Ep 30: Trout Spey and What it Means to be an Angler, with Chad Williams
Chad Williams is a guide and manager of Total Outfitters, a fly shop and guide service in SW Montana. Total Outfitters works with anglers of all skill levels and has recently been focusing more on introducing trout spey to the areas they fish, particularly the Bitterroot River. In this episode, Chad walks me through trout spey, a technique I’m familiar with in theory but have never tried. We cover why someone would want to use trout spey tactics, different fly options and how to fish them, lines and leaders, how to move through the water, and much more. Near the end, we also discuss one of Chad’s favorite topics: what it means to be an angler. Outside the guiding world, Chad is a 7th grade Montana history teacher, wrestling coach, and avid fly tyer.
Website: www.total-outfitters.com
Email: info@total-outfitters.com
Instagram: @totaloutfitters
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right welcome to episode number 30 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I'm talking to Chad Williams and Chad is a guide and manager of Total Outfitters in southwestern Montana. So his home rivers are the Madison, Missouri, Bitterroot, Blackfoot, probably a lot of names people have heard before. And on this episode I got a chance to pick his brain about trout spey which is something I haven't gotten to do, but I'm pretty interested in giving it a try at some point. So it's great to hear how Chad uses it on his local rivers and how Total Outfitters is introducing it to a lot of their clients. So without further ado, here is my chat with Chad Williams. I usually just start by getting a little bit of background. So if you just want to start by telling me kind of how you got your start in the outdoors and then also your start at Total Outfitters.
Chad
So how I got my start into this world of fly fishing, I actually started really young. Dad was always, my father was always a bait fisherman. You know, he took me fishing all the time. And I guess it was one day on the bank of the Snoqualmie River, I must have been 11 maybe, 10 or 11, we were plunking for steelhead, which is basically a big massive weight holding your line down and then like a tag line a foot or two foot long with like a spinning glow and either sand shrimp or a glob of eggs. And he would sit there in his chair and read a book and usually fall asleep waiting for that little jingle bell that he would hang on the end of the rod. And you know it was fun when we would catch a fish but the time between fish sometimes was very long and I would get bored. So I took off on a little hike and there was a guy, probably half a mile downstream that I saw was swinging with a two-hander. And that was really captivating. I was just sitting there watching him and then entertaining myself trying to keep myself from getting bored because dad wasn't really doing anything other than reading and you know sleeping. And he hooked a fish and I was listening to his old reel just screaming and so I'm watching this guy fight this fish and this is back in like, oh man it must have been like 1981, '82 or something like that. And when he landed that fish and I was talking to him about it and he says, "Oh yeah, fly fishing is the only way to really respect these fish." Of course, I wanted to fly fish. So I pestered my dad and pestered my dad to get me a fly rod. And he didn't know anything about fly fishing. And he finally took me to Kmart and we bought a, I think it was like an eight foot, seven or eight weight Eagle Claw, you know, for less than a hundred bucks. And, and that was it for me, man. I was, I was everything I wanted to do was geared around fly fishing and tying flies. I started tying flies at home. Um, first with, you know, a pair of vice grips, literally duct tape to the table until I finally got my first Thompson a vice. And, and since then, that's all I've ever done. I mean, that's all I want to do. Everything centered around fly fishing. I mean, I hunt and I do all those other things, hiking. I like to get down behind legs, but usually a fly rod in the stable somewhere with me.
Katie
That's funny that you mentioned that vice setup because that's exactly how I tied my first fly too. It was like a pair of pliers that I, you know, like clamped down and then I don't remember how I fashioned it to the table, but it was some sort of pair of pliers attached to a table and I just tied the most hideous flies. When I was when I was little before I knew anything about fly fishing I just had seen some flies and I was like I've got feathers and hooks like I can I can make something like that.
Chad
Oh yeah, yeah. I used to hang out at the shops in the town I grew up in, in Bellevue in Seattle, Washington, and watching these old guys tie flies. And I'm like, I gotta do that. But I didn't know what to buy. I didn't have any money. I would go out, I would get some, my dad was a bait fisherman, he had all these, I don't know if you remember those snail, the bait holder hooks that have the little barbs on the shank?
Katie
Yeah, yeah.
Chad
That's all I had. And so I would crimp those down with a pair of pliers and then take some sewing thread and literally wind it. Didn't you're supposed to have a bobbin. I just know that you're supposed to wrap it. Didn't know where to buy a bobbin. Of course, this was all before the internet. And I'd get chicken feathers out of the barn and, you know, cut off pieces of hair off of my dog and stuff like that. They were horrendous. But I finally, I met a lady and she actually gave me my first fly tying lesson and I tied a, let's see, I tied a renegade, a woolly worm, and a mosquito. Those are the first three flies I tied and man I just hours and hours cranking those out until I got one that looked like the ones you could see in the shop
Katie
That's probably the best way to start though Just like pick pick one or two patterns and just go for it and I still hear that now, you know If you're getting started just find one fly until you can tie it So every fly looks the same and then move on to a pattern number two But it's so tempting to be like well, you know, I kind of got that one, right? But then there's this other pattern I want to try
Chad
and I still have that problem I've tied, I've been tying for, you know, most of my life. And even today I'm sitting here, I was, I'm tying flies for the shop because it's actually faster for me to tie them than wait for them to be shipped to me. So I was tying purple hazes today and I'm like, I kind of want to do a different kind of purple haze. So I'm sitting there kind of tweaking it out. And I realized I've only had, you know, only tied like six flies in an hour because I'm still tweaking it.
Katie
Right.
Chad
Oh, come on, Chad, you got to put some flies in the box. Let's uh, let's get busy here. Let's go to work.
Katie
Yeah, it's hard to keep your mind from like wandering. You know, I could try this. I could, I could edit it this way. I could try this other pattern. It's kind of similar. It's, it's hard to stay focused.
Chad
Yeah. I, one of the things I like to do with tying is I like to find a pattern, whether it's from a buddy's box or, you know, something that I see commercially tied. And then I like to reinvent it, maybe put my own little flair on it, you know, change the pattern, add CDC or, you know, Oversize the hackler like blending, dubbing I really get into my dubbing blends and getting you know experimenting with that so that's always fun and that's what's cool about fly tying you can it's a artistic outlet I guess especially for me because I can't even draw stick figure men.
Katie
Right it's kind of the arts and crafts of the outdoor world.
Chad
Yeah.
