Ep 156: Hunting Muskies and Swinging for Steelhead, with Rick Kustich
Rick Kustich is the Great Lakes Editor for Swing the Fly and an avid angler of both steelhead and muskies. In this episode, we talk about fishing for both species in New York, including how steelhead in New York compare to the other Great Lakes tributaries, what to do when the muskies aren’t biting, how Rick uses an overhand cast with a two-handed rod, and much more.
Swing the Fly: link
Instagram: @rickkustich
Website: rickkustich.com
-
Intro
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 156 with Rick Kustich on hunting muskies and swinging for steelhead.
Katie
I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing. So I'd love to hear how you got introduced to fly fishing in the first place.
Rick
I think fishing in general was something that I was just destined to do or to be interested in. I grew up on an island, literally on the, it's a true island right in the middle of the upper Niagara River. And pretty much all the male influences in my life were fishermen, not necessarily fly fishermen, but my cousin, uncle, brother, my dad, my grandfather, everybody fished. When I was growing up, it was just kind of at the tail end, but at least with my grandfather and my uncle, and to a degree my dad, it was kind of post-Depression. They were still kind of fishing for subsistence. We'd make meals out of what was caught. It was just something that I certainly was exposed to at a very young age. Even when my dad or uncle or brother wasn't available to take me fishing, my mom would go with me, too. I mean, it was just something that, you know, that, uh, you know, that, that was just kind of born into, which is great. I mean, it was, uh, you know, just a great thing to have when, when I was growing up and, uh, as I got older, some of my friends were fishermen and we had a great time, um, you know, really enjoyed that, uh, when I was, you know, somewhere around 10, 11, 12. I, and I think my first exposure was just like seeing an American sportsman episode on TV with fly fishing. And just the idea of catching a fish on the surface with a small fly was something that really got me. And I just couldn't let that go. I tried to learn everything I could about it. There wasn't many resources back then. But my Bible became the Joe Brooks trout fishing book. And then there were some articles in Field and Stream, Outdoor Life, things like that. But really, I taught at about 12 years old, taught myself how to fly cast. I actually taught myself how to fly cast with an old level fly line, casting it on a spinning rod, actually. And then it really wasn't probably maybe a couple of years later that I actually got a fly rod. So, but I caught my first trout all by myself when I was 12 years old on fly I tied by myself. And really from there, it's just been, you know, just an obsession I've had ever since.
Katie
Were you mostly learning from books then? Is that kind of how you figured it out?
Rick
Yeah, I think, really do think, my recollection is that Joe Brooks' Trout Fishing Book was kind of my Bible. There was just enough in there to really kind of send me in the right direction. Yeah, obviously, very little instructional stuff, even in a video form. Anything that was on TV was more entertainment value than it was instructional, so, yeah. But there were some articles from what I remember. I, you know, like I said, I subscribed to both Outdoor Life and Field and Stream and, you know, both of those. And then eventually, it was a little ways down the road, but eventually in fly fishermen, I think that was more, you know, probably when I was in my teens. But, you know, there was very limited resources. I mean, for those that are starting this sport or have started in the last five, 10 years, and, you know, had this go through, you know, just go through all the YouTube videos and all the content that's out there. It was just a totally different world back when I started, that's for sure.
Katie
I always like asking people who learned via text or photos and without video, what was that like and how did you know when you were doing things right versus wrong? I know we've all kind of experienced when you have a good cast, you can feel it. You kind of know. But before you have that feeling, you're not getting a lot of feedback apart from you cast it out and maybe a fish likes it or not, but how did you handle that? What was it like figuring out whether you were doing things correctly?
Rick
I guess there was just enough instruction in this book, but I think there was a lot more trial and error too, where you would do something that would get the fly to turn over and do what you wanted it to do and just try to replicate that as much as possible. But it was just so crude back then. I said a level line I probably didn't have I'm sure it wasn't a tapered leader I mean it's just how I even cast it is beyond me but it wasn't too much too long after that that you know that I started refining that was using a you know double taper you know line and I think probably a couple years after that had a fly rod so you know and then yeah obviously as the equipment got better It gave me more opportunity. There was also, I guess when I was in my late teens, there was a fly shop that opened up in my Buffalo area here too. So definitely made some friends with some of the people that work there, and that certainly helped quite a bit too. So kind of that firsthand instruction.
Katie
Were you mostly fishing for trout at that time?
Rick
Yes, mostly. Yep, mostly inland trout. I wouldn't say we have great trout fishing in Western New York, but we do have some really pretty little streams that do have wild fish and it was mainly for trout. You know, and then it kind of expanded from there. Probably when I was in my early twenties, which would that would have been in the early eighties, things really started expanding in terms of the species that I, you know, I began to pursue.
Katie
Had you been fishing for trout before that with, you know, before you picked up fly fishing, you were just in a fishing family where, were you going for trout or was that more for like steelhead and stuff like that and then you kind of had to almost backtrack in a way to pick up fly fishing with something that was maybe a little bit more forgiving.
Rick
No, I did. We fished for trout but with bait. My brother-in -law, I probably didn't even mention him, he was another person that helped me along, but he would take me trout fishing to these trout streams. We would fish with salted minnows back in those days, so I probably caught my first trout when I was like seven or eight or something like that. on a cold spring day and we would just, we had this little double hook rig for putting a salted minnow on and we just kind of had it down to a scion. I think spending that kind of time on the streams also helped with my passion for fly fishing because I just knew there was a lot more to it than just catching them on salted minnows. Especially when we'd be out there later in the spring and I'd actually see fish rising taking, I didn't know anything about mayflies then, but taking mayflies off the surface. So I really, I think that really triggered me as well.
