara rod in the back of the Jeep. And if I feel like stopping, I'll stop.
Katie
Yep.
Shawn
Makes it easy.
Katie
So one of the things that you marked on your list, maybe the most interesting thing that anyone's ever said they want to talk about, is cannibals, devils, and attack owl. I'm not even sure what any of that means, but I'm intrigued, and I want to know what trip resulted in that description.
Shawn
So about a quarter of my trips during this five-year period, I did solo. It's really hard sometimes to find someone to go backpacking with, especially... I mean, I took some time off in there, often work. So I was going during the middle of the week and it's hard sometimes just to find someone to go with. So I was going solo. So I had planned to do the Powderhorn Wilderness, which is between Lake City and Creed. And I picked out where I wanted to go. I try to avoid places where there's a lot of people. So, you know, the guidebook says, oh, go to Powderhorn Lakes. It's popular. It's like, okay, well, I'm not going to go there. I'm right over the mesa from there. And it's called Devil's Lake. Yeah, Devil's Lake. And it was kind of interesting. I was by myself. And I don't know if you know the story of Alferd Packer.
Katie
Yeah.
Shawn
The Colorado cannibal.
Katie
I think there's a restaurant named for him in Boulder.
Shawn
Yeah, there is. It's kind of funny. But there's there's a great book. It's out of print. I have a copy of it, but it was written by a local, I think he lives in, I think he actually lives in Littleton. He was a judge. He's a retired judge. He wrote this book. He wanted to get the facts about, you know, Alfred Packer. I don't want to go down on a tangent, but Alfred Packer, supposedly where he ate his victims was down in that area around Lake City.
Katie
When you say get the facts, is this in regards to, I feel like there's been, I don't, I don't know the story in detail. I just know him as like the cannibal guy who ate people in Colorado. But I think I am kind of familiar with what you're talking about. Like it's not fully certain whether he like killed and ate people or, you know, if someone in his group dies, like are they trying to survive off that? Like there's a bit of a difference between eating someone to survive and eating someone out of, I don't know, malice.
Shawn
Right. He didn't. Yeah. I mean, you have to just use the facts that are known. And, you know, it's his word against everyone else in that party that died.
Katie
So, yeah.
Shawn
Yeah. So what are you going to do?
Katie
So this judge is just trying to make like the best educated guess, I guess.
Shawn
Based on the facts that are known of the stories that were told during the court hearings, etc. So, yeah, he they were stuck down there in the winter and, you know, they were dying. And supposedly at least one of the guys that he was with came after him and he hit him with something in self-defense and killed him. And everyone in the party supposedly ate this person's flesh to survive because that's all they had.
Katie
I mean, wasn't part of the story that he had misled people by telling them that he was a guide that knew the way through the mountains and then he didn't and was just like basically leading them on a wild goose chase. because they weren't chasing anything, but was basically wandering through the mountains blind. It sounded like he kind of already duped them.
Shawn
Yeah, I mean, he did know they were going down the San Juans. They started in Breckenridge, which is, that's a long trek for walking. So, you know, maybe he didn't know the terrain, but it was in the wintertime, so they just, they got stranded. And, you know, they were freezing to death. They had to survive. You know, you see these stories elsewhere where people are eating just to survive, eating other people that die in certain circumstances.
Katie
I mean, I think most people, not that they'd want to eat a person, but like can at least kind of sympathize with if you're, if it's life and death for you to eat someone who's already dead.
Shawn
Right.
Katie
And, you know, that's going to keep you alive. I think most people would say, yeah, it's not great, but, you know, it is what it is. Right. But I feel like at least the sensationalized story about him was that he had not necessarily done it that way.
Shawn
Right. Yeah. So anyways, this area is near there, near that site, near Lake City. And the lake is called Devil's Lake.
Katie
Because of that? Or is it already called Devil's Lake? I don't think so.
Shawn
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know why it's called Devil's Lake, but that was the name of it. But it's right next to Cannibal Plateau. Right?
Katie
That surely wasn't named that before.
