Ep 31: A Virtual Campfire Chat, with Brian Barney
Brian Barney is a hunter, angler, and all-around outdoorsman. He is the host of the Eastmans’ Elevated and Eastmans’ Fly Cast podcasts. This episode was a bit of a grab bag of topics, as Brian and I met up on Zoom to have a virtual campfire chat. We went in without any specific topic in mind, and ended up having a great conversation about everything from chasing grayling in Alaska, to our favorite styles of fishing, and much more.
Instagram: @eastmans_flycast
Eastmans’ Fly Cast webpage: https://www.eastmans.com/fly-cast
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. Alright, welcome to episode 31 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I am talking to Brian Barney who many of you may know from his Eastman's Elevated and Eastman's Flycast podcasts. And this is the first episode I've done in a while that didn't really have much of an agenda. Brian said he was down to just have a fun authentic conversation about fishing and that sounded great to me so we just kind of turned this into a virtual campfire chat if you will. Just came to mind, hearing about Brian's fishing up in Montana and some of his adventures in Alaska. It was just kind of a grab bag of topics and it was a lot of fun. So I'll keep this short and sweet and we can just dive right into my conversation with Brian Barney. I am sitting down today with probably a pretty well-known name in both the hunting and fishing worlds at this point, Brian Barney. How are you doing today, Brian?
Brian
Oh, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on, Katie.
Katie
No problem at all. happy to have you on and looking forward to talking some fishing.
Brian
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's been a fun summer. I bet you've been fishing pretty hard too.
Katie
I have. It's been a little slower the past couple weeks gearing up for hunting season, but I'm getting ready to leave on my last trip of the year this weekend up into the flat tops, an area we haven't checked out before, so this will be kind of the last hurrah for the summer. Have you been getting out much?
Brian
I have, yeah. More towards the middle of summer. I made a few trips towards the end here chasing hoppers and fishing some new systems. But yeah, likewise, I get kind of busy as we start getting towards fall and getting ready towards bow hunts. I do a lot of early bow hunts. I need to get out and throw some hoppers some more. I hear they're fishing really good. But yeah, I had a great summer chasing around different dry fly hatches, fishing different systems. So it's just been a great season for me.
Katie
Now speaking of bow hunting, do you ever kind of combine your fishing and hunting and maybe take a rod in your backpack when you're out just in case you come across any water?
Brian
I sure should. I come across some of the best high mountain lakes and places with trout just rising like crazy, but no it seems like I'm usually focused on one or the other and it seems like when I head for fishing trips I've kind of got a sole focus. I need to be better at combining them, especially like places like New Zealand that I've been, you know, bow hunting for tar in the southern Alps and for red deer and things of that nature and walking up some of those streams, it killed me not to have my fly rod, but I was just so limited on time. So now that I've kind of paid my dues, I would like to do more of those dual purpose trips like that. What about you? Do you use your fishing trips as scouting or combine them when you're out in the woods?
Katie
I haven't in the past just because we're hunting. You know, we're still new enough to it that we're still kind of focusing on mastering our unit before we branch out and the area we go just has one small creek in it and not much else. So I have fished that creek for just to catch a couple little brook trout but it's generally after I've filled a tag and maybe I'm like just waiting for my boyfriend to fill a tag or something like that that I'll go down and take a couple casts. But like you said, it's kind of hard to to focus, you know, wholly on one thing when you've kind of got something else in the back of your mind. So I don't know. I think it's a little bit easier once you've kind of fulfilled one purpose and can then focus on the other one.
Brian
Yeah, you're right. I hear you there. It reminds me, I did do a little dual purpose like the last time I was in Alaska. I've got a buddy up there that loves to fish and we hunted caribou up there and we're up like in the Arctic up there north of the Brooks Range. And in that Arctic Ocean, they have those Arctic char that run back in. They're just beautiful fish so colored up and red bodied on the bottom. And, and so I'm so into catching. I love fishing for saltfish. I love fishing steelhead. I grew up in the western Washington and fishing the Olympic Peninsula and all these places. And I moved out west and fell in love with fly fishing. And that's really where I built my skills the last 20 years. But now going back to some of these places and fishing, you know, every year I do two weeks and on the Olympic Peninsula out there fishing for steelhead. And when I did go up for caribou up in the Arctic, I did, I had to fish for Arctic char and I put a couple days in fishing for him, drifting the systems down there and, and trying to hook into him, but I never did. I caught a bunch of grayling and things, but never hooked into an Arctic char. So now I'm trying to plan a trip where I really focus on Arctic up there. I just love to catch one of those fish.
Katie
Now does that season kind of correspond then to the season you were up there like for caribou? Did you know the fish running at that time? Does it work out pretty well?
Brian
Oh it does, yeah. So the big runs and it's tough to find information out on Arctic char. Arctic char, it's wild. So they run up these systems or these rivers from the Arctic and they run up these systems and you almost need a lake at the head of them because they winter in those lakes. So the river I was fishing is actually off the Hall Road, which is really easy to access. It's a road that goes 550 miles from Fairbanks all the way to the Arctic Ocean up there. And it follows this river, the Segreus, I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation so bad. I call it the Sag. So it starts S-A-G. That river has Arctic Char in it. And yeah, ocean fish is all about timing. They're not in those systems all the time. And so they run like in August and September. So yeah, it corresponds directly with the archery caribou season and up there off the haul road. It's bowhunting only five miles either side of the haul road. And so you've got, you know, about the last 100 miles of the road where the caribou are really migrating. And then you can you have all these, these access points on the Sag River for it's got to be close to 100 miles put ins and takeouts and Most of them are just like dirt banks off the highway and little spots that you can put in. But yeah, you can go have this amazing adventure on a budget and they do have good Arctic charr runs in there. I think we were a touch early as you want to be closer to late August, early September and we were about mid-August. But I did talk to some locals up there, one guy that was outfitting the river and he had caught a couple that week and I just hadn't tied into it. But yeah, you see grizzly bears, you see caribou, fish for Arctic char, you know, that come out of the Arctic Ocean. It was unreal, I just didn't hook up on any. So I just have to pay my dues and learn a little bit more. And talking to some fly guys, it sounds like those fish, I was like dead drifting stuff, which steelhead really like to eat, like a dead drift, like a nymph setup that you run, you know, with an indicator, like this technical nymphing. And so it's kind of what I was doing there. I also love to swing for steelhead and swing for, I tried swinging for Arctic char, but I heard from a fly guy that they love to eat on the strip, like a silver salmon. And so I need to go back and just refine these techniques and just see if I can get into one. But I've heard they really like to eat on the strip or eat it moving. And I did not fish it that way while I was fishing the Sag.
