Ep 177: Steelheading and Public Lands, with Zack Williams
Zack Williams is the owner and publisher of Swing the Fly, the Brand and Editorial Manager for Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and editor of their magazine, Backcountry Journal. He spent many years swinging flies for steelhead both in the Great Lakes Region and on the west coast before moving to Montana. In this episode, we discuss steelheading, angling as an identity, the threats facing public lands right now, and much more.
Instagram: @swingthefly
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 177 with Zack Williams on steelheading and public lands. well I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got introduced to the outdoors and to fishing specifically so I'd love you to just give me a background on how you were introduced to those things
Zack
yeah I mean I was I was was lucky. My dad had me literally casting a fly rod in diapers in the yard. And I grew up in Michigan. And by the time I was five years old, I was fishing with my dad literally like five nights a week. He would get home from work and we would launch a canoe into the river a few minutes from our house and fish for smallmouth primarily. And then it expanded from that where through my childhood fishing was, I mean, I played sports, but I ended up quitting every sport I ever played just to fish and went through a lot of different phases and interests from, you know, creek trout and smallmouth to, for quite a few years, tournament bass fishing in the summer while steelhead fly fishing through the winters, which are kind of contradictory pursuits. But yeah, that was my childhood in West Michigan. And then eventually it ended up taking me west.
Katie
And did you feel like you had the fishing bug? Because it sounds like your dad kind of introduced you to it. But I feel like that can go one of two ways. You can either feel smothered by it and can turn you off or you can like you can run with it. It sounds like you ran with it. But do you think that that was just in you, regardless of whether your dad had kind of put a rod in your hand that young?
Zack
I think probably. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think I took it a lot further than he ever expected. I would take it. You know, it certainly wasn't. Oh, I'll just go because my dad's asking me to go. it became, you know, all, I was lucky. I, some of my closest friends still all, we all grew up in the same neighborhood as little kids and we could ride our bike down to the river and to some farm ponds and stuff like that to fish. So that was all we did all summer long. Um, and, yeah, I think, I think it was probably just in me.
Katie
So I don't know if you like have memories of the first time you cast a fly rod. You said you were still in diapers. I guess I don't know how, how old you wore diapers, but when did you feel like you were good at it? Because I feel like fly fishing is one of those things that takes kids a little bit longer than regular fishing, because there's a lot more technique involved. Were you pretty good early on, or did it take you till eight, nine, 10 years old to really start to grasp what you needed to do to catch fish regularly?
Zack
Yeah, no, I wasn't good at it. Not sure what age. I mean, I started catching some bluegill and stuff in the local ponds on a fly rod at a pretty young age. I think I was eight when I decided I really wanted to catch a trout on a fly rod. And the main thing was I was persistent. I remember it took me an entire summer to catch one little eight inch stock trout on the Rogue River in West Michigan. So I, I mean, I, you know, I made that summer, it wasn't small mouth fishing from the canoe. It was where we were going trout fishing every evening and it took me an entire summer. So no, it wasn't any like natural talent at that time or anything like that. And yeah, you know, I, I mean, when it comes to fishing and fly fishing, it's one of those things where you, you know, you might think you're good at one point and then, you know, the years go by and you look back and you're like, oh, I didn't know anything at that time and stuff. So that's one of the cool things. There's always room for improvement.
Katie
Were you all fly fishing all time? Like for, for the smallies and stuff that you were fishing early on?
Zack
No, no. I, I, I did a lot of conventional fishing and, yeah, like really weird contradiction from kind of the, the serenity of fly fishing, you know, I would go and I was really into tournament bass fishing as, as a, as soon as I was in particular old enough to drive myself and tow the boat that we had. Um, I was tournament bass fishing, against adults, you know, and running around the circuits of West Michigan doing that. And, so I don't know, I've tried a little bit of everything.
Katie
Did you do very well in the tournaments?
Zack
I'd like to think I did, did all right. Considering I was, I was a, a teenager. Um, I, I liked to, I fished with one of my close buddies, But I also, by the time I was in college, I was fishing these team circuits, but I liked to fish alone, just with my dog. And I was, I, I held my own, you know, but there was always, there was always somebody better. Uh, you know, some of the guys that, you know, we'd fish against went on to the, the top levels of the pro bass circuit and stuff like that.
