Ep 175: E-scouting and TroutRoutes, with Erik Johnsen
Erik Johnsen is a Community Marketing Manager for TroutRoutes at onX Maps and an experienced Driftless Area angler. In this episode, we talk about how he got his start in the Driftless, some of the notable features offered by TroutRoutes, how to use these features to find more fishing spots, where they get their data, and how to use the app both during the season and in the offseason to maximize time on the water.
Website: troutroutes.com
Erik’s Instagram: @erikjohnsen
TroutRoutes Instagram: @troutroutes
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 175 with Erik Johnsen on e-scouting and trout routes all right well I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing so I'd love to hear your backstory here and how'd you get into the sport?
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. I learned to fly fish quite a bit later in life. I grew up with a family that was very into car camping and we would certainly, you know, bring the spinning rod or the night crawler box out to the lakes and ponds that were close to us. But I really didn't get into fly fishing until I discovered the Driftless area. And I know you've had some folks on talking a bit about the Driftless in the past and you've had some really great conversations about what this place is. But just very briefly, the driftless is a part of the upper Midwest that was not flattened by glaciers during the last ice age. And so we have a lot of really interesting topography out here. I'm currently in southwest Wisconsin, but the driftless sort of covers that southeast Minnesota, northeast Iowa, and quite a bit of southwest Wisconsin. And what that also preserved was a lot of those spring creeks and these trout fisheries that we have kind of in our backyard. So when I discovered this place, gosh, maybe 15 or so years ago, I learned that it was a very popular trout fishing destination. And I knew I was going to be spending quite a bit of time out here. And so that's when I first picked up a fly rod and started to try and figure all that out. It was also selfishly a play to get closer to my father-in-law, who I knew loved to fly fish when he was younger. And that was a very big part of his life growing up. And so it was a chance for me to try and connect a little bit with him and find something that we could bond over a little bit when I was just getting to know him back at that time. But truly, it was a bit of a long haul those first few years. I didn't really have a dedicated mentor. I didn't have a whole bunch of fly fishing buddies that I would go out with. And so I truly kind of learned through trial and error on my own, finding access, finding some places to get on the water, and then learning how to cast and present flies and all that good stuff. It was tough. I'll admit, it took me a couple of years to really get the hang of things. And I spent a lot of time getting hung up in the willow branches that line a lot of these streams and had very little understanding of the entomology that was going on in these waters. And so it took me a bit to figure some of that out, but I really enjoyed it. And quite honestly, what I loved about it was that each time I would go out to the water, it was almost as if there was this new puzzle presented to me. And I really enjoyed the process of trying to crack into that puzzle or that, you know, almost brain teaser and try to figure out what the fish were eating, what flies were going to work, where I should stand, how to cast, all that stuff that goes into fly fishing. I just really, really enjoyed it. So once I started to get kind of the hang of it, I went about as far down the rabbit hole as I think you could probably go. And I started tying flies. I started learning about all this bug life, started doing a lot of research about the water itself. And really it's, it's been that way ever since. And I really, like I said, every time I go out in the water, whether it's here in our home water or if it's somewhere else across the country, I just really enjoy that challenge of having to understand and learn a bit about the area, try to, and try and crack some of those clues that are, that might be present when you're on the water itself. And then hopefully put it all together and land a fish or two. And it's just really rewarding once you kind of figure out what's working, how to present a fly, where you should cast, and then for a fish to connect. It's just one of the best feelings.
Katie
I like that you mentioned that it was a lot of trial and error because I feel like a lot of people, even if they have a mentor or had a lot of resources, like something that kind of they were following, some kind of program they were following, it always still comes down to trial and error. You can only be told to do something so many times by a mentor or shown how to cast. You're still going to go out there and have a horribly ugly cast for the first couple times you go out. So even with resources, I feel like it still comes down to trial and error. But it's funny that you're just like, I didn't have anybody. It was all trial and error. Even if that's kind of a common theme.
Erik
Sometimes I mean, I look back on some of those early moments and I go, gosh, I can't believe I stuck with it as long as I did because I was not doing well at all. But I think that's very true. And I think what's also interesting is even with, you know, all the tools that we now have at our disposal, the endless selection of fly patterns, different weights of rods, fly lines, you know, all kinds of different gear that you could get yourself into. While some folks might have a couple of tried and true methods, I think what I really enjoy is you still have an element of that trial and error every time you go out. And that I think is what really kept me coming back to it was, you know, one thing that might have worked the last time I was on the water is not necessarily a guarantee. And I think that's really cool about the pursuit is you always have these little challenges that you can try and break into. And it really, I think, is a big part of what kind of connects me to the water and the environment that I'm in. It's a chance to slow down a little bit. a chance to be a little bit more observant and present in those moments. And I think that's something that I also really enjoy.
Katie
I think that's got to be a common theme that people like about it, especially in fishing, hunting, a lot of the outdoor pursuits, it wouldn't be as fun if you knew exactly how it was going to go every time. If you know you're going to show up and this is what fly is going to work, this is where the fish are going to be sitting and I cast it there and I catch one. It's like, well, if I already knew how it was going to play out, then did I really need to come out here and do it? And it's like, yeah, I rarely get skunked these days, but it usually takes a little bit of playing around before I like quite figure out what, you know, what today's menu is. So I, I would guess that most people are feeling something similar of like the trial and error is, is kind of the whole point.
