Ep 26: Down the Rabbit Holes of Fly Fishing and Texas, with Aaron Reed

Aaron Reed is the author of Fly Fishing Austin & Central Texas. In this episode, we talk about the book and fishing around the Austin area, including some of the unique species available there. Later in the show, we move onto more classic fly fishing banter, like our thoughts on the fly fishing film industry, why people gravitate toward certain species, and the comparison between fly fishing and bowhunting.

Website: https://bluecollarflyfishing.com

Instagram: @texasaaron

Facebook:  /aaronramon

Book: https://flyfishingaustin.thelocalangler.com/

• Transcript

  Katie

  You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 26 of the Fish Untamed podcast. I realize getting ready to record this intro that this is my second author in a row. That's just by chance. Two weeks ago I spoke to Susan Thrasher who wrote Thrasher's Fly Fishing Guide and I just happened to get both of these books one after the other so I ended up having both authors on one after the other. But today I am talking to Aaron Reed who wrote Fly Fishing Austin and Central Texas. Now Aaron lives down in Austin And until getting a hold of his book, I did not know the wealth of fishing opportunities that were around the Austin area. They've got so many different species and lots of different streams. And Aaron covers a lot of that in his book. He doesn't give every place to fish around Austin. He likes to keep a little bit of the magic alive, finding your own spots down there. But he does give quite a few locations. I really enjoyed how he approached his guidebook. It's not just a list of places to go, but he really treats it as a full experience. We get into that a little bit in the episode, but he recommends music to listen to in each spot and a brewery to visit nearby. It's a lot more than just a list of places to go fishing. And he makes it a lot more about the experience overall. We also ended up just chatting for quite a while about anything and everything related to fly fishing. Some ethical questions and where we think that the fly fishing film industry is going and just kind of a whole bunch of rabbit holes that we went down, 'cause Aaron's just a really easy guy to talk to and I always love just chatting about whatever without much of a goal in mind. So after we get through the part about Texas specifically, there's just a lot of chatting about fly fishing, the kind of talk you'd want to have in the fly shop or having a beer around the table. So without further ado, here is my chat with Aaron Reed. What are you drinking?

  Aaron

  I'm actually drinking a Scheiner Bock.

  Katie

  I got a 90 shilling here I just opened so I can have a little happy hour while we chat.

  Aaron

  Is that a local?

  Katie

  Yeah it's Odell.

  Aaron

  Yeah heck yeah that's the only way to have them anymore. I went to a virtual whiskey tasting the other day it was pretty lame.

  Katie

  I don't know I was gonna say that sounds kind of fun. Do you have to just provide your own? Do they give you a list that you have to?

  Aaron

  Well the host was supposed to send out some samples to everyone and I never got one so I was just watching. That was what was lame about it.

  Katie

  Oh, OK. Yeah. That doesn't sound as good. Cool. Well, I usually just start by asking for a little bit about your fishing background. So if you just want to start with that, that'd be great.

  Aaron

  Yeah. Well, like you, I guess, I grew up fishing, surprisingly, for bass and sunfish, because that's what I could reach on my bike in the neighborhood. I grew up in Rockport, Texas, down on the coast. And I did do quite a bit of saltwater fishing, but when I was young, it required an adult either to operate the boat or, you know, take me in a car to saltwater, which wasn't far. We lived in the middle of the peninsula. And so there was a bay behind us and a bay on the east side, on the Gulf side, you know, a couple of miles in each direction. But I spent a lot of time with my friends on my bike by myself with ultralight spinning gear, chasing bass and sunfish in the ponds that are dotted throughout the peninsula down there. So that's how I started fishing. Probably late 80s, early 90s, I first picked up a fly rod. I'd been seeing it down there. That's when red fishing on the flats started to become a big deal. And I thought it was, Honestly, I thought people were showing off. I didn't know what the heck they were doing. I thought it was some Yankee thing. I didn't know what they were doing. But you know, and the rods just looked ridiculous to me. You know, these nine set Indy rods, you know. But I was intrigued. And hey, it was a type of fishing, so I had to try it. So I got a fly rod. I think my first fly rod was a TFO 8 weight or something and started chasing redfish, kind of casually and I take my bait casters and my fly rod and I get frustrated with the fly rod and put it down and start throwing plugs again. And so that went on for a while and oh probably I don't know early 2000s I was working for the state game and fish agency and the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department here and a guy who came from the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Department actually Steve Hall was a certified fly fishing instructor or casting instructor and he gave me a nice long lesson and taught me some basics which is still all I know and I started catching fish on purpose and I was hooked so I I continued continued I should say to fish conventional for quite a while and just mix it up, but with a little more purpose. Probably the last four or five years, it's been almost exclusively fly. Primarily just because I've mostly been exclusively fishing the central Texas rivers and it's the perfect tool for these streams up here.

  Katie

  That's kind of funny that you got your start in redfish. I feel like that's not something you hear very often when you're, when you're getting a backstory on somebody's fly fishing experience.

  Aaron

  Yeah. I mean, it's lucky, right? Uh, I guess. I mean, so I never thought red fish were anything all that special because there are just a lot of them down there. And you know, they're not, they're pretty aggressive fish. You know, so it's not like they're hard to find or super hard to trick. So it's, but they're great fish. I mean, I still love to catch red fish.

  Katie

  That's funny that you mentioned that they're pretty like aggressive and easy to catch because I know so many people who started on trout, myself included, and it's kind of hard to pick a worse fish to start with if you are new to it. And you're like, "Let me pick one of the most wary fish that lives in the clearest streams out there and then try to trick that instead of going out for something that's like notorious for being aggressive and hungry."

  Aaron

  Oh yeah, 100%. So I mean, for trout, you not only have to figure out what they're eating, you have to figure out the stage of life they're eating, you know, if they're on spinners or, you know, emergers or, you know, if they're feeding in the film. And then you have to figure out how to make a drag free drift, you know, and men fly. I mean, there's just so much, so much to learn. And it's, you're not, I guess you're probably not going to catch a lot of trout by accident, right?

  Katie

  Right. Meanwhile you go out for bluegill and you'd have three wraps of a thread on a hook and they'll take it.

  Aaron

  Oh heck yeah, yeah, and you know or you're or you're trying to Unwrap, you know, it's your first day out there you're trying to unwrap the line from the from the from you know around the butt of your fly rod and Meanwhile a bluegill runs off with your fly, right? It happens or your back half gets the water and you catch one back there, you know throw it forward

  Katie

  I've definitely caught my handful of fish that were accidental like I have something hanging in the water I've definitely caught a bass or two that way Smallmouth bass just having it was back when I was gear fishing But I just have like a little rubber worm or something sitting in the water while I untangled my reel and when I went to Reel it back up. There's a fish on the end that had hooked itself and been apparently contently waiting for me to reel it in

  Aaron

  Yeah, yeah, never admit that it was an accident You've always got to claim that fish

  Katie

  So whereabouts in Texas are we talking? I know I know you said he grew up in Texas But like where whereabouts are we talking in, Texas?

  Aaron

  so Where I grew up is about 30 miles north of Corpus Christi It's a peninsula right between Aransas Bay and Copano Bay behind San Jose or st. Joseph's Island as we call it there is the barrier island that Separates the bay from the Gulf and Port Aransas is nearby or answers paths Port O'Connor's just north of us So kind of the middle Texas coast what we call the coastal bend where? Where the coast makes that big curve?

  Katie

  Okay And then what what brought you up to Austin then?

  Aaron

  I moved up here in I moved up here in 95. So I left college in 91 went up to lived in DC for a while and worked up there and then came back to get married and Had a kid and I've been here mostly ever since I I spent Spend a year back up in Dallas and a year down in South Padre Islands very extreme South, Texas and But in another year and a half maybe in Rockport But mostly I've been in Austin or the Austin area since then so yeah It's definitely become home to me. I mean, I still have a lot of family down on the coast and see them pretty frequently, but this is where home is.

  Katie

  So when you moved there, did you know that there was decent fly fishing in the area? Or is that something that you kind of got there and you're like, "Man, I was on the coast before, and I had all my stuff dialed in, and now I'm inland and don't really know where to go." And then you randomly discovered this hidden gem near where you lived.

  Aaron

  Yeah, I definitely knew about it. You know, in the, in, as a, you know, as a young child, even, we would, you know, we would come to Central Texas on family road trips to go camping and for, you know, summer vacation, spring break. And, you know, the first time I went to the Guadalupe River, which is our only trout fishery, I, I was probably like in fourth grade or something. And, you know, we were throwing, we were throwing corn to little stocks trout on salmon hooks or salmon egg hooks. And, but there were fly fishers on the river then. And, and then probably by the time I moved here in the late 90s, early or mid 90s, I mean, there was definitely some fly fishing going on. I think it's grown a a lot since then. There was one fly shop in town, the Austin Angler, which was the first fly shop in Texas and it opened in I think 1980 and closed in 2004. But we have, you know, we have we now have a full service fly shop north, a full service fly shop south, a Norvist store midtown, and three more along the Guadalupe River. So I mean, it's definitely fly fishing is definitely taken off here in a big way. When I first got here, when I first started fly fishing here, I was, I would go down to Lake Austin or Lady Bird Lake, both in town and to the Colorado River in downtown Austin and fish for carp. And I didn't realize carp were supposed to be difficult and I caught a bunch of them, big carp, you know, 30 plus pound fish. I remember breaking a sixth weight on one of them one time. And, um, and I thought of it as practice for my trips back to the coast to fish for redfish. And, uh, I, I was going back a lot. I was going back, you know, maybe twice a month to fish. And, um, so that's how I first started fly fishing up here. Uh, then I took my, I think I took a five weight. I mean, I was smart enough to know that I shouldn't take an eight weight out on these little rivers. So I took a five-weight and I kept catching these 10, 12, 14-inch fish and it just wasn't much fun and I almost quit fly fishing. And one day I was out canoeing with the kids and saw this dude whipping around this tiny little rod and I asked him about it. He said it was a two-weight. I didn't even know they made two-weights. And I think I own five of them now and a bunch of three-weights too. And it changed everything just right sizing my tackle for the streams and for the fish. And I find that with a three-weight, you know, a 10-inch sunfish is a ton of fun. And I can still handle a four-pound bass or a 20-inch trout or, you know, the occasional five to seven-pound carp. So yeah, so that made all the difference for me was just getting my, using the right equipment.