Katie
You know, I think going from something like that to fly fishing is not really as big a leap as a lot of people think. You know, there's probably a lot of conventional anglers out there that see fly fishing and they're like, "I don't know if I can handle that." And somebody picking it up fresh, having never done it before, you know, they don't know how to read water. They don't know how to like observe trout behavior, know what they're doing. So seeing how they behave, seeing them rising. I feel like making that leap, it's probably pretty natural because reading water and reading fish is kind of one of the biggest parts of actually being successful. I'm sure you already had many years of that under your belt. To just change the technique, it's probably easier for you to harness all these things you already knew.
Rick
I think that's very true. I even see that in my guiding too, when I have new anglers that have years of experience I'd say some type of spin fishing or gear fishing. And they have the instincts. And like you're saying, reading water and just the know how to get around the stream or get around the boat or whatever, you certainly can adapt to fly fishing much easier than someone who's-- the whole thing is new to them. So there's definitely that, for sure.
Katie
I think that's the kind of stuff, at least in my experience, that is really only gained from time on the water. Like, it's really hard-- You can read a magazine article about five places that trout like to hang out. But until you've done it and seen it and seen all the different variations of these kind of tried and true rules, it just doesn't stick as well. So I feel like there's really no replacement for that other than just time on the water in any capacity.
Rick
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you learn things you don't even know you're learning. And you do things you don't even know you're doing, I think, sometimes. You know, and again, I'll go just to guiding. I mean, there's just certain things that when I'm working with a client, so often I'll just point out this or point out that. And it's just things that they just seem to feel is just such a revelation, you know, like, oh, my God, how do you know that type of thing? And it's like I think to myself, geez, I never even thought it was that big of a deal, something I do, you know, and it's just something that's become ingrained in, you know, how I approach things. So you're right. I mean, there's no question that no substitute for just, you know, being out there and, you know, observing and, you know, trial and error and things of that nature.
Katie
How did you switch from that to, I assume, steelhead came next before muskies. That's just my guess. I feel like muskie always comes last.
Rick
Sure, it did. And so what we have in the Great Lakes, and, you know, there's some, I guess, maybe controversy over whether they're truly a steelhead. me, you know, they are. So in the late 70s, well really probably late 60s, early 70s, the Great Lakes were going through, you know, kind of some tough times. You know, there was a lot of pollution, there was the lakes, a number of the lakes were kind of badly met, out of shape in terms of the level of bait fish versus the predators. You know, pollution, high phosphorus levels were two of the main culprits that kind of created this unbalance. So fisheries managers all across the region were employing different approaches, management techniques to try to get things back in balance. One of the plans was to bring, or one of the things that they did was to bring and transport Pacific salmon and steelhead from the Pacific Northwest and brought them to the Great Lakes region. So steel-- but to back that up a little bit, steelhead had already been transplanted in the Great Lakes since the late 1800s. So about 1875, the first plants came to-- actually, to New York state. And there has been naturalized wild producing steelhead in the Great Lakes ever since then. But then in the early '70s, as the lakes were out of shape, the management approach of bringing in additional stocks of Pacific salmon and steelhead, it really broadened the number of rivers and areas that now had steelhead runs. And that continued into the '80s and '90s and continues today, where there's good natural reproduction on a number of rivers, and there's others that are sustained mainly through stocking programs. So yeah, I was kind of on the leading edge right when I was-- I was like 20 years old, 1980s, early '80s, and the steelhead fishery was just blossoming and just taking off. So I was kind of in the right place at the right time. And that really just caught my eye. And yeah, for about the next 10 years, I mean, that was really almost all I pursued in the spring and the fall and through the wintertime was steelhead. And there was also migratory brown trout coming in off the lakes as well. So I spent a lot of time in those years developing my passion for it, my skills, started guiding towards the end of the 80s there for steelhead. So yeah, I spent a lot of time. And like I said, there's-- and I don't even want to go into that part of it. But certainly, there's some, I guess, debate as to whether those are truly steelhead. There are some that would only go with the definition that a steelhead is only one that is anadromous and goes from salt to fresh. that these fish are all from steelhead genetics. Most professional biologists that I have talked to would agree that it's the migratory aspect of the fish that makes it a steelhead versus whether it goes into salt and back to fresh, or whether it just starts in fresh, goes into a big open body of water, and comes back to fresh. So that debate will never be, it will never be truly solved. But in my mind, the professional managers around here call them steelhead, and all of us anglers do as well.
Katie
Do you happen to know if there's anybody who makes an argument that the salt itself plays a role? Because I've heard the same kind of arguments that you've laid out here that either they need salt water or they don't, or it's just the migration part. But has anyone actually come up with a reason that the salt itself is important beyond just that's what they do out west?
Rick
Yeah, I've never read that. I've never read that before. My understanding is that migratory urge is to get more protein in your diet. It's just a way of finding more food, more protein to grow at a faster rate. It's been shown on a number of West Coast rivers. thing in the Great Lakes where you have fish that will stay as residents and even two resident rainbows can create steelhead offspring. And you know, one steelhead, or one adult steelhead and one resident can create steelhead offspring or you can create resident offspring. So it just seems to be on a almost individual fish basis that they, that fish wants to go and find more protein and you know kind of better its life I guess you know in terms of that standpoint.
