Ep 161: Native Fish, Setting Goals, and Filming Fishing Trips, with Payton Skidmore
Payton Skidmore is a native fish enthusiast, Utah Cutt Slam holder, Western Native Trout Challenge participant, and the creator of the Skiddy Fishing Youtube channel. In this episode, we talk about tenkara, filming fishing trips, what’s special about native fish, his yearly list of goals, catching suckers and whitefish, and where he stands in the WNTC and Utah Cutt Slam.
Facebook: /payton.skidmore/
Instagram: @skiddyfishing
Youtube: link @skiddyfishing
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 161 with Peyton Skidmore on native fish, setting goals, and filming fishing trips. Alright, well I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing. So, give me your back story. How did you get introduced to the outdoors?
Payton
Yeah, definitely. So my father actually was the original fisherman of our family and I kind of grew up on a bay liner at Flaming Gorge Reservoir, fishing for kokanee salmon, mostly kokanee salmon I would say, but we would go on these hiatuses off and on throughout my life where I was basically a newborn baby on the boat and then I would go like five, six years without any outdoor experience and then all of a sudden we'd be back on the water for a whole year. And then we go on another multi-year hiatus. And then I think fishing really picked up for me when I was a teenager. We would just go up to some local, I guess by my standards today, they're not really high elevation reservoirs, but probably in the 6,000 to 7,000 feet. And we'd be throwing power bait and stuff like that. And I think that's when I really learned that I enjoyed fishing. My poor father probably had to do more line management for me than anything else. And I'm notoriously ADHD, so bless him. But we, we would go on another hiatus. And I remember at some point, uh, during the pandemic, uh, like everyone else, I was just so fed up with being inside and I needed that kind of fix, you know? And I, I remember going to Walmart and I bought a conventional ugly stick spinning rod, and I went to my local pond and, uh, just started kind of throwing just the, the whole traditional bait thing. And I think I did that every single weekend for like half a year. And then finally I was just like, there's got to be more than this. Like, who knows how many trout were probably not properly released during that time, but it became more, well, now I want to throw a spinner in the water. And now I want to throw a jerk bait in the water. And then suddenly it became more species oriented. And I wanted to get something beyond a rainbow trout because I was ignorant to the idea that there's so many different trouts and char out there. And I want to say right around maybe 2021, I was introduced to the Utah cutthroat slam. And that's when it dawned on me that all of these native fish through all the research are in these, these creeks, you know, I mean, everybody in Utah so used to the Provo River or the Weber River in the Weber does have cutthroat in it, but not at the magnitude of, let's say the native ranges. And as I became kind of accustomed to that, I had to really downsize my, my arsenal to really properly catch these fish. And I remember I was fishing this Creek one day up, uh, this canyon near Salt Lake City, and, uh, I had a spinning rod with me, uh, but I tied a fly at the end of it. And I was just letting the line kind of loose and I let it drift downstream. And I caught my first Bonneville cutthroat trout ever in that year. And I remember like literally jumping with joy and being like, I'm a fly fisherman now, like totally just still ignorant, but kind of like, I think that's really where it kind of started. And then I got really immersed into cutthroat research and how I was going to finish this, this cutthroat slam. And, uh, I was like, I have a feeling I'm going to have to learn how to fly fish. It's funny how we, we feel like we have to progress into that, but. you know, long story short, you kind of come out, let's say, you're like, why did I overthink that? Why was that so hard to get into? And, but I had a friend that I worked with who he had a father come out from Pennsylvania to visit him. And he wanted to hit the same creek that I did. So I gave him some tips and stuff. But his father, he bought a tenkara rod and they were, it was super portable and packable. I guess that was the whole concept of getting from Pennsylvania to Utah with, you know, minimal onboarding, uh, pack abilities or whatever. But, and my, they caught like so many fish in that same Creek and I only caught one on that spinning rod. And I remember he was like, dude, you have to get into this. Like, like you can borrow my rod, like whatever, whatever you need to do. And I think that's kind of where it started. I actually picked up Western fly fishing and tenkara simultaneously. And ultimately, uh, I think I've progressed into both of them since now it's like, I've got six Western fly rods and I'm sitting on probably 26 tenkara rods now. But, but there was this one, there was this one moment where, uh, we were in, uh, kind of central Utah and I had caught this Colorado river cutthroat. It was kind of my first real tenkara catch. And that's when I knew I wanted to do the whole cutthroat slam specifically on that style of fishing and that style of rod. And I did it that year. I was super committed to all of it. I drove all the way from Northern Utah to Central Utah to complete that. And I think that's just, that was kind of the epitome of, you know, fly fishing is life, and I think that's really where I wanted to go from there. YouTube kind of coordinated in the middle of that. Uh, I'd say my channel started off as conventional fishing, but then it kind progressively went into fly fishing as a standard as well.
Katie
Do you still spin fish as well as fly fish or are you pretty committed to western rods and tenkara but all on the fly at this point?
Payton
Sure. I haven't picked up a spinning rod in over a year now and the last time I picked it up was for carp fishing. It kind of became lesser about trout fishing and more in those dog days of summer when it was catfish, white bass, and now it's like if I'm not picking up a fly rod I'm really not interested. downsized my whole spinning arsenal. I've given stuff away for free to numerous people and I'd say I'd probably 95% western fly-fishing at this point compared.
Katie
What's the logic behind 20+ tenkara rods? I understand that like sometimes it's just fun to have a lot of gear but how does one get to that to that level?
Payton
Well YouTube is definitely the part of that. I've been collaborating with a lot of the brands out there because tenkara is a very small community and I would say it's mostly e-commerce. So it's hard to walk into a brick and mortar fly shop like Flyfish Food and talk about tenkara. And probably a conversation for a later part is not everybody welcomes Tenkara either. So you really kind of have to limit yourself where in that community you can talk to people. And I'd say that YouTube's definitely expanding on that. But it became more the company would send me a tenkara rod and for making a video with it, they would let me keep it. And that just kind of progressed from there. And I've worked with all of the major tenkara businesses out there. And it did come to a point where I had so many rods that I would actually start downsizing and selling them. And I would use those funds to purchase other gear, including Western Fly Rods. And then the addiction kind of comes back again, and you end up stockpiling them and stuff. But I think really the real logic behind it is the average, let's say fixed line enthusiast probably doesn't need more than two or three rods. Think of it like you want a four weight and a six weight. Your six weight might be your streamers and your four weight might be your creeks or something. Tenkara can be very, very applicable to that as well.