Katie
Yeah, maybe it's kind of a blessing in disguise that you didn't catch what you were going for, because now it's just a good excuse to take yourself back up there.
Brian
Oh, it is. Yeah. And I talked to Derek Olthuis, just a great guy and great fisherman. I had him on the podcast and he's really into catching those Arctic char. He loves it. And so he gave me some insight, you know, looking for those lakes and river systems and what he does, you know, the haul roads kind of like the blue collar every day. Like it's really easy to go do you can do it on the cheap but for not much more you can get like a bush plane flight to a system out there and those pilots are so knowledgeable they know where those Arctic char runs so just like having a conversation with them looking on the maps looking where they ended a lake and you can go fly an hour into one of these spots and fish one of those systems and I know that's how Derek has got them really good up there. So I think I just need to dive into the entire process of the research, you know, tying the flies and really spend the time up there. And like you say, a blessing in disguise, like failures, they're just the building blocks of success. And it planted the seed that I really want to catch one of these things, you know, so yeah, I got to plan a trip and go back.
Katie
Yeah, you don't want to do too well on the first trip and spoil it for future trips. I was I had a guy on the podcast, maybe back in early on in the show. And he was a guide up in Alaska and he was talking me through the process of getting a bush plane and picking a spot and having the pilot fly you out there. I was just itching to go online and research. It sounds pretty affordable too compared to a lot of the other "exotic" destinations. Alaska is pretty doable.
Brian
That's exactly right. Yeah, it is doable even with the planes and the flights out there. It's just not that bad. I think those planes can be pretty expensive if you're flying game animals back and like if you harvest a caribou or a moose and have to fly it out of there. But really the trip in and back isn't too bad. And I've done a big float trip. I did a hundred miles of a system that tied into the Yukon. What a wild adventure. It's like no feeling on planet earth. And I love hunting all the remote places of the lower 48. And really the world for that matter. But like hunting up there it's like or fishing up there it's just a different feeling when that plane drops you off and flies out of there. And there's no roads, no civilization, nothing for a hundred miles. And it's a hundred miles of muskeg and tundra that you couldn't even walk through. In five different river systems, you'd have to cross. Like it's just a, it's a wild feeling to be in a place that you can't walk out of. And you really have to be careful. I know floating that river, you know, I'm good on the sticks or have been rowing my whole life, but those Alaskan rivers are dangerous. There's a lot of sweepers, which are, you know, trees where the root system kind of gives way or the river collapses the embankment and they fall over where you can get, you know, hung up in your boat. And they, you know, there's no guarantee that anybody's even floated that river that year. And you're doing 100 miles of this, you know, this, this coastal river, this big river that you got to float down. So, you definitely have to be real cognizant of your safety when you're left alone like that. But it's a really cool feeling.
Katie
Yeah, that's one of those, I mean I definitely have never experienced anything that remote. And even, you know, where we go generally, I can rely on the fact that even if, you know, my phone were to die and I lost all my navigation equipment and all that, you know, if it came down to it, I could pull out my compass, know that the road I started on is north of me and just walk north and eventually I'll hit it. Is it almost a little bit like scary or overwhelming to be in a place that, you know, you really are out there and you know, unless you have the skills it takes to get out or the equipment, you know, you're kind of, you're kind of out of luck. Is that a little scary or overwhelming?
Brian
Yeah, I, you know, I don't know about scary or overwhelming. Like it's scary when the plane first flies off and you know you're on your own, but then you get, you just get dialed into the task at hand. And just like you've built the confidence in these Colorado wild places that that you're fishing where you understand that, yeah, you can pull out a compass and you know the road you came in on, you just have the same awareness when you're out there and you are cognizant of your safety and doing things right. But it's just like a true adventure. I'd say it's more exciting than overwhelming. It's a fun feeling to be out on your own like that. And it just puts the pressure on to make sure you're making all right decisions. But that's fun. Being immersed in that, that is the fun of fishing or adventuring or hunting or whatever it is. It's just when you get started and you're trying to solve that puzzle or figure out those fish or float down the system and make sure you hit your takeouts. It's fun to be immersed in that.
Katie
Kind of be self-reliant and push your comfort zone a little bit.
Brian
Yes, absolutely.
Katie
Now you said you did catch some grayling up there even though you didn't get the Arctic char you were looking for. What size grayling were you catching up there?
Brian
The grayling, they are so hungry up there. They've never seen a fly, they've never seen a presentation. Every fishy spot you put it, it seems like a grayling hits it. And they tend to go, I'd say about 14 to 20 inches maybe. They may go north of 20, 21, 22. Most of them are around that 14 to 20 mark, I would say, and really fun to fish for.
Katie
Yeah, we've got some grayling here and they tend to be a little bit smaller, maybe average 8 to 14 or so. But they're just so beautiful and they're fun to catch. Like you said, they're pretty eager. They're not quite as, they don't seem to be as wary as a trout. They're just hungry and happy to play along. Do you guys keep any of them? We often keep our grayling and they're pretty tasty.
Brian
Yeah, I think we did cook up a couple. Yeah, we let most of them go But yeah one night or a couple nights over the fire. We'd cook a couple up and have some fresh meat So they do eat really good.
