Ep 162: Improving Your Fishing Writing and Fishing in Washington, with Erin Spaulding
Erin Spaulding is an angler, runner, and writer who has published work in the Flyfish Journal and the Drake, among other publications. In this episode, we talk about her experiences fishing the alpine of Washington as well as Puget Sound, her tips on being a better fishing writer, how she has dealt with a hyper-focus on fishing, and a story of getting stuck on Christmas Island due to a storm.
Instagram: @ink_and_flyline
Website: https://sightlinesstudio.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast your home for fly fish in the backcountry. this is episode 162 with Erin Spaulding on improving your fishing writing and fishing in Washington. Well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and into fly fishing. So I'd love to hear how you were first introduced to the fly fishing world.
Erin
Yeah, so I guess I'm kind of the stereotypical. My partner got me into it. My husband got me into fly fishing specifically, but I've been fishing ever since I was little. I grew up in northern Michigan. My parents had a little pond in the backyard and we would, you know, fish for panfish. We'd use worms that we dug out of the backyard and balled up bread and, you know, just catch fish. And so I was doing that for years. And then my husband and I are actually from the same area. We went to different high schools. So we weren't high school sweethearts, but we were in the same vicinity. And when we reconnected 10 years later after high school, he taught me then. So that would have been about 2012, 2013, I want to say, when he introduced me to it. And he has a family cottage in Brooklyn, Michigan. And my introduction of fly fishing was using poppers on the surface for bass. And that was just magical.
Katie
It sounds like a really good transition from, you know, using bait or spin fishing to fly fishing. A lot of people go straight from using, you know, power bait or worms to like fishing for trout with dry flies and it's like a very different experience but I feel like popper fishing for bass is kind of like halfway in between because popper flies are are kind of like lures in a lot of ways more than they are flies
Erin
yeah completely and we especially like when you get those really plasticky ones that just make that like clunky sound across the surface it's just it's amazing
Katie
is fishing kind of a requirement for growing up in northern Michigan? I feel like every kid in that area must grow up like fishing with their family. I feel like that's like the fishiest part of the country
Erin
totally Just from my experience, yeah, I grew up in a very small town. And when you have nothing else to do, fishing is definitely on the list. But, you know, ironically, I never got into ice fishing until I actually left and we moved out to the Pacific Northwest. But, you know, summertime fishing, definitely. Every kid's going out on a dock or, you know, going out on the lakes. And it's just it's amazing. It's so much fun.
Katie
Is ice fishing a big thing in the Pacific Northwest?
Erin
No, because it's so mild on the side of the Cascade Mountains. You'll find it in like eastern Washington, eastern Oregon. But because we don't really get winters out here, it's so mild. So I'm currently in Vancouver, Washington, but we lived in Seattle for eight years. And really, you have to really get up in altitude to get to the ice. No one wants to go ice fishing up in a high alpine lake. But yeah, it's ironic that I discovered ice fishing and then we moved out to an area that really just doesn't have it.
Katie
Okay, yeah, that's what I was thinking. I haven't spent a lot of time in Washington in the winter, but the impression I had was that it's not like a super severe winter. So do you do any like alpine ice fishing or is ice fishing kind of in the past for you now? It's in the past. It was just a brief moment.
Erin
So yeah, high alpine is just summers only.
Katie
Tell me a little bit about the high alpine fishing in Washington. because I saw you had written that down as something you like to do. And it's not that I think that there's no, you know, high alpine lakes up in the Pacific Northwest, but I think of alpine lake fishing as being more of a Colorado, Wyoming, Utah kind of thing, like that, and maybe Montana, like that region of the country, like the Rockies. And I don't hear a lot about high alpine lake fishing in Washington, Oregon, that kind of area. So tell me like what it's like up there. What kind of lakes do you have? What do you fish for? Things like that.
Erin
Yeah. So my friend who she's from Maryland and she lives in Seattle, she introduced me to hiking in the Pacific Northwest and I introduced her to fly fishing. So it was this just interesting trade off of, you know, Intel and what we like to do. And so she tends to do a lot of overnight backpacking trips, but really you go anywhere down like I-90, US-2, and you're going to get into some, you know, good elevation. You're not really high up there, but you're probably getting up to about anywhere from like four to six thousand feet. And you can access these trails that are anywhere from like three miles to eight miles. You can really get in the backcountry. There's a lot of really awesome lakes that are stocked with golden trout, which I have yet to catch one of those. But West Slope cutthroats are like prime fishing. They're just so much fun. They're gorgeous fish. And they're pretty much everywhere all along the Cascade Mountains. I'm just starting to explore Oregon a little bit more. But Washington has so many great lakes. I could name drop, but I don't want to blow these places up. I mean, honestly, if you're on the Washington Trails Association pages and you're just looking up hikes, just add lake to it. And I'm sure you can find something that's fishable.
Katie
I had no idea you guys had golden trout up there. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Is that a program that they're trying to establish populations?
Erin
I don't know enough of the history. As far as the stocking, I'm sure it's one of those things, kind of like brown trout were at some point brought out here, and they decided, oh, you know what, let's keep stocking these. It seems like a good idea. Are they native? I have no idea.
Katie
Probably not. Yeah, I think that's California. I think everything outside California is non-native, but I'm happy to catch them here, too. We don't have a lot of places to catch them in Colorado, but there are a couple. And I know there's a lot in Wyoming and they get big there.
Erin
So what kind of, when you're doing the high alpine in Colorado, what kind of fish are you going for?
Katie
Usually cutthroats as well, but there's a lot of brook trout too. I don't know if you guys have any brookies in your alpine lakes, but I feel like brook trout and cutthroats are the top two for us for sure.
Erin
Yeah, we don't really get a lot of brookies out here, which is surprising. So anytime I get a little closer your way, I'm like always going for the brookies. I did a hike with a friend in Utah and stocked full of brook trout. It was amazing.