Katie
Yeah that does strike me as the kind of the you know whether they have the urge to migrate or not kind of seems like the one deciding factor because you could you could take a rainbow trout and like toss it out in the salt water does that make it a steelhead instantly when it lands in the salt you know it's I feel like it's kind of a necessary part that the fish gets itself out there. But I kind of feel like you're right, that if the salt itself isn't really doing anything, and it's just that they are in a large body of water with a lot of space and a lot of prey, if that's kind of the defining thing that makes them so big and so, I guess, fierce and strong and have a lot of vitality, I fail to see beyond just people wanting to be a little bit exclusive about what they've got somewhere else. But I've also never chased steelhead out west, so I don't know if I can truly speak to that.
Rick
Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I can look at it as an I've fished West Coast steelhead, you know, quite a bit, you know, particularly up in BC. And, you know, to me, it's a, yeah, clearly a special fishery, because it's their native fish, you know, I mean, there's, there's no replacement for native fish. I mean, that's going to put it up here. No matter what, but it's still, you know, I think there's still steelhead in both places, you know, or trend, transplanted steelhead. naturalized, you know, but it's like I said, it'll be a debate that'll continue on for as long as there's fish in both places.
Katie
Yeah, I like that argument a lot more. It's that, you know, I view any fish that's in its native environment as kind of being a class above everything else because if that's where it was meant to be, that doesn't mean if you take a brook trout and put it in Colorado it's not a brook trout, you know, it's still a brook trout, it's just not it's not as exciting to catch maybe as one living in its native environment.
Rick
Exactly. And that's well said. I mean, that's kind of how I feel about it, too. You know, that's why I go to BC, you know, is to experience that. But that doesn't make, you know, the fishery that we have here in the Great Lakes any less special.
Katie
Was that first plant that they brought in the 1800s simply for sport? Or was there any sort of ecological reason for that first plant?
Rick
My understanding is back then the Federal Fish and Game just really wanted to kind of spread, I mean it was a conscious effort to spread species out within the country. So the idea of bringing these mountain trout from California to New York was just kind of something that was part of just a program to spread fish out. my understanding. And the hatchery that they were brought to in New York was run by this individual named Seth Green and he was the kind of a father of fish culture in the United States. So there was kind of a connection there with that.
Katie
The kind of like culture of Great Lakes Steelhead being what it is today, did that pop up before the plant in the like 70s, 80s? Or was that, like did that spur a new interest in fishing? Or had that interest been there for you know a hundred plus years at that point?
Rick
Yeah you know just anecdotally I can find different stories of anglers pursuing steelhead throughout that time And even just even on some of the local rivers here, you know, I can and and many of those anglers have passed But you know where I had discussions many years ago with some of the older anglers then that you know remembered catching You know these wild fish Because there was really no stocking going on then You know back in the 50s and 60s before the stocking but it was a pretty limited number I don't think it was a really, I think in places maybe in Michigan and Ohio there was a bigger following. But again, just a lot of anecdotal stories. But certainly it really took off with the additional. But there was, there were a few rivers with high water quality in the Great Lakes that were producing significant numbers of fish, you know, all through the, you know, you know, all through the first half of the 1900s before the additional stocking. But it really, the culture that we know today certainly has a lot to do with the additional plantings, and not even just that, but also probably in the last 20 years, 15 years, the professional fishery managers have put more emphasis on the tributary fishing, the river fishing. There's still a long way to go. There's still a lot of things that can be done to make it even better. I think that emphasis, both in terms of protecting the fish through more stringent limits and things of that nature, some closed seasons up in Ontario, some additional stocking in areas where there isn't natural reproduction, that's really helped the fishery in the last 20 years. kind of really created the culture that we see today.
Katie
I know this is probably going to go against your instincts as a passionate steelhead angler. Have there been any downsides to the introduction into this area that both salmon and steelhead were not native? You hear about government agencies introducing something to fix a problem and then it makes an even worse problem and I don't get the impression that that's happening but are you aware of any kind of like downsides of having these species here?
Rick
Well, I'll tell you the biggest downside of this whole thing occurred. I think some fisheries managers, if they had it all over again back from the '60s and '70s, would have probably made a different decision. They brought Chinook salmon, King Salmon here. They created a good lake fishery. They still in Lake Michigan, Lake Ontario, parts of Lake Huron, I think. I'm not sure how good that fishery is now, but it creates a good charter boat lake fishing. The salmon in the Great Lakes, when they come in, they just come into the rivers usually. There's some opportunity to catch them legitimately in the lower ends of some of the rivers, but they came with this reputation that they didn't eat when they came in the rivers. So what followed was kind of just a circus atmosphere on a lot of rivers where there was actually, even here in New York or Michigan, you could legitimately snag for these fish. And it just created a zoo on these rivers. And it would be in prime September, October, November, I mean prime time when steelhead fishing should be at its best in the Great Lakes region. So that was one of the real downsides of it, was that. And it took a long time to kind of correct that, both in terms of reducing the numbers of chinooks that were stocked, to educate people on how to actually catch those fish when they were coming in. But I think that just reducing the numbers way back has had a lot to do with improving. And certain lakes now don't even have really Chinook runs. I mean, Lake Erie, they don't stock any Chinooks in Lake Erie. There's some remnant wild runs. So that was a definite downside. And that really created a bad, bad, bad reputation for the Great Lakes. it's still a stigma that's out there and it's taken a long time to kind of shed that, you know, really kind of, you know, terrible image. So, but I think it's getting there now. And, you know, the places where Chinook still exist, you know, there are ways that you can, you know, catch them legitimately. And, you know, I think it's come a long way. So, you know, that's certainly been, But I think in terms of the steelhead, they've kind of co-existed pretty well. There may be, somebody can maybe point some damage to the native lake trout and whatnot, but overall I think they fit in and co-exist pretty well with the other native species.