  Katie

  There's definitely something to that. I know I told you I was going to pepper you with some of those questions that you sent me earlier. But you mentioned, what do I prefer, trout or bass? And I said that most of what I fish is trout, because it's what's available around here. But I think one of the things I really love about bass and don't get me wrong, there's trout that are big enough to do this-- but no matter what size bass you hook, it's going to give you a bit of a fight, kind of regardless of what tackle you're using. It's really going to pull, and you're going to have to fight it. And so many of the trout around here are small enough that I'm taking my five weight out because it's just the rod I keep in my car, and it's there for all-purpose duty. But when I'm catching seven or eight-inch trout on it, it's fun. I like bringing them in. But it's just kind of like reeling them in. There's no fight or skill or anything like that. And I really like the feel of, this could end at any moment if I don't do it right. And it just takes a little bit of the magic out of it when you know that all you have to do is pull it in and then it will be there at your feet and you know, nothing you could have done would have caused it to break off or pop off or anything like that.

  Aaron

  Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's kind of like using a cast net or something, isn't it? Or like a big dip net. I mean, you know, you've captured the fish, but there's not a lot of, there's no struggle involved. You know, there's no suspense. You know you're going to land the fish, you know. I agree 100%. I mean, I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not suggesting people use absurdly light tippets or absurdly light lines or rods to unnecessarily prolong the fight. But and I think there's a misconception out there that ultralight rods, what are so-called ultralight rods, you know, one to three way, kill more fish because they prolong the fight. And I don't think that's true. I mean, I used for bass, I use a 3X tippet and I fish fiberglass rods, which are real slow. And they're just, they're like, they're big shock absorbers. And I can really confidently play that fish because I know that the rod's going to protect the tippet. And even when I'm using 5X or something on trout, I know the rod's gonna protect the tippet and I can get that fish to hand. that it's fun while I'm doing it. And it's never more than a two or three minute fight to get it in. Just very similar to what it would be on a four-way, five-way, six-way rod. Even with big fish, even with like a big carp or a big bass. So anyway, it's just a lot more fun for me and certainly a lot more fun for my kids when I take them. And I think people generally over-rod. I'm not really sure why, but everyone says, So you need a five weight or you need a six weight. You know, that's kind of the standard all around rod. And in most cases you don't.

  Katie

  I agree. I've got, so the five weight was the first rod I got, you know, for obvious reasons, it's the one you hear about. And I do think it lives up to its name as an all purpose rod in terms of if I'm fishing everything from, you know, tiny headwater trout to tailwater trout that are 20 plus inches, it does make sense to have a rod that can kind of do it all. But I often see charts that mention 1 to 3 weights are used for such and such species, and 4 to 6 weights are used for whatever. And I often see bass listed under 7 or 8 weights. And I'm pretty sure all the bass I've caught have been on a 4 or 5 weight. And I've never felt like I was really taking it easy on the fish or letting it wear itself out. Like you said, I kind of think the tippet is a little more important in terms of not wearing a fish out. I don't want to fight a big fish on 7x tippet because I'm going to be babying it so much that I'm probably fighting it for 20 minutes. But if you've got decent tippet on there and then the rod bends, that's just absorbing the shock. You can still crank on the rod. And as long as the tippet doesn't break, you're going to be fine. So I think the tippet, like you said, matters a little bit more than the weight of the rod itself. And I do think people tend to go a little higher than they need to on the rod weight.

  Aaron

  Yeah, I think so too. And I think the action of the rod matters too. So I think a slower rod that's more progressive or even parabolic will give you more of that shock absorber action than a super fast tip flex rod. So, which has been the trend in the industry lately. The last five or 10 years is these faster and faster and faster and stiffer rods. And I don't think that serves a lot of everyday anglers really well. I mean, I don't know what you're dealing with out there, that I rarely need to make a cast that's more than 40 feet, and a lot of them are 20 or 30 feet. So I don't need a rocket to get the line out there. I mean, the exception being on the coast where we do have a lot of wind and an eight-way and a pretty aggressive taper on the line makes a lot of sense. But river fishing, whether it's here or times up in Colorado or New Mexico, I'm just not making really long casts.

  Katie

  Yeah, I try to live by the idea that it's better to try to get closer to the fish than to cast farther to get to them. Because most of the time, I'm either able to wade farther, or I can just take a belly boat out. And if it's an alpine lake or something like that, and I really want to get out to the middle, I'll just get closer to the fish. Because then I can make one good cast instead of three bad casts trying to get to where I want to get to. And honestly, most of the struggle I have getting good casts to fish on rivers isn't like I need to cast farther, it's just that I'm crossing a couple different currents and having to deal with that mending. But again, that's fixed by just waiting a little bit farther. So distance is very rarely the limiting factor. I feel like it's usually just the currents and the situation that I happen to be casting in at that moment.

  Aaron

  Yeah, and I mean, how many scenarios are you in where you're actually roll casting, especially on like the headwater streams? I mean, you're doing that a lot, right?

  Katie

  Yeah, or just lowering the fly into the water.

  Aaron

  Yeah, dapping the fish out, right? I mean, yeah, 100%. So I don't know. I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I guess the advantage of a five-weight rod or, you know, something like, you know, a nine-foot five-weight is, like you say, I mean, you can do big tailwater fish. You can do, you know, may not be the most fun in the world or the best tool, but you can, you know, chase small native fish on headwater streams and it'll be fine for a big bass. It'll probably be fine for striper. It's marginally okay for a redfish, you know, or you know, maybe small salmon or something. I mean, I've never fished for salmon, so I don't know, but you know, it's a good all-around rod, but it's, I don't think it's the best tool for most fishing.

  Katie

  I mean, I think in my mind it serves its purpose, which is to, for a beginner, cover a very wide range of fish, and then as you kind of narrow down what you like to fish for, you can get rods that are very specific to that, to that thing. If you like fishing small headwater streams, get a three weight glass rod and have a ball catching 8-inch trout. And if you find that steelhead is your thing, then go ahead and jump up to an 8-weight and just fish for that. But if you've got a 5-weight, you can handle all those things and it's a perfect jack-of-all-trades rod. So I do think that it is very useful for everyone to have one, but it's rarely the one I choose to pull out on any given day.

  Aaron

  Yeah, okay. So yeah, I'm persuaded. I think you're right. And a lot of us don't know what gonna love best about the sport when we start it. And that gives us a good way to go out and sample lots of different fisheries and styles of fishing and species and you're right. And then that's the time, and I think I even said that in the book, that that's the time to go and branch out and add some different, you know, some different rods for different scenarios.

  Katie

  For sure. Speaking of your book, that's a perfect segue into it. I know I've had a chance to read through most of the parts that I'll say are pertinent to me. I'm obviously not going to read through every description of every river until I get a chance to go there, but one of the things I really liked about the book, and it's called Fly Fishing Austin in Central Texas, but one of the things I really liked is that a lot of it is not specific to Texas. You do have a lot of sections for specific rivers and specific areas within those rivers, But it is definitely a useful book for the average person anywhere in the country just in terms of some of the other topics you talk about getting kids into fishing, things like that, which I really appreciated.

  Aaron

  Well, thanks a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's a challenge to write a book that is like hyper local, right? And this is the first fly fishing title that my publisher has done that he's put out, Ember effects has put out a couple of hiking guides and the whole idea behind the hiking guides is it's called the Base Camp Series. So they did Base Camp Denver, Base Camp Las Vegas, there's more in the works and the whole idea is that you can stay in the city, take advantage of everything the city has to offer, but you don't have to do city things. You can, you know, within an hour or two of the the city there are all these beautiful hikes that you can go to. And so my thought when I pitched the book idea was hey the same could be true of fly fishing you know you know you can come to Austin but we've got this incredible fly fishing scene here and all these beautiful rivers and they're you know all within an hour or so of downtown you know there are 16 different streams that you can go fish and they're all different, you know. And so, you know, so it is hyper local for sure. And so the challenge is, I mean, is the market big enough for a book like that, Moss? I mean, obviously my publisher thought it was, I think it is, but I also wanted to provide that information that would be useful to anyone. You know, how do you get started on fly-fishing? So many people are so intimidated by the jargon or the perceived cost or the perceived difficulty of it that, you know, they may, they're interested, they're fly curious, but they're not, they're not going to take that leap without a little encouragement. So I hope that the, you know, the first three chapters of the book are encouraging to those folks and, you know, I guess that would be useful to anyone, anywhere, hopefully.

