Ep 176: Ultralight Float Tubing, with Phil Hayes
Phil Hayes is the founder and owner of Wilderness Lite LLC, makers of ultralight, packable float tubes. In this episode, we talk about how he keeps himself in shape at an older age, how he started his company to fill a void in the market for ultralight tubes, the specs of his tubes, how he keeps them light but durable, the benefits of using a float tube to access inaccessible places, where to find fish in alpine lakes, how to approach fish in a tube, and much more.
Website: wildernesslite.com
Email: wildernesslite@gmail.com
Phone: 712-463-2504
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 176 with Phil Hayes on ultralight float tubing. well you've you've heard the podcast so you know how things start i love to start by getting a background on my guests and how they got introduced to the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing So I'd love to hear your background and how you got introduced to the sport.
Phil
Yeah, wonderful, Katie. And so it's a pleasure to be here with you. I just, as you already know, I'm extremely enthusiastic about ultralight float tube fly fishing in the backcountry. So I'm just so much looking forward to this. But my entry into fishing started many years before that. And I think typically, as I've listened to your podcast, a fairly similar story to what many of your other guests have related. My mother's father fished, my mother, my father. I have two older brothers who fish. And gosh, five, six years old. I know I was on a dock with a bait casting rod and reel with a worm and a bobber trying to catch panfish and bass. And that's the way it all started. but I did not immediately by any means become a fly fisher because involvement in a lot of high school sports and whatnot and serious student and you name it I was really preoccupied up into my my mid-20s. By that time our father had switched completely to fly fishing that's all he did and I'm the youngest of the three brothers so by the time I got back into fishing I mean he was full bore fly fishing. In fact, he was rod building by then. So I was the benefactor of getting a fly rod that he made. He made one for each of us and subsequently more, but it was a Orvis sold blanks in those days. So he bought Orvis blanks. This was a seven foot, nine inch, five weight, so kind of a short rod. And it was whippy as a noodle. I mean, I, you know, It's incredible now that I've moved on to other rods to relate just how it's like a buggy whip. But that's the fly rod on which I really learned to fish. And I used that thing, Katie, until it practically wore out. I mean, when I first going into the wilderness in 1998 to fly fish, I was still carrying that rod. And I carried that rod for several years thereafter. And I tell you, and still the sentimental value, I mean, is tremendous, but it's not a very good rod. You know, it just is, it's a little short. It's a little whippy. There's much better technology available than, you know, the 1980s technology. But that's really how I got into it in terms of fishing. Lived in Vermont for a while. Bought a canoe. It was my first job. That was my first major purchase. So I was fly fishing out of a canoe in northwestern Vermont for several years. We moved to southeastern Pennsylvania and I had met my wife and wife to be in Vermont. We married in southeastern Pennsylvania and stumbled into an unbelievable fishing opportunity for me in that we soon had two young children. But we lived in a rural town that had a feed mill, a post office and about five houses. But it also had a warm water, smallmouth, and panfish stream. And before the kids would wake up in the morning or while they were taking their afternoon nap, that stream was 50 yards out our front door across a farm field. I could be on the water waiting and fishing, get in two or three hours and back, and my wife would still be smiling. She's, Phil, you know, you made it back before the kids even woke up. Bless you. So, and I just, that's when I was really all in fly fishing. And then moving to Northwest Iowa, new job, met a man who's become a very close friend. And he'd been going to the Mountain West to hike in to wilderness lakes since he was in high school. And in 1998, he invited me to come along. I was a total rookie. I mean, and I suffered. I mean, I wore cotton tube socks and jeans for the hike. I mean, I was miserable. But the fishing, I mean, that brought me back. And with him, with others, with my family, I've been going back to the wilderness every year since Katie to fly fish. So, yeah.
Katie
I was really interested to see, you know, in your information that you sent me beforehand that you're in Iowa Because I just assumed, you know, with a guy with a float tube company, like certainly you live in Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, something like this. And I was like, of all places, Iowa. So I assume most of your kind of ultralight float tube trips are in the Mountain West and you travel to do them. But are there any opportunities in Iowa for taking advantage of a float tube?
Phil
Yeah, they're farm ponds. So that's the float tube gig in Iowa. And for within a radius of probably 250 miles, that's really the only opportunity. You know, candidly speaking, it's the worst place on earth to have a float tube business and a float tube fly fish during a fly fish period. But it's a wonderful place to raise a family. You know, we just love it here. It's a small farming community. It's been wonderful. We moved here when our oldest was a first grader. It's been spectacular. And so for fishing, the Iowa Driftless is about six hours due east. And our son actually lived in the Wisconsin Driftless just across the Mississippi River for a couple of years. So I've become acquainted with the Driftless. It is not a float tube fishing. It's all wading streams. but just spectacular. And he got to know the stream. He was like a guide. He got to know them so well. So a real, real treat. Due north, about eight hours is the boundary waters of northern Minnesota. And the Department of Fish and Game for Minnesota has this unique feature, they call them stream trout lakes. And they literally identify specific lakes that are deep enough, cool enough, so they won't, they'll maintain trout year long through a warm summer. They won't freeze to the bottom, so the trout can survive through the winter, and there are lakes that are free of predatory species, walleye, pike, musky, smallmouth bass, so those trout populations survive and thrive. And they literally stock fingerlings. There may be no natural reproduction, but a number of those, particularly in what we call the Arrowhead, which is the north shore of Lake Superior along the Canadian border. And it goes into the Boundary Waters canoe area wilderness. And there are several hundred lakes that are trout fishing that are just fantastic for float tube fishing. Most of those are fairly short day hikes in, but for being relatively close compared to the mountain west, it is just a blast. So every spring, sometimes a fall trip as well, going into the Boundary Waters area to fish those stream trout lakes. To the west, about eight hours, the Black Hills of South Dakota. Not a lake opportunity. Again, those are small, small streams. So I've done that as well. But primarily what I look forward to every year is going west. And because we live so far away and we have to travel such a distance, it's always at least a nine day trip. And that's nine days in the wilderness. So we'll tack on travel time on top of that. It can be 11 days to two weeks. And as I said, since 1998, that's what we've been doing. And since then, for several years, we would make it a second trip, either with the same group or and include family or go on a second trip with our children. And it's just been fantastic. So, yeah, two trips this year, nine day trip with the regular kind of I call them the wilderness like crew and then a five day trip with our two daughters and three of their friends. So, you know, this old guy is hanging out with these 30 somethings. I go here and they invited me. I go, you're really going to tolerate my presence in a wilderness camp? You know, wow. It was fantastic. Boy. So yeah, great fun.