Katie
So how serious were these tournaments? Like, I guess, well, I don't know the different levels, you know, and I think of bass tournaments. I think of the stuff you see on TV. I'm sure there's a lot of kind of lower level stuff, like the minor league version of that. But like, you know, how serious were these tournaments? Was there like a big prize or anything at the end?
Zack
You paid a cash entry, usually about, there was like smaller weeknight tournaments, you know, where it's like 20, 30 buck entry and goes in a pot. And then the bigger weekend circuits were, oh, a hundred bucks or so to enter usually. And, you know, you look back at it at the, you know, for a young kid working in a sporting goods store and stuff and how every single penny I earned went to paying for gas and lures and line and rods and everything. And the payouts for those tournaments are not worth it at all. But, yeah, people took it very seriously. I can tell you that much, you know. And it's like you're out on the water practicing at every, you know, looking and trying to get a pattern in the fish prior to the tournament and every chance you can get. And then, you know, up at 3 a.m. I mean, this was I was a college kid. In the summers, I was I was up at 3 a.m. fishing bass tournaments. And who knows a lot of a lot of those evenings, I may even have been out out doing college kid parties and stuff till midnight or whatever. And then on the water at three. And yeah, so it was something I woke up. I woke up one morning. I was I was fishing this local bass circuit and it was a few hour drive to this lake for this big tournament. And I went up there on like the Friday before and I was looking for fish and my trolling motor broke. And, you know, the tournament's the next day. And I'm like driving around this like town several hours from my home trying to find a somewhere to repair my trolling motor. And I just like pulled over on the side of the road and I was like, this is not fun. I am no longer having fun at this. At that point, my dream had been to be a pro bass fisherman. I mean, that's what I wanted. I was like, this is not fun. And I turned around, I drove home, I put the boat in the garage, I packed up my stuff, and I never fished another tournament again. And I just picked the fly rod back up. I said, you know, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to enjoy what I do. And that was that. That was the end of my tournament bass fishing.
Katie
I can see tournaments being a quick route to hating fishing for a lot of people. The same way that even like guiding, I know it can like kind of ruin it, but I feel like guiding, at least you still get the, like watching a client catch their first fish. There's that still that kind of like innocent joy about it. Guiding, whereas tournaments, I feel like it takes a very specific type of person to not have that ruin the love of fishing that probably brought you to the tournaments in the first place. I think that would ruin it for me.
Zack
Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. You know, I'm competitive. by nature but then there's clearly like a lot else to be gained from fishing and it doesn't have to be competitive and I never I never have considered fly fishing a competitive endeavor where you know I I hate to see it get competitive but somehow I separated it when I was bass fishing and kind of blocked that out but it certainly did did ruin it for me and then you know the funny thing was then as you know my my next career was guiding so you know I went to the next one which I I always thought you know growing up I mean fishing was all I did and I was like well should I become a fishing guide and I was it was I don't want to ruin it and then eventually I decided well I'd rather be outside and on the river than not so yeah that's a whole nother another story for sure, but that was where it went next. So yeah.
Katie
Tell me what happened. Actually, you know, before we move on, I wanted to just mention, I know you, you talked about like, as soon as you got your driver's license, you were out of there and you, you, you know, putting your money toward gas and stuff like that. And I felt the same way. Like as soon as I got my driver's license, which I think was like on my 16th birthday, I was out of there. And I hear a lot these days about, you know, kids don't want their driver's licenses. They're just like, not that motivated to get it. And I have to imagine that most of those kids don't fish if that, because I, I was so excited to be able to not have to ask for a ride and then get picked up from, from wherever I wanted to go. So I think we could turn this, turn this trajectory around a little bit if we just got more kids into fishing, because then they'll definitely want their driver's licenses when they turn 16.
Zack
Yeah. Yeah. I I've heard that as well too. You know, no need to drive, which I mean, hey, for some reasons, that's great. But yeah, there's too much country to see out there, too much to do for me, for sure.