Katie
Yeah, I was actually surprised I feel like the when you look at their body structure, they almost remind you of I don't know Maybe maybe like a sucker. I mean, I know they're related to trout, but they just they don't really resemble trout too much But then they have that like nice flaky white flesh and kind of surprising based on the way they look
Brian
Yeah, you're right. They do look like a sucker. They don't They don't look as appetizing as they taste, but yeah, they eat really good. Like you say, they're really firm and white meat and flakes off pretty good. So yeah, they eat good. They're a fun fish. We've got a few here in the Madison, which I live in Ennis, Montana, just south of Bozeman. So I'm surrounded by great rivers, but I live right on the Madison River. And we have some graylings in there. They're a pretty rare catch. I'd say I catch one about every few years, I would say. Like I don't get a lot of them. But we do catch them in the Madison and they are beautiful coloration and then that big tail fan and then There's a pond nearby me or a lake system. And there's actually a bunch of lakes. They're called Oxalata lakes for these oxalata lizards that live in them. And there's a bunch of spread out lakes. There's some really nice fish, some really nice cutthroat in them, but there's one that just has grayling in it. And so I stumbled upon that years ago and every once while go out and catch a few out of there.
Katie
That's fun. Is the Madison at all like connected to that? Is that why there's a just a small handful in the Madison and not like larger populations?
Brian
No, you know, they're not connected. I'm you know, I think the Grayling, you know, I'm not sure the history behind it or why, you know, I think the rainbow and brown trout are such aggressive feeders and I think they've just you know, they they they outlast or they outcompete the grayling for the food source. And so we just don't seem to have a lot of grayling in that river. And I think it's a good problem to have because we have so many browns and rainbows in there that are such ferocious eaters. But I think that's the reason why, but I'm just guessing at it.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, it kind of makes sense with what I've experienced here in Colorado. There's one primary place that's kind of the well-known place to catch grayling in Colorado. It's a reservoir up north. And then there's at least one or two alpine lakes that are known for having them. But as far as I know, the only other fish in those lakes are primarily cutthroats. I know the reservoir does have some tiger muskies, but not a significant population. But it seems like they kind of coexist with the cutthroats, but not with the rainbows or browns.
Brian
Oh, interesting. Yeah, same as what I find.
Katie
Huh, so I wonder if they're just kind of the same boat as the cutthroats, where they'll just get out-competed and kind of driven out. But yeah, something interesting to think about, I guess.
Brian
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Katie
So I guess I got a little bit ahead of myself, because I normally start off by getting a little bit of background. And I know you mentioned that you kind of came out west and discovered fly fishing. How did you get your start in the outdoors? Did you have a dad who took you out? Or was that kind of a self-exploration when you were younger?
Brian
Yeah, so family-based as a kid, my dad- not everybody was into fly fishing. in the Western Washington, it's a lot of spinning rods. And then my dad was a charter boat skipper and loved to be out on the ocean. And so he ran charter boats for years and finally bought his own boat. And so I would spend summers out there on the ocean catching silvers and kings and lingcod and sea bass and things of that nature. And so that was a lot of my fishing experience, but I always loved the summertime and when he'd take me to cricks and into rivers. And then I had an uncle that was really into fly fishing that now comes out every year and takes me fly fishing, or I take him fly fishing out here or take him out in my boat out here. But as a kid being 13, 14, 15, he'd take me on these camping trips where we'd go explore these river systems and fish. And so that's really what hooked me on it. And so I always enjoyed fishing. I really enjoyed fishing for steelhead, but I wasn't that good at it. Like I just didn't have the knowledge base. I was out and I was fishing and learning rivers and paying my dues and things. But I was a kid and I wasn't really absorbing it or immersed in it. And it wasn't until I moved out to Montana, like at 19. And then I just immerse myself into, to, to everything outdoors, fly fishing. And there's so many good river systems around here and, and then made friends that, you know, I was able to learn things from them and, and go out with them and learn different systems. And so, then it's just like this last 20 years of just really building my fly fishing skill to be able to take that anywhere. And so, now, like I was telling you before, like I go back to my home back in the Olympic Peninsula there, which is the farthest northwest corner of the United States. And it's just this coastal rainforest. And it's got these, you know, 20 different of these river systems that are glacial-fed, teal blue that flow through old growth for back. Now I can take all this fly fishing knowledge and this river knowledge that I've gained over the last 20 years and go back and fish those home rivers. And now I do really good out there. I think this year I did 10 days and hooked 12 steelhead out there. And they're just the hardest fighting fish on the planet. They're bright silver with sea lice and they run up these systems to spawn up and through there. and it's still the Wild West. There's not a lot of put-ins and take-outs and there's whitewater. Sometimes you're pulling out over a highway or on a gravel bar. So it's still just a wild place. But yeah, it's just like these last 20 years of paying my dues and then fishing the off seasons on all these great rivers in Montana. And it's really like the secret local seasons of fishing the spring and the fall and the winter on these really good river systems, you catch some really nice fish. And then, you know, summer for me is all about dry fly hatches. You know, I love the salmon fly hatch. I chased that this year for like three weeks on three different river systems. And you're really hunting for big fish. It's right after the runoff. And so everything's high water and the brush and the weeds and like this real goal fly fishing, trying to get your cast Underbrush and get your your men's in and your drifts down, you know, to catch those fish on those bank lines and they're just great big brown trout and it's like a Like a white shark taking a seal when they take those salmon flies. It's a three inch dry fly that comes off and I you guys have them there in Colorado to I know so I love chasing that in the summertime, but Yeah. And so my outdoor start was really in bow hunting and freelance writing and and then got into some filming and then started the podcast and the podcast did really well. And so this was kind of the next step for me is my love of fly fishing to try to come out with a podcast and kind of make a splash and build an audience in the fly fishing world and I have so many like guide and outfitter buddies, so many knowledgeable people that I fish with that I just had this this great lineup of great guests that were buddies that we were able to get along with. And so it's really been fun. I think I'm only into this fishing venture about six months now or so doing this podcast, but I'm really enjoying it.
