Ep 33: April Vokey, on Anchored Outdoors and Well-Rounded Skills
April Vokey is the host of the Anchored Podcast and founder of Anchored Outdoors. On her podcast, April captures the stories, thoughts, and passions of our elders within the fly fishing and outdoors worlds, bridging the gap between generations and ensuring that these stories are able to live on for years to come. Anchored Outdoors is her newest venture, a membership website covering fishing, subsistence hunting, foraging, and homesteading. Rather than sharing the knowledge secondhand, April has sought out the experts in each field to demonstrate their skills directly via articles, webinars, and MasterClasses. These topics range from tanning hides to using the whole fish, and much more. In this episode, I got to hear about how the Anchored Podcast and Anchored Outdoors came to be, April's experience making fish leather with human urine, and how she dealt with her first experience feeling bored on the water.
Website: www.anchoredoutdoors.com
Instagram: @aprilvokey
Instagram: @anchored_outdoors
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. all right welcome to episode number 33 of the fish untamed podcast Today was a big one for me as I got to fangirl a bit over someone who I have wanted to talk to for a long time now. April Vokey is, among other things, the host of the Anchored Outdoors podcast where she kind of captures the lives and stories of some of the older folks within the fly fishing world and lately kind of the outdoors world in general. And she also has recently created Anchored Outdoors, which is a membership site where you can sign up to get all of her curated content covering fishing, subsistence hunting, foraging, and homesteading. And for this site, she doesn't teach everything herself. She's gone out and found the expert in every field she wants to cover. So you're not just hearing it secondhand, you're hearing it from the source, who she's deemed to be the authority figure on each topic. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, you will also get a chance to hear about her firsthand experience trying to tan fish leather with human urine. So I will wrap it up there and hop over to my chat with April Vokey. I am joined today by someone who probably needs no introduction, but we'll go into that anyway, April Vokey. How are you doing today, April?
April
I'm fantastic. How are you?
Katie
I'm good. You are on the other side of the world, probably enjoying a morning cup of coffee maybe?
April
I should be enjoying a morning cup of coffee actually. Yeah, it's 9.38 in the morning here, and it is beautiful and sunny.
Katie
It is sunny here, but hard to say beautiful in the western U.S. right now with all the smoke.
April
Great. Yeah. What part of the states are you in?
Katie
I'm in Colorado. And for once, we actually don't have it too bad. We have a couple of fires here, and we're east of all the fires, but some blessing is shining down on us and not having the wind blow directly through Denver. So it's pretty clear here, but I've got a lot of friends who are not in the same boat right now.
April
Yeah, it's really, it's actually, it's devastating to watch. And it's really hard to watch, especially because, you know, earlier this year in Australia, we had, we had the fires and, and, you know, late last year and now all of the support that we had from all of our American friends, it's just so surreal to see everything shifting over there now.
Katie
Now, were you there while the fires were going on?
April
Oh yeah. Yep.
Katie
And were they in, your area?
April
Well, no, just the smoke was wafting our way. We were all right. I mean, they were in everyone's area, but I had the fire app. And I think the closest we got was half an hour from us, but it was on the other side of the river. So we felt okay. But yeah, it was really scary for everybody. It was just they were everywhere. I think the media did seem to blow it up a little bit. It sounded like the whole continent was on fire. But definitely a big part of it was on fire.
Katie
Well, yeah. And like you said, with the smoke, I mean, they actually, the whole West is on fire here and there are a lot of fires, but most of it is not people being directly impacted by the fire, but everybody's being impacted by the smoke. And I know a lot of people have had to evacuate too. So it doesn't look like a lot, but it affects a lot more people than directly.
April
Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully they get it tamed soon.
Katie
Now I assume you're, since you're in the opposite season right now, right now it's not super bad fire season where you are.
April
Yeah. It's not bad right now. They're doing controlled burning. So we are officially in spring now.
Katie
Well, that's a nice time of year.
April
It's a very strange time of year. I've never been here before at this time of year. Oh, really? No, I'm always in Canada. And so it's, I love spring. I just, I had no idea what an Aussie spring looked like until like seven years later. And it's really, really awesome.
Katie
Now is the, I know we, we talked briefly before we started recording, but what's the fishing like at this time of year in Australia? Have you been getting out much?
April
Not as much as we would like to travel. So they've closed all the states here, right? So we literally can't go to Victoria if we wanted to, we can't even go one state down. And unfortunately for everyone there, I mean, they're on like a proper lockdown. There's curfews. It's really, really crazy. Oh, okay. Yeah. So fishing is going to start ramping up usually around November for the type of fishing we like to do. Oh, I lie actually. In three weeks, trout opens. So we are going to the Snowy Mountains for 10 days and I'm going to get to experience this Aussie trout fishery because again, I'm usually in Canada fishing for steelhead. And apparently we're going to a mountain where there's snow, like real actual snow that's not man-made or anything. So I mean, not being in Canada has definitely been, it's been tough, but look at all the cool things we get to try while we're here. So we're looking at it from an optimistic stance and I'm just excited to try all the stuff I've never seen before down here.
Katie
Well, it sounds like making the best of a bad situation.
April
That's right. Lemonade, baby.
Katie
Now, what kinds of trout do they have down there?
April
So they're stocked, right? But rainbow and brown trout. And there is some quality trout here. You don't just have to go to New Zealand or to Tasmania. New South Wales and Victoria, those two states have got just fantastic trout fishing, apparently. I've done a little bit and the fish haven't been huge, but where we're going in the Snowies is supposed to be fantastic.
Katie
Oh, well, that sounds like a lot of fun. I'm jealous. Although we are in the middle of hunting season here. And that is something I wanted to ask you about. I know we had talked a couple months back and you had, you'd requested that we push this off a little bit because you were in the middle of the rut. Did, did you have any luck?
April
I had a whole lot of buck fever. I needed some Tylenol. Like it was, wow. It was a very, very frustrating rut. I mean, as always, you learn something, right? But it's like, okay, I've gotten, this is like, what is this? Well, I haven't got a deer now since Adelaide was, she was like six, she was still on the boob. Let's just put it that way when I got my last deer. So it's been two years since I've had a deer. I'm ready. But no, to answer your question is I did not get one, but I learned a lot, you know, the usual answer.
Katie
That's all you can ask for. Yeah. That's something I was going to ask later, but since we're on the topic, do you feel like you've kind of been, I don't want to say sacrificing as though it's a, it's a bad thing, but, I know you do take Adelaide out on a lot of your adventures. Um, and definitely there's definitely value in that, but do you ever feel, kind of the frustration of dealing with the, I guess, a toddler now, when you're trying to do something that is inherently not toddler friendly?
April
Um, that's a loaded question because there's so many ways that I could answer that. Yes. Uh, yes and no frustration with her. No, because when you take a toddler You just roll with it, right? Like you know that it's not going to be what you expect.
Katie
Right, right.
April
But the upside to that is that they never fail to surprise you. So it's always so exciting. Like she is the most adventurous, incredible buddy I've ever had. If I was going to be completely transparent, I would say my frustration, if we're going to keep it real to all the moms and dads out there, my biggest frustration was probably with my loving husband at first, just getting him to have the confidence. to be able to take her for, you know, a few days if I wanted to be able to go out. So that frustration has since been, we found a solution. And I think that we're, this is going to be the year, but yeah, for a while there, I'd say right as she was like a year and a half going into two, it was frustrating just because I couldn't, I had a hard time being able to go and do certain things I wanted to do. So I had to take her. So I wouldn't be frustrated with her. I would just be more frustrated that I was in that situation at all, if that makes sense.
