Ep 155: The Aging Backpacker, with Shawn Larson
Shawn has been a guest on the show many times. Last time he was on, we joked about doing an episode about aging as a backpacker. He’s back today to do just that. There is relatively little fishing talk in this episode, since most of the hardship of getting old relates to getting to the fishing spot, not the fishing itself. We discuss changes he’s noticed as he has gotten older, gear considerations, injuries, recovery, preparation for the season, and much more.
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 155 with Shawn Larson on the aging backpacker. I'm going to call you out as a fraud for cracking a beer you're not going to drink.
Shawn
It's a strawberry beer.
Katie
Yeah, a beer we've been trying to get rid of for about a year now that no one wants, so it's being sacrificed because you cracked yours too early.
Shawn
Oh, well. Cheers. Take one for the team. Cheers.
Katie
Thanks for coming back for another round. Last time you were on, we had joked about doing an aging backpacker series, and here we are.
Shawn
Here we are.
Katie
I don't know how much of a series it'll be, if you'll think of new things in the future and come back, but at least for today, we were doing the aging backpacker, how to age gracefully as a backpacker. Still getting out in the woods.
Shawn
Or maybe not so gracefully.
Katie
We'll find out.
Shawn
Some age more gracefully than others, I'll say.
Katie
That's actually something I have on my list to talk about, which I was going to hit later. But maybe that would be a good place to start since you brought it up. How have you noticed your aging going compared to your peers? Not necessarily people who backpack, but just have you noticed a difference getting older, Like separating from other people your age who aren't necessarily as active?
Shawn
Yes. And actually, probably, I have actually aged probably more gracefully than most, fortunately. When I tell people that I've retired, they're like, you're too young to retire. So you asked if I could, it was okay to state my age. But yeah, I'll be turning 60 this summer. So I'm not old, but I'm getting there. But I see other people, not necessarily backpacking, but just around that are 60 or even in their 50s. And they look much older than I do, I think. But I've always looked very young. I think COVID, and this is one thing that was on my mind as a topic to discuss or talk about, was ever since COVID, I have felt that my physical health has gone downhill just because I haven't been as active.
Katie
Because of COVID?
Shawn
Because of COVID, yeah. I wasn't skiing for two years and skiing is actually what helped me stay, you know, more fit during the winter, cause I'm telemark skiing. And so it builds your leg strength really well, but I didn't ski for two years. And so I actually lost a lot of leg strength. And so this summer, I think this was part of the reason why you, your idea of, of having this, this conversation was I had to come out of a backpack trip a day early just because my knee was kind of acting up and swelled up on me, which it's never done before while backpacking. It's done it to me while skiing.
Katie
But shouldn't we say that knee was a problem because of skiing also, right?
Shawn
Yeah. The knee was a problem because I tore it up skiing 30 years ago.
Katie
It's the problem and the solution.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. True. Yeah, all of my injuries have been due to skiing. So if you're backpacking, same. Yeah. It's probably much more safe than skiing. But I have noticed, you know, I've gotten, it's become just in the last four or five years more difficult for me to stay fit. When I was younger, I didn't have to do anything to stay fit. You know, I didn't have to go to the gym. I could eat anything I wanted and didn't matter. I never put on a pound.
Katie
And what is younger in this context? Until what age?
Shawn
I would say until my late 40s.
Katie
Okay. And that's different than I think I hear a lot. And I know that you're not necessarily the average American. And I'm probably hearing stats about the average American, but I've heard a lot of like when you turn 40, I mean, I also heard the same thing about 30, which which I have not quite experienced. I did like the day I turned 30, I woke up and like rolled over and like pulled something. I was like, oh no, it's happening. But for the most part, like I feel as good now as I felt, you know, through any part of my life. Yeah. So I don't feel like 30 is it for people who are active at least, but I have heard, well, when 40 happens. Yeah. But then I see plenty of people who are over 40 who are doing just fine. And so I'm not sure how much this applies to the average person compared to the person who is active and is actually like maintaining strength and doing stuff. So yeah, I was curious to hear like when you started to notice things.