Katie
It's funny because, you know, brook trout aren't native here. They're not native in Washington either. But it's weird that Colorado has chosen that as it's like non-native of choice to, you know, throw everywhere. And you guys haven't. You've chosen something else. And, you know, it makes you wonder kind of what the logic behind that is. I totally understand stocking the native species. But, you know, choosing for Colorado to choose brook trout as its like main thing to throw in these alpine lakes. You know, I wonder what the reasoning behind that is. We have rainbows and browns, too, but I don't find those as much in the high alpine lakes. I don't know if you guys have rainbows and browns and they're also just like lower down. That's just something I've noticed.
Erin
We don't really get a lot of browns up there. Definitely rainbows and cutthroat seem to be the primary fish. I think if you go down to Oregon, there might be some lakes that are stocked. Actually, I do know. I haven't been, but apparently there are some good lakes with brook trout in there. But I think just the lakes that I've been to, we just don't get them. But yeah, browns are definitely more the lowland type fish to catch. Still super fun.
Katie
What do you like about the high alpine kind of backcountry hiking experience? What does it for you?
Erin
I think it's, so I think part of it is a combination of inaccessibility. Like it's obviously accessible. You just got to work for it a little bit more. I grew up running you know I was on the track team I have done some marathons it's just what I like to do so if I can combine that with the outdoors and then also fly fishing it's kind of like one of those you know double wins in my book right right and then especially just meeting people that like to do it too there's a lot of communities out here a lot of other friends that I go out with And it's just fun to do something that's not on the main drag. It's, you know, kind of out literally in the middle of nowhere. And just the whole challenge aspect of it, I think, is just really special.
Katie
When you say you like the inaccessibility of it, is that because you like to get away from crowds or you just like to push yourself and see what your body can do in kind of the face of a challenge like that? Or maybe it's both.
Erin
I think both, but it's probably more or less the challenge aspect. I'm one of those people that are very goal oriented. So if it's, you know, a harder hike or if there's a lot of elevation gain, you know, it just kind of makes the reward that much better. And I do enjoy hiking in general, but now I'm kind of approached it where if there isn't fishing involved in the hike, then it's just kind of like, it's okay, you know.
Katie
Yeah, I'm with you there. If I'm not summoning something or getting to fish for something along the way, I'm like, I kind of lose a little bit of interest, which in some ways is kind of sad to me. I'm like, I should just be like, be happy to be out there. But for the most part, I like something to be at the end. Either I accomplished like reaching the top of the peak or I get to fish at the end. And I can kill two birds with one stone that way or I can just go for a walk. Totally. I feel like I get more bang for my buck if I get to go fishing.
Erin
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I'm sure we're going to touch on this a little bit. But, you know, the flyathlon is one of those prime examples of an event that combines this whole idea of like pushing yourself physically. But then you get, you know, that that challenge of trying to catch a fish. And it very it goes along well with my type of personality where, you know, I'm very goal oriented. You know, I'm hyper focused on things. So if there is a task at hand, I'm going to, you know, totally be all in on it. So for sure, it's just a beautiful combination of things.
Katie
I do want to come back around to the flyathlon and hear how you got introduced to that, but a little bit more on the alpine backcountry stuff up there. Do you do a lot of overnight trips or are you typically doing day trips up to the alpine lakes?
Erin
We're typically just doing daytime trips. Now that I am elsewhere from my hiking friend, we do more overnights. Usually just one night, maybe two nights. If I could, I would take a whole week and just escape to the backcountry. But really, as long as you block off your day and you're leaving at maybe 6, 7 in the morning, you don't mind getting up a little early, get out to the mountains, you can really knock these out in a day, which is kind of fun because it doesn't take up your whole weekend. You can still get into other things if you need to. But yeah, I think the overnights are just special too because then you get both, obviously, you get morning hatches, evening hatches, and you get the best of both worlds.
Katie
What does your day kit look like? I've talked to a lot of people about their kind of overnight, like gear, you know, tents, sleeping bags, stuff like that. But I don't, I haven't talked a lot about, you know, what someone's taking for a day because that can look a lot different, especially if you're trying to get up and get out pretty quickly. Like you might pare things down more than if you've got a full overnight bag and you're like, I mean, you know, throw in everything but the kitchen sink. You know, what does a kind of your day kit look like for some of these longer trips where you are going to be out away from civilization, away from your car and from amenities, but you want to have, you know, enough stuff to actually get the fishing done and stay safe out there. What does that look like for you?
Erin
Yeah, it's interesting how I've kind of, you know, scaled back. And I think that might be the case for a lot of people that go out, you know, you feel like you need the kitchen sink, you need every possible thing that you might need. And especially if it's like really just like an overnight, as long as you're covering yourself, the fishing can come secondary as long as you've got you know nippers I always have a selection of dry flies and our go-to is I always have a woolly bugger it's a go-to fly for me so a little combination of something that sinks something that floats I'm probably going to lose a couple of them so I don't take a bunch of boxes but I always have some backups and then you know honestly I just have nail clippers because sometimes you need to clip your nails or you know clip whatever and you don't need all the fancy gear as long as you can you know I have there's been a few cases where we'll go out on a hike and I've realized they've either forgotten my reel or I've forgotten all my flies and I've run across some people that have been out fishing themselves and they're you know kind enough to donate a fly or two and you know if because we're not way back out there we usually run into some people and you know it's a nice little community people can swap if they need to have you ever bummed a reel off somebody no but I kind of hope I don't run into that situation
Katie
do you take I usually don't take like all your fly boxes what does your fly box look like when you when you go into these areas because like for me I take if I'm going like just in the car somewhere I'm taking all my boxes I'm like whatever I'll you know whatever I need I want to have in the backcountry I'm kind of like I pare it down a little bit and I have just a box for the backcountry only and it like doesn't have everything and it almost always has what I need but like I am risking the you know they're only taking this one thing and I don't have that and I guess I've just settled with I guess I might not catch a fish that day if that's the case what does that look like for you? what does pared down for you look like?