Katie
I want to touch on this quickly just because you mentioned being an old guy and I know you didn't, you didn't want to spend too much time talking about this because we're going to focus mostly on the float tubes and the fishing, but you did mention keeping yourself in shape and still being able to do these kinds of things at an older age. So I'd love to hear just kind of a brief description of like what you do to stay in shape, especially as somebody coming from the lower elevations. Like Iowa is not a place that you can train for mountains and you're still coming out and doing these long mountain trips. So maybe inspire some people to let them know that they can keep doing things as they get older. What do you do to stay young?
Phil
Well, and I think this part of the secrets of success, Katie, was to start young. And I, you know, your viewers may have a different view of what's actually young, but I started in my early forties. So comparatively, that's young. But start young. So start no later than your 40s and exercise year round. That's really the key. And I am so fortunate. You talk about the benefits of having this interest and pursuing it really avidly. I'd be a couch potato. I'd probably be overweight. I'd probably be in miserable health. And by contrast, because I don't want to be the guy on the trail that's holding everybody else back. I mean, there's tremendous pure pressure that I'm going to be in decent shape. You know, I've had some knee surgeries. I've got a bum shoulder. I'm doing physical therapy, you know, this time of the year, five days a week. And then on the sixth day, I'm on the treadmill for three miles at a 15 degree up angle going about, oh, 4.4, 4.5 miles per hour. And then I hop on the elliptical at high resistance and do a half mile on that and get my heart rate up to 150, 160. It works great. And then as soon as the weather breaks here in Northwest Iowa, it gets cold here, but you're right, we're at about 1400 feet. So I'm not really building capacity for the mountains. But I take a walk around the block. And a walk around the block in Northwest Iowa is four and a quarter miles because the block is a section. It's an absolute perfect square that's one mile by one mile by one mile by one mile. And then, you know, about a quarter mile up the driveway. And that works great. And in May, I'll start carrying my pack on those hikes so that by the time it gets to later in the summer when we typically go, I will have done a total of about 70 miles with a backpack. And about a third of that will have been with essentially a full backpack between 45 and 50 pounds for a nine day hike. You know, it doesn't, I don't want to scare people. You don't need to carry a 50 pound pack to get an ultralight float tube into the wilderness. it can be much lighter. But if you're going for nine days, and particularly in early September when it gets cold, then yeah, that's about what you're carrying.
Katie
Yeah, with food and the water you're typically carrying in and the layers and everything, there's a point at which you can't get much lighter than that. I think you brought up a good point with kind of having a goal to work toward. Your goal being you don't want to hold up the group and you want to be able to be comfortable and succeed out there. I feel bad for people who exercise just for the sake of exercising. And, you know, I applaud them for having the dedication to just think about wanting to be healthy in the future. But it's so much easier when you're, you know, quote unquote training for something, even if it's not a formalized, you know, a race or a marathon or something like that. Just being like, hey, I want to go on this trip and I want to be able to enjoy myself and not be uncomfortable the whole time and not be out of breath the whole time. Just having something like that kind of motivating you year round, knowing that like when summer comes around, I want to be ready for it to take full advantage. It makes working out in, you know, January so much easier.
Phil
It's essential. I wouldn't do it. If it weren't for the purpose of getting in to float tube fly fish in mountain lake, I wouldn't be doing it. And you mentioned goal. I mean, I have a very tangible goal because I know what's worked for years and years. If I can do the full section, the four and a quarter miles with a full pack in about 70 minutes, about an hour and 10 minutes, I know I'm ready. And I'll tell you, the first time I do it, I darn near die. I mean, it is hard. Yeah.
Katie
Well, transitioning to the float tube. The other way to make your trip easier and lighter is to pack lighter gear. And you originally reached out because we had talked about float tubes on one of my episodes. And we're talking about how it's just very cumbersome to be taking a pack full of everything else you need, emergency gear, food, water, things like that, and then throw a float tube on top of that. And your pack is basically done. You can't fit anything else in there. And the thought of taking one for an extended backpacking trip, I've done one overnight with a normal-sized float tube. And it was a lot. I had it strapped to the outside of my pack and I've got a photo of myself looking like some kind of like a Sherpa. So tell me how you got started in ultralight float tubes and we can kind of, you know, I'll let you kind of transition us into like what, what makes an ultralight float tube? You know, how, how heavy is it and how small does it pack down? And then we can go from there.
