Ep 32: Muskies on the Fly, with Kip Vieth
Kip Vieth is the owner of Wildwood Float Trips out of Monticello, MN, and also the author of the Orvis Guide to Muskies on the Fly, set to be released October of 2020. In this episode, Kip walks me through all things musky fly fishing. Having never cast a single fly for muskies, I’m a complete newbie, and as Kip describes, it’s somewhat night and day compared to fly fishing for other species like bass and trout. He goes into flies, rod choice, casting, where to find fish, and much more.
Video of record musky on the fly: Record Musky
Instagram: @wildwoodfloattrips
Facebook: facebook.com/Wildwood-Float-Trips-120782057940619/
Website: www.wildwoodfloattrips.com
Email: kip@wildwoodfloattrips.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 32 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I am talking to Kip Vieth, and Kip is the owner of Wildwood Float Trips out of Monticello, Minnesota, and is also the author of The Orvis Guide to Muskies on the Fly, which will be coming out this October. As you may have guessed, Kip came on to walk me through all things muskie fly fishing. So if you're like me and fly fishing for muskies is something that's a pretty much a completely foreign concept to you, this will be the perfect episode to kind of give you the 101 information on getting started. So without further ado, here is my chat with Kip Vieth. I am joined today by Kip Vieth. How are you doing today, Kip?
Kip
Good, good, very good.
Katie
And have you been getting out on the water much?
Kip
Yeah, every day pretty much. I guide throughout the summer probably every day except for You know, rain or something like that, but I'm busy from basically opening day, which is second Saturday in May, all the way till November and we get ice. So I'm pretty busy.
Katie
And so do you get out much fishing personally, or are you mostly just guiding these days?
Kip
I don't fish much anymore.
Katie
I hear that a lot.
Kip
I live vicariously through my clients basically. I do have a musky weekend that I do with a bunch of friends. Well, last year I didn't throw a cast because I was busy rowing. And I love that as much as fishing, to be honest with you. So it's not that big a deal. But, yeah, I get to fish a little bit. I do some bluegill stuff in the spring, some trout fishing. But once smallmouth season kind of rolls around, and then into musky season, it's pretty much I don't get to fish much.
Katie
I do hear that a lot, but I also hear the other thing you said, about, you know, getting to fish vicariously through your clients, especially if it's like their first fish or your first species of fish or something like that. It's almost more fun than catching it yourself.
Kip
Yeah, exactly. It's, it's a, you know, I wouldn't do it if, you know, I've had young guys go, well, you know, I want to guide and I go, do you love to fish? And they go, yeah. And I go, well, then you don't want to guide. You either, you know, you want to guide, you don't want to fish. So.
Katie
Yeah. And guiding ends up being almost more teaching than it is actually fishing or fish knowledge at times. It's just showing people a good time and being able to explain yourself well. And, you know, it's a whole different skill set than just being able to catch fish.
Kip
Correct. Yeah, it's totally different, actually. I mean, you have to be a good angler, I think, to be a good guide. But I think that's a smaller part of it than the actual guiding is. So at least that's my thoughts on it.
Katie
Now, your company is Wildwood Float Trips?
Kip
Correct.
Katie
And so are you all float trips? Do you do any wading as well or just floating?
Kip
We do some spring creek stuff in the drift list in the spring. But, yeah, basically it's in a drift boat from, like I said, opening weekend in May until ice, which is about second weekend in October. It can be earlier, it can be later. It depends on the rivers, I guess.
Katie
And then once it ices up, are you ice fishing or are you kind of taking that time off?
Kip
I take that time off. And I usually, you know, right after musky season ends, I'm duck hunting for the two or three weeks that I have left the duck season. And then, yeah, then I pretty much take my time off. Or I work, you know, I pick up a part-time job somewhere just to stay kind of busy. So, yeah, so that's kind of what I do.
Katie
Yeah, I heard you recently on the Orvis podcast talking about bluegill fishing. Is that something that you guide for too? Or is that just a personal favorite for you to go out and chase?
Kip
As any good guide would say, yeah, it's my personal time, but then it's kind of morphed into guiding for him too a little bit. So I don't do a ton of it. Like I run a big weekend, we do a four-day weekend bluegill fishing with clients. And then, you know, I have a few clients that are really into it, like me that, you know, I've shown it to them and they've, you know, they book every year now for a bluegill trip or two just because it's, you know, a hoot. So, but more of a personal thing than clients, but it's top. It's one of my favorite things to do, especially here in Minnesota with the Clear Lakes. You can see them and it's kind of mini tarpon fishing almost, I guess, but it's a hoot of fun.
Katie
I was going to say, that's not from the drift boat, right? That's kind of a separate type of trip.
Kip
Yeah. I mean, when I first started, I used to just roll my drift boat around the lake and fish. And now I've got a john boat with a little motor on it. But, I mean, you certainly can, you know, I've only had the job for three, four years. So I used to run it with my drift boat. So it was, they're small legs, so it was pretty doable.
Katie
I just say I'm pretty jealous of the, I know the topic you were discussing on Orvis was the, like the trophy bluegills. And that's just something we don't have much of out here. I can catch bluegills five minutes from my house, but they're all, you know, five to six inches long. And I'm really jealous of what you have over there.
Kip
Yeah, it's still good fun, but yeah, I mean, big blues are pretty rare. I mean, they're not, you know, on the podcast, it might have sounded like they were super easy, but if you find a good lake that has them, they're going to be there, but it's kind of finding a lake that has them, I guess, more than anything.
Katie
Sure. Yeah, I feel like we just don't, we don't get the size of those warm water species that you have in the Midwest.
Kip
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's something about the north and growing big, you know, our deer are bigger, our fish are bigger, and, you know, all that good stuff. it's the cold but yeah we're pretty blessed it's a pretty cool place there's not too much that we can't fish for in the midwest except for saltwater stuff and we have excellent trout fishing and excellent warm water fishing so it's pretty blessed and to have what we have here
Katie
yeah I do think if… I'm pretty drawn to the mountain west but if I didn't live here I could I could definitely see myself ending up somewhere like Minnesota or Wisconsin just just based on the outdoor lifestyle that everyone seems to have there and abundant resources. And I don't know how the crowds are there, but I'm sure that they're probably not as bad as front range Denver area is.
Kip
No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, I complain if I see a couple boats a day, you know, so I don't think they're bad. I mean, I think it's, the pressure is certainly noticeable, you know, more noticeable now than it was, you know, 19 years ago when I started. But I think it has a toll on the fishery. I think, you know, things are tougher over the years. And I think that's kind of the next big hurdle that all fly anglers and fishermen in general are going to have to conquer is pressure and what it does to a fishery. And it's more noticeable in muskies probably than any other fish here in the Midwest. I mean, you know, they're smart and big for a reason. And I think pressure plays a very big role in that.