Erin
it really depends on the time of year if it's late enough in the year I'm always packing some type of hopper and I kind of roll the dice sun might dry then. So I'm going for, you know, something with a little bit of foam on it. Maybe I'm sacrificing a little tiny mayfly or something, but I feel like the gamble's kind of worth it at that point because they're most likely going to be eating hoppers at that point. But if it's earlier in the year, I'm sticking to very small tiny flies. I notice fish get a little more picky, especially if they get a little spookier, if they get hit up quite a bit. But I feel like with these Flakes, you know, they don't get a lot of pressure. So generally, whatever you throw out there, as long as you're in the right time of year with that bug, you should be doing pretty good. But general rule of thumb for me is I always have purple haze as my dry or, like I said, a woolly bugger. And I know that's kind of, I guess people call it like an intro basic fly, but it's seriously our favorite. We just love it.
Katie
I mean, I would say like 90% of what I use is like the most, the five most basic flies I could pull out of a box. yeah what is there you may have mentioned it by saying that you use like a purple haze and a woolly bugger and you have some hoppers and things but is there is there anything about the pacific northwest lakes that kind of like the the fish really key in on certain things like I'm thinking here like I feel like a foam beetle or flying ant is like money on a high alpine lake even though I used to I usually still throw something like an atoms on first just because it's my go-to those are kind of like if nothing's working I know I can put a foam beetle on and like something's going to eat it on an alpine lake that's like what they want do you have anything like that where you're just like this is the key if you can't figure it out like this will catch you a fish. I feel like the purple haze is kind of like that
Erin
yeah my friend she went on a hike this was a couple years ago and she just sent me a photo of the cutthroat she caught and it was seriously like a 20 inch cutthroat and it was the biggest fish I've ever seen and I screamed of course when I got it and she just caught it on this little tiny ant, just the tiniest little bug. So I feel like the smaller you can go, the better you are.
Katie
I might stand out a little bit from the naturals too. I don't know. Like I know a lot of people like to size up or size down. I tend to size up a little bit, but I hear some people sizing down to kind of like stand out from the naturals. I don't know if that matters too much on the Alpine Lake because I don't feel like I see those like big blanket hatches up there. But sometimes I feel like just having something a little bit different than what they're looking for, but close enough is like what gets them to take it.
Erin
Completely. I know we always, my friend and I always kind of play this game when we're hiking and we go to these lakes and there's one lake that we go to, there's zero vegetation around it. It's just completely desolate. It's just surrounded by all these boulders and rocks and, you know, the mountain goats are up there and we have no idea what those fish are eating. Like how do they sustain themselves in the winter? And so we kind of play this game of like, what are you eating? So you just kind of throw out whatever might work and usually it does.
Katie
Do you ever play around with them? Like, I don't know if you have any lakes where you're just catching fish after fish and you kind of throw on things that you're like, I don't think this is going to work, but I want to like test it out. Like I've thrown on like a bumblebee fly being like, they've eaten everything else in my box. Like, let's see how kind of like weird I can get. Do you have, have you had any days like that?
Erin
Yeah. I do quite a bit of fishing in the sound or at least I used to when I lived near the Puget Sound. But I would throw baitfish just to see. No one ever ate it, but I always thought, you know, what the hell?
Katie
And speaking of that, like the lower down stuff, do you do any like steelheading or anything like that? It sounds like you do fish in the sound. I don't know what you catch there, but like what other kinds of fishing do you have up in the Washington area?
Erin
I feel like I'm one of the few, my husband and I are one of the few that don't actually chase steelhead. I think part of that is just because we didn't really get much exposure to it. Like we have friends that go after steelhead and they are like hardcore, but we also know they're the fish of a thousand casts, takes a lot of patience, certain access to certain rivers at certain times of year. So we've just kind of, you know, not gone on the steelhead train, which we're okay with. So what we primarily fish for in Seattle is a sea run cutthroat. It's really interesting, too, when you're going from fishing lakes or fishing rivers. You know, it's easy to read the water and you kind of know what you're looking for when you're fishing a stream or river. Well, when you're fishing open water like the Puget Sound, you have no idea what you're doing. you're out on this beach, you're looking around, you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. So it's taken a couple of years of just dialing in, understanding tides, incoming, outcoming, if it's going to be a little, you know, overcast is ideal. There's going to be a little ripple in the water. You can do topwater flies, you can do intermediate line and, you know, kind of strip a fly along and they, they can get really aggressive too, which is really fun. Sometimes you'll find them in the same location. Sometimes they'll move around. So it's kind of a crapshoot where they are, but it's super fun because like, you know, you'll just be standing on this beach and kind of zoning out. And then all of a sudden, you know, you feel this really hard take on your line and it just goes. Is it ever something else on the end of your line?
Katie
Like, I don't know much about the Puget Sound, but I assume that like other species could come in from the ocean. Is it pretty guaranteed that you can like target, you know, the cutthroats that you're targeting? Or do you ever get like other random species that are just swimming around in the sound?
Erin
So the first fish I've ever caught out of the saltwater in the Pacific Northwest was the fish. And that's only because I let my fly sing too much. And, you know, it was a great joke. But yeah, we've had sculpin on the end of our line. We've caught flounder. I've caught a couple coho, which has been super fun. So there's lots of salmon that run through. I haven't caught like a really big salmon in the sound. But yeah, anytime people ask like, oh, what are you going for? We always say whatever bites, because chances are it's something random.
Katie
This is just a question from somebody who has never fished up there, but it's a sea run cutthroat, its own species, or is it like a sea run version of some other species of cutthroat? Kind of like has steelhead as a sea run version of a rainbow trout.
Erin
I know I'm going to get corrected on this, but I want to say it's its own. It is closely related to the salmon family. It's not a salmon, though, but it's basically a sea run trout. It is a cutthroat, so I'm not entirely sure what that would be. That's something I should actually Google. But there is an organization that monitors them and has been doing, because there really isn't a whole bunch that's been studied on searun cutthroat. I need to look up the author on this, but there's an organization called the Coastal Cutthroat Coalition, and they've been tracking and having angler driven science. So they encourage any anglers who are catching them to report where they're catching them, if they have any sea lice on them, just understanding their habitat and how many there are and where they're coming from. They are anywhere from up in Alaska all the way down to Northern California. You can find them. They're actually pretty widespread, too.
Katie
Are they doing fairly well, you know, compared to some of the other things like steelhead and salmon that I know just are struggling due to, you know, various threats in the rivers?