  Katie

  No, I have to say I really wish that they had a Denver version of this book. And the reason I say that is that it's not hard to find, you know, information on where to go if you Google it. Or there are plenty of guidebooks that do give some general information and those are good but when you get hyper localized like this I feel like the benefit to those who actually are fishing in that area is you can get extremely specific in terms of where you're talking about going. So if I just look up fly fishing in Colorado, I may get a list of rivers and lakes to go to and maybe a brief description about this river has these species. Anywhere above this bridge is easy to access, such and such. But this is-- you divide each river up into a bunch of different sections, and then each of those sections has its own description, pictures. And so you can really break down. I could read this and say, OK, here, this looks like a good river, and then read through all the sections and think which of these sections sounds the most like what I'm looking for versus just showing up at a river and having no real idea of it except for the very vague descriptions of what's in it and generally what the water is like.

  Aaron

  Yeah, 100%. And so one of the ideas behind the book was that you and your boyfriend could fly in for ACL test or South by Southwest. You could bring a fly rod. And with this book, you could call an Uber or a Lyft or walk from the convention center or from South Congress or whatever, and you would have three or four options of where you could go fishing and you'd be able to see exactly what you should expect there. You know, how to fish the water, you know, how to get into the water, what's going to be half a mile upstream, you know, the kind of structure that's there and the kind of fish that you can look for in the fly seas. So that was really the thought behind the book, was just to make it that easy to give people confidence when to get out there. You know, I'm a big believer that everyone should have the opportunity to to walk in a stream bed holding a stick. You know, I think everyone should have the opportunity to do that. And I want to make it easy, as easy as possible for them to do that.

  Katie

  I have to say the other my other favorite thing about this book, and actually, this is probably my favorite thing about the book overall, is that it is treated a lot more like an overall experience than just a list of places to go fishing. I've marked down a couple of things. Let me find them. Just what you have marked here. That you have symbols for whether it's best to wade or float or bank fish. And then you suggest songs to listen to while you're in that area and a brewery to hit afterward. It's just like, there's so much more to fishing. Like you mentioned earlier in our emails, that your time with your friends camping, the camping is often more important than the fishing, you know, and the road trip to get to where you're going. Just the experience around the trip, and fishing is just kind of the catalyst to get it all together. But at the end of the day, the fishing often makes up just a fraction of the overall experience of a fishing trip. And I really, really enjoyed the way you set that up where it's, hey, you're gonna go to this area, I'm going to create a suggested experience for you based on what I've enjoyed. And this is what I think that someone who's coming to this area might enjoy to kind of round out their trip.

  Aaron

  Oh, thanks so much for that, Katie. That means a lot because that was definitely top of mind for both me and my publisher. That's very much in the Iberifex books DNA is to provide context and those little historical asides and other things that you might see. For me as an angler, and I'm sure you've experienced this, and I know you've experienced this 'cause I've heard you talk about it and seen it in your blog posts, but a lot of times the most memorable thing about a fly fishing session is the wildlife I saw that wasn't fish, or some rock formation, or I mean, could be anything out there. And I wanted to give people as much context as possible. And my nine-year-old, we're homeschooling right now, of course. So yesterday, we conducted our science, that's air quotes, science module by going fishing on the North Fork. - Naturally. Yeah, on the North Fork of the Gate. It was actually science and PE together. And, but, you know, we, you know, we, an eyed click beetle, Texas eyed click beetle, which is this huge dramatically marked insect launched itself onto my collar. And so we got to look at that and make it click and talk about why that happens. And, you know, that it's avoiding predation by doing that. And it can also flip itself over and then it played dead for us, which is another behavior that that particular insect has. We saw a dead spiny soft-shelled turtle, which they're pretty amazing animals. And I'm sorry that one was dead, but it was a really big and could have been really old. I'm sure it died of old age. And so he asked me a lot of questions about that. And then we were identifying plants. You know, this is a pecan tree, this is a sycamore tree. And he says, "Daddy, is it invasive?" And I said, "No, it's not." I said, "It's a really great tree. And it's the first tree to recolonize these gravel bars in the stream bed after a flood." We got to talk about that. And he said, "How do you know all this stuff?" And I said, "Well, Connor, just live long enough and you'll know this stuff. You know, I'm old. That helps." And he'd also asked me if he asked me too many questions earlier in the day. And I said, "No." I said, "I may not always be able to answer your questions, but ask away. I mean, that's how you learn stuff." You know, so, so yeah, so I mean, he's already interested in all of that. He wants to know, he wants to know why the, the long-ear sunfish are so much more colorful this time of year than they are in, you know, in the winter, you know, or, or what that gar over there, that, that spotted gar is doing and, you know, I mean, all that sort of thing. So it's just, it's a lot of fun and there's, you know, there's always a lot more to fishing than fishing.

  Katie

  Yeah. I think it's a good point that you mentioned that your son behaves like that because I think you can learn a lot from the way a child's mind works. It just in the, you know, in the realm of like curiosity and things like that. Like you said, it's often not the fishing. I don't know if you listened to my episode with my friend Allie, but we were talking about one of the trips we went on and at the end of, you know, we talked and talked and talked about it, about our favorite parts of it. And at the end we were like, oh, oh, and we did catch some fish. it that was part of you know what what came to mind we're like oh the hike was so hard we got hailed on and this happened and you know he fell in and and then it was like oh and we did catch fish and that was fun too but you know it was like last thing that came to mind

  Aaron

  yep yeah hundred percent yeah so yeah like we were talking about it in email earlier so those trips I do with my buddies Chris Barkley he's a rod maker in North Carolina who you really ought Dave is a photographer and a buddy that I work on the tugboats with, Jess Alford, another tugboat captain. We don't talk about a particular fish that we caught, this or that Rio Grande cutthroat or Apache trout or Hilo trout. We talk about the endless drive across New Mexico from top to bottom. We talk about one of the guys like, you know, kind of shyly, I'm not going to say who, kind of shyly suggesting that maybe we want to turn around and see what that thing that was marked dispensary is all about. You know, or the, you know, bear print that was in my footprint when I turned around and backtracked, you know, 30 minutes later. You know, stuff like that. I mean, those are the things we talk, you know, or at the time Chris, like, got violently ill because he ate those dang mountain home scrambled eggs, you know, which I'm sure they're a great company. I like some of their food, but yeah, that one particular entree did not look inviting.

  Katie

  Yeah, I think everyone's got one of those meals that they're just like, "I can't do that one." Maybe the other ones, but not that one.

  Aaron

  Yeah.

  Katie

  Yeah, it's – at the end of the day, I don't want to discredit the beauty of fishing itself because that's obviously what we want to do. But at the end of the day, when I think back on a lot of my fishing trips, a lot of them kind of just mold together, you know, the fishing portion. If I'm catching trout in a place I've been before and they're the same size they've before and I catch a dozen in a day, then eventually I'm going to kind of lose track of what was what at some point. But I'm never going to forget the time that we pulled up and there was a pile of bear crap right outside our car door when we opened it up. That has only happened to me once and so I will continue to remember that until it starts to happen too much that I forget.

  Aaron

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, it's these extraordinary things and I've always heard that the hardest trips make for the best stories and that's absolutely I mean like you're just saying I mean oh my god that hike you remember that hike you know and I thought we were going to die you know and um and you remember that stuff it sticks with you you know you don't remember every beautiful sunny day where the fishing was easy and nobody nothing happened right I mean so um yeah anyway so I I hope that I hope the book gives gives readers some additional context you know and just makes the experience a little richer and It's not, I mean, it's not exhaustive by any means. It's not exhaustive in destinations. I mean, there are 101 access points in fly fishing in Austin and Central Texas. There are 49 detailed route descriptions that you were talking about. But that's, you know, that's not even half of what's available here. And, you know, I mentioned just kind of passingly some others, but I hope people will use the book as a jumping off point to go and explore and find their own favorite places as well.

  Katie

  Yeah, that's definitely half the fun. It's really nice being told where to go, but it's also a little more satisfying when you come across something that you can convince yourself that no one else knows about.

  Aaron

  Yeah, for sure, yeah.

  Katie

  So one of the things that I really liked looking at were all the pictures of the different species. Can you go through some of the species that you have down there, especially the ones that may not be found many other places?

  Aaron

  The fish species?

  Katie

  Yep.

  Aaron

  Yep. OK, so we've got Northern largemouth bass, which is the native bass here. It's the same one that everyone east of the Rockies has in the United States and where they've been introduced west of the Rockies as well.

  Katie

  And how does that differ from other largemouth bass?