Katie
Is that kind of becoming more popular? I know fly fishing in general is, I feel like it's been picking up steam in the past couple of years, but have you noticed a deliberate or distinct difference in the musky specific fly fishing pressure?
Kip
By all means, yeah. It's crazy. I mean, if I really wanted to, there's a couple of rivers here that probably see more fly pressure than gear pressure. Really? So if I really wanted to catch a fish, I think I would throw gear. You know, I would throw a bucktail or run a sucker minnow or something like that just because it's something different. They've seen, you know, they see a lot of flies in some of those rivers, more so than any other traditional gear. So in muskies, it's throwing something different and try to get a bite. So, you know, or get them to trigger to eat. And usually something different helps that, you know, because they've seen the same lures over and over again. And you see on the lakes around here really big time. I mean, they'll follow like this year in mid-August. they're just going to follow and say, I've seen that lure 20 times today. I am, there's no way I'm going to eat that thing. Or if you throw something different at them that they haven't seen or it's new and it's, it has a tendency to get them to go more than your standard silver bladed bucktail or, or for as a fly as a Buford or, you know, just the standard big deer hairhead fly. I think, you know, something different is always good to, good to throw at a muskie. we had a big advantage on that, you know, 10, 15 years ago before it got real, you know, crazy. I mean, it's, it's, it's not crazy, but it's a heck of a lot more people doing it than was, you know, five years ago than it is today.
Katie
Yeah. Just because at that point, any fly was something new to them and now it's, they're kind of getting swamped by it.
Kip
Yeah. I mean, they've, they've seen those, you know, they've seen, I've seen a fly. I mean, you know, the rivers that I'm talking about that are very popular and do have great muskie populations, but it doesn't take them long to get smart to it. I mean, like you said, a 50-inch fish has probably seen everything that someone can throw at it. We caught one a couple of years ago on a small little weird fly, and I think that had a lot to do with it. I don't think that fish had moved on a bait all fall. I mean, it was the last day of the season, and it was kind of a weird deal, but you never muskies are weird.
Katie
Pressure aside, do you, is there a distinct advantage for using gear or flies? Like if you could, if pressure just weren't an issue, would, would gear be significantly more effective than flies or is it kind of a toss-up?
Kip
It depends on the situation. Like in the fall, I mean, I fish muskies 90%, 99% of the time from middle of September until ice. I don't mess with them much in the summer to decide is he smallmouth fishing so I would say if I really wanted to catch a musky I'd fish a live sucker I mean that's by far their number one bait in the fall that's what they want to eat and most of my flies kind of mimic a sucker they fish a lot of spots where you know suckers will be you know I say in my book follow bait you'll find the fish and that's kind of what it is in the in the in the fall especially with red horse suckers in the midwest I mean it's the filet mignon for muskies.
Katie
So yeah, so diving into some of the specific fly fishing techniques, I guess we can mention real quick too that the reason I'm having you on is that you are the author of a recent book with Orvis specifically related to muskie fly fishing. What was the title of that? Is that?
Kip
Orvis Guide to Muskies on the Fly and it comes out. It was, you know, we got COVID, I guess is kind of going to be a new word, but it was supposed to be out July 1st. Now it's October 1st so looks like everything's good to go a final edit and everything has been done so now we just have to print it and get it out but October 1st it'll be available and you can pre-order it I think on Amazon right now and yeah so it's gonna be it's kind of a it's a real basic book you know someone like has never doesn't know where to begin it just kind of goes through the basic steps of how to do it what to look for you know something about flies something about water seasonal movements all that kind of thing so it's a you know it's a I always call I call it like the muskie fishing 101.
Katie
So if you do you have like just to kind of dive right into that do you have any specific tips on just if someone wants to pick up a rod for muskies let's say they know how to fly fish but they are used to your standard trout or maybe have dabbled a little bit in something like bass how does one jump into muskie fishing like how different is it from your standard fly fishing that probably a lot of people get started with?
Kip
it's night and day it's not really I mean you're just lobbing a big chunk of deer of hair I mean it's you know there's no it's not pretty you know it's it's collar grind it out most of my guys will end up water loading their cast at the end you know they'll they'll throw out a little 15 footer bring it back water load it and just fire it you know it's a
Katie
no real false casting
Kip
there's no fall casting. There’s only one knucklehead that I know what to do, and that's Pete from Orvis who can throw an 80-footer, can throw an 18-inch fly 80 feet and just kind of look at you and smirk, and then I yell at him.
Katie
Yeah, I think I saw him cast a whole fly line in a single false cast, so that doesn't really count.
Kip
Yeah, and he's like 30 feet tall. My buddies and I joke, if I was 6'8", I could cast like that too. Yeah, I mean, and you don't want to cast that far anyway. I yell at him like, what are you going to do if one eats it out there? I mean, you're just not going to be able to put a hook in it. So, yeah, I mean, a 40 to 50 foot cast is plenty, at least on the rivers, on the lakes. It's a different, I fish 99% of the time on rivers just because I love rivers. And most fly guys like rivers better than lakes, I guess. But that's kind of being a snob, I guess. But that's kind of, I just love rivers and the drift boats. So that's how I do it. But yeah, so 40, 50 foot cast is all you really need. The rod is, in the book, I say cast it till you find it. Now, if you're in Colorado and there's not a lot of fly guys that do muskies, it's kind of hard to do that. So, and it depends how many, how big of flies you're going to throw and what you're going to do. But, you know, I'd say anything from 10 to 12. So I'm probably in that, more in the 11, 12 range on my rods. but we throw some pretty, pretty big flies. I mean, they're crazy big. And so that's what I can tell you about picking a rod because it's just, it's not a fly rod, it's a tool. I fished with Sean Combs, a rod designer at Orvis one time, and I brought one of our just broomstick musky sticks, and he threw it. He's like, this thing is, I go, you can't, you have to not think of it as a fly rod. It's a tool. It's a means to deliver a big fly.
Katie
Yeah, just like kind of chucking it out there.