Katie
Yeah, so tell me more about the podcast. I am subscribed to your fishing podcast, But is that, is that, um, do you kind of get your start in that through your Eastman's Elevated podcast? How did you get into the podcasting scene in general?
Brian
Yeah, so, um, gosh, I was just, I was writing all the time and having, um, having these great adventures out west and I had, I had kind of, I had built my name, I had built my skill level, and then I'd built my name by writing and talking about the blue collar adventures that are out there and the do it yourself adventures and how it's just about, you know, putting in your work and building your skill set and you can have this consistent success year after year on these critters that you dream about as far as L great big six points and seven points and mule deer, you know, the ones with stickers and kickers and wide ones like those, those bucks and bulls are out there and they're out there, you know, on public land for for us to enjoy. And so I started having all these adventures. So that I wanted to share, but I'm only writing an article or two every single month. And so I basically just started the hunting podcast and I had been working for the company Eastman's for a long time. And so I got just a few episodes in and then we started talks about teaming up for the podcast as they have such a great reach in Western hunting and I'd always had good workings and good dealings with them. And so I teamed up with them for the podcast. And so I've been doing it now about five years, the hunting podcast, and it's just gone great. I got in at a really good time and we've been able to build a good audience and everybody really enjoys it and they're passionate listeners. And so I just had this idea this winter as I was, you know, leaving on one of my fly fishing trips that, gosh, I would really like to start this fly fishing podcast. So yeah, I just started the conversation again with Eastman's and had this idea. never branched out from Western hunting so this is brand new to them but it's a perfect fit. They're Wyoming based. All of those guys love to fly fish. You know, Guy Eastman, he's known for his big game hunting but the guy is a heck of a fisherman and he goes hard all summer long and he only fishes streamers but he loves chasing big brown trout with streamers and so it was just a perfect fit for us so now we're just trying to grow this podcast and kind of get the word out there.
Katie
That's funny that you mention that because I think I may have heard it on the Meat Eater podcast recently, but the fact that not everyone who fishes hunts, but almost everybody who hunts does fish. Out West it does seem to be that not only do they fish, but they fish pretty hard through the summer just because hunting season is pretty limited. Most people can hunt maybe a max of six months a year if you're doing both fall and spring and maybe doing a little bit of traveling, but that leaves the summer open. better way to kind of get yourself in shape for for hunting season than to do some of these backcountry fishing trips. And just kind of, you know, you can use it as a scouting. It just seems that almost everyone I know who hunts also has gotten into fishing and in particular fly fishing out here in the West. It seems to be kind of a cohesive group out here.
Brian
Oh, you're so you're so right. So spot on, Katie. Like, yeah, it is. Well, there's so many correlations between them. It's like fishing, to be out there and to be able to pick which stretch you're going to float and then to have the competency to be able to drift down and keep yourself safe. But you get to go have this adventure on the water and there's never any guarantees that you're going to catch fish or find fish. Fish like where fish like, they hold in holes, but you've got to unravel the mystery. So many correlations to hunting, to disappearing on public ground and trying to find big game animals, you know, and and then I love like the high pressure situations like the salmon fly out of a drift boat down a good bank. You know, you've got one spot to be able to throw that cast and get your men's and it's like this high pressure fishing and then you gotta, you know, just like shooting a bow at a big game animal when that fish takes, you have to set the hook and every fish eats differently. Some you have to wait on and let them eat it. Some they eat it and you've got to set the hook quick in big water. I always like set my rod high straight to the sky, but there's nothing worse than having a 24 inch fish come up. And then you totally duff the hook set, miss the fish, you know, and that was your one chance for the day. And so, like I just love that high pressure. And just like we I think we started talking about like just the immersion in it. Like when I am fly fishing, there's nothing else on planet Earth I'm thinking about I'm thinking about which run are they holding in where I'm going to drift? Can I walk up here and fish? Oh, I you know, and, and also like keying into patterns like I fished the Henry's fork down in Idaho this year, and I started to find these fish would eat in front of rocks. And I always know there's a pillow of water or cushion in front of the rocks where the fish will hold and all maybe get one out of every 50 times I tried on the Madison but all of a sudden I tapped into this on the Henry's fork, where they were all sitting in front of these rocks eating on these these pillows. And so, like, once you can key into that, you know, you can start sticking your fly there and catching more fish. And so, like, I just love being immersed in the process and being out and I love that fly fishing. If I have a free day or a free afternoon or a free evening, like I can go have this adventure on the water where, you know, hunting, it seems like the bar for entry is a little bit more I've got to plan a whole weekend or a week long trip where we're fishing and I just have a free couple hours after work and I'm into an adventure. So many correlations. I just love them both. It does seem like people enjoy both of them out west and really get into fly fishing, which I think is cool.
Katie
Yeah. What's nice is that, like you said, with something like hunting, you're committing a little bit more. You do need that larger chunk of time and you can fit fishing in just an afternoon but also, you know, it's kind of nice, you know, on one hand it's nice to have hunting where your stakes are pretty high. Like you are, you're really pushing yourself to your limit and if you're lucky you're going to come home with, you know, a year of meat and a great story to tell. But with fishing, you know, you still get that high pressure situation that kind of takes you outside your comfort zone a bit but at the end of the day if you miss, you know, one fish you'll probably get another shot, you know, in an hour or so, you know, even if you're talking about some big fish. So it's kind of nice to have that dichotomy of, you know, when you're hunting you're really, you know, high risk, high reward. And then with fishing it's the same type of activity but the, you know, the loss isn't so great when you do flub it. Like you said, when you try to set the hook and it just, you know, goes south. It's kind of nice to have both of those options so you're not just heartbroken, you know, all year long. You can get lots of shots at fish in a day of fishing so it's not quite as, you know, high risk as hunting is.