Katie
And I don't do a ton of fly tying I'm not very experienced but I feel like like what you said where you just kind of take a pattern and tweak it a little bit I feel like that's got to be how you know so many of the patterns out there were invented. There were some patterns and then people just started adding their own flair or changing one thing here or there. I feel like that's got to be how a lot of the patterns today have evolved.
Chad
Yeah, that and then necessity is the mother of invention. You need a specific pattern for a specific water. A lot of the patterns in my box, especially the ones that I take with me when I'm actually guiding are patterns that I know will work on this section of the river or in this system. You know, and that's one of the unique things about when people, when my clients fish with me, they're fishing with my bugs. That's kind of a way that I enjoy it because I know that those fish that are being caught are being caught on bugs that I've tied myself. And so I get a lot of, a lot of enjoyment out of that, a lot of satisfaction out of that.
Katie
What, where are you getting your ideas? Like, are you picking up rocks and just seeing what's under there and trying to mimic it? or you grab bugs out of the air?
Chad
I'm looking for bugs all the time. I'm shaking the trees, I'm grabbing them. I keep a little tub in my fly box, in my boat bag, and I'll put flies in there and then take them home at night, or I'll take really close up pictures with them with my phone and just try to figure out a way to mimic it. Yeah, that's really fun. That's a lot of fun.
Katie
What kinds of specific tweaks are you making to your flies? So if you look at a bug under a rock, let's say, and you're comparing-- let's just say a mayfly, and you're comparing it to something like a pheasant tail, like a generic mayfly pattern, what kind of tweaks might you be adding? Color? Shape? What are you adding to your flies?
Chad
Well, it all depends. If I see a bug on the water, first thing I'm looking at, it's just the general size and color. And the patterns that are out there, your parachute atoms is going to cover a lot of the different mayfly patterns out there. You just got to either increase the size or decrease the size. What I like to do is I like to get my dubbing blend, which is just a coffee grinder. And then I take different dubbings and I try to get the color pretty close. And so that's the way I'll tweak it. And then I like to make them buggy. I add CDC. I love to tie soft hackles. So I'll do a tandem rig a lot of times with a dry and a soft hackle behind it. And those are the ways I kind of tweak it. And then just coming up with, you really don't have to over complicate it. You don't need to, a lot of my bugs, when you look at them, it's like, oh, wow. Well, the bugs in my boat bag are there are designed to catch fish. The ones I put in a box out in the shop, those are designed to catch fishermen.
Katie
I've heard that before. I've definitely been the victim of it too. And I've been talking about this with my buddies lately You know, I love having a full fly box. I love going into the shop and just buying, you know One or two of everything and then I find myself using the same like five patterns every single time I go out and most of Those flies never get touched I just like you know the feeling of having them in my box and feeling like I'm prepared but then it's like well I'm still probably gonna use a parachute Adams as my first fly like 50% of the time I go out on a lake, you know
Chad
yeah First gotta have confidence in the bug if you don't have confidence in the bug, you're not gonna fish it well, you're gonna doubt it. And the key to catching fish on a fly really is, yeah, you got to be close to what the fish are eating, but presentation. Putting it where the fish are gonna be in a manner and in a way that they're gonna eat it.
Katie
Yeah, one single split shot has made the difference between getting skunked and catching a ton of fish, like on multiple occasions.
Chad
Absolutely, yeah, like with my beads, you know, if I have to put a split shot on, I will, but what I'll do with like a lot of my nymphs is increase the sizes of the bead, go from brass to tungsten to a bigger size tungsten. Especially on like the euronymphs nowadays with the tungsten beads, just the same size of fly, but maybe a bigger bead on it. Get it down there where the fish are.
Katie
Yeah, when I can, I like to use a bead just to keep the line from like hinging around that split shot. I feel like the more streamlined you can have your leader, the better.
Chad
Absolutely.
Katie
So I know that's been kind of a movement with the whole Euro nymphing craze now. Get those really heavy flies so you can avoid adding weight to your line. But I still end up adding weight most of the time to my line. It's just easier for me.
Chad
Drop shot it. Put that lead on the bottom and get those flies above it. That way you don't have that hinge.
Katie
Yeah, I have tried that once or twice. It's not my go-to, but I've heard a lot of people swear by it.
Chad
It can definitely be really effective. I don't like doing it. I'd rather put a heavy point fly down there on the bottom. big pat stone rubber leg or something like that, and then a tag fly above that. And at least for these waters around here in the Bitterroot, it's been highly effective.
Katie
So you'll put, you'll put the heavier fly, the heavier point fly at the bottom and then some lighter flies up above instead of doing heavy fly and then tying to the bend of the hat? Yeah, for sure.
Chad
Unless I'm fishing under a bobber. I mean, if I'm tight line nipping, I will. Um, if I'm fishing under an indicator, you know, it all depends. I'll, I'll vary it up. I'll vary it up. But I generally, especially under an indicator, if I've got clients in the boat, I'll put an indicator on and yeah, I might put the heavy fly and then off the bend of the hook, the lighter fly. Just depends on the situation I'm in. That's the other thing too, is man, depending on what the river, you gotta conform to what the river demands, you know? And so having the ability to read the water, to read the client's ability or your own personal abilities is gonna dictate what kind of setup you have situation and don't be afraid to change it a lot of people get in trouble They don't want to change it out and they stick with one thing all day long and they get skunk or they don't catch as Many fishes they'd like to sit down look at the water read the water Understand what's going on and then you know Adjust your tactics of you know, so what's what the water demands for sure?
Katie
Speaking of tactics I know one of the things you wanted to cover today was how the bitterroot River in your area differs from Some of the other rivers in in the area Especially with like the dry fly fishing what uh what tactics are usually using on like in your specific area and particularly on the Bitterroot
Chad
Well dry fly fishing on the Bitterroot is absolutely amazing. I mean you can get away with fishing bigger bugs and The trout eat them. I mean they do you can you know, depending on which section of the river you're in the the trout are just It's funny to me how eager they will respond to a properly presented dry fly. You know, we fish size 10, 12, and 14s, and the mayflies pretty commonly, and then your stoneflies, you know, 10, 8, and 6. And pretty generic ones. And if they're not eating those, put on some kind of an attractor with a dropper underneath it, and you're going to have a good day as long as you can put that fly where it belongs. You know, if you're drifting in a boat, get it down and in front. Get it out in front of the boat. Even right down the middle, a lot of times they're going to take it. If they don't take the dry, they'll take the dropper. But yeah, it's an outstanding dry fly fishery.