Kip
Yeah, yeah. And then so then he fished it for a couple hours, and then he picked up a – I had an H2 one-piece 12-weight. You know, he goes, oh, now this is a fly rod, you know. And I'm like, well, of course it is. You know, you designed it. But, you know, and then he cast it, and then he got the fly in tight, and the thing kind of just didn't have the backbone to it to turn a fly at the boat. Okay, I get it. So it's kind of a, it's, you know, it's a fine line between just a broomstick and then with guides on it or an actual fly rod. So the new one he designed, the Clearwater's Jeep, but it's pretty good. You know, he kind of used the stuff that he learned casting that stuff and kind of combo plattered it all and tried to get something that was good for everybody. But everyone's got their own style. It's hard to, you know, for me to tell you what fly rod to get when I've never seen you cast. and I don't know what you can do with it, that type of thing. You just need to get out there and try them, I guess. It's hard, especially if you're in somewhere that there's not a lot of 11, 12-weight muskie sticks floating around. We're blessed in the Midwest. Every fly shop's got muskie gear pretty much.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like here you walk in, and they've got a selection of probably tons of three to seven weights or so, and then a couple on either end of that, but probably not much in the outer ranges.
Kip
Right. Yeah, I mean, it's, well, unless you're going saltwater fishing, it might have a token 10 in there or something like that.
Katie
And it's probably just like a single weight that they're carrying for all those people. You know, we're going to cover all the saltwater people and maybe the carp people and the pike people with, you know, maybe a nine or 10 weight, and that's what you've got to choose from.
Kip
Yeah, I mean, you know, that's what we used, you know, 15 years ago. We just made it work, you know, and it's not to say it can't. It's just, you know, just like everything else, technology is pretty good. Lines have gotten a heck of a lot better and rods have gotten a heck of a lot better. So it's come a long way. I mean, it's amazing, even small stuff and everything. It's just got so much easier, I think, to learn it than, you know, 30, 40 years ago whenever I picked it up.
Katie
Now, this might be kind of an ignorant question, but if the flies are so large that you're kind of just lobbing them out there, I mean, would you be able to fisha muskie fly on just a spin rod?
Kip
I have I've done that.
Katie
Have you? Because I just feel like if it’s that heavy you might have enough weight to just chuck it out.
Kip
Yeah yeah you can. I can throw it probably as far as I can throw it with a fly you know on my on my like gear rod with the big you know Calcutta on it.
Katie
So what what roughly sized flies are you using for muskies and are they articulated are they like basically just describe a typical muskie fly?
Kip
Well the range I mean you can get them from five to six inches all the way to 18. I mean it's you know I have guys that are older that throw them and we throw smaller stuff and in women and and then I have guys that want to throw the biggest thing they can you know just to throw them in a dish ray so it runs the gamut and most of my stuff is articulated. I love a fly that looks like a dying you know like sucker something where you it kicks a little and glides you know I don't you know a lot of people think that muskie fish you're just ripping it as fast as you can I always think it's slower is better than than speed you know I want it to roll and kick and glide and kind of like a walk the dog action only underneath the water
Katie
okay now and are all the flies pretty much representing fish or are there are there any other types of you know amphibians or anything like that that the flies are imitating?
Kip
in the summer a lot of guys will throw top water I mean right now it's probably top water time and they'll run a big blockhead or anything that moves a ton of water and they just know that one they’ll rip they'll just boom boom boom just trying to elicit some sort of response trying to get them to come up and eat it now getting a hook in them is a different animal with the top water but it's very difficult now are you strip setting on these then yeah if you lift the rod you lose I mean that that's kind of what I tell my clients if you lift your rod up you're gonna lose until you get them buttoned up.
Katie
So when you're fishing these on rivers then are you are you kind of just casting out to the side of the boat and you know stripping it straight back toward you and I know you said you kind of do a little bit of a walk the dog and kind of move it around and make it look injured but are you are you generally casting it out and pulling it back in? Is there any sort of swing to it?
Kip
No there's no swing I mean they'll get you know they'll get swung in the current a little bit but no you're just throwing it up towards the bank or muskies love big wood but they're just big brown trout basically huge huge big brown trout you know so they they'll live on wood they'll live on current breaks and seams and in the fall once you find them they're there all fall they do not you know they they've moved in for the fall or their wintering holes and they don't move much so if I move a 42 incher on a wood pile on Tuesday and he just kind of rolls out at it he he he'll be there all winter
Katie
okay so you're gonna go back there and try to find that fish that you didn't get before
Kip
I mean I've chased fish on logs for years or or you know big eddies or seams or you know just spots you find them for I mean a decade I chased one so I mean it's you know they just show up on a certain day and you know the gear guys have always told me that on you know I know when the moon hits this thing in September that that fish was going to move up on that rock bar and I've caught them every year for four years so if you hook them that doesn't change the fact that they're still hanging out there well no not usually I mean they get smarter
Katie
sure but it's not gonna like you could catch one in the same the same fish in the same spot you know a couple years apart and it might still be hanging out
Kip
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah they're not gonna you know you might catch them once every year you know they're not gonna bite you know once you hook them they're pretty especially a big fish you know I mean we're talking mid 40s to over 50 once you hook that fish it's pretty tough to catch them again that fall okay be there the next year probably unless something happens or whatever but for the most part they're going to be there year after year or if it's not that one it's just a good spot there's going to be there's a reason that fish is there and the food's nearby and they have cover
Katie
sure so it might just be a kind of a muskie magnet area yeah yeah that one moves out another one's gonna take its spot?
Kip
it's certain it's kind of like the head of the pool on a trout you know you know that's where the big fish is gonna be because they're gonna get the first dibs at the you know that's kind of how the muskies are too they're like the big ones are at the the prime ambush spots and then the smaller ones and there's not a lot of muskies in the river period so you know usually one big muskie is gonna occupy a prime spot and that's gonna be it
Katie
so if you're if you're floating down the river I mean I know you said you're looking for things like logs but it's not like there's logs every 10 feet necessarily in the river it like if you're floating through a spot that's just kind of open are you just kind of casting out through that and you know hoping for the best or are you only really targeting those spots that really look like they're going to hold a musky and it's kind of pointless to to blindly cast out into open water
Kip
I don't I wouldn't say it's it's hopeless because they do migrate, you know, but if it's November 1st here, those fish are probably locked in on their spot. And if I get like, I'll cast a grass bank with the deep, I mean, it's deep and it's got to be deeper in the fall. It has to be deeper water with cover, you know, or a seam, you know, it can't be, you know, two feet with the log. It's got to be, you know, six to eight feet deeper, you know, a deeper spot on the river relative to what the normal depth of the river is I guess I'm looking for those deep wood spots those deep you know seams and eddies that type of thing but we'll still cast to a bank or you know thereabouts because they will move you know within that area but like when I get to a spot where I know a fish is or you know you've moved fish there every year and I've moved them a couple times without him you know I go to the client I need your a-game now everything's to the boat you're turning it you're spinning you know your look behind it you know and you just have it's a game time
Katie
okay so you're not basically you're not like stopping fishing if you're not in a prime spot but you're you may be a little more passive about it what versus kind of…
Kip
and that's usually when they bite you know is when you're not, if it's two feet of water and a big flat you know I'm gonna blow through it I'm gonna get down to where you know they're actually gonna be two feet of water and there's a riffle and they're they're gonna be on a tail out on that riffle because that's what the suckers are And I've seen them chasing six, eight inches of water, chasing suckers in the summer. So that's kind of cool. It's like shark week. Pretty amazing when it happens.