Shawn
I think for me, it's been within the last four or five years. And the other thing with COVID was every single day when I went to work, I was walking up and down six flights of stairs multiple times a day. And so I would walk about 10 steps from my bedroom to my computer and that's where I sat all day. And, and so, and that was one of the things that came to mind, as a topic of discussion was just keep moving. I think that if you just keep walking, every single day, even if it's for a mile, just stay active. Cause I have, I noticed it with my father when he became inactive that he went downhill very, very quickly. And so, and when I wasn't as active during COVID, I could feel that my physical fitness went downhill pretty quickly. And it's much more difficult when you get older just to stay fit. And I have found it much more difficult to actually maintain muscle mass and strength. And it's frustrating because I don't necessarily feel that old, but except for all the aches and pains and tweaks and my knee, my back, most of it from skiing. So yeah, be careful when you ski, I guess.
Katie
Is it possible for you to parse out how much is from age and how much is from COVID? Because you said you didn't really notice a lot of this stuff until about five years ago. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's about COVID time. So I mean, I don't know if you would be able to know this, but have you gotten the impression that it's a lot about that age for you when this started? Or if Or it was more like if COVID hadn't happened, do you think that you would have kind of maintained more of that?
Shawn
I think that I would have been better off had I not become more inactive during COVID. And not walking up and down the stairs every day for two years. And not skiing because it was a pain to try and get a reservation or whatnot. So I feel like I'd be in a better place if I had stayed active rather than having this two years where I didn't do as much. Now in the summer, you know, I was out and about a lot. But the skiing actually helped build my leg strength, which helped my knee, which I, you know, blew out. And so it's all about that. And I've had knee issues since I was in high school. So, and it was, it's the leg strength that, that corrects the patella of, of my knee that's crooked. And, and so as soon as I started telemark skiing, actually my knee problems went away. So it's the leg strength that, that was really helping, but that doesn't have to do it backpacking. But I think during the summer, the backpacking and mountain biking really helped me stay fit. So I don't know. I think that that's probably, you know, it wasn't because of COVID, but it was just that time period where I couldn't do anything. I couldn't walk up and down the stairs at work. You know, I was doing as much as I could outdoors, but it's just it wasn't quite the same.
Katie
Yeah, I've noticed kind of similar to you. I've got a lingering shoulder problem that I also notice the more I work it out, the better it is. So you think that, you know, I've got this lingering problem. if I go and lift, it's going to like tweak it more. Right. But I find that if I go a long time without lifting, it starts to hurt when I lift it, like my arm, I mean. But then when I lift, it feels totally fine. Yeah. I don't feel anything. That's also from skiing. But skiing, I agree, it's kind of the only thing that keeps me physically active in the winter.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
You know, we walk our dog every day. So I get about a mile and a half to two miles of walking around the neighborhood every day. basically every day of the year. But apart from that, in the winter, I'm not, I mean, I would go out for a hike every now and then when I can, but skiing is like most of it. And the summer, it's easy to stay active. But yeah, I think having something like that year round, like there's not a single season of the year that I'm not doing, like trying to get out and do something active over the weekend that I genuinely want to do. So yeah, it's kind of a double-edged sword because it is such a high risk of like really blowing something out. What did you do to your knee?
Shawn
I tore, none of them were complete tears, but I tore the ACL, the MCL, and tore the meniscus. So kind of a triple whammy.
Katie
Did you have a period of time after that happened that it felt like it was 100% and then it came back later? Or has it been a little bit off ever since it happened?