Katie
Now, what causes that? Why the difference between the Bitterroot and let's say the Madison or some of the other well-known rivers in the area?
Chad
Well, to compare our river, it's hard to I don't necessarily like to compare rivers. Each river is unique and special in its own way. What I like about the Bitterroot is it's you know it's a very popular river but we don't get the press that you see the Madison or the Missouri or the Yellowstone get which is fine by me you know but we still we still get a lot of traffic there there's a there's a fair amount of pressure on our river but given that we still have pretty successful days you know really successful days on the water
Katie
And you said that total outfitters is kind of trying to bring trout spey to the area?
Chad
Yeah
Katie
When you say that, how are you bringing it to the area? Are you just kind of the first people to start using it a lot?
Chad
We're definitely not the first people to trout fade, but it's not very popular here yet. I love swinging soft tackles. I love fishing with a two-hander. I grew up fishing for steelhead with a two-hander. A buddy of mine, Tim Parks, and I, we just, about three, four years ago, we started fishing for these trout with with spey rods. And of course, it's really popular over on the Missouri River in the Madison and the Yellowstone, but especially on the Missouri and we're like, let's do this at home. I think it'll work especially the middle and lower Bitterroot and the Clark Fork. There's, there's really interesting water. And so you know, four years ago, five years ago, we started swinging for them in earnest and figuring this out. And I'll tell you what the Bitterroot River swings. I mean, it's it's got some very, very interesting water and we've had a lot of success. So we started offering trips for them. And so we're going to kind of move on this. I think it's going to be I think it's going to be fun. And it just gives you another opportunity to become a more refined and well-rounded angler, really.
Katie
So walk me through trout spey. I know in theory what it is, but I have never used a two-handed rod. And I've done a little bit of swinging, but not really with wet flies, usually with streamers. So walk me through, if you had to describe to someone who's never even heard of trout spey, what makes it different from using a single-handed rod and doing your typical overhand cast?
Chad
So yeah, you're not doing your overhand false casting. You're creating an anchor point on the water with either a Scandi or a Skagit-style fly line or head. And with that anchor point, you're able to shoot the line across the water and you can cover a lot of water. And what's unique about spey is you're usually on a tight line. And so when you get that take, it's electrifying. It's like a jolt. It's like, whoa, I mean, that was definitely a fish, you know, and you're swinging it through the current, whether you're skating a dry fly, you're in the middle column, or you've got a heavy mo tip on and you're getting the fly down deeper. So, and what's cool and unique about trout spey or spey in general, not just trout spey, but whether you're swinging for steelhead or for salmon or even for trout, it's methodical, it's deliberate. You're casting a lot. You know, you're casting and you're swinging and you're taking another step and you're really covering the water thoroughly. And it's very, I don't know, it's relaxing. You're working on your cast and it's almost like when you finally do get a hit, It's like an interruption. You know, you've been doing your cast, whether it's a snap tee or a double spade, and that thing's swinging through the water, you might be putting a mend in it, you might be doing a wet or a grease line technique, and then all of a sudden you get jolted awake and your repetition is interrupted with this trout. You never know when you're gonna catch a fish. When you kind of have an idea, you're coming into a bucket, and it's like, oh man, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen now. and oh it's so satisfying when it does happen. And it's just really, it's another way to angle for these fish that we love.
Katie
Yeah, and that feeling is, that's definitely not unique to trout spey 'cause I know exactly what you're saying when you see a run and you're kind of like, even if it's a dry dropper, let's say that you're using, and you land it right where you wanted to, and you're like, if there's a fish in there, I'm gonna catch it on this cast. Like there's no escape. If it's in there, it's gonna eat. If it's not, I can move on. And there's just that really tense moment where it's passing over the spot that you want. So I'm sure that's very similar in trout spey when you're swinging through just a perfect run. What kind of water are you looking for when you're deciding whether you want to use this technique?
Chad
Typically, you're looking for a run where you can riffles and stuff like that, and kind of a long stretch of water. And that's the traditional method for trout spey. What makes the bitterroot so interesting is that there's all kinds of water that we can fish on. We've got some beautiful long runs where you can spend an hour stepping through the run and people that know trout spey will know what I'm talking about. You've got this nice long run you can step through. But when you go up on the upper Bitterroot, there's a lot of point and shoot type angling where there's fishing inside seams and fishing some structure and around boulders. So it's the diversity, the diversity there. And these fish are really responsive to it, really responsive to a swung fly.
Katie
Expand a little bit on the stepping, because I feel like that's something that might not be obvious to somebody who's never swung a fly and is kind of moving downstream with it. Most people are just going to be working upstream as they go, and they're going to be casting usually maybe like a quartering upstream direction.
Chad
So with trout, with any kind of spey technique, you're either-- you're making your cast 90 degrees across the water. but generally it's downstream and you're swinging the water. So like swinging, even with the one-hander when you're skating caddis or you're swinging a soft tackle, it's the same thing with the two-hander. You're swinging that fly through the run. And so the step is basically you're covering that water. Once you've covered that water with your fly or your cast, then you take a couple more steps downstream and you make the cast again. So that by the time you're done stepping through a run, you've covered that entire river. And then, you know, you might've started with a floating line, you know, and you're skating a dry fly, then you change your tip and you get a little bit lower in the water column and you go back through it again, you can spend an entire day on a nice run and cover it thoroughly from top to bottom and from bank to bank.
Katie
That's one of the big draws to me when I first learned what, what trout spey, well, I guess spey in general was, um, that it was really easy to see visually, I think I had seen it on a PowerPoint or something, that when you're just typical singlehand fishing, you're kind of just picking a spot, casting to it, and you'll get a straight line downstream from that point, and that's the area of water you've covered. And then if you cast kind of to the same spot, you're going to get another very similar straight line, and that's the only area of the river you've covered. And the best you can hope for is casting farther or closer and hoping to get enough straight lines that you've kind of covered the water. if you're casting straight out and then swinging down in an arc, it's covering the entire river from wherever you cast the whole way back to your shore in an arc. And then when you step down, it just gives you, you know, let's say two feet downstream.