Erin
Yeah, they're actually doing, they're pretty resilient fish. I think when you're a trout, you just have a little more resiliency. I'm obviously not a fish biologist, so I can't speak to it, but they do monitor the populations. They have their declines in pickups, but I don't think they're as delicate as, you know, our salmon and steelhead, steelhead especially. and there's just such a widespread. They don't have a very specific habitat. They're kind of everywhere. Anywhere that there's access to saltwater, they're going to be running up rivers and then running back out on the coast. Yeah.
Katie
We touched briefly on the flyathlon and I want to get into your writing a little bit, but I would love to hear first how you got introduced to the fly it sounds like we may have met at some point, but probably not in a way that was like meaningful. Like we may have crossed paths at a fire one of these years. High fived or something. Yeah. So I'm not sure if I got your name through the flyathlon. I have like a running list of people who like sound like they'd be cool to reach out to. And you were on that list. But I have no idea if that came from the flyathlon or if that was just like a happy accident afterward because I was like, huh, she's on the flyathlon. So I'd love to hear how you were introduced to that and kind of found your way into that race. Yeah.
Erin
My husband actually stumbled upon it and I don't know exactly how he found it. It wasn't to the point that it blew up, I guess, how it is now, which is great. I think it was just a post that he found and he sent it to me or something on social media. I was at the time working at Brooks Running, which is a running shoe company. And so, you know, very much into running, very much into fly fishing. And then, you know, the bonus, you know, beer element. It's like, oh, this is kind of like right up my alley. And we kind of carved out some time and figured we would just travel to Denver and then, you know, make our way down to Saguache and try out the Middle Creek. And, yeah, I wish there was a cooler story for me stumbling upon it. But it was just kind of like one of those random things like, yeah, this sounds pretty cool. So, yeah, I think it was the 2016 flyathlon. I did the short course and I ended up winning the short course. And that has never happened again. Never will happen again. But it was just such a fun time. You meet so many people from all over. And I've met random people there that I'm still in touch with on Facebook and, you know, just checking every now and then. We actually went back in 2021 and ran into the same people that we saw before and have kept in touch with Andrew Todd. And, of course, he's a great guy. And, yeah, it's just such a blast.
Katie
It is kind of funny how you can come back years later and it's like the same group of people. And people tend to stick to the same race. I've switched from Lake Fork to Middle Creek after, I don't know, two or three years of doing Lake Fork. But now I'm pretty solidly on the Middle Creek train just because of the dates. The dates work out better for me. But it is fun to just see the same faces every year. Like people keep coming back to the same race. Some people do both. But it's just fun to know that like you're going to show up and see like 20 of your friends that you haven't seen in the last year, but they're all going to be there. Yeah.
Erin
And it was the second one was right after COVID too. Or, you know, we're still kind of in it, but it was when the world was kind of reopening And we're like, a group race event? What is this? This is amazing. We miss this so much. And it's funny, too. I noticed how the, you know, we saw people that we saw the first year. But then I think because the word kind of got out about the race, you have people that are actually competing. Like, you have strong runners who are, you know, out there and they're hitting the elevation. And, you know, coming from lowland, you know, I get up in those hills and I'm just sucking wind totally. I'm, like, barely up the hill. And, you know, people are already making their way down and they're like smiling and having a good time. So my goal this past year was definitely to focus more on the fish I was going to catch instead of my time. So my goal was to catch a native Rio Grande cutthroat, which I did. It took a lot of time, but I was back there forever. I probably had one of the slowest race times, but I didn't care.
Katie
You know, that has I don't know if that has changed since you did it last. But I feel like for a while, at least at Middle Creek, it was about who could finish fastest without not catching a fish. You know, if you caught basically any fish and you finished, that you would win. Because the cutthroats were small enough at that time that if someone took the extra time to go back down the hill on the end. So just for a background for people who don't know, most of the course to the turnaround point is non-native fish. And then you can choose optionally to keep running down the hill on the other side to get a chance at a cutthroat. which kind of gives you double your time off. And so people would go down there either because they wanted to catch a native or because they were like, I'm going to try to go for double points, basically. But the fish weren't big enough to really offset the time it took to go back there and like all squeeze in and catch fish. And so it was usually won by somebody who just, who booked it and turned around and caught some little brookie and called it a day. The cutthroats are now getting big enough that it's typically won by somebody who just gets a really big cutthroat. And really big here is relative. We're talking like maybe 10 inches, but a 10 inch cutthroat with double points going against like a five inch brook trout from the front side is now starting to kind of offset it. But it's also kind of being doubly offset by the fact that everyone's now going back there to do it. And so it's like a bunch of people packed into a tiny spot. So if you're not one of the first people back there, you're also unlikely to get one of those big cutthroats. It's like there's weird dynamics going on now where like you have no idea who's actually going to come in with the victory at the end. That's really funny, too.
Erin
I think my cutthroat was like, I couldn't even barely catch it in the net. It was maybe three inches. It was one of the smallest fish I've ever caught, but it was, you know, it might as well have been a whale in my book. But yeah, it's interesting. You know, I kind of scouted out the trail the day before and I had, I knew the spot I needed to go to. And, you know, although I was kind of taking my time getting back there, the spot was open. And then a couple of times, you know, somebody came down the embankment and, you know, they're hoping I was leaving and I wasn't going anywhere.
Katie
I'm parked here now. Yep. Yeah, the Lake Fork one is, I think, a little bit more heavily dependent on the fish because there's some big fish in the Lake Fork. So, like, you could catch a, you know, an 18-inch fish and it's not going to be a, they don't have natives there. At least when I was there, there wasn't. But, you know, that could really offset your time. But it's fun to see the Middle Creek. What kind of fish are you catching there? I remember rainbows and browns. Okay. So you could catch a pretty good size brown. Yeah, yeah. You could catch like a, you would catch fish there where you're like, this fish itself is a trophy. Whereas like in Middle Creek, you're kind of like, it's cool that this fish is native, but it's not actually like massive, you know, it's just like big for a native fish or something. So yeah, the Lake Fork one, and it's also harder fishing at Lake Fork. Like, you know, you're fishing for potentially big fish in a much bigger river. So it's cool though. I feel like the Lake Fork is more of an angler's challenge and the run is like very flat and easy. And Middle Creek is more of a runner's challenge where you're going up over hills and it's much more topography. But like most people are going to catch a fish at Middle Creek. It's not terribly hard to catch a little brook trout out on one of those beaver ponds.
