Ep 25: The Next Generation of Anglers, with Susan Thrasher
Susan Thrasher is a guide and owner of Southern Brookies Fly Fishing, an outfitter based in Tennessee. She’s also the author of a new book, Thrasher’s Fly Fishing Guide. This is a great all-around guide book for anyone interested in fly fishing, from the beginner to the advanced angler. In this episode, Susan and I chat about her background, what inspired her to write her book, and the next generation of fly fishermen. With a fairly high barrier to entry, fly fishing can be intimidating to try, so we discuss resources to get started if you’re new, and how to be a good instructor for a child, partner, or friend who’s learning.
Instagram: @southernbrookies
Facebook: SouthernBrookies
Website: www.southernbrookies.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 25 of the Fish Untamed podcast. You may have noticed a bit of a different sound starting off the show today. I decided to play around with the intro and the music a little bit. I feel like I'm in enough episodes and now that I'm getting a better feel for what I like. So yeah, I just decided to change that up. The content of the show will still be the same as always. Just wanted a little bit of a different sound at the start. As for today's episode, I got a chance to sit down with Susan Thrasher, who is the author of Thrasher's Fly Fishing Guide, which I know we mentioned a little bit in the show, you know, the release date might be a little bit affected by coronavirus, but as of right now, she's given me word that it should be out on June 9th. So actually, by the time this episode airs, I believe her book should be fully out and ready to order. And in this episode, we do talk a bit about her book. It's kind of an all-purpose fly fishing book. You know, if you're a complete beginner, you'll be able to start there from scratch. And if you're more of an intermediate or advanced fisherman, you can still probably get quite a few tips out of it. It's a pretty complete book. But then we also kind of wanted to have the body of the conversation be a bit about getting the next generation of anglers into fishing. And this could mean children. We do talk about kids specifically and how to get kids excited about fishing. But also just, you know, teenagers or adults. There's plenty of people out there who've always wanted to try fly fishing and have never gotten the chance. But it feels like there's a bit of a barrier to entry for a lot of people. So we talk about how, you know, if you're a new angler, some ways that you can get into it, some resources you can use. And then also if you are someone who already knows how to fish, but you aren't quite sure how to help maybe your friends or your family get into it. She gives us some tips about how to approach that. If you're trying to teach your partner versus your kids versus your friends. Just lots of helpful tips for bringing the next generation of anglers into the sport. so without further ado here is my chat with Susan Thrasher all right we can just dive right in then okay good deal so yeah I usually just start off by getting a little bit about your fishing background how'd you get started in fly fishing?
Susan
well I've been fishing as long as I can remember you know with my dad in fact some of my earliest memories of fishing with him. But it wasn't until probably about a little over 20 years ago, he asked me, I was living in Virginia Beach at the time, and he said, hey, next time you're home, which is East Tennessee is home, would you like to go fly fishing? And I said, yeah, I'll give it a try. And my dad's a retired pastor. And one of the guys from the church had said, you know, when Susan comes home, we'll take you out on the South Holston in Bristol and give you a lesson and we'll go. So I did it. And my dad, he still tells me, he said, boy, you were pretty bad that day. He said, I felt sorry for your casting was awful. His wasn't any better, but he just laughs about it now. But I stuck with it. And even though I was slashing the water behind me and all, somehow I managed to catch fish. And I've told this story before. I walked in the kitchen that And my mother said, well, did you guys have fun? And I said, today changed my life. I want to learn every single thing there is to learn about fly fishing. I said, I just found it was so intriguing and you had to pay such close attention. And so anyway, that's what kicked off many, many years following that of learning and then actually leaving one career and starting another. So it really did literally change my life.
Katie
Wow. It sounds a bit river runs through it. You know, with the preacher dad and the kids. So were you fishing for trout or would you grow up fishing for?
Susan
Yes. I was in the South Holston River, which is a really nice tailwater there in the Tri-City area. Bristol is a twin city, so half of it's on Virginia and part of it's on Tennessee. And we lived on the Tennessee side for a while and my parents live on the Virginia side of Bristol now. but South Holston is a really well-known trout stream in that area.
Katie
That's fun. I've been hearing more and more people from the southeastern states talking about some pretty good trout fishing down there, even though it's not, I think, what most people think of when they think of trout streams.
Susan
That area of the country is not what comes to mind.
Katie
Right.
Susan
It's not a fly fishing destination, but we'll just call it, it's one of those hidden gems.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, it might almost be better because as much as I've got plenty of great trout water around here, I mean, there's people coming in all the time to come fish the water, and I almost wish it was a little less known. Yeah, right. So maybe we won't spread the word so much. Well, now everyone knows. And so you've been guiding now for how many years?
Susan
I started the business in 2004. So, yeah, so quite a while. I can't believe that it's already that long. But, yeah, I hung out the shingle in 2004. I was still working my full-time job. I was a civil engineer and did that for many, many years. And so, yeah, I just, I got to a point where I really wanted to do the fly fishing guiding and instruction full-time. And so tried to come up with a plan on how I could do that. And was fortunate enough to do that about five years ago.
Katie
And did you take any formal instruction to become the guide?
Susan
I did. I went through, I don't know if you've heard of Real Women out in Victor, Idaho. Laurie Ann Murphy is the founder of that. And she has, in fact, she's still doing this now, a program for guides that want to come through. It's a Real Women Guide School. And you can go for a week-long program. And, you know, basically, if you don't know how to row a drift boat, they have drift boats available. You go through a class and learning how to row, you know, all the different, I guess, guide etiquette. You go through the casting. Basically, if you want to learn to be a guide, that's a place to go because you can go through all the different aspects of it. And I mean, it really helped to, I guess, put me on the right track when I got into or set my mind to the fact that that's what I wanted to do. And then also went through the Wolf School of Fly Fishing. That's Joan Wolf School there in the Catskills in Roscoe or Blue Beach, New York. And so I went through the casting school and then went through the instructor school. And then I was fortunate enough to actually get on staff as an intern. And then, yeah, this will be my 15th year of actually teaching there each spring. And so I was really fortunate with that. So I guess if I look back, my two true mentors would be Laurie M. Murphy and Joan Wolf. And so that's pretty fortunate couple of people to have on either side of you.