Katie
Yeah. And I definitely didn't mean it frustrated with her, but just, I could see myself getting frustrated would be just lack of success in feeling a tag. Obviously there's different ways to measure success in something like that, but I'm sure there's definitely been times where it just hasn't gone as ideally planned. But like I said, I'm sure there's so many benefits to sharing that time with her and introducing her to those things that I would never think it would be viewed as a negative, but I'm sure I would get frustrated at times.
April
Oh yeah. And frustration does happen all the time with your kid. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. But the other thing is I've got to be totally honest with you. This was my most frustrating year so far. And like the one where you and I were talking and I was trying to push it back. And it was the most frustrating because I had all the freedom in the world. My husband was like, yep, go, yep, go. I've got it, go. And so the only person I could blame was myself. So it's actually, for me, it was easier to have Adelaide because then if we didn't get one, I was like, oh, well, it's because we're having mummy daughter time. And this is an experience. It doesn't matter if we get a deer and it's okay that she spooked the deer because she got to see the deer. So I was constantly leaving every hunt on a really high note because I knew that there was something great that came of it. Whereas with this one, there's always something positive. So the positive thing was that I learned what to not do next year, but it was very frustrating in knowing that I had all the time in the world and the only person who was screwing it up was me. So basically I had no one to blame but myself.
Katie
Well, I mean, I guess at the end of the day, that's the best situation you can be in because then you just kind of narrowed it down to yourself, which is something you can work on and fix. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I usually start off by asking people how they got their start in the outdoors, but I also don't want to beat a dead horse because I'm sure you've exhausted that story a thousand times. So I'm definitely willing to hear it if you'd like to tell it. But there is something specific I wanted to ask. I was reading through your about section again, just to refresh my memory. but something I realized that I don't know if I've ever heard you talk about, and maybe I'm just forgetting, is you mentioned that you got started fishing very early as a young girl. But what got you into fishing? Did you have a parent that got you into it? Or was that something that you had just always been really interested in doing?
April
Yeah. My parents don't, they didn't fish as such. I mean, we would take camping trips and we would troll worms. I would say that if I had to really cut to the meat of it is in the water. It was the water. So I was always really obsessed with water and we would constantly drive out to the country and go to the river and we would skip rocks and we would bring pepperoni and bread and just eat our picnic down by the river. And we did bring a fishing rod. So I guess it all kind of rolls itself into one, but I can't say it was the fish that drew me to fishing initially, as crazy as that sounds. It was more the adventure of like what's in that water and can I find it? And then when I was younger, and I have been vocal about this, when I was younger, I saw a dead salmon that had been washed up and he wasn't rotted. He must've maybe bashed his head during one of his runs or one of his jumps. I don't know, but he was fresh and silver and dead. And my parents explained salmon migrations. And that for me was my big whoa moment to see that such an enormous and fantastic fish was going through a river that was 15 feet wide. And just the mathematics told me that I had a chance at intercepting it. So that was really how it all started.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. I think to say that you got hooked on fishing before fish is probably a common theme amongst kids who got into it really young, because I feel like generally kids that get started that young don't get to see fish very often when they're, when they're fishing by themselves or, you know, you don't catch a lot.
April
Yeah, exactly. And then, I mean, just the water and then in BC, in all these logging roads, every corner is an adventure, right? So it's always just one more, what's one more turn, one more corner, one more minute. And, and the whole thing just kind of, it's, it was the whole experience. It was certainly not, you know, going out and catching a lot of fish, like, you know, For most kids, it's the same story.
Katie
Yeah, I think I was in the same boat as a kid too. I didn't catch much, but I remember telling my dad at one point that I wish there was some invention that someone could come up with that would point to all the fish in the water so I could see where they all were because I was just so intrigued with knowing where they were hiding and being able to know that, oh, there's a big fish over there. And just boating around or walking around through the water and looking for fish to see where they lived and what they were doing was just fascinating.
April
Yes, absolutely. Or like, what about this one? Did you ever wonder to yourself, what would happen if all the water was removed right this very second? I still wonder that.
Katie
Well, in college, they drained one of our local lakes because apparently the dam was starting to fail. And I remember thinking like, I could just drive down there and see what's left. But apparently they took all the fish out before they drained it and put them elsewhere, which is good. But for a moment, I was like, I'm going to go see what's all in there.
April
Yeah, no doubt.
Katie
So what brought you then from childhood all the way up to when you got started with Anchor, the podcast itself, not Anchored Outdoors, which I do want to cover. But if you want to just briefly cover that time span between childhood and then when you started your podcast.
April
Yeah. Typical fishing bum, sleeping out of the car, putting myself in really stupid situations, eat, sleep, breathe, skipping school, skipping work, ruining relationships, all the usual stuff. Just obsessed. and then obviously the next step to an obsession is I need to do it more. How can I do it more? Oh, wait, I need to eat. How do I find a way to eat and do this more? So the answer was obvious and it was guiding. And so I started to look into that and eventually ended up guiding. And that was really, if we had to jump through the progression real fast, it was, I started guiding or I started, I wanted to know more myself so I could guide. So that was my first step was investing time into myself, which of course everybody thought was ludicrous. So you're just like, you're what? My parents are like, what are you doing? You could be a lawyer and you're spending your time trying to become a better fisher because you need it for work. Like it just didn't make sense to a lot of people. But for me, it was very clear. I needed to become a better angler so that more people would come guiding with me or come fishing with me. And then I started the operation and then started to become bored is really how it went down in a lot of ways. And I started listening to podcasts. And one day it hit me that I would start my own podcast. And the whole thing kind of happened around the same time as my television series. I was filming all these incredible stories and all these incredible people. And we were editing these two hour long interviews into like five minute sound bites. And I was guiding and was bored and was listening to someone else's podcast. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to take all that cut footage and I'm going to turn it into a podcast as well. And that's really how the show started.
Katie
And so at the time, was it, was it people that were already kind of in the like show business? And I know that you kind of use Anchored to document the stories of people who you think, you know, their stories are worth documenting. Was it those people who were already involved with the kind of fishing media scene and you were just kind of taking their sound bites and turning them into podcasts?
April
No, I had a very specific set of interviews that I was after and they were interviews that inspired me and brought me to life. And those at the time, especially, and probably still to this day are from older people. If I had to really explain kind of mentally, you know, or preface all this to explain mentally where I was at, I was getting bored. And I don't believe in boredom. I don't do boredom. Like I'm, I have a crack cocaine brain. It's constantly nonstop. It does. It doesn't sit still. So boredom for me is very dangerous. And I always believe. Like if you get bored, pick up a book, learn how to speak another language. There should be no such thing as boredom. And so when that started happening to me on the river, not while fishing, but while guiding, because you're out there seven days with the same guest at some point, and they're with you every year. At some point, they just don't want to talk to you anymore. So you're walking the bank trying to, I was stacking rocks. I just didn't know what to do with myself. And that was when I started to explore my own fishing and things that excited me. And fish. It wasn't even catching the hardest fish. It was starting to explore the history of the fishery and then trying to follow in the steps of a lot of the people who came before me. So I spent a lot of time on legendary rivers thinking to myself, did Roderick Haig Brown walk this river? What kind of rod would he be fishing? So then I would go out of my way to try to get the kind of rod he'd be fishing in. What kind of fly would he be fishing? So then I would read one of his books and then go and try to catch a fish on the same sort of fly he was fishing. It sounds really kind of like creepy, I guess, but I was fascinated by these older people and they brought me back to life. So my whole goal was to podcast people and our elders and the history that we still had, because I felt like it wasn't being done properly. There were all of these legends who were alive and in their nineties even. And it was like the world had just forgotten about them. And, you know, in the thirties, forties, fifties, they were legendary, but in our, in today's social media generation they were just forgotten about. And they don't know what, a lot of them don't know what social media is, nor do they care to find out what it is. And so I thought, well, they bring me back to life. They've got such a story to tell that could probably bring other people back to life. And quite frankly, they really enjoy telling their stories. So the show started out specifically and still has at its very core, the whole purpose is to document and archive the stories of these people who have just lived richer lives than any of us could imagine.