Katie
You mentioned it a little bit, but tell me more about your experience, like not having a, you know, Western fly anglers welcoming tenkara folks. Like I don't, I don't really understand why anyone cares what someone else is using. In that context, I understand there might be fly anglers out there who look at people casting power bait and they're saying it's hurting the fish. But tenkara is just as friendly as you can get to a trout as a conventional fly rod. Why the hate and what kind of experiences have you had with that?
Payton
I'll do my best to articulate this and this is just really my own thesis on the matter, but I think it comes down to the time spent learning the art. Fly fishing is an art and I know so many people that sometimes just enjoy casting more than actually going on the adventure. And you learn, you spend so much time learning how to cast and learning how to read the river, properly catching the fish, you know, and then the money that goes into that as well. I mean, the average fly rod these days, if you want to really peak fly rod, you're probably, you know, $500 to a grand. Nevermind we haven't even talked about the reel and the line yet, right? a Tenkara rod could be under $200 and you don't need the reel and the line management. I think it can be kind of offending to people to look at it and be like, "Wow, there's no learning curve to this at all when we had to grind these hours out." I find it kind of funny at the same time because tenkara is a Japanese phenomenon by nature, At least that's what we link it to. I feel like when people look at a picture of a native Japanese guy holding a fixed line rod catching a fish, they're like, "That is so cool." But when they see the average 2025 middle-class white dude doing it, it's kind of like, "Really? You don't even have the right to do that?" I think that's one thing. But what's kind of ironic about it is I do think that it's the older generation that comes to appreciate it the most. I've worked with a local company called Wasatch Tenkara Rods and we would go to these expos and I would help them sell their rods. I was kind of the YouTube guy of their channel and they would bring me in kind of for, not really publicity, I'm not like a known figure by any means, but local people sometimes would recognize me. It was so often that I would have a tin card out of my hand and I'd be like, "Hey, have you ever held one of these before?" It would start with the older gentleman being like, "Oh no, I've been fly fishing for 40 plus years. I don't need that." Then they would do a whole loop around the expo and they'd come back and they'd be like, "Actually, yeah, I do want to hold that." As they hold it, they're like, "Wow, this thing's under two ounces and you can do this with that and you can do that." the way that I kind of discuss it is, imagine walking in a high mountain lake and there's another lake, let's say a mile away from you, and you want to go hike to that lake. Well, if there's a creek that feeds in between those two systems, it only takes you 60 seconds to set up this rod, catch a few creek trout, and then just put it away. And then you can go commit to what you really appreciate, which is your Western rod on the still water or the bigger ends of the waters and stuff. And I've learned that a lot of older people do come to appreciate it, but I think it's a pride thing really ultimately if you wanted to simplify it.
Katie
Yeah that's that's kind of my opinion on tenkara. I mean I'll be the first to admit I prefer a Western rod because I like casting, I like managing the line, but I have a tenkara rod because I'm like well if I'm ever going to do something that where the primary activity is not fishing, if I'm ever gonna be going on like a big loop hike with a bunch of people who don't fish, then it's gonna be a lot easier for me to convince them to stop for five minutes for me to take a couple casts with this than it is for me to be like okay now we're gonna sit down I'm gonna pull all this stuff out I've got a rig up and so it's like it serves a purpose I feel like even for people
Payton
sure
Katie
you know there's people who just like the act of tenkara and then there's also a group of us who prefer Western rods but like there's still a there's still a niche that that can fill that again I just don't get the you know taking offense to it like have you gotten comments from people like negative comments about it
Payton
You know not as much these days I think when I started I did a little bit more there's I'm pretty active on Facebook that's kind of how I I market a lot of my online content is through, you know, group pages of, you know, common interest, right? So there's one page called the Utah Fly Fishing Group, and anybody that's on there knows how toxic that group can be sometimes. And so, you know, if I post a video on confidence and they realize it's a Tenkara video, you know, I might get a few trolly comments on that, but I just learned to tune it out because really putting my face on YouTube anyway is gonna, is gonna welcome that kind of demeanor and attitude. You can't really dodge it entirely online anyway. But I think the thing that cracks me up the most is I'll say Tenkara and they always respond with "you mean cane pole" and it's almost like that's meant to be an insult and I'm like well yeah it is a cane pole it's just it's a glorified cane pole that's all it is that's like that's like being like saying that the sky is blue it's like that's a good observation but is that meant to be an insult I don't genuinely I genuinely don't understand that one but really the difference between the average cane pole Tenkara rod is telescopic, it's got the carbon fiber blanks, where I think a cane pole is a little bit more, you know, one, two piece stick. It's a robust action, and I really think it's better for crappie fishing and bluegills and ponds and baits, so to speak. I actually blame Huge Fly Fisherman on YouTube for that one too. He gripes a lot on tenkara.
Katie
Oh, does he?
Payton
He gripes on everything too, though. I think that's just his thing, and I respect that, so.
Katie
Yeah, I wanna get around to the actual fishing, but I do wanna touch briefly on, you know, like, I guess just online fly fishing content in general.
Payton
Sure.
Katie
And kind of what you've experienced from that, 'cause I feel like I've seen the best of people online, like really lifting each other up, you know, someone sharing their first fish picture, and people telling them how awesome it is, they're getting into it, and then I've seen the worst of the worst online, where it's like, I don't know why anyone would wanna join this community, because it just seems like a toxic pile of hot garbage. So what have you experienced getting into the online content world? Are you ever discouraged by what you're seeing on there? Or are you able to push through it?