Shawn
So that was obviously because of its location and the history of that area. I was by myself, and I don't know why, but for whatever reason, I felt very uncomfortable when I was at the trailhead going up the trail. I mean, I had solo backpacked a lot, and so it was nothing foreign to me. I felt very comfortable backpacking by myself and going solo.
Katie
Was it just like an uneasiness of being in a place that just didn't have good juju?
Shawn
Yeah, I can't describe it. I just didn't feel comfortable. I was like, I don't know why I'm feeling this way. I was anxious about the trip, you know, packing my pack at the trailhead and going up the trail. And there was nobody up there. I was the only one. I was completely by myself. I didn't see a single person on the trail. There's nobody else in the trailhead. And I get up above Treeline, and it's a massive area of just unbroken alpine tundra. So there's nothing for, you know, it's very kind of flat and rolly. It's not, you know, a lot of big steep peaks. And I get up above treeline and I get to an area where there's, you know, some rock formations. And I kind of lean up against the rock formations, just kind of take a break. And I look over and there's these two little critter skeletons on the rock next to me. And I was like, oh, that's nice. And I was a mouse or, you know, a little ground squirrel or what. But they were just a skeleton, like an entire full skeleton. I was like, well, that's weird. I'm on Cannibal Plateau approaching Devil's Lake, and I got skeletons.
Katie
Well, I mean, at least they weren't human skeletons.
Shawn
They weren't human skeletons, thankfully. But still uneasy. Yeah, it was just weird. So I get down. I set up camp. I fish the lake. And it's just after sunset. I'm finishing my dinner. I'm just, you know, finishing up eating, cooking and eating my dinner, sitting in front of my tent. And I was, I don't know, I was probably 100 yards or so from the lake. And out of the corner of my eye, I kind of caught some movement. And I look over and I see something literally about two feet off the ground coming towards me, but it's hovering. And I was like, what the heck is that? So it was far enough away because it was, you know, way down by the lake. And as it starts approaching me, I'm thinking, well, that's an owl. And it's flying literally like, you know, I'm sitting on the ground. It's about my shoulder height and it's flying straight at me, straight at me. And it's not, you know, veering off. So it's very purposely flying towards me and it comes right to me and just does a real quick, you know, up and over my head. You know, I had to duck almost to keep it from hitting me. And so I was like, oh, that's weird. Why is this owl like attacking me? so you know I finished my dinner went to bed sometimes you have to get up in the middle of the night to you know go pee so I get up in the middle night I walk out to my tent and I saw movement like right on the side of my tent and I did you know I was like what the heck was that again I'm by myself so you know everything's you're on you're on hyper alert you know when you're by yourself and so I was like all right well whatever so I'm you know doing my thing and and I look over and this owl is doing the same thing. He's coming right at me.
Katie
Same owl?
Shawn
I assume it's the same owl. I don't know that for sure. It looks the same. It looks the same. I'm in the same area. And this is, I don't know, midnight, one o'clock in the morning. And it's coming at me the exact same way. And, you know, like comes right over my head, almost like he's trying to dive bomb me.
Katie
I don't think I'd handle this well.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Like I backpack alone sometimes, but something about this would not sit right with me.
Shawn
And so I'm thinking, what is possessing this owl, you know, five hours, six hours later to be doing the same thing to me? And I didn't really, you know, it was bugging me why this owl was doing this. And so when I got home, I started doing a little bit of research and I found that there are burrowing owls that live above treeline.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Shawn
I was probably somewhere near his or her burrow.
Katie
Which explains the rodent skeletons.
Shawn
Right, could be.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a lot better than it's haunted by the ghost of Alferd Packer.
Shawn
Yeah. But it was very unnerving that all these sequence of events and where I was and just the history of it all. But it was an amazing trip. There was a lot of forest fires that summer. And so the sunsets were on top of all this. The sunsets were like blood red. And I did see some cool. there was a whole herd of like 30 elk that were up on top of the ridge, probably, I don't know, a mile away at sunset, and they're just silhouetted on the ridge, and they actually made their way all the way down to my camp and walked right by me. Oh, that's cool. I just sat there behind a bush and just watched them come all the way down and walked right by me. It was pretty cool.