Shawn
It's been off. It just was uncomfortable just because it wasn't as stable. I wore a brace while I was backpacking for a couple of years, just having a heavy pack on it until I got my leg strength back up. And there again, when I was telemarketing, that built my leg strength, and then it was fine. It would get a little achy once in a while just because, but I think you made a really good point that staying active is probably one of the most important things. As soon as you become sedentary, and I've noticed it now that if I don't do something, then I start, you know, you start getting tweaks in your back and your shoulder and your, you know, your legs or whatever. but as soon as you start being more active and do it more on a regular basis, then it, you know, you know, you feel much better. It's much easier to keep it going than it is to lay off and then try to restart it.
Katie
Cause like, I don't know, I don't find it hard at all to stay active when I'm, when I'm active. You know, I have a full day, I crash at night, have a good night's sleep, wake up feeling refreshed, like do it again. But, you know, sometimes I have a week where we're traveling. I notice every year when we're traveling for like the holidays and stuff with with family and it's like great it's like nice time to relax and like eat and drink and do all these things and I come out of the day with like 2,000 steps and I'm like oh my god by the end of the week I'm like feeling it like my body is aching from not doing anything yeah and it's like really hard to come back off that week yeah because you're just like my body has forgotten how to you know move 100 percent
Shawn
like the old saying goes or the the physics objects in motion remain in motion so just don't stop moving so I I mean I think I think that's probably the most important is just keep doing, you know, you don't have to stop backpacking. I hope to keep backpacking until I'm 80 if I can do it. It's funny, I backpacked with an older gentleman. He's probably got 10 plus years on me. And we did a trip five days in the Collegiate Peaks wilderness. And we were doing a lot of off-trail bushwhacking. You know, we put in a lot of long days. And he kept up really well. I was in, you know, top shape. And so, you know, I had to, he had to make more frequent stops than I did and rest. But at the end of that trip, I said, you know, I sure hope I'm doing this when I'm your age and older, when I get to be 70 and whatnot. And he says, well, you're stronger now than I ever have been. So I have confidence that if, as long as nothing drastic happens to you, you're going to be there, but, you know, at the moment I'm kind of questioning whether I'm going to have it with the same zeal as I used to. But, so yeah, I think, what I've just in my own mind, it just becomes a little more difficult to, I mean, I'm still confident that I can, you know, put a decent number of miles on, but, maybe not as much bushwhacking, maybe slightly shorter miles. Um, and the biggest thing is that I've tried to do over the last several years is trying to get my pack weight down, which is not easy. Because there's a, there's kind of a balance between taking things out of your pack to lighten it. But then as you get older, you want more creature comforts.
Katie
Yeah. That's on my list to talk about is like, you know, how, how your gear has changed over the years.
Shawn
So, you know, I used to sleep on a little three quarter inch pad.
Katie
The orange Therm-a-Rest?
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. The orange Therm-a-Rest pads.
Katie
That's everyone's first pad. You have to like pay your dues on that thing before you can upgrade.
Shawn
And then one summer, every morning I wake up, my hip hurt, my shoulder hurt. And it's like, I got to get a thicker pad. So now I have a four inch pad. Big Agnes. And then, you know, I used to sit on rocks or logs or just sit on the ground and I just can't do it anymore with my back. So I have a nice chair. So that adds another pound. So you have to find things you can take out so you can have these creature comforts of a little thicker pad and a little bit of a chair to sit on.
Katie
Yeah. So maybe let's cover that. So I wanted to kind of start with, you know, like what has, what have you noticed changing physically, which I guess we've kind of covered some of that. But part of that is, you know, how do you adapt to the changes that you've noticed physically? And so obviously trying to lighten your pack weight, but also wanting more comforts around camp. How do you strike that balance? And what are some of the things that you have changed besides your sleeping pad and like sitting pad?
Shawn
Yeah. So just physically, I think, and I haven't noticed it too much, maybe a little bit just in the last maybe year or so. But as you age, it's common for you to lose some balance just because your muscles aren't quite as twitchy and fast reacting as they used to be. So trying to make sure that you – a lot of people use trekking poles. I don't know. I know you use trekking poles.