Katie
Oh, yeah.
Susan
For sure.
Katie
It's a good start. I assume that that one you mentioned in Idaho, that's women only based on the name. Well, I know that they in their guiding, you know, because it's an outfitter.
Susan
And so it's men and women and they do a lot of couple type things. But as far as the guide school, it was a women only program when I went through it. Yes.
Katie
Now, did you choose that deliberately because it was women only?
Susan
Well, I had been fishing out in the Middle Provo River in Salt Lake City, or just outside of Salt Lake. It was in a little town called Heber City. And I happened to be in Salt Lake because, as my previous job as a civil engineer, I had a project there. And it kept me out there traveling back and forth for about a year. And when I was fishing in the middle of Provo, I ran into this fella named Jim Smith, who actually, I would say, was my very first beginning fly fishing mentor. And he really took a liking to me. And so each time I went out to the river, he showed me a little bit, you know, another technique or, you know, gave me some helpful tips. And one time during our session together, he said, have you ever heard of Laurie Ann Murphy or of Joan the Wolf? And I said, no, I hadn't. He said, well, you have to look them up because those are two of the best. And so after he said that, I just happened to be going out to Jackson Hole. So I called and booked a trip with Laurie Ann. And, you know, I bent her ear the whole day on the drip boat just saying, tell me everything you know. And that's when she said, if you really want to go and do this, you know, guide thing, then you should come out and go through the guide school. And so that's how that all turned out. Okay. Yeah. So just fate. Yes, it was. Absolutely. No question about it.
Katie
And so at what point did you decide that you wanted to write this book? So we can kind of dive into the book at this point. I've got a copy here so I can reference if needed. But it's called Thrashers Fly Fishing Guide. yes and so what what kind of inspired you to want to write the book?
Susan
well to be honest with you I had no intention or desire ever ever to write a book never wanted to and I just happened to be at a fly fishing meeting I was the speaker and in northern at the northern Kentucky fly fishers and after the the club meeting this fellow walked up to me his name was Ron Ellis and he said have you ever thought about writing a book and I said nope never I said I've written a few articles but yeah just really don't have any interest in doing that and he said well I happen to have a friend that's a publisher and if you stick around an extra day I'll introduce you he has a a a cut like a bookstore that has a coffee shop associated with it and they have great donuts and I said well I'll stick around for the coffee and donuts and so I went the next morning and then the more they talked about it I don't know I was a little bit intrigued and so you know I but I think my the the hesitancy I really had was there's so many great fly fishing books and and stuff already out there I thought you know, what could I possibly add, you know, that hasn't already been talked about. And I came up with the thought, I started, I co-founded a women's fly fishing club back in 2007 here in Nashville called the Music City Fly Girls. And so I thought, well, maybe I could tell a story about all of our fly girls adventures and different trips that we have, and then incorporate that into an actual instructional book as well. So each one of the chapters contains, you know, something about the way that I got started, a story about that, and then it just leads into the instructional piece of it. So that's how it started. And yeah, it just materialized into what you're holding, which is amazing to me.
Katie
And I really like that approach of kind of incorporating your own stories. I think, you know, especially for people who at least have a little bit of a grasp on fly fishing and maybe they want to pick up the guide to just maybe learn a couple extra tips or some more advanced techniques. It can get a little dry just reading about things that are just plain instructional, especially if you do know some of the basics already. So having that kind of narrative storyline throughout as well, where you kind of feel like you're connecting with your group and you as an author, I think that helps it flow more like an actual book that you want to read through instead of something you want to just consult when you need an answer to something.
Susan
Oh, well, I'm glad you think that. I mean, that's the approach that I was trying to take. And I'm a big believer in having memory aids, you know, something that will trigger or really stick in your mind. And so with each chapter, it seems like what I've tried to do is make it to where if you can't remember something about, you know, the size, let's say the size of your tippet is 3x larger or smaller than 7x. I try to give some memory aids or some story associated with it that you can kind of go back in your memory bank and say, oh, yeah, that's the answer to that. So anyway, and I'm hoping that the book will appeal not only to beginners and certainly not only to women. I mean, it's a book. It's really a book for everyone. So a beginner just starting out is going to learn a lot, I believe. Even if you aren't a fly fisherman or even if you have no desire to be a fly fisherman, I think just some of the stories in there are pretty interesting and some can be entertaining. So even somebody that's not into fishing could enjoy it. And I do have a couple of chapters in there that I believe even the most advanced fishermen could learn something as well.
Katie
Yeah, you have some pretty fun topics too. I'm only, I think I'm, let me see where I am. I'm on like chapter five right now, just reading through. But I've like glanced through at some of the other things you cover. And you have some pretty fun sections like, you know, how to go to the bathroom outside if you've never done it or, you know, how to go on a guided trip and tell the guide you need to take a pit stop and right and also I noticed that you've included a couple sections that are more about the the overall culture of fly fishing so it's not strictly here's how to cast here's how to choose a line here's the different types of flies but there's some there's some sections like here's fly fishing etiquette or what to expect when you go on a guided trip things like that that are more of like the soft skills I guess of fly fishing instead of the hardcore here's how you do it which like I said I think a book full of nothing but that can get a little bit dry especially if maybe you don't know anything about fly fishing and seeing a chart of line weights can can kind of just turn you off but having a little bit more of the content related to what's it like to fly fish you know who who are you going to meet when you fly fish what how should you behave when you do it like those kinds of things I think can keep people more engaged if some of the hardcore technical aspects can get a little overwhelming at times.