Katie
Yeah, that's a, I don't know, it sounds like it went from kind of a spooky experience to a more enjoyable and, I don't know, mesmerizing experience.
Shawn
But that was just, that was one of the most bizarre solo trips I've ever, I had ever had. I haven't had any, you know, I've never been anxious or felt like that before. Again, I don't know why, but it was just, it was weird.
Katie
It's easy, I think, when you're backpacking alone to get a little bit too much in your own head. I try to do it a couple times a year, usually just for a night or two, to face my fears. Yeah. Because I have like weird dreams sometimes when I'm backpacking alone. Like I'll wake up or I'll be, you know, that semi awake state where you're kind of asleep. You're kind of dreaming, but your senses are still firing a little bit. And I will like swear I hear something outside my tent or more often I feel like I see a headlamp outside my tent. Like I feel like my tent is lit up. That often happens if there's a full moon or something. I'm convinced that there's someone outside my tent. But one time there was, I woke up to a person outside my tent with a headlamp. And I think maybe that has like stuck. Yeah. It was the very first time I backpacked alone.
Shawn
That'd be a little, a little creepy.
Katie
Yeah. there was someone outside my tent looking for a missing hiker. So that was, you know, not a great introduction to backpacking.
Shawn
Yeah, right.
Katie
And I don't know if that's just stuck with me or what, but I often like startle awake thinking that there's somebody standing outside my tent looking into it with a headlamp. But I feel like that's kind of a little bit healthy to have, to put yourself in something that makes you come out feeling like you overcame some sort of uneasiness. And I think especially where you were, you know, in cannibal land, Which I'm happy to hear that the description did not involve actual cannibals. I was like, I don't know what this guy experienced when he was out there.
Shawn
No, I did not eat another human. I may have eaten some fish, but that was it.
Katie
Yeah, I saw that description. I was like, man, either he did something really awful or he witnessed something really awful.
Shawn
No. Yeah, it's good to face, do something that's uncomfortable. I think it makes you stronger mentally. and then you sort of get over that fear. It's like, oh, well, that wasn't so bad.
Katie
Yeah, it makes things after that seem not as bad. If you've got somebody with you, you're like, well, I've got a buddy here. This is great.
Shawn
Well, there's definitely risks to going by yourself. If you get yourself in trouble, you have no one but yourself to rely on. So there's been plenty of people that have died in the backcountry because they were solo and fell and hit their head and there's no one there to help them.
Katie
Do you carry any sort of outreach device, like an in-reach?
Shawn
I do, actually. So I actually carry two. I carry an ACR, is the brand. It's a personal locator beacon. So you can't text with it. It's literally just for an emergency. And that signal goes directly to the SARSAT satellites. So they go directly to the search and rescue satellites with NOAA. so it's extremely reliable and it has virtually no holes of service around the entire globe so I started carrying that because I you know was spending so much time I didn't have it back then because they didn't really exist but now I do I also carry an in reach now just because I can you know text somebody or get in get in touch with somebody if I want to or need to but it's a great idea if you're gonna even if you're not gonna be by yourself you know if you're yeah if you're 15, 20 miles two days in somewhere and you get hurt you know they're not gonna be able to carry you out
Katie
yeah I think it's sometimes abused
Shawn
oh I'm sure that there's people hitting you know oh I'm tired I need some help it's like no it's you know unless it's life and shouldn't be pushing that button death you
Katie
right I hope to never hit sos for any reason at all like I would I would I would call I would text a friend like I've got we just got an in reach recently and I would text a friend to help me hobble out with a broken leg before I'd hit SOS. Like bring a crutch in and we'll make it work.
Shawn
I mean, unless you are, you know, you've severed an artery and it's like, if someone doesn't get here right now, I'm going to die.
Katie
Right. I think that's kind of what my mindset is. If I'm not going to die from my injury, then I'm going to call a friend.
Shawn
Find your own way out. Yeah, exactly.