Katie
So tell me where fishing took you next. I saw your bio, so I kind of know how you ended up where you are today. But just walk me through what came next for you.
Zack
Yeah, next. I mean, so when I quit tournament bass fishing, I was early 20s, maybe 22, 23, somewhere in there. And it wasn't too long. I stuck around in West Michigan for a while. That was, you know, after getting out of college. I was working in property management, an office job. But after the bass fishing thing, I mean, before that, too, I mean, my whole life had been like kind of six months of chasing steelhead with a fly rod and six months of bass fishing was kind of how I split my year. And so after that, I just kind of threw even more into the steelhead fishing and spay casting in particular. And so that kind of consumed me and wasn't long after that. I took my first trip out west to the Olympic Peninsula to steelhead fish and to Idaho's Clearwater River. And then a few years later, I picked up and moved. I decided I'm going to try to make a career out of this guiding steelhead with a spay rod. And so I moved to Washington to do that, to the Olympic Peninsula, and had a memorable time along the way with my now gone chocolate lab and just living out of a truck and chasing fish everywhere we could. And so, yeah. And so that that led into the next 10 years of my life was guiding was my primary career.
Katie
So what were your thoughts upon experiencing West Coast Steelhead for the first time after growing up in the Great Lakes area?
Zack
You know, the the rivers were what to me were like just so incredible. I'd never seen water like that. It was so different than Michigan. The first time I went to the Olympic Peninsula, me and a buddy from Michigan who's another guide out west, but we flew into Seattle and rented a car and we drove the four hours to the Olympic Peninsula in the dark. And we we pitch our tents in the January pouring rain in the rainforest. Just no clue what we were doing or why we're where we were, you know. And then it like gets light with the mist, like coming off old growth cedars and spruce. And like we walk out to this, you know, glacial green river and you're like, where am I? What did I get transported to from Michigan? It was just a transformative experience. And the first couple West Coast steelhead I happened to tangle with were particularly large and kind of just changed my whole perspective on what was out there. And that all said, the disclaimer is I love Michigan steelhead fishing. I think the rivers and the fish are incredible. It was just different. It was a new experience for me. I honestly, I thought I was when I moved out west, I thought I was going on an adventure out there and that I would someday be back to Michigan. And it's never happened. So I'm in western Montana now and my life's taken a new direction the last handful of years. But yeah, those rivers had a strong pull for me.
Katie
Yeah, I was really surprised to see that you're in Montana now. I know we'll get to swing the fly and everything, but I just assumed that you were still somewhere in the Pacific Northwest because kind of everything that I know about you, which is admittedly not much, but it was kind of that steelheading scene. So what took you away from that and brought you to Montana where, as far as I know, steelhead is kind of a non-existent thing?
Zack
Yeah, it was a big career decision. As many people know, guiding's not the easiest way to make a living. And yeah, I'd started that little project, Swing the Fly, with hopes that the combination would be a career for me. But yeah, I mean, you know, when it push came to shove, I put a lot of time into it and it always was a struggle to make it. And I decided I needed to be a big boy for my wife and now my daughter. And so what brought me to Montana was taking a full time career with Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, the nonprofit organization. And so that's what brought me here to Missoula, but now we, we love it. And, so it, it's hard being, being away from, steelhead water, but I'd also, spent at that point, oh, 20 years of my life, like obsessively steelhead fishing. And, it was okay to take a break or change course again, for me.
Katie
Did it almost feel like you had kind of completed what you set out to do, which was to kind of like immerse yourself in the West Coast Steelhead? Did it feel like a chapter had been closed or some kind of like closure, I guess, where you felt like it was time to open up to something new?