Katie
I don't think that sounds creepy at all, wanting to follow in someone's footsteps. Like you said, when you've fished the same run over and over again to the same people over and over again, I think it's natural to want to branch out and experience something more. But if that's not possible for you, the next best way is to talk to somebody else who's had that experience and live it through them.
April
That's right. And sorry, You cut out there and I don't know if the audio is going to be okay there, but it's selfish, right? Selfishly, I do the show to make me feel good about certain things or struggles or my own curiosity. And so if you follow the show, you'll notice that it goes through these different bends. When I'm really confused about a hunting season, I might podcast a bow hunter to answer my own questions. If I'm feeling a little bit down in life, I might podcast somebody who's going to enlighten me or offer some insight. If I feel like I'm getting skunked with a certain fish, I'll try to podcast that person. So the show definitely ebbs and flows and follows. It's never quite the same, but that's if I'm just putting it all out there, it's just because I'm selfishly trying to feed my own needs through it. And I hope that it helps other people along the way who might be going through the same struggles.
Katie
Well, I think that's one of the beautiful things about podcasting because I would assume that most people are in the same boat who podcast. It kind of opens up a door to speak to people that you might not otherwise get to speak to. But in that selfish pursuit of getting to talk to people, you then share it usually for free with however many people are willing to listen. And so you kind of share the wealth in that way. And then a lot of people like to come on and tell their story too. I'm sure that a lot of the older people that you speak to, like you said, they don't have that social media presence and they most likely don't want it. But I feel like you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who doesn't want to share their story with somebody who's interested.
April
Yeah. And it's so cool. I mean, a lot of them have been in like nursing homes and I've got to give props to the younger generation because they hear a lot of these stories, then they go out of their way to reach a lot of our elders. Because let's just say it for like that's what they are. They're our elders. And so the younger generations just totally renewed my faith in young people because they go out of their way to reach out to the older generation and they don't know how much of an impact they're having. I mean, I know Ted Niemeyer, when he was on the show, he was in his old folks' home or his home. And he would tell me that it meant so much to him when younger people would reach out to him. Like it was the highlight of his day because a lot of these guys and gals, a lot of them aren't really doing much throughout the day. So an email from a young person or a call or even stopping by for a visit just makes all the difference. And yeah, I'm really, really, I love, I'm in love with my audience. Just I can't say enough great things about them.
Katie
And I think you're one of the only shows that does something like that because I think you're one of the only people who is actually willing to travel to speak with these people? Because I think most of them would probably be pretty inaccessible if it weren't for getting to talk face-to-face.
April
Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And then with COVID, it's so polarizing. There's so many people that you just can't, I mean, a lot of them just simply don't have email or like, you know, the thought of turning on the internet is just, it's unheard of. So yeah, I'm afraid that during this COVID time that some interviews for a lot of us are going to be left behind.
Katie
Well, I hope you know that I, and I'm sure many of the people appreciate what you've done and getting to capture these people's stories because long after they're gone, I'm sure people are still going to be listening to your episodes. And I bet that's going to be a lot of people's only connection with these folks and probably would have never heard of many of them without getting to hear them on something that seems so modern and relevant as a podcast, but kind of bridging that gap between the younger generation who spends a lot of time on technology and that's most of their information and then the older generation who doesn't have that. So I do think your podcast is really bridging the gap between those two generations. Thanks. Thanks. So how did you then transition from anchored to anchored outdoors? Because that's something that's a little bit more of a recent thing and I've been loving it, but I don't really know how it came to be.
April
Yeah. So that launched, it was in the works last year, but it launched February this year. And basically I've just had people for, well, the entire duration of the show. So for the last six years, seven years, six years, asking for more, right? Like how do we see him do that? How do we see her do what she's telling us to do? And so I just thought it was time to take Anchor to the next level. And yeah, that's really it. I thought about doing it on something like Patreon, but I just couldn't see past that. And I really wanted to solidify my community and the community really bring it to life. And so Anchored Outdoors is a membership company. There's a ton of free content on there so that people can still be educated because I believe in free education. There's also a paywall where you can really up your game with quality content with people from the show and truly the best experts to help you along the way. So our masterclasses are really what's starting to boom. there's so much good stuff on the way, Katie. It's crazy. And like, even right now I've got a guy up North, he's filming Bob Clay's bamboo rod building masterclass. And, and there's just a ton of masterclasses on the way. And a lot of these masterclasses wouldn't be possible if, you know, these guys and gals hadn't been podcasted so that that relationship was set and they, they trust us to come in and capture them doing their craft. But the masterclasses are definitely the avenue and the direction that Anchored Outdoors is going so that we can have you listen to the podcast, know who you're learning from, appreciate who you're learning from, but then actually do what they're telling you that they do and what you can do as well.
Katie
Yeah, I guess one question I probably should have prefaced with is what took you from fishing to kind of branching more out? Because Anchored Outdoors does involve a lot of fishing, but a lot of it's also hunting and foraging, just kind of basic, I don't know if you would describe it as primitive skills, but just kind of skills that I feel like have kind of been lost and are just a good thing to learn, but that are just generally related to the outdoors. What kind of caused you to branch out from a fishing-specific niche to kind of an all-encompassing outdoors theme? So selfishness again?
April
I guess I'm just the most selfish person that there is. I'm just hungry for knowledge. I'm really, really hungry for knowledge. And so I've always been really interested in hunter gatherer skills, even though that's, you know, I don't know if that's the correct term because there's a lot of people who will say, does true hunter gatherers really exist? We'll just avoid that conversation right now. But just the whole package, right? I like to go in the bush and be able to experience everything. I want to know that if I get stuck out there that I can feed myself. I love homesteading. I've got a cabin in Northern BC. I spent a lot of time doing my own homesteading. And I just thought, you know, I would like to have this library of knowledge for myself. And then rather than just keeping it for myself, I'm going to share it with my members. And wouldn't you know, it just so happens that other outdoors people and outdoor anglers are also interested in subsistence hunting, specifically bow hunting and foraging and, you know, other homesteading skills that come into play when we're out in the wilderness.
Katie
Now, were you getting specific requests from people to kind of branch out? Like I know you said that a lot of them are interested in specifically bow hunting. Was that something that people were saying like, Hey, I love your fishing content, but I like, I also would really love if you talked about this.
