Ep 24: French Creek and the Magic of Home Waters, with Brenda Costa
Brenda Costa is the Executive Director of the French Creek Valley Conservancy, which is a private 501(c)3 non-profit land trust dedicated to maintaining and enhancing the exceptional water quality, natural habitat, biological diversity, and recreational opportunities of the French Creek Watershed in Northwest Pennsylvania. In this episode, Brenda shares her story with French Creek, how the FCVC works with landowners to protect the watershed, the amazing colonial and geologic history of the river, and the recreational opportunities available to people. An overarching theme of our discussion is the magic of having a home river like French Creek, which many people can probably relate to through their own small, local river.
Website: www.frenchcreekconservancy.org
Instagram: @Frenchcreekvalleyconservancy
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show, I'm talking to Brenda Costa, Executive Director of the French Creek Valley Conservancy. All right, folks, welcome to episode number 24 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I got a chance to sit down and talk to Brenda Costa about one of my favorite bodies of water, which is French Creek in Western Pennsylvania where I grew up. And selfishly, this episode was a little bit for myself learn a little bit more about the history, the ecology, recreational opportunities on French Creek. I know not everyone's going to be familiar with this river or even this area, but I think the value in this episode goes beyond just learning about this specific piece of water. Brenda works with the French Creek Valley Conservancy, which is an organization that is dedicated to protecting the watershed. And even though this show is specifically about French Creek, I think it would be good for anyone who has that home piece of water that even if they don't get to go visit it all the time or fish it, that they still consider it their home water and it's still something that they think is worth protecting. The French Creek Valley Conservancy is not the only organization out there that's like this. There's plenty of other organizations that focus on the protection of a specific piece of water. In this case, they use things like conservation easements and donations and outright buying of properties in order to protect this watershed for future generations. So if you do have a special lake or river that means a lot to you, I think this episode might resonate with you and it might be worth looking into whether there is a similar organization that fights for the protection of the water you enjoy. Maybe you can find ways to get involved or at the very least, like I said, I learned a lot from Brenda today just about the history of the water, the threats it's facing, just a lot of stuff I didn't know. So at the very least, maybe you can find out if there's someone you can reach out to and just get to know your water a little bit better. So without further ado, here is my chat with Brenda Costa. How are you faring over there?
Brenda
Oh, we're hanging in here. It's just difficult working at home. I have two teenage boys and my husband is a teacher, so everybody's home and hard to make everything work, but Oh, I'm sure. Everybody's doing their best.
Katie
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of nice that the whole world's going through this. So it's, you know, everyone understands that everyone's going to be a little bit, a little bit slower than they normally are. So it's kind of nice to have that collective understanding. Yes. Oh, otherwise things going pretty well.
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. The sun is shining today. And so that was a good thing because we've had so much, so many gray skies and rainy days. And so today was a blue sky cloudless day. I had to go out and take some pictures of some of the boat launches on French Creek for a project we're working on. So it was nice to get out in the sun a little bit.
Katie
Yeah, I've noticed an actually an increase in like the number of people outside around here. Like everyone's walking their dog now. And I'm just like, you know, you can you can do this anytime. You don't have to just be doing a quarantine.
Brenda
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's kind of funny because I don't know what they do with their free time otherwise. But apparently they're not spending their time outdoors, but they are now.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, it's a good thing, but I've, you know, the number of people at the park, I'm like, this park is always here. You can just, you can come hike on these trails anytime you want, but it's just kind of funny.
Brenda
Are you familiar with the Ernst Trail here?
Katie
A little bit.
Brenda
So it's about five miles long. And my husband and I went to ride our bikes the other day. And I kept count. We passed 104 people going out for five miles and then of course passed the same 104 coming back. But I could not, I've never seen that many people on that trail, but it was a rare day of sunshine and it's a paved trail. So people are out there with their strollers and little kids on bikes, but it was crazy. We were certainly not socially distancing on this six foot wide trail with all these people.
Katie
That's how I feel too. trying to get out and about and away from everyone, but when you're all, you know, I'm on trails that are about two feet wide and you're having to step off the trail to get away from people. And we're just like, we're all, we're all breathing the same cloud of air over this trail right now.
Brenda
Yes. I'm glad it's out in the open and the wind is blowing. Hopefully it's blowing germs away from us, but I can't stay inside. I will literally go outside and sit on our front steps sometimes just because no matter what I have to be outside every day. So, yeah.
Katie
Our dog's been having a great time because we have this retaining wall that kind of overlooks our fence so she can see the whole neighborhood. And now that there's even more dogs out, she's just out on patrol all day, just letting us know when anyone is coming up or down our street, which is pretty much at any given moment there's a couple.
Brenda
Well, we don't have a dog and my boys keep telling me that we really should get a dog because people seem to be faring better through a pandemic if they could be walking their dog all the time.
Katie
Yeah, true. I heard adoptions are up right now, which I guess if you're working from home, this is not a bad time to get a puppy since, you know, that's I think what deters a lot of people is I want a dog, but I need to be here when it's a puppy so I can potty train it.
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
So, I mean, I guess that's a positive as long as, as long as people are good owners, right? That adoption rates up. Perfect. Well, we can jump right in then. I normally just start by asking people about their fishing background, but lately I've been talking to a couple people who aren't necessarily directly related to the fishing world and I think that this conversation kind of falls into that basket. So I know you did mention that you do like to fish, so if you'd like to talk about your fishing background, I'd be more than happy to hear about it. But if you want to talk about your background related to French Creek or what you're doing now, I'd also be happy to hear about that. So whichever one you want to run with.
Brenda
Well, I will start with fishing 'cause that's a different topic of conversation for me. (laughing) When I was a little girl, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, but my grandparents lived in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And I used to go visit my grandfather and he had no grandsons, only granddaughters, but he was bound and determined to get somebody out there fishing with him. So at a very early age, I got introduced to fishing and we would go out and just catch tons of fish. And I was so excited about it. But then when we got back to the house, he would lay them out on the back patio and he would say, "Well, now you can clean them." (laughing) And that part didn't appeal to me quite so much. Not what you signed up for. (laughing) Right, right. But I've always enjoyed fishing. And now I have two teenagers and both boys and both really enjoy fishing. We've created some of our family vacations around fishing. We actually were in Myrtle Beach last summer and were supposed to be on a fishing charter but ended up on a shark charter. Oh. So ended up catching some sharks last summer. But it's been a nice way for us to kind of spend time together outdoors as a family. So it's really, it's something that we look forward to every year. We're anxiously awaiting the start of trout season here, but we've been doing a little bit of fishing in private ponds and such in advance of that. And so when does trout season start? April 15th.