Brian
Oh you're right yeah one the fun of hunting and fishing too is like getting into like getting takes getting strikes trying to set the hook getting fish to eat and you're right there's a little bit more action involved with with trout fishing like you can have a a little bit more success at it now the adverse is like trying to fish for a steelhead that can be a fish for a thousand casts where you might fish for seven days and you might get one eat and if you miss that fish and he's off like it's just crushing. It's like, it's like missing a big buck or a big bull, you know, but but you know, when you hook into one, you're just into the fight of your life and you catch or you land about a third of the fish you hook because they're just so on fire and so acrobatic and they'll run into root wads and things and so that can be that that high pressure where you fish for so many days, dusk to dawn to finally get your chance to tie into one. And let me tell you, like, put into something, the more it means to you, catch a big steelhead like that, and I've got them in the water and you, you keep them, of course, wet the whole time, you know, the the runs are in bad shape, we don't keep any steelhead out there anymore. I think you can keep one native a year, but it's all catch and release. But sitting there and bathing with a great big steelhead that you caught that you had five days into and it's as long as your leg and weighs 15-18 pounds. It's as big a high to me as anything I've ever done in life or any big game animal I've ever killed. It's just absolutely awesome.
Katie
I appreciate that you still have that outlook after telling me that you caught like what 12 steelhead in 10 days. So I think you've maybe mastered the steelhead there, but I appreciate that you still have that reverence for them.
Brian
Oh absolutely. Well, steelhead's all about timing and reading the waters. And this year's timing was just on and I've had years where I go out and fish for 10 days and maybe only hook a couple of them too. So this year was kind of the payoff and probably the best year I've had in about the last seven or so. My timing was just really right on the rivers where there was a lot of fish in the systems. They just come up with high water, which makes those steelhead run in there. And then the systems had dropped a little bit, which they dropped the river cleans and clears to where you get enough visibility to where you can get them to eat. And the water was warm enough where they'll they'll eat on the swing, which is a really fun way to catch them where you know you fish in a two handed spay rod and you know you cast your spay rod kind of quartering downstream from you and then you swing it through the run and then take a couple steps down and swing it again. But there's a lot to reading water and reading the right run for swing. Usually you want it about three to five foot depth, about walking speed water. I love inside corners. All this steelhead fishing and fishing for this steelhead has really helped me target big trout in my own home rivers. I swing a lot for big brown trout in the spring and in the summer. wild, you can cover this water where people aren't effective in drift boats or covering it because they get one run down with nymphs or one run with dry flies. But to swing that fly all the way across that inside corner in a spay rod too, you know, you can cast them so far, you know, so you can cast them along the river. So I've done really good like targeting these spots and taking a lot of the things that I've learned from steelhead water and bringing it to brown trout water and even fishing spay rods for brown trout. It's been really fun. It seems like you take skills from every place you go and then you're able to put those in your toolbox and use them on different systems and different rivers for whatever you're fishing.
Katie
Yeah, I agree. I grew up fishing warm water species, still in a river usually, but bass and walleye and things. It has definitely translated over to trout. And that's something I was kind of thinking of when you were talking about how it kind of took you until a little bit later in life. You know, I think you said maybe 19 or 20, where you really started focusing on your knowledge of fishing and learning why things work and where fish are going to be. Whereas when you were a child, you were kind of just going through the motions and, you know, just seeing what worked. And I feel like, you know, there's something to be said for when you're a kid and you're just kind of going with the flow, doing whatever feels right but you're not really putting any intricate knowledge into the picture but I still think that time is pretty valuable. I feel like having grown up fishing for warm water fish in a river, even though I wasn't doing anything scientific, I wasn't learning the entomology or anything like that, but I feel like once I started to take fishing more seriously and then picked up fly fishing, I was able to look at a water and still be able to tell like that looks like a fishy spot. You know that water looks good but I couldn't even explain why. I just felt it and I feel like there's something to that of just the experience gained over years even if you don't know why you're still picking up that knowledge along the way and it's kind of an intuitive thing after that.
Brian
You're so right. Yeah there's like thinking about fishing and where fish should be and then there's like this instinct and our instinct is built, like overall our experiences and the different places we've... And you're right, it's not something we think of. It's just a feel or it just comes instinctive, like where to put that thing and where to look for those fish. And there's a lot to that. That feel is what makes you fishy. It seems like you can't just dissect everything and put everything in its column or numbers or make everything make sense. Like there's a lot of thinking that goes involved too, but you got to have that that fishy feel, that instincts, and really it just comes from time on the water and and paying attention when you when you catch fish or where you see fish at.
Katie
For sure, and I feel like that's you know it's a very satisfying feeling when you when you get that cast and you you know your fly lands and you're just like I know I'm gonna get a strike on this cast. Like there's just something really exciting where you know sometimes you're fishing and you're kind of going through the motions, you're not really too confident, but then there's other times where, you know, your fly lands and you are absolutely ready. You're like, "There is a fish right here, I'm absolutely sure, and there's a 99% chance he's going to take my fly." And there's there's just no way to explain that anticipation when you know it's going to happen, and when it does, it just kind of brings everything together, and it's just such a wonderful feeling.
Brian
Oh, isn't it? And especially like fishing a new place, when you make a read on the water, or where to put it, or where you want to fish it, or how you want to fish it. And you get that payoff, like you're saying, where you put it in the right spot and he eats it right where he should off the bug that you know he should eat. But I love that, like fishing new systems, it seems like even though all that information transposes to different waters, it seems like you still have to prove it and catch that first fish. You have to prove your theory right. And yeah, that is the fun of it, isn't it? is that anticipation of knowing that this is a good run and he should eat it in here and just trying to be ready to do my part when he does eat it.