  Aaron

  So it is the native bass across most of North America. What's happened probably since the 1950s is that Florida bass have been introduced widely because they grow faster and they get bigger. And I think tournament fishing has driven this a lot. So Florida bass, which are incredibly similar, they were considered a subspecies of largemouth bass for a long time, and now they've got their separate species designations as of now. They've been introduced everywhere, and mostly into reservoirs, but of course rivers feed reservoirs and drain reservoirs, and so they've made their way into rivers and people have their private stock, private hatcheries that stock them in people's estate lakes and stock paints and whatnot, and they escape. The problem with this is that they, Typically, Florida bass stop eating when the water gets colder. I mean, they're subtropical fish. And they, so as those genetics have intergressed our native northern largemouth bass, they, you know, we've literally seen the bite slow down in the winter, right? Where those fish have made it into the gene pool. So those fish are present, both those bass are present. There was a species out in West Texas called the Nueces largemouth, which is like a largemouth bass, but with a tongue patch is how it was described to me. And that may or may not still exist. The state stocks Lake Amistad very heavily with Florida bass. So it looks like some of those bass have made it above Dolan Falls on the Devil's River and we may have lost that fish. Our native fish and the state fish of Texas is the Guadalupe bass. It's another black bass. It's more closely related to a spotted bass than a largemouth. And from the late '50s through probably about 10 years ago years ago, the state stocked smallmouth bass pretty widely in central Texas. And what they didn't realize at first was that the smallmouth were hybridizing with the Guadalupe bass and in some streams they had pretty much wiped out the pure Guadalupe bass population. And the Edwards Plateau, the hill country of Texas, is the only place that Guadalupe bass are found in the world. So it's an endemic fish. So there's been a real effort to restore some of those populations and protect others over the last, really about the last 20 years, but really focused in the last 10 years. And that's a great fish. So like the warrior bass or the red-eyed bass, some of these other riverine black basses in the southeast U.S., these are really, they're ripple-loving fish, they act a lot like trout, young fish, and very old, very old mature fish, really keen on insects. And, you know, they'll also of course take streamers and crawfish, anything you'd fish for a small amount would work, but they're just, they're just really phenomenal fish and they're strikingly patterned, they're really beautiful, they're a little bit different in every river basin that they're found in. So that's kind of our starfish here. We do have smallmouth still on a few streams. We've got probably about, I mean there's certainly more than five species of sunfish in Texas, but there are five that are really commonly caught. And one of those, the red breast sunfish, is introduced from the southeastern United States, but they're in most of our streams, not all of them, but most of them. The most interesting fish, I think the long-eared sunfish is probably the most beautiful. I mean it's aquamarine and red and just, I mean it's an explosion of color. They're like jewels in the water, you know. But I think the most interesting fish we probably have is the Rio Grande cichlid. They are native to Texas, they're native to South Texas, the Rio Grande Valley, maybe the Nueces River at the edge of the western side of the Hill Country. But in 1929, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service captured a bunch down in Mission, Texas and moved them up to their San Marcos fish hatchery and started propagating them and then stocked them in all these Hill Country streams that are spring fed. So we think of the spring fed streams as cool, especially in the summertime, because the water comes out of the ground at like, you know, 72 degrees or something. And, but it's also 72 degrees in the wintertime. So it's warm in the wintertime. So these fish are able to survive year round. And one of my friends described this as, he said, it's like holding, it's like holding the Milky Way in your hands. You know, I mean, these fish are just spangled with these aquamarine or blue spots and the males develop these humps on their heads during breeding season and they're really deep bodied fish. They fight like crazy. They're super picky, hard to catch and just a ton of fun. So that's also one of the fish that we look for a lot down here and the people actually travel from you know across the state or surrounding states to fish for.

  Katie

  What was that called the Rio Grand Cichlid?

  Aaron

  Yeah, the Rio Grande cichlid. So these are actually available all over the world as aquarium fish. They're called Texas cichlids.

  Katie

  OK.

  Aaron

  But they're native to Texas.

  Katie

  Now, are there other cichlids there, too? Or is the Rio Grande the only one?

  Aaron

  There are introduced cichlids, so tilapia in particular, blue tilapia, Nile tilapia, which are considered invasive. The Rio Grande cichlid, even though it's introduced to central Texas, is not considered invasive. But the tilapia certainly are. So we do see those in some of the streams. But those are the only cichlids we have. We don't have Mayan cichlids like you'd find in South Florida. But yeah, if you want to see a picture of the fish, I think page 154, there are some pictures of some of the big males in breeding season.

  Katie

  Yeah, I actually just looked up some pictures online. I've seen cichlids before, but not the specific one you mentioned. But you're not lying when you say that it looks like the Milky Way. It actually looks like Jackson Pollock through a bunch of paint at the fish canvas.

  Aaron

  It does, it totally does. And they're, I mean, and yeah, they're just, they're quirky, they're really curious fish. I mean, they'll come out and inspect anything you throw, you know, in front of them and they may or may not, you know, pick it up, but they'll come look at it, you know, so they're just neat.

  Katie

  Two quick questions on identification. Can you tell the difference between the two large mouths? if you were to catch a Florida one versus a Northern? And then also, what's the defining features of a Guadalupe bass? Like, how would you know you've caught any of these things?

  Aaron

  Yeah, so that's a great question, and it's a common question on the fly fishing forums and the fishing message boards here. So your first question, Florida bass versus Northern largemouth, no. I mean, it would take a geneticist to tell the difference. I mean, we can assume that if it's a 13 or 14 pound fish, it's a Florida bass or has a significant amount of Florida bass genetics. But other than that, I mean, I don't know a way to tell. I've never heard of one. As far as the Guadalupe bass goes, it's really pretty easy to, And a lot of our river bass, our largemouth bass, whatever they are genetically, are super strikingly colored. They're like blotched and barred, and they've got these beautiful colors. And I think that's just mostly a function of clear water. In a lot of species, in a lot of places, if the water's clear, the fish will have more obvious camouflage, and you'll find paler, more uniform fish from turbid water. So I think that's why the largemouth bass look that way here. But the Guadalupe bass, so first of all, the jaw does not extend when it's closed. It doesn't extend past the rear margin of the eye. So just like a smallmouth or a spotted bass. It's got rows of single black dots on the belly, just like a spotted bass. and it has a tooth patch, which a small mouth does not. So there's actually some pharyngeal teeth on the, or not pharyngeal teeth, but teeth on the tongue, or a rough spot on the tongue. And spotted bass and Guadalupe bass both have that. So really it comes down to a difficulty between telling the Guadalupe bass and spotted bass apart. And there is some natural hybridization, some overlap in some of the streams. But so a lot of it's based on geography, but there are some fish that you just look at and you know, oh yeah, that's a Guadalupe bass. So it's got more vertical barring on it and kind of more of a tiger striped fish. Anyway, so that's basically it on those fish.

  Katie

  So they are a distinct species from a spotted bass?

  Aaron

  Oh yeah, 100%, yeah. They are a distinct species. And they're not hard to differentiate everywhere. Just in some of our streams where there's some overlap, they do hybridize and they can be hard to tell apart. So yeah, that's the state fish of Texas actually. So some other fish that we have that are a lot of fun, we have a sucker that's native, It's called a gray red horse sucker. And they look like bonefish. They're like little torpedoes. They get up to maybe 22, 23 inches. And on the Guadalupe River where our trout fishery is, we frequently catch them as bycatch on nymphs. But we can find them in most of our creeks and rivers. And they're native to Texas and just a small portion of Northern Mexico. So I don't think we find them So those are really cool fish. And of course freshwater drum or gasper goo, they up north they call them sheep's head. River carp suckers, that's another one that we see. Striped bass in some of our rivers that have escaped from reservoirs. White bass during this time of year, their spring spawning run, they come up from the lakes and spawn in the rivers. So yeah, I think that's, I think those are the major, of course, catfish. And I've heard fly fishermen like poo-poo, like, oh, that's catfish water. And I'm like, our catfish water is pretty cool. I mean, it's clear, it's pretty, it's fast flowing, and I'll take a catfish, you know. Yeah. I mean, anything that eats a fly, I'm game. Spotted gar is another one, and longnose gar. The longnose guard can get to be like five feet long and can be really acrobatic when you catch them like a little tarpon or something.

  Katie

  I am so jealous of the number of species you have. I know we keep referencing this email thread we had going on earlier, but like you said, a lot of the rivers near me, apart from the ones that are actually down here in the front range, are pretty monoculture. The most you can hope for is several species of trout and maybe whitefish. That's kind of what you're working with. I have to say, one of my favorite parts of fishing is not knowing what you're going to catch. I loved growing up and feeling a tug on my line, and my first thought is, "What could it be?" And then learning the different feels of different fish. I can usually tell that I've got a walleye instead of a smallmouth when I'm fishing back home. One feels like a dead log, and the other feels like it's going to rip your rod out of your hands. And here, you're usually pretty aware of what's going to be on the end of your line, and if If you're not fully aware because it's just a single species, then it's going to be between one or two or between two or three species of trout. And it's just kind of like, well, there's mostly browns here, so I'm sure it's a brown.

  Aaron

  Yeah, right. Yeah, no. So it's almost like I agree with you 100%. It's a lot of fun to not know exactly or to at least have options. I mean, a lot of the fishing we do is site fishing here on these rivers, but to at least have some options, you know. It's almost like saltwater fishing in that way, right? I mean, where you don't know if it's gonna be a trout, a flounder, a redfish, a snook, a tarpon, I mean, a jack, crevalle, you know, or, I mean, could be any, it could be a blacktip shark, you never know. And it's, so it's exciting from that perspective. And it also gives you lots of options. I mean, we do have insect catches on these warm water streams. We've got, you know, tricos, BWOs, tons of caddis. And which I guess speaks to the quality of the environment and the water and a lot of these rivers. But the sunfish will rise to mayflies, you know, just like trout. And you can sit there and throw dry flies to long ear and red breath sunfish on Brushy Creek. I mean, it's a really cool thing. And then, you know, here comes a big guard, you know, cruising by and quick, you know, switch to streamer and and strip it past his face real quick so he can eat it. You know, and oh, there's a big bass sitting over there up in that corner and, you know, put it on a crawfish pattern or a popper or something. You know, I mean, it's just an incredible variety.