Katie
Okay. And is that what you got your start on? Fishing or what did you grow up fishing for?
Brenda
So when my grandfather was taking me out, we were catching sunfish.
Katie
Okay.
Brenda
But he always liked to catch shad. He was a big shad fisherman. But I really enjoy the act of fishing as much or more so than actually catching fish because I really enjoy spending time outdoors. But my husband and I had done some trout fishing before our kids were born. And then, you know, we took our kids when they were young to places that there were guaranteed catch. (laughing) But lots of sunfish, you know, just easy things for kids to catch, but really fun for them.
Katie
You know, I think that's a, like a great way to get kids started, either with panfish or one of those, like guaranteed that you're gonna catch something places. As much as I feel like as an adult, it's not something that appeals to me, but when it comes to kids, I think it's a lot more important that they actually catch something to keep them entertained.
Brenda
Yes, absolutely.
Katie
And to keep them coming back for more. So I think both of those options, because I kind of feel like pan fishing can at times be guaranteed catch as well. So yeah, I think that's a great way to encourage kids to want to keep coming back for more. And at that point, hopefully they're a little more okay with not catching something as long as they've had success in the past.
Brenda
Right. And we just bought our oldest son a fly rod for his 18th birthday. And we made an investment in a good fly rod, but I said to him, you know, you'll have this forever if you take care of it. you should have this rod for a long time and hopefully it'll bring you many, many years of enjoyment fly fishing. So he's anxious to get out and start doing that.
Katie
Now, do you fly fish too? Or is this something that he just expressed interest in and you're kind of just sending him on his way?
Brenda
He's on his own. (both laughing) He is on his own. I have not fly fished before, but I have some friends who have some experience fly fishing who are gonna help them out.
Katie
Oh, awesome. I actually have a buddy back in Franklin who guides there. So if you want me to hook your son up with him, just let me know, I can pass his info along.
Brenda
Oh, that would be great. That would be great. 'Cause again, it's one of those things where it kind of harkens back to when he was a really young child and you need to catch something. I want him to catch something fly fishing. (laughing) This continues to appeal to him.
Katie
Well, at least if he already likes fishing, hopefully he can stick it out until he gets the hang of it. I was in that same boat too, where I went out for, I think the first time I went fly fishing, I was out for 10 hours and I didn't even get a bite, but I just had to come back for more and it was right. And it warmed up to it, but, but yeah, it's a little frustrating when you first get started. Right. Awesome. Well, how did you, um, then get, I saw you have a kind of geology background. Um, so how did you, well, I guess, how did you get your start in that? And then how did you transition that over to what you're currently doing?
Brenda
Yeah. So it's interesting. As I said, I used to go to Williamsport to visit my grandparents when I was little. And we would drive from Buffalo, which is perfectly flat, and then drive across into the valley and ridge of Pennsylvania. And as a young child, I was amazed by how those mountains looked. I'd never seen anything like that. So I had curiosity about that kind of stuff, landforms from a very young age. And I started off as an environmental science major in college and then when I started taking geology classes, I really found an interest in that direction. So I ended up getting my undergraduate degree in geology and I worked in geologic consulting for more than 20 years. I worked some for the oil and gas industry, but a lot of what I did was groundwater consulting. I worked on finding groundwater wells, groundwater supplies for municipal, industrial and commercial clients. I worked on groundwater remediation projects if there were sites where there had been spills or industrial issues, cleaning up, remediating those sites. But I had worked for a firm for many, many years and that firm had a kind of a meteoric rise through the Marcellus Shale gas explosion here in Western Pennsylvania. And it really changed the character of the firm and made for very challenging conditions when the bottom dropped out of that market almost as fast as it came. So I ended up leaving that firm, and there was this opening as executive director at French Creek Valley Conservancy. And a friend of mine shared the job description with me. And what really appealed to me was not only did it have a connection to the environment, the outdoors, open spaces, but there was also an educational component to it. I come from multi-generations family of teachers. I have a lot of teachers and educators in my family. And I always felt like maybe I should have done that at some time because I really enjoy working with students. So when there was this education and outreach component to this job, I was excited about that as well. And then while I had been working for the consulting firm, I had actually been going to a Penn State satellite campus not far from here and getting my master's degree at the same time. I got my MBA with a focus in marketing from Penn state. And so putting some of those skills into the position of executive director, it just kind of brought all three of these passions together for me. And people often ask me, how do you get a job in conservation? And I say, well, you work more than 20 years at a different kind of job, and then one just shows up. You know, I don't know the career path of how you get to where I got, But I'm really happy that I did. This is really a wonderful position and it's really satisfying to work in conservation.
Katie
You know, I think that's a kind of a common thread amongst people I've talked to who now work within the nonprofit world is that it's not something that they were seeking out from the start. It's something that they kind of, it kind of fell into their lap at the right time. And you know, the majority of them have since been there for many years and have no intention of leaving. something that they stumbled across and it turned out to be a perfect fit, but very few of them were aiming for that from the start.
Brenda
Right, right. I work with a lot of college students and as I said people ask me how you get into a career of conservation and you don't certainly don't start off as the executive director, but a lot of organizations are very thinly staffed. I often get asked about having interns and we don't have We have paid internships. We just don't have that kind of budget. And so opportunities to get into this kind of work can be challenging. One of the best ways to go about doing it is starting as a volunteer. But yeah, very often, I think people just kind of stumble into these types of positions. And I don't have any intention of going anywhere either. It was a challenging transition from the for-profit arena to working for a nonprofit, but it really is very satisfying to do good work and for a good reason.
Katie
Now, were you personally connected to French Creek at this point just having been in the area or did you get more of your connection to it having taken this position and suddenly being thrust into the world of its conservation?
Brenda
in the area, you certainly have some connection to French Creek. We drive over it many times a day. It's always kind of in the background, but it wasn't until a few years before I came on board at the Conservancy. One year, my husband bought kayaks for us for our anniversary. And so we knew nothing about kayaking, had never gone before, and I had just mentioned an interest in it. And so he bought these kayaks for us. And our first trip was we put in at Sager Town and paddled to Meadville to Bicentennial Park. And it's amazing because just moments after you leave the launch in Sager Town, you forget where you are. And that was really kind of a magical moment where we got away from the roadway. We couldn't hear the car traffic anymore and we were just floating along and it was really a magical moment. So that's what made me fall so in love with French Creek and certainly since working for the Conservancy, that has really deepened. But it's really a very special place and so many people tell me that they have their own magic moment or personal story about why they love French Creek in this area so much.