Erik
Yeah, definitely. And I think that once you sort of start wrapping your head around that concept, it's really, it opens up a lot of the other things that might be going on when you're on the water. Certainly there are specific hatches that may only, you know, come out during certain times of the year or for a few weeks at a time. And so while you might be able to use a familiar tactic, I also really like that added challenge of trying to understand even more specifically what bugs the fish are eating or what hatches coming off and trying to match whatever you might have in your fly box to what those bugs look like. And, and challenging myself certainly to not just fall into the same routine and really enjoy that experience of the challenge and trying to try something new or something different that maybe didn't work last time, but might work this next time.
Katie
I had a quick question about the Driftless that I didn't really get into with the last couple of folks I talked to because it was very much like I went there to go fly fishing and you having kind of been drawn to fly fishing after finding out about the drift list, is there much of a culture of conventional angling in the drift or is it like pretty fly fishing heavy there? Do you see a lot of like worm chuckers?
Erik
Yeah, not especially. I think there absolutely is a majority of anglers that are approaching these waters with a fly rod. I think it's, in part, it's what draws people out here. It also is a technique that works particularly well because a lot of these streams and creeks are very shallow, you know, that you need to be able to cast a decent distance because the fish have come to learn, you know, what an angler looks like when they start tromping across the top of the high watermark. And so the approach is certainly beneficial in this part of the state. But I do think there are a fair number of anglers that are, you know, heading to a familiar bridge and throwing a worm and a bobber over the side or, you know, sitting down on a bucket and just enjoying an afternoon in a single spot. But yeah, I think it's certainly more skewed toward to the fly angler certainly
Katie
yeah this has come up many times on the show but I think fly fishing for a conventional angler often you think of fly fishing as being like a harder way to do it or you know I'm gonna I'm gonna make this more difficult to myself for the art of it and uh there's a lot of situations in which fly fishing I think is the actual like the easier or better technique and that kind of area I've never been to the drift list but from what I've heard it sounds like a place that I would do fine fly fishing but I would really struggle to catch a fish with conventional gear because I wouldn't know what to do. And some places and some species just lend themselves better to fly fishing and trout and it sounds like the driftless are two of those kind of categories that fit fly fishing pretty well.
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, there are plenty of deep pools that exist out here that I think sending something through the bottom with a more conventional approach makes perfect sense. But often those are harder to get to and you need to sort of spend some time exploring a lot of these waterways to come across them. And I'm right there with you. I think I would not exactly know what I was doing if someone handed me a spinning rod and told me to go catch a bunch of fish. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right. There are so many, you know, like I said, most of the water is really, really skinny. There's a lot of overhanging vegetation. And so quite often throwing a more traditional cast through some of this water just doesn't really work. And I can think of plenty of instances where, you know, I can see fish rising or I know there there's a pod of fish right below this riffle that I would have no idea how to approach on conventional gear. But if you put a fly rod in my hand, I know exactly how to drift to fly through that seam and hopefully land something.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like on like a bass pond, I could go out with either one and kind of figure it out. It'd be like about even, but trout in small streams. I'm like, if I had like a worm and a bobber right now, I don't know what I'd do, but I definitely know what to do with a fly. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me how you got your start with Trout Routes and maybe how Trout Routes got its start, depending on how long you've been there. I don't remember how long you said you've been working with them.
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, in tandem with the Driftless region, the Trout Routes came about kind of at the end, the tail end of 2019 into 2020, specifically as a tool to help combine the resources that exist for this part of the upper Midwest into a single platform to really help the founder find not only access, but some new opportunities that he wanted to try and fish in. And so he started building Trout Routes out on his own for the first couple of years. And then I joined the team when he built out the first kind of core group of employees back in 2022. So I've really been involved almost, you know, not quite since its inception, but very closely after he got the idea off the ground. And so at that time, we had about half the country mapped. And we joined the team to help build out the rest of that development end. And then I got my start on the marketing side, getting us connected with fly shops and industry partners and NGOs and things like that across the country. And it was a really exciting first couple of years where we were a very scrappy five person startup team in Minneapolis. And it was in 2024 in March that we were acquired by Onyx Maps, which I'm sure most of your audience is well familiar with. So now having some more resources and the experience of a larger and, you know, I would say one of the most reputable mapping companies in the country has been phenomenal for us to be able to leverage our experience and our brand and our information on top of some of the already well curated data sets and tool sets that Onyx Maps has to bring. But yeah, it was, like I said, it was really designed as a way for a trout angler to understand where the access points are, what water even has trout in it. You know, sometimes that's the most challenging piece is just figuring out where you're going to go. And so it became this tool to help not only find access and find these trout waters across the country, but then incorporating data like USGS stream flows or satellite imagery or elevation charts, all kinds of resources to help you learn more about that water. If you're heading out somewhere new, perhaps get more familiar with the water that is in your backyard or discover a new access point that you didn't know existed. And then truly be that navigational tool when you're out on the water, something that you've got right in your pocket that you can use to help you when you're stumbling through some of that tall vegetation that lines quite a few of these trout streams across the country.
Katie
This might be a bit of a dumb question, but what is it when you say you were acquired by Onyx, what does that mean, I guess, for the app itself? Because as somebody who is an Onyx user, and I pay for whatever their premium level is, and I didn't have TroutRoutes. And so I assume that they've basically provided some resources to TroutRoutes to get that app to be more robust. But I actually don't know what it means to be owned by Onyx in that case, since they're two separate entities. Yeah. If you could explain that, I would love to know what that means.