Chad
That's right. You're picking another section of the water to cover. And you know what? I've had them, I've had trout, I've had steelhead take it, you know, within moments, within seconds of the cast, middle of the stream. And then when it gets right to the end of the swing, don't let it dangle a little bit. And the other thing too with trout spade, I might swing it through and just let it swing. But then I might twitch it, I might strip it, especially with trout, like if I'm fishing with streamers in the fall, I'll get more aggressive with it. I'll jig it, I'll strip it a little bit and give it some action, throw some upstream mends into it. And so you can really change it up. And that's the cool thing about it is if it didn't work one way, try something else, you know, until you figure out what they're doing. And then it's like, Oh, holy smokes, I just got bit there. What did I do? Analyze that and then you're learning about it. That's what's really cool about angling and anglers is they're always wanting to learn more. You know, you spend a lifetime fishing, and you think you're out there to catch fish, but it's more than that. It's cerebral, you know, and I really love that about swinging a two standard rod is you've got time to think and process and just immerse yourself in the environment with the fish and everything else. You get to know them on a different level, you know, whether you're nymphing or dry fly fishing or you're casting a gyro rod and now trout spade. It's just something really enjoyable. It's hard to put into words, really.
Katie
It's just satisfying to, like you said earlier, be a well-rounded angler. techniques I very rarely use, but I like knowing them. Even just the feeling of knowing that I have that knowledge there if I want it. There's so many techniques that I've never tried or I've only tried a couple times. It almost feels like a missing piece that I'm going to need to fill in at some point. I'm going to need to experience it just so I know what that piece is, what it's like, and what knowledge I'm missing out on.
Chad
Yeah, and you know, I've been doing this my whole life and I still don't, I know a lot about very little and a little about a whole lot. I know a little about a lot of different kinds of ways to fish and I just like being well, if there's a new technique or style of fishing, I'm gonna be the guy that's gonna try it, you know, I've got to figure it out and enjoy it at all, enjoy all of it because I just love going out and trying new things and trying new water. And when Tim and I started looking at the bitterroot from the point of view of swinging it, you know, we didn't see, I, man, I can't, I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen anybody out there with a two-handed rod other than myself and just a couple other guys that I swing with. I just haven't seen it. So I'm like, let's try it. And man, we were happily surprised. It's turned into quite the blessing.
Katie
What dictates what fly you start with when you're swinging? 'Cause I picture, you know, the typical dry or nymph dry dropper setup, you're probably just trying to match the hatch or trying to match some insects you found in the water, and then you're going to dead drift them. So when you're swinging, what's dictating what you're going to throw on and how you're going to adapt that throughout the day?
Chad
You're still matching the hatch. Okay. You're still matching the hatch. So let's start in the spring, and the Bitterroot River is world famous for its squallah hatch, right? stone fly that comes out intermittently depending on the weather and water temperatures and air temperatures and things like that. And most people fish for them either with a, you know, a nymph under an indicator or a dry dropper or the dry. And when the squall hatch is coming off and the fish are heated on them, there's nothing like it watching them come up and eat that big stone fly. And I've been doing that for years and years and years. And I thought to myself, okay, well, those nymphs are crawling. They're not very good swimmers. I wonder if we could catch them on the swing. And so we just tied some some typical squall and nymphs, but I put like a soft tackle on them and I was swinging them through the water. And I'll be danged if they didn't take that swung nymph, you know, in the middle of a hatch. And so maybe they're not keying in on the dry fly, but they're still eating that nymph and swinging that nymph and putting maybe a soft tackle collar on it. This is goes back to tying flies modify that fly a little bit. And, and man, we had a lot of a lot of luck swinging for them. And then you know, in the springtime too, so types of flies, you know, small streamers, small buggers, thin mints, semi seals, you know, those are the specific type of flies that I'll use. And I'll just fish them in the water column with an erratic style, kind of mimicking the squall and nymph because it's not a good swimmer. You know, they like to crawl out on the rocks. And when and they do get swept away in the current, they're going to twitch around. So I'll do little one to two inch twitches with my line as it's swinging through, mimicking a bug that's been caught in the current trying to get out. And it depends on how fast or slow the water is and where you're at in the column. But I was surprised at how effective it was.
Katie
So you're basing how you swing on what kind of fly you have on. So for something like a streamer that might be a baitfish, you might give that more of an actual strip because that baitfish could actually swim. Whereas if you've got a bug that might just be twitching, you'll just give it one or two inch twitches. And then if it's something that would just get swept away, you might just let that naturally swing with the current and let it go.
Chad
Absolutely, yeah, exactly.
Katie
Okay, that makes sense.
Chad
Yeah, so depending on the kind of water you're in, the bug you're fishing and what the fish are doing. So if you see fish actively feeding on the surface, and I do this with my clients, if they're not eating your dry fly that you're presenting, A lot of times I'll put a soft tackle as kind of a tandem rig. And they'll eat that soft tackle when they weren't eating the dry fly. And I usually do that. I'll go soft tackle before I put a nymph, like a dry dropper. I usually go dry soft tackle and then go dry dropper.
Katie
So you'll swing the dry flies as well?
Chad
You can. You can skate them. Like the October caddish, you can definitely swing dry flies and skate them across the surface. And that's really cool because you get to see them come up on the top and eat it on top. So that's like the October caddis in the fall. Yeah, I'll swing those dry flies for sure.
Katie
And how do you keep them from just flooding themselves and going under in the current? How are you keeping them buoyant and on the surface?
Chad
The tension of the water and the line usually keeps it right up on top. So you're gonna use a floating line and a leader that won't sink. So a dry, a floating leader. And when you get into Trout Spade, you look at the different kinds of leaders and tippets out there, oh my gosh, it can blow your mind. I mean, and it's still, it's confusing for me. Sometimes still when you think about the different weights and grains of heads and floating lines and most things, oh my goodness, you can get a PhD just figuring that stuff out. Yeah, in fact, you probably should get a PhD to figure it out.
Katie
So give me the 101 on the line and leader because the line is one of the, I don't wanna say it's a barrier, But it's one of those things that seems a little overwhelming at first, because I think you can kind of explain pretty easily, you know, people swing flies with single-handed rods too, but that line difference is, you know, that's a big difference between your typical weight line, like a 5-weight line, 6-weight line, and going to grains, even though you can measure a weight line in grains, you're not usually referring to them in grains, you're usually referring to them in a weight. So explain the 101 version of the spey lines.
