Ep 157: Conservation Communication and Adjusting Expectations Outdoors, with Ashley Peters
Ashley Peters is a conservation communicator and board member for the Outdoor Writers Association of America. In this episode, we discuss her work on a trail crew in Alaska, how to communicate the importance of conservation effectively, how to avoid the doom and gloom often associated with conservation work, how she has had to adapt her outdoor pursuits in light of a chronic illness diagnosis, and her upcoming trip to the Boundary Waters.
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Intro
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 157 with Ashley Peters on conservation communication and adjusting expectations outdoors.
Katie
Okay, well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got introduced to the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing. And I read beforehand that you got started in fly fishing a little bit later in life, but how did you get introduced to the outdoors in the first place? And then we can go into your fly fishing journey.
Ashley
Sure, yeah. Well, I grew up in Iowa, so I grew up in the outdoors, but it was a lot of work. We did a lot of detasseling outdoors, a lot of lifeguarding. So early on in my life, the outdoors equaled work for the most part. And then as I got into college in my 20s, really got to discover backpacking, camping, rock climbing, fishing, eventually hunting. So a lot of it started with maybe trail running in college where I thought it was fun and then ended up getting a job in Alaska doing trail building right out of college. And that really set the stage for my interest in conservation and just backcountry and general adventures in the outdoors.
Katie
Was trail running something you were doing in Iowa or had you moved out of state by that point?
Ashley
Not as much in Iowa. When I went to school in northern Missouri, there was a state park nearby and it was often where a lot of college students went out and studied or took a break from school. They had, it was probably only a couple miles, but they were just these single track little trails in and around trees and rocks. was something that it did a little bit of growing up around the lake, but it became kind of a, you know, solace from the stresses of college. And so instead of it being related to, you know, cross country or track or a sport that I was out for, um, it was, it became very personal at that point. And so I think that made a difference to see that as a place I used to go to really clear my head, to think about something other than school and work. So that's probably the first time I remember really seeking out trail running was in college.
Katie
I love that you associated going outdoors with work. And then as soon as you found a passion outside that, you went and did arguably one of the most labor intensive jobs that there is in the outdoors, which is trail building. Tell me about that. What's it like to be on a trail building crew? I imagine it's like some of the strongest, fittest people, you know, digging dirt and hoisting rocks and stuff. So just like, fill me in on that. What's it like?
Ashley
Yeah, it was definitely a big-- it was a big thing to do right out of college. I had not really been on a big backpacking trip or anything before that. And just really-- you know, at the end of college-- and I think probably a lot of people can relate to this-- you feel a little bit lost when you're right out of college and you're trying to find your direction. And I was working part-time at a CPA firm and doing some other part-time work and it wasn't even close to writing or communicating about something meaningful that I wanted to do eventually in my career. So at that point I was like, well, just about anything is great at this point, that gets me out of my comfort zone. And so, yeah, saw an ad for a job in Alaska and it happened to be trail crew based with AmeriCorps. So the organization is no longer running, but it was a nonprofit that brought folks up from the lower 48 and then put them to work, like you said, doing some of the hardest labor there is, but it was really an incredible way to learn about our public lands, to understand different federal agencies and what they do versus what the state agencies do. When you're the one on the ground building the trail or removing invasive species or a ton of different other jobs they had for us, you really get a firsthand view of what the work looks like day to day. So I really think it was this incredible education on not just conservation, but also how people view conservation. when you're on a trail crew and you're out there, in addition to dealing with the bugs and the bears and the moose that we did, we also were the face of these agencies in a lot of ways because the folks who were hiking those trails or in the area would see us working and they just come over and start asking questions. And so really I think of it as my first communications job because it was quickly having to transition thinking about the logistics of the work and how that's going to get done, to thinking about how the public was viewing the work that we were doing, why it was important. And a lot of folks who have done jobs like that understand, especially maintenance jobs, that these are the invisible jobs that not a lot of people really think about or see unless they see you doing it. And so I always thought it was a great opportunity for me to not only learn about conservation, the outdoors, and work that goes into it, but also to figure out how do you talk about it? How do you explain this in a way that a lot of different people can understand and really carry that forward into understanding when they're recreating, when they're out doing things, how they could even be helping with conservation.
Katie
Were you given specific guidelines on how to communicate with somebody if they came across you on the trail? Or was it kind of up to you to take that initiative?
Ashley
It was pretty general guidance, right? So we would always have AmeriCorps logos on and so we'd always say, you know, we were AmeriCorps crews helping to do some of the backlogged work related to land management. And so there were pieces like that. And then obviously if they had any specific questions for the Forest Service or the Park Service or other agencies, you know, I had their name and numbers to pass along. But you know, then they'd be like, "Well, how did you get up here? Why are you doing that?" You know, like people were just really curious about why this crew of 20-somethings was out, like you said, doing this really tough work when there are a lot of other things you could be doing in your 20s. It was a blast and it was always fun to talk to folks. And we always had stories. Of course, we ran into bears. Of course, we had a lot of situations that, looking back now, were pretty scary. But at the time, it was all an adventure and it was fun. So it was a lot of storytelling at the time.
Katie
Yeah, I've been there too. I feel like there's a special place for Red a college job where you're still kind of young and dumb, but you have no real responsibility yet and you can just kind of go out. And looking back, you're like, "Oh my God, I can't believe we did that." But at the time, it was like living the dream. So I feel you there.