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. So of course, Onyx is responsible for Onyx Hunt. That's probably the most well-known Onyx product that if you are someone who spends any time in the backcountry, you've probably heard of Onyx Hunt. But they have also developed products for off-roading, for hiking and skiing, as well as now for conventional fishing. But where Trout Rout sort of fits in is to really continue to occupy that space for anglers who are chasing trout in moving cold water. What that's meant for us as a product and as a brand is, you know, we are all fully part of the OnX Maps team. We're all technically considered OnX employees. But they've chosen to allow us to maintain our identity, our brand reputation and recognition. And rather than just grab all of our data, which is what I suppose they could have done, they really respected the product that we had built ourselves and wanted to make sure we continued the momentum that we had been building as that startup. for those first couple of years. So from a product perspective, what's really great is we've been able to leverage their experience and some of their very specialized teams to start incorporating more of their curated data, but also to take advantage of some of the teams that work tirelessly to help design and learn how best to disseminate information visually. So we have folks that we work with that are just dedicated to tweaking iconography and map styling and color and base map integration, where we're able to continue to use the data and the tools that we've built, but now bring much more ease of use into the product. And then to continue to kind of expand on the tool sets that we have developed using some of their expertise.
Katie
That makes complete sense. And you can tell that it's a different app, which makes sense because it's kind of a different set of features. On X, you know, I spend a lot of time in the hunt side looking at things like slope angle and like trying to find little benches that like could hold animals and stuff. And it's like that's that's not really the kind of way you would use a like a fishing e-scouting platform. So it makes sense. The tools are kind of completely separate. But I just wanted to clarify that because I never know what that means when someone gets acquired by somebody else. It's like, well, you're kind of two separate things, but you're kind of the same thing. And yeah, I was just curious on that.
Erik
Yeah, well, and to be transparent, I think we were all also wondering what exactly that was going to look like for us in the early days. But to be honest, it's been a real joy to be part of that family now. And not only do I have to give them credit for allowing us to kind of maintain our identity and the direction that we were headed, but the way that they've trusted us to continue to build on a brand that we spent a long time developing ourselves has been really, really phenomenal. And to now overlay that with, like I said, some of the truly dedicated teams that they have within the larger company has been very exciting for us to not only start developing some new tools and ways of showing data, but then to also start to explore, you know, some tools or data sets that would have potentially been out of reach for us simply from a bandwidth perspective. We now have quite a few more folks that can come in and support some of the ideas we have. Maybe tell us the ideas we have are not worth it right now. But their trust in us has been really phenomenal. And just a couple of things that we were able to integrate right out of the gate were ultimately bringing in Onyx public land data. So the level of accuracy that Onyx Hunt has been known for for quite a long time now will show up in trot routes. But we continue to, you know, kind of tweak and adjust that data. So it is most meaningful for a fly angler or for a trout angler. Rather than focusing more on the land features, we're honing in on, you know, that moving cold water to help folks find access. And, you know, plan a new fishing adventure, learn more about your home water and everything in between. And it's been really great.
Katie
I think it would be good to just kind of cover some of the main features that Trout Routes has. And I try not to let episodes get too much into just being like an ad for a product where it's like, here's a list of what we have. But I think it would be really helpful kind of in the context of, you know, you want to find new fishing spots or whatever. And maybe how the features that Trout Routes has like fit into the process of e-scouting as a whole. So maybe we can kind of make it more of a holistic, you know, integrating what features trout routes has and how you could leverage those to kind of maximize your time on the water and find new spots. So I'd love to hear kind of from you, like what some of your favorite features are and how people could use those to maximize their time on the water, basically.
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. I would love to kind of take that e-scouting angle as an approach to kind of understand what we've got going on in trout routes. So if you are familiar with Onyx, what we're doing for trout anglers is what they've done for backcountry hunters or hikers or skiers or off-roaders. And it's really about understanding and showing folks not only where trout rivers and streams exist. So we've got all of those, you know, more than 50,000 independent rivers and streams mapped across the country. But then what we're doing is we're overlaying that with data about public and private land. So you can understand what the boundaries are between public and private land parcels, where your access might begin or end. And then additional detail about where those specific fishing access points might be and a number of other features or landmarks along those waterways that you should be thinking about or perhaps are worth considering when you're trying to find some place to fish. One of the features that I use all the time, even though I've been deep in trout routes for a number of years now, is just taking a high level view at the expanse of trout water across the country as a starting point and using our classification system to really get a sense of what that trout water might look like. So not only have we mapped all those streamlines, but we've also color coded them based on those regional and sometimes national methods of classifying trout water. So it's really easy to distinguish something like a gold medal or a blue ribbon stream from something that might be rated a class one, two or three or, you know, those class three waters that might be either harder to get to, maybe have fewer trout or just have fewer access points. So when I'm thinking about e-scouting, certainly when I'm thinking about fishing somewhere new, oftentimes what I'll do is I'll jump in to the app and I'll try and find a starting point, find a town or a small city that I'm thinking about using as a base camp, or at least an easy point of reference when I'm trying to understand where or how I'm going to get to some of these places. And then from there, start panning around and looking for those blue fishing access icons. In the app, every fishing access is denoted with that blue square that's got a fish and a hook in it. And we make it really easy to understand where those access points are. And just kind of take a moment to look around and see what kind of class water I have near that sort of anchor point of that city or town. and then in tandem with looking for fishing access, I'm also looking for that green background base map, which is going to indicate public land. And that's going to tell me that not only can I get on the water at a certain point, but I can be relatively confident that I'll be able to move up or downstream within a particular boundary because I can see exactly how far up or downstream I've got public access. So those are kind of the big highlights that I think are really key for what we're doing in trout routes, but it's also quite honestly what I'm using myself almost every time I'm trying to eat scout somewhere new is start from a high level and then slowly zoom your way in until you can identify a couple of good points of interest. And then from there, you can jump off in all kinds of different directions. And we can go into some more detail about some of those features as well. But that's kind of usually my starting point. I would be curious if that sounds familiar or if you have similar tactics when you might be heading out somewhere new.