Katie
You know, I'm really glad you said that because I feel like I've been talking and hearing a lot recently about, you know, appreciating your home river, you know, not trying to have to go exotic or go to a new river every time, like being able to appreciate what's at home. But that said, I agree that, you know, it's easy to go fish your home river and go to same spots you always go to, but there's something really rewarding about going to a river you've never been to before and being able to read it from scratch and look around and say, "This is where I want to fish," and actually be able to be successful there because it tells you that you're not relying on past experience in terms of what spot you're going to, but you're kind of tapping into what you've learned throughout all of the places you've fished and being able to apply that to a new area. It's just a really satisfying feeling.
Brian
Oh, you're so right, Katie. We're explorers by nature and it feels good to go explore a new river or walk down a new bank line or float a new section you've never floated in. So as much as I like using the knowledge on the rivers I fish and I do a combination of, I love to explore. And that goes back again to building that hunting skill or that fishing skill and that fishing instinct. The more places you can go and solve the puzzle and figure it out and catch fish, even if you didn't kill them in there, like you kill at your home river, but you caught a few fish and you solve the puzzle of the day, whatever that hatch was, whatever bugs you were fishing, where they were lying in the river, the new place you explored, it's so fulfilling. And really, it's going to make us all better fishermen in the end, because that is the true test or challenge, is to be able to go to a new place, figure it out, and go catch fish. That's what I love about fly fishing and all the opportunities out west. Even around my home here, I've got so many great rivers and so many great sections. I've been exploring for 20 years on Missouri, Big Hole, Beaverhead, Madison, all these different systems and even I'm still finding new systems and new places to fish every year. Like I've been trying to get at every river I can for the last 20 years and I've only touched a fingernail of it. There's so much exploring to do. And as much as people love to fish nowadays, like there is really good fishing to be had. There is big fish out there that live in these systems. Like you can still have these just amazing experiences, you know, just just by exploring and learning new places.
Katie
Yes, and speaking of your home area, what types of places do you like to go in your area of Montana? Are you more of a bigger river guy? I know you've mentioned the Madison a couple of times, or do you do any of the like Alpine lakes? Do you have any of those in your area? What's your preferred kind of place to go?
Brian
Definitely my preferred is rivers. I like the action and reading the water. And so I tend to fish quite a few rivers and we've got so many different size systems. So, you know, I love fishing big rivers, how big fish can sit in there, the water can be a little tougher to read. So I like fishing those all the way to small streams. And we've got some amazing ones around here, like the Ruby and the Beaverhead. I fished the Boulder the other day. That are, you know, they don't, they're not as big as systems, but they're still great trout fisheries and they can still grow big fish in them. And so I love fishing those systems as well. And then as far as the lake deal, like our high mountain lakes have a lot of smaller trout in them. We don't get those great big ones that you guys do out of these high mountain lakes. And so I ended up fishing, you know, maybe a couple times a summer and I love to fish them like during ice off in the spring. And so, you know, I do have a couple lakes that are around that do hold bigger fish. And so when the ice comes off, I love to go fish those things. Our local lake, Ennis Lake is a great fishery. And then we have a Hebgen Lake that sits kind of by the park. It's a bigger lake that holds some really good fish. So I do like to mix and match some lake fishing. But I have to tell you, Katie, is that I'm not as good at fishing those lakes. And I'm still trying to pay my dues and learn more. I have some buddies that are really good at fishing these lakes. And I'm still just trying to figure it out. But I like that the bigger fish can hold in these lakes. And I also like that you can get away from the summer pressure on the rivers on these things. So I try to do mix and matching, but I would say that I'm mostly rivers.
Katie
Yeah, I kind of know what you mean about, you're not really super sure like what you're doing on those lakes compared to the rivers. And I've experienced the same thing where I almost feel like the barrier to entry is lower on a lake. You know, if someone's going out for the first time, I think it's a great idea to take somebody fly fishing on a lake because you're not worried about the currents and getting a dead drift and things like that. But that said I feel like a lot of people learn to cast on a lake then they go to a river, they fall in love with the moving water and they don't go back to the lake. I've spent many days on lakes where I go up thinking this is a shoe-in, it's a lake, I don't have to worry about the currents or where the fish are holding and then I don't see single fish all day because I don't even know where they're holding. Whereas a river it's pretty obvious once you know how to read a river, the fish are going to be in those spots that are a little bit slower that allow them to relax and catch food as it comes by. But I feel like in the lakes, there's masters of still water fishing that know a thousand times more than I'll ever know. And I still get skunked on lakes where I'm just confused as to what I did wrong. So they're definitely a puzzle in themselves, but I get what you mean about appreciating the moving water. It's definitely a little bit more interactive a lot of the time and definitely fun to fish.
Brian
Yeah, it's a good way to describe it. But same thing with lakes, I can just be a little lost on those. But I'm getting better at reading the lakes and where the fish should be. I look for the deep sides of the lakes or drop-offs and things of that nature. Or I look for springs that come in or where the inlet or the outlet. So I'm getting better at it and need to spend more time, but I haven't quite hit the pay dirt that I'm looking for yet. But it's just more time on those things and learning which systems hold good fish and paying my dues, building that fishing experience on those things.
Katie
For sure. Now, I know you mentioned earlier that one of the great things about Montana is just – I know you guys have year-round fishing, and most of the West I feel like has pretty year-round fishing for trout. Do you have a preferred season? I'm sure the summer's pretty busy up there with tourists coming in, but I'm sure your winters are also pretty brutal. Do you have a preferred time to be out?