Katie
Yeah, I've never heard of anyone saying anything negative about, they've wiped out the such and such population or whatever. It just seems like such a big species to show up in an environment and not have an impact. It's kind of cool to hear that they've mostly coexisted without, you know, destroying a whole bunch of native stuff that we're now trying to bring back. Like I've never heard anything like that. So I just wasn't sure if you'd know more than I did on that.
Rick
Yeah, no, I mean, you know, like I'll just take Lake Erie, for example. I mean, you know, the smallmouth fishing is seems to be, you know, at its best. Wildlife fishing is good. I think one of the things with steelhead has been shown is they can adapt to a wide diet when they're out in the lake. So I don't think that they're necessarily just attacking one element of the food chain. They're very adaptive. So I think that's part of the reason they can coexist pretty well.
Katie
What is the New York steelhead scene like? I've talked to people who fish the Pennsylvania tributaries and the Ohio tributaries, but I don't think I've ever actually talked to somebody who's done the New York steelhead scene. So have you fished the other ones? And if so, how does New York differ?
Rick
So New York has rivers, streams, creeks that go into Lake Erie and also into Lake Ontario. I think there's some pretty high quality experiences to be had on the handful of rivers that go into Lake Erie. Most of them have some decent length. The one that I fish the most is the Cattaraugus. It's almost 50, or I'd say 40 miles up to a dam. And someday there might be a passage on that dam that would open up another 30 miles or something like that. So there's certainly on that river there's a lot of room to spread out and it's beautiful and it's great water for small spay rods, short spay rods, and swinging flies. And I think it's a tremendous experience, fishing experience. It does have wild fish as well. The only issue with that river is it tends to get dirty easy after a rain and stay out of shape for a while. So it's very fickle. In some ways, it's frustrating if you're traveling in from out of town. It's frustrating sometimes when I'm guiding. But it also is part of its allure, I think, because when it's in shape and it's fishing, it makes it that much more special. But there's a handful of other tributaries that are the same thing, run through small gorges and just really pretty settings. You don't have generally the density of crowds that you might experience on Elk Creek in Pennsylvania. And New York doesn't stock as many fish, so it spreads things out a little bit. I think it just doesn't condense the anglers. I think there's a little better, just more realistic expectations on your hookup The Lake Ontario tributaries, there's a handful of those, Niagara River, Genesee River, and then the Salmon River. A little bit bigger waters. The salmon is probably the most popular and does really get a lot of fishing pressure, particularly when the salmon run is on in the fall. But it is also really pretty, probably 15 miles of river there, really nice for swinging flies a little bit bigger than like the cataract this would be and you know just some beautiful tickets why both wild and hatchery fish hatchery is on that river so get some beautiful beautiful bright chrome steelhead I mean you wouldn't you know some of the fish you catch out of that river you just you know and the same thing with the cataract is you would just think they were you know west coast fish.
Katie
Is swinging flies a pretty common technique that people use there or is it a lot of indicator nymphing and some people just like to swing because they like to swing.
Rick
Swinging flies has definitely increased dramatically in the last, interest in the last five to ten years, no doubt about it. And I'd like to think that myself, a handful of my friends that started fishing in this area were some of the first to ever do it back in the 80s. Back then, a lot of people didn't even think you could catch them on flies, and they certainly didn't think you could catch them on a streamer or swinging and everything. It's just really amazing to see how far that's come. Now, you just see a lot, even single-hand anglers. A common technique too is to kind of make a cast across and it's kind of half dead drift and let it swing out at the end. So even a lot of single hand anglers are kind of ditching the indicator and kind of just finding that grab, that tug is a lot more fun than catching a few more on an indicator.
Katie
Is your hookup rate still pretty high compared to... I picture the West Coast. I hear people for like weeks because they want that one hit on that on the swing. But I think of Great Lakes as being like a numbers game like you can go out and actually catch like several steelhead. Is it is swinging there still like you're you're gonna have you know a decent number of fish in the boat or on shore in any given day?
Rick
Yeah definitely. I mean there's no question I mean when things are on you know it's not uncommon to swing and flies to hook four or five in a day. I mean I think You know good day for whether i'm fishing or what clients i mean if we hope to three that's good you know and but certainly the possibility of. Yeah yeah okay more is is you know there are some days when the conditions are off i mean it's very condition oriented. You know our rivers go up and down pretty quickly so you know a lot in water temperatures are you know a big part of that but there are some days where you might struggle to get you know one good. good hookup, one good grab. But for the most part, I think that's a good target two to three. Sometimes it's more if everything's fallen into place.
Katie
I do want to take a left turn and talk about muskies for a little bit, but I realized that we didn't actually talk about your work as a guide or with Swing the Fly. I guess those things might fit in well with Steelhead here before we transition to muskies. Tell me how you got into those things.