Katie
Yeah, trekking poles are a whole topic of their own.
Shawn
That's a whole other topic, yeah. I don't use trekking poles. And I've always had impeccable balance, and I just didn't feel that I really needed them. But I think changing, I don't do as much bushwhacking and maybe not as much rock hopping as I used to do. And I'm much more cautious. And I might not hike quite as fast as I used to. And I might take a few more breaks. But that's probably one of the biggest things is just taking a few more breaks and maybe not doing quite as many miles. Instead of doing seven miles a day, I might only do five. But the breathing is fine. You know, I think as people get much older, you have to be concerned about potential heart conditions, you know, things like that. And as people age, they tend to have more difficulty with altitude. I'm fortunate that I've never, ever had issues with altitude. I've never had altitude sickness. So I don't see that that's ever going to really be a problem for me. But for some people, it might be an issue where they might have problems being at over 10,000 feet or higher. So I'm just starting now to see it. So I'm kind of at the precipice of, yeah, I'm still learning of some limitations I may have to start putting on myself. But I think the weight is probably the biggest thing is, you know, just leave a few things at home or not get too crazy with the food and make my food. because your food is usually some of that heavier items that you're going to carry.
Katie
What about just general aches and pains? Is that something you've noticed a lot more of?
Shawn
Yeah, definitely. You're not as limber, so I'll get up in the morning. I'll have to go out in the grass and the field, which is kind of a nice time in the morning when it's quiet, and do some stretching just to get the kinks out from the previous day carrying a heavy pack. So yeah, I can't just throw the pack on and go for another six, eight miles. So doing some stretching before and after, you know, when you get to camp and take your pack off, do some stretching. So I do notice that, you know, you get cramped in your legs or, you know, things like that a bit more now than I used to.
Katie
So that's something I've even noticed. I know I said that like I didn't really notice anything when I turned 30. And for the most part, I haven't. Like I, any given minute of the day, I feel as good as I ever have. But the one thing I have noticed is when I wake up in the morning, I feel like I used to just kind of like come out of bed feeling the same way. Like I feel at 8 a.m. the same way I feel at 2 p.m. the same way I feel at 8 p.m. And now I feel great by about an hour after I've woken up. But for the first like maybe 15, 20 minutes that I'm out of bed, I'm like I just feel tight. And I don't have to like do anything specific. I don't have to stretch or go get moving right away. I just kind of have to be up out of bed and walking around. Like by the time I've made breakfast and sat down and eaten it, I feel fine. But that's something I hadn't noticed before. And maybe I'm just more in tune with my body. I mean, like, I don't know. But that's something I've noticed in the past couple of years. It's like, oh, when I wake up, I need a couple of minutes for my body to kind of like accept that we are up and out of bed now and it's time to loosen up a little bit.
Shawn
Yeah, definitely. I definitely have started feeling that a bit more when you get up in the morning, especially if you put on, you know, it's early in the backpack season. You got your first long trip. You do five miles, you get up the next morning, it's like, oh, man, I'm feeling my legs this morning. So, yeah, you just don't recover quite as quickly and easily as you used to.
Katie
What do you do for recovery, apart from just like stretching on a trip, but let's say you get back from a trip and you've kind of like, you know, gone at it for a couple of days. What does recovery look like? How long does it typically take for you to feel like that's, you know, moved on? And are you doing anything besides stretching or just like walking or anything like that to?
Shawn
Well, no, not really. I think just continuing to walk, not necessarily with the pack on, but just the next day, you know, you feel like, oh, I need to give my body a rest. But there again, if you're not moving, you're just seizing up. So I think just getting out and taking a mile or two walk on an easy trail, you know, the bike path or, you know, whatever, that's not crazy. Just to loosen your muscles up because the more you just sit stationary, the tighter you get.
Katie
Yeah, I've definitely noticed that as well. Like getting back in the car, like if we have a long drive after backpacking or something, it's like, oh my God.
Shawn
Yes.