Katie
I have to agree with you on the fact that you kind of feel like you disappear away from where you started when you're on it. So just to give a little background on the topic of this episode real quick, it's just that I also grew up very near French Creek. And it was my home river. And I still consider it my home river, even though I live in Colorado now. This is in Western Pennsylvania. but it was where I spent my entire summer as a child. And I just wanted to, I guess, honor might not be the right word, but kind of honor it by giving it a little more attention, which is why I wanted to talk to you. And as much as it probably won't be directly relevant to a lot of people, just because unless you live in that area, you probably never even heard of it. But at the same time, I think that a lot of people can probably connect with it in that they probably have a very similar situation, a river that they grew up along that it means a lot to them even if they don't get to visit it very often. Like you said, the reason that it really connected with me was that, like you said, as much as it goes along, I think for the most of it, it runs along a road at any point. There's a road at least on one side of it. It's very easy to forget that. When you're on the road, you can see the river without a problem, but when you're on the the river, um, you just forget that the road's even there unless you're going under a bridge or something. Right. Um, and I think that, you know, I don't, I don't know how unique that is to French Creek or if it's just, you know, when you're, when you're that into whatever you're doing on the river that maybe you just tune things out, but it just has a way of, of taking you out of the outside world when you're, when you're there, they're swimming or kayaking or whatever you're doing.
Brenda
Yeah, absolutely. And even in the southern part of the watershed, I hadn't paddled too much of that until the last few years. And in those areas, there is far less development and fewer houses. And it really feels like you're in the middle of nowhere. There's some sections where there's just huge hemlocks lining the creek and everything else just disappears. All you see is the river and the trees. And most times we see a bald eagle and every time we see a heron and I don't think I've been on the Creek that I haven't seen a heron
Katie
If you just by accident, as you float down, you know, that flies down below you and then you float down and there it is again, and I just kind of play leapfrog. My section was, uh, we'd always put in a bit Utica and then float down to Polly's ice cream shop.
Brenda
Oh, yes.
Katie
We have a cottage right above Polly's. So it's, you know, we'd usually stop right, right above it and then maybe take the tubes down to Polly's. But yeah, I think that section is less developed than I saw in Meadville area.
Brenda
Yeah. And interestingly, so getting back to my geology background, that portion of the creek is very different in character because the northern section of the watershed has been influenced by glaciation. Much of the northern part of the watershed has had multiple glaciers advance and retreat across this northwest corner of Pennsylvania. But when you get down towards the southern end of the watershed, there is the moraine, and we know Moraine State Park is another feature that's here in Western Pennsylvania, but there's been no glaciation on the southern part of French Creek. And so the character there is very different. It's the greatest change in elevation in that bottom part, southern part of the watershed, and a much deeper incised valley than in the northern part. So the character really changes along the length of the river. It's really interesting.
Katie
Now, where does that glaciation, like what region are we talking about here? Just like on a map, some towns or landmarks.
Brenda
So, you know, the glaciers advanced and retreated back and forth across Lake Erie and the Great Lakes. So it was coming in a Northwest to Southeast direction across the northwest corner of Pennsylvania. But sort of between that Utica and Franklin area that you were talking about is where the terminus of the glacial influence would have been. And so there's a change in the character of the creek along there.
Katie
OK. I probably don't have much experience, then, with the glaciated section. Because apart from spending a little bit of time when I was in college in the Meadville section and a little bit around Saegertown. I haven't really explored much above that. So that's kind of the northernmost point I think I've reached, but I know the southern part really well. So that's what I think of.
Brenda
Yeah, so up in the area of Cambridge Springs, the creek has just tons of meanders. The creek winds around. It takes a very long time to get from point A to point B. And I once learned that lesson painfully by inadvertently agreeing to paddle much further than I thought I was paddling. But it's a really interesting section. And a lot of the area there is lined by oxbow lakes and wetland features, very different than those deeper valleys that you see down towards Utica and Franklin, the Southern end of the watershed. Interesting. Yeah. You'll have to come, come back this way and paddle that part.
Katie
I, I've always thought it'd be fun to do like a multi-day, um, trip where I just like go way up and just have find places to camp along the way. Um, but I haven't gotten a chance to do it yet. So it's on my bucket list.
Brenda
At some point, right. Well, I paddle often throughout the season. And last year I was trying to get all the way from union city. at the Union City Dam is about the farthest north you can paddle, and all the way to Franklin. And I never did get that Union City section done. So this year I'll have to start over again and see if I can get it all paddled.
Katie
It's not a bad project to have to do over.
Brenda
Right. And there's days I can get paid to paddle.
Katie
That's never a bad thing. There's worse projects to volunteer for.
Brenda
Right.
Katie
Well, I know the three things that we talked about, maybe wanting to discuss today regarding French Creek are the history behind it, the recreation opportunities, and the biodiversity. If those three still sound good to you, I might just let you take the reins and decide which you think would be best to start with. I mean, maybe history makes the most sense, if that sounds good to you.
Brenda
Sure, yeah. So there's two different aspects of history to talk about, and we'll start with the colonial history. So French Creek actually was named by our first president, George Washington, long before he was president. George Washington was sent to the area in 1753 by then Virginia governor, Dinwiddie. He sent young George, who was a surveyor at the time, to the area to take a message to the French. The French had set up Fort LaBeouf up in the northern part of the watershed. And George was sent on the mission to come tell them that they should get out, that they weren't welcome in this territory. And when George was making his way through this area, he was keeping a notebook. And that's how we know that George was the one who named French Creek. And his notebook is still in existence. But prior to George being in the area, the French Creek was referred to as Riviere-le-Bouffe. And there's some mystery about that, because people have attributed that name to the fact that the French saw bison in the area. But now there's some disagreement about if that was actually true. But when George came to the area, he referred to it as the French Creek. Now, I'm not sure why you would name a creek after your enemies who you're coming to inject. Right.
Katie
Get out of here. We named this after you, though.