Zack
It did. It did. I felt like I'd accomplished what I'd set out to in a lot of ways. I mean, there was always, you know, room to improve or, but I'd, I'd set out with, you know, goals for where I wanted to get as a spay caster and where I wanted to get as a guide. Um, and, all of that. And, I, you know, I felt pretty good about that. And, and the, the other thing is, you know, these, these fisheries have really been struggling and I, I wasn't personally feeling great about being a guide. You know, when I think somewhat naively, I thought, you know, when I became a guide, like, oh, I'll have a strong voice for the conservation of these fisheries and a real impact to leave the place better than I found it. And my general feeling was I was not achieving that goal. I was I was taking more than I was giving back. And I didn't feel great about that. And so my next career, I felt like I could, you know, I had an opportunity to go somewhere and give back. But it was also, you know, it was hard. It was kind of a, you know, moving away from steelhead fishing and spay casting. It's kind of been a little bit of an identity crisis, you know, when you you spend your entire life devoted to something. And then all of a sudden you're not doing it. You're kind of like, who am I? So I, I've said, I, I think I'd, you know, be lying if I didn't say I was still dealing with that a little bit, you know?
Katie
It's, it's kind of crazy. Cause I totally can picture what you're saying. Like, you know, I do a lot of kind of like Alpine trout fishing here in Colorado. And if I left and, you know, move back East, I grew up in Pennsylvania. Uh, it wouldn't change the fact that I spent all these years out here doing this or the fact that I could come back out and do it whenever I wanted. And I probably wouldn't forget. It's like riding a bike. I'd come out and remember it all. But it would feel like I'm somehow leaving a part of me behind just because I can't do it right now. And that's such a weird thing because it doesn't actually change anything about who you are or your ability to go back there if you wanted to. But it would feel hard for me to tell somebody back east like, oh, no, I really love alpine trout fishing as though I'm somehow lying about that. So it's a weird mental game where it's easy to tell a friend like that's ridiculous. But I would totally feel it myself if I were in the same boat.
Zack
Absolutely. You know, I mean, I, you know, I still own this business, swing the fly and stuff. But I like it's like I'm back to a little bit of imposter syndrome a little bit. You know, you're like, well, I haven't fished that much for steelhead in the last six years. And I was OK with the break. But I probably probably need to be honest with everybody that, you know, I've been doing different things. I've got a young kid and stuff like that. So I got one several day steelhead trip with my buddies from Michigan who came out last fall and we went back to my old haunts. But that was, you know, that was the first in a few years for me.
Katie
Why did you feel like you were taking more than you were giving back as a guide? especially because like you said, you could be a voice. You could talk to your clients about conservation and potentially inspire some of them to make a difference. What did it feel like you were taking from the resource?
Zack
I think as catch and release anglers, a lot of times it's easy for us to kind of block out the impact that we have on the fishery. I mean, there's some mortality associated with a catch and release fishery. And, when you're dealing with a native wild fish population that when, when I walked away in, 2018, we were, we were dealing with like all time lows on, at that point, my, my primary home water was Idaho's Clearwater river. And, we're dealing with like the lowest fish counts in, in 20 some years for sure. And some of the lowest ever. And so, you know, I, I trying to like figure out how to navigate that. And like, if, if there's only at that point, they're like, there's only a few hundred of these truly native wild B run steelhead coming back to the Clearwater river. And if I hook 30 of them in a year with a 5% mortality, you know, that's, to me, that wasn't a, just a little blip like that counted. Like, and, and so, you know, personally, I think I I've seen, I've seen fly caught steelhead that were hooked in the tongue and are, are bleeding out and stuff like that. And so I, I don't think like catch and release fishing is the greatest thing that ever happened to conserving our fisheries, but, but it doesn't mean that, that what we're doing doesn't have some sort of impact. And, you know, I, I'd have, have a lot of conversations with my clients, about that. And, and some of them got it and some of them, some of them certainly didn't, you know, it was how many fish are we going to hook today? And I'm like, you know, honestly, the way you're talking, you might not hook any because of where I put you in the river, you know, but, it's like, you know, I just like, I, I felt like the, the message was struggling to get through. I, and, fly fish, fly fishermen, you know, as a general ethos, I think are amazing and care and stuff. But, yeah, the, you know, the takeaway for me was that I still felt like I was having an impact and I felt like in that moment, it was too much of an impact and, probably the river should have been shut down and until the fish population bounced back a little bit and stuff like that. So I made my own personal choice to shut it down kind of, you know.