Susan
Yep. And I have to actually have to credit a lot of my clients for quite a bit of the subject matter, because there were questions that would be asked that I knew that people were feeling like, I know that this is a dumb question, but we were like driving to, I'll give you an example. We were driving to go out to fish, and one of my clients and good friends, her name is Susan Dahl, she's been out fishing with me many times. She said, I know that this is going to sound stupid, but I don't know what a tailwater is. I've heard the term tailwater, and I've, you know, I've got freestone. I just don't know what some of those terms are. Can you just go through and describe them, you know, a spring creek, and I thought, yes, I can do that, and then I got to thinking, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people that don't know what that is. And so I dedicated a whole chapter just to that, you know, talking about the various bodies of water. And so that was one example, but a lot of my clients have asked questions like that, that like you said, are on more of the softer skills, but there's still questions. And sometimes people are, are kind of embarrassed to even ask, you know
Katie
I think everyone has one or two of those things that they it's kind of like when you meet someone at a party and they tell you their name but then you realize an hour later that you forget it but it's too late to ask and I feel like there's some of those in fly fishing where you've been doing it for a year and you've been hearing the same term but you're like I've never actually learned what that is but I feel embarrassed to admit that I've never actually bothered to learn what that is for me for the longest time for me that was a point fly I didn't know what a point fly was but I didn't want to ask right and I'm sure everybody has like one or two of those embarrassing things that they're just like it's too late I'm too I'm too far into this to admit that I don't know what this is. And I noticed you have a glossary at the back, which is also really helpful because one of the things that I usually encourage people to do when they're first getting started is to learn a couple basic terms before you try to learn. Because if you try to dive into like a video or something like that and you don't know what the words they're using mean, it's going to be kind of hard to follow along. So I thought that was really helpful that you included that glossary. So if people need to look up a term, some of it's slang and some of its actual definitions of, you know, what is backing, what is a fly line, what is a leader, things like that.
Susan
Right. Well, you know, one of the things when I was putting the glossary together, you know, obviously I have things like, you know, tippet or hook bend or, you know, something that's, you know, an actual reference to either a piece of gear or something like that. But I got to thinking about the slang terms like you know if you talk to a fisherman a fly fisherman a non-fly fisherman and you say I'm going to go sling some meat well they're going to say what what does that mean they might hear something bad that's right yeah so I decided well I'll go ahead and put in some of those terms you know that we hear like that
Katie
well what I also found funny about it it's like I noticed what like you had like tight lines in there which obviously most fly fishermen know that means but you also have a definition after each one and I just it's funny reading through some of those you know as someone who knows what they mean because they're very basic like this is what you say to somebody when you want to wish them good luck and it's just yeah it's like a very basic for someone who knows what it means it's it's kind of funny to read through but I can totally see how it'd be useful to do a new angler
Susan
right yeah I tell you one of the things in the chapters that I found most challenging is that, you know, if you, as you're learning, you'll hear different, I guess, definitions or concepts, you know, so I guess that was one of the hardest things to approach, like what the true definition, you know, of maybe, I don't know, a different type of a fly, You know, whether it's an imitative fly or, you know, a natural, you know, one that's, you know, a real representation. And so there are so many different definitions and there's nothing, you know, some may be completely opposite of what you may have learned. And so trying to be able to capture it, I decided, well, I'm going to give what my best interpretation of that is. And then I think what happens is when you do that, then people will go out and try to find, okay, let me see if I can prove that person wrong or let me see what the other, because I think that's what makes you a really, to me, a well-rounded fly fisher is if you can look at all the different pieces and parts and the ways that people teach. I happen to follow the Joan Wolf School of casting, but there are so many other great casters out there and styles, you know, Lefty Craig and others. And I think knowing all of those different types and techniques is just going to help make you a more well-rounded fly fisher.
Katie
And I think that's something that's kind of prevalent across, I'm just going to say like outdoor activities because, you know, that's what I'm most well-versed in. but there's there's sometimes almost a fear that you know I don't want to tell someone how to do something for fear that they take it as gospel and then they hear somewhere else you know a different way to do it and that's not just in fly fishing like I said it's it's all over the place but that's another reason I actually like reading through books like this one kind of like a 101 guide because I like to kind of reaffirm things that I've thought because I do question myself you know you hear people who say things definitively like this is the only way to do something and you know then you go out do something differently and still catch fish and it it makes you realize that just because someone said the only way to do to rig a dry dropper is to do it this way and then you try a different way and it still works you know the fish aren't reading these books and and making sure that everyone's following the rules so I do like reading through books like this even though a lot of it may be basic because it just it just confirms like okay, that, you know, that seems like a solid piece of information that everyone has agreed on. And then also just reading through a variety to see how people do disagree. Maybe you say, you know, here's the proper way to do something, but someone else says a different way. And neither one of you is necessarily wrong. It's just, you know, you have your different preferences, and it's good to have that, you know, wide variety kind of diversify.
Susan
Right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. In fact, on one of my chapters, it's on euronymphing. And there are so many different approaches, you know, to building a leader and a Euro nymph leader. And I just, I make the comment, you know, there's not a Euro nymphing police out there. So you can, whatever's going to work for you, you know, you can just, you can mix and match. And, you know, it doesn't really matter, you know. It's really just a guide on to get you started. And then you can customize it to however fit your needs.