Brenda
Right. And also that he called it a creek, because you know, having spent time in Meadville and to the south, it's very much a river. It's a creek up to the northern part of the watershed, but very much a river when it gets to Meadville. So George was passing through the area in the winter of 1753. And on his way back to the south, he and his guide actually capsized their raft in the creek in December. And Western Pennsylvania in the winter is no time to be in the water. And so they were able to save themselves and make their way safely to shore, but you can imagine that the history of our country would be very, very different if George and his guide had perished that day when they capsized into an icy French Creek. Oh yeah. So it's a really interesting colonial story.
Katie
Now, where do you say he capsized or did he mention?
Brenda
It was down near Franklin. It was towards the Southern end. But yes, it was mid-December and that's a chilly time of year to be in the water here.
Katie
Oh yeah.
Brenda
So, yeah.
Katie
Now I do have to correct you on one thing though. I do believe that it's actually a crick. Oh yes. (laughing)
Brenda
Yes, that's how you can tell I'm not a Pennsylvania native. (laughing)
Katie
So I grew up, I grew up thinking that a crick was a river and a creek was a small stream. I actually thought that that was what differentiated it. So if you asked me what, you know, Allegheny was a river. You know, any sort of small wooded brook would be a creek. And then, you know, this medium-sized river that French Creek falls into would be a crick.
Brenda
Right.
Katie
I thought that was the actual hierarchy.
Brenda
Yes, I hear that often. I hear that often. People who can tell I'm not from Western Pennsylvania because I don't say crick and I also say Cochranton incorrectly. They always tell me that that should be Cochranton.
Katie
Oh, I have to agree with you on that one. I'm going to be on your side. It's Cochranton.
Brenda
I give myself away every time. But so, I mean, that's part of the colonial history. And there's significant Native American history here as well. There is a scout camp right now, the Custaloga Town Scout Camp. There's significant Native American history. There's been a Native American settlement on that property for a very, very long time. And actually, Mercyhurst University has been doing archaeological work there, looking into what some of the evidence and remnants of Native American settlements in that area have been. And there's a number of other Native American sites along the creek. So lots of colonial history. And sometimes French Creek is referred to as a colonial stream because much of the character of it is unchanged. We're very fortunate that we are in an area where there's not significant development. So that's the colonial history. The geologic history, which is really interesting, as I said, there was quite a few eras of glaciation, with glaciers advancing and retreating back and forth across Lake Erie. But French Creek originally flowed to the north into Lake Erie.
Katie
Really? I did not know that.
Brenda
Yeah. And its original headwaters were actually over to the east of where we are now, a very different flow than the present day flow of the creek. But through those glaciers advancing and retreating, eventually the flow into Lake Erie was blocked by the glaciers. So French Creek, over time, carved a new path and began flowing to the south, as it does now. So it's that story and that history that brings the incredible biodiversity to French Creek. Because French Creek retains some of the biology from all of those different areas, that's what brings such incredible biodiversity. The original headwaters over to the east of where we are now, some biology contributed from Lake Erie, and then also some contributed from the Allegheny River, where French Creek flows now and discharges into the Allegheny River, it's collection of biology from all three of those areas that makes French Creek have the incredible biodiversity that it has.
Katie
That is so interesting. And that was on my list to ask you is what... 'Cause I've heard, and I don't know if this is actually correct, but I know it's gotta be at least close, that it is the most biodiverse stream east of the Mississippi. I don't know if it actually is, but I know it's gotta be up there if it's not. I wasn't sure what caused that.
Brenda
Yeah, I always hate to use those definitions. I hear those things all the time that it's the most biodiverse East of Mississippi. It's the most biodiverse in Pennsylvania. I don't know any of those things for a fact, but it certainly has an incredible amount of biodiversity and has to be one of the most biodiverse waterways in the Eastern United States. And it is, you know, the contribution from those three different sources that brings this incredible biodiversity.
Katie
Yeah, I'm sure that maybe depends on how you define biodiversity. I mean, obviously, I'm sure it mostly boils down to number of species, but at the end of the day, I'm sure depending on who you ask, you'll get different numbers. But you can even kind of just see it if you go. I've seen so many different species in there personally. If I go to any given river around here, I can expect to find a handful of species of fish. And in French Creek, I think I by accident caught at least eight or nine species of fish, just not even targeting anything, just fishing. And I obviously haven't caught probably a quarter of all the species that could be caught in there either. So yeah, it's apparent even if you just go visit it and look.
Brenda
Yeah, I think what's really amazing is, you know, most of the main stem of French Creek and the tributaries have not been Very heavily degraded. There's not a lot of development But you do have this section where French Creek flows through the city of Meadville, which has an incredible Industrial past and and not too distant past and a few years ago We took some educators out into the creek right at Centennial Park, which is right in the middle of the city of Meadville. And we just had everybody take their shoes off and wade out in the water. It was very shallow over the summer. And we were just looking around at what we were seeing in the creek. And we found shells from four different species of mussels just a few steps away from the boat launch here in the middle of the city of Meadville. We had some snooper buckets that have the plexiglass bottoms on the bottom so you can look through. Saw a number of different species of fish and a lot of different macroinvertebrates. And it was amazing. Right there in what is probably the most degraded and industrial-influenced part of the creek, there was still an incredible amount of life. But I've been out on some other projects, two summers ago, there's a gentleman who's doing a fish survey on Cusawago Creek, which is one of the major tributaries to French Creek, and we were doing a small fish survey there, and we found dozens and dozens and dozens of species of darters, you know, a small species of the, or part of the perch family. And it was just incredible to me how many, in a hundred yards of area that we were surveying, we found more than 2000 species of these darters. So even in the major tributaries, there's incredible biodiversity as well.
Katie
What causes the clarity and the health of the river? I know you mentioned that Meadville is probably the most industrial part that it runs through, and that's just a short section of it. But there's a lot of agricultural lands in that area. And it's definitely not in the middle of nowhere. Even when it's not running through industrial Meadville, it's still running through pretty much every town that it comes near. And what causes it to be so clean and clear and healthy enough for all these species when it isn't really out in the middle of nowhere, which is, I feel like what you picture when you think of a very beautiful, clean river.