Katie
Save for four hours with your legs, you know, not crossed, but folded.
Shawn
Bent.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, bent. And they just lock up in that position. Then you go to straighten them out and you're like, oh, my God. They've just frozen.
Shawn
You try and get out and it's like you look like a human question mark for about five minutes.
Katie
Yeah. Have you ever used any kind of – I've got one back here, this like Theragun type thing. Have you done that or like foam rolling or anything like that?
Shawn
I don't use it so much in the summertime, but in the wintertime skiing, that goes in the ski bag and the roller go in the ski bag for sure. and I do find that my the IT band gets really really tight on the outside of my my my legs and the roller in that that Theragun are really good for that
Katie
so you say you have noticed a difference yeah I I didn't ever tell if I'm getting like a placebo effect of like this just feels nice or like it's actually doing something but I'm convinced it does something
Shawn
yeah it definitely works. Yeah. And I've been, I've been doing some physical therapy for my knee this past couple of months or so. And that was one of the things that he wanted me to do because I had really tight adductors and IT band. And so he wants me to use the foam roller and just, you know, half of my exercises are stretching. So, and it's mainly just because of my knee and it's not just building the leg strength, but building all the muscles around your core, your, you know, all the different muscles in your legs. Uh, but your core is really important for, especially your lower back. So, yeah, doing lots of, planks and wall sits and things that are low impact, but, can help you strengthen.
Katie
Yeah. One thing I've learned in recent years that has kind of helped me with some like nagging things I have is that it's not always in the joint, the problem is not always in the joint you're feeling it in. And I know knees are one of those. And I feel like it's happened. I've gotten it in my arms too, because sometimes my wrist will be really sore. And I haven't like actually hurt my wrist. But, you know, if something is tight up in your hip, you can feel it elsewhere. If your ankles are tight, your knee can feel it. And, you know, I used to think, oh, my knee hurts. Something's wrong with my knee. And, you know, I've since come to learn that like when my knee's hurting, it's often not my knee that it's, I mean, The knee only goes one way. You know, it's not all around like a socket, whereas your ankle can kind of like spin a lot more. So there's a lot more things going on that will appear in something like a knee. And it's often not the actual knee that's the problem. And learning that has really helped because now it's like, oh, my knee hurts. I can stretch a whole bunch of other different things. And now my knee feels better.
Shawn
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, because they're all connected. And that was the muscles that are pulling on my patella and creating the rubbing on the outside of my leg and my knee. It's because that muscle is so tight. So you loosen that muscle up and stretch it and the knee pain goes away. And I did notice that when I would ski that I'd get this weird tick in my knee that was just, it would click. Yeah. And I would do a certain stretch where I stretch my hip out and it would just go away.
Katie
Yeah. I've got some clicking as well.
Shawn
Yeah. So it is, you know, yoga. I don't, I haven't, I've gone to yoga like once in my life, but everyone keeps telling me as you age, you need to go to Pilates. You need to go to yoga. You need to stay flexible. You need to keep moving. So I think that is super important.
Katie
Yeah. I guess one nice thing about backpacking, and we haven't actually talked about fishing at all, because this is more about the getting to where you want to fish than it is the actual fishing. But luckily for us, both of these things, I feel like as far as physical activity goes, there are things that you can do pretty late into life. You know, you're not going to be doing as crazy of a hike at 80. But for the most part, like walking and fishing are two things that you can do almost until the day you die compared to a lot of other things. Like skiing is going to get harder, you know, like these crazy, crazy backcountry adventures are going to get harder. But, you know, walking a couple of miles in and fishing, I, like you said, barring some sort of tragic accident, I identify as somebody who's going to be doing that until like the day they keel over dead.
Shawn
Just don't ever blow your knee out.
Katie
Oh, I blew my MCL out two years ago.
Shawn
Okay, well.