Payton
Well, I'm a retail manager, so people-pleasing is in my nature. And it does break my heart when people are upset with content that I publish. I'd say that the two things that people generally would gripe on is number one, it's going to be fish handling, right? If you don't release a fish properly, you are going to hear about it at some point. but everybody has a different definition on proper fish handling etiquette. I've met people who believe that just simply touching the fish is no good. Like it's lethal to the trout 100%. But then there's like obviously the realm of keeping your hands wet, mitigating, keeping it out of the water, especially in the hot days of summer, and you know, using barbless flies. I mean like if you were to talk to 100 people about the definition of catch and release, you're gonna get 100 different answers. And I think it was really selling myself of what I feel like I'm okay with, right? Like, you know, obviously it's important to see that fish swim away. It's important not to take 100 pictures of each fish, but it was a progression of that too. People would ridicule me because I would show that stuff on my channel, and then I kind of grew into being like, okay, well, if I'm going to be a public figure, like, I'm working for these people, and it's important to, you know, match what their wants and their needs are as well, and I feel like I became a better person as a result of that, But also not everybody's a teacher as well, right? There's a difference between like a positive reinforcement comment of, "Hey, this is probably not in your best interest," versus, I don't know, just somebody who just wants to gripe to gripe and stuff. And I'd say that the other thing that people would generally comment on is hotspotting. And the definition of hotspotting is completely different as well. If I say, "Hey, I'm here," that's hotspotting. But just showing a video of it sometimes warrants the hot spotting effect as well, right? I mean maybe you know where that video is, but if I'm keeping this, like for example I just did a video for the Western Native Trout Challenge for the Colorado River Cutthroat, and if you're local in Utah there's a decent chance you know where this lake is, but if you're from California and you're looking for inspiration to come to Utah to catch the Colorado River Cutthroat, there's no way you're gonna know where I'm at in this video. Like there's no way. And so I area I'm at. I might say I'm in a general area like let's say the Wind River area of Wyoming or the Snake River. Obviously, that's a very big geographical area. Then there's places like the Provo River. It is what it is. It's no secret. Everybody and their dog is going to fish there. Tailwaters can take the pressure versus small creeks. That's probably a little bit more of what I had to get accustomed to is learning where the boundaries were, people are and I think I've been doing YouTube for probably four years now and I think I've progressed almost from zero to a hundred within that four year time because before that I probably would have been that guy that made those mistakes.
Katie
It's interesting that you're getting flack for sharing locations for things like the Western Native Trout Challenge and like slams where you are required to follow online maps provided by these organizations and states. Also, I don't know, if I want to go catch a Colorado River cutt, I've got a list of places I can go. If you're saying you're doing that, it's only a matter of time before somebody just narrows it down to one of the handful of places that is listed publicly online by the state.
Payton
And the state's hotspot, too. They'll tell you exactly where to go. I know there's a handful of places they don't say because they want to respect certain pressure effects, but if you're going to the Raft River Mountains to catch the Utah Yellowstone, there's four creeks out there. it is what it is and if you see another angler out there you know exactly what they're out there for and that you have to get that fish to complete the cutthroat slam so it has a reputation for being the tricky fish to catch and you you kind of have to hot spot that area in order to do it and I think it's just perspective it like obviously you have to kind of look within the the geographical area of that area and you know kind of the effect that you can put on it or obviously when I'm working on the Western Native Trout Challenge and I'm in let's say native Gila trout areas or if they finally let the Paiute cutthroat into it, like that's a little bit different because obviously the ranges of native fish are extremely minimal there. Where Utah has 212 plus populations of native Bonnevilles now so it's like you know obviously there's some fish require more, I don't know, a little more. delicate approach to...
Katie
Yes. And I should clarify I'm not I am not pro hot spotting I I prefer to keep things kind of under wraps but it's just it's just funny in that specific instance with like the challenges where you know those those locations are are provided by the states and yeah I mean Colorado has a fishing atlas online that you're right they don't they don't share everything I fish lakes that are not included in their atlas and I've caught fish but you know for the most part it's you know things aren't a secret I feel like what gets people is when they see a beautiful landscape and suddenly they're like I want to go to that specific lake and take that exact picture which is kind of a problem across the internet anyway with like influencers showing up at a place and ruining it by taking a picture now everyone wants that picture. But for the slams in particular I'm just like I don't really consider that hot spotting as much if you're making it clear that you're going through the slam that is kind of an organized event. One other question I had about kind of a YouTube content because this is the only online content I really make audio wise and I only make it when I'm not fishing which is which kind of leads to my question Which is when you're out there, do you find the the creation of content to be distracting at times? Does it like does it enhance your experience? Does it take away from your experience? Do you find yourself ever wishing? I just want to put this camera down and fish like what is that like?
Payton
So if anybody at least at the time this video or this podcast goes public I made a video on my channel called, I think it's like Southern Utah, Tenkara or something like that. I think I released it at the end of March. And we filmed so much content on that creek, I actually ran out of batteries and SD card space and for the first time in years, I literally ended the video with "I think I'm just gonna fish now. Like, we're not done fishing and I don't even have the ability to record if I wanted to." And it was oddly weird. Like, I don't know if I enjoyed it as much because I felt like I was responsible to keep filming that adventure. And I think I have lost a little bit of that organic, um, ability to just appreciate fishing. My wife will sometimes say, you know, I have a client, uh, she does lashes in the home and, you know, after work, why don't you go, you know, fish a local Creek and I'll do that and it's so hard for me not to bring a camera with me every time I do that because it's like it's just the what if factor. What if I did catch that trophy trout in that creek and I wish I had that on camera. And I think I'm just so used to it now that it feels normal and I feel almost naked by not doing it. And that's probably a problem but so far I think I'm okay with it.
Katie
Yeah, that's interesting. It's interesting that you kind of identify it as a problem too like you know it's something you have to balance because I used to do, I used to write blogs for my website too before I switched to just podcasting and I didn't like that feeling because I'd find myself going out and everything that happened I was thinking like could I turn this into a blog and you know sometimes it's fun sometimes to be a kind of a really unique experience that I would think like I bet I can provide a unique perspective on this I bet this is something that not a lot of people have talked about and I've been kind of getting excited to share that and then other times it would be something so mundane and I'd be like oh yeah I could I could write about that I I found myself kind of turned off by how I felt about that just because I felt like I was constantly thinking of like what I could what I could write about later and I you know I've switched to podcasting when now nothing I do is like happening on the river and I like that more but it sounds like you've kind of gotten deep enough that that's that's what fishing is to you now I mean I never got quite to that point before I kind of backed out.