Rick
Sure. So, you know, guiding is something that I started when I was probably again, late 80s, early 90s. And that kind of rolled into eventually I owned a fly shop from about 95 to 2007, maybe something like that. So kind of guided through that entire time period, ran a, you know, outfitting business when we had our fly shop. So it's something that and then, Yeah, I took a pretty long break from it for a while and then just really about five, six, seven years ago kind of got back into it. So, something I enjoy. It's really, now it's much more, I would say, almost really all my steelhead clients are, you know, we do some for Lake Run Browns too, but they're all spay fishing, you know, so it's all swing and the fly. That's Most of the clients are as much learning when we're out on a trip as we are trying to catch fish. There's really, I just, the interest is really increased in kind of spay casting, spay fishing, swinging flies. So, there's just a lot of people that want to try to shorten the learning curve and kind of spend a day out there with me. And I have a lot of repeat clients too. So I love it. I've got great clients. really been, you know, it's tough. It's, it's been long days and, you know, I'm not getting any younger, so, you know, I can feel it at the end of the day, but, at the same time, I really do enjoy it.
Katie
And how about with Swing the Fly?
Rick
So Swing the Fly was very interesting. You know, Zach contacted me real early on. He was just kind of getting this thing going. I think he had contacted four or five other people to see if they wanted to participate, wanted to write. It was just a concept at that time. He started that with the oversized quarterly magazine. Oh, no, no, actually, let me take that back. He started it with online. I think it was online for three years. That's right. That's what it was. I thought it was a great idea. I think the community was even smaller back then. Still not real big, but it was smaller then, but I just thought it was a really good concept and a good opportunity to reach out to the type of people that share the same passion. Then it grew from there. I remember the very first years, it was just kind of voluntary, just providing some information. Then things kind of took off for Zach. I think the trajectory is still really good. He's got Daniel Ritz running the running the website now and he's doing a lot of things that you know Zach just simply didn't have the time for. So I'm right now the Great Lakes field editor and providing you know an article or two every, or an article every quarter we're going down, we're going to have a quarterly release of information on the website going forward. And also running the Spay Nation, you know, spay gathering here in New York. So, two or three years ago, Zach and Spay Nation, or and Swing to Fly, obtained the rights in the name of Spay Nation, which had been a spay clave that had been going on for like 10 years before COVID. And it's just really, again, just continuing to grow. I just hope that we're gaining members all the time. And if you are into spade fishing and listening to this and aren't familiar with Swing the Thigh, certainly check it out. It's got information on the website that's both membership-based, so you have to be a member to access it, and then there's other information that's just kind of free to the public. So I think it's worked out well, and it's just Alan, Zach, and I become good friends, and we've traveled a bit together and look forward really to seeing where it goes.
Katie
That's great. And your writing is actually what, I was on your website just poking around and your writing is what made me realize that you also do a ton of musky fishing 'cause I had no idea. And it's kind of funny 'cause I don't think of those two species as like overlapping much. Like I feel like musky people are musky people and steelhead people are steelhead people. Like maybe more so than any two other species in the contiguous US. So I want to shift gears and kind of hear about that because that's something that I don't feel like a lot of people dabble in. You know, they kind of go full steam ahead at muskies. So how did you start picking that up as a thing on the side?
Rick
Well, and you touched on a few things there. Muskie people are muskie people. I mean, there's no question about it. I belong to a local club here and I'm one of myself and my one other friend are probably the only two real serious fly fishermen in the group. all the others, I mean I'm not sure the other guys really, I mean they do fish for other species but they are definitely muskie focused and really singularly. So I mean there is that definitely once you kind of cross over that line and get into muskie fishing it is pretty all consuming and somewhat obsessive. I think the reason that I'm into it though a real healthy native wild population of muskies in the Niagara River where I grew up. I've told this story a few times, but my uncle was a member of this fly fishing club on the upper Niagara River. He used to take me there when I was very young. I was probably six or seven, maybe when I first went in there. the club still exists. It's like one of the oldest operating, continuously operating fishing clubs in the United States. And he took me in there and there was this big musky mound on the wall. And you know, I probably, you know, to me it was huge. I mean, it might only been 43, 44 inches, but it just had big mouth, a gape with teeth protruding. And I was shocked when I found out that that, you know, that fish came out of the river, you know, cause we would go swimming in the river and things like that. So I think it just hit point at some point I was going to have to fish for those. And it really would, it took a long time. I did, you know, we would catch some while we were bass fishing as teenagers and into my early 20s. But I never really fished for them with gear. But eventually when my fly fishing kind of skills got up to a point where my casting was good and I'd tie in bigger flies, learned about sinking lines and 10 weight rods. Around 1990, I started fishing for muskies and there was really a good population of muskies in the Niagara at that time. Same thing, just the trajectory just kind of met. I was just getting proficient enough with the fly rod and there was this good population. It really was a peak there in the population. So I really started doing it. Off and on, from the 90s through the 2000s, there were some years where I'd fish for them quite a bit, other years not as much. But over the last 20 years, it's been something that I spent a lot of time every year. It's hard to fit it all in. I used to bow hunt quite a bit in Nepal too. There was one point where I was trying to bow hunt, and this was before I got remarried so I was even single at the time, and I was trying to bow hunt, I was trying to musky fish, I was trying to steelhead fish. Just at some point, I just knew something had to give. So I don't bow hunt much anymore, but I've really gone kind of crazy on the musky fish, particularly in the fall and early winter and whatnot. So.
Katie
You may have just answered my question there saying when you do it, but I was wondering if, if musky and steelhead worked together nicely because they might not overlap season-wise, but maybe they do.
Rick
They do. Um, and there is definitely some, you know, some balancing act there. I guess I feel like particularly in my own fishery, there are certain times when the steelhead fishing is, you know, it's a pretty long period of time when there's, we have access to steelhead in the Great Lakes. So, really, really from about the beginning of October, almost all the way through when we're still, you know, we're still at it now and through the middle part of April, even late April, you know, on a colder year like we have right now, you know, we might get locked out a little bit in the wintertime, you know, with ice. So, there's a pretty long period there both for my guiding and personal fishing. And there's a few times where muskie, particularly on my own river, looking at more like November and the first part of December when it's really the prime time. So I think the way I kind of pursue it is when those things are in their prime, I kind of set time aside to make sure that I'm taking advantage of that as much as possible. it is a balancing act, there's no question about it.