April
Yeah. I was getting a lot of really interesting requests from people saying, I didn't even, or a lot of people saying, I didn't even realize that I was into mushroom picking or foraging until I started listening to the show. Or like a lot of people saying, you know, I was going to skip this episode because I thought, meh, it's not really my gig. But then they listened to it and went, whoa, you know, I've got to try that. I mean, we're all doing a class together right now in bow drill, right? So starting a fire with just using just your elements, like a shoestring, a couple sticks, et cetera, et cetera. And I mean, a lot of the members didn't even think about that just wasn't something that ever register to them until it was in their face. So sometimes you just need to know it's available to you to give it a try. And personally, I think all of us need to know how to do some of these skills on the bush. We put ourselves in so many dangerous situations, not everybody. I mean, some people fish safely and tend to relax. I always fish for adventure and excitement and to get away. And I could think of a couple of situations where I should have known how to make fire by hand. So, I mean, the way I see it is, do I deter some people by offering all of that? Maybe. But again, selfishly, I want to be surrounded by like-minded people. And that's what's happening. We're just this growing community of like-minded people. And the people who aren't into foraging, for example, they just don't read or watch that stuff. There's still an abundance of fishing information that they can turn to instead.
Katie
Yeah, I would definitely say that I'm in the boat that was kind of, I didn't know that that's what I wanted until I saw that you were offering it. And it was to the point where I was like, well, I probably like the fishing stuff most, but I'll delve into some of these other topics as well. And it's actually been the opposite of what I've expected where the fishing stuff I feel like is, you know, I'm almost inundated with fishing content all the time because I choose to be. And because of that, I've found myself more drawn to everything that's not fishing related, despite the fact that fishing is probably my number one favorite activity, I find myself more drawn to the things that are kind of outside my wheelhouse because that's what's intriguing to me. So I bet there's a lot of people in that boat as well who came for the fishing and then ended up kind of ditching that and just consuming everything else.
April
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And honestly, you know, someone like you, you're my target audience, if you will. And it's because when you get to the stage where you're quote unquote bored, there's probably a better word for that. And maybe you'll never get there, but quite likely you will. It's nice to be able to stay outside and still appreciate being outside, but seeing it differently. Like you might get to a stage and you're, how old are you, Katie? I'm 27. Yeah. Okay. So you might get to a stage when you might just so happen to find yourself more interested in picking mushrooms than you do fishing. And it's my job to be able to offer you that education so that you at least know what mushrooms you should be picking and to have the confidence in, in what you're doing. And like, I, and I don't want you to have to, that's the other thing is I don't want you to have to Google experts and, and be questioning if you're in the right hands, like at least cause you're a member, right?
Katie
I am.
April
Yeah, I mean at least with your membership, you know that if someone's on there telling you what to do You can trust what they're telling you to do and that's really important We just don't have time to sit and sift through the internet these days. There's so much stuff on there and and most of it is great and some of it is not you know and and the big thing that that I've learned as a foraging student as an as a new forager for example is I I I realized it's overwhelming as a new student in this world to get on there and not know who to trust And so that's something I really started to do is just take the mystery out. So you don't have to focus on sifting through information or reputable instructors. You can just go to the source and trust what you're, what you're absorbing.
Katie
Well, that's exactly why I signed up. I, I felt like I finally got to the place in my life where, paying for content that I knew was reputable was preferable to sifting through free content that I wasn't sure about. Um, I feel like in college, my roommate and I joked that like one day we'll be, we'll be, you know, stable enough financially to just actually buy organic produce. You know, there comes a point in your life where, where you're actually willing to pay for the right, for the right thing. And that's kind of where I landed with this. Like you said, there's a lot of free info out there. And your course isn't expensive by any means. But it was, it was, I just finally got to the point where I was like, I would rather save my time sifting through a thousand YouTube videos. and pay the small fee to have it spoon fed to me and not have to question the legitimacy of it. Because I know that because you're making an income off it, you have the ability and the resources to seek out the right people for the job. And that's what I've enjoyed about it so far. I think you had Tom Brown Jr. I'm not sure what all he's done on, or Tom Brown III, sorry, Tom Brown III. I'm not sure what all he's done on your site, but his dad wrote The Tracker, which was one of my favorite books of all time. So I was super excited to see that he was one of your people.
April
Yeah. He's not just one of my people. He's my homestead coordinator. And actually I talk to Tom every day. So we're filming his masterclass, in October. So yeah, he, well, he's one of the reasons this whole thing happened, by the way, he's the bugger that kind of set this off. Cause I podcast, I podcasted him by mistake. Um, he had messaged me and was like, Hey, I never do this, but I think that we should talk. And I ended up just taking a chance on him and podcasting him in, where was it, Oregon, and was so absolutely interested in his whole story and his knowledge that I ran out of time and then went back again, drove from BC back up to Seattle this time to go meet him, do a second part. And he had me so reignited, just so excited about everything that he was saying that I thought, okay, well, I obviously I'm going to take this route personally, but then from a podcast stance, all my listeners were like that Tom Brown guy, we want more of that. And, and that was kind of when it all started going down and I had messaged him and I was like, I think I'm going to start anchored outdoors. Um, so he was kind of the, the catalyst that got it all rolling. Yeah. He's an OG for sure. Like for me anyway. And, and yeah, Tom is, I can't say enough great things about Tom. He's just a rock and just such a wealth of information. I can only wish to know as much as he and his dad do.
Katie
I remember when I saw his episode come out on Anchored, I was in shock because I don't think I even really had followed up to find out if Tom Brown Jr. had any kids and what they were up to. And when I saw his name, it almost registered, but not in a direct way. I was like, how do I know this name? It sounds very similar to something I know, but not quite. And then when I heard the description, I was like, oh my God, I like, I did not know that this was even an option for me to, to look into. But yeah, I was, that was probably my favorite episode you've ever done.
April
Yeah. Right. And then the crazy, like sometimes you just never know who you're going to get and how it's going to go. So, you know, just going to take chances and see what happens, but he definitely is a special guy. I'm a huge fan of Tom Brown, both of them.
Katie
So what is, what is he specifically, well, I guess you said he's in charge of homesteading, but what, what all do you cover in anchored outdoors just for someone who's not familiar with it?
April
Yeah. So fishing, subsistence hunting, foraging, homesteading. And, so any, that, anything that you would call technically hunter gatherer. So Tom, does a ton of writing, for us and obviously a bunch of filming and then he coordinates. So everybody on there who is contributing from homesteading or foraging, like, I don't, I don't know any of these people. well, I'm not in that field. I don't know who to trust, who the experts were. So Tom organizes all of that.
Katie
That makes sense. So he basically has connections then that you're able to basically trust his, his vetting of people.
April
Yep. Yep. And he helps get everyone's articles. Like obviously contributors have a bunch of questions. We've got a ton of contributors. So we don't do recycled content on the site. So everything that's written up there is written specifically for Anchored Outdoors. So there's a lot of discussion about what's going to go up and We don't waste our time arguing about commas and stuff, but we do want to make sure that the information that's being shared can help a lot of people who are pretty new in their journey as well.
Katie
Have you found that what you've learned, like I assume you've learned a ton just getting this set up as well. Do you find your living situation between Australia and British Columbia is almost like thrown off when you're hearing it? How universal is the content that's on Anchored Outdoors? Do you notice anything where it's like, oh, this is kind of specific to this part of the world? Or have you found that it's pretty universal to the, especially the two places that you go back and forth between?
April
Try not to keep it too specific for obvious reasons. I think some of the Zoom presentations, we do free bi-weekly Zoom presentations and that can get specific. Like I think we've got an upcoming one specifically in Texas. We just did a very specific one on hunting with llamas. So this one tomorrow is fishing Sydney Harbor. So those tend to get specific, but the content that's on the site is typically pretty – actually, Tom Brown just sent me a text message as we're talking. Yeah, no, it's pretty universal, I think. I'm trying to think if there's anything in particular. I mean, some of the things that some of the foraging contributors write about may be more specific to the East Coast, but usually you can find it a lot of what they're talking about in the West Coast as well, as well as Australia. So I think it's pretty universal.