Brenda
Right. I think part of that can be credited to the riparian buffers along the banks of the main stem of French Creek and the tributaries. The riparian buffers are incredibly important. Not only are they there to stabilize the creek banks, you know, all of the trees and shrubs and plants, holding the roots from them, holding those creek banks in place. But they also slow any overland flow as it's coming into French Creek and really act as a filter and sort of a sponge to try to clean the water before it makes its way into the creek. There are certainly places, as I'm paddling along each summer, unfortunately, I see some agricultural fields where people are planting crops and having agricultural operations right up to the edge of the creek, which is unfortunate because that's always where the biggest cut banks are. And the banks are starting to fall into the creek. But a lot of places, there is a very good, thick, strong riparian buffer to both keep the creek banks in place stabilized and to help clarify water before it's making its way into the creek. Probably, certainly there's an effect from agriculture from chemical uses, but the biggest influences on French Creek at this time are too much water when we have these extreme weather events. We just had one this week, really significant rainfall, and the creek was over its banks and dark brown for a few days. So that, you know, extreme precipitation events and stormwater management in each of these small towns, there's a facet of stormwater management, making sure that not too great a volume of water is making its way into the creek. But then the sedimentation, and some of that comes from erosion along those cut banks at agricultural fields or other places where there's significant erosion going on. But it's also, we have a lot of dirt and gravel roads in this area, so there can be a lot of overland wash that washes sediment into the creek. So the excess water and sedimentation are probably the two biggest threats to the creek.
Katie
I don't wanna make you rank what's the most harmful thing for a river versus the least harmful, But in the grand scheme of things, would you say that the fact that sedimentation and just the excess water are the biggest threats to French Creek, would you say that that is a better case scenario than a lot of other rivers? Or are those also major factors that cause a lot of damage? Versus something like pollution or things like that, like the direct dumping of harmful chemicals into the river. Right. Is it a better case scenario or is it just a different scenario?
Brenda
I think it's a different scenario because when we're talking about what makes French Creek so special and valuable is its biodiversity. And the species that we're talking about here are very dependent on clean, clear water. You have the Eastern Hellbender, which is the largest salamander in North America, recently named the Pennsylvania State Amphibian. If you've never seen an Eastern Hellbender, you need to look up what these charming things look like because they have a face only a mother and a director of a land conservancy could love. I just think they're the most wonderful things, but they breathe through their skin. They're actually, they have a lot of excess skin on them to increase surface area so they can absorb more oxygen. But obviously they need clean, clear, moving water so that they can breathe through the surface of their skin. And the Eastern Hellbenders range has shrunk considerably over the last few decades. And they're a very important species. So we also have dozens of species of freshwater mussels, also very dependent on clean, clear water and actually they filter the water as well. So they in a way contribute to the clarity of the water. But both with the hellbender burrows and mussel habitats, those can get all silted in and really be harmful to those particular species. So other places may have more, I guess, serious issues with significant pollution in their waterways, but for us, the sedimentation is a really serious issue for the species that we do have that are very special and unique. Our freshwater mussels, we have more than two dozen species. This number varies who you ask, but that last reported, I believe it was 27 species of freshwater mussels. And the entire continent of Europe only has eight species of freshwater mussels. So we have a lot of them and quite a few of them are threatened or endangered species. So for us, maybe pollution is not the greatest problem, but sedimentation that impacts these threatened and endangered species certainly is.
Katie
Okay, so it's like if you walked up and took a cup full of water, it's not something that would be deemed toxic or anything like that, but for the species that are there, they happen to require a type of water that is compromised when there's too much sediment.
Brenda
That's right. Yeah. And I mean, sedimentation is a pollution. It certainly is in its own right. And that's not to say that the water is pristine and drinkable. I'm sure there are things going into the water that shouldn't be. But for the most part, much of French Creek is in really good condition, which sometimes poses a challenge for us. If we had a situation like when the Cuyahoga River was on fire, that brings to people's attention that there's seriously a problem. When we're saying, well, our river is mostly clean, so help us keep it that way, that's little harder argument. Fair enough. Yeah. An emergency situation.
Katie
It's hard to convince people that it's worth protecting when it doesn't seem to be in need.
Brenda
Right. Well, and I think the other thing to keep in mind, and it's whether in our watershed or wherever anyone lives, almost everyone in the French Creek watershed drinks groundwater. As I said, my background was doing water consulting And I think people forget where their water comes from. And in Meadville and the surrounding areas, either you're drinking public water that comes out of large groundwater wells, or you're drinking private water that comes out of a shallow groundwater well. But part of taking care of the French Creek watershed is taking care of the groundwater as well. And I think people forget that part of it.
Katie
Sure. So maybe this would be, I know we were going to talk about recreation too, but it almost seems more fitting to jump in and quickly talk about the French Creek Valley Conservancy's work with French Creek since we're on the topic of how people are trying to conserve it and protect it. And since that's more, I think, in the realm of what you're working toward as your mission, do you think it makes more sense to kind of jump in with that quickly before we cover for recreation, which I think is going to be more of an uplifting note to end on.
Brenda
Sure. Well, our work is uplifting. It definitely is.
Katie
Sure, sure. True.
Brenda
So French Creek Valley Conservancy is an accredited land trust, and we work to conserve land within the French Creek watershed. The best way to conserve and protect a river is to conserve and protect the land around it. So right now, we have about 2,400 acres under permanent protection. And I know I've had some conversations with some land trusts out in the West, in Colorado and Wyoming. And they probably have one preserve that's 2,400 acres in itself. For us, in Western Pennsylvania, here, things are far more fragmented, smaller parcels of land, private ownership of smaller parcels of land. So 2,400 acres to us is a big deal. But we have properties that we own outright. And then we have other properties that we have protected with a conservation easement. There is actually a restriction in the deed for the land that says no development or limited development can occur on that property. A landowner retains the ownership of the land, but we have this permanent protection built in for the property. And many of our properties are along the main stem of French Creek or other of the major tributaries. Some of them are not along a waterway at all, but maybe they are protecting an area that has a significant wetland or an area adjacent to a headwaters to a stream. But so we're challenged. We're a small organization. But we do a lot of work in education and outreach to supplement our land conservation work. We can't buy or protect all the acreage in the French Creek watershed, but we do our best to educate people of why they should care and why they should support our work and why they should be good stewards of the watershed. So in addition to our land protection work, We do a lot of in-school programming. We see thousands of students every year in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade. And now we've been branching out and doing some middle school, high school, and college programs as well. Do a lot of community outreach. And then our largest event every year is our annual French Creek cleanup. Last year, we had 825 volunteers register to help us clean up in the French Creek watershed. And we ended up collecting over 43,000 pounds of garbage- Whoa. --throughout the watershed.
Katie
How many of those were tires?