Phil
Yeah. So fortuitous. So I explained, I've been invited to go on a hike in 1998 with this good friend, a lifelong friend now, really. And so it kept going every year. And up through 2002, we were fishing from shore. I'd carry in waders every time, carry in wading boots, you know, that I would typically wear for a stream, wading a stream that weigh four pounds. They're Sims boots. But, you know, to hike around a lake and a mountain, you need good boots and you can't do it in water shoes. And so those heavy boots, those waders, which would typically be a good three pounds, and then all the fishing gear and so forth. So, you know, you do the math, it's going to be seven or eight pounds of fishing gear anyway. Even being stuck on shore and wading out on ledges and whatnot, falling in, getting wet, whatever, you know. But I know you've been there. occasionally we'll drive, sometimes we'll fly and rent a vehicle to truck to drive to the trailhead. One time we flew and just, again, quite fortuitously, this friend was sitting next to someone on the flight home, struck up a conversation. And the man asked him, well, you guys, certainly you're packing a float tube. And I's like, what? I mean, it's the same as your view. It's impossible. There's no flow tube that you could ever carry in. I mean, no. And he said, well, hey, there is one flow tube and it's made by Wood River and it is packable. You know, it's not ultralight, but it is a packable flow tube. So we got home and checked these out. And sure enough, they made a couple models of flow tubes here in the United States, believe it or not. And they were six to seven pounds. And they had a reasonably small pack volume as well. So that winter we bought Wood River flow tubes and we started packing them in. And they were truly packable. Now, mind you, we were a little bit younger then. So these Wood River float tubes, despite being a little bit heavier, we could still get them in. And after one trip in, you'll never go again without one. I mean, it is such unbelievable difference in your ability to fish. It's so much fun. I know we'll get into describing that some more. But the ultimate irony, we bought these float tubes in the winter of 2002. Well, it would have been either late 2002 or like January, February of 2003 to carry them in that summer of 2003 for the first time. Wood River went out of business in late 2003. So they're gone. I mean, they were selling us kind of the remnants of their inventory. and they're no more. And so for a while they were available as used because we had other friends, you know, family who wanted to go with us. And we said, boy, we got to find Wood River float tubes for you. And for a while you could find them. But by 2010 or so, they started to wear out. they were no longer available. And it was clear that no other major watercraft maker had any interest in ultralight flow tubes, truly ultralight. There was at least one that was making a seven or eight pound flow tube, but it had a pack volume that was just huge. And that was the outcast trinity. And so we thought, well, maybe we'll be able to switch to the trinity, but it was seven eight pounds. And it has a, give you a perspective, had a 27 liter pack volume. And I use my go-to pack now is Gregory Paragon, which is 65 liters. Well, you put a 27 liter and that's just the float tube, not the pump, you know, not the fins and so forth. It takes up 35, 40% of your pack. There's not enough room for anything else. So I kind of hemmed and hawed and toyed with the idea, looked at our life savings and said, I got to do this myself. Nobody else is going to do it. And so I embarked in about 2010, 2011 on the design and how to get the tooling made, where to source raw materials and whatnot. And by 2013, late in the season, I pulled the trigger and we made 70 float tubes in our first production run. And I thought I'd still have those 70 float tubes today, Katie. I mean, you've only got so many friends and so much family. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm never going to sell a float tube. And it just has just slowly, you know, gathered steam. And like with every other fly fishing business, the epidemic, the pandemic, you know, helped. You know, that just instantly, you know, doubled our sales overnight. And I think we've been very fortunate. We've got customers who love our product. We really try to focus on giving the best possible customer service. Every customer is precious. I handle all the customer service directly myself. And because we have so much experience carrying these in, we knew the limitations that had to be met. It had to be truly ultralight. That's why it's three pounds, six ounces. That's the total weight of the float tube. It has to have a small pack volume. That's why it has a nine liter pack volume. This is the uninflated float tube in its stuff sack. This float tube, uninflated, is in this stuff sack with its inflation pump and with its inflatable seat. And when I'm at a trade show, I mean, it is so much fun, Katie, because people will just, they'll sprint by the booth. Oh, it's another float tube. and I have to go out and practically grab them and hand them the float tube, the fully inflated one, and they go, oh, my God, how could that possibly be that light? And then I hand them one in the stuff sack, and they go, and it's, okay, sign me up. I want one. So, you know, three pounds, six ounces for the float tube. It comes with an inflatable seat, which was a later introduction. We've had that about five years now. That adds 3.7 ounces. The inflation pump is 3.4 ounces. So the total weight of that package is just under four pounds. Wow. The only other thing you need are fins. And about 2015, so it's been about seven or eight years now, we've had fins available as well, and they weigh one pound per pair. So the total weight of your flow tube outfit is five pounds. And as you can see, unfortunately, your listeners won't be able to see it, but it's a cylinder that's seven inch diameter and it's 15 inches long. So it's about the same volume as your sleeping bag.
Katie
Yeah, as you say, it looks like a small sleeping bag, like a summertime sleeping bag.
Phil
Yeah. So, I mean, that really makes it possible and actually relatively easy because, you know, you trade in those heavy stream wading boots that weigh four pounds. For water shoes that I wear over my stocking foot waders, those water shoes weigh 13 ounces. The flow tube and the fins and the whole kit and caboodles, five pounds. It's not a break even, but it's darn close. And it just makes such a difference to be able to cover all the water.
Katie
Now, I'm sure everyone is wondering, what's the durability like? Because that's the one concern with something so light is that, you know, I don't want to be out in the middle of a lake and poke a hole in the thing. So I'm sure you've thought of this because that would be a tragic thing to have overlooked. But what's the durability like and how do you how do you keep it so durable?