Katie
Tell me about conventional fishing for muskies versus fly fishing for muskies. Because, you know, I know that's kind of a growing thing. Maybe it's not even growing anymore. Maybe we're just there. That there is a big muskie fly fishing scene. But you know, it's always, I've always wondered if people fly fish for muskies because it's actually a really effective way to catch them or because people just like fly fishing and they want to add muskies to that activity that they already love doing. is it effective or does conventional gear really still blow fly fishing out of the water for muskies?
Rick
Boy, I'll tell you, I think it's pretty effective. It's, you know, there's a lot of layers there. Certainly muskie fishing is about having your lure, fly, you know, whatever you're trying to use in the water most as possible. So gear angling is always going to have an advantage there because it's easier to get your lure or offering back in the water than it is with the fly. There's just inherently going to be not casting as far or not getting it as deep as quickly, fly in the air while you're making your back cast. I mean those are all, you know, it's just statistics to some degree. So I mean, you know, that's going to make it less, you know, less effective. But overall, I think with the rods, reels, equipment that's available today with some of the advancements that have been made in flies in the last 10 to 15, 20 years, I can feel like I can go out and be very effective. One thing that I do think fly anglers bring to the table is anytime is they have a certain element of stealth that they've learned and I do think that travels to musky fishing so I do think you can you know play upon that and pick up on pick up some fish that you know maybe the gear anglers are missing from that standpoint but I also think that um you know just the so one thing that where I really feel like it you know I've made a big uh change in the last seven or eight years that's really helped my fishing is and you talked about you know the connection between spay and or you know steelhead spay and muskies the thing that you know I think has really helped my fishing is I use a two-handed rod for musky fishing so I'm casting overhead with a two-handed rod you know there's a few manufacturers now and I'm using a miser rod that's built for shooting heads overhead casting. And there's a lot of similarities to the spay cast. I'm really using my bottom hand to pull in and get line speed and a lot of power. And I really feel that my fly, I can make longer casts than I can with a single hand rod. I have that fly back in the water because you're stripping that fly back to within 18 inches of the rod tip every time so you can do a figure eight. So the real trick then is to get the head of the line past the tip and to be able to then you know you got 50 feet of say running line stripped out on the deck, get the head past the tip of the rod and then propel your cast out and you know make your 80-90 foot cast. I can do that so much quicker and so much more efficient with these two handed rods. I mean, we're reducing the number of back casts that it takes. It can just get a real system together to get my fly back out there, much less wear and tear on the body. So, you know, I really can stick with it all day long. You know, instead of kind of feeling the drain that you do with a single hand rod. So to me, that's, you know, that's really changed. And, you know, I think in time, at least, you know, and I say this covering big water like on the Niagara, but I think in time most musketeers will go to that approach. If you see gear anglers out on the water, almost every one of them, well not even almost every one, every one of them is casting their baits with two hands. So it just kind of makes sense that fly anglers would do the same thing.
Katie
How does one do an overhead cast with a two-handed rod? Like what are the mechanics there?
Rick
So it's really just a combination of a single hand cast with some of the motion of the spay cast. So to make the whole process with the muskie, again I'm stripping that fly into about 18 inches. I'm going to, once I'm done doing the figure eight, I sweep my rod, let the water kind of pull most of the head beyond the tip but I won't get the entire head. I usually just pick that up and just kind of make a back cast like you would with a single-handed rod. Usually that back cast going back can throw the rest of that head past the tip of the rod. So I usually just make one more forward cast, you know false forward cast, one more back cast kind of get set up and then just make the cast forward, pulling in hard with the bottom hand and just kind of guiding with the top hand. But it really is a combination. I mean, you know, you're, you're just doing the same thing you would with a single hand rod, you know, just accelerating, you know, on the back cast to a full stop accelerating on the forward cast. But when you're punching that forward cast, you're really pulling in with that bottom hand. bottom hand replaces, like if you're double hauling, that bottom hand replaces that. You actually get a little of that on the back cast too because when I'm making the back cast, you're actually pushing out with the bottom hand. That really increases the speed of that. It's again similar to a double haul where you're pushing out and that's creating that extra speed. Then when you go forward, you're pulling with the bottom hand. It's amazing how much line lines we can get with that.
Katie
I guess I'm wondering, you know, what's the line doing? Because I picture with a single-handed cast, like the line is going to be in my other hand usually when I'm casting. And I sort of keep it from, you know, when I pull back, I don't want the line to just be kind of like limp because then the rod will go back and the line will kind of stay right where it is, right over my head. Are you kind of holding it tight for a sec to then shoot it back and let the line fly out behind you?
Rick
That's a great, no, honestly, that's a great question. Great question, Katie. And it's probably the most difficult part of this cast. So it's really it's a great question. And it's, you know, when I either I'm showing this to someone, you know, instructing them or, you know, a client, it's probably the thing they struggle with the most. So I'm controlling the running line, or the least in the beginning, it's going to be the head, but it's the running line. I'm controlling that with, explain this here, with the index finger and middle finger of my top hand on the rod. So I'm right hand dominant. I'm usually casting right-handed. So that is the key too, because you're going to continue to pinch that off, but you need to let up the tension to allow the line to go through your hands and through the tip of the rod. So the first, that first back cast, I want to continue to have that line under control between those fingers, but it has to be loose enough that that line can go back so I can lengthen the head of the line to be on the tip.