Katie
Okay. Yeah. I guess it was maybe foraging that was specifically coming to mind for me because I was just thinking that there's probably such variety. You can't hide anywhere, but if you're pointing out mushrooms, I feel like that kind of, kind of get a little bit, at least continent specific. So I just wasn't sure if you had, if you had noticed anything there.
April
Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny and we're very careful with mushrooms because that's a real, that's a real tough one. But like the, our latest mushroom article from a few days ago, Abby just focuses on like it's a, it's a sustainable mushroom foraging articles. She really talks about how to do it sustainably, what to look for. She offers a bunch of field guide suggestions. There's a ton of information about how to identify mushrooms, but they're not specific to the mushrooms themselves. So it's a pretty overall, like it's just a wide, we're casting a wide net over things like mushrooms.
Katie
Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So where do you see Anchored Outdoors going? Is it kind of just full steam ahead with what you've been doing, just producing more content? Or do you have any other big plans in the works?
April
The masterclasses take up, I'd say 90% of my time right now. And we just have so many on the way now. So like next week are we, this is such a girl crush thing for me to say. There's this woman in Sweden and I'm just obsessed with her. Her name is, her name is Lotta Ram. And when I started tanning fish leather again, after Tom Brown told me it was a possibility, I started doing that a few years ago and just became obsessed with turning fish skin into leather. I just think it's the coolest thing on the planet and it's beautiful, beautiful leather. But I was getting hung up on certain things that I couldn't find anywhere. There was just, there's certain intricacies when you're tanning a fish hide or fish let skin that you can't find anywhere. But everything I kept finding kept leading me back to the world authority and you can't even dispute it. the world authority is Lada Ram in Sweden. And I bought her book. There was like one copy left that I could find. I had to get it ordered to a friend in America because they wouldn't ship to Australia and then like get him to get it to me. And it was just this huge event chain of events to make it happen. But anyway, I read it with my jaw open. So I finally was able to get her to do our master class. So her class launches next week. It's been difficult trying to do all this with COVID, but we were able to get it done. So fish skinning one goes up next week. And then how to hide with Natalie Bogwalker. All that is science sealed delivered. So that one should be up a few weeks after. And then we're currently filming how to make a bamboo rod with Bob Clay. How to field dress a game animal is next month. And then Brian Gregson's outdoor photography is December. Tom Brown's survival class is coming up soon. That'll be November. There's so much stuff. Oh, Abby's doing a winter mushroom foraging one. So that one's going to be good. And then we've got a foraging one filmed with Yara Willard that'll be coming up in the next couple of months as well. So that's just in like, that's by the end of the year, there's so much stuff happening. And then Pacific salmon, fishing for Pacific salmon with Scott Baker McGarva starts being filmed in October. And then I think that catches me up till January. So you can tell that's like, that's a lot of irons in the pot. So there's a lot of just focus on getting these masterclasses up right now.
Katie
I'm going to be all over those high tanning ones, especially the fish tanning. Is there, this might be a kind of a dumb question. I'll probably find out when the masterclass goes live, but is there a fish that's too small to tan the skin of? Like if I catch a 15 inch rainbow trout, is that out for preserving the skin?
April
Totally fine. Totally fine. Yeah, I mean, obviously it's nice to have bigger leather and your skin will shrink a little bit, but no, you'll be totally fine with a trout. And have you taken the Josh Nyland masterclass yet on how to use all the fish?
Katie
I haven't. I've been super swamped with hunting season here. So this is, I've, I've been planning on doing these masterclasses this, like late fall, in that in-between season between fall and winter when there's something to do.
April
Good. We'll follow up then. We'll follow up then. Okay. Perfect. But, yeah, no, so you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll have your hands full in the winter. It's a, but you're, you're, you're trout's fine. Yeah. You can do all that. Are you, the question is, cause Lotta only covers in her class, she covers bark tanning because you can tan leather with, with, tree bark and, or you could also do it with an olive oil mix. So it's like olive oil and egg and some detergent. Right. But when I was trying, I did the third method, which is with human urine, which I don't recommend. It was not, I just, I have just no on so many levels.
Katie
Why did you opt for that option when there were two others?
April
Well, because I couldn't get a lot of for the class. I thought, well, hell, I better become really good at this. If I'm going to start talking about it to people at the time, thankfully we've, we've got a lot of since then, but, yeah, I wanted to know all three options and those are the three options. So I thought, well, go hard to go home. So I figured them all out and can safely say that I can see now why a lot is not teaching urine tanning because it's just a stinky mess. And I've got, I was sharing it on Instagram. So anyone who follows me on Instagram and hears me talking about this, just know where I won't be asking you to tan fish skin with your pee, but I was filming the whole process and like our entire deck was full of like these glass jars full of urine and it reeks so bad. It's like there was constantly a jar in our bathroom and my husband knew that every time we went to pee, he had to pee in that jar. I had my own jar. I would pee in my jar because you have to change the urine out every few days or else it just absolutely reeks. But yeah, not nice, not nice. And then I would say that the skin doesn't really smell like urine after, but the problem is, is your brain is so adapted to just the smell of urine that you can't look at it or smell it the same way.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like that would definitely be a placebo effect of if you know it was tan that way, you might never be able to get it out of your head when you see it.
April
Yeah. It was interesting, but you know, historically it was a big thing and they would always be like, it'd have to be like the urine of virgins or like Like the urine of what they really mean. And this does make sense. It was actually the urine of young people before they'd gone through puberty, I believe. And that was just because it lacked a certain, whatever chemical composition or something like that.
Katie
Yeah. Okay.
April
Yeah. I don't know enough about it. And a lot of skips it in the class, but, yeah, it's really interesting what you can do with fish skin, but you know, with the other methods, I mean, anyone listening right now, especially if you've got your phone in your hand, just Google fish skin leather and see like it is incredible and it's super soft. And like I use it to make, or I got a bunch and was making a bunch to make moccasins out of it for Adelaide. Um, when I had time to be on the sewing machine, you can just do so durable. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, it's like crocodile skin, right? It's like that same sort of, I'll take a picture. I've got, I've got two beautiful salmon, skins that I'll, I'll send you over a photo and an email so you can see them or, or when this goes live, just remind me and I'll shoot you over a photo that you can share, but okay.
Katie
Perfect. Or you, or you can just take the class yourself and see what I will definitely be in the class. I'm just picturing like when I, when I like throw a brook trout on the grill, I feel like the skin almost, it doesn't disintegrate, but when I go to pick into the fish, the skin just kind of melts almost. So it's just hard to picture that in a, in a durable situation, but I guess that's what the whole process is for.
April
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of, you know, soaking and waiting and drying and then softening and, skin can be done one of two ways. Right. And like even Josh, when he talks about it in his class, he talks about making skin crackle, which is really interesting. And we do that a lot around here. And so what we do is we, we boil the skin or we blanch it real quick. And then like, it's really important with both processes, whether you're going to eat it as crackle or whether you're going to skin it for leather. Um, I always have a little shell that I've taken home from the beach and like a clam shell, and you want to scrape all of that fat and all the gray stuff off of the, off the one side and also scaling it, right? You also want to scale it, which you can also do with the, with the shell. And so you just want to really scrape both sides. And if you're going to eat it as crackle, well, you know, that really got like, like pork crackle, you then blanch it in hot water for 10, 15 seconds, maybe. And then you take it out and you dehydrate it in your dehydrator or in your oven on a really low setting. And once you remove all of that, all of that moisture, it means that when it's rehydrated with oil, it literally just turns into like this big series of bubbles of just like crispy goodness. And we have them in the house as chips because you can even, you can even dehydrate them and just put them away for a bit. You don't even need to refry them. You just refry them as you need them. But yeah, definitely like skin crackle. If you like pork crackle, fish skin The crackle is so good and so cheap and it's delicious.