Chad
So, you want to match the line to the rod and then you're going to choose between either a Skagit or a Scandi. And like a Skagit, you know... and I'll be honest with you, I mean I'm not an expert by any means on this but it depends on what you're wanting to do. Like a Skagit, I'll use a Skagit head if I'm casting heavier flies and I need to really shoot that sucker out there far. If I'm swinging soft tackles, I'll switch to a Scandi because it's not as heavy a fly. And I can get that nice tight loop shooting it across the river. So depending on the fly you're fishing and the water you're fishing, you know, once again, we're not false casting. You know, you're using a snap tee, a double spade, a single spade. You're getting an anchor point, that D loop to send that out. And so that will dictate what fly you're using. But really, you know, it's just about swinging that fly through the water. You can get away with a lot. It's learning the cast. And it's not something that you're going to take a ranked beginner with and go out and say, okay, we're going to do this. This is developmental. And it's going to take a while to figure it out. But once you've done it, oh, my gosh, it's addicting. It's addicting. I'm getting ready to go to Washington to swing for some steelhead here in about, oh, eight or nine days. August 20, August 18th, so next week.
Katie
Coming up.
Chad
And all I can think about right now is just getting out there and stepping through a run and hoping for a tug, hoping for a bite, you know?
Katie
Yep. So go even more 101, and can you just explain the difference between a Skagit and a Scandi?
Chad
So a Skagit's going to have a shorter head. It’s going to have a lot more aggressive taper on it in a shorter head. So it's really compact. A Scandi is going to be a lot longer and it's going to have a taper that kind of, you know, skinny at the front where the leader is at, it'll get fatter and then it'll taper back down. So it's made for different ways of presenting the fly in relation to the water. A Skagit is going to be, the taper is going to be a lot more pronounced towards the front where the leader is. And you can get a really powerful cast and just send that sucker a lot farther. So if I've got a cone head or a heavier streamer, I generally go to a Skagit, because I can really send that sucker out there. If I've got lighter flies, like a small pheasant tail soft tackle, then I'm going to switch to my Scandi line.
Katie
OK, and what would be the downside of using that kind of burlier line that you'd normally use for a streamer to get it way out there? What would be the downside to using that with something like a smaller fly that doesn't really need it, but is it gonna hamper you or like hinder your casting?
Chad
Yeah, it could. It definitely could. I mean, and this is where it gets super technical and then we could spend hours and hours and hours talking about that, but you definitely wanna match the line to the rod and then the line to the conditions and the style of fly that you're gonna be fishing. So if you're fishing big intruder patterns, you know, big, heavy flies, you're gonna need it a lot more robust or stout, heavier line to get it out there.
Katie
And how about leaders? Is that gonna be pretty similar to what you'd use for any given fly on a single-handed rod or is the leader set up a little different as well?
Chad
So the leader's gonna change depending on like the depth that you want to fish. So like the Scandi line or the Skagit line, they're gonna float and then you're gonna attach your tip to that. And the tip can be a floating tip to like a hovering tip that's gonna be just maybe a couple of inches below the surface to faster sink rates. It might sink one foot per second, two foot, you know, a real fast sink, extra fast sink to then your real big heavy mows to where you can take a fly that's not weighted but get it down there at the depth you want based on the type of tip or leader that you put on. And then off that tip, then you put your leader, you know, four or five feet of whatever it is you're using, whether it's, you know, 5X for like the really small soft tackles all the way up to your 20, 30 pound test, you know, running Maxima Chameleon or something like that for steelhead and salmon.
Katie
Okay. So not too far off of how you'd normally pick a leader, but okay. And what about rod weights? Because that was something that I remember was a little confusing to me that I remember hearing that a standard trout spey rod weight might be something like a three-weight, even though a three-weight would not be used for big trout.
Chad
So for trout spey, Echo makes a great trout spey in three and four-weight. So I like the three and four-weights in trout spey. And then the bigger the fish, the bigger the rod you're going to need. On 11, 12-footers, your rods are usually longer. So three and four weight rods are great for trout spey. Yeah. Kind of, I'm just, my mind's just going through all the different rods I have and what I have for, it really depends. Like once again, looking at the river you're going to, the species you're after, and the types of flies that you're gonna use will dictate the arsenal. So I have a quiver of rods that I use. But for like here on the Bitterroot River, You know, a trout spey and a three or four weight, you know, 11, 12 footer is going to be what you're going to put in your arsehole for the local waters here.
Katie
So generally, it's going to be a little bit smaller weight than what you'd use for a single-handed rod.
Chad
Yeah.
Katie
Maybe like-- would five to three weight be a rough conversion of fish that you'd normally use a five-weight rod, single-handed would translate? Is there any sort of comparison like that?
Chad
Yeah, I guess. Because I mean, the trout speys, you can get down to ultralight trout spey rods. Because you don't want a big 12 weight on the bitterroot that you would use for king salmon or something like that. I mean, yeah, you could cast on it, but you want to feel that fish too. So yeah, you're going to come down to a lot lighter rods for trout spey, for sure.
Katie
Now this might be kind of a novice question, but when people refer to trout spey, is there anything different from regular spey apart from the fact that you're fishing for trout with gear that's generally weighted for trout? Or is there any noticeable difference apart from the type of flies you're using and the type of rod you're matching to that?
Chad
I think the techniques, the casting techniques are the same. Okay. Yeah, you're just, instead of doing it for Atlantic salmon or regular salmon or steelhead, you're just using this technique that was made popular in Scotland and things that they were using out on the Pacific coast for steelhead. Now we're doing that, but we're targeting trout. And so everything's kind of modified down to this specific animal, rainbow trout, cutthroat and brown trout.
Katie
Yeah, 'cause I always hear people say trout spey, but a lot of the time those people are saying it in a context where I'm like, well, obviously you're fishing for trout. If you're here in Colorado and you're spey casting, you're obviously not doing it for steelhead. So I would assume it's trout, but people still put that trout in front of the word spey just to, yeah, I wasn't sure if there was any other, any other differences or why they're specifying trout.
Chad
No, like I said, it's specific. You know, like I said, going back to the way I do it here is when I walk, when I step through a run, I usually just let it swing at first on the surface, and then I start changing it up as I change the fly to where I'll put some twitches into it, where I'll do a strip with it or something like that. And it's a little, I guess maybe trout spade, the difference would be it's more diverse. You can do a lot more, you know, at least I do, I change it up. I get pretty aggressive in figuring out what I need to do to catch these fish. And I get a lot more dynamic and change my whole approach to the river. Whereas like when I go over to the Clearwater in Idaho for steelhead, you know, it's, it's pretty consistent all the way through the run. I'm going to do the same thing all the way through the run.