Ashley
Yeah, definitely. There was a kayak trip that I'm honestly surprised we came back from. There was, you know, while we were on the kayak trip, there was a tree that fell on somebody's tent. Who there, you know, we got charged by a moose, you know, while we were chain sawing, you know, like I said, we ran into grizzly bears and black bears and, you know, so it was definitely full of adventure and looking back now, like I said, I probably would handle things a little bit differently now that I'm in my late 30s, but it really did set the stage for my understanding of what you can do on public lands and the kind of adventures you can have outdoors. And it maybe makes things a little bit easier now to chill out and not be-- I don't know, to not be as ambitious sometimes with my outdoor pursuits, because I did get to do quite a bit in my 20s. Yeah.
Katie
A quick just kind of personal selfish question about dealing with the public when you were out working. Because I do a decent amount of fieldwork now. And we're often approached by people who want to know what we're doing. And I really have to straddle the line of, I want to put on a good face and represent my team well, but also I'm trying to work and I really don't feel like dealing with the public having a bunch of basic questions about what we're doing. I'm just trying to get my job done so I can get out of here. Did you enjoy your interactions with the public? And were you excited to share what you were doing with people? Or did you find yourself being like, "Please, I'm hot and sweaty and hungry, and I just want to be left alone to get my job done." Or was it somewhere in between?
Ashley
I think it was somewhere in between. You know, it's funny you bring this up too, because my husband's a biologist, and he will sometimes also talk about, yeah, the field work. He works with invasive carp, and so he'll have the public come up and talk to him while He's covered in fish slime and blood and just trying to figure out how to navigate, yeah, that respectful side of wanting to answer people's questions, but also you are on the job. Thankfully, when I was in AmeriCorps, a big piece of those AmeriCorps positions is really being an ambassador, they kind of know, um, some of these AmeriCorps crews, uh, the work that gets done might be variable, you know, um, depending on who's the crew, what experience they have. I was really lucky to have just a very productive crew, um, in terms of the work done. And so I do feel like I became a little bit of the, the voice box and the spokesperson who, um, who would talk to folks and stand there as long as they wanted to talk and answer their-- as long as, you know, it was staying on topic and we were answering their questions about the work we were doing. But it's, you know, it's really important to answer people's questions because like I said, some of that work is so invisible for a lot of people. And so, I do feel like it's really important to lean into that. And when people are curious about it, you know, that's something that back to their friends and their family and it's the kind of thing that becomes part of daily conversation. And in my mind, that's how you get the most out of conservation discussions is when it's something that people can fit into the space of their daily lives and talk about it in a way that's not overly preachy. It meets people where they're at, it makes it relevant to their lives? So yeah, I, and again, looking back now, I realized what that was for me. But at the time, you know, I just knew people were really curious and excited and wanted them to keep that. So yeah, what about you? Do you feel like, do you feel like you have a limit? Oh, yeah.
Katie
I think you're more patient than I am. It depends on the questions too and how persistent they are.
Ashley
That's fair.
Katie
I also get a lot of questions that are kind of like outside my scope of knowledge that I get frustrated with those from like this, you know, you're not asking what I'm doing here, you're asking about like general things that are semi-related to what I'm doing and I'm like I'm not the person to ask about that. So I probably have a shorter fuse than you do. I think being a communications person, you're probably much more receptive to people than I am. light, but I'm kind of generally trying to get the conversations to end as fast as I can.
Ashley
Well, what I will say about that is I think working in restaurants as a waitress for a little while in college probably did more communications training for me than just about anything else, because yeah, you've got to have a lot of patience when you're dealing with people constantly all the time like that. So I think when I was out on the trail, it was really kind of a break from whatever we were doing. So yeah, it depends on how often you're getting interrupted and asked questions. Yeah.
Katie
Sure. I think everyone should work either service industry or retail at some point in their life just for a year or two to have that experience under their belt because yeah, it'll train you in how to communicate with the general public, which you don't realize what the general public is like when you're in your little insulated sphere around yourself. So yeah, just getting Being exposed to society as a whole is, I think, valuable for young people.
Ashley
I wholeheartedly agree with that. Yeah, you can almost tell sometimes when you're talking to someone whether they worked in retail or service industry.
Katie
I know we're going to come back to conservation communication and sharing that with the public. But one more question about trail crew. What's a typical day like? How remote were you in Alaska? What would your wake up, go to work, eat lunch, come home-- or not home, but maybe back to camp-- routine look like? Because you're right, it is kind of an invisible job. But more than once, I've been on a trail in the middle of nowhere and thought, how did these rocks get placed where they are? How did these cross wooden beams get placed here, just thinking about how far I am from a trailhead? So I'm just curious, while I've got you here selfishly, tell me about how that works. Because I don't know, and I've kind of always wondered how trails get built.