Katie
So sure. And you know, there's people out there who really want to be the Euro-nymphing police. Yeah, probably so. You're probably right. But yeah, I thought so. If we're moving on toward kind of the main body of our conversation, I think I think this would be a good time to do that, because I think the the overall gist I got from your book, and I hope that that's come through so far in our conversation is that it's just a very welcoming book, especially for beginners. I and there's plenty of nuggets that more advanced anglers can utilize, but it's still a very welcoming book. You wouldn't feel intimidated picking this up as a first-timer and think that you're being talked down to, which I think is one of the big deterrents for people when they're first getting started is they get the suggestion, I need to walk into a fly shop and I'm going to be terrified because I have no idea what to ask. They're going to think down on me. And I think that this book is a good example of how to kind of delicately present that information to someone who's new and make it seem fun and welcoming instead of kind of a turnoff to the sport. And what we're hoping to talk about today is how to get beginners into fly fishing, whether it's adults or children. But I think that's kind of a good segue talking about this book, because I think that's a good example of how to get people into it. Yes. Yeah. OK, great. So, yeah, we can dive right in. I don't know if you have anything that you wanted to start with. If not, I can just dive right in with some questions I had for you about getting beginners into it.
Susan
Well, I will start by saying, just like you said, when people are first starting out, and I have people come to my beginning all-day class here. We go from 9 until 3, and a lot of times when people first show up, even though it's a small group of six people that I'll take in the class, people seem nervous, you know, when they arrive. And one of the first things I try to do is just say, look, the first time I ever went out, my dad said I was terrible. And so I just try and let them know, you know, I was at, I was at the exact same spot where they were. And, you know, more, I just hate feeling intimidated by anything. And so if I can work with someone to, to be positive and reassuring and make them feel comfortable and, you know, that it's not going to matter if they get a tangled up mess the first few times they cast out. To me, that's what it's all about, you know.
Katie
What do you think is the biggest reason that people are scared to try fly fishing, even if they've done other types of fishing before? Like, what do you think is that barrier? Is it, you know, being worried that people are going to judge them? Is it just the idea of the unknown? Like, what keeps people from giving it a try?
Susan
I think it's, you know, fly fishing has, I think, maybe a little bit of a reputation for being kind of a snooty, wealthy person's, you know, uppity kind of, you know, a sport. You know, and I think in some, maybe it started out that way some. And, you know, there's a lot of tradition, you know, that goes behind it. Maybe that's part of it. But it certainly doesn't have to be that way. But I think, you know, that might be part of it. And then anytime you're starting out with something new, I think there's always a little bit of trepidation. Yeah, so sure.
Katie
Do you think it's getting better with that kind of uppity mentality, the snooty personality of fly fishermen that we have the reputation of? Like, do you think that's getting better from the perception of someone who does not fly fish? Like, do you think that with more women getting involved and other minorities and kids and kind of that, there's been a push over the past couple of years, I think, to get more people involved, not just the stereotypical old white guy?
Susan
I think so. Because I believe what's happened is there's a lot of fly shops now that realize that women are really going to be and have become, you know, a big part of their market. And so, you know, if you're going to sell to a big part of that emerging market, you aren't going to just ignore them when they come in or make them feel stupid. So in that regard, I think that it is getting better, that they are trying to be more welcoming. I have definitely seen a difference when I've gone into shops. you know, when I'm out of town, and someone has no clue who I am, and I just walk in. There have been times where I was, you know, in the past where I was just completely ignored, and I could feel it and tell it. And I thought, wow, that's, you know, that is not the way to do business. But I felt confident enough in my skills at that point. You know, it just was an aggravation. I couldn't believe and, you know, that they were they were acting that way and not they wouldn't get the sale. But since then, boy, I have found, I have just found that folks have really bent over backwards to help out. And then they get really excited when they know, oh, you already know a little bit about, you know, fishing, and then they just want to talk. And then sometimes they're talking so much, it's hard to get any shopping done. So either way, the sale might not happen, but one's for a good reason. Yeah, but actually, it's a very good point. And I think things have definitely gotten a lot better. You can still go to parts of the country where there is still a lot of snootiness, but that's the case with anything, right? Oh, sure.
Katie
Yeah. And one thing I've heard, this is, I heard it in regards to the hunting industry, but I'm sure it applies to fly fishing as well, or fishing in general, is that the benefit of getting more women into the sport, because they always talk about, you know, we need to get more women into the sport. And there's, there's kind of a question like well why do we need to you know we should be welcoming to whoever wants to do it but is there any real benefit to you know trying to force the stats to kind of align better between men and women but within the hunting industry they they've talked about how when when dad hunts it's often just dad going hunting but when mom hunts the whole family goes you know it becomes it becomes a family activity and I could see the same thing being true for fishing where if if dad fishes not that he you know not trying to say that men will never take their kids or anything. But if mom fishes, suddenly it's, hey, everyone, let's go to the park together and like go fishing. It becomes a family activity instead of someone just going off by themselves. So I could see that being a real benefit to getting more women specifically involved in fly fishing. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good point. Do you have any tips, specific tips for someone who is just getting started and maybe doesn't know where to start or or does feel intimidated by that snootiness that may be perceived?
Susan
Sure. So I offer gift certificates. And a lot of times at Christmas or birthdays or whatever, you know, people will call and say, you know, they want to get a gift certificate for someone. And did I have any ideas of maybe should it be a guide trip? Should it be a casting lesson? You know, what should it be? And so I always tell them, you know, of course, I would love to take them on a guided trip, but I think that they're going to get the most benefit if they go through a lesson first, because otherwise you're going to spend a big part of your time on the boat or even, you know, on a wade trip, learning some of the basics. And if you just take an hour or two out by a casting pond and you learn a little bit about the terms, you learn a little bit about casting, then just that little bit of time that you spend in advance of your trip, you're going to have a much, much better time. So I always recommend when they say, you know, where do you want to start? I always recommend just taking a class. If you can, you know, take a lesson or a class first, and you're just going to have a much more enjoyable time when you go out for your actual guided trip.