Brenda
Oh, unfortunately, there's a lot of tires. But it's really amazing. When I say 43,000 pounds, people think that there's a car chassis sitting in the middle of main stem French Creek or something. And it's really not that. We've been having the cleanup for, I think, 27 years now. And we've actually cleaned the waterways up pretty significantly, to the point now that we are focusing on some other areas to clean up garbage for our annual cleanup. So we actually had had people complaining about not finding enough garbage.
Katie
Well, that's a great problem to have. And that's impressive.
Brenda
Thank you.
Katie
Because we do cleanups around here, And there's never a shortage of things to pick up. Granted, it's a lot of smaller creeks, so a lot of the things we're picking up are cigarette butts and the like. I definitely have seen a lawnmower in French Creek before, so there are some bigger things.
Brenda
And shopping carts, there's always a competition to see how many shopping carts you can get.
Katie
You can carry the rest of the garbage out in the shopping cart if you find it early. But that's awesome though, that you're essentially running out of garbage, 'cause I mean, what a great problem to have.
Brenda
Yeah, it is. It is. And I understand people get a bunch of kids excited, and they want to take them out to do a cleanup. And then there's three pop cans for a team of 20 kids. That's not fun. So this past year, we actually had one of the schools help us clean up a property that had been donated to us that had a dump on it. And so we went out, and we made sure that they were in a safe situation and had lots of adults out there with them. But they collected thousands of pounds in a dumpster on their own from a property that had been donated to us. And the benefit of that, not only encouraging them and having them feel like valuable volunteers, but that was a huge help to us. Because otherwise, we have to pay for someone to do that, incur the cost of having that cleanup done. So that kind of work really helps us at the Conservancy.
Katie
Sure, 'cause I mean, the creek cleanups is as necessary as they are. You don't need to do them in a sense, especially if there's not as much to collect, that could be sacrificed for something else. But if you have a property donated to you, I assume that you have to get it in working order. If that's a property you're now going to be managing. So that sounds like a job that would have had to be done regardless. Whereas a creek cleanup, it's great to do, but it's not necessarily something that is mandatory to be done if it's not in vital need.
Brenda
Yeah, and we're actually moving sort of away from the cleanup model to have it be a watershed wide stewardship day and coming up with some other stewardship projects to do as well. We had a team working on removing invasive species from a property. We had a team that went out to the wildlife refuge not far from here and helped them with some work for a day. So when we are able to motivate that many volunteers help us on a day. We want them to be productive, not just so that they feel like they're being productive, but to actually help us achieve some of this stewardship work. As I said, we have 2,400 acres of land. And my staff, right now, we have two full-time employees and two part-time employees. So we don't have an office full of staff to go out and get these kind of things accomplished. We rely quite a bit on volunteers.
Katie
Now, how do the conservation easements work? If you're a private landowner and you're not looking to sell or donate your land entirely to the conservancy, how does the process of creating a conservation easement work?
Brenda
So all of our work, we're only working with willing landowners. These are people who are interested in some conservation goal. So if they're interested in having a conservation easement, we sit down and talk with them. We have an employee who is a land protection specialist. He sits down and talks with them to understand what their conservation goals are. Why do they love the property? What do they think is important about it? What are the special aspects of the property that they would like to see conserved? And so then we also look at what some of the biological conservation values of the property are. Is there an area of the property that is a wetland? Is there a forested section? what parts of the property should be under the most protection and what maybe could be under a lesser degree of protection. But so we work on that with the landowner, and then we come to an agreement about what limitations will be on each section of the property. There's three different levels of protection on a property. In the high protection zone, there can be no development or change to the conservation value the property at all. But then there, the two other levels of protection, there could be things done. You could have the area around their house, they can mow the lawn, but if that was a high protection area, that wouldn't be allowed. But so we're working with landowners to meet their goals first and foremost. But then the conservation easement is just written up and amended to the deed. So that stays with the property in perpetuity. The landowner is welcome to sell the property and someone else can buy it, but the conservation easement is forever. So if a new property owner takes ownership of the property, we meet with them and we talk to them about what the conservation easement actually means and what they're able to do on the property and what restrictions there are. But the property is permanently protected, even though the ownership might change.
Katie
And how is that enforced? I mean, I would hope that anyone who opts into this, I'm thinking more of if somebody buys the property and in their head they're thinking like okay, okay. But say it is something as simple as mowing the lawn. How is that enforced if whoever bought the property would then violate that restriction?
Brenda
So as an accredited land trust, we have standards and practices we have to adhere to. And one of those is that we have to visit our protected properties regularly. So at least once a year, we monitor a property and we visit it. And if it is a conservation easement, we talk with the landowner. And if all of a sudden they're riding their four wheelers in the high protection zone, we have a conversation with them about why that's not okay.
Katie
Okay. So you have someone with binoculars off across the river, like looking in and seeing what they're doing. (Laughing)
Brenda
We're not putting trail cams up and spying on them, but we are checking at least once a year to see that the conservation values of the property are being maintained.
Katie
Okay. And how many, do you have a number of how many of these easements there are? How many landowners have opted into this?
Brenda
Oh, goodness. I don't know how many easements we have right now. We actually just had probably three or four acquisitions in the last couple months. We just closed on one last week. But the ratio that we have is probably two-thirds of our acreage is protected by conservation easement, and one-third of it is protected by our ownership. We own it outright. Yeah.
Katie
Is there any... Oh, go ahead.
Brenda
It's interesting because a lot of our protected lands, whether we own them outright or conservation easements come to us via donation. It speaks a lot to how people feel French Creek Valley Conservancy operates and their confidence in us as an organization because people are willing to donate their land to us and to me that kind of pulls my heartstrings every time. That's a big deal that people are taking this most valuable asset that they have and they're willing to put their faith in us to protect it So that really is very touching to me. But even with conservation easements, people would be able to sell conservation easements because basically what they're doing is they're giving away the development value of their land. So you can assess what that potential development value is and someone could theoretically sell a conservation easement to us. But I think in almost every case, they've been donated to us.
Katie
Okay, so that may answer my next question, but I'll ask it just to clarify. There's no tangible benefit to people for, they're not getting any sort of monetary benefit for giving this land over.
Brenda
Yep, there sure is.
Katie
Oh, there is?
Brenda
They do get a tax deduction.
Katie
Oh, okay, okay.
Brenda
Yes, they do. And we have had cases where donations have come to us for that purpose. Some people are motivated by conservation mindedness. Some people are motivated by tax deduction. And I frankly don't care which one it is.