Phil
Yeah. So the key point, you raise a great question. And there's there's multiple questions built into that, Katie. And it was back in 2010 in really designing and starting to manufacture these. One criteria was to make them in the United States. I really wanted to make them here and not import them. Selfishly, in some standpoint, I really wanted to control the quality. It had to be ultralight and small pack volume, as we described. It had to be something that really was designed by a fisher. so it had all the things that you would want in a float tube and that you would use on the water. A stripping apron so that your line that's off your reel is right there in your lap ready for your next cast. Dual rod clamps so that when you want your hands free to tie on another fly or work with a landed fish, your rod is secured on your float tube. It's not going in the water. A D-ring and a clamp up front on the left side so your net is right there for every landed fish. D-rings on each side. If you're going to stringer a fish, you're in the wilderness, you know, we occasionally harvest fish and eat them. Or to attach backpacking straps if you're going to carry the inflated float to, you know, any distance between close lakes. Pockets. Oh, storage, of course. So two pockets on either side that are accessible while you're seated in the flow tube for tippet, flies, leader, tools, whatever you're going to need while you're fly fishing. And then a huge backrest pocket, which although it's not accessible while you're seated in the flow tube, rain gear, lunch, store the pump in the backrest pocket. So you can top it off with air after it cools down when it's been on the water for a while. Comfort. It is so comfortable. I mean, it's like sitting in a rocking chair. So you can literally fish all day. It's so much easier than trying to hike around a lake in which I would get, I mean, I'm driven. I would be exhausted. It's a great, it's a wonderful reason to be exhausted, but I can fish eight hours in a float tube and feel like I'm refreshed. It's so comfortable. Durability. The bladders, the cover, everything. You know, we built in tremendous durability and the downside of that is they don't wear out. I mean, we've been making them since 2013 and there are flow tubes out there that we've made that first year and that first 70 that are still being used. And the only thing that's changed is on the side, we've got the logo screen printed and that's starting to fall off, you know, because they've gotten so much use. They are really durable. And in fact, you know, the most common question I get is, well, I'm going to put a hook through it, aren't I? And until about five months ago, I could say it's never happened. Not one. Not one person has ever put a hook through it. Well, lo and behold, last June, customers said, well, I put a hook through it. So great. Well, you know, and he was laughing about it. joking and kind of told me, I said, could you please send me the bladder with the hook through it? I'd really like to see how this happened. You know, we learned from everything that goes wrong. And so he sent it to me. And there was a good size woolly bugger. And I mean, it not only did it, he sent just the bladder, which is under the cover. So we had to go through the cover, through the bladder. And when he sent the bladder back to me, the hook was back out up through the bladder. So it went through and then back out of the bladder. I mean, that would be hard to do if you were trying to do it intentionally. So I'm not sure of the whole story, but I can no longer say that in what this is our 13th year coming up that we've been selling these float tubes that nobody's put a hook from them. Well, it's happened once. So they are remarkably durable, five-year warranty. Yeah, we, again, we love to learn from our customers. We've learned a ton. They've suggested improvements. And so we take care of them and they are very durable, surprisingly durable.
Katie
Well, that's awesome to hear. I'm shocked at like how light and small that is. Like you said, people can't see it, but you've got one there and it is surprisingly small and light. I'd love to transition a little bit to kind of the, you know, how to use this, the fun part of, you know, you've just gotten your ultralight float tube and you're ready to go on a backpacking trip and not be stuck, you know, either tied to your car for the day or at least not having to hike it a normal size float tube a couple miles and break your back. So tell me a little bit about the fishing from it. You know, what are you typically fishing for? How are you figuring out where you're taking the tube and all that.
Phil
Yeah, that's perfect, Katie, because, gosh, your expectations are high when you've carried in a float tube and you've gone five miles, 10 miles into the backcountry. And if you're fortunate, you haven't seen another person on the trail. I mean, your heart rate's going up, not just from the hike, but from the expectation of how good the fishing will be. And it usually is. But there are some good tips that you should always know and carry in with you so you can maximize your success on the water. And first, I'll start with a little bit talking about beginners, because surprising to most, it's a great way for beginners to learn to fly fish. because with a beginner on the water, there's no encumbrance to their back cast. And they can easily turn the float tube so that they're casting with the wind so it's most advantageous. And when they're really little tykes, you know, as soon as they are old enough to be safe on their own in a float tube, it works great to simply troll floating line, put on a nice big hopper fly. Of course, when you're in a flow tube and you're moving your fins slowly, you're moving slowly backwards. You're letting out a little bit of line. And it takes the slack out of the line while that beginner is paddling backwards. And you put them over a little shoal, a little bit of structure in the middle of the lake that has fish. And my gosh, I mean, they'll slam that hopper. And the kids smile. I mean, they're squealing. oh my gosh, I got this fish. And it hooks itself because there's no slack in the line. And they reel it in and it's great. And then before you know it, you know, they're able to cast a short distance. And then before you know it, they're outfishing you. So that's, it's a spectacular, unexpected application of a float tube. But so when you get your flow tube to the lake and you've got those high expectations and again, your heart's beating real fast and you're eager to get on the water. But you want to take a look at the water first, because as you well know from all your experience in the backcountry, Katie, those fish are not evenly distributed throughout the lake, particularly the feeding fish. there's some pretty simple principles that are universal for all cold water fish and that's typically what we're going for in high mountain lakes or trout and grayling and you know the like they need oxygen and cool water aerated water provides oxygen for them and in in the greatest quantity. They need food to grow, to spawn, to survive. And they need cover because there's things chasing them, chasing them from above, an osprey or larger fish within the water. And it's relatively easy. I mean, it's simple to look at that lake and say, okay, where am I going to find all three of those things in abundance? And my favorite is the inlet. There are other areas, and we'll talk about those time permitted, but I will typically go to