Katie
Now, is his name Josh Nyland?
April
Yeah, Josh Nyland.
Katie
He wrote The Whole Fish?
April
Yeah.
Katie
Okay. Now, is that in that book, The Crackle?
April
Yes.
Katie
Okay. I'll have to look that up because I have the book, but I haven't dove in yet.
April
Yeah. Well, his masterclass is on the site. I don't know how we got him. I swear to God, I have no idea how he got him. I think it's because I was in his life before he really blew up to becoming this enormous entity that he is now. But his masterclass is jaw-dropping. It can be disturbing in some spots, but it's jaw-dropping. And he'll show you how to use 93% of your fish and only discard of 7%.
Katie
That is something I definitely need to be better about. And I bet 99% of anglers are in the same boat.
April
Well, do you know that the culinary industry only uses like 43% of the fish?
Katie
Like the commercial fish industry?
April
like the restaurants.
Katie
And you'd think that those people would be the ones who would have that kind of niche knowledge to use more. I feel like I would expect your average everyday angler to be like, I'm going to cut the fillets off and be done. But if anyone had the knowledge to use the whole fish, you'd expect it to be the people who are in the culinary world.
April
But it's what sells, right? So does somebody really want to buy a rack of fish ribs? Probably who just don't know how to properly care for their fish. And one of the things that he covers in the class and in his book or wherever you're getting your Josh and Island information from is he talks about how you cannot add water to fish. And we've been experimenting with this at home for the last year or so. If you rinse your fish off, you've just welcomed in the smell of ammonia into your house. Because that's what happens is the water starts to go bad in a sense. And it basically gives you that quote unquote fishy fish is from rinsing your fish with water. So now when we get our fish home, not only have we changed how we harvest our fish, I'll still, if I have to just bleed my fish out and bring it home, but we, we started doing like, I think it's called Kajibi. No, I'm saying it wrong, but it's the Japanese method of brain spiking your fish and then putting your fish in ice slurry while you're on the boat and then bringing it home. So it's okay to be on ice then, but when you take it home and you get ready to process your fish and you gut your fish, you use a paper towel. Don't use any water at all. And then we've started aging our fish. So we'll age our fish for several days, up to a week, really, depending on the fish, before we eat it to get the flavor. Because otherwise it's just like, I don't know, it just tastes like whatever you're putting on it, right? It just tastes like butter or tastes like salt or lemon or whatever. And so he's got that, he dives into that in a class. Um, and this is not me trying to upsell. This is me genuinely trying to make people eat more of their fish in the class. He explains why you need to change what you're doing. Um, he explains it in the book too. So if you, if you, if you want to just buy the book, you can do it that way as well. But, just start paying attention to how we need to all start paying attention to how we harvest our fish, because there's no reason why we're eating less fish. It's super good for us. Um, a lot of these fish species are sustainable and, and, and a lot of them are just going in the garbage. So it's kind of just doing everyone a favor.
Katie
Now, quick question on the, on the water. Cause I do remember him mentioning that when he was on your podcast, not, not rinsing your fish in water. Is that including like, getting like the slime off when you get home? Are you taking a paper towel to that as well?
April
Exactly what he's talking about. He's saying, don't do, don't do it. So use a scraper, use a towel. Like you'll see in the class when he, and you're a member, so you'll definitely see when you're on it, he lays this huge fish out and there is not a drop of water that goes on that fish. And he explains how much everything weighs in the liver. And like, I got to say fish liver is delicious. And like people listening right now are like, Oh, get real. Come on. But chicken livers don't taste like chicken and beef liver doesn't taste like beef and fish liver doesn't taste like fish. The most incredible, like there's just, there's certain, and it's the cleanest liver that you can have. Right. So there's just things that I think that we could probably do better with, with trying or like collars. I can't believe that anybody would discard of a fish collar when you can just put barbecue sauce on and throw it on the grill. And, and the other thing that's kind of caused a bit of a stir in our house is I actually crave fish heads now. Like I never craved fish. Like that was disgusting to me. Fish heads were just disgusting. But then after you wrap your head around the fact that it's just meat. I will literally, when Charles is out of town, go to the fish market and they, they know me by now. So they just give me all their stuff and they give me a couple of fish heads and I boil them up at night and I sit with my chopsticks and I just go to town and it's the sweetest, most succulent meat. Um, especially if you do it in like curry. Oh, I could tell I haven't had lunch yet. Cause I'm getting super hungry talking about it, but a lot of it's just getting your head wrapped around it. Right. Just seeing it differently.
Katie
Well, yeah, I think a lot of it. I mean, I feel like most people would not be into the idea of eating a fish head, but I bet 99% of those people have not had one also. So I get the impression that the negative opinion of a lot of pieces of fish, basically every piece of fish that's not the filet, is not because they've had it and dislike it, but just because the idea of fishy bits doesn't sound particularly appetizing to people. But I get the impression that if people tried more, they probably would like more.
April
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm of the opinion that if you're killing a fish, it's your responsibility to use it properly.
Katie
Yeah. And I'm hoping that considering your, I feel like this might make you uncomfortable, but your status within the fishing industry, I feel like there might be a lot of problematic areas of that sentence, but with how well known you are. I'm hoping that there might be some anglers out there who become more comfortable with the idea of keeping fish. I don't keep most of the fish I catch, but I do keep quite a few every summer. And sometimes I feel a little uncomfortable telling people that just because I feel like there's just such, especially in the fly fishing world, such an almost taboo around it at times. So I'm hoping that there's kind of more of a push to, as long as it's within reason and in a fishery that can handle it to go ahead and keep a couple of fish. And, in some fisheries, I'm sure that would even benefit the fish that are there.
April
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I hope so. Right. Like I feel like it's this newer thing of the poo poo of keeping your fish. A lot of this comes down to how we're raised, right? So if we're brought up keeping our fish, it's not that strange to us. Um, but I feel like a lot of the people who are really against it are either on fisheries that just simply can't handle having fish taken because those do exist, or they're people who don't eat fish, or they're people who are pretty new to it, and they just never even know that that was a thing, that once upon a time, we all kept our fish. In the West Coast, a lot of us start as, like in the Pacific Northwest, a lot of us start as salmon anglers. So it's really in us to bring our fish home. And yeah, I think that we need to start opening up our eyes just a little bit, especially in certain fisheries. There are lakes where you're not doing anyone any favors by releasing that fish back. Or hatchery steelhead, for example. Don't go home and feel good about yourself when you put a hatchery fish back in the water. You're doing exactly the opposite of what that fish is there for. So I think a little bit of education goes a long way. And that's why I'd also want to say there are some fisheries where I would highly suggest that you don't take fish out of those rivers. But I also would then turn around and say, if that's the case and they're so sacred, maybe we shouldn't be fishing for them at all. Because at the end of the day, there's also the potential that there could be fatality involved with something like wild steelhead. That's a constant battle for me. It's like there's salmon in the river. I can catch one and bring it home and it all makes sense. But there's wild steelhead, numbers aren't great. Like on a year where the numbers aren't great. If I take one, Is it worth it? So it's just a constant struggle and a constant, not struggle, but a constant balancing act. And I think we all go through our own stages of that question when it comes time to whether keeping or releasing a fish.