Katie
Okay. And I assume because you're, you're showing up with a, you know, very specific setup, specific rods, specific line, things like that, that you need to decide before you get there that you're going to be spey fishing, spey casting. Like you're not, it's not like when you get there and you're like, Oh, I was going to fish dries, but it doesn't look like the rising, so I'm going to, I'm gonna rig up a nymph rig like you need to come in kind of with that that plan it's not something you decide on the fly.
Chad
When I really got into spey fishing so back when I was a lot younger I mean it was about catching the fish that's what we all want to do we want to catch fish and when I started learning how to spey you know I'd bring my spey rod with me but I always grab my nymph rod just in case because I wanted to catch a fish you know that was the goal at the end of the day was to catch a fish and when I was younger and less patient, you know, I'd start out with trout spey or I'd start out with the spey and I'd swing through a run and nothing would happen and I'd get frustrated and I'm like dang it I want to catch fish and I'd go back and I'd bobber up and and I'd nymph the run and I'd catch a steelhead or whatever it was that I was after and you know my mentors were telling me if you want to catch a fish on the spey leave everything else at home. And that was a tough day when I did that I'm like okay I'm not gonna touch a nymph rod this year. You know So this fall, it's just going to be nothing but trout spey, and I'm going to learn how to do this consistently. And then all of a sudden, your fishing becomes angling, and it's not necessarily about catching the fish, rather than it is immersing yourself in this nuanced way of approaching nature. And yeah, you can go an entire season and only maybe touch one or two fish and call it successful. Last time, we had a poor run on the Clearwater last year, but the year before that, I mean and I didn't get out as much as I would have liked, but I went three days and touched four fish and had one positive hookup. But that four days, I didn't put one fish to hand. I didn't land a fish. But I came away so relaxed and so fulfilled and anxious to get back out there and do it again. Because you never know that. I think that's a cool thing about it. You never know when you're gonna catch a fish and when it does happen, it's like it's an interruption to what you were doing and it's startling and it's so thrilling. And the same thing, I was over on the mow last fall and I'd been swinging the whole day and nothing, nothing, nothing. And then I thought about it. I'm like, man, I could just put the nymph rig on and I know I'm gonna catch some fish. I says, nope, I'm gonna leave the nymph rods in the truck. I walked up these railroad tracks. I stepped into this run that I had floated over earlier in the day, and this was right before dark. And I'm swinging through the run, swinging through the run. And I was actually looking across the way at this house. It was like way up on the side of the hill. And I make my cast. And then I kept looking at that house and how cool it would be to live on that house. And all of a sudden I got bit, had this fruit roll up on. And all of a sudden I got bit and it just completely startled me. It's like, almost scared me. I'm like, holy smokes, that was a fish. You know, and I, I fought it, brought it in. I was looking at it and I was like, that was pretty cool. And what did I do that last time? And I've stepped through the run again. I caught another one and Holy smokes. I landed four in a row in about 45 minutes. And that was just like the best part of the whole trip. Didn't catch very many fish could have caught a lot more if I had to stayed on the Nymph rig all day. But those four fish that day were probably the most exciting fish of the whole season.
Katie
Now, do you know what you changed or like did you did you make a connection between I I changed something on this cast and now I can do that for the following cast?
Chad
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was a little it was it, you know, I can't remember what it was specifically that day. Probably a little twitch or maybe it was a downstream men to give it a more aggressive swim. Maybe it was maybe it's an upstream men that makes it drift not so aggressively. You know, what kind of tip did I have on, you know, what was the size of the fly? all those things come into bear and you just think about it and you analyze it. And so like right now in anticipation of this trip that's coming up in a week I'm just thinking okay when was the last time I was on this water? What heads were I using? What flies do I need to tie? So you come way over prepared. You almost it's like you over complicate it but then when you get out there it's super simple. You don't bring a lot of stuff when you're swinging for fish. I mean a couple different liters, a spool of of tippet and a handful of flies and that's it. and your flask of whiskey to toast the fish when you do.
Katie
Of course. You know, I know what you mean that sometimes it's you're almost panicking, thinking back, what what did I do on that one? Because you kind of stop paying attention. If you if you're kind of losing hope, you feel like you're not catching anything, you might not catch anything. You start to your mind starts to drift and then you do hook something and suddenly you're you're panicking, thinking back, like, what did I do? I had a moment about a week ago on just a a pond, I was just catching bass and bluegill and they just weren't cooperating. And then I was just dragging my dry fly back in and it was kind of, you know, maybe an inch below the surface and suddenly I got a hit. And I was like, "Oh." So I, you know, I just started dragging my dry fly an inch into the surface and I was catching fish every single cast. And it's just, it's one of those things where you're like, I can't believe that making a small change before I'd been throwing a nymph and stripping it back in, but now that I've got my dry fly that's sitting right below the surface, this is what they want.
Chad
Yeah, it's like light bulb.
Katie
Right.
Chad
Yeah, you just had that aha. I tell my students in class, you just had that aha moment. You can see it when the kids are learning. It's like all of a sudden the light bulb comes on. It's like, "Oh, wow, I actually got through to them." Same thing, man. Fish are the best teachers. They can teach you so much. If you're observant, you pay attention. That's what's cool about all kinds of fishing. It doesn't have to be trout spamming or any kind of, it's just the whole aspect of becoming an angler. You know, when we can spend our whole lives and we looking for fish and we realize that fishing is more than just catching. It's learning about who you are and your relationship to this world. What I love about fishing is you can put the politics aside. You can put the troubles of the world aside and just go on it. And I think, man, if everybody were to take up fly fishing in the world, I think it would lead to world peace and we wouldn't have all the hangups that we have. Let's get people out there fishing. Maybe even not just fly fishing, just fishing in general, because nature has a way of healing itself and healing the people there. You know, and I enjoy that about my job and this career is you make relationships with people from diverse backgrounds. It's really awesome.
Katie
I've heard that from a lot of people that they use fly fishing to kind of escape whatever stress they've got going on, be it work or home stuff, because when you're fishing, especially when you're, like what we're talking about, where you're kind of forcing yourself into a new technique that requires all your attention, and even just, even if you're using a technique that you've used a thousand times, you still have to put 100% of your focus on what you're doing. And it's really hard to be worrying about, you know, that bill you have to go home and pay if you're, you know, focusing on learning a new technique and thinking, you know, "What is this fish doing? What does it want? What do I need to do to get it to want my fly?" You can't really think about multiple things when that's going through your head.