Ashley
It's a good question because it totally depends on the landscape and what you can do. A lot of those bigger, you know, the the bigger logs or rocks that we had, if you've got the opportunity to be able to harvest a tree right there, that really does look solid. Obviously, it depends on what you're building. When we were up closer to Anchorage for one of our projects, they brought it, they flew in, you know, um, the boards and the, the, um, and the wood because we were building a bridge. And so obviously you want that to be really sturdy and want to use something that you know for sure isn't rotted through the middle or something. Um, but in other jobs, you know, if it was just logs lining the trail or, you know, buildings and rudimentary steps or things like that, um, sometimes, yeah, we'd harvest a tree that was, um, either right on the trail was supposed to be part of the trail or you know we'd find a tree that would had recently fallen and looked like it was in pretty good shape. So yeah it just kind of depends on what's around rocks. Some of those you can get from around the trail a lot of times they'll either fly in the gravel or in one case basically this was the worst project was having to bring in gravel in a wheelbarrow and it was one of those with like the one wheel in front and uh the logistics of trying to to you know push a wheelbarrow on freshly laid gravel when it's full of gravel um definitely let some of the stronger dudes uh take that one because it was really frustrating um and definitely dumped a pile of rocks here and there when I was trying to get things, you know, out to the end of where we were working. But yeah, there's a lot of logistical challenges like that, and you learn really quickly how to work as a team and when to check your own ego because that's, you know, when you get tired and frustrated and angry, that's exactly when accidents happen. That's when you have really big conflicts with people that, you know, aren't totally necessary. So was definitely, yeah, getting all those materials out there, working with those materials, getting them into the right place, you know, all of that. Yeah, it's a logistical challenge, but it's also like a personal ego challenge in terms of being able to say when, you know, at least for me, I always wanted to be the hardest worker out there, the person who was, You know, work is just as hard, if not harder, than everybody else. But when you hit your wall, you hit your wall. And it's important to recognize that. So hopefully that answers your question.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. Well, moving on a little bit and kind of continuing on the back of communicating to the public about conservation, we were talking before the episode about, or before we started recording, about how I've noticed that conservation episodes don't do as well as, you know, how to catch smallmouth bass on the fly or something like that. Like that's what people want to hear. But conservation is obviously very important to everybody who hunts and fishes and goes outdoors in any way. So you would be a great person to talk to about, you know, how do you make conservation palatable and exciting to both the outdoor recreation community and maybe people who are not connected to outdoor recreation and therefore don't really know, know, why they should care about conservation, why do these things matter? So I'll kind of let you run with this so we can kind of narrow it down as you mention things but I'll just kind of open it up to conservation communication as a whole and like why it matters and you know, how to do it effectively.
Ashley
Yeah, sure. It's a great question because there's a lot of different ways to approach, you know, conservation and a lot of different ways to approach outdoor recreation. I mean, when you think about what first grabbed you as a young girl or in your 20s, the things that made you excited, it really, for a lot of people, is the first book that they picked up. Here in Minnesota, obviously, we have a couple folks that we really--Sigurd Olson is coming to mind folks who write about local outdoors and some really iconic scenes. And that inspiration of writing, of adventure, of travel, that, from what I understand, for most people, is usually the inspiring moment. And so, to your point, a lot of us come to it from the standpoint of what do I get to do outdoors? Where do I get to go? What kind of adventure do I get to have? How do I get to experience this thing that I read about in a book or this poem I read and or this photo I saw, right? Like our world is so visual now. And so, in my mind the way that a lot of my communications have come to is just thinking about how to meet people where they already are, making sure that you're still connecting it to the things that they're experiencing day to day, that there's some relevancy. Whenever I get too deep into things like funding, pots of money that go to different conservation efforts, that's, you know, it's easy to lose people. It's not immediately exciting or inspiring, But those are the things behind the scenes that are, you know, keeping our conservation world afloat. So yeah, I think when it comes to different causes or, you know, different things we want to accomplish in conservation, again, the more that people already connect with a place, the easier it's going to be to help people understand what's needed, right? Or I did-- so with fly fishing, for example, I had never experienced fly fishing in the Southeastern United States. And my husband went to grad school down there. And so I was down there for two or three years visiting him and getting to go on these streams that I would have never known existed. And fishing for red-eyed bass, a species that I just didn't know much about before and would have never really thought to go fly fish for them. And after getting to go do that and seeing what like these rocky streams in Backwoods, Alabama that are still running through cities but you feel like you're in the back country, you feel like you're in the wilderness. Those were places that suddenly I cared about and I thought about and I was curious about and I wanted to know who was conserving these places, Who were the people that cared enough to be fishing these rivers and streams? What was the status of the fish in these rivers and streams? And so, you know, I think about a lot how I myself get excited and inspired, and then it's really just trying to apply that to whatever issue or cause that you're working on. But I'm curious, you know, have you found that to be the same thing where it's easier to bring a conservation message if you can bring an adventure message with it, too.
Katie
I don't know if it's specifically that, but something you said there did really ring a bell with me. And my husband and I have talked about this many times. And that is when we start to hunt a new species, suddenly we care about that species, whether we're hunting them or not. We see one out on a walk, and we're like, oh, it's a marmot. That's so cool. We love to see marmots. And before we hunted marmots, I didn't really I'm like, that's something that gets into the Cheetos when you're, you know, backpacking, you leave your pack on the ground too long. And you know, we've gotten into duck hunting in the past couple years. And now it's like, we'll walk past a city pond and I'm like, oh, look, there's a golden eye out there. There's a mallard out there, blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't hunt why it's suddenly so exciting to see all these species when we're not even in a hunting context. We're just, you know, walking down the sidewalk and we see something and we want to stop and take pictures and show people and talk about it. And it's something that just happens very naturally. It's not like I think I'm going to learn some intricate piece of duck behavior knowledge by seeing a duck fly past and I'm going to be able to use that later. It's just suddenly way more interesting to me when I have that connection to these species. And I know some fishing too, but not to the same extent, maybe because-- I don't know. I feel like if I feel connected to trout, I kind of feel connected to all kinds of species of trout. But I do still feel it in fishing, maybe more of like-- like you mentioned, where you go to a new place and suddenly your eyes are open to, I didn't even know you could fish in this place. Like, wow, this was a blind spot to me. I noticed it more with hunting species, but with fishing locations. So that really rings a bell when you say that, because it's something that's really hard to explain to people who haven't experienced it. But anyone who has experienced it, they're like, oh, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. don't have to say anymore. So that, that, what you said there with like really hit home for me.