  Katie

  Oh yeah, and like we mentioned earlier with trout being kind of not the best fish to start with because it is so picky. You know, if I go out, I need to figure out what they're eating that day or I'm not gonna catch anything. And it's nice to throw something out and be like, well, you know, something's probably eating this today. I don't know if it's going to be what I'm expecting it to be, but if I throw out a mid-sized streamer I could catch anything from a large sunfish to, I assume a gar would take something like that. So just being able to throw something out and knowing that something's probably going to like it versus having to pinpoint exactly what stage in the hatch the mayfly emerges are or whatever.

  Aaron

  Yeah, so I mean technically that makes someone whose home water is a trout stream probably a better, more technically proficient angler than someone who grows up on these warm water streams because we can get really lazy. A little piece of foam with a couple of rubber legs will probably do the trick here. But on the other hand, it's a great place to start fishing here. Even on our trout stream, the Guadalupe River, it's a tailwater fishery. So I guess probably like a lot of tailwater fisheries, there's a lot of indicator nymphing going on. Do you guys do that a lot in the tailwaters out there?

  Katie

  Oh yeah, yep.

  Aaron

  Not my favorite way to fish, I have to say. I mean, highly effective for sure. So there's a lot of indicator nymphing. So I lost my droppers. I was out there a couple of weeks ago and lost my droppers. I started to see fish rise. I'm like, oh, screw it. I'm just gonna throw this Elkhair caddis. And there was a small haddock catch going on. My fly was way too big. I hadn't really stocked a lot of dry flies that day. And so I started throwing this Elkhair caddis and drifting around this little island out in the river and smacked two huge sunfish right off the bat and then caught two trout, you know? And so I'm like, oh, well, that's kind of cool, to get two sunfish and then two trout out of the same stream. That was neat.

  Katie

  Yeah, and on the same fly, too.

  Aaron

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

  Katie

  Yeah, you're right. The indicator nymphing is I do it a decent bit, but I have started switching more to dry drop or whenever I can get away with it. Because A, I want to up my chances of catching something, and I feel like having two flies on is going to be better than just having one. But also, it just feels a little nicer. And you're still watching a dry fly, which brings a little bit of the purity back into it, I think. I've heard people say that the dry dropper does neither well. And I don't really think it needs to do either one perfectly. I think it covers a wide range. And it just brings a little bit it takes the heavy, gross indicator and a bunch of weight out and turns it slightly back toward what it feels like it should be. So I've been…

  Aaron

  Yeah, I mean, 'cause let's face it, let's face it, you're lobbing a bobber.

  Katie

  Right.

  Aaron

  You know, when you're indicator nymphing, right? I mean, it's a bobber, and you're not far removed from a cane pole when you do that. So, is that snobby of me? I mean, I'm not being snobby about it. It's a really effective way to fish. I mean, it really is. I've caught some great fish and had a lot of fun doing that. I have also seen a trout rise and try to swallow my indicator.

  Katie

  Yeah.

  Aaron

  You know, I mean, a freaking airlock, you know, big white ball, and it tries to eat it and takes it under. I'm like, "Oh, if that had been a dry fly, "I'd have that fish."

  Katie

  You know, and then you wonder why, you know, you can throw five different flies, and on the sixth one, that's when they want it, but they'll still come up for something like an indicator. And you're like, "Oh, okay, "if I had just thrown a cotton ball on a hook, "I would have caught you, but you don't want my mayfly "that's not quite in the right stage."

  Aaron

  Right, right. But I must have missed the golf ball hatch.

  Katie

  Right. Yeah, those are frustrating. We've joked many times about just sticking a hook on all of our indicators just in case.

  Aaron

  Yeah, so that was the first time that it ever happened to me. So I guess that happens pretty commonly. Is that right?

  Katie

  I mean, I wouldn't say commonly. I'd say maybe once a year or so. I get a fish that comes up and takes my indicator, and every time I just want to throw my rod.

  Aaron

  Yeah, so another example, so obviously I didn't catch that fish, but I mean it makes me chuckle Just thinking about it. You know, I mean, it's like vividly imprinted in my memory. So Obviously catching fish and it isn't the entire point.

  Katie

  Yeah, it's always the one that got away That's more memorable than the one you landed

  Aaron

  Especially the one that got away because he tried to eat the indicator, right?

  Katie

  Yeah Well, I want to I want to hit you with a couple of these questions that you sent me in the email

  Aaron

  Sure

  Katie

  so just because I've been referencing this email all day, but you sent me an email earlier Just with some interview questions for me, which I thought was super fun and they're good questions So I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you as some of them. I got to pull up the email here I Think I know what you're gonna say to this, but would you take trout or bass?

  Aaron

  I Mean it's a tough one, right? So I mean I like bass a lot I like explosive topwater takes a whole lot. But I've never caught a four or five pound trout in Labrador, northern Ontario. I'd really like to try that, you know, catch a big native brookie. There is something absolutely magical about watching a wild trout rise out of a seam and sip your dry fly. I mean, that's just, I mean, it's a beautiful thing to watch. It's sublime. So...

  Katie

  It almost happens in slow motion.

  Aaron

  It does. I mean, certainly in my mind it does. And if it was truly slow motion, I wouldn't miss so many hook sets when that happens. But I mean, I guess I have to say bass just because that's what I grew up on. And that's what I have here. Like Greg Brown saying, “Trout are pretty finicky, Trout are English, bass are Polish." And I like Central Europe. So I'll go with bass.

  Katie

  How much-- this isn't something you asked, but I'm just intrigued now. Because I chose bass as well, because I grew up with them. And I think smallmouth bass will probably forever be my favorite fish. Do you think that that's a common thing amongst people who fish that their favorite fish is often something that they just they relate good memories to it? Like, I don't fish for bass very often anymore. But my childhood memories with them are so vivid, and I miss them so much that I almost feel offended that any other fish could take its spot. Do you think that's something that's common? You said that it's what you grew up with. It's what you know. It's what you love. Even if trout are kind of an exotic dream that you want to achieve at some point, bass is what you're familiar with. And I feel like that might be common amongst people, that they really miss that feeling of what they started on?

  Aaron

  You know, I haven't thought about it a lot until you just asked the question, but I think you're right. My friend Chris Barkley in North Carolina, he spends, I mean, most of his fishing now is in, you know, along the Blue Ridge, in the Blue Ridge Mountains in the Southern Appalachians and for native brook trout. And he's really working his way up these true blue lining. I mean, some of these little creeks, some of them don't even have names, and there are these remnant, these relic populations of brook trout there. That's what he does mostly. A friend of mine here in Texas just wrote a book about fly fishing in the Sam Houston National Forest near Houston. And these are mostly not really clear limestone bottom, creeks. They're more meandering, slower, stained water, and a ton of spotted bass, a ton of largemouth bass, a ton of sunfish. And Chris was looking at that and he's like, he got like teary about it. He was like, oh man, he said that takes me right back to my childhood. He said I love sunfish on the fly, you know. And He I mean he goes out and catch a smallmouth all day long and and warrior bass and or you know Whatever he has red-eyed bass, whatever he has there but his favorite fish to catch is a red breast on fish on a two-weight or a three-weight and I don't know if that's because that's what he grew up doing but I would imagine that has something to do with it I mean, it's really you know, and there are people who grew up with trout, you know

  Katie

  Yeah,

  Aaron

  you know and I'm sure that that's sentimental for them. But yeah, I think for sure. I think every time we go out Into nature or we go stomp a creek or walk a river I mean for me anyway it part of that is trying to recapture some of my childhood, right? And doing those things with my dad or my grandparents because you know We did a lot of that when I was a kid So for people who didn't do that when they were kids, I don't know. I don't know if that would apply

  Katie

  Yeah, I wonder how different it is if he started just a couple years ago not to take anything away from that I'm sure you know based on very vivid vivid memories of what they started fishing for too it's a little different I think when it happened when you were a kid because it's just such a different experience. I mean as a kid you can't go wherever you want, you're kind of stuck wherever you can get to via foot or bike and you might be just kind of out there by yourself throwing a line in the water and hoping for the best and not knowing what you're doing and it's just a very different experience from learning as an adult when you've got you know video resources, you guess to get to get to fishing and I think having that experience as a kid is is really beneficial in terms of just teaching you how to be patient how to struggle be frustrated overcome and I wonder if that's part of it too is it's it takes a lot longer to figure out what you're doing and how to do it right when you're just trying to figure it out yourself as a kid versus having all the resources we have now at your fingertips and can pretty much make it happen pretty quickly if you want to.

  Aaron

  Yeah that's true yeah I know I hadn't thought about that, but I think you're right. I think that is an important difference, and you're absolutely right. We can, I mean, it's amazing the resources that are available, you know, just online. I mean, you can go sign up at Orvis and get a complete fly fishing tutorial, you know, or, you know, here in Austin, you can go to Living Waters, and every month they have a a four hour intro to fly fishing class for free that includes casting instructions.