Chad
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a way to find some tranquility in a chaotic world. And life, you know, our society is so busy now with so much information. We have an information overload. I mean, kids are into their devices and everything else. But you know, one of the things I do in my classes, and I'm really fortunate to teach where I do, my classroom literally is 15 minutes from the river. I will take my class down to the river. And sometimes I'll put on a casting demonstration or hook a fish. And those kids, the classroom management is really cool because that moving water and the environment, I mean, I'm fortunate to have that. I know that I'm very blessed to be able to teach here in Western Montana and really have the river 15 minutes from my class. But if we could get people aware of the natural beauty of our environment, it's really healing. It's really healing. So if you get an opportunity to go fishing, man, or just to get out into nature in any capacity, even if it's a park, take advantage of that. Cause it's gonna, it's gonna heal your soul for sure.
Katie
Being around, uh, kids, what grade do you teach?
Chad
I teach seventh grade Montana history. Yep.
Katie
So being around, you know, younger people, uh, maybe not, you know, super young children, but younger people in general, especially that age is probably, you know, on their devices a lot. Do you think it's harder today to convince kids to want to go out and explore these things, especially as so many people are now growing up in cities where it might not feel as accessible to get outside and take up something like fishing or hunting or hiking or any of these things?
Chad
Well, I sure hope not. I sure hope not. With the information age that's out there, it's more available to see it. I mean, all you got to do is YouTube fly fishing. You can find thousands and thousands of videos. As to the question of whether or not it's more difficult or not, I guess that's, you know, based on your geography, really. You know, I know that inner city kids and urban kids aren't going to have the same opportunities as those kids that are in more rural areas. But like in my classrooms, you know, even though we're in a very rural area, they're still on their devices. And so I've taken my passion for the outdoors and for fly fishing and kind of incorporated into my classroom. So like when the kids are taking a test, I'll pull out my vice and set it on my desk and I'll just start tying a fly. And these kids are like, what's Mr. Williams doing? And I says, well, hurry up and finish your test. And then when everybody's done with their test, if there's time at the end of class, we'll crank out a pattern. And I put my document camera up there and I display it on the screen and we're sitting there, we're tying flies and the kids are absolutely fascinated by it. So I introduced them to that in the classroom you what the next thing you know these kids are wanting to go fishing, they're wanting to learn how to tie flies, they're asking me questions and all of a sudden now there's an avenue for them to to go away from that and it was funny when we when we had to shut down last spring and do the whole online learning you know I asked my principal I said hey can I do some virtual field trips so I took a camera and I went out on the river and and I sat there on the banks of the river and taught these lessons and I'll tell you what those kids were so engaged because of the surroundings I had. We got to get our kids outside. Absolutely. Got to get the kids outside and enjoy nature.
Katie
Yeah I think maybe the answer is instead of trying to convince people that they need to go outside, you know, kind of just, I don't want to say force them into it in a negative way, but just put it in front of them. Because like you said, you pull out your vice and everyone wants to know what you're doing. And I heard someone mention once that, you know, you've got a room full of kids and you can have as toys in the room as you want, but if you bring a puppy in, all the kids want to play with the puppy. Like it does not matter what they're doing, they want to play with that puppy. And it's, you know, I feel like that's kind of the case with anything like this, where if you put something in front of them that is more engaging than whatever they want to do, you know, play on their phone or whatever, that's the way to get them, you know, involved versus just saying, "Hey, you need to go outside."
Chad
You know, that's not appealing. Take some time and invest in these kids, you know, and Kids are naturally curious. They want to know and when you do something that's interesting or unique, they're gonna perk up and they're gonna look and they're gonna watch. You know and I've been tying flies in front of my kids for 10 years now and whenever I bring that vice out, oh man! They just, they focus in, they get their work done and there's a reward and I put them on the vice and let them tie some bugs and they want to see YouTube channels and YouTube videos and all that. I go, "Well, go make your own YouTube channel and crank one out." My nephew actually ties flies for me, for my shop, you know, and his nickname's Buddha. And we've got this little corner called Buddha's Bugs. And so Aiden ties flies for the shop. And he's 14 years old. And he got interested in this by watching people tie flies and fly fish. And so, you know, there's another one he's done for you know the rest of his life but he doesn't spend a whole lot of time on his phone other than texting me and sending me videos hey how does this pattern look how does that look and he's always pestering his dad my brother hey we take me fishing we take me fishing we take me fishing you know that's a that's a great I mean I'm like there we go that kids gonna turn out
Katie
you know that's something that my boyfriend and I have talked about before and he always brings up because he you know he does a lot of things outside side with me but he grew up kind of a computer kid you know he loved computers but he always stressed that he what he valued about that was that he was always doing something creative you know he was playing on Photoshop or something and there's a difference between are you just scrolling through social media or are you watching videos or reading articles about something that interests you like there's two different ways to use technology and one One is just mindless and doesn't really serve any purpose while the other, if it's used correctly can spark new interests or unleash creativity or anything like that.
Chad
Yeah, YouTube can be a cool thing. I use it all the time when I'm looking for a different way to tie a pattern or a bug or a blend or, you know, oh yeah, absolutely. Technology is an incredible blessing for knowledge but sometimes it can be, like you said, just redundant and mindless and useless. You know, I would love to get the kids outside more often. I wanna see kids with scuffed up elbows and knees, you know, and splinters in their fingers, you know, and they come home and they've got this cool story, you know, and oh yeah, if we can get more kids outside and picking up any kind of outdoor activity, the world's gonna be a better place for sure.
Katie
I saw in the document that you sent over before we started that one of the things you really enjoy talking about is becoming an angler and what that means. Do you want to expand on that a little bit? And just what does that mean to you for someone to become an angler and what it means to anybody to become an angler?