Ashley
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I agree with you that hunting, it's, it's just different than it is fishing to some degree. But at the same time, you know, when you get obsessed with a species or even just an area, you know, one of the things I think about a lot is, you know, making the most of whatever you're closest to. And so, you know, I've lived here in Minnesota for I think 13, 14 years total. Thinking about what's around me, it'd be really easy to just see the cityscape. Like I'm in St. Paul, Minnesota, the capital city, but having been here for more than a decade, in addition to fishing and thinking about the different species of fish that I've gone after now, and then thinking about in recent years, I had gotten into hunting as an adult as well. And so, you know, roughed grouse and woodcock and pheasant and learning all of the habitat differences between even upland birds. And before that, right, it was canoeing and backpacking and rock climbing. And so, you know, these places where, you know, might just be 50 square miles has now become so layered with different stories of different species, different adventures, and I really love that about the outdoors, that you can engage with it on whatever level you want. You can go out and forage in the spring if that's what you want to do. I love going and camping around this time of year and hearing the rough grouse drumming in the woods, you know, like I'm I'm not even hunting this time of year, but it's just really fun to hear the rough grouse in the woods. You know, my husband and I do a lot of canoe fly fishing nowadays, and that's something we do more in the summer. And so, you know, there's a seasonal aspect to it too. And so I just, you know, one of the things that really hits home for me with conservation is just caring about a landscape or caring about a river and then digging in and trying find out everything I can about that area and the different things that I can do there and the different people in my life that I can introduce to things. Because to your point about, you know, how do you talk about conservation in a way that's really inspiring, it's still, a lot of it's grounded in experiential learning, you know, getting friends and family out so that they're not just listening to your talk, they can be immersed in it too. My family jokes all the time that I'm the birder, which to be fair, I'm not very much of an expert birder, but I do love birds. So even just hiking around a lake, I get to introduce my family to all sorts of bird species that they just knew they were these calls that they heard all the time, but now they know that, "Oh, that's a red star, oh, that's a cardinal, that's a robin. Even the most basic things, I feel like you can introduce people to conservation literally anywhere. So that's something that I really love about it.
Katie
Yeah, I think in person, what you're saying there is getting people connected to a landscape, because once they're introduced to it, they suddenly have skin in the game. Because like you said, it is at times almost a selfish endeavor. Not that that's a bad thing. I think it should be harnessed. But I don't care about somewhere in the middle of Europe I've never been because it just doesn't feel like it relates to my life at all. But I care deeply about many places around me because I'm like, well, I want to see this survive for future generations. So the more people you can get to care about any place, the more people are going to be at that place's defense when it comes down to it. Digitally, I wonder how you think that this can be kind of modernized. If you're not just introducing your friends and family to a specific location, but instead you're trying to appeal to the masses digitally, is that in the form of maybe when something about conservation is being shared that you also are providing some way for people to connect accessibly to this place? And I'm thinking of a podcast episode about conserving a particular species, but maybe you also share tips on how to fly there and actually fish for that species. So people feel like, oh, I should go check that out. That's just one example that comes to my mind. But how have you kind of adapted to a more digital world with a much larger audience who can't actually engage with you personally in a location that you care about?
Ashley
Yeah, that's a great question, because I'll give you the background that I typically in the past for the nonprofits that I worked for, typically those nonprofits were kind of targeted towards a specific group, so birders or hunters. And so these are folks who already kind of knew what was in the outdoors and what they wanna look for. And so there's a starting place there, right? And if you're already a birder or a hunter or an angler, you start with something that people can relate to. Maybe it's a bad trip. Like you can just tell a story about you being on a trip and everything going wrong. And that seems to pretty, you know, that's almost universally relatable. And so if you can start with something relatable and then transition into some of the details about that place or, you know, why it's so beloved. But, you know, I think in the broader landscape economics speaks loudly for a lot of folks. You know, I think especially for folks who may not be particularly outdoorsy or into conservation, I do think that a lot of people underestimate how much money there is in the outdoor space and in recreation and how much all of that relies on what we have in America in terms of public lands in terms of places to go and things to experience. And again, you know, me working in Alaska right out of college really opened my eyes up to how those different public lands are used. And I never, I never really understood that, you know, growing up. I just thought you had, you know, in Iowa for the most part, I was surrounded by a state park here and And so I didn't really think much about national parks or national forests or, you know, Bureau of Land Management and how these different entities kind of have different missions and there are different elements to how that agency looks at the landscape and how people experience it. And so, you know, right out of college, I was getting a lesson in that a lot of landscapes are, there are a lot of people behind the scenes thinking about how people engage with the landscape and how you can do that. And that's a lot of what conservation is, is thinking about what opportunities can you provide for future generations? What additional interesting things can you offer to people? And so I think that's why it's so important to have everything from state parks where, sure, you've got more development, you've got more trails, you've got more structure, all the way to wilderness areas where it's, you know, it's not as heavily managed. And that range of experiences is really important because as people go, as they want to explore their own either conservation journey or just outdoors journey, there's this opportunity to try different levels, you know. And I may have started out with backcountry, but a lot of people may start out with the And, you know, that may be as far as they get, but if it gets them interested in things, then that's what matters. So, this is a long way of saying that, you know, more broadly, how do we get people interested? And I will say it's very hard if somebody doesn't already care about the outdoors. If they don't find a particular interest in the outdoors and that exploration, it's gonna be really tough to get somebody to care about what happens to that landscape. Although sometimes talking about specific species, you know, there are charismatic species that we think about in conservation a lot because those charismatic species, you think about something like moose, about something like lake trout, for example. These are species that have pretty broad appeal, right? But when you dig into it, each of those species relies on this pyramid or umbrella of other species to help keep those charismatic species healthy, to manage their habitat. And so when you think about things like that, sometimes you can invite people in if they're particularly excited about certain charismatic species, which is of course why we see the Discovery Channel and Planet Earth and some of these other shows really drawing a lot of interest from folks because it is very visual. A lot of the species are very charismatic, but that can be a gateway. So hopefully that answers your question.