Katie
Okay. Yep. Yep. That makes sense.
Rick
And you almost got to feather that because the more head and weight that you get beyond the tip of the rod, the more it wants to pull, then you got to add a little more tension with your fingers so it doesn't go all the way through your line and then like you were just saying get all loose, you kind of lose your tension. Once I get that full head beyond the tip of the rod, then I really pinch down with those two fingers and then I only release that after I've made my forward cast, come to a stop, then I'll release that line and then it allows it to shoot.
Katie
Okay, yeah at that point it becomes more like a normal overhead cast just with you. You've got two hands going But but that that's super clear I can probably picture what you're doing now and I could see how that would work You just have to I feel like it takes a practice like some muscle memory probably needs to develop for a little bit
Rick
Absolutely. Like I said, that is where the cast itself is pretty easy for anybody. That's Cast even overhead and definitely easy if you've done both You don't cast spay cast and cast overhead but that controlling the line is this thing that everybody, you know Kind of struggles with at first
Katie
I noticed your book was called. I don't remember the exact title I remember the word hunting was in it like hunting for muskies.
Rick
Hunting musky with a fly.
Katie
That's it. Yes What tell me why the choice of the word hunting there because I don't feel like I never heard anyone describe like hunting trout on A fly that's not that's not how people describe it. So I I feel like that must be intentional Tell me the thought behind that.
Rick
Yeah, I think it's just from the standpoint that I really do feel like muskie fishing is a lot like big game hunting in that you're not going to necessarily have success every day or your successes may be in terms of having a fish follow or having an encounter. Your successes may be learning things, but they're not always going to be bringing a fish to the net. So I think just that kind of matching of wits, you know, just that same kind of approach that you just have to kind of check your ego at the door, know that not every day you're going to put one in the net. And I just feel as though that type of pursuit where you're pitting yourself against your quarry just feels a bit like hunting as much as it does fishing.
Katie
Yeah, we do a decent bit of hunting too and if we judged how well things went by how many animals we brought home we wouldn't be doing very well most of the time.
Rick
That's exactly right, but you know you try to take something from every day, you know, and you know, so I really just I feel like that's where it comes from, you know, it's just that that kind of approach and mental that mental fortitude that you have to have, you know, to kind of push on and just know that even when things aren't always going well, you have to rely on your instincts, rely on your experience, and usually good things happen eventually.
Katie
On that note about taking things from every day, which I assume is a lot of learning, when things don't go right, maybe making a change the next time, what kinds of things do you change up when you're muskie fishing and it's not working? And the equivalent I'm thinking of with trout is people talking about changing your presentation before you change your fly or change the size of your fly before you change the color, things like that. You know, if you're out muskie fishing and maybe you've gone all day and haven't seen a fish, had a fish follow, what is it that you're changing up first and why are you changing that first?
Rick
Well, there's a few things there. You know, and I think one thing that I've seen with muskie, and I think if you talk to a lot of top muskie anglers, you know, there's white windows during the course of the day. Sometimes it is just a matter of continuing to do what you feel is what you're confident in. Particularly if you know there's some fish around, whether maybe you're marking them on your electronics or you're seeing them or you're getting some follows. So there's a certain element of stay on the course that I like to follow. So if I don't like to jump around too much and kind of get caught in a chasing game, sometimes it's just a matter of staying straight on and I won't change a lot. But there are other times where you just really feel like you're kind of striking out, doing what you're doing. I know that a lot of anglers go to the fly box and some of my buddies are that way. I mean, there'll be 12 different flies that they've used on the day, by the end of the day, on the deck. So that's one way to kind of mix it up. I'm not a big fly changer myself. I mean, I have my two or three that I'll kind of go with, and they're all pretty different in terms of maybe color or size. But if things aren't working, my, I guess, go-to change would just be to kind of change the habitat that you're fishing. And just kind of think of it differently. Maybe fish deeper water, or try to find some areas where there's some bait, things like that. Just really, if you're going to switch it up, really switch it up that way. But sometimes technique or retrieve as well, too. You can vary that by the cadence, how much time that you give between each strip, trying to get that fly to kind of move from side to side. Sometimes when the water is warm, I'll go with a bit of a faster strip, two-handed strip. Sometimes when the water is cold, I'll go with a much slower retrieve. So those are the types of things. I'd be a little bit more attuned with changing the presentation and just changing the entire environment that I'm fishing. But for the most part, I like to try find where the fish are and just stay the course.
Katie
That's interesting. I'm glad I asked because that's not what I expected you to say, maybe because I've never heard that as an answer before. You know, going back to trout, because I'm primarily a trout angler, I don't think I've ever heard someone suggest changing where you're fishing as the solution. Because you go out, you're probably going to find trout. If there's trout in the river, it's not rocket science to figure out where they might be hanging out. And usually the problem is either your presentation or the fly. I know people say it's presentation, but at the end of the day, trout are often going for matching the hatch. So if you're not matching the hatch, you might very well need to just change the fly to what it is they're rising for. And as not a muskie angler, not an expert in any way on that, I could kind of see what you're saying there, where it's like they're not going to be eating a whatever hatch, a minnow hatch. They're eating whatever's in the river. So if you're putting something in front of them that is in their diet, in the regular diet in this river, It strikes me as a better idea to change either the way that's behaving, if they don't think it's behaving naturally, or just going where they are if you're not where they are. So I could see why you're saying that maybe a fly selection isn't quite the same thing as it might be for, let's say, trout.