Katie
That's interesting. And I haven't talked to somebody who's kind of expressed this before, but because you did, I'm interested in your opinion on kind of the mentality today of like, because there's so many, you know, podcasts, YouTube channels, companies based around this kind of stuff, you know, meat eater and, and other, other things. They're not the only one, but, and it's not that I disagree that it's great to get more people involved in hunting and fishing because, you know, like you people who are doing these things are going to be kind of the voices of conservation there. But sometimes I feel like people start from a different place than when they, where they end up when they're explaining why they do it, where it's like, I wanted to start a YouTube channel so I could get a lot of views and show off all these fish I caught. And now when people are complaining that, you know, there's too many people on the river or the resource is hurting, I can spin it as, well, I'm just inspiring people to get involved. And so therefore I'm a benefit to conservation. And I know it's not a black and white thing. Like it is better to have more people who care about this stuff, people who want to see the resource thrive. Also, there's probably a bunch of people out there who've gotten inspired to go out because they want to just show off like they caught a big fish. And do you have any thoughts on kind of the, I guess the motives, it's not like you can read their minds, but behind a lot of people who kind of maybe spinning like what their selfish pursuit is as a like conservation effort. I don't know. I don't know if I said that correctly. I don't want to step on toes.
Zack
I mean, you said it correctly to me. I think there's probably some degree of human nature. And we want to justify what we want to do. That's just human nature. We want to tell ourselves that what we're doing is good and right and moral. And, sometimes it's pretty murky, you know? Um, you know, I think, I think, I think there are those people who are like active, I don't know, I hate that word influencer. Um, but actively like influencing people in a positive light in the, fishing hunting, you know, world. And then, yeah, there's, there's a lot of like, I'm probably just trying to justify what I want to do, which is, you know, try to make a living making YouTube videos and doing what I love, which, you know, you can understand that. But yeah, there's obviously, there's been a lot of, you know, publicity brought to fisheries, hunting spots, whatever it might be that, you know, was kind of more in the name for making a buck, you'd be, it'd be pretty hard for me to argue otherwise. Um, and then, yeah, there there's, I mean, there's a lot of people that are, are in that and, do a really good job of, just, you know, showing that this is out there, but not, you know, self-promoting or, you know, throw, throw in our, our fisheries or our public lands or whatever under the bus while they do it. So I don't know. I have mixed emotions on it all, I think. And I don't have answers. But I've seen on the contrary to all that, we've seen in the steelhead world, there's places like the Thompson River in British Columbia, which was when I was a kid, that was my dream was I wanted to go fish the Thompson River for steelhead. And by the time I moved west and was really like in a position where I could do it, the fishery was so depressed. I didn't feel like I could do it, even though it was still open. I didn't feel okay with that. And, but since then they've shut it down to angling and the river has lost its voice. I mean, the, you know, the, the government of BC and the, the commercial fisheries are just, I mean, there, there's like, it might even be single digits. There's less than a hundred Thompson river steelhead coming back for their, their functionally extinct at this point in, in the course of a pretty short period of time. And like, you know, there's towns have died off and, you know, like, and so the to see that happen, I mean, there's got to be some people have got to maintain their connection one way or the other and to the place. And so that's hard when you're not able to experience it, you know, out of sight, out of mind. So where's the balance? I don't know.
Katie
Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's not black and white. And people could argue that I'm part of the problem. I have a podcast. I try to not spot burn and things like that. But at the end of the day, everyone out there who has any sort of social media presence and fishes or hunts, if they're sharing stuff about that, then it could go either way, depending on who receives it. Who's receiving that information and what do they choose to do with it? But I agree that having a voice or the river being closed and not having a voice anymore, if people don't feel like they can dream, like if people know they can't go to that river and fish, you know, it sounds bad, but like, why would they care about protecting it? They're like, I'd rather protect something that I can still fish. Not that that's the right attitude to take, but I totally understand why people end up in that mindset. So I think you're right. There's probably a balance to be struck and there's going to be good apples and bad apples and a whole bunch of apples in between. But yeah, I was just curious since I haven't really ended up on this topic before.
Zack
Yeah, well, I'm glad we're going there, Katie.
Katie
That actually ties in nicely to what you're doing now. Tell me about your work with BHA.