Katie
Yeah. For people who are already interested in conservation, how do you avoid the doom and gloom, everything feels hopeless? Because I feel like that's the other end. It's like, people already care about this stuff, and then they look at all the problems that fill in the blank with whatever they care about face. It can sometimes feel like I can't do anything. Nothing that I do as an individual is going to matter. And it's easy to get in a just screw it mentality. So how do you convey things in a way that is useful and not just overwhelming, I guess?
Ashley
Oh, man. This is a real tough one. Because to be honest with you, if you're thinking really big and you're thinking about things beyond yourself and your local area, it can get overwhelming really quickly. There's a lot to understand. Like I mentioned earlier, even if you just think about the different funding pots, the different types of public lands that go into the conservation landscape. It can take years sometimes to really understand all of that, or even to care to understand that. So, you know, I guess I can't always speak to the broader public, but what I can say about myself and managing that, day to day working in conservation and also working in communications. It's a lot of checking yourself and recognizing that if you get so overwhelmed that you do nothing and that you become paralyzed, then there's not even a try. How are you going to explain that to the next generation when they ask, "Why didn't you do something?" If you have at least tried you've at least given your all, if you've at least thought about what you would want for the next generation or the next seven generations, then you can look somebody in the face and honestly say, "I did everything I could," you know? And that's the thing I've really had to come to terms with, I think, over the years with conservation. As a young AmeriCorps member going to Alaska, I was gonna save the world, right? I was gonna save the environment single-handedly. And your ego gets checked really quick, especially when you can barely get that barrel, you know, the wheelbarrow of gravel across and you're having to ask your teammates for help. You realize that it really is all about the community. It's really all about working together, putting in the work that you can, that you're capable of, that you feel confident in, trying new things, but then also recognizing it's got to be a community effort. It's got to be something that you can turn to people around you and support each other, because there's just no way to do this work day in and day out and stay sane without having a strong community. At least At least that's how I feel. I guess that's my personal take on it.
Katie
Yeah. It kind of makes me think of the phrase, "Good is the enemy," or "Perfect is the enemy of good," I think, or something like that.
Ashley
Yeah, right.
Katie
Where if you're waiting for the perfect time to do something, or you can only complete something if you do it perfectly, and because perfect doesn't typically exist, you just do nothing at all, then you would have been 10 times better off just doing it well, getting something done.
Ashley
Right.
Katie
Maybe that means you can't change some big federal thing. It's just like you as an individual are going to not be able to meaningfully affect change. But maybe you can go to a local-- you could vote in a local election. You could go volunteer at a local event. And even if it's not perfect, if it's not going to save the world, it could save something locally. And maybe that inspires more people to get out there. And it does kind of balloon up a little bit. So yeah, I like what you're saying there about just doing what you can, because that can sometimes have unexpectedly big impacts.
Ashley
Yeah, and it adds up, you know? I mean, I think something about when I was younger was I was really impatient. You know, and I say younger, it was only 15 years ago, you know, that I was really just starting out in conservation. But you know, it's really easy to get bogged down in the moment or a few months and be like, you know, all of this work and I don't feel like I got a lot done. But the thing is, looking back over the 15 years of my career, almost 20 now actually, you realize just how many people you met on that, you know, during that time, how many different, you know, like, I love trying new things. And so, if I was trying to be perfect at rock climbing or fly fishing or hunting, I would have never tried those things because many of them are really intimidating right off the bat. All I did was fail when I was first trying those things, but each of those types of activities opened up a new door for me into conservation. And a big piece of conservation in my opinion is really people having their own stories that they can lean into and talk about so that other people can see your own passion and why you care. If you don't care about what you're talking about, if you're not passionate about what you're trying to advocate for, how are other people going to find that passion? And so a lot of times I feel like if I can just passionately talk about and share the things I've experienced and the things I've seen, And sometimes that's enough to inspire somebody and make them interested in different conservation initiatives.
Katie
I want to take a little bit of a left turn here and maybe talk about some fishing because you know, going with our point here, you know, if we get people excited, let's connect it to something that they're interested in. So we haven't actually gotten around to how you were introduced to fly fishing. And I don't know if that was before or after you started trail maintenance and work, but just walk me through that and we'll take it from there.
Ashley
[laughter] I say sadly because I lived in Alaska for the better part of a year, like I said, right out of college. And I didn't bird, I didn't fish, I didn't hunt. And so looking back now, I kind of regret all the things that I could have done that first year. But I did move back to Alaska later, and so that is actually where I first started fly fishing. I met my husband there, and he's a fish biologist, and I wanted to try to learn as much about fly fishing as I could on my own so that I didn't look like too much of a silly person when I was around him. And so, yeah, so Alaska was really the first place I tried it. I wouldn't say that I truly succeeded. My first catch was a sculpin, and it was kind of terrifying at the time when I was trying to take it off the hook. That's not exactly a sleek-bodied salmon or something that's really pretty to look at. So that was my first experience, but then we moved to Louisiana, And when I was in Louisiana, we did a lot of like, there were these sandy bottom creeks in the middle part of Louisiana, Kisatchie National Forest is down there. And so we'd just go fly fishing for really pan fish that were in the streams and rivers. And it's interesting that it wasn't really salmon or trout that got me into it. It was my husband just saying, fish for whatever's around on your fly rod. Like don't be picky about the species, just go for it. You know, and what I discovered down there is that there are just some really beautiful, I mean, if anyone's seen a pumpkin seed, you know, in the sunlight, like it doesn't matter whether I caught it on a fly or you're just watching it in the water, but really gorgeous species that you wouldn't necessarily think of as a target species fishing. And so that got me even more interested, but I realized you literally could do it anywhere if you just adjusted your expectations and you were open to the adventure. And so that's been really the theme with fly fishing is wherever I've gone, I've just kind of leaned in to whatever's available and around. Surprisingly now, I would honestly say that smallmouth they're probably my favorite thing to fish for on the fly. We do a lot of canoeing in rivers and streams here in Minnesota and in Wisconsin and really get kind of a backcountry feel, even though it's it's basically trip on a tank full. Right. Like, so we're going out and back in the day a lot of times. But something about those rivers and streams, even honestly, even in the middle of St. Paul and Minneapolis, there are these areas where you almost can't tell that you're in the middle of a city. So that's really where fly fishing has kind of led me, is just to this real love of rivers and streams and getting to see these places that, you know, even if they're not backcountry, they feel that way a lot of times.