Brian
Yeah, I like that off season fishing. And so I love winter time fishing around here. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, but it's a good chance to catch really good fish and there's nobody on the river. And so in the winter time, I kind of wait for high pressure systems to come in. Usually don't fish below freezing temperatures, but even in the middle of winter in Montana, it'll, we'll have a high pressure that'll move in. We'll get 30 to 50 degree weather, nobody on the water. It's open year round. And so able to really go out and get some good fishing. I love the spring season. I'd say I get the majority of my fishing in the spring season. I'd love spring coming into early summer. It's really a local system on a lot of these rivers. I like the fish get more active. They eat a streamer better. It's just not as much pressure, good experience, good weather. So I love that spring, early summer fish is really good. As we get our hatches start coming off, we get to see our dry flies. And then as it kind of gets later into summer, kind of call it the dog days of summer, the water temp kind of warms up. You know, it's still good fishing to be had. And we do have a really good hopper season that goes on here. Last year was just epic. was like a biblical the amount of grasshoppers that were around was like a one in 10 year grasshopper hatch. And so, you know, that's really fun in late summer. You know, the fall, so many guys catch so many good fish in the fall. And, you know, I just, I want to take more advantage of this season, I do have a couple places that I make sure I go every fall, but I'm so I'm doing so many bow hunts in the fall. And I'm so busy that I don't take advantage of the fall fishing as much as I should. So this year, that is my goal is that in between hunts or when I have a free afternoon or a free evening is to make sure I get out on the river and chase some of those big browns that are getting colored up, getting more aggressive chasing streamers getting ready for their spawn. So I do want to take more advantage of the fall but I love like, I just think of them as local seasons as the guides aren't on the water real heavy. You don't see many boats or many people out and there's still all those fish in the river. So I love the wintertime and springtime and the little bit of fall fishing that I get to do in that early summer is just great too.
Katie
Now do you guys get hit by runoff pretty bad in the springtime? Are you fishing through that or is your runoff not too bad in your area? Are you far enough from some of the snowpack?
Brian
Yeah, we do get a runoff here that usually lasts about two weeks or so is all. And it fishes really good leading up to it and after it. It usually takes place like late May, early June. And actually those salmon flies come off just as soon as the high water starts to go down and the river starts to clear is when those salmon flies will hatch. And so you get to fish them in a lot of high water in that early summer. So we do have a runoff of a couple of weeks, but it's wild here that, you know, rivers kind of hit runoffs at different stages too around here. So if you're crafty with your timing, a lot of times you can go to different systems and fish those while your money river or the couple money rivers are high and blown out, you can fish other ones. And so you can kind of avoid a lot of the runoff around here just by targeting different river systems that clear at different times.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like we're, like you said, we have those salmon flies down here too. And it's always kind of a toss up as to what week it's gonna happen. And I think I've heard the phrase, if you are just finding out online that the salmon flies are hatching, you're too late. Like by the time you get up to them, they're gonna be gone. 'Cause they're so brief, but I think we're around the same time. Like right after that runoff starts to peter out just a little bit, kind of that June, like early June is when those salmon flies are starting to really be big. And I do feel like we have maybe a bit of a longer runoff than you do based on what you described. I feel like sometimes we're down for maybe a month with just that chocolate milk water. But right after that is, I feel like, one of the best times of the year to go. Like you said, if you're not going in the fall when a lot of those big fish are caught, that right after a runoff early summer, when it hasn't gotten too hot yet, that's gotta be one of the best times to go.
Brian
Oh, it so is. Yeah, that hold in that water as you get, like the runoff is, you know, it's not running as much water or as much CFS, but it's right after that runoff. And so the water is still really high. It just begins to clear. And so it's up in the grass and up in the trees and up in the willows. And a lot of these fish can't sit in the center current because there's so much water coming down these systems as it is still runoff. It's just like late runoff, you know? And so the rivers are so high. And so I love how the fish hold to the bank lines. I love fishing for them that time of year. And yeah, there's a bunch of really good hatches that come off. Kesha, we've got our brown drakes that come off, the great big mayfly that come off, actually they're right before the runoff, right before the runoff goes, but after the runoff we have our salmon flies, we have our caddis, we have our golden stones, our little sallies. We've got a lot of things that come off right in that timeframe. And those salmon flies are a wild hatch and it's really finicky, like you say. It is hit or miss on those hatches. And I got my butt kicked plenty this year before I saw that payoff of that really good day of fishing where you got 50 big fish that eat it all the way down the river. But it's almost like you have to pay your dues. And I'm the eternal optimist as I always think every day is gonna be the day that's that red hot fishing. But you have to put in your time on that hatch. And that hatch, so those bugs live there a four years water for four years, they grow. And then right at that time at the runoff, it's temperature based on the water. And as the water warms up, these salmon flies, they're in nymph form under the water. And they feel the need to crawl up on rocks. And that's why they're a stone fly, or climb up on trees, or roots, or grass, or whatever it is. They climb up, and they hatch. And then they hatch this beautiful three-inch dry fly that comes out of the casing that was just living in the water. and then they fly upstream and they mate, they drop their eggs in the water and as they're dropping their eggs, they have to land on the water and that's where those fish can really eat them. And as they fly up water and they hatch, like the hatch itself is all temperature based and so as they start crawling to the bank, it seems like this hatch moves its way up a river system. So it'll start on the bottom of the river system and it'll work its way up in pulses. And so a big part of the salmon fly hatch is getting on the right stretch of water where the bugs are hatching and they're landing on the water. But it's so easy to be low on the hatch, to be high on the hatch, and you just can't get them to eat. But it is absolute magic when you can hit it right, time it right, put in your days, and then you get on that water and they're hatching and they're flying and they're landing on the water. The trout aren't gorged yet. There's so many factors that go into it. when you hit it right, there's just no finer day of fly fishing on planet Earth that I found it is so fun. And so I chase it really hard in that early summer on multiple different systems. And like I say, I get my butt kicked a lot but I hit those payoff days I got a really good one on the big hole this year where it landed so many nice fish and finally got it good on the Madison I got my butt kicked all the way up the lower end for the first 40 or 50 miles. I just couldn't I had these western hunting summits I was doing for four days where I would be gone for four and then be back for three days in the evening and really try to get it. I got my butt kicked all the way up that river and then finally got it really good up on the top side of the river and got a good couple days which was my pay dirt. It's a really fun hatch to focus on. I just love fishing that thing.