Katie
Yes and no, in that most of where I fish is, like I'm typically avoiding the big rivers, the gold medal waters, because my priority is like get away from people. Like I don't want to see anyone while I'm fishing. And so I'm doing a lot of like blue lining and stuff. So fishing access points like often don't really exist where I'm going. Public land, it's a major factor. I mean, I'm looking for a stream where it's like I can walk in either direction as far as I want and I'm never going to have to worry about private land. So the public land aspect, absolutely. The fishing access is something I use a little bit less, but that's actually something I wanted to ask you about is what is meant by a fishing access point? Are these like designated? Because some rivers you go to, they'll have like a named sign that says like, this is the, you know, such and such stretch of this river. I know the Arkansas is like covered in those signs where it's like you can name your spot and everyone knows like what you're talking about. Whereas where I'm typically fishing, there is no access. Like the whole thing is access because it's just a wild stream on public land for miles and miles. So is that a state by state thing? Is that, are these like named access points? Like what basically counts as an access point on trout routes?
Erik
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say predominantly those designated access points are going to be exactly as you just described. There's likely going to be a pull-off or, you know, a gravel parking spot on the side of the road. More often than not, they'll have some sort of signage that will let you know, like this is such and such river or perhaps it's a named access point or it's a landing or something like that. It might have a little bit of information about the water, you know, on the board or something like that. But there are, you know, I would say several other fishing access opportunities that might be denoted as either a parking spot or a boat ramp or boat launch. So you certainly aren't just limited to looking for those blue access points. There are a number of different ways that we've found some of that additional access. And a lot of it is through just combing through piles and piles of data to figure out what truly counts as an access point or not. but I would say the majority of those access points that have the marker on them in the map are going to be those ones that have a little bit more space to park pull off the road and more than more often than not we're also going to have some signage that will help also designate them as a fishing access point.
Katie
Could there be pull-offs that don't they're not named they don't have any signage or anything but have been designated as a fishing access point for trout routes because it's just a it's a good place to pull off and walk down to the water like it could just be kind of a random gravel pull-off.
Erik
Yeah, definitely. And a lot of that stuff is going to be the kind of information that we've spent the time to hand curate and either evaluated either on the ground or through other, you know, aerial or satellite imagery to understand exactly where those additional access points or pull-offs are going to be. Sometimes they are just, you know, there will be a, you know, capital P. So it's more of a parking spot than a true access point. So you might end up having to walk a bit through a trail or something to get yourself down to the water. But like I said, you're certainly not just limited to those blue access points. There are a number of different icons that we're using to help folks understand where they can find some of that access to the water. And then pairing a lot of that, like I said earlier, with the mapping of all the public land is going to give you that extra validation that this certainly is a way for me to get from my car or my truck or whatever it is down to the stretch of trout water.
Katie
Yeah, that's really good to know. And that sounds like a pretty valuable feature because when I am fishing kind of, I guess, closer to civilization, like along a road, a lot of the places I'm going don't have like a name to access. And like I can find them. I can look in satellite view and look for pull-offs and be like, well, that's public. I can park there. But to have those designated for you so you don't have to just kind of like scour satellite imagery, that's really great to hear. That's why I wanted to know if it was just the named ones or if you do have kind of some basically manual input here of like, no, this is a way to access the river even if it doesn't have an official designation.
Erik
yeah absolutely and I think you know to your point about finding potential access that would maybe be well away from gold medal or blue ribbon or some of the more popular or well-known places to fish um it's not that i'm always looking for gold medal or blue ribbon although that can be almost well not almost always but um a likely indicator that there should be quite a few trout in that stretch of water um usually also means that plenty of people also think there are lots of fish in that stretch of water. And so while it's a great starting point, I am certainly not averse to kind of digging through some lower classification denoted waters to find some access that I might think would be a little bit more off the beaten path or might have a higher chance of not being overfished or fish this frequently, which I think is another one of the great things about what we're doing at Trap Routes is not only are we showing you where a gold medal and blue ribbon access is going to be, but we're also showing you all the other opportunities that exist well outside of those well-known access points or familiar parking spots. And once you start to kind of dig into that sort of next level of information, it's lifetime's worth of fishable water across the country. And a lot of it probably doesn't get seen by an angler at all throughout the year. And so it's truly a vast wealth of opportunity that I think we're helping folks understand. And speaking of blue lining, I think that's another almost opposite or inverse approach to some of the information that we have mapped out is that water probably only has one access point, or maybe it's just a trailhead at the end of a dirt road. There's probably not a sign, but it might just be a big parcel of public land and you have to sort of figure out how you're going to get yourself out there. And once you get out there, it's still up to you to understand how to pick apart the water. But I think that being said, I think it's really cool to see how much trout water there is across the country. And if you're willing to do a little legwork before you head out the door, it's certainly given me a lot of confidence when I'm heading out somewhere new, because I know, like I mentioned, I can understand where the public land boundaries are. I can understand how I'm at least going to get to that particular section or that particular river. But it's certainly given me the confidence to go and explore more of those opportunities than I certainly wouldn't have had before.