Zack
Yeah, yeah. I've worked since 2019 for Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. My role started out just primarily as the editor and publisher of their quarterly print magazine, Backcountry Journal, which I still do to this day. My role has kind of morphed and expanded over seven years, where now my title is editorial and brand manager in addition. But working primarily behind the scenes on public lands and waters conservation issues. So in addition to publishing the magazine, behind the scenes, often crafting press releases and emails and communicating to our members and our supporters on the conservation issues that are critical in the moment. There's been a lot of them lately from an attempt to sell off of over 3 million acres of public lands in the West last summer to right now, issues like, the roadless rule and mining in the boundary waters, canoe area wilderness in Minnesota and, proposed road for mining in Alaska called the Ambler road, stuff like that. So those are the issues that I'm working on and, feel pretty passionate about, public lands and waters. They've, they've, all of this that they've given me in my life is directly related to public land and water. So trying my best to give a little back.
Katie
These topics have come up a lot recently on the show, naturally, because that's what's going on right now. And this episode won't come out for a little bit. So I always give the kind of caveat that things could change. I mean, the fight for clean public lands and waters is definitely not going to be over, but these specific issues may not be kind of what's in in a couple months. But can you just give a little overview about some of the things that are going on right now, like roadless rule, Ambler Road, Boundary Waters, stuff like that, just in case they are still kind of in the same state when this comes out, just so people can kind of be aware of what the big rocks are to move right now.
Zack
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, a lot of these, the ones we just mentioned will still be relevant in a few months and through the coming years. So the roadless rule. And last fall, the administration announced their intent to rescind the roadless rule. And the roadless rule, I mean, basically, across the United States, we have our national forest system. And the roadless rule was enacted 20 some years ago. Don't that hadn't had built roads built. And so there's basically the national forest system was, it's a multi-use system where we recreate on it, but also we log for timber and we mine and we do a lot of things and hopefully in a balance. And the roadless rule simply protected the tracks where we hadn't already built forest service roads. The roadless rule said we weren't going to build roads through those tracks and that we had enough roads already through our forest system land. And again, I'm not good on the hard facts without them in front of me, but we have something like enough to circumnavigate the world, you know, 14 times over or something just on our national forest lands. These are like the two tracks and dirt roads and stuff built by the Forest Service. So we're just going to save what little was left roadless. And from a fiscal perspective, it made a lot of sense because we can't afford to maintain the Forest Service roads we have. So why would we build more and cut more land up? And so there's been a lot of confusion around that roadless rule. But the current administration is trying to rescind that rule and open it up to building more roads. And I personally strongly disagree with that action. There's going to be a comment period coming up that will begin. And we had a comment period last fall. Um, the data shows that 99% of the public opposed that rule or opposed rescinding the rule. 99% of people want the roadless rule, but they're still moving forward with this. And there's going to be another public comment period coming up that should begin in March and be a 60 to 90 day comment period. So probably relevant when when this podcast comes out. But, you know, it protects, you know, our clean water for our trout fisheries. It's fiscally responsible to not build more roads when we can't afford to maintain the ones we have. There's myriad reasons, wildlife, habitat, just backcountry adventure and solitude. So Roadless rule is huge to me. the boundary waters there's a…
Katie
quick question on the road list actually before we move on, this is something I'm not sure about I know the concept of like areas that don't have roads is it are there like specific tracts of the forest service land that has been set aside as like this is a roadless area or is it like any area that's more than however far from an existing road is automatically part of the roadless rule like I don't know how the where like what designates a piece of forest service land as being in or out?