Katie
Yeah, I agree. I know that a lot of guys, well, most guides are more than willing to take someone who's new to fly fishing on a guided trip. But like you said, if you, you know, if you're spending 500 bucks to go out for the full day, plus a tip, you don't want to be spending, you know, seven of your eight hours, just learning to get the fly on the water when, you know, the whole reasons to catch fish. I learned in a, in a grassy yard. And I think that's a great place for people to start because there's, there's no distraction of, I need to catch a fish right now. Cause there are no fish. Your, your sole focus is to cast the rod. I think that like, that was very beneficial to me, I think, to start not even on the water
Susan
right and I always I tell folks too you know they're anxious to go out and buy their equipment right away and you know I tell people it's so much better if you can either go through a class or if you can't go through a class go ahead and go on your trip but don't buy all of your gear ahead of time you know use whatever the guide has or go through a class where like in my own classes, I let people try out. That's one of the sessions that I have scheduled within the school is you're able to try out different weight rods and for different conditions. Like I have a rod that you would use if you're fishing up in the Smoky Mountains, that's a lighter weight rod to a mid-level size rod, five or a six weight, and then an ocean saltwater type for larger fish, maybe a 10 weight. And so they're able to feel the different grip sizes, the different flexes of the rods. Because I've had some people that have shown up for a class and they went out to, you know, wherever and bought a rod. And it was an eight weight rod, but they're going to do most of their fishing just in some small ponds and small rivers. Well, that's way too much, you know, for an eight weight rod to have to do that. But they didn't know any better. So I always tell folks, you know, wait until you know a little bit about the equipment and what you should get before you go right out and purchase it.
Katie
Now, what about for somebody who is not necessarily ready to drive a bunch of money on a guided trip? Like, say somebody does want to kind of practice on their own first, maybe using, like, books or online resources. Do you have any recommendations of where someone might go? And maybe the equipment, because at that point they would need to provide their own gear. Maybe some recommendations on where they would get their lessons and then what gear they would want to start with if they did just want to pick up a rod and maybe try casting in their backyard?
Susan
I would say if you're looking for an instructor, the first place that you can go is the Federation of Fly Fishers, FFI. You can take a look there. And that's, you know, you're going to have certified casting instructors. And so, and I can give you the information if you want to have that, you know, for your listeners. But they're listed by state and in the area where you are. So you know that you're getting a guide that's gone through the rigor, you know, of casting. So you can look up a certified caster that way to start out. And then as far as recommendations, I think looking at the beginning, instead of dropping a lot of money for a rod and reel, there are some really great quality products that are out there and packages. If you try to piecemeal and buy the rod, then you buy the reel, and then you've got to look at getting the backing on and then the line on and your leader and your tippet. If you look at getting an all-together package, there's some really great ones out there. I know, of course, Orvis has a starter package. Temple Fork has that. There's a company that I really enjoy working with that's out of Charlottesville, Virginia, Moonshine Rides. I'm a big fan of Moonshine. Redington has a really terrific package. So there are packages that you can get in your local shops or online that come all ready, assembled. Everything's there in the package. And then you can just go through the class and understand what you're doing and go out and fish. Now, if you don't have access, of course, you know, I'm going to recommend Joan Wolf's DVD. She has a terrific DVD that you can start from the very beginning and learn everything from how to hold the rod, you know, the grip, and just how to cast. And she does step-by-step where if you don't get it all, you know, you can go back to the first part of it and re-watch it. And I can tell you, when I first started out, I watched it over and over and over. So I can't recommend that one, you know, highly enough. So those are some of the first things I would suggest.
Katie
And one of the great things about fly fishing in particular is, like you said, those kind of pre-spooled combos. You know, it's not like other, I mean, I'm sure there's other things out there like it, but it's not that you spend a little bit of money and you get something that's not the best and then it breaks after a year and then you have to spend a bunch more money to upgrade. You know, I've bought several of those combos and I still use them all the time. Like a fly rod, there are better quality fly rods and lower quality fly rods, but at the end of the day, those lower quality fly rods will still catch fish and they're not going to just break and fall apart because they only cost $200 instead of $1,000. dollars. So it's not the same as some other hobbies where you might need to drop all the money once and get the right product. It's really doable to actually only spend a little bit of money and still get something that even once you're ready to upgrade, you're still going to be able to keep that original product and continue to use it. It's not going to fall apart and stop working. And like you said, the last thing you need when you're learning is how to need to tie a nail knot to attach your backing to your fly lining. You're just feeling so overwhelmed. It's like, that's not what you need your first day out.
Susan
Yeah, that's exactly right. And most of those packages actually come with a warranty. And you can get, I would say, for not much more than $200. And sometimes under $200, you can get a really nice package with everything that you need to get you going. So that's really not bad.
Katie
Yeah, for sure. All things considered, it's not that expensive to get into. It's expensive when you know you want to keep doing it and suddenly you want to buy everything you see. But you can get started easily for under $200 with everything you'll need to go start fishing in your local pond.