Katie
That's why I asked you if you noticed it flare back up because I, I mean, I remember what knee it happened to. If I didn't remember what knee it happened to, I would not be able to tell you what knee it happened to. Really? It is 100% gone. And I remember at the time, it was one of the most painful things I'd ever gone through. And I was on the phone with my friend. And she was like, oh, I blew up my MCL a couple years ago. And she's like, I don't even feel it now. And I was like, I can't even imagine not feeling this pain. Like this is like part of my identity now, how much this hurts. And yeah.
Shawn
Now you can't even tell.
Katie
I can't even tell which it happened to.
Shawn
I think if I hadn't torn my meniscus, it probably wouldn't be so bad because now it's bone on bone. And so the meniscus tear is probably the worst. You know, you can fix an ACL or an MCL, but the meniscus, there's really not much you can do. And at some point, I mean, I do have some moderate arthritis that's flared up in my knees. So, but it's not, I mean, it's not, so far it hasn't been debilitating, but ever since I took off those two years of skiing, it started giving me problems. And I think it's just because I lost, and it's amazing because I only lost the strength in one leg, which is my bad. So that tells me how much I'm actually favoring that knee just subconsciously. So I have to think about, you know, strengthening it and actually standing on that leg and not the other one. So, yeah, it definitely has flared up. But there, you know, there was a period of time where it didn't really bother me other than, you know, that meniscus and the fact that it just, you know, was kind of irritated and the muscles around it are trying to compensate for that weakness in the knee. And so you're using muscles that you might ordinarily not think you're using because your body is obviously trying to compensate for, you know, that weakness in the knee that's just inherently there from that injury.
Katie
Yeah. So I was wondering if you'd had a period of time, and it sounds like you did have a little bit of time that it was not so bad, but I'm just trying to gauge, you know, will this come back to haunt me? Or did I do it early enough in life that I may have slid through and been okay?
Shawn
I think with just an MCL, I'm guessing you're okay because my MCL, it doesn't really bug me that much. Fingers crossed. It's the meniscus, I think, that has given me the worst problem. And just I have structurally bad knees.
Katie
Yeah, you said you already had kind of shaky knees.
Shawn
Yeah, the kneecap isn't on your knee straight. It's off to one side, which is fairly common. And they said, well, we can do one, two things. either cut so that it releases it, which is not a good option, or you build your leg strength up to naturally just pull it back to center instead of being off center. That one. I would choose that one. Yeah, exactly.
Katie
Have you noticed anything mentally different about backpacking when you're older? And I'll give you an example because I've noticed something in myself is, and I think most people go through this, even if they don't backpack. I used to feel like I was invincible. I did a lot of stupid stuff as a young person that I still do some stupid stuff, but it's like a more calculated stupid than it was before. And now I think about my own mortality a lot more now and think about like, wow, that would be a really, really bad situation if this happened and I'm not going to do that. Whereas before it was like, I'll see what happens and then I'll figure it out. And I've noticed that in the last maybe five to eight years, I've really, really like changed mentally around taking stupid risks. Not that I'm living in a bubble, but I think a lot more about bad decisions now before I do them. And I'm wondering, so that's an example, but if there's anything else kind of like psychologically or mentally that's changed as you've gotten older, I'm curious.
Shawn
I definitely in the last five to eight years, that was another thing that was on my mind was I've just gotten a bit more, I guess, conscious about what I am doing and more conservative. where I won't take, especially when I'm solo. And even when I was in my late 20s, early 30s and doing a ton of solo backpacking, I would take calculated risks, not crazy risks. I mean, I'm not doing rock climbing without ropes or anything like that. But if I'm traveling off trail, I might not take a particular route across a boulder field or a short boulder field or something just because or on some sketchy little cliffy area and be more conservative about my route finding just because maybe I'm not quite as stable as I used to be. And so, yeah, I do feel like I am being a bit more conservative, not necessarily preventing myself from going off trail because I love bushwhacking and just find a lake somewhere and just go and that I'd prefer going to a lake where there isn't a trail. So I still do it, but I'm definitely a bit more conservative with my route finding. And it's like, I don't know if I want to take that particular route. And so, you know, mentally I'm thinking more about the consequences of, okay, if something happens, you know, if I do lose my footing.