Zack
There's designated roadless areas. Okay. I am not the policy guru on a lot of this, but I believe that that is what we are referring to. And then you have wilderness, right, which was preserved, conserved by the Wilderness Act of 1964, which is not on the chopping block at this moment. And it's designated wilderness is different from just a roadless designation. But I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure on the criteria when we're talking roadless on what is, what is, you know, protected by the roadless rule and what isn't other than it's, it's a I want to say it's 38 million acres of land so yeah that's that's probably the best I can answer that for you
Katie
no worries no worries it's better than I better than I knew because I remember when I first heard about the road that's rule I was also confused about the wilderness thing because I was like well wilderness areas are what is roadless forest service is not roadless but I hadn't realized that there were parts of forest service that I almost think of them as like wilderness light now because yeah you know you could use a chainsaw but you couldn't drive on a road there
Zack
yep yep and yeah I mean it gets it gets even you know muddier like here in Montana we have wilderness study areas which were basically designated as suitable to become wilderness areas but have never been officially designated which takes an act of congress so they're kind of in limbo. So there's, oh, it gets, it gets complicated. You know, for me, I'm a big picture person. And I'm like, for me, like, I know that the roadless rule clearly like conserves land that I care about. And, you know, I'd like to see that remain now that there's obviously there's nuance, there's, there's arguments that, you know, the people who want to rescind something like that are like, well, we need to, you know, mitigate for fire and suppress fire there and all of this stuff. And so there's lots of like policy arguing, going back and forth. And I'm willing, you know, I like to try to listen to the nuance and then and then, you know, bring it back to the big picture and say, is this a net good or is this a net bad? So, yeah. But anyway, what were you going to bring up next? Well, I mean, so boundary waters, they just, there's a, there was a, 20 year mineral withdrawal and there's this, the boundary waters is designated wilderness next to the boundary waters. There's a proposed mine. Um, and the, the long story short, I mean, we could talk for a long time about this stuff is there is the 20 year mineral withdrawal enacted, preventing that mine from taking place. That is now the House just the other day passed a revoking that 20-year mineral withdrawal. And it will go to the Senate here likely in the near future. They're using this thing called the Congressional Review Act, which long story short has never, ever been used to do these types of things that were passed with public support. And, you know, protecting the boundary waters was one of those things that, again, had overwhelming public support during public comments. None of these things were done behind closed doors. And so Congress, unfortunately, right now is taking it on their own to go against, in a lot of cases, strong public opinion and to make these decisions on their own. And the argument you keep hearing with these mining projects, which includes this Ambler Road in Alaska and stuff, is that it's critical for national security. But so far, we've seen all the evidence points to they want to mine these minerals and ship them to China to be refined and then hit the open market. So how that benefits national security for our country, which is something, you know, a hot, easy thing to say. But how shipping stuff to China benefits our national security is is pretty debatable, to say the least. So, yeah, there's these these things aren't going away when they if when and if they revoke this mineral withdrawal. That doesn't mean the boundary waters is permitted or the mine near the boundary waters. Twin Metals Mine is permitted, still has to go through all the permitting, but it reopens the door to that. Um, and so, you know, the, the thing, yeah, I, you know, I work for backcountry hunters and anglers and we try to keep our, our membership and our supporters updated on these things. So you have the opportunity to speak up, to send an email, call your congressman when the time is right. Um, I think, you know, for, for anybody listening, you know, just making sure you're, you're in the know with some group and, and willing to consider the facts. and maybe you don't agree with me and stuff. And that's, you know, that's our right in this, democracy. Um, and that's okay. But, you know, trying to educate yourself on these issues, if you're an angler, I think that's, you know, that's one way you can offset your, what we were talking about earlier, you know, your impact as an angler is, trying to speak up and do what's right. So whether it's back country hunters and anglers or trout unlimited or some other group, just staying in the know, I think is, is a good, good thing you can do.
Katie
Maybe we can, start a, start a movement where for every fish picture you post, you've got to, you know, call a representative about something you care about or something. There's a, there's your voice.
Zack
Love it. Yeah. Love it. You know, and I like, you know, for me, like calling to me, calling like a congressman's office is, was like very intimidating, to start out. And then last year when they proposed selling all that public land, I said, you know, you got to push through that. And I started calling them. Sometimes you get a voicemail and sometimes, you know, one of their people who like, it's not like they're like six levels removed from the congressman. You know, they're these people who answer the phone are talking to the congressman. And so it's just like have a nice, respectful conversation and say, you know, this is really important to me as your constituent. And this is why. And it was, you know, it was a pretty painless experience. And obviously, you know, sending an email is even easier. But the phone calls really make a difference.