  Katie

  Which is awesome.

  Aaron

  Yeah, and they get 20 or 30 people every month who are new to the sport. And then they're walking or driving four blocks and catching their first fish, which is probably gonna be a sunfish or a bass on Brushy Creek. So these are people who are minted as warm water fly fishers and hopefully they'll make it to a trout stream someday. But that's not their main focus.

  Katie

  Right, I think it's important to specify too that just because you prefer something, I mean, most people I know, despite the fact that they have something they really want to fish for, they're not gonna turn down fishing for anything. It's just, if they had one day left on earth to go fishing, what would they fish for? It's probably gonna be something that they've had an emotional connection to in some way.

  Aaron

  Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And we talked earlier on email about some of the fish porn that's out there and these exotic trips and how these get played up in social media and films and whatnot. Any fishing trip is probably a great fishing trip and any species that you can catch on a fly is probably a great species. And I don't wanna imply or ever feel just because something's common or just because it's in your backyard in your home waters that it's not a worthy fish to go fish for. Bluegill are common as dirt and they are so much fun on the fly rod. And largemouth bass are everywhere in the lower 48 and they are so much fun on a fly rod. If you live out west, there are probably trout. I mean, they may not be wild native trout. They may be brook trout, you know, imported from the east or whatever, but there are trout somewhere, you know, within 30 minutes of you. So, and they're great fish, you know, and you can learn and it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you're doing. I mean, I have a complicated relationship with our tailwater fishery here. It's not the kind of trout fishing that I prefer to do. I mean, it wouldn't be my first choice. It can still be a lot of fun, and it has a ton to teach me about mending line and making good drifts and playing fish and where fish lie in a river. You know, it's got a lot to teach me, and I think all fish do. All rivers do.

  Katie

  I think that's an important point anyway. Just to consider the fact that just because you may not feel particularly excited to fish a certain section or a certain species or whatever, that you can treat a fishing trip as a learning experience. I've fished the river near me dozens of times and I can only go out and catch the same fish over and over again before it starts to kind of lose its charm. But all I have to do is think, "Okay, well I'm usually fishing nymphs here, maybe I should a streamer or I usually dead drift an indicator rig here I'm going to try swinging wet fly and instead of thinking of it as I'm just repeating the same old thing I've done over and over again and I'm getting kind of bored turn it into something that's more interesting by challenging yourself with a new technique that you have you have no idea how to use and you know that's that itself if you catch one fish at that point it's suddenly going to be way more exciting than catching ten fish the way you always do before.

  Aaron

  Yeah hundred percent and you just reminded me of something the very first Guadalupe bass that I well as an adult anyway that I knew was a Guadalupe Bass, was on a soft tackle. And I just read a really terrific book whose name I probably can't remember now. Is it Fishing Wet Flies? Is that, do you know the book I mean?

  Katie

  Um, I don't think, it sounds familiar but I'm not positive. 

  Aaron

  Yeah, I'm looking at my bookcase right now. I don't see it. But anyway, it's an incredible book about tying and fishing wet flies, everything from North Country spiders to whatever. And I started by learning a little bit about the biology and habits of Guadalupe bass when I really started focusing on them. And I thought, ooh, a wet fly would be really-- a soft tackle would be really cool. And so I tied some really crappy, too large soft hackle wet flies and immediately caught fish. And then I moved on to crawfish patterns and deer hair bugs and some other stuff. And then one of my friends here locally, Cody Sorrell, we were out fishing on Bretschy Creek and he broke out this beautiful little turkey body sock tackle that he had tied. And I was like, "Ooooh, Guadalupe Bass." He goes, "Yeah, man, that's what I was thinking." I'm like, "Oh, you just reminded me of something I'd forgotten for four years." You know? And yeah, so yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah. I mean, there are days I'll go down to the Guad to trout fish and throw nothing but streamers just to see, right?

  Katie

  Right? You might, I mean, you might have something completely unexpected happen and where you're just like, "Oh my god, I did not know that if I did this that I'll catch fish." It's kind of like what we talked about earlier where you accidentally catch something because your fly's in the water. Like, you might accidentally catch something when you're just pulling your fly up to cast again and you're like, "Oh, you know, when I was lifting it up, that's when it hit and I hadn't been catching anything before so maybe I need to readjust to, you know, mimic what I just did." It's just, everything can be a learning experience and anyone who thinks that they know everything is is kidding themselves and also you know jipping themselves out of a lot of fun experiences that they could get just by accepting the fact that they should try to learn something.

  Aaron

  Yeah I agree and I mean isn't that the great thing about fly-fishing though is it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it you'll never get to the bottom of it. I mean there there is just so much to learn and in I mean I am quite sure that at the end of my life, I mean the very last time I go fishing, I'll still be trying to be a better caster. I will still be learning something new about rivers that I've fished for decades or fish that I've caught a hundred or a thousand times. There's always more to know. It's so cool.

  Katie

  For sure.

  Aaron

  And I think that should give, I think that should give, uh, newcomers to the sport hope, right? I mean, so maybe there's, there's more, they don't know when they first start, but none of us know everything about it. Right. So, um, we're all, we're all constantly learning.

  Katie

  Right. You mentioned that you got a little uncomfortable when you're, uh, was it your publisher who kept referring to you as an expert and you're like, no, no, no. I don't like that. That's makes me feel uncomfortable. I feel the same way like if if if I start to feel like I know a lot I'm like I need to get myself back in check and I don't I don't want anyone to assume that I am some sort of All-knowing resource on the topic that would make me uncomfortable to think that

  Aaron

  Yeah, for sure. I mean or you know, just go visit a new river, you know, or try to fish for a new species and Boy, you'll be disabused of that notion real quick, won't you? Or or just go have a bad day on your home waters, you know

  Katie

  That's the worst, you know, at least you can if you go to a new spot or a new species and you don't catch anything It's pretty easy to chalk it up to that But if I go to where I always go and I don't catch something I get very self-conscious.

  Aaron

  Oh Heck yes, and it happens right and especially like you're like you're saying if you take a friend, you know or someone who hasn't fished before hasn't fished that river before and you take them out for the first time and there's so much pressure and you just feel horrible if they're not catching fish right away. It's your favorite place and you've told them all about it and, "Oh, I've got this place dialed in," and you get out there and nothing.

  Katie

  You just lose all credibility.

  Aaron

  Yeah. You know what? I'm a firm believer that sometimes fish are just assholes.

  Katie

  Oh, yeah.

  Aaron

  It's not always the angler's fault. Redfish, for instance, they have to turn themselves upside down. They've got underslung mouths and they have to turn themselves upside down to hit a topwater lure or a surface fly, right? And they miss a lot. And that is not your fault, that's the fish's fault.

  Katie

  Right, and that definitely happens and you can tell when it happens but you always also feel a little weird when when someone asks and you're like, "Oh yeah, I mean I got a strike but it missed the fly." You know how bad it sounds when you're telling someone that you're like, no, really it did.

  Aaron

  No, but just like those accidental catches, I really believe that it's perfectly okay to say it's the fish's fault. Um, I mean, to just take the benefit of the doubt, right. And, um, even, even on the, even on the hook sets that I absolutely 100% my fault, I was daydreaming, I tried to strip set when I should have trout set, you know, whatever, um, I'll still blame the fish.

  Katie

  Oh, yeah. you know that there's there's times to where you know this for example when I'm using dry droppers Sometimes they'll come up and take the dry fly. I set the hook I obviously missed that hook set but then it gets it gets hooked on the the bottom fly.

  Aaron

  Yeah

  Katie

  What'd you catch it on? I was like, well, I mean it it took you know, an elk hair caddis, but here it is on the midge and yeah, and it just happened to hit it in the mouth. Otherwise, it would have been foul hooked in the back somewhere. The foul hooked fish are harder to bring in anyway. They're pulling forward instead of backwards.

  Aaron

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Katie

  All right, well, moving on to our next rapid fire, not so rapid fire question from the email. And this one was the one I really am interested in your answer. And I was really intrigued by the fact that you asked it. But so one about, have we reached an inflection point in fly fishing films and media where it's becoming a little bit oversaturated with the glory shots of like massive trout and almost making people feel like if they're not catching 20 inch brown trout every time they go out, that they're somehow not up to par with what the standard is these days, because that's what everyone wants to share. What are your thoughts on that? And whether it has gotten a little too saturated with like massive brown trout and exotic locations and things?

  Aaron

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, so it used to be I would pause or give someone a follow if I saw this huge brown trout or something. And there are so dang many of those on my Instagram these days, I'm more likely to unfollow someone if I keep seeing those.

  Katie

  I feel the same way. I see it and I've seen it a thousand times. I wanna see something I haven't seen before.

  Aaron

  Yeah, and plus I know that's not attainable for me in Texas, I'm not gonna go out and catch a huge brown trout. And it's, I mean, it's interesting. It's interesting to see a GT at Christmas Island or something. It's interesting to see a huge bone from Andros, or a peacock bass, or a golden dorado from Bolivia or wherever. That's really cool. And I want to know about that. I don't want a constant parade of that stuff. And I suppose I'd watch one film about it, but I don't need to see four. Chances are, if I ever get to do that, it will be a trip of a lifetime. I mean, it will be one time, right? And partly because there are just so many incredible fly fishing destinations and so many species to fish for, and life is short. And funds are limited for a lot of us, not for everyone, I guess, but, you know, I just don't have the time and money to do all of that. So, you know, if I get to some of it, that's great. Um, and I do think to your point, it does, it potentially cheapens the everyday experience that we have.