the inlet first, unless there's somebody else fighting it for it. You know, we might draw straws and, okay, who gets the inlet first? But, you know, you think about it, that inlet has typically got snow melt. That's what's feeding the stream that's coming into it. So it's cool water. Cool water holds more oxygen than warm water, obviously. So it's got great potential to hold oxygen. it's coming down a hillside over rocks and whatnot so it's fallen over rocks and it's becoming aerated and it's cold water that's incorporating and keeping that air depending on the specifics of the stream there might be a great nursery for aquatic insects in that inlet stream there could be bushes overhanging trees on that stream so terrestrials are falling in there you got a food conveyor that's coming in there. And you've got fish that are lined up on either side of that inlet. It's unique in that this is one of the few areas in a lake where you're going to have to deal with some current, unlike fishing a river or stream. But where that current comes in, you know, predictably, they're going to be trout lined up in that seam between the still water and the current because there is just a food conveyor that is feeding them with terrestrials, with aquatic insects, you name it. And it's a wonderful opportunity to fish with great success. Now, and I would also mention because the aspect of the current reminded me, for the beginner, there's no mending, you know, there's no worry about drag as well when you're in a float tube. So it really simplifies their life versus learning to fish in a current. But back to the inlet. You know, you can go and you can attack that inlet. And in fact, as you paddle up to it, you may see, you know, a 20 inch trout that's just, you know, slurping terrestrials coming in along that current seam. But pause for a moment and say, boy, If I start at the periphery of that, particularly if there is cover around the inlet, either boulders, downed trees, a drop-off, or for goodness sakes, all three, I mean, it's going to be remarkable. And there's no need necessarily to go after that big boy who's in the prime spot first. You can start on either side. And the float tube gives you such good access to fish wherever you want. Put your cast in the fishy spots that you want to really target first before you spook the other fish. They're going to be right in that current scene. And with every hookup in a float tube, say, unlike, say, a pack raft, your hands are always free for your rod, your reel, and your line. Whereas you have fins on your feet, those are your constant propulsion. As soon as you hook up that fish, you can immediately start paddling backwards to pull that fish out of the inlet so that it doesn't spook all the other prospects that are waiting for your next cast. You can spend an hour and a half or two hours just pulling you know one fish after another working that inlet and it is so much fun so much fun to diagnose it okay here are the here are the fishy spots i want to hit um do that as skillfully and stealthily as you can to to get the most fish out of there and keep coming back i mean it it it's just extraordinary and that's just the first place to go on the lake There's the outlet, you know, which different characteristics, but the advantage of the outlet, it can call it the dumpster because there's a constant slow current that moves towards the outlet. If you happen to be there on a day when the outlet is also downwind, both the current and the wind are collecting insects and concentrating them at that outlet. Invariably, that outlet's got log after log for cover. It can tend to accumulate a little bit of silt over the years. Again, the current's just moving whatever little silt's coming into that lake, so it can be fairly shallow. Well, aquatic vegetation is going to spring up in that shallow water. The nursery for aquatic insects. The water can get a little bit warm, particularly late, you know, midday when the sun is high in the sky. So you may want to go to that outlet, you know, earlier in the day before the sun gets really high. When the water is still cool, there'll be better oxygen there. But again, it's an ideal location where there are likely to be fish feeding because there's aquatic insects, there's cover. It's a great opportunity to fish and harvest a lot of them. Another opportunity is the shoreline. And of course, if you're not in a flow tube, there are areas of the shoreline where you just can't feasibly fish or cast. But there are large swaths of shoreline which have those same opportunities. There's cover. There's overhanging trees. There might be a drop off. You know, maybe some of the same things that I described at the inlet, if you will. And you can literally jump from one perspective, ideal shoreline area to the next. As you're doing so, you're going to contact rising fish that you're going to be able to cast to. You're going to see cruisers and you're going to diagnose which direction they're headed. You're going to see holding fish that they're not coming out of the cover unless they've got a purpose. And that purpose is going to be eating. So when you see them holding and cover close to shore, it's a great target. So again, fishing the shore. And if it's a bay, you know, that's wonderful. If it's a downwind bay, that's collecting food just like the outlet. So that's a great spot. There's another one, and I call this, it's really float to heaven, it has the unique aspect that no one fishing from shore has ever cast a fly into this water because it's an island or it's a shoal in the middle of the lake or far enough from shore that it can only be reached from a float to using a float to and so when you get there you have great confidence that these are really naive fish. And there's all the things described before. There's great cover. If you've got any kind of wind, the water's getting aerated on the shoreline rocks. There's often shoals and drop-offs. There's a shoreline there too on the island. So there's bushes, there's trees, aquatic insects are falling off. There'll usually be a shallow end of the island, which has vegetation. Again, you've got your nursery for aquatic insects. And I'll tell you, a lot of these high mountain lakes, it's unbelievable how many times I'll go to these lakes and I'll, first thing I'll do is turn over a shoreline rock. They just seem to be typically just loaded with cased caddis. You know, the ones that use pebbles to make their case. And I don't know what it is, but on the islands, I mean, it's like, it's even more densely packed with these case caddis. So it is phenomenal. You've got totally naive fish. It's just wonderful to fish to them. And I'll never forget a day with our youngest daughter, an opportunity where we were fishing just such an opportunity. And she had a rod made by her grandfather. And over the course of that morning, over about two, two and a half hours, triple-double. We both had fish on at the same time. Not once, not twice, but three times. And the smile on her face, Katie, I mean, wow. I mean, you just can't ask for a more rewarding day and experience than that. um oh and one one other area that i that i really like to fish and highly recommend and we go into more details on the particulars of you know the equipment and so forth that i use but if it's the midday the sun's really high the water's warming up the fish are going to go deeper and you do choose to fish deeper which has the added benefit that i'm going to usually switch to a streamer when I'm doing that. And