Katie
Can you talk a little bit about the class one, two, and three that you mentioned that aren't kind of the big ones, the big heavy hitters, and what class one, two, and three mean?
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. So below gold medal or blue ribbon, you would have class one, and that would be sort of your one step below a gold medal stream. And then it continues to follow in succession. So then class two would be sort of middle of the road and class three would be water that it's either has fewer trout in it or it has less or more difficult access to it. What we've tried to do with our classification across the country is take all of those regional systems. Sometimes they're state-based, sometimes they're, you know, based on, I think gold medal and blue ribbon are a little bit more of a national scale. but different states across the country have different ways of categorizing their trout water and so we've sort of rolled all those systems into one and then applied a little bit more preference to class one and two streams that have more public land around them or more access points and downgraded some class two and class three that might have less access or less public land flowing through them so it's not necessarily going to be an exact one-to-one of what you might find on a CPW or a DNR website, but it's going to be fairly close. And what we've really tried to do is highlight and accentuate waters that have more of that public access. So prioritizing and encouraging folks to explore spaces that we know they have a little bit more free reign and a little bit more ability to get to different parts of that water.
Katie
Yeah. The number of times I've been driving along a stream and I look over and I'm like, oh my God, this looks so incredible to fish. And then I find out that basically the entire river is private and it's like, oh, well, That would probably be a class one, but if I can't get to it, then I don't really care. And I don't really care to see it pop up on the map if I can't fish it. So that's the way you take that into account.
Erik
Yeah. And it's something that we're always kind of fine tuning, of course, but I think what it's done certainly for me is help me understand what I'm familiar with here in the upper Midwest and be able to translate that into a state that I may never have visited before. And that was really our intention is to help anglers understand not only the amount of access, But, you know, there certainly will be, you know, better habitat, more trout per square mile in something like a blue ribbon or gold medal. And as you work your way down the system, those numbers get lower and lower. But that certainly doesn't mean that a class three stream is a bad trout stream. It just might mean that it poses a bit more of a challenge. You might not find as big of trout or you might only have a couple of opportunities to access the water, but are still certainly worth exploring and checking out. I think whenever I'm headed out to a trout stream, I'm not always focused on catching the biggest trout of my life. I think sometimes it's just as worthwhile to go explore somewhere new and maybe try and either connect with the native species or a fish that survives in a tiny little pool that you have to hike a half mile into to even see them. And so it's just a way for us to help sort of differentiate those experiences.
Katie
Yeah, I suspect that the majority of what I fish is class three, but I love it. I don't often catch fish over 12 inches or so. I mean, I do sometimes, but most of what I'm fishing, like I go in knowing that it's going to be little fish, but I'm not going to see anybody. And I'm going to have fun like figuring out how to how to get close enough to these little guys to catch them.
Erik
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that sort of stealth pursuit is sometimes even more of a thrill when you do eventually connect with something because you know how hard you had to work to sneak around the bend and not let your silhouette cross the water and all that stuff. So yeah, absolutely.
Katie
Can you talk a little bit about the different ways you get data from states? Because I'm sure the process is different for every state. And I'm not an expert in how the waters are classified, especially in the context of like trout streams. But I'd love to hear kind of like where the data come from and how you integrate them all into kind of a seamless map experience like that.
Erik
Yeah, of course. I will do my best to try and give you an overview because I am not involved day to day on the data side. But what I can say is data in TroutRoutes, first and foremost, is all coming from us. We're not interested in sharing any user information. Anything that you might do in your own account as far as dropping a pin or taking a note somewhere does not show up for anybody else. And we don't use any of that information to tell other anglers about any conditions or anything like that. So everything that you'll see in Trout Routes has been curated and validated by our teams. And that data is truly coming from a couple of hundred different sources. Some of them are going to be national data sets that, you know, especially when it comes to things like public land, a lot of that stuff is managed on a national level. But then we are also willing to take the time to dig through, you know, information that might only exist on a county by county level. And so it's truly a kind of a swath of all kinds of public sources. And then now, as now we're a part of Onyx Maps itself, being able to leverage some of the data that their specific teams are curating, which again, comes from these publicly available sources combined with some sources they found access to. And I think, and I say this all the time, I think one of the real bits of magic that happens within the app is how our data teams are able to stitch all these things together. Because of course, if you're looking at river or stream data between two different states, as soon as you hit the state line, that particular state doesn't really care what happens across the border. And so we've taken that additional time to find ways to connect the dots. So you're not just limited to what might be happening within the boundaries of a single state, but it's a smooth transition across the country. And then even on top of that, finding some really interesting ways to connect what might seem like disconnected sources together. So you can make sense of something like, for example, where a public land boundary exists on top of where an access point exists in relationship to a stream gauge, which is telling you how fast or slow the water is moving. And so it's sources like that, that, like I said, really do come from a couple of different hundred places that we've taken the time to sort of digest and disseminate into a single platform that you can really truly interact with.
Katie
Do you have any concept of how comprehensive the state data coming in is? And I'm asking this, and this is not at all to bash trout routes, because I know you were using data that states provide. But like, there are streams that contain trout that are not listed on trout routes. I know, because I went and like, I wanted to like field test some. And I was like, you know, this stream, I saw like two trout in when I was out. And it's like, you know, six miles back, like it doesn't have a name, but I know there's trout in there, because I've seen them. And it's not listed. And I wouldn't expect the state to care that there's a handful of trout that have made their way up into this little two-foot wide stream. But you are kind of at the mercy of what data exists out there. Do you have any concept of how comprehensive these state databases are? And have you received any feedback about that? And my trout stream is not on there or anything like that?