Katie
So yeah, I had the same experience. I called during the public lands thing. And I was also very kind of nervous about it. I don't know why. It's not like I was speaking to a group of people or anything. But what I did to make it easier, a tip I can give to to folks if they're feeling the same thing is I wrote out a script that I could kind of read from as I went. So I just went in my notes app, kind of wrote out the bullet points I wanted to hit. And in some cases even wrote out full sentences just that I didn't want to stumble over my words or something. And yeah, when the person picked up the phone, I was almost caught off guard. They were like, what do you want to say? And I was just able to kind of read. My name's Katie. I live in this zip code or whatever. I'm one of your constituents and I lot about this issue and here's why, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, okay, I'll pass your message along. So for anyone who's not really sure how that works, it really is as easy as just calling. And if you're nervous about, you know, going silent and forgetting, forgetting how to speak English, then just write yourself some bullet points or a little script to read off and your message will get passed along.
Zack
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I mean, you know, when you get a message from us or Trout Unlimited or whatever, a lot of times we provide a lot of talking points and we're like, Hey, here's, here's the key things, you know? And, so, you know, not hard.
Katie
Yeah. To end on a, a happy note, tell me some of the stuff you're doing these days in Montana now that that steelhead is again, not, not part of your identity anymore, but, you know, something that is in your past at the moment. Uh, what, what are you doing these days?
Zack
Um, well, I, I got real passionate about back country hunting and, you know, seeing what's over the next wild ridge and roadless land and stuff like that. So I like to, like to wander around doing that, as much as I can in particular in the fall, which was something I'd, you know, grown up bow hunting a little bit in Michigan and stuff like that. But I'd, I'd put it away when I became a steelhead guide because I was busy all fall. So, you know, kind of, experiencing some of the other things I used to be passionate about. And, I've got, I've got a five-year-old daughter and, you know, I, I like to laugh about, you know, I was at one point I was, I arguably a little too purist about my traditional flies and steelhead fishing with a spay rod. And, these days, I mean, my, my kid likes to, she's five, she likes to cast a fly rod, but I also am, happy to, throw a little chunk of power bait on the back of a fly to have her catch a trout in a in a stocked lake or we like to we've one of the things that I've been learning that I'd never like really done before but I I've been fishing me and her like to fish pike in the winter on the rivers around our house and we use like a a frozen dead herring on the bottom for pike and so I'm kind of like chucking my purist lifestyle again and doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I think this summer, I don't know how many people, I don't know if most people have done this, but one thing I realized a while ago is I've never caught a trout on a willow branch in an earthworm. And I want to cut a willow branch and tie a string to it and go fish a little stream with some Doug nightcrawlers. And that actually kind of feels like a little like different challenge to me. So I'm going to try to catch a little like some little, the brook trout here in Montana, you know, are non-native and they want them out of there. So I might try to go, you know, catch a meal brook trout on a worm and a branch.
Katie
A little Huck Finn action.
Zack
Yeah, I, you know, just doing different things and showing my kid the outdoors. That's pretty much my life other than some hunting trips in the fall. I'll go next year. I'll go pick up the spay rod for a trip to Argentina. And so, you know, trying to stay connected here and there. I travel to a couple of spay events and stuff every year and fish a little if I can, but trying to stay connected. But it's a smaller part of the big picture these days than it once was.
Katie
Sure. Well, ZacK, where can people find you if they want to visit website or learn more about public lands issues? Where can they find those things?
Zack
Public land issues is backcountryhunters.org or at backcountryhunters. on Backcountry Hunters, at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers on social media, but backcountryhunters.org. My own personal stuff, which we didn't get into as much, but Swing the Fly is my publishing company, media company, and that's at Swing the Fly or swingthefly.com is probably the easiest way to track me down.
Katie
Perfect. Well, I just want to thank you for taking the time And again, for your flexibility on this, I know scheduling was a bit of a hassle. So I just really appreciate this. And hopefully people take some of this to heart when it comes to, you know, contacting the representatives and keeping an eye on some of these things that we care about. So I just appreciate it.
Zack
Yeah, thanks for the great conversation, Katie.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntame.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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