Katie
I like the in-reach because there was a part of me that was like, I like getting out of cell phone service and not having that, you know, like I could text somebody, I could call somebody, I could whatever. But I feel like the in-reach is, it's hard enough to send a text that it deters me from sending any sort of casual texts. Like I'm not texting anyone unless it's, hey, here's where I'm camped. You know, I'll be here tomorrow at four, meet me there. I have absolutely no desire to text anybody for fun. Yeah. So it still feels like you're at a cell phone service, but with just enough communication that you could relay a message to somebody if it would be beneficial to you. Right, right. So I've enjoyed that. But yeah, I feel like I went too long without one. I kind of feel like I was being a little bit irresponsible before because I was going out all the time without one.
Shawn
It's a good piece of equipment. I mean, that literally is the first thing that goes in my pack, whether I'm going out for a week or a day. It's just in my pack. I carry that and I carry a first aid slash survival kit that's always in the bottom of my pack, no matter where I go, no matter what I do. If I'm hunting, if I'm fly fishing for the day, backpacking, whatever, that thing is always in my pack. It's always with me.
Katie
Yep. I've actually never really had to get in my first aid kit, but I do carry a first aid kit and an emergency kit. So it sounds kind of like what you have combined, but I have them separated. An emergency kit's got like an extra compass, a lighter with some duct tape around it, et cetera, you know, reflection mirror, things like that.
Shawn
Yeah, space blanket. You know, if I had to, I could spend the night somewhere. It's probably not going to be very comfortable. But I even have some fishing line and a couple of flies that I threw in there in case I have to, you know, catch my dinner.
Katie
Yep, I've done that as well. I'm like one tiny indicator, a bunch of tippet and a couple of flies. And it's like, I'll, I'll get, I'll, I'll make something work out with a stick if I need to.
Shawn
Well, I actually practiced one time. We were, we went to, a Creek, west of the Springs and just were in there for the day. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to practice. Uh, so I cut a willow stick and I took, I had some, dental floss and I I tied on some, a little bit of fly line that I have in there. And I put dental floss on the end of that.
Katie
Oh, so you cut off like a short chunk of fly line.
Shawn
Yeah, I just wrapped some short fly line to, you know, tie into the stick to give some, something to be able to get some, you know, distance. And then I didn't, I didn't have any tippet. And so, but what I did have was dental floss. And so I thought, no fish is going to grab a fly that's tied with, on with dental floss.
Katie
There's some stupid fish.
Shawn
Well, brook trout are probably the most stupid.
Katie
I was going to say brook trout come to mind.
Shawn
So, you know, I tie on a little, I don't even know what it was, probably a pheasant tail or something. And I just flip it into the hole where I could see there were brook trout. And sure enough, they came up and grabbed it. And I probably caught eight or 10 brook trout of this one hole with that, you know, willow stick and some dental floss.
Katie
Well, that's the benefit of, like, you're probably not going to need this kit unless you're way back there. And if you're way back there, the fish are probably not very bright. Right. You know, if you're trying to survive on Cheesman Canyon, you might not catch anything, but like hopefully you're not needing your emergency kit in Cheesman Canyon.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. So, but yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, just to answer your question, I always carry something. And, you know, there's a lot of debate of, you know, carrying a firearm. But I always say I travel, especially when I'm going solo with my two best friends, Smith and Wesson. so you never know what you're going to run into whether it's human or non-human you know you just when you're there by yourself you got to take
Katie
right you know you got to take care of yourself I think either a firearm or bear spray isn't a bad idea to carry like again both for human and non-human bear spray I'm sure would work great on a on a perp outside your tent sure so I think I think carrying one of those is not a terrible idea
Shawn
if a bear is coming into your tent, bear spray in your tent's probably not going very well
Katie
no so I'd still use it over getting eaten by a bear attacked or by a person
Shawn
yeah if the bear's dragging you're dragging you out of your tent by your foot you can always spray him in the face right but so anyway yeah that's a key piece of equipment that I always carry
Katie
on your hip or do you have like a chest mount or anything
Shawn
oftentimes I'll just put it in the pocket of my pack it doesn't necessarily have to be you know super accessible
Katie
I don't feel like like things don't happen that fast at least in colorado
Shawn
I mean if I was yeah if I mean when I'vebeen in Alaska, I've carried it, you know, on my chest or attached to my hip on my pack or what have you, if I, if I have to and bear spray on, you know, clipped on my, on my pack belt as well.