Katie
I mean, the outcome is still the same.
Brenda
Yeah, but interestingly, we have had a number of donors who have chosen not to take the deduction.
Katie
OK, OK.
Brenda
They just want the land to be protected. So yeah, there's different motivations to the same end.
Katie
I mean, it still sounds like for the most part- I assume that most people, even if they're maybe more motivated because there's some sort of benefit to them, that the majority of them, if they were somehow anti-protection of the area, they wouldn't just go through it only for the money. There's probably a much deeper belief that they hold that is causing them to want to pursue protecting this area.
Brenda
Yeah, I would say the vast majority of landowners that we interact with, this is family land. This may have been land that has been in their family for multiple generations, or like you mentioned about having a camp along French Creek down near Utica, people have a strong family connection to a parcel of land. And so by and large, that's what drives people to get this land under protection.
Katie
When someone, I assume that they approach you when they want to donate land or set up this easement, Is that correct?
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah, they do.
Katie
Okay. And do they, is it something where you come out and you kind of discuss with them what makes sense to set up as an easement or are they able to choose basically any part of their property and say, "Look, can you do something with this? Because I don't use this part of my land." Or how does that process work where you choose which part of their land is turned into an easement and then what level of protection that gets? Is that a two-way conversation?
Brenda
It is a two-way conversation. And backing up a bit, sometimes we get calls where people are interested in donating land to us and it's not land that we want. It's not land that meet our strategic criteria for land acquisition. So we have a land protection committee and a different checkpoint system that we go through to evaluate properties. But there are people who call us and they want to donate their land to us and it just doesn't fit in our mission. Maybe it's outside the watershed or maybe it's an active farm. And we actually do have one property that has an active farm lease on it. But first of all, we have to decide by our own criteria that it's even a project that we want to pursue. But then if it seems like something that fits within our mission and our criteria, we meet with the landowner and exactly as you said, we talk about what's important to them, what they think the values are. We had a woman who acquired a property adjacent to her property and her desire was to give us that property, but she wanted to be able to ride her horses on there in the interim. And so we worked out an agreement with her so that there would be a part of the property where she is still allowed to ride her horses and do as she sees fit with the property. But then at the very bottom of the ravine, there was an area right along a tributary to the creek that we wanted to see as high protection. And she understood that, and she wasn't gonna ride her horses down there anyhow. But so there is this back and forth.
Katie
Okay.
Brenda
And it's not so much a negotiation, but we wanna be sure that a landowner's wishes are respected first and foremost.
Katie
Sure. Is there any scenario in which, you know, someone could want to donate land that is not at the time deemed worthy of being accepted, but they basically say, take it and do what you want with it, like fix it however you see fit. Is that worth your time? Is that something that you consider? Or does it need to be in a certain condition when you receive it to warrant being taken?
Brenda
I can't think of a scenario that's happened so far that's like that. As I said, we've had landowners approach us about wanting to donate their farm. And that's really not the type of property that, at this point, we're ready to take on. In the future, maybe we would be in a position to be able to reforest properties or that type of thing. But if we get a property with a building on it or a structure, we have to take that down. So that's an expense and an effort for us. But we have had circumstances where it takes a really long time for one of these transactions to happen. And maybe circumstances change over that time. And then finally, it all comes together and it works for both parties. But because we are such a small organization, we are trying to stick with properties that really fit our mission. But we have accepted properties in the past that were for non-conservation value. And again, this goes back to our standards and practices as an accredited land trust. We're able to take non-conservation properties and sell them and use the proceeds of those sales to benefit our organization. So we had a family who donated two residential lots to us. And then we sold those, and we were able to use those funds for our operations. But we have to be very clear with a donor whether or not it's a conservation donation or is it a financial donation. Really, we're never selling our conserved lands. The land that we have under protection, that 2,400 acres, we're never selling it. We're never getting rid of that. We're protecting that in perpetuity.
Katie
Now is that common across all similar organizations?
Brenda
No.
Katie
No, okay. I wasn't sure if that was something that, you know, I could spread out to the masses and say like, hey, maybe you're not in this area, but maybe if you have a property that you wanted to donate, that you could do that and, you know, sell it to the equivalent organization in another area and they could then use that property.
Brenda
Yeah, there are other organizations who will take a property and put a conservation easement on it and then sell it. OK. We don't do that. I don't know the specifics of why they do that, but there certainly are land trusts out there who do have that practice, where they will take a property. They may take it as a donation, or they may buy it, and then they put a conservation easement on it and then they sell it. But we don't do that.
Katie
Okay, so that's not like a common, well, I don't mean common as in frequent, but common as in applies to everybody, rule across all the land trusts.
Brenda
No, it depends on the operations of your own land trust. What they're doing is certainly legal. That's not illegal to do. But if a donor has donated land to you with the intention of it to be a conserved property, they might not be too happy if you turn around and sell it. OK.
Katie
Fair enough. Well, do you want to end by talking about some of the recreational opportunities in the area?
Brenda
Sure. Absolutely. So French Creek Valley Conservancy is actually the water trail manager for French Creek as a Pennsylvania-designated water trail. And people are always like, what is a water trail? But it's just when you have a long stretch of a navigable waterway and trying to encourage people to use that as a trail, same as they would a hiking trail or a walking trail. But there are about 80 miles of navigable water from the Union City Dam in Union City down to the city of Franklin, where French Creek meets the Allegheny River, and quite a few access areas in between, lot of nice 10-mile paddles that you can get done in a day easily. But we've just seen kind of an explosion of recreational use with kayakers. In the past decade or so where you can start buying yourself a really inexpensive kayak at your local sporting goods store and pull your truck up, throw the kayak in the back of your truck, grab a paddle, and be on your way. We have seen a lot of people out paddling. And that's great. We have not seen negative impacts from that. I don't think we've seen an increase in garbage. I don't think we've- I don't know about any biological impacts. But I think people have in general been pretty good stewards and pretty well behaved when they're out on the water. We've seen some people not wearing their personal flotation devices, which is unfortunate, but hard to enforce. But for the most part, people really seem to be getting out and enjoying it. And then we see more and more people out on the water all the time.
Katie
You know what's funny is it does seem more like a kayak river. It's not particularly, um, aggressive in terms of rapids or anything like that. There's a couple of sections, but it's definitely doable in a canoe. But for some reason, the kayaks have really taken over. Um, there's the occasional canoe that comes by, but we've counted, you know, over a hundred kayaks in a day coming back. We like to sit out and just count how many boaters come by. And especially on like the 4th of July, it is packed.