Chad
Yeah, that's a deep topic. An angler is somebody that appreciates the environment, is going to conserve the environment, and is out to better themselves, you know, within this sport called fly fishing, you know, and I'm just gonna, and it could be anything that you're doing, but angling specifically, an angler is somebody that tries to learn as much about it as he can, but realizes he's never gonna learn it all. You know, I've been fly fishing and tying flies for 45, oh, 40 years, and I'm by no means an expert, Some people might call me or give me that title, but I don't like that. Because an expert kind of means, or like a master, that means you've learned it all. An angler realizes they haven't learned it all, and they are on a quest for self-fulfillment and betterment. And just sitting in the river and going through your fly box and trying to match the hatch and looking at it all, taking it all in. We recently had an event here on the Bitterroot where a bunch of anglers went out and they cleaned up the river. Those guys are anglers because they're thinking about the environment and everything else. And then the guy that decides that he's going to get really good at one way of fishing and maybe he's a dry fly purist, the dry or die, those guys become anglers. But they also respect the other people as well. So it's a way of, I don't know, enlightenment, I guess, To me, an angler is somebody that just really respects and appreciates everything there is about this sport and not just out there for counting the numbers. How many did I get? Yeah, one of the things I really appreciate is when the people come out and at the end of the day, they've heard some good stories, they've seen some terrific country, we've caught some fish, we've had some experiences together. And whether they've caught a fish or not or caught a bunch of fish or a few fish, It's not necessarily just catching the fish. That's not what you define success as. To me, a successful day on the water, whether it's by myself, with friends or with clients, is those people come away more edified, more fulfilled than they were before they got there. And then they learn something. And to me, also, when I'm out with clients or friends or anybody, I wanna learn something every single day. And that's my goal is to learn something new, either about myself, about the fish, the technique. It doesn't matter. I'm constantly striving to learn. And I take a very humble approach to fly fishing and angling, because I know that there's so much out there. There's somebody better than me out there. There's always somebody better. And if you're humble enough to learn from anybody and everybody, even little children, then you're gonna become a better human being for it. And I think angling and anglers are those people that strive for that.
Katie
I'm very wary of the people that, like you said, when you get called an expert, it makes you uncomfortable. I'm very wary of the people who aren't uncomfortable when they're called an expert or professional or something like that. I've definitely been called things that I'm like, I don't want that title because it almost feels like too much pressure. And I think the people who welcome being called an expert are often the ones who have decided to stop learning and they think that they've reached the pinnacle. It doesn't sound very fun to feel like I'm I know everything, you know, what fun is it if you already know everything?
Chad
Yeah, it's good to be confident, but it's not good to be arrogant If that makes sense I mean when I go out on the river I go out with the intention that I'm gonna catch especially Steelhead like my intention is to go out there and catch a fish and do everything right and I'll be rewarded But at the end of the day if I don't I come away with some knowledge and I'm satisfied You know, but I do you have to fish with if you want to catch fish You got a fish with confidence, you know, and I and I tell my clients that okay We're gonna come up into this run and this is what we're gonna do and be confident to fly in the bug in your abilities And it'll happen and if it doesn't happen, well, what do we do next time? You know and and it's still a victory even if you don't get that tug. We still have a great day
Katie
I was talking to somebody recently and We were talking about how humbling it is when you're skunked on your home River Like, when you're skunked on a river you've never been on before, it's one thing and you're like, "Okay, well, I don't know the bugs here, I don't know what works, I don't know the good runs." But when you go to your home river that you catch fish on every single time and you get skunked, there's a moment of almost panic where you're like, "Do I actually know this river as well as I thought I did?" And I always feel like that's a healthy thing to feel. Everyone should have that feeling at some point where they suddenly question if everything they know is wrong.
Chad
Yeah.
Katie
Just because it puts you in your place a little bit.
Chad
Well, yeah, I mean, Mother Nature has a way of humbling you no matter what. I mean, I've had days on the water where it's like I'm just begging for a whitefish to eat this nymph so this client of mine can at least catch one fish. I've had those days. And then I've had days where, you know, it's just like everything I do is perfect and I'm catching fish no matter what. But no, yeah, you can definitely get your butt kicked on your home water for sure. That's good. I'm glad you said that because it happens to all of us.
Katie
It doesn't. No one wants to admit it. If I tell people I'm going fishing and they know where I'm going and I come back and I haven't caught anything, I almost want to slink away to another room. No one asked me how I did. I don't have to share.
Chad
We all have those days for sure. Hopefully, they're fewer than not.
Katie
Right. an important feeling for everyone to feel but not something that should be felt all the time that's for sure.
Chad
Yeah yeah for sure. No I mean if we didn't catch fish we probably wouldn't do it it's it's that occasion that we do that keeps us coming back because you're connected to another living another life you know another another another entity you know I when I catch fish on the salmon or the Clearwater River I'm just so humbled by these fish that have come hundreds and hundreds of miles from the Pacific Ocean and crossed all these dams and avoided the nets and the predators and everything else to meet me. And so I introduced myself to the fish in some kind of almost spiritual manner. It's like, I can't believe this fish made it all the way up here. And then I'm the one that caught him. And it's just, there's so much reverence and respect. I'm just like, all right, dude, and you gotta keep them wet. Gotta keep them wet, gotta keep them cold, man. respect those fish because they deserve it, absolutely.
Katie
Well, that's a good note to end on, I think. All right. A good thing to leave people with. But before we finish up, do you just want to talk a little bit about Total Outfitters, where you guys operate out of, what kinds of trips you offer, things like that?
Chad
So Total Outfitters, we're a complete fly fishing shop here in Lolo, Montana. We do guided trips for, you know, along the Bitterroot River, Clark Fork, Blackfoot and Missouri rivers. And we cater to all types, you know, whether you're the brand new fly fisherman that needs to learn how, or you're the seasoned angler that knows what he wants. We're gonna cater to that. Of course, we're introducing trout spey, but yeah, you can find us on the web at www.total-outfitters.com or email us at info@totaloutfitters.com. We're on Instagram and Facebook, you know, find us and and we'll figure out what you need and we'll take you out for a trip of a lifetime man.
Katie
Yeah and I can I can attest to the fact I haven't fished all those rivers but I fished a couple of them and boy that was that was one of my favorite trips I've taken up to Montana just kind of hitting hitting all those rivers are all so different but you know the landscapes just beautiful the fish are beautiful and is it Montana that doesn't stock like all these fish are wild?
Chad
Oh yeah they're wild yeah all the fish in the rivers that we fish I You might find some planted fish in some lakes and and reservoirs or ponds or stuff like that But but all of the rivers here have have native wild fish.
Katie
That's just such a nice treat.
Chad
Oh, yeah They're healthy because of it
Katie
And you can tell you know that there's just something you know Even if it's not a native fish just catching something that you can tell you know has spent its whole life in that in that River There's just something different to it.
Chad
Yeah, it's like the nickname says, you know, Montana is the last best place. Man it really is. Montana's the last best place.
Katie
Uh, that's awesome, Chad. Um, I really appreciate you coming on and, and wish you the best of luck in upcoming school year and upcoming, upcoming fishing trips. I hope, I hope things go smoothly for you in these crazy times. All right. And that is all as always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks and you can find me on social media under my name Katie Burgert on GoWild or @fishuntamed on Instagram. I will see all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone!
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.