Katie
So I don't know if you'll actually know the answer to this, but I feel like a lot of fish, it's known that fish like cover. If you ever have a lake or a river and there's a log jam, there's probably a fish in that area. But I usually think of it for the smaller fish as being a cover from predators. But I don't really picture muskies having a lot of predators. What causes them to seek out that structure? Is it because that's where the prey is or are they seeking cover themselves?
Kip
I think they're seeking a little cover, but I think it's more of an ambush thing.
Katie
Okay.
Kip
You know, so they'll dip into that wood and they're just going to chill there until a sucker comes by or they need to move out into the area where the suckers are because they're not far from the food. You know, there's four things they don't want to do and that's, you know, they want to do and that's not work too hard, find food, you know, make more muskies. And then I guess it's three, but we'll go with three.
Katie
Pretty simple life.
Kip
Yeah, that's a pretty simple life. Find the food, make more muskies and not work. So if you can find, put all those three together, then you're probably going to find the fish. And it's more got to do with the food. And in the fall, they're just, the big females are just trying to make it through the winters and they want to make sure their eggs have plenty of food to grow so when it comes to making more they're going to be their eggs are going to be good they're going to be in a healthy situation so when spawn comes that they're they're good to go so it's more about putting the pounds on to make sure those eggs are going to do do good everyone thinks they just go in the fall feed bag well really it's really to protect their eggs and to put more protein in them so they can make more and get and get to the spring to lay them
Katie
so so it's fall kind of the hot time for musky like what's what's the annual like cycle of of musky fishing?
Kip
yeah I mean post spawns pretty good so they spawn pretty much like right before smallmouth they're kind of a late spawner they're not like pike right underneath the ice or you know the first things to spawn they they probably spawn I used to know sometimes I had like well you know high 50s in there somewhere it's in the book I should have I should have had
Katie
No worries. Are they a little warmer than pike in general? Are they just a slightly warmer water fish?
Kip
No. You can kill them pretty easy in the summer if you catch them when the water gets above 80.
Katie
Okay.
Kip
Yeah. In the summer, you're looking for springs and anywhere where cool water, they will lay up in a foot of water there if they're in the spring or trying to get cool.
Katie
Huh. Okay.
Kip
Yeah. They don't like that real, you know, real like speedy dead water. They need a lot of oxygen and cold water to keep that metabolism going in those big fists. So, yeah, they're probably more cold than a pike, actually.
Katie
So then how does it progress through the summer and then into the fall?
Kip
So post-spawn's pretty good. And, oh, just the fact on the pike, which I found really interesting when I researched the book, is muskies grow bigger in lakes with pike than they do. they seldom get over 40 inches if there's no pike in that lake.
Katie
Oh, why is that? That's definitely the opposite of what I would have guessed.
Kip
Yeah, you'd think that. It kind of shocked me. But I think the pike eat a lot of the fry. And so they make bigger fish, I guess. You know, they take out some of the biomass, I guess. That's the theory.
Katie
Yeah, I guess I've heard similar, not necessarily one fish affecting another, But like, you know, if you get a bass pond that's got some bass and panfish, it's better if you do keep a couple of fish because that, you know, there's fewer fish in there competing for the same resources. So I wonder if maybe that's kind of the same thing. You know, if the pike thin out the muskies, the muskies have more resources per fish?
Kip
Yeah, I mean, a muskie eats a lot. I mean, and, you know, they're always fighting. I mean, a muskie will drill a small pike. I mean, that's, you know, I don't know if that's genetic and say, you're the pike that ate my baby. but they'll eat a pike pretty, pretty handily. And we're, you know, I don't think a small pike is going to mess with the, you know, same size muskie. Maybe, I don't know, maybe they will, but I have, I've seen more muskies eat small pike than the other way around, I guess. Yeah. So that's just kind of, it was just an interesting thing that I found reading a bunch of, you know, research and things like that. It's pretty cool. But so, yeah, so post spawn back to the seasons post spawn is kind of they're coming off the spawn they're pretty beat up it's usually some pretty rough stuff going on the males are all it's hot here so I have the windows open I'm sorry no worries anyway so it's kind of it's kind of rough and the males get really beat up fighting for you know their their mates and stuff like that and then in the they just get beat up a little bit so it's kind of a they're real skinny and they're kind of gangly looking in the spring but they'll they'll eat they're kind of on a rampage at post spawn thing trying to get their energy back up and getting ready for the summer so it's probably the number two time I would say to try to target a muskie is is post spawn and here we open up in June like the second weekend in June is when muskie season opens so it's a it's a month after the regular are here
Katie
oh so you actually have a muskie season that you're not allowed to target them outside
Kip
yeah yeah you know it goes from that second weekend in June I believe until the end of November
Katie
that's got to be a pretty easy season to police I've growing up you know we had seasons for fish but you know where I was there were so many species in the same area that if you just threw something small it'd be really hard for someone to argue that you were targeting you know a certain species if you caught you know a bass or a walleye or something like that but it's pretty hard to say that you weren't targeting muskie if you're throwing like a 10 inch it's it's pretty narrowed down
Kip
kind of like the bull trout thing in Montana while you're throwing a you know 15 inch cutthroat fly you know something
Katie
yeah if you happen to catch one on a parachute Adams then that so be it but you're probably not
Kip
yeah you're not gonna well I've caught them on princes so I don't know we'll figure that oh the bull trout I assume not the yeah yeah yeah not a muskie that'd be pretty cool if I did that would Very, very cool. But yeah, so it's pretty easy to police. And I think muskie anglers for the most part are probably more catch and release orientated than even trout guys. I mean, it's, I think the world record will be caught, but it'll never be registered. It'll just get put back in.
Katie
Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I bet that's the case for a lot of species out there. You know, people just catch a big fish and they're just so excited and it doesn't even crossed their mind that they should kill it and submit it to something you know they just appreciate it and send it back
Kip
yeah so it's you know it's a special fish I mean that's a big big old fish and there's not a lot of them there's one every hundred acres or something like that so I mean it's not there's not a lot of them out there
Katie
do you think they live up to the reputation of 10,000 casts like how how often are you catching them like when you're guiding people how how reliably can you assume that you'll be able to get a muskie to the boat in a given day of fishing?