  Katie

  Right. Like your experience isn't as good as this person who was able to go to the Seychelles because, you know, they went to a place that not many people get to go and look what they caught there. All you get to fish for is trout. And it's like, well, I bet I know where they started.

  Aaron

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's really cool. Alvin Dedeaux, who he was the manager of that first fly shop in Texas. He may be the only fly fishing guide in Texas who actually played South by Southwest. He was the front man for a funk band back then. But Alvin, he's an Orvis endorsed guide. He's just an incredible human being and an incredible guide. He did a trip, his wife, Linnae, is also a fantastic guide and has an MS in aquatic science and just does a phenomenal job. Linnae took off and went to Argentina for a couple of weeks. Alvin went to the Seychelles. It was their end of the year trips, gifts to each other. And Alvin comes back from the Seychelles and does this whole video post on home waters. And he's like, "Yeah, it was great going to the Seychelles." Seychelles and catching triggers and catching GTs and doing this and doing that. He said, "But let's talk about the great fishing we have right here at home." And he did like the greatest hits reel from the previous year. And I'm like, "You know what? I mean, he's exactly right." I mean, put it into perspective. If you get to go do one of those things, that's awesome and you should treasure the experience. But if you don't, you're not really missing out, you know, and it almost the focus on huge trophy fish, the focus on exotic destinations feels a little bit like it's profaning the sacred to me, you know, does that make sense? Like, I think, I mean, I think fly fishing is, I mean, for me personally, it's such a special, has such a special place in my life, you know, as, you know, it's a contemplative and restorative of exercise and it's important to me. And it's important to me to be able to do it right here where I live or wherever I might live. I mean, I can't imagine a place where I'd live where I wouldn't be able to fly fish, you know.

  Katie

  Right, and remember, I mean, you have to remember too that your local fishing is exotic to somebody else. Like the fact that you've been talking about catching these cichlids that look like the Milky Way, I would love to catch a fish that looks like that because I've never caught one. Like that's an exotic, very interesting trip to me. And that's right in your backyard. And for other people, I get to go up all summer long and catch beautiful native cutthroats in alpine streams and not see a soul all day. And that might be on someone's bucket list when it's, for me, it's just a weekend during the summer.

  Aaron

  Yeah, that's so funny. I mean, 'cause that's the trip that I try to make every summer, right? To do something different. And I love it so much, and you get to do it every weekend. That's awesome.

  Katie

  Right, and I mean, for me, going saltwater, I've never been saltwater fly fishing, but that's a trip I'd really like to do. That's like a bucket list trip for me, regardless of what the species is. I just like to do some saltwater fishing. But there's plenty of people who grew up on the coast and that's normal for them. So I do think a lot of the extremely exotic locations, like the Seychelles, are probably not most people's backyard. There's probably a couple people there who they get to do that all the time, but for the most part that's going to be an exotic trip. But the majority of what you see, you know, these exotic destinations, there are people who live there and that's just their normal day to day. And I think it's just important to keep it in perspective that your everyday trip is probably someone's bucket list.

  Aaron

  Yeah, true. So I will continue to unapologetically post photos of, you know, six and eight inch long your sunfish on my Instagram because they give me great joy. And, um, uh, you know, I don't, I don't care if someone thinks I'm not, you know, that great of a, an angler because I don't have a 28 inch brown trout on there.

  Katie

  Right. The same conversation I was talking about earlier where we, where, uh, my friend and I were discussing, you know, the, the details of one of our favorite trips and, and kind of forgot to mention the fishing in that same conversation. We talked about what the, like what the fly fishing film tour has been like over the past couple years. And don't get me wrong, I still enjoy going and I like watching all the films. But we're kind of itching for something that feels a little more relatable. Like, there's only so many films I can watch in a row where my first thought is, well, I'll never be able to do this, where it's definitely fun to watch. But there's something really exciting about watching a film where it's a group of guys, and they're like, hey, we went to Montana. And we had this amazing trip together. And we caught these average-sized trout. But look at all our fun antics. and you can totally picture yourself being here. And if you wanted to do it, you know, two months from now, you could just pack up and do it. And there's just something really nice about seeing that and being like, oh, I wanna do that. Like I should call my friend and see if they wanna meet up and do a similar trip to this.

  Aaron

  Yeah, there are so many cool do it yourself trips you can do. And I know you had an episode recently where you were talking about doing yourself trips to Alaska, you know, which I've thought about as well. And I mean, I'm not super interested in salmon, but I'm like really interested in these huge native rainbow trout up there, you know? And so my cousin, one of my cousins, Bobby, I grew up with him in Rockport with fish together since I was a kid and we fly fish together now. And a couple of years ago, we made a trip to Colorado and had a great time. And he has been going up to Wyoming most every summer. and we have another friend who's a winter Texan, a snowbird who comes down to Rockport during the wintertime and catches the heck out of redfish on the fly. And then he goes back to Pinedale in the summer and, or, you know, in spring, spring through fall, and he catches these 20 inch, 24 inch cutthroat in these tiny little jumper cross tributaries of the Snake River. And it's a do-it-yourself trip. I mean, you can do that. First of all, because it's public land and there's a lot of, it's really easy access. So Bobby's been going up and doing that and I haven't been able to make that trip yet, but I want to and it's not, these are big fish. These are what I would call trophy fish or whatever, but they're native fish and it's something I can go do by myself. And it's a 20 hour car ride for me. And so it's achievable, right? And that's really what this book was about, was trying to make it easy for people to get out and do it on their own. I have a lot of friends who are guides. I love what they do. I value what they do. I think everyone should book a guided trip their first time in a new location, at least, just to learn, just to learn the water and maybe tune up your cast or something. But a lot of this is a lot of the waters around here. There are three rivers here where you really should have a guide at least the first time. The Guadalupe, the San Marcos, and the Colorado. But the other 13 or 15 streams in the book, just park your car or leave your Uber and walk in. It's easily doable by yourself.

  Katie

  Yeah, and there, I mean, you mentioned that Alaska episode. And the reason I wanted to do that was that it seems like a destination that feels really exotic, but actually isn't. You know, it's in the same country. You don't have to worry about any sort of customs or language barrier or anything like that. And it's relatively affordable compared to a lot of the more truly exotic destinations. But you still feel like you're getting out of your comfort zone a little bit. You know, you're flying over another country. You're getting to a place that's probably got a very different local culture than what you're used to. and you feel like you're out in the middle of nowhere, the same way you might feel in somewhere like Patagonia or Russia. But it's still totally doable and affordable, and that's why it really appealed to me, because I do, like everybody, like the idea of going on an exotic trip someday, but something like that actually feels achievable, and it's a lot easier to work toward a goal when you actually think you're going to be able to achieve it within the next couple of years, instead of just being like, "Well, someday," and that inevitably never happens.

  Aaron

  Yeah, yeah, I mean plus grizzly bears up there. I mean that's a little bit, you know crazy Yeah Yeah, no, I I totally I totally agree with that, but I've got a question for you so I know you've been getting into archery or bow hunting and Have you guys thought of doing like a An elk and cutthroat cast and blast or have you done that?

  Katie

  Um, let's see last year I did a deer and trout cast and blast, but it wasn't... 

  Aaron

  Oh yeah, cool.

  Katie

  I take that back. It wasn't a true cast and blast because it wasn't in the same day, but it was in the same season. I went out and I got my deer early on and then my boyfriend went out and got his deer I think a week later. So I went with him even though I had already filled my tag and I went fishing while he hunted. So it was a season -long cast and blast, but not a true. I think I shot a squirrel that day, so I guess that would be my cast and blast.

  Aaron

  Yeah, that counts. It counts in a very East Texas way. We were in Arizona in the White Mountains during the elk archery season, saw a ton of elk. We were chasing Apache trout and big browns and rainbows, wild fish in the Black River and the Little Colorado River and some other spots up there. We saw elk hunters everywhere. How cool would it be to fill your elk tag and catch fish? it would be a lot of work I guess that you got to pack the animal out that it'd be a lot of fun.

  Katie

  I think it'd be doable depending on what kind of experience they're looking for like you probably aren't gonna want to carry a full set of gear in for both and it's kind of hard to go hunting without a full set of gear so you'd have to sacrifice the fishing. I definitely take a tenkara rod hunting before thinking if I happen to cross over a stream I could pull it out and take a couple casts in the middle of the afternoon and I'm not gonna see anything but it's been we were we were hunting within walking distance of our of our truck so I just walked back and swapped gear out so that was easy enough but yeah I like the idea of maybe doing like a dedicated cast and blast where you're simultaneously doing both with an equal effort.

  Aaron

  So what do you think it is about bow hunting in particular and fly fishing? They seem to attract the same people, the two sports.

  Katie

  They do. I think of them as being equivalent and I'm not sure why but I think of rifle hunting is conventional fishing and bow hunting is fly fishing. I guess my my two thoughts are they both seem a little bit more primitive you know feathers tied on a hook and you know a stick and string versus a much more high-tech piece of equipment in a firearm or like a traditional lure I guess but maybe part of it's also that usually people get started in rifle hunting and conventional fishing and then transition over to bow hunting and fly fishing both for the reason of I've I feel like I've saturated my experience in in one activity and I want to experience it in a deeper way for for bow hunting it might be the idea of you have to get closer to an animal you have to be very quiet it's just a much more visceral experience I guess and for fly fishing I kind of feel the same way you're you feel a little bit more directly connected to what you're fishing for because it just feels a little bit more more primitive and maybe a little bit more finesse. I don't know what are your thoughts on that?