Katie
Yeah. I think that's an ethical conundrum that I don't know if anyone will ever quote unquote solve. I feel like it comes down to personal decisions. And I agree with you that there's some fish that I deem, I'm not able to keep this fish it's just too valuable and then I do question myself like well why did I come out here and stick a hook in his face for fun then at that point but and then and it comes down to well if if no one fishes recreationally then no one will be there to care for the resource so it's just like a kind of vicious cycle of ethics that I don't think there's ever really a way to get to the bottom of it and it at that point it just becomes everyone's personal decisions of of what they think is best but I agree that for something like a put and take fishery where there's steelhead being placed in a river specifically to be caught and harvested, then there's no real reason not to keep it and bring it home for your family to enjoy.
April
Absolutely. And I think one of the reasons we'll never get to the bottom of this whole catch and release debate and hooks and mouth and selfish and all that is because it is just so darn personal. And so for me, because I totally admit at the end of every single steelhead year. I'm like, man, I don't, I'm not going to go. I just, it's not like today I'm not going to go out because I can't keep it. I've, you know, it's not even a matter of me being like, oh, I've caught enough fish to last me the year. It's just, I get through this stage where at the end of the season, I just feel like I've, I've got what I needed out of the experience in the season that I don't need to risk any more fish. But the reason why I say it's personal is that there are times in everyone's life, and it doesn't matter whether you're a man, woman, child, new parent, whatever, where you'll struggle. Maybe it's right now for people listening. Maybe you've lost your job or you've been stuck inside or you're in Victoria and you're stuck in this crazy curfew and you can't leave your house even like to go shopping. Sometimes we just need to be reminded of what it feels like to be alive again. And so if that means that for that person at that stage in their journey, or for me personally, that I have to go down to the river to feel alive again, to catch that steelhead, to remember what it feels like to fight for your life or to fight for something or to hold something in your hands that might not be here forever, or to hold something in your hands that is so incredibly natural and special. And then at the end of the day, really remind me why I'm going to fight for that fish till the day that I die. And it means that I've caught a few steelhead in a year to be able to bring me to that point, then so be it. But again, it's personal. And that's why we can't judge somebody. I always kind of get a kick out of it. I admit I don't post my fish pictures these days just because I just kind of got sick to death of being the poster child of like grip and grin photos. And I just didn't want to be that person anymore. And I just don't feel like I need to post pictures of every fish these days. But every once in a while, I'd post a steelhead and someone would do the usual whatever, why are you catching and releasing the usual debate. And while I don't respond in my head, it's like, because listen, here you bastard. I was so down and out and had totally forgotten why he was even fighting for this fish, but this particular fish has just helped me to save God knows how many fish because you can be guaranteed that I'm going to be first in line at every single meeting that needs their support. So it's personal and that's why we shouldn't judge each other. Yeah, just that's all, I guess, if I had to summarize what it comes down to.
Katie
At that point, it just comes down to if it's legal and if the biologists have deemed it appropriate to do, then you can't really assume anyone's reason for doing what they're doing. And as long as it's not egregious or sending a terrible message out to people or against the law, then I feel like you kind of just have to sit back and assume that people are doing things for the right reasons. And it's overall going to be positive for the fishery.
April
Yeah. And look, if it's that the people who are catching 10 million fish, because it's all about numbers right now, which does admittedly make my skin crawl now, And at the end of the day, if I wasn't that person back then, I wouldn't be doing all the things that I do for fish now. So we just have to try to look at it open with an open mind as hard as it is sometimes.
Katie
Yeah. And everyone goes through their own personal, it sounds corny, but like their own journey, you know, where everyone's going to pass through that phase where they want to catch as many fish as possible when they first start fishing. And I feel like most people end up on the other side of that, where it kind of goes past that and becomes something else.
April
Exactly. Katie, give me one second. Just have to grab Colby. He's right at the door and he's going to be very noisy. I'll be right back.
Katie
Yeah, no worries.
April
Okay.
Katie
I actually only had one other thing I wanted to kind of touch on before we wrap up. I don't want to take up too much of your time. And this is actually something that just came up on your, I think it's your last episode of Anchored, one that maybe came out a couple of days ago. But it was something that when you said it, it really hit home for me. And I wanted to bring it up again because you were asking it in the context of your, what your guest's answer was. And I'm really curious to hear kind of your point of view on it, but you mentioned that there was a day that you got up and you were going to go fishing and you had a moment where you're like, I just want to drink my coffee at home and not go. And you all, you, I think you maybe described it as you almost had like a identity crisis where you're like, but I'm supposed to want to go fishing. Why don't I want to go? And this is something that has happened to me maybe in the past year or two, a couple of times. And it was something that I've struggled with a lot and have kind of actively worked to make myself okay with. But I wanted to hear what, just kind of what your thoughts are on it, if you wanted to expand on it at all and talk about how you've kind of come to terms with that as your identity as a fisherman and whether you've worked through that.
April
Yeah. I mean, I go through them all the time. And thankfully I'm now old enough to be able to know my identity. Like I definitely know who I am. When I was speaking to Jim McLennan, that's that episode that we were talking about that in, I was still in my twenties at the time when he was writing, when he was my editor. And that was when I wrote that article. And I was on the Thompson and it was so bloody cold. And I identified myself on the Thompson as somebody who couldn't get enough and was out there in like minus 12 picking ice out of my guides because that's really where I cut my teeth as an angler in my early twenties, especially. And I, all of a sudden for the first time ever, I just wasn't keen to go out in the cold. And I really started questioning, you know, who I was at the time. I never really recovered from that trip. I always, I accepted, I embraced the change. I looked deeper into myself and realized that I was going through that change because I no longer felt the need to prove to myself that I was a solid angler. At that point I knew. And what I, what I really, the big revelation for me was, okay, well, why on earth was I fishing so hard then? I thought I was fishing this hard because I wanted to catch lots of fish and maybe I was, but I, there was also part of me that was like, yeah, but you're also fishing this hard because you want to prove to yourself that you can catch a lot of fish. So both of those things kind of just weaned, you know, they both slowly faded a little bit, to me, just wanting to enjoy the whole experience, which I think is a pretty natural progression, but, it, it never, it never went away. And every time that I think that I have had a quote unquote identity crisis, I discover a fishery that just brings me back to life. And it can be as simple as this, like, here's an example. It's funny because one of my fishing buddies is substantially younger than me. Catherine Laflamme is a lot younger than me. I met her when she was, and took her under my wing when she was like 14, but she's just turned into like a sister. And she was still really gung-ho. And this was a few years ago at my place on the bulk lead. She was like, come on, come on. Like, let's go. We got to fish the bulk lead. And I just wasn't that into it. And I started to feel like the old woman, right? It was like, you go, I'll come out later. And then all of a sudden I was like, okay, well, she's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to go explore the unnamed river down the road that we've never fished, that I know there's fishing. And all of a sudden I was like a little kid again. We went and I was like excited, one more corner, one more cast. Oh, come on. I know it's getting dark, but come on, come on, let's go. And the next day I was like, let's get our rafts and let's do this crazy ass exciting trip. And she was like, what's happened to you? You're like a kid all over again. And all it took was just going to a different river. So a lot of it is just, it's not that you're having, you're a different person as such, even though we are all different people every day of our lives. Right. But sometimes it's just a matter of changing it up or really trying to identify what it is that excites you. Like for me in that moment