Kip
you'll get one to follow most days or look or maybe eat but getting to the boat is the that's the easy part
Katie
okay yeah maybe maybe I should rephrase that because I feel like if you know if I were a client of yours I'd be happy if I had one on the line or hit my fly I feel like at that point it's my job to get it to the boat but so you can pretty reasonably assume you'll get a bite
Kip
yeah you can go three days and see one or 11 in one day so I mean it's you know it's musky it's like permit it's like blind permit fish
Katie
sure okay yeah I've heard people say they've caught three in a day and then some people go you know years of trying without any luck
Kip
right yeah and that's kind of where it is so I you know to sit here and go you know and if you know if someone comes up and say how many days are in I I'd say give yourself three days you know because you're below the first one you're you know the chances of you landing the very first muskie that eats that it's a good muskie not a you know not a regular musk you know a 30 inch or 36 inch or anything over 40 I'm kind of a snob I don't consider it a muskie unless it's over 40 that's that's me that's not a client if client wants to catch a muskie that's great but you know I'm kind of a you know I think all growth should be shot over setters and I think muskies over aren't muskies unless they're over 40 so
Katie
I think that comes with time too the more you catch you know at some point a fish of a certain size doesn't doesn't really mean as much because you've you've seen too many of them
Kip
yeah yeah yeah so I'm you know that's I've been chasing them and there's something just way different about a fish over 40 inches
Katie
that's funny you say that because I've I've landed exactly one muskie it was on spin gear and it was totally by accident but it was it was 31 inches and it was probably the most exciting fish in my life but but that's because I've only caught the one right So I'm sure that would be just an average day.
Kip
Yeah. And I tell clients, what's your goal? I mean, you know, like you were a guide, you know that, you know, if a client tells you, this is what I want to accomplish today, your day is 100% better.
Katie
Yeah. That's what you're working for.
Kip
Yeah. So, okay. I know what I have to do. So if the guys, I just want to catch a muskie. Okay. Then we'll go to this place because there's more muskies. They're not as big, you know, or okay. I want to catch one over 45. Okay. And we're going, you know, we're going here. or this section or whatever. So it's, you know, you have to have a goal, I guess, to set out on, but that being said, I think you are going to, you know, most people do blow their first one. They just look at it and go, I can't believe that fish just ate my fly. And they just sit there and freeze. And then by the time they wake up, it's usually too late unless the fish commit suicide. But, and that's happened. I've, you know, seen it happen a bunch of times, but I've seen them blow up more than, you know, I've blown them. I mean, everyone blows them. You're going to blow them. that's just part of the game. They, you know, they eat and they come at you. It's hard to get a hook in them. That's, that's the hardest part of the whole game is trying to put a hook in them.
Katie
So when you're, when you're trying to target these, you know, quote unquote, trophy muskies, some of the bigger ones that, that surpass kind of the line you've drawn, is it kind of just a location thing? I know you said you'll go to places that have bigger muskies, but apart from going to the right location and maybe upping the fly size, is there any way to kind of weed out those smaller and strictly target the big ones? I'm thinking of like trout where, you know, if you throw on a two or three inch streamer, you've effectively eliminated 90% of the trout that are wherever you're fishing. Is that the same for muskies or is there a different way you're kind of targeting those larger ones?
Kip
There's a different way of doing it. It's mostly genetics and biology. So the biggest muskies in the, I'm going to say in the United States because Canada's got probably the biggest, but are leech lake strain muskies. They grow the fastest and they grow the biggest. And they're just genetically superior to any other strain of muskies. And I'm saying that. That's a Minnesota, Mississippi river fish. So I'm partial to that fish, but there is a reason. You know, they've done enough studies that those fish grow bigger and faster. And the other thing is water. If you're fishing smaller rivers and streams, then you're not going to grow as big a fish. You just, you know, you need the biomass. You need the big waters. And that's why I say Minnesota is blessed. We have some of the biggest lakes and rivers that hold probably the biggest muskies in the lower 48. So we're pretty blessed that way. So that's what I think it comes down to. Now, if you wanted to go, you know, once again, it comes down to goals. I just want to catch a fish. Well, then there's plenty of, and there's still big fish in those small streams or smaller systems than what we have. But if I'm playing the odds, I'm going to look for bigger water and a better fish. And I'm not saying that those other fish don't get to 50 inches because they certainly do. It's just that Minnesota ones grow a little bit bigger. And those are the same ones that are up in Lake of the Woods and that type of thing. And most of the states are now planting if they are reintroducing the leech lake strains into their planting programs, which I don't know if I agree with that. But, you know, it's kind of like the native, you know, the brown trout versus the brook trout or that, you know, that type of thing. So, you know, but everyone wants a big fish, right? So that's what pays the bills and that's what's going to get put in that lake, I guess, or that river system.
Katie
Yeah, it sounds like kind of the standard, the very first step to catching a big fish is making sure you're in a spot where there are big fish. And then after that, it's a kind of a combination of, you know, using the right techniques, but also just kind of hoping for the best, knowing that you've put yourself in the best situation possible.
Kip
exactly that's you couldn't have done it said it any better I mean you just I always call it stacking the odds so you want to start stacking your poker chips if you want a 45 inch fish this is what I need so I'm going to put that chip in the table okay I'm going to fish Mississippi river or lake mille Lacs or you know these big big bodies on systems okay so now I've got that so now I need to maybe watch the weather or the season or and you just start trying to stack as many poker chips as you can so when you place the bet your odds are better of cashing and then you know if you didn't so it's going willy-nilly okay I know there's muskies in the river let's go float it and and catch one okay you know and that that certainly is done every day but you know there's some really really good biology out there right now I mean the start must studies that I've read on muskies it's doing research for the bogey it was just amazing I mean they're putting so in Duluth harbor which is you know no one's familiar with that it's in the north you know it's on lake superior and there's a big river that comes in there called the St Louis river and there's some monster monster muskies in that St Louis you know like right next to the oar docks and things like that it's just but they're putting ships on them now and they're following their movements out to the lake in the summer and then you know they didn't think they left out to the lake and they had little dingers all the way through the you know so they when they pass a certain buoy it dings and you know so just really really cool cool stuff that that the biologists are doing right now.
Katie
So is there is there a noticeable difference in like average size between lake muskies and river muskies or is it is it just kind of location specific and you know sometimes you get monsters in the lake sometimes you get monsters in the river and there's no real correlation to the type of water these fish are in.