Susan
Yes. And I have people ask me all the time, especially after the class, okay, I love it. I love this day. I'm into it. I'm definitely hooked. Now what do I do? And I have written this out so many times in emails for people. I decided I'm going to put it in a chapter in a book. And this is what you absolutely need, you know, to get started. So there's must haves. And then there's a whole lot of, I just want to have it. Right. So like with everything. So I tried to really be specific on the must haves, you know, obviously you need the rod and the reel and your fly line, but then just for those accessories, you know, there's some things that you absolutely have to have you don't want to use your teeth to break out the line you need some nippers maybe that can be you know just some fingernail clippers but you absolutely have to have that so those kind of things I've tried to go through in detail in the book
Katie
Mhm. versus the the nice to have like you know a fly box is nice but at the end of the day I don't know if it was you in your book or if maybe I just read it recently that you know you can use an Altoids container to
Susan
yeah that was me I said that and I've I've put them on wine corks as well and those that works pretty well
Katie
and plus you get the wine you know
Susan
that's right, that’s exactly it that's right but you definitely don't need a tippet gauge you know it's not a must-have
Katie
I don't I still don't have a tippet gauge I just I just eyeball it there's some things I just don't want to carry around that's right I like to I like to keep it a little bit minimalist so at least when I do get more things I can get more fly boxes and stuff like that. Got to prioritize. Well, on the flip side, do you have any tips for someone who's looking to help other people get into fly fishing? So this has been more of a, if you want to get started, hear the resources you need. But one other challenging thing is, you know, maybe you've got some friends you want to take out, but you know, you as a guide, I think guiding is maybe 30% actually knowing how to catch fish and 70% knowing how to show others a good time, convey information well. Using your experience as a guide, what would you say to someone who really wants to get their friends involved and wants to make sure their friends have a good time and actually come out learning something instead of just being frustrated and throwing their rod on the ground and never wanting to go again?
Susan
Well, I would say if it's a husband and wife, spouses just really shouldn't teach each other, you know, or even honestly parents and kids. It can, you can get so frustrated and it seems like I've noticed this even with kids that I mean you definitely have to have patience and you know you can it's easy to lose patience with with people that you really love you know for whatever reason that is you know but if they actually go to an instructor you know at least first then you can help them out afterwards but if you're bound and determined and you really think that you can do it if you start to see people's eyes glazing over just leave them alone for a little while you know let them do something else or you know especially a kid you know if you can't expect to be teaching them for two hours if it's really hot or really cold you just have to make sure you know just to let them let them loose the other thing is if you if you are going to take them fishing I would say start out at a farm pond or maybe at a lake in a cove where you could catch a lot of bluegill. I've taken a lot of beginners out and they caught bluegill all day long and they were really, really hooked. And it's a great way to start. Once you start to feel, you know, the wiggle of the fish on the line, that's what's going to catch you. And then you just want to, you know, continue on. And then the next thing is you want to try trout and then you want to try some other species. But definitely starting out with bluegill because you can put a strike indicator and a simple fly and cast it out there and they're going to get the feel for how to fish under an indicator. Bluegill will also take woolly buggers and you know different types of streamers so you can show them the technique of how to strip in a streamer and they'll also take dry flies. So there are all three techniques in fly fishing from dry fly fishing to fishing under indicator with with nymphs to streamers you know you can teach a beginner and do it with with bluegill and so that would be my biggest recommendation you know right there is to start them off easy and where they're going to catch something
Katie
oh sure I could not agree more and talk about a fish that pulls above its weight you know the number of times I'm like oh I've got a monster on and then it's like a four inch bluegill and I like I thought I had a bass on because they they pull so hard for how small they are it's yeah that's right really hard to get sick of catching them
Susan
that's right I have a pond right here at my fly fishing school and when I'm out here I go out just about every day and they may only be the size of my hand I just don't ever get tired of it
Katie
yeah you know I love the tug they are so scrappy and you can you can sight fish for them a lot of the time too which is fun you know there's some places you can sight fish your trout but you kind of have to you know if you're sight fishing for trout the the downside is they can probably see you too and whether bluegill can see you or not they don't care they they just want to eat what you're throwing and they want to eat whatever you're throwing yeah so yeah any any other tips for you know maybe someone who's getting frustrated with their with their casting and just is not getting it maybe someone who grew up spin fishing and they're having problems getting used to the idea of a back cast versus a forward cast and they're just getting really frustrated with their casting?
Susan
Well, I would say, especially if it's a younger kid or someone that just doesn't seem to be getting it, I really think a tenkara rod is a really great way to start because you don't have to worry about a tenkara for some that don't know. It doesn't have a reel. I mean, it's a fly rod, but it's just a little tip that comes out of the tip top of the rod called the Lillian and then you have a leader attached to that so it's very it's the most simple of any kind of fly fishing setup that you could have and so starting somebody out like that like if they just want to go out and catch fish that's a great way to get them started especially a kid right at the beginning and then if they're really having trouble once they step up again to the cast with a reel and everything. Maybe instead of using their left hand, just tucking the line under the finger of their right hand so all they're casting is just the line, one set length of line, and then they don't have to worry about getting the line tangled up all around them. So I don't know. Those are just a few little tips, but definitely getting some professional instruction, even if it's just for one hour. I mean, like Orvis has a free casting clinic, you know, they have several sessions throughout the year. So if money is an issue, then, you know, just go to get a free one at Orvis or take a look at some of the different vocational type or outside of the school type catalogs, you know, that offer different, I don't know, basket weaving and you know things like that they do have fly fishing classes so you can go through something like that as well
Katie
yeah I think the benefit to something like that is it kind of does take a little bit of the just worried about embarrassing yourself in front of somebody you know I i think when you like say you go into a fly shop because a lot of people recommend going into a fly shop when you're wanting to get started and I can see people's hesitation about doing that because if you go in you don't even know what to ask you you start to feel embarrassed you feel self-conscious but if you're going to a class with a couple other people who are also beginners like what is there to be embarrassed about you're obviously there to learn everyone else is there to learn the only person who is going to know anything is the instructor and they know that they're there to teach you so it kind of takes a little bit of that that embarrassment out of it so you can just focus on getting better
Susan
that's right and you know some are even intimidated about going out on their first guided trip without knowing anything I've had people do that you know they'll get in the boat and I can see they're just really really nervous and it takes a little bit of time to calm them down and to realize I'm not going to throw them off the boat if they throw a bad cast or a tangle or whatever so but you're exactly right I think going maybe well it depends on the shop too you know if they do have some casting instruction that they offer but maybe calling the shop ahead of time and just saying look I'm a beginner you know what do you do beginners you know do you have anything specifically that's offered or do you have a guide that you can recommend that's really good with the beginners you know those are some good questions even to ask a fly shop because if they know that you're a beginner and that that you're a little bit nervous about it don't hesitate to say you know I'm a little anxious about going can you put me with a guide that you know is a little more patient and understanding and and a fly shop owner owner is going to take that to heart most well and put you together with somebody that they think that you'll really enjoy.