Payton
Yeah I think it's kind of another way for me to kind of elaborate is it's it's my YouTube channel started with my progression you know I I wanted to kind of document my own self-progress and then I learned that people were becoming inspired by the content and I really enjoy being a teacher when I can if I find myself worthy to be that and people all the time they're like well how do I do this so I start making how-to videos and now they're racking up the views and and people are just watching my own progression. Like if I'm filming for the Western Native Trout Challenge, it's because I want to look back on that someday and just enjoy those moments. Because like I said, like we kind of mentioned, it's you lose a little bit of that organic substance of that quick catch and release and that quick picture that may be only be a picture for the grand majority of people because you have to take the picture right just to turn it in and submit the slam. But it's like I want to go back and enjoy that one moment that I've released that Yellowstone cutthroat and I can see that on camera and I can watch it and I don't have to worry about how long did I hold that trout out of the water because I can watch it over and over and over again. Sometimes I think it's my own progress and my own story that I am really trying to document. But then at the same time, it's like if I don't do it, it's not myself that I feel like I'm letting down. It does feel like I'm letting down other people and that's just, it's like this weird gaslighting problem that I created for myself. I don't think anybody's actually upset if I don't do it, you know.
Katie
Yeah, no, I feel you. I mean, there's been times where I'm like, "I really don't want to put out an episode this week. I'm tired and I don't have anything lined up." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I don't want to have a gap." I feel like people are counting on me, even though I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice if it didn't come out.
Payton
I would argue that all content creators probably go through some version of this, though. I think it's kind of inevitable, and I think that's the dark side of being a content creator.
Katie
Moving on to the to the meat and potatoes, the actual fishing. I don't really know where we're gonna go with this because we've got like several different topics to cover and we've kind of been touching on the Western Native Trout Challenge and the Utah Slam so maybe we'll come back to that at the end. But one thing I wanted to ask you about was your your goals for the year because I saw that you do you know like I think it's like ten goals every year and I also do goals but way fewer of them. I was looking through some of yours and you got like a nice variety. It's not just like catch this, catch that, catch this. It's like across the board of like, you know, make more YouTube videos or like camp so many times or catch this new species or explore this new area. So I just want to hear like how you came up with this and how you choose your goals every year.
Payton
Yeah, definitely. So, you know, my wife and I are very goal oriented people. We love to make lists. It's just kind of who we are as people and we like to kind of see those lists become accomplished, but we're also reasonable goalmakers. We don't make goals that are super hard to make or achieve because we want to see ourselves progress into those goals. Before I got into fishing in 2020, I honestly had no idea I was going to say this on the podcast, but I did struggle with a little bit of alcohol abuse, and I think that's when 2020 happened. I needed to get out, and I needed to become a better version of myself, and fishing was huge for that and now I don't I'm not even part of that world anymore but I think it was like the goals were to get me out and to make sure I was actually fulfilling being outside and actually retaining that so you know at first it was well now I want to catch new species so I want to push myself to catch something beyond a rainbow trout and like I mentioned at the beginning the Bonneville cutthroat was the first one and then maybe I wanted to catch my first Arctic grayling and then I wanted to catch a certain fish on a certain type of spinner when I was spin fishing. And camping is something that I got lost from a long time ago. I used to love camping and I did a lot of that when I was a teenager but I've gone 15 plus years now without camping and I've done it so much in the last couple years my wife is like, "Are you ever gonna come home now?" And I get so lost in the outdoors and I love it. But I I have two kids and I have a good job and I have to be home for that and I don't want to get lost in life and forget about what I want to do. And so I make these little achievable, I'm reading it right now as we're talking like discover three new Uinta waters. I've probably fished, man, maybe less than 10 lakes in the Uintas and there's hundreds of lakes up there. Ice fishing new lakes, fishing regions. So sometimes it's like species oriented and then it kind of progressed into fly fishing specific goals and now I think it's just a mixed bag of kind of all of that and maybe originally it was to you know kind of get rid of that kind of substance abuse and now I think it's just more for the thrill of the adventure and the thrill of the hunt.
Katie
Yeah I agree with you and I also enjoy making like checklists and I try not to be somebody who just does things to check off a box like I don't there's some people who are like I I need to do all the whatever. I need to climb all the 14ers in Colorado. And they're just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I feel like in some ways, some of the magic is kind of taken out when you're just trying to check a box. At the same time, I feel like having a list of things you want to do kind of gets you motivated to get out when you otherwise might not think about it. As much as I wish I would just have this desire to run out after work every day and go fishing, I'm often pulled by the fact that our kitchen needs to be cleaned, and dinner needs to be cooked, and I need to get this chore done and that chore done. And it's so easy to fall into those routines where you don't actually remember that you have the option to go do one of these things you wanna do. And I feel like having lists or goals like that really kind of reminds me. Like every time I see it, I'm like, oh yeah, you know, I've been meaning to go do this thing. And hey, it turns out I'm free this weekend. Like, why do I not have that scheduled? So I'm with you that it's like, it's fun to have kind of a list you're working through over time.
Payton
You know, you kind of got me thinking now, and I don't know if this is actually true, but perhaps if I'm filming all of this content and I feel like I have to, maybe that's the organic nature that I need to experience beyond the lens of the camera. 'Cause I'm not going to film myself camping and making fires and stuff in most videos. So maybe it's like I go out and I try to film this content, but making those goals kind of helps give me a little bit of the reality beyond that as well while still being outdoor as well. I don't think I've ever even thought about that until you just started talking about, you know, kind of your perspective of that. And that maybe that's kind of part of what I need to, to keep it real.
Katie
Yeah. What are some of the goals that you've got for this year? And you know, have you achieved any yet so far, this, you know, early in April?
Payton
So, some of them are like multi-step goals. So for example, I want to complete Expert Caster for the Western Native Trout Challenge. And obviously for those that know, it's gonna be six native species of trout states. So right now I am, let's see, I'm two states and three fish so I'm about 50% there and I have a trip to Montana planned hopefully trying to target some ice off for West Slope Cutthroat. If things go well, Lahontan Cutthroat in Nevada in June and then maybe some bull trout in Idaho as early as July. So that's that's a big one for me and that takes a couple trips to kind of you know complete that one but I want to guide my wife on the cutthroat slam and get her onto some fish and really the goal is just one for her so I've got kind of the expectations a little bit lower for that so that one's gonna be pretty easy but I'm just reading through real quick it's been a minute since I've looked at this I think I've got progressions on these goals but I don't have any of them completed yet.
Katie
That's awesome and how have you done in in previous years I I think I saw at least 2024, maybe 2023. I'm not sure how far back I saw you make your list for, but how have they gone?