I'm going to target larger, the larger fish, the largest fish. So that gets me excited in the lake. And we haven't really talked about gear yet, but I can kind of segue into that. Most of all the areas that I've described thus far, Katie, I'm going to be using a five-weight or a four-weight nine-foot rod, weight forward, floating line, five-weight, whether I'm using the five weight rod or the four weight rod, I'll be using floating line. My leader, I love braided leader. I'm a weirdo. You know, I have not used a nylon leader in a long time, and I never plan on using one again. A braided leader just lays out so perfectly, and that fly just hits the water so softly, and I'm not a great caster. There's a reason I hike far in because I'm not a very good fisher. It's easy for me to catch fish. So I botch a lot of casts and the furrowed rated leader is more forgiving than a nine line leader. And it'll have a looped end. So it's easy to attach to my floating looped end fly line. And then it's got a micro a tippet ring for putting, oh, three or four feet. So I'll have a total length of, usually have a seven foot butt section of the furrow leader, three to four feet of the tippet. And I'm usually fishing two flies. Sometimes it'll be a hopper dropper. Sometimes it'll be a hopper with a smaller dry fly. Sometimes it'll be a large streamer trailed by a nymph. Sometimes it'll be a large nymph followed by a smaller nymph. But as I started to describe, when I really want to go deeper, when I'm going after that big fish and going down towards the bottom, where there might be some good structure, you can usually visualize this, 15 to 20 feet of water. If there are still boulders down there, they're going to be fish and they're going to be hanging out there when that water gets warmer and you can have pretty good success enticing them getting a streamer down there. And what I do, I don't carry two rods and I don't carry two reels. I carry one, one rod, one reel, and I don't carry an extra spool. And so, you know, most people are scratching their head. Well, my gosh, don't you really want to have a sink tip or a sinking line when you're fishing still water. I said, well, I, you know, I kind of found a shortcut many years ago and I've stuck with it. And it's poly leader. For, you know, years ago, one of us had what they call their leader system. And one component of that was a two to four foot length of poly leader. It's high density sinking leader. And today you can get poly leader. I think airflow makes just a ton of fly leaders that are poly leader blends everything from floating to sinking at two inches per minute, two and a half minute, two and a half inches, five inches to, you know, fast sinking like seven or nine inches per minute. So you've got your choice. But rather than carrying the sink tip on an extra a spool, I carry this four foot section of poly leader. I can loop it, attach it directly to the end of my fly line, attach my braided leader to the end of the poly leader. I use a lot of tungsten bead weighted streamers and they'll sink like a, I mean, a rock, literally getting down there. It works great. And particularly, I fish a lot of large streamers, so it's not unusual. In fact, it's very typical that I'll have a size six with a 530 seconds, four millimeter tungsten bead on that. It's a rock. A polyleader in a fly that's a rock. I mean, it gets down there. And I love doing that. And a lot of times, you know, talk about some other variations. As you know, I mean, midges are ubiquitous on high mountain lakes. And so you just can't miss, you can't go wrong by having a zebra midge or something like that as part of your rig that you're putting in the water. So, you know, invariably, if I don't have two streamers on there, I'll have a streamer and I'll have a zebra midge behind it, or I'll have a larger nymph. Prince nymph is a go-to with a zebra midge behind that. And it just gives you such versatility that you can really cover all those prime spots where fish are most likely feeding and do it very effectively. And you've got a lot of options in terms of the equipment and the flies that you're going to be using.
Katie
Have you ever tested out a longer rod? Because I also typically just take my standard nine-foot rod because I've got a backcountry rod that I claim it's my backcountry rod because I don't care if I break it. Now it's been on so many adventures that I think I actually would be devastated if I broke it. But it's my kind of go-to backcountry rod at nine feet. And I've wondered if having an extra foot or so on top of the rod or even a half a foot would just help. Because you're sitting so low to the water in a float tube that sometimes you're getting those longer casts out there. It's hard to, you're almost like Statue of Liberty trying to keep your rod high to keep your line off the water. Have you ever tried a longer rod to see how that works?
Phil
I've not. And I guess the compelling reason that I haven't is the advantage that the float tube affords you. And that is you are lower in the water. There's no doubt about it. But you're getting close to the fishy spot to which you want to cast. And so, you know, you do have to contend with some wind. But again, you can position your float tube in a very advantageous location that you're not compelled to fight the wind. So I have not found it to be a compromise, but I can certainly recognize the advantages to why someone might want to take a 10-foot rod.
Katie
Yeah, I was just curious because I don't know anyone who's specifically tried that and said it has worked better or worse. I'm sure people have. I just haven't heard from anybody. But you're right that you shouldn't need to take as long of casts from a float tube because you can put yourself in a position where you can reach the fish. You know, on shore, if you're trying to reach out over a shelf or something, you might kind of have to take a 50-foot cast just to get to where the fish even are and hope that you have enough room to back cast that. But in a float tube, you can kind of position yourself in a place that you might not need to cast more than 30 feet or so, which should be pretty easy with kind of any length of rod.
Phil
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, another question I commonly get, Katie, and it's along the same lines, do I take a second rod? And I don't. And I mean, that's playing with fire. I mean, I get it because, boy, it's a lot of effort. You know, it's effort to get in there and you're planning to go in for nine days. If you broke your rod on the first day, that wouldn't be good. But, gosh, the law of average has been very good to us because I say I've been going in since 1998. And on all those trips with at least three and sometimes as many as eight people, we only had one instance with one rod that has been broken, and we were able to use a tent stake to splint that. And it still worked. And it wasn't my rod, fortunately, selfishly speaking. But, you know, a great tip, and I think this is a good precautionary practice because if there are six or seven of you going in, you're already splitting up your gear. You know, you don't need six backpacking stoves and six water filters. So you're deciding who's taking what. It's great to say, okay, I'm going to bring an extra rod that I'm comfortable sharing with everyone. So you have one extra rod for the group in case one's broken. And the same can be said about a reel or an added spool, just in case something goes haywire. So, you know, that's a good suggestion, Katie.