Kip
Yeah, I think for the most part, I think it's true with all warm water species that lake fish just get bigger. You know, I, you know, from my experience, I mean, there's certainly a ton of big fish in rivers, but you know, I always say they're on a treadmill all day. They're not going to get really fat and lazy, like, like a lake fish, you know, they don't have to work that hard.
Katie
Yes, that's true. I've never really thought of it that way, but yeah, it does make sense.
Kip
And I think there's a lot, I mean, there's red horse, you know, in the rivers and they're a big fatty fish, but there's also, we have like a white fish species we call tulibi. That's kind of, it's a white fish basically on, on some of the bigger lakes. And I mean, those things are just greasy, oily fish that, you know, just throw on pounds. I mean, that's, that's how my friend Robert got his world record there. you know those those white fish or tulibies come into the rock bars when it gets like 39 degrees out the water temperature and you just start throwing big flies at the rock bars and the the muskies are right behind because they're up spawning in the fall you know so you know you follow the food you follow the fish right but that's you know I think some of the lakes have like bigger ciscoes greasier kind of fatty you know like the big thanksgiving dinner every day you know where a river fish they have certainly have bows and I put but not to the not to the extent of those real productive big fish lakes do
Katie
that makes sense I need to follow up on what you just said though your friend caught a world record
Kip
yeah so Robert he owns the fly shop in Minneapolis or it's in St Paul I guess called bob Mitchell's and he was with one of my guide one of a guy that works for me and then another friend and he caught the world record on a fly I think it's inches or something like that that's awesome that's all on youtube it's pretty amazing and the guy driving the boat is muskie Jesus I call him he hates that name but the guy knows more about muskies than you know most people he's just he's unbelievable that's his kind of you know that's his passion and he just lives and breathes it so
Katie
I feel like muskie people are kind of their own breed like there's I feel like when I hear about people who really are are good at muskie fishing that's their that's what they're doing almost all the time like they're not really doing a lot of other fishing whereas someone like a trout or a bass fisherman I feel like you know I'm happy to I fish for trout a lot but I'm happy to go fish for any other species as well
Kip
right yeah I mean when a muskie and the fever bites it's it's bad I mean it's bad so I don't they're just too much work for me to I mean I love fishing them for the little bit I get to do it but I don't think I could grind all summer and fall chasing muskies. I mean, it just, it would wear on me. I mean, I know how hard it is. But then again, that's probably what you have to do to be really, really successful. I mean, if you really want to catch a big, big fish.
Katie
That's what it sounds like to me. That's what I've heard. And it goes along with the whole fish of 10,000 casts. I mean, it's hard to get good at something if you're only doing it very passively. And like I said, I've only landed one and I caught it when I was bass fishing. It was a fluke. And I do feel like it still lived up to the fish of 10,000 casts that was probably my 20,000th cast on on bass that led to that just right kind of mishap
Kip
yeah I mean they're just weird they're weird cats that chase you know they're this they're a different breed I mean they're just they're like those really spooky brown trout guys you know those big streamer junkie brown trout guys that are kind of not quite just got a little they're about one cart short of a full deck right but I think yeah I know what you mean yeah I mean I'm not not disparaging because god bless him I wish I could do it but I just can't I can't limit myself I guess you know I'd love to fish too you know I don't get to fish you know why do guides fish on the day off because they don't get to fish you know any other time so that's that's their deal so yeah so you know the bass are biting I'm gonna go fish bass and try to catch you you know something on my day off I guess.
Katie
Yeah so you said you you mostly fish bass smallmouths right?
Kip
Yeah I mean that's probably from May till mid-September and then from mid-September until ice is muskies and then all you know part of March and most of April is trout so I've got a really really and then throw the April to May bluegill thing in there too so I've got a really nice you know my season is just pretty cool you know because when I'm sick of trout bluegills kind of kick in and when I'm you know the boogos are kind of done and then it's bass season and then once I'm kind of tired of bass boom it's musky season and then it's over you know and it's probably good that it ends with musky season and not begins with musky season could be my mental well my mental state would probably not be the same as it goes the way it does so
Katie
yeah I feel you like I said I'm jealous of your situation because I grew up spoiled with just a variety of species and that's that's one of my favorite things of fishing is is casting out and not necessarily knowing what you're going to and just being able to you know indulge yourself in all different kinds of fish and fishing styles and what you're targeting and you know I grew up with that and now I'm pretty you know it's it's very deliberate what I'm doing now I'm either fishing for trout or I'm on warm water fishing for bass or fishing for panfish and I really miss being able to kind of switch that up and you know if I'm if I'm doing warm water now it's kind of in in the city you know in a city pond or something like that because we don't have those big lakes like you guys do so yeah I'm really I'm really jealous of you on that front
Kip
yeah it's we're like I said we're always we're pretty blessed in the midwest people don't think it was a real good fly fishing destination but if we had mountains there would be 40 drift boats behind my house right now you know that's the only thing we don't have is mountains
Katie
so what what's the leader setup that you're using for muskies on the fly are you using a like a wire leader the same way gear fishermen would
Kip
yep yeah I use the same thing and they're real short so I use probably three feet of ah you know 60 pound floral or you know you can use whatever you want but I use 60 if we're really hunting big stuff I might bump it to 80 but that's kind of overkill 40 to 60 and then I use about 18 to 20 inches of wire and then I I'll bright that together and then glue that. And then on that, I put a snap on the end of the wire. I'll just do a three or four turn clinch knot cinched out the bulk and stuff. And then sometimes I'll glue the top. And then sometimes I'll crimp it with the sleeve if I'm making them ahead of time. And then I'll just tag in a sleeve, crimp it, and then put a little glue on that. But it's got to be a stay lock snap. And if you don't know what a stay lock snap is, look it up. It's just, it's S-T-A-Y dash L-O-C and they're the best snaps. Every other one will fail sooner or later in the Stalox. Usually, you know, I don't know if I've had one fail, but I've had some other weird ones that I thought would never fail. Stainless and big loops and, you know, they've come, the fly has worked out or something, so that's pretty much it. It's real simple. And the reason they're so short is to work close to the boat. So you want to bring that fly line right to the tip, and then you always want to make the turn or do a figure eight. And if you have too long of a leader, you just can't. That fly will stall out, and nothing says this is not good to a muskie than a stalled fly. You know, and that's usually what happens with guys when they see their first fish. They'll be stripping it in, and the muskie will get behind it, and they just sit and stop stripping and look at the fish. An impala does not stop when a jaguar is chasing it, right? keep the day. Yeah. Keep it moving. You don't have to burn it, you know, but, you got to keep doing what you were doing. That, that got his interest and you might, you know, and, and that lots of experience on how to read fish, how hot they are, or, you know, reading that fish to see what you should do to try to enlist the strike. And that's kind of, that's, that's magic. If you, If guys are good like that, it's pretty cool watching them just play that fish like a Stradivarius, trying to get it to eat the fly. And most of the time it doesn't work, but when it does, you know, you just bump that a little different or you speed it up or slow it down and the fish will, you know, coil up and eat it. You know, that's kind of, that's the best part about musket fishing. It's not the fight. It's not, it's just watching that big fish just devour your fly, you know, in a second.