Erik
Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't actually have a strong answer as far as how comprehensive the data is nationwide. But what I can say is, while we are in many ways limited to either the accuracy or the frequency through which some of that publicly available data is updated, that'll be true for anybody. We moved out here to Wisconsin a couple of years ago. And I still notice like on Onyx Hunt, for example, our neighbor is listed as not us. Perfect example. Right. And it's not because the data is wrong. It's because if I today went to the county clerk and asked for the record, they wouldn't have seen the update come through. It's just an unfortunate reality of how sometimes slow that data moves through those pipelines. But what I will say is that we do have the ability to now overlay data sets on top of each other. So where we may have earlier been limited to a single data set, we can now find other or more comprehensive sources that we can layer on top to find the most up-to-date and the most accurate versions of that information. I won't name the sources individually, but I know we're looking at some really interesting data right now that will help, I think, define some of that even further accuracy. And it's one of those opportunities that we wouldn't have had earlier, but now that we have the resources at Onyx, we have an entire team that kind of threw this our way and said, hey, I think this would be interesting, you should explore it. And it's going to give us another layer of accuracy that is not only a relatively new data set, but it's something that was going to apply to areas that cross state or county boundaries, for example. That's another great question too about feedback. We certainly are always interested in listening to our users and lending, especially when they find either an error or something they're confused about. And we are very quick to make those adjustments if they need to happen. But quite often, like I said, it kind of comes down to an inaccuracy or a lag in an update that's happening somewhere in the pipeline. So we do everything that we can to kind of mitigate those situations. And like I said, one of those ways is to find multiple data sets so that we're not just relying on a single source of truth. We actually have a couple of different things we could point to and say, well, it seems like this one's out of date. This one was published this year. Let's get this one in so that we can provide better and more accurate data. And in terms of how frequently that data is being updated, you know, we're able to plug in those updates really in real time. So you're not necessarily waiting for the 2025 release of Trout Routes. All that information, as soon as we get it into our hands, makes its way to the user as soon as we're able to upload it into the system.
Katie
And to be clear, I actually think it's a feature, not a bug, that there are streams out there that are not listed as, you know, trout streams by the state and are kind of like still unknown because that's the kind of stuff I like to do. So I'm sure some people are like, I would love to see every single stream that has a trout in it. And I will not be satisfied until I can do that. And I'm kind of like, I like to be like, maybe there's a trout in there. Let's go see. And like, maybe there isn't. But I kind of like that there are still streams out there that are not, you know, quote unquote, known by the state or known by apps. But I mean, most of the ones I looked at are marked on trout routes. Even the little ones are there. And that's kind of nice too, because if you're going out in the middle of nowhere, it's kind of nice to be like, well, I hope there's fish. So I can check on here and be reassured that I will probably catch something if I go out there.
Erik
Yeah. I won't ask you to name that stream on air explicitly, but it sounds like a fun adventure, especially if you're hiking in something like six miles to get back into it. That sounds pretty cool. I think that's a really good point though. And I think something else that is worth mentioning is there are an awful lot of very sensitive trout populations in the country. And while we may have data for where those fish exist, we're very cautious about sharing things or publishing things that we think could potentially do harm to those fisheries, certainly without providing any specific regulations that you would need to be aware of. But in addition to that, making sure that anglers understand that sensitivity and are aware of what precautions they should be taking or, you know, being very cautious about shedding potentially too much light on specifically, you know, very native trout populations. And so it's a delicate balance. And I think, you know, one thing that we've been very proud of is the way that up to this point, we've shown where the access is, we've shown where public land boundaries are, we've offered a whole suite of tools to help you plan some fishing and your time on the water. but we're still relying on you to take the time to learn how to read water, how to cast a fly rod, and are certainly not interested in showing you where the big boulder is under the bridge that you could access at this spot. It's really not about that level of detail, and it's really more about giving you a chance to explore all these opportunities and learn about how much opportunity that really is out there, right?
Katie
I feel like there's a big difference between seeing a map of waters that contain trout, which in my opinion, it's not particularly hard to figure those things out by yourself anyway. It kind of just puts them in front of you so you don't have to dig each one up individually. I feel like that's a big difference from something like a place blows up on social media because somebody posts a picture of a hog and now everyone wants to go catch that fish. It strikes me as different because it's not like trout rouse is highlighting a spot and being like, here's where to catch the, I mean, gold medal, sure. But like, that's not, I'm not concerned about those waters anyway. Those are, the cat's out of the bag on those. But I feel like it's a big difference, kind of the YouTube social media atmosphere of like, I saw somebody catch a big fish there and I want to go catch a big fish there versus here's a map of all the waters in the state that contain trout, which like I assume most creeks in Colorado contain trout. Like that's the assumption I'm going in with unless I hear otherwise. So it kind of just makes the process a little bit faster and more streamlined when you're trying to figure out where you want to go for the day. So I view those as very different things. I'm sure you've received feedback that's kind of insinuating that you're giving up all the secrets. But it's not really giving up that much, except there's probably trout in there.