Katie
I think it's also worth pointing out that you're probably less likely to break a rod from a float tube. Not saying anything about, you know, getting in, you know, getting in the water and you're not being careful or whatever. But barring a rod that has an already existing defect, you know, maybe you hit it with a heavy streamer another time and now you've got a fish on and the fish breaks your rod. You know, I feel like trees have to be responsible for a large percentage of broken rods. You get caught in the tree. You're being lazy. You don't pull your fly out with your hand using the line. You start to just yank the rod and the rod breaks. And the odds of getting stuck in a tree are much, much lower in a float tube. So I would bet that float tubes save a lot more rods than they damage compared to the people fishing from shore.
Phil
I think that's true. But you raise an interesting point because every time I hit my rod with a 5, 30 seconds bead, I cringe.
Katie
Yep, same.
Phil
Oh, what have I done?
Katie
Hopefully I don't have the fish of a lifetime on next time.
Phil
Yes.
Katie
And this thing shatters.
Phil
Yeah. Yeah. I said, boy, okay, how am I going to shorten this ride creatively back at camp and still use it tomorrow? So yeah.
Katie
One thing I wanted to mention on the inlet point that I think is worth, it's just a kind of a float tube specific thing is that sometimes you can get a good angle on the inlet from shore. Like depending on, I mean, every shore, every inlet's different, but sometimes you're kind of forced based on how things are oriented that you're kind of fishing at fish that are facing you. You know, if you can only stand kind of where the water's coming in for whatever reason, you know, brush or boulders or whatever, they're going to be facing you. And that can be a hard angle to get because you're trying to get a dead drift going directly away from you, which can be difficult. And the flow tube lets you get basically behind all those inlet fish, which is something that you can sometimes get to the side of them from shore, but you can rarely get directly behind them and might not exist as much for the outlet because the fish would be facing kind of into the lake if they're going to face the direction with the current. But that's just kind of a nice perk for the float tube, for the inlet specifically, is that you can position yourself in a way that a lot of shore anglers might not be able to do.
Phil
Yeah, it's absolutely true, Katie. And along the same lines, when you're trying to cast into a fishy spot close to the shore, a downed tree or whatever, again, the advantage is obviously you're casting from the lake back towards the shore so you can skillfully, carefully position yourself for the easiest cast to get it where it needs to be. And the other advantage, as soon as you hook up that fish, your fins are going to, you can start propelling yourself backwards while you're, so you minimize the risk that the fish is going to get hooked up on the branch next to it, you know, for example.
Katie
So that's a real advantage as well. I also like that you brought up the island thing, not even really to the fishing, but I love being able to take all my stuff out and put it on the island. So I don't have to worry about anyone messing with it. If you're at like a heavily trafficked lake, not only are you getting the benefit of getting away from the crowds. So all the fish that are hit by, you know, all the anglers along shore, you're getting away from them, but you can take your backpack and your lunch and everything, go drop it on the island. Now you don't have to worry about some stranger coming and rummaging through your stuff. I love taking a float tube out to an island and just making that my kind of like base camp for the day. It's just nice to know that no one's going to mess with your stuff and no one's going to enter your area.
Phil
You've got it kind of to yourself. You can claim that spot. It's an amphibious trip. Yeah, for sure.
Katie
Well, Phil, you basically answered all the questions I had for you, which is awesome. Where can people find you if they want to check out your float tubes? And what other resources do you have? I assume that you have some things on your website to help people get started if they're new to float tubes or need some inspiration on why they should pick up float tubing. Where can they find all that?
Phil
Yeah. And before I want to make one more digression before I answer that, Katie, I was remiss in not mentioning the ant because the ant, I mean, I tell you, there are days on, well, ants are ubiquitous, I find in the Mountain West. I agree. And so I use a lot of ant flies. My dry fly, you know, go-to is either a foam ant or I love to work with deer hair. And so in lieu of, for example, in Adams, I'll use a humpy. And I'll use a humpy also as a large ant imitation. But I tie the humpy in a multitude of colors. So it's not just your classic natural deer hair and yellow floss. I tie a lot of dark brown, black humpies with black bodies and whatnot as ant imitations. And so and a lot of the bait fish that I tie are a mother minnow, believe it or not. I mean, who uses a 30 year old fly? Well, I don't use the 30 year old version because I change up the colors completely. I'll still have turkey quill and squirrel, but I'll add some flashabou to it. It won't be natural deer hair. My favorite is is black or dark brown. I'll put some cinnamon colored or red, maybe for the, some mixed in, blended in with that and do the same with the humpy. And I even tie a double humpy that will be a hopper imitation. That'll be on a size six hook. I just love working with deer hair and foam. So go to flies, foam ant, foam beetle, foam cricket. And you're talking about going from a size 14 or 12 up to a size 6 with a foam cricket. And then for the streamers, again, it's a mother minnow tied in those different colors.
Katie
I have to agree 100%. I don't know what it is about the foam ants and beetles on those high alpine lakes. My go-to fly always is an Adams. That's what I'm going to start with basically every time I go fishing. But when that's not working, which is rare, but when it's not working, I feel like that's my second fly every time. And when Adams isn't working, almost always the beetle or the ant is working in it. It is foolproof on those alpine lakes. They just love them.
Phil
And sometimes I say the humpy is kind of go-to, but elkhair caddis too. Because you can, again, it has that versatility to use different colors of deer hair just to change up the fly. And you can go with one fly in about 12 different variations. So, yeah, provides a lot of opportunities. So where to find us? Wildernesslitecom. You know, that's the easiest. The key is it's L-I-T-E. So wildernesslite.com. Website. We've got blog posts on there that talk about another great number of tips, how to keep the flow tube well inflated. There's some good opportunities for versatile pumps. don't necessarily have to pump it up by hand. There's an electric pump that you can purchase that's a great convenience. There's lots of information on the blog, more than people would ever want. Waders. I mean, it's really important to focus on getting a pair of ultralight waders. And the key, you do not need bulletproof waders. You're sitting in a float tube. I mean, they can practically be paper thin. And it's unfortunate because most manufacturers will start marketing an ultralight wader. Those waders just, they'll pull them from the market in a couple of years. I think invariably they get so many complaints because they're not durable enough for wading a stream.