Payton
I've almost completed every goal every year with the exception of maybe one or two. Last year's goal was to catch my first sucker and I did not accomplish that. What's really cool about these goals and some of the followers on my channel is the willingness of people to come and help you. All the time I'll be like, you know what, I don't think I'm gonna be able to get this goal done and I'll make a kind of a public comment about it on my Instagram, it's almost the end of the year. And I'll get like three different messages that are like, no, I'm not taking no for an answer. Here's where you can catch your first muskie. Here's where you can do this. Like, they reach out and they kind of helped me out. And it's super cool. Like I didn't think that people were actually in tune, you know, as deep as I was in some of those goals. But it's cool when people are like, no, I wanna see you accomplish this. And I tend to be a really overzealous person. So I think people kind of get thrilled with my excitement on really simple things. And I'm really confident I'll get that sucker this year, though I got a couple guys that are like, just come around the spawn, I'll get you on 'em.
Katie
So if you don't complete a goal one year, does it automatically go on your following year's goal list or do you kind of reassess and decide, is that something I still wanna do? And actually think through it again from scratch?
Payton
I think I do roll it over to the next year. There may be a couple that I have tapered off from just because they felt a little unreasonable to me. I actually can't remember what those are right off the bat, but I do think for the most part I'll roll them over because I do feel unfulfilled if I don't do them. I just want to be realistic in completing that goal. And one kind of goal that I haven't really publicly announced on any platform is I do want to catch every reasonable Utah species, whether it's native or non-native. And I'm getting to that point now where I've got all of the main ones in the bag. I think muskie and sucker are probably the two last major ones. And I know suckers can taper into some subspecies as well, but really just, I just want a sucker, whether it's, you know, June or Utah or white. But then there's stuff in the, I think it's the southeastern end of Utah where there's like the razorback sucker and some actual native fish where I do have to get a little bit more subspecies oriented. And I have no idea where I'm going to start with that. So I think as I progress into one new species per year, I'll kind of add one other new species to the mix, just so I'm not like setting the bar too high, but I'm kind of experimenting beyond trout. Trout are like 95%, what really thrills me, but I just wanna just experience as much as I can. I think last year it was pike on the fly and I ended up accomplishing it and I've done it multiple times since.
Katie
And what's the species this year, if you've got one?
Payton
It's still sucker.
Katie
Oh, it's still sucker, okay.
Payton
Yeah, I think I did do sucker and pike last year. I did two species, but this time I just did sucker.
Katie
You gotta focus on it. You said something that I've experienced as well, and I know we were talking about the online, kind of at times toxic fly fishing culture, but I find that the people who are kind of silently observing and don't chime in a lot when it comes to comments and actively talking, they tend to be really, really great people, and I think that's what you're talking about when people suddenly jump out and they're like, oh, I can help you with this, 'cause yeah, same thing, whenever I've needed help ever reached out to my community. It's like I hear from people that I've never heard from before out of the blue, but they're suddenly very, very willing to like offer things up and you know, if you ever need help with this, if you ever need me to show you around in this area and it's like, you know, those people aren't, I assume they don't have time to be like arguing in comment sections online, but they are out there and they are listening and they're typically very good people and very kind and just want to see you do well and you know, kind of want to rise all boats with the tide.
Payton
I'm going to double down on that. I do think the silent majority are all great people. And I always assume the best of people as well. It's so easy to get caught up in the toxicity of the world. And the world is in a very weird place right now, obviously. So everybody's extra unsettled. And it's cool that fishing is a common ground for people to come together. And it's amazing when you just meet new people every day. I'd say half of the people that I fish with on a regular basis, I just met in the last year and a half. And now I kind of hang out with them on a semi-regular basis because they were those people that reached out. It's funny from their perspective because again, I really try to be humble. I'm not a well-known person and sometimes they reach out to me and I reach back and they're like, "This dude's gonna hang out with me? I'm gonna hang out with this YouTuber?" and it's like, "Yeah, I'm just another guy, dude. I'm happy to hang out with you." Then if we have a good chemistry, we'll try to mix it in. I think sometimes they want to be on videos too and they want to see themselves on the camera and show their wives or families or friends and stuff like that. And so it's kind of fun to give people that opportunity and share that with them.
Katie
You've mentioned native fish a couple times and it seems like that's kind of your primary focus. It seems like if you could do one thing forever it would be just kind of catching native fish. Tell me about that. What do you appreciate about native fish? What makes them special?
Payton
Well, up until 2020, I probably would have told you that a rainbow trout and a brook trout were the only two trout you could catch in Utah. And then I learned there were four subspecies of cutthroat, and those four subspecies were here before we were here. And I was fascinated by that. I've become so, so in tune with trout research. Sometimes the research is just as fun as fishing is. You know, I know a lot of people like to get into the intellectual side of it and, you know, read the history and, and stuff. And I think it's, I don't know what I'm doing to contribute to it, honestly, Katie, but it does feel like we have an obligation to help these trout out because people are probably the grand majority of the reason why these trout are even suffering. And I remember being excited about brown trout, and I still love brown trout, they're great. I find them in really cool places and I know they're easily probably the most popular trout to fly fish for. But when I caught my first Bonneville, that just changed me. And it was the smallest fish, it was probably like six or seven inches, that have these beautiful par marks on it and the more I fish creeks and keep in mind I do majority fish tenkara which is probably gonna excel in you know most creeks and headwaters the abundance of fish in these creeks and the patterns that they have and it feels like you almost are in untouched places compared to others right I mean you don't find native fish in the middle of your city you're gonna probably find brown trout in the middle of your city and the more headwaters and away from people, you really do kind of feel like you're in an untouched region of the country. And the more I start looking into the Western Native Trout Challenge and I'm studying various trout, like the West Slope is obviously a big one and the Bull Trout, and the Bull Trout intimidate the heck out of me. And the places where I think I'm going to be going for them, I'm just like, "Wow, what do I need outside of bear spray and wolf spray to make sure I'm going to come out of this place alive?" And I think that That excites me sometimes. Sometimes it's beyond the trout and it is the geographical interest of the area as well. It's like they say, you find trout in the prettiest places and I think that native trout are in the absolute prettiest places.