Katie
So are you usually seeing the eat? It's usually happening pretty close to the boat or you ever get hooked up a little farther, like out of view and you just kind of feel it?
Kip
Yeah. The best ones are you never see them, you know, cause you have a shot at them. You know, you don't know what, you know, I've had, I don't know how many guys have said I'm hung up on a log, you know, and it's the fly lines, you know, running 10 feet up the river. And I'm like, that's no log. It's too late. The thing's going to spit it. So the best are, you know, you strip, strip, strip, and it just stops and you just drill it, you know? Like you think it's a log, I don't care. Just strips that the heck out of it, you know? But I mean, yeah, you'll see quite a few of them, you know, you'll see, but I, you know, from a glide standpoint, I really don't, you know, I want you to see them, but when you see them, you usually blow it, you know, it's just kind of one of those.
Katie
You're mesmerized.
Kip
Yeah. You're just like, oh my God, he ate my fly. And then, and then they, they'll glide, you know, what you want is the fish to eat going away from you. So all you have to do is sit there and get it tight. It's caught. I mean, it's not all the time, but that's the best scenario, and that rarely ever happens. So usually they eat it, and they're gliding at you, and you have to kind of, if you're really, really good, which I don't know anyone that is that good, you just can just let them turn. They're not going to let the fly go. Once they have it, unless they feel something weird, you know.
Katie
Yeah.
Kip
Like you trip set as they're running at you, and they're like, this isn't quite right. If you just left it alone and let them swim kind of quartering away and drill them, you know, but no one can do that. I mean, if you're that good, you, you know, quit the game, I guess.
Katie
It's kind of the same predicament that you get with like a dry fly and you see a trout come up and take it. Like it's so easy to set the hook too early because you see it coming and your nerves are going off.
Kip
Yeah. The minute that fly bumps, you're setting the hook, right? It's like a moth under a popper, the same thing. minute that popper moves a little bit you're setting the hook where you weren't even close to setting a hook on him so yeah you know the excitement you know you've just cast you know your fly rod for six hours haven't seen a damn thing and then all of a sudden this behemoth comes off the bottom and drills your fly in front of you and you're just kind of like what the hell just happened
Katie
yeah you're just ready for anything at that point
Kip
yeah yeah yeah you know and you're just like oh my you know and it just it's all mental the whole game is all all mental basically it's between your ears if you don't stay in the shot you're done
Katie
so when you're when you're getting to fly close to the boat are you figure eighting every time or is that only if you've got to follow already and you're just kind of trying to elicit that that bite hopefully or does it does it matter if you don't see a fish you still doing that
Kip
yeah you know you're at least you know I’m, Being a guide and doing it for so long, I know the reality. I want a guy to figure it after every cast. You know, I know that after three hours of figure eighting and not seeing anything, it's not going to happen. You know, and the minute it doesn't happen, that's when the fish is going to show up. So I just say, just turn it for me. Give me a J turn or change direction. Just do something, you know, something different. Because they'll follow that thing 10 feet underneath it. And you go to turn it, and it's like, oh, my God, it's getting away. I got to get on it. And boom, you've got a fish behind it. So that change of direction, the change of speed, it's usually a change of speed, too, when you're picking it up. I had a client years ago caught a 45-inch fish, literally ate the fly out of the water.
Katie
Like jumped up?
Kip
It was picking it up to cast, and the thing ate it like a foot out of the water.
Katie
Oh, gee, that must have been exciting.
Kip
Yeah, and if you went to hook it, he would have fell out of the back of the boat because he screamed like a little girl. He's a big guy, too. It's pretty funny. Yeah, so, I mean, that's, you know, he got lazy, and he picked it up ahead of time, 10 feet away from the boat, and, you know, as he's picking it up, you're moving direction, you're moving, you're changing speeds, and the fish triggered, ate it out of the water, and, you know, the rest is history. But, so, yeah, so that little turn or those figure eights are very, very, very important, you know, and I know it's just, you know, I'm a realist. I know that a client can't do a figure eight all day unless he's really, really into it. You know, so some guys say, I want to go musky fishing. Okay. No, you have to figure eight. And then, you know, they'll last about an hour and then it's, you know, picking it up and throwing it. I'm like, you got to move it. You got to turn it. You know, you just, you got to do something for me.
Katie
So. Is there any sort of pattern as to like where you get most of your hits? Like are, are most of them on these kind of blind figure eights where there's no fish in sight and you just do it and hope for the best or are most of your hits kind of once you've seen a fish or or just when you're stripping it back in like how what percentage of of your fish are on those blind figure eights where it's just kind of you know hoping for the best and yeah it works out
Kip
I'm probably different from most but I only fish fall like in the summer I bet you over like 70 percent of them are on an eight you know if I talking to my gear friends and that type of thing it might be 80 to 90% on a figure eight. That's in the summer when they're real moody they'll follow. That's why I don't fish them because they're hard enough in the fall. They're just twice as hard. They're a little more active probably as far as because of warmer water temperatures and stuff. They're eating probably a little bit more. It seems in the fall that they don't follow when they eat. They still follow. Don't get me wrong but the percentages of eating hit the boat drop you know markedly in the fall and that's good because most more stuff can go wrong next to a boat than out away from me
Katie
yeah I feel like if you're just stripping it in there's there's not much you can do wrong if you're just pulling it in and they grab it and yank
Kip
right yeah if they eat it like you want them to eat it you know quartering away pretty tough to blow that one but most of the time they come at you and you know it's it's hard but and then there's just got a lot of stripping ability on the figure eight you know you almost have to pin them and then just you know it's game on but when they eat it on the eight it's usually pretty pretty aggressive they'll nip at it and stuff sometimes but they'll never eat it you know you'll see them behind it chop me you know there you can hear them chopping you know you can hear their jaws clacking as they're following up it's it's a really weird aggressive thing and some of those fish eat some don't but you know my experience with their chopping they usually don't eat but I bet another guide would probably say the total opposite but it's you know you can hear them clacking their jaws under the water sometimes you can see the jaws moving and they're you know three inches from your fly and you're like okay eat it eat it eat it you know then you got to turn it and then they they'll do maybe follow a couple turns and then they peel away but and you keep going because sometimes they'll peel away or start on the boat and just sit there you know and then you maybe do a sudden move or a bigger turn and and I've seen a lot of youtube videos of guys figuring fish and they're trying to whip up eggs in the morning. I mean, it's just, it's slow it down big, wide circles. Cause if you think if it's a big fish, that's a lot of body to turn. And if they're doing really, really tight figure eights, it's making it real difficult for that fish to, to, um, turn and follow.