Katie
What is it about smallmouth bass that does it for you?
Ashley
Well, I still don't mind catching panfish. I think they're really pretty. But with smallmouth, it's the variety of places and it's kind of a shock when you hook into one. I mean, it's a real adventure. And I'm sure if I lived out west and I were catching bigger trout, maybe that would be it. For me, it has a lot to do with the Rum River is one of the rivers here in Minnesota and kind of an unassuming river, but I caught a huge smallmouth last year when we were out. I really didn't think I was going to be able to reel it in. It was such a big bite and such good fight and um and shocking because like I wasn't catching anything all day and then all of a sudden this huge fish hooks on and um yeah so it's just a lot of fight and um really love where I end up catching them you know like I said it's kind of these unassuming corners right next to a big log or a down stump, and you just happen to hook into one. So I don't know. It's a good question. I think it's just the whole atmosphere of being on the river, being in a canoe, hooking into this fish, and honestly feeling like it's dragging the canoe around as I'm trying to reel it in.
Katie
Yeah, I'm with you. I'm a trout person now because of where I live, but I grew up on smallmouth bass, and I think that's my first love for sure that will never quite go away, even though I've had to adapt to being a trout person now.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, and honestly, anything out of a canoe. I've been surprised by how much I really like fly fishing in a canoe. And that was something I owe to my husband as well. he lived in Louisiana, we would canoe down these really rocky, shoal-covered rivers, and class two or three rapids in a lot of cases. And at first I was really scared. Tipping is not the funnest idea when you're canoeing, but he's a very good paddler. And so I had the good fortune of going down these rivers and we were fishing for Tallapoosa bass and we would come down through some of these rocks and typically I would be white knuckling it as we're going through. And then quickly my husband would turn the canoe around and paddle into the little eddies right behind the rocks and stuff and cast into there. And so definitely it gave me a lot of practice, fly fishing especially, with placing that fly just in the right spot, having your stuff ready to go, transitioning from being scared of falling out of the canoe and tumbling down the river to then all of a sudden have your game face on and be looking for just that right spot to cast into. And so, um, that really got me excited and interested in, um, canoe and river fishing. And so that, that really has carried over to Minnesota. So we typically try to find some places that, you know, we're probably like class two rapids are our favorites. Um, just cause it's, it's a little bit of an adventure, a little bit of a rush, but also some pretty good fishing.
Katie
Yeah. Um, I know we'll wrap up with kind of some, some plans you have for fishing in Minnesota and the boundary waters. But one other thing I want to revisit that we had talked about discussing in this episode, and you had mentioned changing expectations in the outdoors and in a different context. But you mentioned ahead of time that you've also had to change your expectations in terms of dealing with a chronic illness. And I know you said this also applies to lots of other things. Maybe people are dealing with a chronic illness. Maybe they've had kids. Maybe they're getting older and their abilities just aren't where they are. But for one reason or another, a lot of people are going to hit some point in life where things don't look the way they used to look. So I'll let you run with this and take it where you will, and I'll pepper you with questions from there. But what has had to change for you? And give me your back story on that and how you've had to adapt.
Ashley
Sure. Yeah. Well, it's been a journey just figuring out-- I think anybody who deals with a chronic illness can tell you the first thing you have to figure out is what you're dealing with and what new limitations might be as a person. And you know, I was an athlete growing up. I ran track and field in college. As you mentioned, trail building right out of college and I felt like a lot of the weightlifting and intense workouts I did in college totally played a role in, you know, being able to do those trail jobs those first couple years. And then rock climbing, you know, trail running, all these things over the years. Really super hyperactive and just always looking for a reason to get outdoors. Then these last few years, just trying to figure out what's going on where the fatigue is there more often, the inability to stand or walk for long periods of time. The things I eat affect me much more. Having to think a lot more about water intake, vitamin intake, it's just a lot more tracking things, looking at heart rate. And so, all of these things that were applicable when I was an athlete or when I was really active outdoors are suddenly now things that I pay attention to for warning signs, essentially, that I'm overdoing it. Because if I do, then there's no going outside for the next few days. There's no recovering that energy for the next two to three weeks. And so being much more realistic about my limitations despite what was the habit for me before. And so that's a big piece of it is the sudden adjustment of like, "Well, I used to be able to do this thing and I could backpack 40 miles in weekend, no problem. And now that's just not a reality for me. And so the great news is that I still have a great time outside and there's still plenty of adventure to be had. It's just thinking about different activities. And so like I said, canoeing, canoe fly fishing is a big part of my life now because I can sit down regularly and I can take a break if I need to and the seat is always right there. With wade fishing, I have to think a lot more about taking breaks, sitting down and making sure that I'm being conscious of my energy levels. But I think for anybody who's going through changes in life or taking kids out with them, it's a really good lesson to learn. And I'm actually really grateful to have a lot of friends and family who understand that. And so a big piece of it is really just talking to friends and family about what to expect. This trip may not be exactly what it used to be, but we can still have fun. We can still adjust what our goals are and how we wanna approach this. So yeah, it's kind of a cliche to say, but it's definitely all about attitude and how you think about things, going into that adjusting expectations.