Erin
Yeah. And the first time I remember seeing that trail, it was the river is maybe, I don't know, two feet wide. It gets narrows in some spots. And I'm thinking, are there fish in here? But yeah, there were some hungry fish back there.
Katie
Do you have any plans to come back and do another one?
Erin
Oh, I'm sure I will. Nothing immediate. But yeah, even if we're just hanging out and I'm not doing the actual race itself, I think it's just fun to hang out and I don't know, maybe not read another story about it or, you know, find another publication that wants to take it and just hang out and take photos or videos or any excuse I have to get back there.
Katie
Did you do the long distance one during COVID where it was like a do it at your own pace in your own area?
Erin
we did I'm trying to remember where I went I I think I ended up catching a sea run cutthroat for that one and then I just did you know like a three mile run that day and my husband I actually fish more than my husband now which is kind of the funny part but he did it with me he caught a really big fish and then you know we're going to bed and we're laying there and I'm like you have to do your run because you know with the flyathlon you've got to run catch your fish on the day. And so he ended up going out to our cul-de-sac and just doing like three loops and called it called it good. I don't know if that's in the spirit of it, but he's also not a runner. So it kind of explains it. Did you do it?
Katie
Yeah, I did. I did. And I think we just did a hike because it just had to be like some level of foot travel. I don't mean, it didn't have to be a run. I mean, I walk half the flyathlon too. So it's not like they're timing you. But I think we did a a big hike. I think we did like a 16 mile hike and went way back into some lakes and caught some cutthroats. So it was a good day. Yeah. Nice. Fun. You mentioned like publications and stuff. This would be a good time to talk to you about your writing because I know writing is a big part of your life and it sounds like you're tied into that with your day job as well. So I'd love to hear about your day job and how you have kind of pivoted that into the fly fishing world as well.
Erin
Yeah. So my background is print journalism. I graduated college at the worst time to have a print journalism degree. This was 2008. So newspapers were handing out pink slips all over the country. But I just happened to be able to land a job at a Newsweekly back in northern Michigan. So I wrote feature articles for five years. So topics ran from usually people interest stories to events, just kind of anything and everything. And then we lived in Chicago for a bit, moved out Pacific Northwest. And then I started kind of playing around with the idea of getting into freelance writing. I had never written for a national publication. And I, so my goal at that point was, okay, I'm going to try to get into a fly fishing magazine. And so I remember the first article I wrote, I tried to pitch it to the Fly Fish Journal. And the whole premise of it was how much I don't know about fly fishing, you know, how much I'm struggling, you know, sometimes I'm not putting the line through all the guides. And, you know, I hate to say it, but that's not what magazines are looking for. So it was actually the flyathlon writing about that experience that I got my first published article, which was really exciting. So that got printed in the fly fish journal. And since then, I've been just writing about random topics, always revolved around fly fishing for the Drake. I've written a piece for Patagonia, Sage Fly Fishing, their website. And really, it's just more of a first person experience thing. And my day job is I'm a communications manager at an engineering firm. So I work with engineers, has nothing to do with fishing. But I write every day. And I feel like that definitely helps me and, you know, my freelance writing and I've actually been doing more video and film editing. So taking a step back from writing, it's still the same premise of storytelling. So yeah, it's just an interesting little journey that you kind of go on when you have an idea of what you're doing in your career and then you just kind of take these little side channels every now and then and, you know, just kind of see what's out there.
Katie
When you said that the journals weren't interested in things, I don't know how to, or I'm still struggling to fly fish even after all this time. What is it that they are looking for? Like what makes a story that really stands out to the various publications?
Erin
So I think now that I look at it in hindsight, I think if you're new to fly fishing, you can write about being new to fly fishing. I think every publication is looking for an angle of a story that isn't just the experience of I'm going out and I'm going to try to catch this fish because usually a really good fishing story isn't about the fish at all. It's something else that is connected to whatever you're talking about. It's usually a little more broad picture. There's a little bit of life philosophy. It's about your experience in general as a human being, not just as like an angler trying to catch a fish so yeah if I were to give some tips for people who want to try to get into writing for fly fishing if you're an angler and you're like you know what I i feel like i've got some thoughts on fishing and I would like to get published I guess some of my tips would be just to write what you know so writing about your experiences and part of that is always showing not telling. So you can go out and let's say you took this amazing trip rather than just telling us about that experience. Like put us in that, put us in that place that you were at. You know, we want to smell the smells. We want to hear the sounds. We want to like, it's basically an experience. And that's kind of what fly fishing is all about is that experience. Another part of that is just write. If you are passionate about writing and you're passionate about your experience, then that is just going to kind of come through to editors and ask for feedback. Like if you submit something and, you know, it doesn't go through, you can ask why or what you can improve on. You know, don't hound the editor because they're busy, but it also doesn't hurt to just kind of run it by some of your fly fishing friends or your writer friends or somebody you trust to give you honest feedback. and they can kind of tell you the things that might be missing or that didn't quite connect and just be open to feedback really.
Katie
This might be kind of just the like the opposite of what you just said or maybe there's some other things in here but I'm also curious what mistakes people make you know if they if they're like I think that you know I've got a really cool fly fishing story that all these publications are going to eat up what are some mistakes they might make that would potentially ruin that for them beyond just like not knowing how to write well. What could they mess up?
Erin
I'm sure the editors see it way more I'm sure they see it all the time but I think my assumption would be just the telling instead of the showing really not having a broader spectrum to that story where you know they're just talking about that specific moment, that specific fish, that specific trip. But, you know, as a reader or as an editor, you want to know, well, what about it? Why should I care about this story? Like, can I see myself in this story? Why, kind of, why should I care about this? And I know that's kind of a very broad response, but I think when you're a good writer, you're able to show us something and kind of let us lead to that conclusion rather than telling us how to feel about it or, you know, trying to create some stoke by, you know, how awesome your trip was.