Erik
Yeah, exactly. I think the majority of the pushback that we do encounter is mostly misconceptions about either where our data is coming from or how we're presenting it to people. And once we can get folks to understand that we're not using user-generated content, we're not trying to harvest information from social media, and we're just trying to show you where the public access is, the conversation almost immediately flips. And very few people are willing to say out loud to my face that they don't think someone should have access to public access water, right? Right. I mean, all the information is already out there. It's a hard, yeah, that's a hard case to make for anybody, I think. And I think once we start having that conversation, it's really more about how we're helping you not only understand what the opportunity is, but then have a resource to pull all these things together. So you don't need to have a dozen tabs open on a browser. You don't have to have, you know, multiple map books or something like that in the glove box of your car. And it can kind of truly, at the end of the day, become this fishing journal where you're able to record places you have fished, maybe recorded some memorable catches, and then use some of those similar tools to help plan out for the future. So you have this almost record with you that you can use and learn off of going forward. So yeah, like I said, I think once people understand that we're curating this data ourselves and we're really interested in helping you find the access and then also show you all this other untapped access that you didn't even know existed, there's truly been very little negative feedback that comes out of that, I think.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like it's hard to get mad at maps that show you things that you could find on other maps. It kind of just brings other resources together. So you can do it all in one place instead of having to go to the state website and then go over here and pull public land data and then go over here and pull something like USGS flows. All these things are tools that I've used for years, but it's nice to have it all in one place so I don't have to go to multiple websites. I want to wrap up by just talking about like we're kind of we're in the winter right now. This episode probably won't come out for a bit. Might be getting closer to when people are starting to think about really getting back out in the water in the spring and summer. But in these shoulder seasons, I know you had mentioned beforehand, like that's a great time to e-scout and kind of live vicariously through through your maps and through the Internet. How are you using e-scouting in the offseason to kind of get ready for when it's time to go out there on the water? And then separately, how do you use, for example, trout routes when it is in season? Like, I don't know if there's offline version like Onyx has. And basically, how do those two uses differ between in season and off season?
Erik
Definitely. Well, let's start with off season because that's where we find ourselves during this conversation. And as we will be for the next couple of weeks, months, maybe, depending on where you are in the country. When I am in the off-seas, one of the things that I like to do is think about what I might already have on the calendar coming up the next year and using some of those opportunities just to think about or find some opportunities for me to bring a fly rod with me and maybe sneak out for an afternoon or something like that. So that can be a really easy way if you're just kind of dipping your toes into the world or the idea of e-scouting for a trout fishing trip. Think about where you are already planning to go next year and pull it up on the map and just take a look and see if there's any trout water within a certain driving distance. You might be surprised to find that you've got some opportunities that would be only a couple of miles down the road that would be a perfect excuse for you to head out for a couple hours and explore something new. But if I'm trying to come up with some information or if I'm trying to plan for a dedicated trout fishing trip, it'll be somewhat similar to what I mentioned earlier about how I'm using some of the features to find trout water to begin with. So once I've isolated an area or a region that I'm headed, one of the things I like to do is just kind of, again, start it from a high level and understand what kind of trout water is flowing through that area. Maybe I do want to hit that gold medal section, but maybe I want to find something a little bit more challenging. So once I can sort of identify what the opportunities are in the first place, then I start thinking about what kind of approach I might want to take. So am I going to be in a raft? Am I going to be walking, waiting? Do I want to bring up three weights and target some really small water? And that can be really helpful to start to narrow down the real, almost overwhelming amount of fishable water that does exist. So, you know, now I've got kind of an idea of where I'm going. And maybe at this point, I've even nailed down a couple of different streams or rivers that I want to target for that particular trip. Once I've gotten to that point, now I can really start to dig into the information that we've got on those particular rivers or streams by looking at where the access points are. Maybe looking at how much public or private land exists on that stretch so I can get a sense of how far up or downstream I could go. and knowing what I know about how far I sometimes like to walk. Like maybe I want to give myself a little bit more runway. So I will look for something that has more green polygon background. So I know I've got all afternoon to hike as far up or downstream as I want, or I can get myself on that particular day. There is a really cool feature within Trout Routes, which is a river miles calculator, which is a very simple tool where you can open up, or you basically click on the ruler icon and then tap any two places on the stream. and it'll show you exactly how many river miles are in between those two points. So especially as I'm thinking about how much or how far I might want to walk at Wade, I use that a lot to try and understand, okay, I know there's an access point here. This, you know, 90 degree bend looks really fishy. I want to know how far it's going to, it'll be between the access point and that bend. So then I start to use those kinds of tools to help me understand distance on that water. And I think are going to fish very well. What I'll do when I'm e-scouting is pull all this up on a desktop. So I've got a much larger monitor for me to look at. And then I'll use custom markers to drop all these waypoints on the map and take these little notes. So I remember when I go back there months from now, the reason I put, I, I isolated this area was not because it has an access point. It's because there's a 90 degree bend, a half mile upstream, and here's how I'm going to get there. And maybe I've even thought about like what fly I'm, I'm dreaming of throwing through that big pool, right? So it's sort of this, you know, top down approach where I started at a particularly high level, and I slowly work my way into more and more detail about the water that I'm discovering. And along the way, I'm taking all these notes, and I'm dropping pins to help myself remember what it was that I was thinking about when I was looking at this on a big screen, or what my, you know, aspirations were when I was dreaming of this potential trip to Colorado or Montana or wherever it might be. And what's great about that is any of that custom content that you're going to