Katie
So I've always been much more worried about human contact, but that's, you know, maybe as a somewhat small, small stature woman, that's more on my mind than bears. And bears for me, it's more like I get, I get my food up in a tree away from me and I'm kind of assuming that a bear, we have had bears come and, you know, try to get into our bear vaults or whatever, but never had one try to get to where I was because we just store our food away. And it's never really much of a concern.
Shawn
Yeah. Just keep a clean camp and bears typically will stay away from you.
Katie
Right.
Shawn
They're more of a problem in the campgrounds where all the people are.
Katie
Right. That's the thing.
Shawn
Than they're in the backcountry.
Katie
That's kind of the thought process we've taken. Like we don't, we generally, if we're in the middle of nowhere, don't take our travel size toothpaste out of our, like we'll just sleep with it.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Assuming that the human scent within the tent is probably not, or it's probably enough to deter a bear from coming for that one little thing. Right. We'll put the food in the sack. But if we're in an established campsite, everything's going. Right. In the. In the trunk or whatever.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
Yeah. Cause I feel like that's where the problems actually are. The bears that have never encountered people aren't really that much of a problem.
Shawn
And I don't think mountain lions, whatever, I've never heard of an instance where a mountain lion has come into someone's tent.
Katie
No, I haven't heard that either.
Shawn
So a mountain lion is more going to chase you, you know, if you're out running on the trail or walking on the trail, or it's going to ambush you. Looks like prey escaping. Yeah. Although I have, we were backpacking up on Pike's Peak. It's where I kind of cut my teeth backpacking when I was, when I was very young and woke up the next morning and there were mountain lion tracks all, literally all the way around our tent.
Katie
That's unnerving.
Shawn
I was like, oh, we had a, We had a visitor last night.
Katie
Quick funny story about the flat tops. Before we went there, I had never been there before. And I was, I was, you know, just, we were hiking in. Me and my friend Allie had this habit of hiking in at like 11 p.m. Because we get off work, you know, on a Friday. And it's like, okay, let's get in there that night. So we meet up at like 11. And we just tend to hike in like after dark a lot. And I was just psyching myself up about, you know, hiking after dark. And I was like, well, the flat tops doesn't really look like mountain lion country to me compared to like a desert. You know, you think of like the desert rocks and stuff. And I was trying to calm my fears. So I typed in flat tops wilderness mountain lion, just hoping that it would be like there aren't a lot of mountain lions in the flat tops. The very first link was fly fishermen attacked by mountain lion in the flat tops wilderness. And I was just like, why did I do this? Why did I search this? Specifically, some guy fishing was, like, attached from behind from a mountain lion. I was like, why did you Google this? Like, this is not a good thing.
Shawn
Yeah, when you're by yourself, sometimes, you know, looking behind you, look over your shoulder is a good thing to do.
Katie
Right.
Shawn
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
Cool. Well, we've been going for, like, an hour now. Do you have anywhere that, like, people can find you if they want to see you on social media? I don't know if I, like, follow you or anything if you have social media.
Shawn
I am on Facebook. I have an Instagram. My Instagram moniker is trout prospector.
Katie
Okay.
Shawn
So, yeah, if you want to – I don't use Instagram all that often. I actually kind of quit posting regularly on Facebook. It's just kind of a mess right now with everything going on. I tend to ignore all the noise, and, you know, I post pictures of trips that I've taken. I took a week or a month off from work this summer and did a ton of backpacking, and I posted that. I think that was like my last post or one of my last posts. so but anyways yeah you can find me on facebook on instagram trout prospector and yeah I i mean I i love spending time in the backcountry I love backpacking love fly fishing so it's always great to to meet like-minded people and that have the same interest and passion
Katie
yeah I agree well thanks for coming over this is a fun fun chat
Shawn
yeah thanks for having me I appreciate it.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening. and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
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