on the Thompson, I realized that it wasn't the steelhead that got me going. It was the adventure about what I was going to find out there. And I just seen everything on the bulk. I was just over it. I didn't need to catch any more fish. I'd already had my moment of being reignited and excited about saving steelhead. I didn't need to see another angler float by me. What I needed to see was, I don't know, moose poop or I wanted to maybe have an encounter with a bear by accident. I wanted to flush out grouse and have them scare the life out of me. I wanted to run my raft down rapids and just be a little bit more wild. All of a sudden, was brought back to life again, just by switching up the fishery. So, you know, in the stage that you're going through, especially in your late twenties. And I mean, I'm not one to speak on, I don't have that much experience in life, but I do have 10 years on you. And I can honestly tell you that this will not be the first time that you start to question yourself why you're here. What are you doing here? Like even in the industry, there was a, there was a major, probably five year time slot in my career in the quote unquote industry where I was like, what am I doing here? You guys hate me. Like I'm devoting my whole life to you to make this better, to try to archive things, stories, to try to teach people, to try to get more people into it, which is what you all wanted me to do in the first place. And you hate me. What am I even doing here for you guys? And you know, and that's since now I just tell myself, I'm not even, take it to me, I'm not even in the fishing industry these days because it just was too painful for me to constantly be feeling like I wasn't wanted there. So whether it's the fishing industry or the fishery or yourself in the mirror in the morning before you go out, there's always going to be times you're like, what am I even doing here? And that is an opportunity to either be really discouraged and walk away or an opportunity to look at it and take a deep dive into yourself, which I think we all need to do regularly to become better people just to grow. So it's, it's like this. And I'm going to, excuse me, equate it to my daughter. Every once in a while, she goes through this crazy phase for like a couple of days where she's just a bitch, right? Like she's just wild. And I could look at it and be annoyed or I could look at it and go, oh, she's going through a development. This is a mega development. And tomorrow she won't be the same. She's growing right now. and being able to work with that in a positive way, right? And we're the same way. We go through this slump, whether it's depression or confusion or bitchiness or whatever, maybe we withdraw. Maybe we just question every single thing that we're doing, but it's all just development and it's compiled to the point where when the next day you're going to be different. And that's a good thing. I think we should embrace that because we can't become better for not constantly growing, right?
Katie
Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm glad to hear you say that because when you brought it up on your podcast, it was just an immediate, like I was like cleaning the house when I was listening to it or something. And I suddenly like just tuned in because I was like, this is, it was like I had felt it, but I didn't know how to express it. And when you said that, I was like, oh my God, I'm not the only person who's had this, I don't want to call it a crisis. Cause I don't feel like I've ever gotten to that point. And I also have intentionally, like I, as much as I love doing this podcast and I have a fly fishing blog, I intentionally don't want to be part of the industry. I'm not partnered with anybody and I don't make any money. I don't want to be tied down to anybody at this point. I'm trying to keep this as just a hobby. I keep that in my back pocket as a, I can stop this whenever I want. That way I don't get overwhelmed or feel like I'm somehow locked into this or that it has to be who I am as my identity. And I almost wonder if social media has contributed to this. I bet that we're not the only people that have had a similar thing with whatever activity it is, be it fishing or climbing or hiking or hunting, where someone suddenly feels like they've created a persona for themselves that they almost feel like they're guilty if they're trying to escape from it or not participate in it. And I do wonder social media has kind of contributed to that where people, everyone has their profile, what they're trying to portray to the world. And I think it's healthy to remember that you're not, you don't owe anybody a specific type of you or what you've decided that you want to pursue. And it's okay to change things around. So it's nice to hear that you have been in the same position as somebody who's been in it a lot longer and dealt with a lot more than I have to hear that encouragement?
April
Yeah. Well, I think there's two parts to that too. First of all, I think it is part of getting older. And that's one of the things that my older guests have taught me is same with them. They were once super gung-ho too. And now they just, maybe they're still gung-ho, but just differently. But the other part to it is social media. Yes. But I think more than that, it's documentation. And I found this with myself, just even not from a persona stance, Like I'm going to grow and you people, like not you people, but like people can either take it or leave it. Either you can follow with me or you don't have to, it's fine either way. I'm still going to grow up. But what I see as a real problem, at least in my career, just I can only speak on my own experiences is standing for something. So that's when the problem for me is standing for something and having it be documented, whether it be podcasts, social media, just the internet, just documentation, right? And people being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, but you said, and you're like, yes, I did say that, but I said that 15 years ago and now I'm saying this. So we do get stuck in that a lot. And I can tell you, even myself, I still get stuck in that where I'm like, ooh, do I really want to say I'm fishing and egg sucking leech because I kind of did an entire television series about not fishing them. And, and I'm always terrified of the, but you said, it's like, yes, I did. Well, I just like
Katie
at one point I was, I was like catch and release or nothing else. Like that's the way to go. And I've, I've since changed my mind on that, but you know, someone can bring something up from years ago and be like, well, this is how you're supposed to be.
April
Yes. And it's hard because as women of our word or like, you know, it sounds like you are as well. You want to be like, yes. And what I say, I mean, but there's nothing embarrassing or shameful of growing up. You know, we just, it happens to us all and we change and, and that's great thing. So it sucks. And yes, I may have said certain things and you may have said certain things or portrayed certain images, but who we were then doesn't mean that's who we are today. And, and it's important that when we realize how much it sucks to be put in that box, that we look at other people who, you know, before we judge them as well. And, and, and just think twice before we judge each other, because we all are going to change and at some point feel stuck in a box.
Katie
Well, I think that is a wonderful sentiment to end on. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your thoughts and Anchored Outdoors and everything you've got going on. Just before we wrap up, do you just want to share where people can find you? If they want to sign up for your classes, get a hold of you, website, anything like that?
April
Yeah. Well, first off, I would like to thank you for letting me word vomit all over you. Any, any time I don't get to do a lot of the talking. So when I do, it's like, Oh, here we go. Take the tap out or take the plug out. But, yeah, you can find me, and, and then what we're talking about at anchored outdoors.com. I just offered a loyalty discount code. I don't believe in discounting brands, but I do believe in, helping people out, especially during these times is loyalty code 20. I believe I don't want to throw off my internet connection by opening my, my, website, but I believe it's loyalty code 20. If that doesn't work, just let me know. But if you put in loyalty code 20 in either of the packages, you get 20% off, quietly between all of us listening here, the all inclusive package is going to be disappearing later this year. Uh, cause we're going to be putting more focus on selling classes on their own. But if you get into an all-inclusive package now, you'll remain on it forever if you'd like. So if you would like to have all access and not have to buy classes individually, I would advise doing that now before November 50th, before things change forever.
Katie
Perfect. And maybe if you want to just check that afterward to verify, I can just put it in the show notes too, so people can get it from there if they're listening to this after the fact or something.
April
Yeah, great. Sounds good.
Katie
All right, April. Well, I won't take up any more of your time. I'm sure you've got a busy day ahead of you, but I really can't thank you enough for coming on to chat and I really enjoyed talking to you.
April
Likewise. Thank you very much.
Katie
All right. And that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks and you can find me on social media under my name Katie Burgert on Go Wild or at fishuntamed on Instagram. I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone!
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