drop in, it's going to show up on your phone. So it'll already exist with me when I'm on my mobile device. And this is kind of a transition into how I might use some of these tools when I'm actually on the water. You mentioned offline maps. Onyx, of course, has offline map functionality, and we bring that same ability into TroutRoutes. So you can absolutely identify parts of the app that you want to, and parts of the map that you want to save if you know you're going to be outside of service and download them straight to your phone. So you've got all that data with you, even if you're outside of coverage. So that's usually the first thing that I'll do before I head out. But then as I'm getting closer to that trip date, or, you know, I'm looking ahead to what the weather or the conditions are going to be like the following week or the next day, that's when I start to look at things like satellite imagery and stream flows. So we have talked a little bit about stream flows already. We've mapped out all of the USGS stream gauges in the app. So you don't need to go to the website and open a bunch of tabs. You can actually see where those locations are on the stream. And then when you tap into them, get that live data as long as, of course, you're connected to Wi-Fi or cell coverage. But you can see those stream flows and depths and things like that in real time. So that's when I started to keep an eye on what those current conditions are like, so that I can prepare myself for what kind of gear I might be bringing with me or what kind of techniques I might be using when I'm out on the water itself. And then beyond that, I think something else I like to do when I'm actively out on the water is use some of those custom markers to remember the experience that I'm having. So if I find a really good bend or I find a great log jam, snap a photo of it and I'll drop it on as a, as a note on a pin that I'll make right in the app on my phone. Or if I'm lucky enough to hook into a really nice trout and take a picture of the fish, I can add that to a marker as well. So I could remember for next time, if I'm ever coming back to that place again, here's where I was, here's where, like, here's what I, what fly I tied on. Maybe here was the technique that I used to, to land that fish. And so it really becomes this tool end to end when I'm sitting here in the beginning of winter and I'm thinking about these opportunities all the way through to the time that I'm spending right out on the water. And I'm able to capture all of that into that same account. So it's really, really a neat way to not only, like I said, have some of those aspirations and try to think maybe a little bit outside the box, but then bring it all together and have that information with me. So I'm extra confident in knowing I'm headed to the right place. I know I'm going to be on public water and I can know how I'm going to get back in and share the experience afterward.
Katie
Yeah, I find myself staring at maps a lot in the winter. It's just a way to get myself hyped for. the next year and I always end up placing way too many markers I've had to get better about not just placing markers randomly without any sort of notes or anything because for a while I was on like on X on the red pin train where I'd just be like a pin there and a pin there and a pin there and I come back and I'm like what was I seeing in that spot so yeah the ability to add like notes and colors and icons and stuff like get ahead of the ball on that because it's really hard to come back and try to curate what you were interested in you know months later yeah that's a really good call out and a reminder.
Erik
I have absolutely found myself in the same boat where I all of a sudden come back to a part of the map and I have all these markers. I'm going, this doesn't make any sense. This is nowhere near what I would have expected to come back to. And so give yourself that extra beat, drop a couple of reminders or a couple of notes in there. So when you do come back and you realize you just scattershot things all over the map, you know exactly what you were thinking at the time.
Katie
Right. And then I wonder, like, what am I missing now? Like, was there something really, really cool in that spot that now I'm missing it. What if I'm just throwing away a pin that's really valuable? Is there anything I didn't ask about that you think is worth mentioning either as a feature in the app or some kind of hack for finding phishing spots or basically just anything at all that you think is worth mentioning before we get off the call?
Erik
I think we pretty well covered it. I don't think there's anything major that I haven't touched on already, I would say, um, if, if you're someone who's new or you're a little bit tentative about how technology fits into your fly fishing tool set, um, whether it's trout routes or on X or something else, I would say, give it a, give it a shot, take some time this off season and, and spend a little bit of time to get to know some of the tools that are out there. Um, you know, I certainly hope it's something like trout routes, because if you're chasing trout, we're, I think the best platform to help you find some of that information, but, um, it's a, It can be intimidating, especially if you have some methods that you've used in the past, but I think you might be surprised at how much more valuable that data starts to become when you're able to see it in tandem with other data sets or other visual resources. And it took me a little while to kind of build that into my fly fishing program. But I think I'm really grateful for the number of resources that first, you know, first of all, exist for us to find fishable water. And it doesn't need to be in an app. It doesn't need to be in a product. There are tons of resources out there that are free and available for you to track down. But I think it can really help you, you know, not only get a handle on what current conditions might be, But I think you'd also be surprised at how much opportunity truly exists that you have at your disposal. And maybe even encourage some listeners to try something new this next season. Maybe do some e-scouting, find an area you've been meaning to go to or you've had on your radar and you just haven't quite made the leap toward. Do a little bit of research, drop some pins, take some notes and go for it this year. Maybe use that as a challenge to try something new and get a little bit outside your comfort zone.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Erik, where can people find you or Trout Routes? Whatever you want to share. I mean, founding Trout Routes probably isn't rocket science with Google, but any social media or anything?
Erik
Yeah, you can find us at TroutRoutes.com or definitely keep your eyes on social at Trout Routes. Pretty easy for us to pop up there. If you're interested in connecting more with me, I'm happy to chat with anybody who's got questions about the app or about fly fishing or about the drift list or whatever it is. And you can find me on social media as well at Erik Johnson. And I'm looking forward to making some of those connections with you all.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Erik, this is a ton of fun. I know I'll be e-scouting a lot for the next couple months because we've got maybe five inches of snow on the ground right now, so I won't be getting out anytime soon. Yeah, same here. I appreciate you taking the time to do this.
Erik
Yeah, thanks, Katie. It's been a pleasure. Have a great rest of your day.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntame.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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