Katie
How much of it for you was just, I would say, like on more of a surface level, like I'm just bummed because I like doing these things and I can't do them as much? And how much of it was like an identity, I am a person who does these things and now I can't do them to the same level? Because I think I'd kind of feel it on both levels if it were me. I'd want to go out and have fun, but I can also, like you said, have fun just doing things to a lesser extent. But there is also part of my identity that's like I go hard. I like to challenge myself. And if that were taken away, I think I would struggle with that a little bit more. So how have you handled that?
Ashley
Yeah, it's a great question. And I know this is more of a fishing podcast, but I will say it's affected me probably most with grouse hunting. There for several years was really getting into it, was thinking about getting a hunting dog, you know, got all the gear, like started to understand all the ways to scout and, you know, really got into the community and still love grouse hunting. One of my favorite things to do. But just physically, it's really, I have to think very hard about where I want to go, how I want to do it. Much more likely to stick to the trails versus diving into the woods and busting through the trees. And so you're right, there's definitely an identity piece to it where I had really come to identify myself as a grouse hunter and a fly angler. And then my expectations have to change. And so I still think of myself as those things at heart, but also know that for now at least I need to try some other things. And I do think that there's a period of mourning and kind of sadness as you're working through those emotions of inability in a lot of ways or different abilities. And so it just takes time And it takes having some really good friends around to be able to talk about it. And then I'm very lucky to have folks who are like, "Well, all right, if not grouse, then turkey." You know, if not fly fishing while waiting, then we're going to fly fish while we canoe. So I do feel very fortunate to have people around me that help me shift my thinking.
Katie
I know we're not going to go super deep into your specific illness, which I don't think could be useful anyway, because everybody's situation is going to be different. But I am curious, how much are you able to, I guess, prepare for it in a way that lets you still get out? If you had a trip that you really wanted to do, would you be able to really take care of yourself in advance in hopes that you can manage it? Or is it kind of like some days you wake up and things are great, sometimes you wake up and things aren't great? How much is in your control, I guess?
Ashley
That's a really great question, actually, because I think even before I had a chronic illness, I didn't understand the variability, like how much things can change day to day. One day I feel like my old self, I feel like I could run a few miles, no problem. And then the next day it's like I can barely get out of bed or the brain fog is so thick that like I just, I can barely grasp what I need to do for that day. And so the good thing is that there are things that I can do to control a little bit of what I'm dealing with. But so for example, this summer we're planning a boundary waters trip, me and three friends. And in thinking about that, you know, when I was younger and I had worked in the boundary waters, it would have been a point of pride to be like, okay, I'm gonna be the one to carry the canoe by myself, know, and get across this portage and might be a mile and a half portage. And I'm going to see that as like a real high point for me that like I was able to do that on my own. Now it's more like, all right, the point of pride is planning with my crew and being very honest with them about where I'm at and what my ability is that day. And kind of preparing them ahead of time with, you know, here's what I think I can achieve, but that might change. So let's plan for where I think the least of my abilities might be, and then if I feel up to it, then great, I can do more. And like I said, having to think a lot about food intake, water intake, one of the big challenges I would say with the outdoors is the fluctuations in weather. For a lot of people, that's an adjustment just on its own, is to prepare for the weather. When it's a chronic illness like the one I have, it's just even more of thinking about how extreme heat is going to deplete my battery that much faster. Thankfully, cold doesn't affect me as much, but if it ends, you know, we're going at the end of June, so easily could hit 90 degrees, you know? And so if it's really humid and it's 90 degrees, what am I gonna need to do to take care of myself? And so, yeah, there's a lot more thinking about those logistics and how to prepare the people around me for how my abilities might shift and change. But there's an element of, Like I said, before, the goals I had were how far I was going to hike or lifting that canoe. And now it's just more about having a good time and trying to prepare myself as well as I can. So yeah, that's more the adjustment that I have to make now.
Katie
One last question on this before I maybe hear a little bit about this trip specifically is-- and you might not know the answer to this, which is totally fine. Do you happen to know-- does your illness have any sort of kind of like future predictions? Or is it still so up in the air that you can't see it? I'm just, I'm thinking from the perspective of people who are dealing with other things, you know, like I have kids now or I'm getting old, because those are kind of on two different ends of the spectrum. I have kids is, you know, people are talking about like, oh, in just a couple of years, you'll be back out there. Whereas if you're, you know, getting older, it's probably not getting better. You know, you're probably declining and you can make the best of it, but you also need to kind of come to terms with that. And I don't know if that's something that you know, or maybe that's ever evolving, which is totally fine if you don't. But where does that stand? Do you have kind of hope for the future that things might clear up? Or is that still uncertain, and you're kind of living in a way that makes-- if this is it, this is it, and you'll make the best of what you have now?