Katie
And you know there's some guides too that really prefer beginners. Like I guided for a couple years a while back and I preferred taking beginners out because I know that their expectations are I just want to have a good time and learn something and honestly that felt like less pressure to me because I'm like I can guarantee that you'll learn something. I can't guarantee that the fish are going to be biting today. That's right. So if I had someone who's been like, oh, I've traveled all over the world fishing. And I'm like, well, you know, now I'm trying to fill these giant shoes of, of the guides that come before me. And, and I want to make sure you catch fish, but someone who's a beginner, you know, if, if they come out knowing how to fly fish, maybe, maybe they catch a couple, you know, I can, I can guarantee that. I like, I like being able to guarantee something.
Susan
And, and so there's probably many, that's a really good day. Yep. Oh, the best words that a guide can hear at the beginning of the day is you know what I'm really here to soak up as much as I can to learn I really don't care if I catch any fish it would be nice but I really don't care so all I want to do is learn and then it's like okay yeah music to my ears that's right
Katie
do you have any tips on specifically getting kids into fishing and not necessarily specifically yours but just how to make it fun for kids to the point where they want to go again. Because I know it can be hard with short attention spans and maybe the kids don't initially want to be there too much, but any tips for keeping kids engaged and getting them to want to come back for more?
Susan
Yeah, sure. So again, bluegill, I can't just stress that enough, taking a kid out to a pond or something to catch bluegill. And, but if you can't do that and you are going to go trout fishing, you know, maybe even taking, taking traditional conventional gear. So if they aren't really getting it right away with the fly rod, you know, just taking a single hook with, I can't even believe I'm saying with a worm or a piece of corn. But if you really are wanting to keep them engaged, you know, right at the beginning, you know, that might be a way just to get them off on the right foot. You know, catching something and not to get bored. They actually want to feel the tug. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. But again, taking them to a pond and, you know, starting out using a tincara, like I said, Or just the right hand, just having the line under their fingers so they aren't having to deal with all the line coming up around their heads. The other thing could be if you're wanting to go on a float, maybe in a tandem kayak, you know, and having a kid in the boat with you in the kayak. So if they get tired of casting or fishing, you know, there's always just floating. I mean, that's always a fun thing to do. I know here at my school, I have a pond and I keep a kayak out next to the pond. So if I am teaching a kid and I can tell they're starting to glaze over and maybe I have them for the whole day, which has happened. You know, people have dropped them off and said, teach them for the day. Then if I can tell they're getting bored or they aren't having, you know, they're OK, they've had enough of the teaching. I'll stick them in the kayak and, you know, let's paddle around the pond for a while. And that gets them really excited. Then we can go back to starting the cast again. So if you just do it in little chunks, you know, don't take a kid out for the entire day and expect that they're going to love it the entire time. They got to build up into it.
Katie
Right. And I mean, there might be kids who just want to play with sticks and rocks. But if you let them do that and they associate, hey, I went fishing. I had a great time. Like, I didn't do much fishing, but I had a great time fishing because I got to play with sticks and rocks. Then they might be more likely to want to go back. And same with floating. You know, if they associate when I go fishing, I get to play in the water and float and, you know, they're going to have a good memory of it.
Susan
Well, and if you're an experienced fisherman and you're trying to get your child into it, one thing that you can take is a few vials along with you that little, just some bottles. And maybe spend some time flipping over rocks, collecting, you know, some mayfly mints or stoneflies. you know, just starting to collect some of those bugs, take them home. And especially if you're a fly tire, you know, go through and show the different, the bugs that they have collected throughout the day and how they relate to the different flies. And I think having a knowledge of why you're using what fly you are, of course that goes for any fly fisher, but especially a kid that wants to flip over the rocks and look for bugs, that's really going to be helpful.
Katie
Oh yeah, because I mean, for adults, it's going to be useful for the flies, but for the kids, even just entertaining them, you know, they might be picking up completely irrelevant bugs, but you know, as long as they're having fun. Right, exactly. Going back to what you said about the tenkara rod, I think another good point on that is that the tenkara rod is usually a telescoping rod. So it folds down basically to the size of, it can fit in your pocket. So you could even encourage people who don't even really like to fish, but they, you know, maybe they like to hike and you're like, Hey, all you have to do is throw this in your backpack. It's not going to add very much weight at all. You can still go hiking. And then if you happen to see something that you want to take a couple casts, you can do that. But you don't have to suddenly decide you're going on a fishing trip, which might be a little, you know, overwhelming to someone who has never fished before. They're like, I'm not sure if I want to spend my weekend doing something that I'm not sure if I'll like. I don't want to hike way back in and carry all this gear that I'm not sure if I'm going to enjoy it. But it's pretty easy to convince someone to throw a tank car rod in their backpack because it weighs next to nothing. And now they can do whatever they were going to do anyway. But now if they happen to see a stream or a pond that they want to fish, they can just whip that out, take a couple casts, and then, you know, continue on their way.