Katie
I think that's a mistake beyond just writing for publication. I think that's a mistake people make when they're telling a story even, like verbally. You know, to them, it's really exciting because they went out and caught this big fish and their story is it basically ends up being like I went out and I caught this big fish and I'm kind of like who cares you know like I'm sure I'm sure it was really fun for you to do that but like this story is like not engaging in the slightest like I don't really care how big your fish was and I feel like there's an art to telling a story where even if even if all that happened was you went out and caught a big fish you know you set it up in a way that's like you know funny along the way or you don't know how it's going to end because like things are going so horribly wrong and then you catch the big fish or something like there's There's a way to get to the end of that story in an engaging way. And there's a way to get there that's just like, look at me, I caught this big fish. And the way that's engaging, no one actually cares that you caught the big fish in the end. Like everything they care about is in the lead up to that and how you present it and how you tell it and your delivery of it. And I feel like that's kind of, it sounds like what you're describing here where it's like it's about the delivery and what you think to include that maybe might intrigue somebody that's not. It's not at all relevant to the fish itself, but it happens to include fishing because that's what people want to read about. So I think this might be like a broader tip in general for just like conveying what's interesting about fishing. Like it's very rarely the fish itself and how many inches it was.
Erin
Yeah. And a lot of that, too, is vulnerability. Like you need to be able to be vulnerable and, you know, show that you've messed up. And like, yeah, it was really challenging. you know, I've had stories where, like, I've had a really big fish on the line, and like, I didn't land it. And that wasn't the point. It was like the struggle I had, and the things I did wrong, and, you know, being able to laugh at myself about it, you know, you can find a lot of really funny stories about that. So it's funny, too, when you people talk about, you know, like, fishing photos, and like, you know, you have this big fish, and it's like, you know, the grip and grin trick type thing, where it's like, okay, cool, that's awesome. You got a big fish, but like, what about it? Like what, what makes this a cool experience for you?
Katie
Right. I mean, some of my, like, if I had to think back on some of my favorite fishing memories, very few of them have anything to do with like the size of the fish at the end. Like I've, my biggest fish are not my most memorable experiences. And I would guess like most diehard anglers would agree with that, that it's not just like, well, and that was one inch longer than the last one. So that, that was one inch better of a story than the other one. Like it's about the time that you got caught in a thunderstorm when you to and you got absolutely soaked, but you still had a good time or like that kind of stuff that like where you look back and you're like, oh, that was my favorite fish I've ever caught. Not because it was big, but because of like what happened around it. Yeah, definitely. Tell me a little bit about the publications themselves. I'm just kind of curious as somebody who's never submitted any kind of writing to publication, like are they very different from one another? Do they all kind of behave the same way? Do they have their own like quirks and idiosyncrasies that people will find if they like submit to the Fly Fish Journal versus the Drake?
Erin
yeah I feel like they they have they all have very similar processes where it's hard to just kind of pitch an idea and say are you interested in this story like really what you need to do is just have your story write it and then submit it and see if that's something that they'd be interested in there's different styles the drake has a lot of different sections or pieces of the magazine that you know are shorter just kind of short clip type informational like news spots where it's like you know this is what's going on in the fishing world and then they'll have like longer form type stories whereas the fly fish journal they have a section called cut paint that is a little shorter so if you've got like a little story that you want to share you can do that but for the most part the fly fish journal I guess if you were talking about style. I don't want to say artsy because I know they're going to be mad at me for using that word, but like you think about the type of photography that they have. It's very introspective, a little more philosophical, less newsy, more featurey, if that makes sense. So depending on the style of the story you're trying to say it's going to have a different home the drake is a mix of again that more newsy type feel but all the editors that i've worked have worked with have gone through that same process of you know you submit a draft they will either accept it as is which for me is never the case they're always going to have some type of feedback on it which is fine and then you know we kind work on some edits and then it gets published just depending on their schedules. I would also say if you're looking at timing see what different publications what their what their dates are. So I believe the Fly Fish Journal is a quarterly so you're going to have your different seasons that it comes out. So kind of anticipating what those seasons are. Will that help you? Like if fall is
Katie
coming out would you be more likely to get something published if it kind of takes place in the fall or has like a fall kind of feel or is that not something that you've noticed that they care about?
Erin
they will take it anyway but I think if you time it well where you know really if they're planning for a fall issue they're going to want those things by spring early summer because they're always thinking you know it's kind of like fashion they're thinking like the next season ahead I'm not an editor so I can't really speak for that but usually the experiences you have it's kind of good to just kind of sit on them for a little bit and then you know let it let it formulate a little bit have a little more introspection on it take some time to write about it and then submit it and if the season works out great they can always hold on to it there's really no huge timing for submitting I think it's just you know helping they're available to take a look at it and most of the publications I've worked with there I've always gotten some type of feedback or if you do get crickets, which has happened, just, you know, assume that they've, they haven't accepted it and kind of move on.
Katie
last question about maybe writing tips. We talked about tips for getting accepted at a publication, like what kinds of things they're looking for. I'm curious if you have any tips on the writing itself. You kind of mentioned something right there with like, you know, write it, stew on it for a little bit. Do you like, do you have any like actual process tips on, just getting your writing to end up being like a good final product, whether that waiting for inspiration, looking for inspiration, trying to find inspiration in like small things that wouldn't necessarily stand out to somebody. And in the writing itself, you know, do you throw stuff down on paper and then come back and refine? Do you really try to pick your words carefully as you go? I'm just curious kind of like what the writing process looks like for kind of a successful writer.