Brenda
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think the kayak works best because so often, um, during warm weather season, French Creek can be pretty shallow.
Katie
That's true.
Brenda
I watch the stream gauge every single day during the paddle season. And I've had my boat out when the stream gauge in Meadville is at 1.7 feet. You know, there might be a couple of places that I'm scraping bottom. Um, but you could never take a canoe out in a lot of the conditions, you know, we take our kayaks out in.
Katie
That is true. Yeah.
Brenda
It's interesting because I, unfortunately, now that there's so much access to kayaking and people can very easily get out on the water, I don't think people are informed enough about the conditions of the creek. French Creek, as I said earlier on, really is a river, a significant river, especially when it gets to Meadville and part south. And people aren't aware of watching the stream gauge, understanding what the flow of the river is. We talk about how little development there is along a lot of the waterway. In the northern section, there's a lot of downed trees. There's a lot of strainers, a lot of hazards. And so certainly people have- there's been an increase in recreation. But I'm always concerned that there hasn't been an increase in safety training. So I've not heard of-
Katie
Oh, I was just gonna say, there's a lot of sections that are ankle deep and then other sections that are 20 feet deep.
Brenda
Yes.
Katie
And it's very easy to convince yourself that it's a non-issue when you're having to get out of your boat to pull it over a shallow section and then 10 minutes later, you're in over your head. That's right.
Brenda
Yeah. And my youngest son is 13 and when he was in kindergarten, he had a classmate who drowned in French Creek. there is a section of the creek where kids played quite often, but there was one deep hole there and unfortunately, this boy made his way into that deep hole and drowned and I not to be a downer, but I tell that that story often Because people do think of it as very shallow Because there are plenty of sections in the summer where you're not gonna get your knees wet But people need to respect it as a river And last 4th of July you mentioned 4th of July the creek being packed last 4th of July My husband and I were out paddling and we came upon a number of kids who in a very slow deep section were in inner tubes and floating and Some of them had life jackets on some didn't and there was one young boy who had a life jacket on but it was not buckled properly and it did not fit him properly and and he fell out of his inner tube and into the water and his life jacket floated up right over his head. And my husband and I actually paddled over and got him safely back onto his inner tube. So it's a river, it's dangerous, there are certainly sections where it's shallow enough to wade around, but people really do need to be careful. And we actually are working on some literature about boat safety. We have water trail maps that we've created for the upper and lower sections of the creek to let people know the conditions of the water, where they can find out information about the water, where the launchers are, what the mileage is. We want people to enjoy the creek, but we really want them to enjoy it safely.
Katie
Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, So when I grew up, I grew up spending most of my time on the river, so I felt very comfortable with it just because I spent so much time there. But having grown up and watched it become more popular, I feel like when I was little there weren't as many people on it, and since then it has gotten way more popular, which like you said is great, but a lot of those people I think got into it when they were a little bit older and came into it new. they hadn't spent a lot of time around it before. And I think I felt a little more comfortable just having grown up there. Like I was aware of how the river acted at different stages. You know, I'd see it in the winter or like during floods when it was a lot higher. And because of that, I was used to where the river did certain things 'cause I knew it when it was low because I was familiar with it. But I could see a lot of people coming in and if they're just getting into it as an adult, you know, they don't know where certain sections the river change and how deep it is, how fast it is, where there are trees, things like that. So I do think it'd be a lot harder to navigate that having come into it as an adult and not being familiar with it.
Brenda
Yeah. We actually, this past year, had a grant that we gave funds to the Meadville area rec complex to buy some kayaks to start giving kayak lessons in the pool because we are concerned that so many people are new to this and very enthusiastic to get out on the water, but have no training whatsoever. I have to admit, when my husband and I got our kayaks for our anniversary that year, we had no training whatsoever. What did we do? We just pulled up and put our boats in the water and off we went. We thought, "How bad could it be?"
Katie
Sure. 99.9% of the time, you're not going to have a problem, but you don't want to be that 0.1%. That's right.
Brenda
But it's a wonderful waterway to kayak or canoe on. As I said earlier, you lose yourself very quickly. And I do so often see bald eagles and great blue herons. And last year was my first otter spotting. So it's just magical and it's wonderful, so close to home, to be able to just get out on the water and forget where I am. It's amazing.
Katie
Definitely. Well, I think that's a good note to end on. And if you don't live in an area that's within a drive of French Creek, maybe you've already turned this off. But like I said, the whole reason I wanted to cover this was A, to learn more about it myself, because like I said, spending a lot of time there, I felt like I know the river very well on a personal standpoint, but I don't know a ton about the history behind and things like that. But also, just there's a good chance that there's a river like this within a drive of nearly anyone in the country. Not necessarily the same type of river as French Creek, but the type of river that can have these kinds of qualities. There's so many places like this that I think would be important to people. And recognizing them and being able to connect with them, I think, is something that a lot of people would benefit from. And the rivers, too. The more people that care about them, the more protection they're going to get like the work you guys are doing.
Brenda
Yeah. And I think it's a good point. When I first took this position with the conservancy and told people that I was going to be working on protecting French Creek, people had no local people really didn't have that concept of why it needed to be protected. You know, people drive through town every day. They see it every day that, you know, it's just, it's in the background. And it makes me think of growing up in Buffalo, people would come to visit and they always wanted to go to Niagara Falls. And I was always like, big deal, Niagara Falls. You know, you become kind of numb to what your surroundings are. So if I can just help people here see the beauty and the value of French Creek, and your listeners, no matter where they are, can find, rediscover the value and the beauty of their nearest waterway, then that's a good thing.
Katie
Perfect, well that's a great note to end on. Brenna, do you want to just share where people can find the French Creek Valley Conservancy if they want to look up more information about you guys?
Brenda
Sure, so you can find us on Facebook and our website is www.frenchcreekconservancy.org.
Katie
Alright, perfect. Well thank you so much for coming on. I had such a great time talking to you this evening. Thanks for having me. It was great to talk to you. All right, and that'll do it. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and go over to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts and subscribe there. You can also find my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to backcountry fly fishing articles every two weeks. You can find me on social media under my name, Katie Burgert on Go Wild or at fishuntamed on Instagram. And I will be back here in two weeks, so I will see everyone then. Bye, everybody.
Note:
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