  Aaron

  No I agree with you I think it is I think it's I think it's a little bit more back to basics and you can't you know like I mean you can make it it's it's no sweat to make a hundred yard rifle shot right you got to get a little closer with your bow probably. And it's yeah it's it's just different you know it is more primitive in a way and it's something that that people I take fly fishing for the first time are surprised about where I'm like no no you don't have to you don't have to reel just strip the fish in you know with your other hand there you know that's all you have to do and they're like what it's just the string and the fish I'm like yeah pretty much I mean that's you know it's kind to primitive, you know? I don't know. It feels like a closer connection, I mean, in some way.

  Katie

  Yeah, and I know a lot of people, well, I don't know about a lot of people, but there's a community that equates fly fishing more with actual traditional bow hunting where you're not using a compound bow because they consider even that too much technology. I'm not anywhere near that point yet, but I think at some point it'd be fun to try it. For right now, just regular bow hunting feels primitive enough yeah

  Aaron

  no I think a compound bow is an an Orvis h3, accurate from any distance or whatever. And you know a longbow is a or a recurve is a fiberglass rod, I don’t know

  Katie

  yeah one step farther in that direction

  Aaron

  yeah yeah

  Katie

  well um on that note I think I think you might be my longest podcast yet at an hour.

  Aaron

  Oh

  Katie

  no no no that's a good thing I thoroughly enjoyed every part of this conversation. Do you just want to wrap up by sharing where people can find your book? I don't know when this episode is gonna air and even more importantly I don't know what's gonna be going on with the coronavirus by the time it does but when when is your book supposed to come out? Has there been any sort of effect from the coronavirus and either way how can people find your book if they want to want to order a copy of it?

  Aaron

  Yeah, so the book is available for pre-order everywhere. I think 51 different retailers, online retailers, including Amazon, of course, Barnes & Noble. The official publication date is May 1. I don't know because Amazon now is only shipping essential items prime, you know, the two-day thing. So there may be a little delay on shipping there, but what I'm encouraging people to do is to buy it, is to ask at their local fly shop. They, you know, any fly shop can get this book wherever they usually get their books. And if you want to support your local fly shop, and if your local fly shop doesn't want to order it or you can't get through to them, call my local fly shop. They are going to have a ton. Living Waters Fly Fishing and Round Rock and Real Fly Fishing Adventures down in Canyon Lake on the Guadalupe are both going to have a whole bunch of copies. They are also going to ship or deliver these copies at curbside, which we can still do here, as early as May 24th or April 24th maybe, so like a full week ahead of the May 1 release date. And I'll also go in and sign copies for whoever orders before then. All our book signing events Fishing Club presentations, our launch party, all of that's been canceled due to coronavirus. And in the grand scheme of things, my book is not a big deal. I mean, it's still gonna be out there. People can get it if they want it. I don't really care. I'm sorry that I'm not gonna have the big reunion with all my fishing buddies from over the years, but other than that, that's not that big of a deal. But the book is available online or through one of those fly shops.

  Katie

  Okay, yeah, and fingers crossed that by the time this airs that it should be out. I think I've been doing it every two weeks, so this might not come out for a couple months at the most, but either way, hopefully by then things have kind of calmed down and it should be available by that point, hopefully.

  Aaron

  If everything goes well. Yeah, I mean, man, what a crazy time, right, Katie? I mean, we're doing this during the coronavirus shelter in place orders. And it's-- I mean, it's nuts. It's a different world right now. And I almost hope we don't go back to the status quo exactly.

  Katie

  I feel the exact same way. I don't want to say I've enjoyed this because it's not a good thing for sure. But there's definitely aspects of it that I've really enjoyed, including the fact that we're all just kind of in this together and we're making it work. And I'm like, this should just go show that we can do this for anything. We should be able to come together as neighbors and look out for each other and go through things as a whole and not panic when something doesn't go exactly the way we expected it to.

  Aaron

  Yeah, 100%. I mean, it has, you know, the biggest deal for us is that our seven-year-olds, well, I mean, the biggest deal for us is my wife lost all of her training contracts through the spring, right? I mean, it was a huge economic hit, but I still have a job. I still have health insurance for family, and we'll make it through this. And it's nice to know we're not the only ones, right? Like you said, this is affecting everyone across the country, and some people in much more significant ways than it affects my family. So I mean, our seven-year-old had three Little League practices, was about to start spring Little League. He was so excited. Season canceled. You know, you know, the kids come home for spring break and they are not going back till next fall at this point, you know, so, but so it changes the paradigm and we get to, we get to figure out homeschooling. Our kids are learning old math now, cause we don't know new math and you know, it's, so they're going to do long division the way we did it, no more boxes. But it, you know, we're spending a lot more time with them. And we're doing science class on the river. And PE is on the river kicking a soccer ball in the yard. And we're doing Zoom meetings and Google Hangouts meetings with family members and with friends that we haven't talked to in months maybe. And it's cool. I mean, so some of it's cool. I mean, it's not all bad.

  Katie

  Yeah, if anything, I hope that this teaches us that something doesn't need to be done the way it is just because it's always been done that way. You know, so many people are learning to work from home or homeschool their kids or the school year ends early or whatever it may be. There's so many things out there that don't seem to have a good reason for why they're done. It's just how it's always been and people are scared of change. And I'm hoping that this kind of gives a wake up call, like, hey, society can still function in this very extreme situation. So maybe we should open our minds to, you know, thinking, rethinking things that have just been set in a certain way just for the sake of it. because nothing's ever shaken it up before.

  Aaron

  Yeah, 100%. And maybe we can be happier and more satisfied, more content with our lives too this way. So one of the drawbacks to Austin and the phenomenal growth we've had here over the last 10 years is that traffic is just horrible. I mean, it is truly a nightmare. And well, it was until about two weeks ago. I had a doctor's appointment this morning, It was just a routine physical. I drove the speed limit all the way down into central Austin and there was no traffic. So, the city council has been, you know, has been just really struggling about, you know, do we put in more light rail? Do we expand these already over-taxed highways? What do we do? You know, how are we gonna fix this infrastructure problem? Well, heck, maybe just let more people work from home. You know?

  Katie

  I've been feeling the same way. I'm like, the smog is cleared, roads are open. Like why can't we just do this all the time?

  Aaron

  Yeah, yeah I agree. So I don't know. So I'm hoping that the end result of this personally is that my wife sees the good sense in buying a Mercedes Sprinter and converting it into a camper.

  Katie

  Oh of course.

  Aaron

  And that we send the next year of Vagabonding across America to my favorite fly fishing destination. So think that's going to happen.

  Katie

  I mean, how could she not be on board with it?

  Aaron

  Well, right. I mean, right. I mean, I'm like, I'm like, Hey, you're, you're transitioning all your work to remote anyway and online, and we're already homeschooling the kids. I mean, come on, why not?

  Katie

  Right. No better time.

  Aaron

  Yep. That's it.

  Katie

  All right. Well, I'll, uh, I'll let you get going. I know, um, we've been going a while, but I really appreciate you coming on chat. This is probably one of my favorite chats I've had so far. I love the ones where we just, you know, follow all the rabbit trails and explore what we think about fly fishing and not just going through a list of questions. So I really appreciate our chat and really wanna thank you for your time.

  Aaron

  Yeah, Katie, I am so thrilled. I'm a big fan of your show and there's still a few episodes I've missed, including your conversation with your buddy. So I need to go back and listen to that one. But big fan of your show. I really like what you're doing and I am super grateful for the opportunity to talk to you and it's been just a ton of fun.

  Katie

  I really appreciate it. Well, let me know if you ever want to come back on. I'm happy to happy to chat fishing anytime So anytime you talk just let me know

  Aaron

  Yeah, and bring your boyfriend to Texas And honestly, maybe maybe the same time the so fly crew comes down. Although yeoman and Mitch are probably coming down sometime maybe in the fall or maybe next year and we're gonna do a We're gonna do an Austin, Rockport, And possibly South Texas where we have smoke and tarpon trip and I Mean you guys could just you guys could just double up on this. I mean bring yourselves down. We'll make a group Outing

  Katie

  yeah I might be open to that one of my friends and I have been talking about trying to do our first saltwater trip down in Texas because we we know we a friend of a friend has moved down there to start guiding So we're like, oh we could we could take him up on that So I mean we were originally talking about this fall Although no one's really sure what's going on right now just because no no one can plan their schedules but yeah we have talked about coming down this fall just to explore so I'll have to keep that in mind.

  Aaron

  Yeah awesome yeah give me a shout if you do.

  Katie

  Alright and that is all. As always if you liked what you heard I'd love for you to go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. If you've got a couple extra minutes a rating or review would also be much appreciated. It doesn't take too long and it makes a big difference on my end. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to fly fishing articles every two weeks, and you can find me on social media under my name Katie Burgert on GoWild or @fishuntamed on Instagram. I will see you all back here in two weeks. Bye everyone.

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