Erin
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it really just depends on what's going on. For me personally, I will think about a topic and it will just kind of cross my mind and, you know, I'll kind of put it away for a bit. And then I'll be, you know, usually I'm out fishing. And, you know, when you're out there, you just kind of have your thoughts to yourself and you have that time to kind of ruminate. I'll think of something else and I'll make that connection. And then usually I'll have an idea and then I slowly start to build on that idea. And just depending on what I'm doing or what I'm experiencing, I think to myself, would this like resonate with anybody else? And how can I tell this in a way that would resonate? Like, and most of the time it's usually like relatability. So can people see themselves doing this, having this experience, having these thoughts? If it's unique, I did a write-up on fly fishing with the Amish. So back in Northern Michigan, my dad is retired. And so he has volunteered, or I guess he gets paid to drive some of the Amish families around. And so, you know, he's built a good relationship with them. And so the kids will come over and fish in their pond, same pond that I fished when I was growing up. And there were a couple of times when I was visiting back home. And so the kids would all come over and there's like, you know, a dozen Amish kids out there. They've got their spin rods and they're out fishing. And so I thought, you know what, this not a lot of people get to have this type of experience. So I feel like other people would appreciate this. And so, you know, that was something that I just kind of wrote down and it just kind of came to me. Other pieces are just, you know, again, a rumination of thoughts and, you know, I'll write some things down. I'll go back to it. I'll edit it. I'll go back again. And then sometimes it just comes at you. But I would say before you ever submitted anything to somebody, spend some time to go through it and then edit it again. Like, give yourself permission to redo things, go back, and then, as I mentioned before, give it to a friend who will give you honest feedback. If they're like, well, I don't understand this. Like, what are you talking about? Or this didn't make sense, or this ending doesn't make sense. And, you know, they're not afraid to hurt your feelings.
Katie
Sure. The last three things I wanted to ask about were all things that you mentioned ahead of time. And I don't think they really fit anywhere. They're all kind of just like separate topics but I found them all interesting what is like fly fishing for people who are really hyper focused and how it can be kind of a good or a bad thing for people like that I don't know if I don't know if that's you that you're talking about or yeah I think you want to just some friend that you're like I just want to dish about this I gotta vent about this
Erin
no it's it's funny I'm trying to remember the guest you had on recently where he fished every day for a year.
Katie
Oh, Steve Veals.
Erin
Yeah. Yes. And, you know, he touched on that topic of, you know, having a supportive spouse. And usually the joke is that, you know, the guy goes out fishing and, you know, they got to tell their wife like, oh, I'm doing this or giving excuses. Like it's always the guy that's out doing it. Well, I'm the one that's out there doing it all the time. My husband always jokes that I'm, you know, first one on, last one off. And, you know, as I kind of mentioned about like the flyathlon and like running and all that stuff. I'm the type of person who is, you know, goal oriented. If there's something that I enjoy doing, I will just do it forever. And I am just very hyper-focused. And as I've learned in my family, that tends to be a sign of ADHD where you have that like very hyper-focused behavior. My mom always said when I was little, you know, if I've got a goal in mind, then I'm just, I'm locked in and I'm doing it. And fly fishing. So like if you're a very hyper focused person, like you will go out there and you will be out there for hours on end, you will just be in the zone and you'll be doing your thing, which is great. But at the same time, as I'm sure a lot of people know, if they have this type of behavior, there is a point where you have to be like, okay, I've been out here for several hours, I need to go back, you know, to the people that are hanging out at camp or, you know, being people. So I think there's both like a good thing. There's an escapism to it, but then it's also like something that is easy to get just like totally involved in. And then you're just like kind of checked out for a bit. So that's something that I've realized and that I've been like working on myself. And, you know, that's not just fly fishing. It's, you know, writing or reading or video editing. And, you know, those hyper, hyper-focused people, once they get doing something, they're like on it.
Katie
I would argue that there's way worse things you could focus way too much on than fishing. But I, I've definitely been that person where we're like trying to go hiking or trying to go camping and I'm like, Oh, but there's a stream right here. Like we need to stop. And it's like, no one else wants to stop, but like, I can't stop looking at it kind of thing. And I'm like, I'm probably being super annoying right now, but like, we must stop. So I feel, I feel you there.
Erin
Yep. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because my friend Elizabeth, who, you know, is my hiking who, you know, we hike, we fish, like she's one of those people, she can go out there and, you know, fish for hours on end too. But, you know, she'll go back, she'll take a little break, she'll do her thing. And I actually, a couple years ago, I fished with somebody who, you know, we're out in the water, and we're just catching fish after fish after fish. And it got to the point where I was like, okay, I think I'm done. And he was still out there catching fish after fish. And I'm like, maybe I'm not so bad. Maybe I'm all right. Yeah. Yeah. There are definitely worse things.
Katie
I've definitely gotten better at it over the years. And I don't know if it's something that has changed with age or if it's something I've like actively tried to work on a little bit. But I have gotten more comfortable with like, hey, I've caught a couple fish. Like I can sit down and relax and like watch my friend fish for a little bit. And I don't have that same need. Like it comes back, you know, eventually I'll get jealous and be like, okay, I want to get back out there. But I've gotten a little more comfortable with not having to be doing it all the time when I'm out there. And I don't know if that's something that you've experienced or if you're still just as hyper-focused on it as you've always been. Again, I don't know if that's an age thing or just having done it so much. But part of it for me, I feel like, is almost like if I've caught 10 brook trout in the same little pond, I don't necessarily know what I'm getting by catching one more. I almost like the novelty more. if I see a new body of water I've never fished before and I'm seeing rises, I almost think it's less about like I want to catch fish and more like I want to see what's in there. Like I'm curious about the exploration. And once I realize it's all five to seven inch brook trout, after like a couple of those, I start to lose a little interest because I'm like, I've solved this puzzle. It's almost like the puzzle for me more than anything else. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or a similar experience.
Erin
I completely relate to that. And I think that's why after so many fish, I was like, all right, this is, you know, I get it. I think it's the whole, it's kind of like, you know, pulling the arm on a slot machine where you're like, okay, maybe this time, maybe this time. And when you're, you know, hitting jackpot every time, it's like, all right, well, we get it. But it's that whole idea of like, maybe I'll get something this time or what is this going to be? It's that whole mystery that you're talking about.
Katie
Absolutely. Absolutely. So like, I feel like a bigger river with more species in it, I can last a lot longer because I'm like, it could be anything. It could be any size. It could be any species. Like, who knows? And I'm not catching a lot. So like any fish is super exciting. Whereas like if I'm on my 20th fish of the same species of the same size in a row, like you're right. It's kind of like I've gotten the jackpot like every cast. So like, I bet I know it's going to happen on the next one too.