Katie
I agree. I'll never turn down catching a brown trout because I'll catch anything that'll eat my fly but I just have never been that much on the hype train with brown trout that some people are. I know they get big, they get really aggressive, so I understand the fun of that, but some people I feel like just really, really fawn over brown trout in a way that I'm just like, I don't know, they're kind of on the lower end of my list. I guess the one thing I appreciate about brown trout over something like brook trout is it feels like they displace fewer cutthroats, at least around where I am. Brook trout go up into these upper headwater streams and alpine lakes, which I know mostly didn't contain cutthroats back in the day, but they do now, and that's where the cutthroats are actually doing well and you know they easily get taken over by brook trout. So the brown trout seem to kind of separate from the cutthroat so I appreciate that about them, but like as a fish itself I just feel like you know it's not really even supposed to be on this continent so I just don't care that much. But I'm with you. I saw on your YouTube that you have a video that has a mountain whitefish on the front and that's why I was like yes this is what I want. Like I love a whitefish.
Payton
Whitefish are so underrated.
Katie
They are.
Payton
They so are. And I don't understand the hate that people get from them and it's always when they're brown trout fishing is when they're upset they caught a whitefish. Isn't that weird?
Katie
Yeah, explain to people the magic of whitefish because you don't have to convince me, I love them, but for people out there who are like, "Why would I want to catch a whitefish?" Tell them what they're missing by not going after them.
Payton
Whitefish are like the smallmouth bass of the trout family world. For inch for inch, they are the absolute best fighters and they get big and they also resemble the healthiest streams. That's probably what most people will tell you the first thing about them, right? If you find a mountain whitefish you are in a healthy stream and when the stream becomes unhealthy the whitefish either move or they're gonna you know disband and they're no longer there and I think that's important you know I mean obviously they're native as well and that's obviously a huge perk based on what we've talked about but it's just like I don't know I think whitefish were really fascinating to me because as I progressed into fly fishing obviously I could use a spinner and some bait for trout in various places and catching trout was not an irregular phenomenon for me. And when I finally wanted my first mountain whitefish, and that was an Instagram goal at one point, that was such a hard fish for me to catch because I needed to throw the tiniest things for them and I had no idea how to get to the bottom quick enough in some of these deep, you know, river pockets and stuff. And then finally I went to Yellowstone with my uncle and he gets the credit for teaching me how to Western fly fish specifically and we were fishing the Madison and I remember he caught a couple really good brown trout and I caught my first mountain whitefish. It was probably 16 inches which is pretty decent for that you know that species and I was so thrilled. I don't think I caught more than two fish that entire trip and I went home just on cloud nine that I had caught a brand new species. It was a native species and it gave me a fight where I think I was sweating bullets to the point where I didn't even enjoy it at all until I finally landed it and I finally took that deep breath through my fist in the air and you know and just gratitude and I just I don't know I I do know that a lot of people that that like to fish for brown trout specifically you know they'll they'll kind of beat the skunk with whitefish oftentimes like maybe that's not what they were going for but maybe that's the make it or break it between you caught something and you didn't is you caught a mountain whitefish and I know some people appreciate them for that but inch for inch they're honestly probably better than brown trouts of equal size and I think that they're often misidentified too. You think you know what's on the line you see the white body come up and they're like oh it's a whitefish.
Katie
I was just about to say the number of times I've heard someone say like oh I bet it's a big brown and then it's like a 15 inch whitefish and I'm like
Payton
yeah
Katie
I mean that that's more exciting to me but yeah the fact that people often mistake it for a 20 plus inch brown and then it's not. I also love that they're kind of invisible in the water. There's obviously something to be said about the excitement of sight fishing for something. But I love that when a whitefish takes it, you don't really know what it is until it gets up right next to you. You might know it's a whitefish if it took something down deep and it's staying down deep. But you don't get that peek at it. You kind of have to wait until it comes in. And I love that. I love not knowing what's on the end. So I
Payton
Yeah. And they'll run on you too. So when you think you're getting close to them, they'll kind of run and you're like, "Oh, the fight's still on." And that could be minutes before you even know what's on it. Fun fact, I did start a Mountain Whitefish fan group on Facebook because that concept didn't exist. I mean, if you go on YouTube and you type in cutthroat trout or smallmouth bass, you're going to find a group for every single species of fish on Facebook. But Mountain Whitefish did not have one and I started that.
Katie
And how many members have you gotten?
Payton
Less than 200 right now, but everybody that's joined it is like, "I'm so glad I found this So for people if you want to find people that really do enjoy Mountain Whitefish go follow that group because You'll be in a community of people that really do appreciate it
Katie
I feel like that's a really good like filter of people like I would assume that I would get along with every single person in That group because I feel like sure in in joining that group You're saying a lot of things about yourself like you probably appreciate native species You probably don't get caught up in the hype of like I just want to catch brown trout to show off to my friends There's just like there's I think there's a couple things like that in the world where you know once you learn that about somebody that we get along. And I feel like enjoying Mountain Whitefish and joining a fan club for them is one of those things.
Payton
Yeah, I know, it's like such a random thing, but you know, and I did it in confidence, and then when people started coming in and appreciating it, I was like, all right, I made the right decision here.
Katie
I don't wanna give too much away and then have people steal my idea, but I use Mountain Whitefish as my username on a lot of things when I need to create a username online. Mountain Whitefish typically isn't taken, so I get to grab that.
Payton
I love that. That's super awesome, I love that.
Katie
What other, do you have any other like native sleeper species that you really like that you don't feel like get kind of the attention that they deserve? I know a lot of them are like subspecies of cutthroats but you know is there anything else kind of like the white fish that reminds you that that you wish kind of got a little bit more attention and appreciation?
Payton
I think sucker for sure and Utah has a couple different species of sucker I know we've got white sucker we've got Utah sucker the June sucker is kind of a big one it's endemic to Utah Lake specifically and it was was critically endangered at one point and they've actually got it downlisted on that list. I'm not sure where it is today, but you can actually legally fish for them now. You just have to release them and you can only catch them in the tributaries to Utah Lakes. So it's like when you catch that fish, you're not going to catch it anywhere else in the world. There are no June suckers in Colorado. There's none in California. I think that's kind of a cool thing. Obviously there's the Razorback sucker. There's the Green River sucker. I'm sure there's an abundance of different types where you're at too. I think people often associate suckers with carp, but obviously carp were imported from Asia and suckers were always here.