Katie
Right, people walking through willows and stuff like that and turn to Swiss cheese in a day.
Phil
Yeah. So unfortunately, they will discontinue those. And often they'll be right about two pounds and you don't need gravel guards. You don't need a gigantic wader belt with a little bit of ingenuity. You don't need suspenders that are really heavy. You can easily get them down to about a pound and a half. So that saves you a lot of weight. And the other advantage is once they discontinue those waders, they go on sale for half price. And so it's a great time to stock up on waders and equip everybody with truly ultralight waders.
Katie
So question there. Are you saying that you have ultralight waders that you sell on wilderness later? Or you're just recommending that people don't carry their big bulky, you know, I'm fishing a tailwater in the winter waders when they could pack a paper thin pair and just make it dedicated for ultralight float tube. and you don't have to worry about it because that's the only time they'll get used.
Phil
Exactly.
Katie
Gotcha.
Phil
Have a pair of ultralight waders that you use for float tube fishing and that's it. And I, you know, every show, every trade show, every fly fishing show at which I have a booth, I make the rounds and say, you know, please, please come out with something that's truly designed to be ultralight that saves every ounce. And, you know, just like with the float tube, it's a niche market and there's just not, not interest. You know, we're really the only ones who specialize in ultralight and ultralight is all we make and it's all we will ever make. And yeah, we're fortunate that it's been successful to this point, Katie.
Katie
Maybe they should start advertising them as float tube waders instead of ultralight waders because I feel like ultralight just gets people to buy them for the weight savings and then they go mess them up somewhere. Maybe they need to just start saying these are float tube waders only.
Phil
Yeah. And well, I'm sorry to, you keep reminding me of very important points because seemingly the most important piece of gear that you should have is a piece of gear that you don't even carry into the wilderness. And it's a postal scale. For $25 on Amazon, you can buy a postal scale that will weigh in one-tenth of an ounce increments, up to 50 pounds. Many wader manufacturers don't really even know how much their waiters actually weigh. So when you're shopping for waiters, obviously seek out the ones that are advertised as ultralight, but make sure that you can return them. And when you get them, weigh them. And I get it. I mean, most users of these waiters don't really care whether they weigh 25 ounces or 29 ounces.
Katie
Sure, why would you? Yeah, you're just wearing them to walk around. It really doesn't matter unless you're packing them in a backpack.
Phil
Exactly. And so, you know, the opportunity to weigh that and to weigh other gear. I mean, it's unbelievable the difference in weight between, you know, one pullover, you know, fleece pullover versus another rain gear, whatnot. I mean, you can literally save yourself pounds in your pack. Your rod tube. I haven't carried a standard rod tube in 15 years. You buy a cardboard poster mailer and you can cut it down to the weight of your four piece fly rod. And there's a blog on our website for a DIY rod tube that saves you half a pound.
Katie
We might need to do a second episode just on ultralight hacks because I feel like you have a lot of clever ideas like this. Because I think I have heard maybe somebody else has used the poster tube idea before, but that is a clever way to shave weight. And I feel like you're the guy who has a bunch of secrets for getting your package, not even just the fishing stuff, but just all your other gear. I bet you have a lot of hacks for getting your gear ultralight. So we might have to do a follow-up episode where I get all those secrets from you.
Phil
I'll be equally enthusiastic.
Katie
I promise, Katie. That's awesome. Well, Phil, you said wildernesslite.com, so people can find all these blogs that you're referencing and float tubes if they're interested in buying one. And yeah, I just encourage people to, if you've ever tried float tubing, do it. It really is like a freeing experience. And it's like hard to describe how free you feel in the water when you're not confined to where you can walk on shore.
Phil
Yeah. We sell only from the website. You know, making the product in the United States, we just don't have enough margins. We don't have any retail outlets. And we like to be close to our customers to make sure they're successful in use of the product. And we love the feedback they give us, you know, because we can incorporate that in improvements. So it's the one, the only place that you can get a flow tube is at wildernesslite.com. When you buy the whole outfit, which is the flow tube, the pump, the inflatable seat, the fins, and the stuff sack, you save between $50 and $60. Get free shipping anywhere in the lower 48. So, yeah. And I can be reached at our phone numbers on there, and I answer all our phone calls as well. So if they can stand talking to me, Phil Hayes is the person they'll get.
Katie
I'm guessing most people would be more than happy to find you on the other end of the line when they call. Yeah, I just encourage people to check that out because I'm intrigued. I've got a float tube that is not in any way like that, and I don't take it out very often because of how big and bulky it is. So you may have inspired me to look into something a little more lightweight so I can do this more often.
Phil
Yeah. I mean, that's the biggest barrier we have to overcome sometimes. If someone's ever been in another float tube before, they just, oh, no, I'm never doing it again.
Katie
Maybe everyone should be forced to go out in a regular float tube first just to pay their dues and see how heavy they normally are. You shouldn't be able to buy one of these without having hauled in a regular one before.
Phil
Well, I didn't know you had such a mean streak, Katie. Shame on you.
Katie
No, no, in seriousness, everyone should go check these out and do more float tubing. I don't see a lot of float tubes on Alpine lakes, and I feel like it's a shame that more people aren't taking advantage of that. So definitely go check out your website, and it's been great to connect with you.
Phil
Wonderful. I really enjoyed speaking with you. Look forward to another episode sometime in the future.
Katie
Awesome. I agree. All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody. you
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