Katie
So they're kind of waiting for an opportunity for that, for that prey to, you know, present itself.
Kip
Right. And if you got a real small figure eight or a real small circle, They're just trying to, you know, what's going on? You know, they can't turn that fast. I mean, that's a big ship, you know. It's an aircraft carrier trying to turn them over.
Katie
Yeah, they probably, they're not as agile.
Kip
Right, they are. And when they eat, it's pretty incredible, but it's still a big fish, right? And one of the guys up in Canada I talked to was really interesting. They just do a big, huge circle, you know. So, I mean, it doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want. I mean, you just have to change directions. It also changes depths. So if I'm doing an eight, I usually go deep when I'm pulling it towards the boat. And then when I come around, I'm picking it up and coming shallower and then moving it faster and swinging it out. It just seems to be a little easier that way. And as it's coming directions and speed and changing directions and speed, they'll sometimes T-bone it going away from you. So that's kind of how I do it, why I do it that way.
Katie
Now, do you know how regular muskies differ from something like a pike or a tiger muskie? Because I don't even think we have too many muskies out here in Colorado, but we do have quite a few areas that have tiger muskies and a lot that have pike. I feel like it's pretty easy to think of them all the same way, but are they pretty similar or are they pretty distinct?
Kip
Pike are pretty, they're not the sharpest knives in the drawer. You know, I mean, you know, they're just savages, you know, don't they don't I I'm sure big ones you know we just don't have a big pike population here I mean a large pike we have a ton of pike but they're all small the dnr certainly try to rectify that but tigers I hear are pretty tough they're like a regular muskie okay you'd be a little easier one of my old friends used to fish him he did a lot of he took a lot of photos and stuff for me me in the book and he used to fish them on crew and in Idaho and some other stuff out that way but they can get pretty darn moody just like a muskie so I would think and then I talked to a guy from salt lake that fishes a lot of tigers and yeah same thing they're just muskies with prettier stripes I guess you know they're pretty cool looking fish
Katie
I think that makes sense for what I've heard I feel like I you know hear about people catching pike on the fly all the time and not necessarily that big a deal, but I, I don't regularly hear my friends talking about catching tigers, even though we have them out here. They seem to be the more intellectual of the, of the family.
Kip
Yep. Yeah. I mean, big pike are pretty tough. I mean, that's, you know, it's like a big bluegill or big anything. You got to find them. You know, they're, they're pretty heat sensitive too. Once it warms up, they get pretty deep. It's pretty tough to get them on the fly. So, I mean, it's usually early post spawn or that type of stuff when you get those big giants I know carl has got some huge huge pike I've talked to Landon myra barn he was asking me about it I go oh I'd like to come out and do that but you know some of those reservoirs got some big big pike in them
Katie
yeah and in a lot of the cases there I know there's at least one or two that will pay you to keep the pike because that you know they are kind of detrimental to to everything else that's in there I'm not I'm not sure where all it is but I know there's a couple places where they they really want to get rid of the pike and they they will offer anglers a reward for keeping them
Kip
yeah I believe that I mean you know I know the clark's fork through Missoula down below it's got a really really good white population you know and they get big there's I'm talking to a few guys out there that have that have targeted them in the spring in the back slews and stuff like that that's a really big one so I mean if they're eating trout all day they got to be you know getting pretty big I would think
Katie
yeah yeah especially also if they're not in a location that has, I, you know, I feel like the only predator to a pike really in the water would be a muskie. And if, if those aren't present, I feel like the pike can just kind of run rampant and do whatever they want and grow as big as they want without any worry.
Kip
Yep. Yeah, pretty much.
Katie
Awesome Kip. Well, do you just want to plug your, your book and your outfit or anything before we finish up? Just so if anyone's interested in coming with you or buying the new book.
Kip
Yeah, it's the name of the service is Wildwood Float Trips. We're out of Monticello, Minnesota. We live right on the banks of the catch and release section of the Mississippi River for, well, it's catch and release now for muskies from the whole way down too. So, and smallmouth. And then the book is available October 1st and it's Orvis Guide to Muskie on the Fly. And it's a good primer for if you're thinking about getting into the sport or chasing them, It'll kind of, you know, it'll flatten the learning curve, I hope, a lot. A lot of good friends helped me with it that I've learned a ton, a ton of stuff from over the years. And without them, I couldn't have done it. So it's a pretty cool community as far as musky fishermen and guides. It's pretty tight-lipped and it's pretty close. And it's just a lot of respect out there for the people that have done it and the people that have taught me. I kind of got drug into it years ago by a friend. But it's a cool fish to chase, cool people that do it, and it's a pretty eclectic group. So if you've ever thought about it, I would encourage you to reach out to somebody that has and they can probably walk you through or get the book. It's hopefully helpful.
Katie
Well, I think anyone who wants to chase muskie is probably going to need quite a bit of help to get started because, you know, considering something like a normal trout fly fishing book, you know, usually most people have a little bit of background, but, you know, if I were starting musky fishing right now, I would be starting from square one, and I bet a lot of fly anglers are in the same boat. So I definitely encourage anyone who is interested in getting started musky fishing to check out that book and hopefully picked up a lot of tips from what you've been describing here because it does sound really exciting to do.
Kip
It's fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of hard work. lot harder.
Katie
I think that's probably part of the reward too, though, is really feeling like you earned it.
Kip
When your elbow's ready to fall off, I mean, you know, and that's, it's, yeah, it's pretty cool when it happens.
Katie
All right, Kip. Well, I really appreciate you kind of walking me through this because I really, I didn't know what to expect going into it, but it does sound like a ton of fun and I really appreciate your help and the tips you've given today.
Kip
Well, thank you. I appreciate the invitation to come on your podcast. It's a lot of fun.
Katie
All right, and that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long, and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com, in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks. And you can find me on social media under my name, Katie Berger, on Go Wild or at Fish Untamed on Instagram. And I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye, everyone.
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