Katie
Yeah, I don't know why suckers. I mean, it's kind of all fish shaped like that. It's suckers, it's white fish. I mean, carp as well, but they are non-native, so I'll give people a pass on disliking those if that's the reason they don't like them. But something about a downturn mouth and big scales, I don't know what it is, but people just don't like it.
Payton
But fly fishing for carp is a growing phenomenon on YouTube these days, but you never see anybody doing sucker on the fly. Nobody is highlighting that specific type of fish. It's so weird. It's almost like, well, if it is kind of like carp, obviously I think getting to them is just a little bit different, right? Because you're going to find them probably in more trouty waters where fly fishing for carp can just be in your community pond, really, if you wanted to go that. So maybe Maybe that's the difference, but I do think they're a sleeper species for sure.
Katie
What techniques does one use for suckers? I assume, you know, getting down low and probably small flies, but that's kind of the extent of what I would guess.
Payton
Yeah, I think you would probably want to mimic a lot of similar things to mountain whitefish. I think a lot of their habits are pretty similar. I do think that they're going to hold more in probably the lower ends of tailwaters near bodies of water if you're going to find them. I'm definitely not a scholar on suckers by any means, so somebody might correct me on that later. The last time I saw a sucker caught, I was in Wyoming with my uncle and we were fishing the Snake River in Teton. My uncle pulled up a sucker and it was the coolest looking thing I'd ever seen. I was so fascinated by it. It had all these cool little specks on it. We were like, "Wow, we have no idea what this is." thought maybe it was a, I think we thought it was like a green river sucker or maybe a variant of it or something. We actually reached out to a biologist and he's like, "Actually, those spots are parasites. That's why it has those." And we're like, "Aw, dang. That kind of sucks." But I was so jealous he caught one on the fly that day. I was like, and we could see them too. They were potted up and I was doing everything I could to get one, but he got one ahead of me.
Katie
Yeah, I've gotten one by accident, like during runoff. I think I was throwing like like a worm or something, a squirmy worm or something, and I got one. But I have seen them in some of the lakes, like the alpine lakes I've gone to, they'll be in the shallows, and they move as a big pod, and they're very small, and I've never been able to intentionally catch one like that. So I'm sure there's a secret, but I am not privy to it.
Payton
I'm also not a size guy, so if it's like an eight inch sucker for my first one, I don't even care at that point.
Katie
Have you ever heard of microfishing?
Payton
I have. I kind of associate it with spin fishing a little bit more, so maybe our definitions are different.
Katie
I'm not sure about spin fishing. What I'm talking about is, I've kind of associated it with little flies, but it's kind of neither one, because I think you're using either just your hand with a line or just a very, very tiny rod, but people fishing for truly micro-sized fish, they're catching things like darters and sculpins and stuff that lives under rocks that you would have to lift up and you'd see, what most people would call minnows, generally, but are actually like a wide variety of little fish. But there's people out there now trying to catch these things on, you know, with a hook, where they're sending down a size, I don't know, probably 30 fly.
Payton
Yeah.
Katie
You have to like do very specific things to get them to come out from underneath the rocks. And it feels like an extremely niche community, but I just wasn't sure if that was something that like would be of interest to you since you like targeting native fish and learning about what's actually in your water.
Payton
So two things maybe. I have noticed that when people study tenkara fishing specifically in Japan, I think Japanese microfishing is very popular with tenkara rods because there's a lot of like dace and chubs in, in native creeks. And I, I think tenkara is a perfect tool for that. And so people all the time, they're, they're posting, you know, these, these cool little tiny dace and they've got the smallest little fly. And I think I, that's where maybe I'm more accustomed to it and from at least a standpoint of study, I've also done a lot of bluegill and green sunfish. It seems like the places where I catch them, they're so overpopulated that they're the size of my thumb. They're not like the big trophies that are the size of your palm. I have two XL hands, you know? But also, there's a lake in Nevada that has cichlids in it or something, like these tropical freshwater aquarium fish. Somebody must have let them go in there and they're running wild, and people are going in there and catching aquarium fish. I think that's kind of where I started. When you said micro fishing, I've seen people throw these little teeny tiny, you know, spin fishing lures in there and they're catching cichlids of all things. And I don't know if I love catching fish that small. I do tend to catch a lot of small fish with Tenkara, but I would say the average trout for me is probably anywhere from six to 12 inches.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like there's a joke in there somewhere about how I go micro fishing, but not intentionally. I just catch a lot of fish that a lot of people would describe as being really small.
Payton
Yeah, right.
Katie
Just to wrap up, I want to hear a little bit about your progress on Western Native Trout Challenge and where you stand in the Utah Cutthroat Slam. I'm sure you've finished that multiple times at this point. What's new with those? How far along are you? Any interesting insights having done what you've done so far?
Payton
Yeah, definitely. I'm working on my fifth Utah Cutthroat Slam right now. The whole reason for doing more than one for me personally is that Utah is unique in the sense that there's only one style of Western Native trout coin, there's only one Wyoming cut slam coin, there's only one New Mexico trout challenge coin, but Utah, I think like around 2020, introduced a limited edition series of coins. So they had the original Utah cutthroat slam coin and then they wanted to celebrate 1,000 completions. So they wanted to do a Colorado River cutthroat edition coin for X amount of completions and I was like well now I got to do the slam again and get this coin so I completed it got that coin they released another series of Yellowstone versions and then they did the Bear River Cutthroat and pretty soon they're about to debut the Bonneville so now you're gonna have five coins four for each subspecies and then one for the original and so it kind of keeps people going back and doing these slams and they only have like 250 coins for each edition so it kind of gives you a little bit of urgency to keep going back and complete them and I'm one fish away from completing my fifth one in fact I'm gonna finish it so quick that I'm gonna have to wait and delay my turn in until the coin comes out so I don't get a second version of a coin I already have but so that that's the incentive of doing five but I knew I was getting to the end of my obsession with the Utah Slam so then I went out and I did the Wyoming one and I did that one last year got my coin there. I would say with the Western Native Trout Challenge, as mentioned, I want a complete expert caster this year. So I have three more fish to go in at least two more states. My itinerary is pretty wild. I mean, on paper, this is without budget even in mind. I do want to go to Montana. I want to go to Idaho, Nevada, and I also want to attempt Gila trout and Apache trout between New Mexico and Arizona. If I can get all of those done, that'll put me two fish into Advanced Caster, the second tier of the program, but I'm hoping that at least that's enough. I mean, who knows? You might get skunked on one of those adventures too, so I'm hoping through all of that I at least complete Expert Caster. So that's kind of the goal so far.