Katie
Are dry flies your top fly if you could only fish one style of fly for the rest of your life?
Brian
It would be dry if it's summertime. I like these big hatches because they catch big fish. I don't fish a lot of the smaller hatches. I got one or two days on caddis this year. I caught a good day on brown drakes this year, which is a good dry fly hatch that's bigger with those big fish. And then salmon flies I throw hard. As I get into summer, I really want to see a fish come up and eat a dry fly. because I feel like that's what summer is all about, and I've only got two months to throw it. And there's a lot of big fish that eat those big hatches that come off. But no, I enjoy all types of fishing. Like, I really got into throwing streamers this spring, where that was all I was throwing. And I've thrown streamers from my boat a lot, but I haven't really got out and worked bank lines with streamers and really focused on it, targeting these bigger fish with these streamers and doing, you know, either swinging them or pull stripping them, but really learning how to fish that water effectively and catch those bigger fish. And so I love throwing streamers that targets those bigger ones. But then, you know, I love technical nymphing, you know, in the wintertime, I'll throw a streamer, but the most effective way to target these fishes by nymphing and I am really into technical nymphing. Like I love it for trout. I love it for steelhead. It's cool because I I love swinging for steelhead and the big runs. But then as you're going down in a raft, there's all this like sexy water on the bank lines that these steelhead love that you can't even fish from a bank line, but from a boat, you can reach it and that technical nymphing efficient indicator, but there's so much to it as your leader length and your weight, it all plays a role in how your bugs drift and how they fish and you want to take the bottom but not hang up on the bottom and being able to get those really good drifts down below you, be able to stack line and get it below you and extend your drift down to be able to set the hook. I absolutely love nymphing and it's super effective in these off months in the winter and in the spring and in the fall. And so I love nymphing. I love throwing dry flies and I love fishing streamers. It would be really hard for me to pick, Katie, one tactic that I would choose for the rest of time. They all work at different times of the year with different hatches and bugs that come off.
Katie
It's really refreshing to hear you say that because I feel the same way. I like doing whatever I feel is going to be best at the time. I appreciate that different times of the year in different areas and different species all require something a little bit different but especially you mentioning that it does still feel technical at times to be throwing an indicator. If I had to choose one style of fishing for the rest of my life I would probably choose dries but I am definitely not one to shy away from throwing an indicator with a couple nymphs below and like you said it could be the difference between just a couple inches on your leader or just a split shot or a little bit of weight can make all the difference in whether you catch fish and sometimes I don't really enjoy how much people look down on something that they deem too easy as throwing like an indicator and I'm like it's not always that easy. There's a lot of thought that does go into it at times and while sometimes it is a gimme, there's a lot of times where I'm getting my butt kicked with an indicator and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong and just switching up one or two little things can make all the difference so I appreciate that you kind of see the value in all the different styles of fishing instead of just feeling like only one is the right way to fly fish.
Brian
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it is looked down upon, which I don't quite get or understand. I know it may be the easiest way to catch a trout, but there's so much to it. It's like, yeah, if a guide sets up your whole rig to fish that river system, you're going to tie into fish fishing that system. But to be out and to figure it all out on your own with, like you say, your leader length and your weight, and also skill level. I've seen two people fish nymph setups. One guy that is really good in technical and is really honed his craft at nymphing, and he'll catch 10 times as many fish as the guy that isn't honed in and hasn't worked on his nymphing tactics. And you can tell him to mend, you can show him how to drift it. Again, it comes down to that instincts and that feel. And it seems like some people are just fishy. you fish with some guys, you can be throwing the exact same setup as them the exact same drift, the exact same everything, and they just catch more fish, you know, and so it's trying to become one of those fishy guys that wherever you go, you catch fish and are you good at and yeah, I think nymphing in around here, you know, there's so many guys that do run quality nymphing setups, you know, as their guide days that, you know, it makes these fish tougher to catch off nymphs. And so yeah, you know, I definitely don't look down upon it and embrace it every time I get to go out. And it, it may be one of my favorite styles of fishing, you know, is nymphing just because you can always catch fish off them, you know, so yeah. Yeah. I really enjoy it.
Katie
For sure. Well, Brian, I have taken more than an hour of your time and I know you just got back from a long trip in the wilderness, so I don't want to tie you up too much. I'm sure you're probably ready to pass out, but, um, before we finish, um, do you want to just remind people of where they can find your podcast? both the Eastman's Elevated and the Flycast, in case people are interested in either the hunting or the fishing.
Brian
Yeah, Eastman's Elevated, Eastman's Flycast, so they're everywhere you can find podcasts. You can search them, and then we have an Instagram page for both podcasts that I run and try to put out good content there. So yeah, you can find me there. And yeah, thanks so much, Katie. An hour went so quick. That was just a great conversation.
Katie
I mean, it's so easy to chat for an hour when you're just, you know, BSing about fishing You know talking about all the ways you like to do it and where you like to go It's it's not hard to fill up time.
Brian
Oh For sure. Yeah, I've really had a good time connecting with you. So yeah, you're headed out fishing tomorrow, you said
Katie
Yep, last probably the last big fishing trip of the year. We're doing our final backpacking trip hurrah for my Fred hence back to Arkansas for the for the season. So Definitely looking forward to that. But also we got hunting starting next week. So this is just a great time of the year
Brian
How cool. Well, um, really fun to connect with you, Katie. And, uh, yeah, go have some fun with your buddy tomorrow fishing and in a good, good hunting in your upcoming season here as well. And, uh, yeah, let's keep in touch and do another one of these down the road.
Katie
For sure. And best of luck to you. I'm sure you've got a lot of adventures coming up yourself. So, uh, I wish you the best of luck on all those.
Brian
Yep. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Katie
All right. And that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks. And you can find me on social media under my name, Katie Burgert on Go Wild or @fishuntamed on Instagram. and I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone!
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