Ashley
Yeah. I mean, as of right now, we have no idea. Still not even 100% sure what kind of triggered chronic illness. I will say a lot of women in middle age encounter that, that things that didn't bother them in prior decades suddenly become a bigger challenge. And sometimes that can be post-pregnancy, sometimes that can just be hitting middle age hormone changes. And so, you know, for me, I don't know. It's still something I'm working through with my doctors, still, you know, trying different things, going and taking different tests, talking to different people who are experiencing some of the same symptoms I am. But what I've noticed is that things that got neglected when I was more ambitious about doing certain outdoor adventures have become a higher priority for me. And so things like writing and thinking about all the things I did in my 20s or what is it that I want want to write about? What is it that I want to make sure I write down and communicate with others? And so I've found at least that I'm able to lean more into maybe the communications side because that's something I can do sitting down. It's something that at least on a good day I do have the energy to do where going out and running five miles, it's just not gonna happen, you know? And so, like I said, there is a period of grieving that you have for the different person that you are. But once you get through that, you realize that, you know, you still get to live a good life and there's still plenty of things that you can take part in. And that question of how long is this gonna last or is it gonna last forever, I'll just say that my assumption is it could last forever. So I'm approaching life from the standpoint of this is who I am now, these are my limitations. But knowing that if I get abilities back, great. If not, I've really learned how to adjust my mindset and knowing how to make the most of my time.
Katie
I definitely don't want to put words in your mouth because your experience is different from everybody else's, including mine. But I could see this transition, at least for me, if I were going through it, being easier as the person I am now versus who I was in my early 20s. Because I feel like I've already started to, in some ways, come to terms with very minor things about getting older. I actually have an episode coming out about fishing as you get older, coming up. And a lot of that is just-- it's no longer just about go out and pound the fish as hard as you can and catch the biggest fish. A lot of it now is appreciating your surroundings and just being happy with the people you're out there with. And that wasn't my mindset as a young 20-something. So I could see if I did have to change my expectations a little bit. I think I would handle it better now than I would have as a younger person, because I've already started to make some of those changes. And I feel like a lot of people, when they start to get into their 30s or even late 20s, are just starting to have a bit of a mindset shift about what are you trying to get out of outdoor experiences? Is that something that you have felt, Or am I totally off base with that assumption?
Ashley
That's absolutely right. And when I was in college and I ran track and field, I had an injury that put me out for a year. And it really was devastating. It's still in some ways traumatic to think about that period of time and how my group of friends changed during that. There's just things when you're younger that you do base your personality off of sometimes what you're physically able to do. Like I keep talking about community but it's so central to me having a good life now. It's just being surrounded by people who are fun and think about things as challenges and opportunities rather than you know like oh you're not the person you used to be. You know like none of my friends would say anything like that. They they you know they're up for whatever, and they're happy to make it work. Even the group of women that I grouse hunt with in the fall, I can't go as far as they can, but I still go along on the trip and I do what I can. I think a big piece of it is that I have a lot more mature people around me now than maybe I did in my early 20s, and they really do help to support that mind shift.
Katie
Well, to end on maybe a positive note here, I know you do have this Boundary Waters trip coming up and we don't have to get into great detail because it obviously hasn't happened yet, but tell me what the trip is going to entail. How long are you going for? What's the planning process like? What do you hope to get out of it? What are you fishing for? All that kind of stuff.
Ashley
Yeah, it's so me and three friends going up the Gunflint Trail. So anyone who's been to the Boundary Waters in Minnesota, just really gorgeous area. And this was one of the places where I did trail work right out of college was in the Boundary Waters. I mean, it's practically Canada for anybody who's seen it. Gorgeous, though, the landscape is a lot of pines, a lot of rocks, a lot of water. And so really the goal is to go and just enjoy the scenery that's up there and do some fishing while we're at it. And yeah, towards the end of June, planning just like a four or five day trip. And thankfully, you know, our plan is to canoe in, set up camp and then do day trips out from there. You know, I think when I was younger, we did the longer trips where you would pick up camp every night and then you portage, canoe and backpack, you know, your way across these different lakes. doing kind of a more relaxed version of things by setting up a day camp and then kind of going out from there and seeing where we can fish and explore in the meantime. I'm really excited for it. The last time we did this trip there was a spruce grouse just hanging around, walking around the camp and showed up every night around dusk. And so those are the kinds of moments that you you know, you don't predict, you can't plan for, but really make for a great trip.
Katie
I would love to talk to you again after the trip to hear how it goes, because that's a place I really like to get to. I've never been to the Boundary Waters and I know I'll make it there at some point, but it's feeling more and more urgent as, you know, things change with the Boundary Waters. So I hope your trip goes as well as or better than you expect and excited to hear, you know, how things turn out for you.
Ashley
Thank you. Yeah, the great thing about the outdoors is even if it's a bad trip it makes a good story. So you know either way I'll have an update for you.
Katie
It's either a great trip and a boring story or a really bad trip but a great story. So something comes out of it. Well just to wrap up, if you want to share any sort of like social media, I know I saw you had a Substack and other things, if you'd like to share where people can find you, reach out, read your content, where can they find you?
Ashley
Yeah so Conservation Lady, I'm on Substack and also TikTok for anyone who's still on there. I have an account on Blue Sky as well. And so I also I'm a board member for the Outdoor Writers Association of America. They have a conference coming up this fall. So yeah, so find me online or you can you can meet me at the Outdoor Writers Conference.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for coming on. And I'm thankful for you to share Your experiences, I know they're probably kind of personal to you, so I just appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure a lot of other people are going through similar things. And just for all the work you do in conservation, it's really important. So I just appreciate everything you're doing out there.
Ashley
Yeah, thanks a lot. This has been really great. I hope we get a chance to talk some more, dig into some more conservation topics. It's always great to have kind of a meeting of the minds and hear about other people's adventures and passion for conservation.
Katie
For sure. Well, thank you again and I'm sure we'll talk again soon.
Ashley
Thanks.
Katie
Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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