Katie
You just reminded me of something I forgot about with the challenge in the naming of the tiers, where I'm like, I I don't understand how expert comes before advanced.
Payton
(laughs) Yeah, I know, right?
Katie
It just seems so backwards.
Payton
It does seem backwards.
Katie
Do you happen to know if there are plans to reissue the coins again in order, like through Utah for folks who haven't gotten a chance to do it yet, if they hear this and they're like, well, that sounds great, but I've already missed them all.
Payton
Yep, I've talked to Brett Prettyman, the coordinator of the SLAM, and he's done a lot of great work with Trout Unlimited and the Utah DWR, and he actually asked me, I went to the Wasatch Flytying Expo up in Salt Lake this year, and he's actually looking for suggestions. People can openly give suggestions on what they would like to see. And I think the current plan as of right now, and this might change later, is that once they get to 2,000 completions, which will be the last 250 Bonneville coins, I think they just wanna start right back all over again with the Colorado and just go through the whole system all over again. In fact, I think it's gonna be more rare to get the original coin more than the additions. So I think it took about the second coin, the Yellowstone Cutthroat coin, before people started catching on to the whole coin collecting thing. And now people are like, "Crap, I lost my opportunity "and I do wanna go back and do that." And so they're very, very aware of that and they're figuring something out that'll give people that opportunity, no doubt.
Katie
And I'm interested to hear, maybe after you go, I could talk to you again, about your trip down to Arizona. That's been on my radar for a bit. I would really like to go do Gila and Apache. It's like very high on my list. And I don't know how much you know about either of these two species, but after you go, I might wanna pick your brain again.
Payton
Absolutely. I will definitely stay in touch for you. The only thing that makes me nervous is I'm shooting for September to target that. And it's gonna be a little bit codependent on the monsoon season for some proper fishing, specifically in Arizona. A lot of those creeks will run super dry and then I have no idea how these trout survive. I mean, the Apache trout are so resilient and it's wild that they're even still around, especially with forest fires and stuff. And I think the key to success is talking to, you know, your biologists and the wildlife resource management and stuff because those people will absolutely help you out. And, but I think it's gonna be weather pending. I think I'm for sure going, it's just based on whether or not, you know, the rains can kind of keep up. 'Cause I think realistically right now the time to be down there if you're going to do it.
Katie
I was thinking that. I was kind of looking at plane tickets and also trying to decide if it was worth it for me to fly or drive. It's right on the cusp for me, which one makes more sense.
Payton
I'm with you in Utah. I think I'm going to drive, but I'm with you. I thought about it. I was like, "It might be cheaper to rent a car and just fly out of Provo Airport or something." But yeah, I definitely understand where you're going with that. And the Gila trout in New Mexico, because I want to do the native one, right? So I picked New Mexico for that. But streams within three hours of the native Apache areas. But you can also catch gila's in Arizona as well. Just the Arizona Game and Wildlife were very selective on which streams could be contributed to the challenge. So it's very, very meticulous planning on specifically the Western Native Trout Challenge, but obviously you can catch either or in each state.
Katie
Right, yeah, I saw the same thing on their map. It was like there's maybe one, maybe two options for gila's in Arizona that were considered native, but the majority were in like Western New Mexico.
Payton
So yeah, in the creeks that that that that feeds into have more Gila's but they you can't claim them there at least intentionally so it's yeah it's super interesting I think it's all about management and restoration and I think they'll eventually be there but there must be something on the management plans side of that.
Katie
Well Payton just to wrap up where can people find you if they want to you know check out your YouTube channel or any other you know public facing places where can they go?
Payton
Yeah called Skiddy Fishing, S-K-I-D-D-Y, Fishing, and I'm on YouTube, I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Instagram. Typically throughout the course of my filming adventures, you know, I'll take a few pictures of some trout, so those will end up on my Instagram if you want to see more, you know, stills of the fish. Facebook's something I'm experimenting with. It's really, really new for me, but nobody needs to pay for any content that I ever do. It's I just try to keep it kind of unique and as exclusive as I can but I've been blogging I've been experimenting with the blogs a little bit so for people who want to you know read a little bit more on the Western Native Trout Challenge adventures I am documenting those and I'm trying to post those to Facebook so that's where people can find them and the reason why I'm doing that is because right now as I'm studying for various places to go there is some some places there's overwhelming information and there's underwhelming information for other places and I hope I can be a good resource for people for inspiration and also to be able to be like okay, I feel comfortable going into this adventure now and that's kind of something I'm striving to contribute to the, you know, the native trout community and so like I said it's experimental with the blogs but you can find that on Facebook and that's all through the SkiddyFishing alias so and then for anybody else listening as well my content is probably 70% tenkara based but I do western fly fish between two weights and six weights so I do a lot of stuff so.
Katie
So if you don't like tenkara don't come on and hate just just move along. I might check out some of your Western native trout stuff because I think so I also do goals every year not as many as you do But one of mine this year is to get started with it I'm like signed up for it, and I've caught I've caught many of the species, but not Not since I've signed up and not in the waters that are approved So as much as I probably have like five or six of the species under my belt, but not they don't count So I need to go start, you know, going through the challenge officially. So I might be checking out some of your resources for those.
Payton
Absolutely. I'll make you a deal. If you find a good Rio Grande stream in Colorado, there's really only so many on the map that Colorado had to provide them. But if you have a good day down there, I will for sure put you on any fish between pretty much Wyoming, Idaho and Utah. You reach out anytime and I'll help you out.
Katie
That’s awesome, because that is one of the first two I'm going for, for sure. And that's one of the ones that I've caught before, but not in their official waters. So that's, I think the Colorado River and the Rio Grande are gonna be the first two I check off. So I will definitely let you know.
Payton
Well, I wish you the best of luck on that too.
Katie
Thank you. Thank you. And you as well. I'm excited to hear, you know, how your further adventures go. Maybe we can chat again sometime, but thank you again for coming on here. It was great talking to you. I always like talking native fish. So it's great having you on here.
Payton
Yeah. Thank you for your time.
Katie
Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me and you can also find me on instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and if you'd like to leave a review it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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