Rick
Yeah, no doubt. Because a lot of times we're catching fish on flies that really don't represent an exact replica of what's in the river. My main fly is just an all black fly or a black fly with an orange tail. I mean, it could represent a number of things, but there's nothing that's jet black and an orange tail in my river, but that's what they seem to really like. But yeah, they do tend... One thing about muskies is they're always going to be in proximity to their next meal. So they are going to be in proximity to bait. They do move around. There's no question about it. And, you know, sometimes, you know, an area, a drift, um, that has produced very well in the last two or three years. I mean, for whatever reason, they just might not be there. Um, you know, and if they're not there, the density seem low, you know, again, based on what you're marking electronics, what you're seeing, um, with possible follows and whatnot, you know, if they're not there, it's just, sometimes it's just best to change it up.
Katie
Uh, similar to what I asked you about the, the New York steelhead scene. I'm curious about the New York muskie scene, because that's not a state I think of when I think of muskies. I'm usually thinking of the upper Midwest. Is New York a sleeper muskie state? Does it have some pretty good fishing?
Rick
It has some good fishing, yeah. There's no question. It doesn't have the bodies of water that Wisconsin or Minnesota does, or even maybe say Michigan. It doesn't have that same muskie culture that those areas have. That being said, yeah, there's really some good fisheries. The young gun, the Niagara, is one that's native Great Lakes fish. The St. Lawrence, which shares boundary with Ontario and Quebec, I think, and certain-- yeah, Quebec as it goes down. Has great-- some of the biggest muskies in the world are caught there. the biggest muskies on a year-to-year basis are caught there. Some of that's in New York water. One of the most famous fisheries really in muskie is Lake Chautauqua, which is in New York as well. Rich history there of muskie fishing. So New York maintains a pretty good program in terms of stocking areas that need stocking and managing for wild fish where possible. So there's not a, yeah, it's not Wisconsin, but there are some really high quality, probably maybe 15 to 20 serious musky bodies of water in New York State.
Katie
I think that's one of the biggest takeaways I've gotten from talking to all these people around the country is that there's a lot of states that don't come to mind when you think of species A or even fishing in general. And it turns out basically everyone I talk to has some great fishing near them that just might not be nationally known. Like it's not being written about in the magazines as much. But there's not a lot of places around the country that you can't find some kind of good fishing.
Rick
That's very true. And I think one thing about where we are here is we're fairly blessed with just the variety of everything that we have. We have some high quality, you know, like I said, I just really kind of like to do everything. We spend a fair amount of time smallmouth fishing and we fish for carp. And, you know, like in June and even the last few years we've been fishing for sheephead in the freshwater drum in Lake Erie and been catching some big ones on the fly. So really, you know, I try to take advantage of everything that this area has to offer for sure.
Katie
Well on that note, is there anything about steelhead or muskies or your area in general that we didn't touch on that you'd like to leave as a parting message or just something you want to share about those?
Rick
You know, certainly I think the one thing I would say is, particularly if listeners that haven't been to New York State, if you live out West and you kind of think of New York State is all of New York City. We really have an amazing state that has just a wide variety of different landscapes and different opportunities both from fishing and hiking and hunting, really some wilderness areas up in the Adirondacks and the Catskills. Some tremendous trout fishing at the other end of the state on the Delaware River and certainly some other high quality trout streams as well. It definitely doesn't have the large expanses of land that you might find out west, but the variety that exists here in New York is pretty spectacular. It's something that throughout my life, I mean I've lived here my entire life, I've had opportunities probably me to go to different places. For a while, I really felt like I wanted to move to Montana. My brother lived there for a number of years. Every time I thought about pulling up stakes and going somewhere, this area just keeps pulling me back. It's home. It's where I grew up. There's just really something special about it. I just really enjoy living here. So, you know, it's a nice easy place to, you know, to travel. I try to travel, you know, to fish on a regular basis. Easy place to get in and out of for that too. So, you know, I think that's really one of the things if you haven't, if you haven't been to New York, you know, you get the opportunity to. There's some really special places here.
Katie
That's great. Well, Rick, where can people find you if they want to check out your website or any of the writing you've done where's the best place to do that?
Rick
So my website is just RickCustage.com and I'm on Instagram just @rickkustich and on Facebook at Rick Kustich. That's one of the I guess one of the advantages of having a name that seems to be unique in the United States I don't have to add any letters or numbers to my Instagram handle.
Katie
Perfect and how about your books I assume people can find them on Amazon, but is there anywhere less megastore that people can find them?
Rick
Yeah, so they are on Amazon. If anybody wants a signed copy of Modern Spey Fishing or Hunting Musky with a Fly, they can just reach out to me through direct message. Either on my website there's a way to contact me or on Instagram you can message me, Facebook message me. So I'd be happy to sign and send anybody a book. There's a handful of shops that definitely carry the fly shops that carry the book or I'm sure could get it for you. It is available also on the Swing the Fly website, at least the modern spade fishing is. So a lot of places to pick it up.
Katie
Perfect. Well, Rick, this was a lot of fun. These are two species that I don't really get to fish for. So it's fun to hear a different part of the fly fishing culture out there that I know a very heavy following for both that I'm just not a part of. So I just appreciate you taking the time to do this.
Rick
Great, Katie. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. And yeah, I hope everything continues to go well for you. And thanks again.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you wanna find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you wanna reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.