Erin
And I think it evolves too, the longer you fish, it started out like, I just hope I catch a fish. And then it's like, well, I hope I catch a bigger fish. And now it's like, sure, it's fun to catch bigger fish, but I think it's also like the different type of fish you can catch or, you know, kind of limiting yourself where you're only fishing a certain type of water or, you know, it's the challenge. I think that's the whole part of it. Right. I'm going to use a dry fly or whatever. Yep. Exactly.
Katie
I also wanted to ask you, this is just like kind of based on that topic you brought up, like hyper-focusing on fishing, like versus other things. Like, I don't know if, like you talked about fishing for hyper-focused people, but I'm also curious if you think there's a difference between kind of like people who approach fishing in a hyper-focused way and whether that's like healthier or less healthy than kind of spreading yourself wider. Like, do you think it's fun or good to really dive deep on a topic and really immerse yourself in that one topic? Or do you think that like people would benefit from maybe enjoying fishing, but also, you know, trying other new things once they've gotten really into fishing and kind of figured out the puzzle, if you will?
Erin
um I think it really just depends on the person okay as you were saying that I think of this Ron Swanson quote from Parks and Recreation saying you know don't don't half-ass many things whole-ass one thing yeah and I tend to be a person that I you know I love fly fishing but then there's so many other things that I love to do I love to edit film you know create just random videos I like to write I like to run I like to camp I like to do all these things So, I think having diversity of experiences is good for me. It might be good for others that they decide that they are going to focus on something and they want to get either really good at it or have like, you know, more diverse experience within that topic, whatever it might be. It really just depends on the person. I think as long as you're having healthy expectations and boundaries around that, you're not affecting your relationships, you are not totally consumed. And I don't know what consumed means. Like you said, there are worse things that can occupy your time. But I would say like, as long as you're not, you know, sacrificing friendships, relationships, missing other moments, just so you could do that one thing, like go out and fish. Like what else are you missing type of a thing?
Katie
Yeah, I think that's a balanced approach, even if it is in a hyper-focused way. Like a not balanced, but balanced approach. Last thing I wanted to ask about that also doesn't fit anywhere, but it was too interesting not to ask you about it, is getting stuck on Christmas Island during a cyclone. Like, we don't need to go, like, super deep, but I am curious, like, what, because I've been on a similar trip where it's like there's one boat in, one boat out once a week. And, you know, you're planning your life around getting back out. So that didn't happen to you. And I'd like to hear how that turned out.
Erin
Yeah. So in 2018, I went with a group hosted by Emerald Water Anglers out of Seattle. And Carly, Berlin, was our host. And as far as we knew, we were the first all-female guided trip to the island, which is fun. But it was just more fun to go with just a group of women. You know, as fly fishing gets more popular, there's more of us. We're all out doing it. And so just being able to do it with a bunch of friends that you've been hanging out with or you haven't even really met before. You're catching all these fish that you've never caught before. You have no idea what's on the other end of your line sometimes. You were just talking about this whole, you know, idea of like, whoa, what's out there? I need to try to solve this puzzle type of a thing. And that's exactly what Christmas Island was. It was, you know, we were usually two people to a guide and the guy would be working with one of us and, you know, you catch something and you pull it up and you're like, what is this? Can I touch it? But yeah, then we had, we were there for a week and then there was a cyclone that came through Fiji and it actually interrupted the flight that was supposed to come and pick us up. Typically when that happens, the airline says, okay, we'll come in a couple days, we'll come pick you up. But for some reason they were like, we're not coming for another week, you're going to be on this island. And so that's fine when you're an angler and you're, you know, out there fishing, but when you're also a human being and you have jobs and families and obligations, you know, it's a little stressful. but for the most part most of us just extended our week and we got to go out and fish some more and you know our goal kind of changed or my goal changed from you know I'm going to try to catch like a bunch of bonefish and all these different species to then the goal was like I'm going to try to catch a trigger fish I'm going to focus on this fish that is just so difficult to catch I never caught a you know a peach face trigger I caught a little tiny I think it was a painted trigger is what they're called but you know just being able to kind of have a specific goal after you've experienced a fishery for a week is just amazing not great on the budget
Katie
I was gonna ask because that that came to mind it's like okay you're stuck there for another week you're obviously gonna fish what like are you paying for another week of christmas island fishing which is obviously not cheap. How do they work that out?
Erin
I mean you're stuck there. yeah we did get a discount on the lodging which was great because obviously we have nowhere else to stay it is a remote island yeah resources are very limited so we got a discount on on the lodging fishing was still the same so if you really wanted to go out and you could choose your days so if you wanted to go out some of the ladies like you know just went out a couple extra days I fished as much as I could you know obviously had to budget for it afterward but yeah the lodging I think was the the key component.
Katie
So could you have done, I don't know how Christmas Island works, but like, could you have done some DIY stuff or is it pretty, like you're pretty reliant on the guide and a boat to get around to places? Like, could you have opted not to pay for a guide and still gone fishing?
Erin
I think so. When you're a first time visitor, definitely getting a guide is super key. I think on the second day, I think we could have gone out on our own to just kind of wander and you just don't have access to the flats that you do with a guide. The way Christmas works is they have beaches around the mainland, but then you're really just taking these flats boats out to these different atolls and they are, you know, in the middle of this ocean. So your fishing on the land on the mainland is a little limited. You could if you wanted to, but the guides are just amazing.
Katie
Cool. Well, Erin, just to wrap up, where can people find you if they want to check out any of your writing or anything you have online? Basically your minute to plug whatever you want.
Erin
Sure. Yeah. So my personal Instagram is just ink underscore and underscore fly line, one word. And then my husband and I, we have a little side gig for photography, writing and video editing, which is just Sightline Studio. So if you go to sightlinesstudio.com, that's where you're going to find us.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Erin, thank you for doing this. It's fun to meet another flyathlon person, even though I don't think we've officially met in that capacity, but maybe one day in the future we will cross paths in person. It was just great to meet you, and I appreciate you taking the time for this. Yeah, it was great chatting with you. All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me, and you can also find me on Instagram at Fish Untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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