Susan
It is the absolute perfect travel rod for that kind of thing, you know, for sure. Camping and backpacking, because you're right, it doesn't take a whole lot of room. And you don't have to carry your whole vest or anything. You just have to have a couple little, you know, a few flies and maybe some fingernail clippers and that's it.
Katie
Any advice on sharing etiquette with people who are first getting started? Because I think that's something that might be overlooked when someone's first getting started. It's not their fault, but they're not aware of what sort of etiquette is kind of agreed upon on the water.
Susan
Yes. Well, like with conventional fishing, you could come and stand shoulder to shoulder with somebody and start fishing. And with fly fishing, you have to give space. And so the best thing to do is, you know, if you walk up to the stream and you're just getting started and somebody's standing in the water, you know, definitely speak and say hello and just say, you know, you're getting ready to fish. And, you know, do they mind if you go upstream or downstream or, you know, do they have a preference? Most people are going to say, no, just jump in. You know, the water's fine. You know, do it. That's fine. But you may have someone that, you know, they have their eyes set on this very next ripple and they've been, you know, looking at it for the last 15 minutes, making their way down to that ripple. And if you jump right in in front of them, it's just going to be aggravating. But you wouldn't have known that. But if you ask the question, you know, then it's I just think it's just being polite, you know.
Katie
Right.
Susan
So that's the first thing. if you I think if you're if you're kayaking and and fishing and you come upon a fly fisherman definitely ask you know would you rather I go in front of you or behind you again just you know basic politeness you know if you're if you've got your fly rod in in the in with you you aren't going to want to cast right at the person as you float by you know pull in your line and I mean, that's just, it's just basic courtesy. The other thing that I found is keeping the numbers to yourself. I mean, there's nothing more discouraging than you've been working all day. And I mean, you've done as much as you can and you've thrown every fly you can think of. And maybe you've only come away with one and you walk by somebody else and, hey, how'd you do today? I caught 56. Well, there's nothing more deflating. And especially if you've got clients with you that are brand new beginners. And the fact that they both caught one in your mind as a guide is absolutely miraculous. They were really having a hard time struggling. And it was really wonderful that they each caught one. But then you go by somebody and they're like, oh, yeah, it was a killer day. I caught, you know, I lost count. It was over 100. Well, that makes all three of you feel bad right before you had a great day because you at least caught one so I think keeping the numbers to yourself I don't know and just you know saying you had a great day period
Katie
right yeah maybe like oh yeah I caught a couple it's a beautiful day out here you know great to be out or something like that is a little it's encouraging without being a little braggy I guess
Susan
that's right. And obviously pick up your trash. You know, the last thing you want to see is, you know, an empty liter envelope floating through the water or, you know, just just remember, pick up your trash. It's amazing that we even have to say that. But, you know, it's a good thing to do.
Katie
Yeah, I was talking. I don't know who I was talking to recently. And we were noticing how for some reason all the Bud Light drinkers tend to throw their cans. But none of the craft beer drinkers do. I don't know. There's some sort of correlation there with the Bud Light drinkers, and I think the Miller Light drinkers, too, all like to throw their cans.
Susan
For whatever reason, it's true.
Katie
Well, do you want to just end by, again, plugging your book and where anyone can come find you if they want to come on a guided trip with you or if they want to buy the book? I know you talked about this. I don't know when this is going to air, but right now when we're recording, the coronavirus is kind of rampaging through the world. you talked about maybe doing some virtual classes if if people aren't or are a little hesitant about actually coming to meet up with somebody
Susan
yes absolutely well right now the business is basically shut down for in-person guided trips or or casting classes basically just in trying to keep with you know what the policies are right now even though with all good intention you want to stay six feet apart of a client inevitably you're going to have to change their leader you're going to changed their fly you got the lunch so it just doesn't make sense so out of safety concerns I'm not doing that but I am offering on my website virtual classrooms and so for an hour it's 40 bucks an hour I have things set up like you know how to tie you the absolute knots that you have you know from loop to loop connections the blood knots surgeons knots tying a dry and a dropper all the different knots you'd need to learn that's believe it or not you can fill an entire hour with just that and then some but you know if you ever wanted to build a euro nymphing leader and just you know have questions about the setup what is your nymphing and you know how would I even get started or I just want to get started in fly fishing how do I how do I begin with that you know and just going through a listing and so there's all kinds of things you can do virtually so I am offering that my my business is called Southern Brookies and so my Facebook page is Southern Brookies my Instagram is Southern Brookies my website is Southern Brookies so if you just google it you're going to find all of those things so not hard to find that's right and the book is supposed to be out May 12th hopefully it'll make that schedule but it's already out there for pre-order if you just google it thrashers fly fishing guide and and you'll be able to find it through a bunch of different outlets or you can wait in them and just get it at your local shop
Katie
and I know we we talked briefly about this at the beginning before we started recording but I'm not sure when this episode is going to air but there have been some issues with some of these book releases with the coronavirus going around where they're getting delayed. So by the time this episode comes out, I think there's a good chance that even if it does get pushed back, that it might still be coming out right around the time this airs. But obviously, you know, it doesn't sound like it'd be hard to find out updates. Just if you just Google the title of the book or your name, you can probably find out whether the book was actually released in May or if they had to push it back. But either way, I'm sure you can find it and get your name on the list. Yes. Yep. I'm hopeful. I'm sure we all are. I think we're ready for this to start to wind down soon. But yes, right now we just have to do the best we can and hope for the best. Keep the faith. That's right. All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on, Susan. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think you dropped a lot of good nuggets for people who are either looking to get started themselves or looking to get someone else started.
Susan
Okay, wonderful. Well, thanks for having me. All right. It's great talking to you.
Katie
All right. And that is all. As always, if you liked what you heard, I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes, a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks and you can find me on social media under my name Katie Berger on Go Wild or at fishuntamed on Instagram. I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone.
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