Katie
You're not just going to figure it out as you fall off a cliff.
Shawn
Right, exactly. You hear about, you know, in Rocky Mountain National Park, some of the rangers, you know, they go out by themselves and, you know, they're fairly young and they trip and they fall and they hit their head and that's it. They're done. Yeah. And there's nothing you can do. So, you know, those kind of things. I think I tell myself I think more about self-preservation now than I used to.
Katie
Yeah. Same. Lightning was something I used to mess with a lot more than I did now, than I do now. I feel like there was a time where I was like, what are the odds that I'll get struck by lighting? And then I had one too many experiences of like hair standing up on end.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
And I was like, I should stop doing this. I really don't want to die.
Shawn
Don't put yourself in that position. It's kind of hard not to when you're backpacking though in Colorado.
Katie
I mean, there are times, again, like this isn't saying that I'm never in a risky situation. But like you said, you know, planning a route. Before I feel like I would look at something and be like, I'll just do it. I'll just do that. I'm in shape. Yeah. And now it's like, I could just take this slightly longer way. I don't need to get there five minutes earlier. I will take this way that is less terrifying and less risky. And I feel like there was a time in my life where I would just take the shortest, easiest, most direct.
Shawn
I'm going to go straight up the side of this hill. Right. Yeah. Or down it. Yeah. No, I find myself definitely being a bit more conservative and probably making wiser decisions and choices in the backcountry. I don't think I'm – I mean, I do – when you age, your mental capacity declines. There's just – there's no two ways around it that it's going to happen. It's just a matter of when.
Katie
In what sense?
Shawn
People's memory, your short-term memory isn't quite as good. You just don't have the mental capacity maybe that you used to. I don't really – I mean, my memory is not as good as it used to be, But I think when I'm in the backcountry, I almost feel like I'm more in tune.
Katie
There's less to juggle.
Shawn
Yeah, there's fewer distractions. There's less going on. The hardest thing I have is reading my dang map because I can't see. Eyesight is the biggest thing. It's like, okay, my arm's not long enough anymore. I can't see my map.
Katie
You can set the map over there and take a couple steps back.
Shawn
Yeah, so now I've had to put my reading glasses inside the pack. So that's one more piece of weight that I didn't used to have to carry.
Katie
Right. What about dexterity? I don't think of dexterity as something that goes until you're a little older, but I'm not positive. Like tying a fly on, something like that. Have you noticed anything like that?
Shawn
I haven't noticed. I mean, you do kind of get a little bit shaky, you know, as you age. And I have noticed that in myself. And I notice it in particular when I'm trying to tie a fly on. And, you know, I got the bifocal sunglasses now so I can actually see to tie the fly on. So it's not, you know, it's not anything right now that I can't, it's not impeding any of my activities at this point. But at some point, you know, maybe by the time I hit 70, maybe it will. So, but no, not too bad at this point. TBD on that one. Yeah, TBD on that one.
Katie
Have you noticed anything mentally apart from, you know, your ability to do things, like your mindset around stuff? Has that changed at all? Have you noticed anything, you know, a young person's perspective on like why you're doing this or anything like that?
Shawn
I think now maybe I just slow down a bit more and just appreciate, you know, my surroundings. And because I was always pretty gung ho. It's like, okay, let's go. Let's, you know, we got six miles to get to this lake. Let's go, you know, and don't stop. I typically wouldn't make many stops at all. Once I get going, I just go. I would tend to get, you know, my legs would seize up if I actually stopped. So, but I think just, you know, appreciating where you're at and your surroundings and, and just, just kind of taking it in. Listen, you know, watching the wildlife. I still am gung-ho to go fish. I can't get that out of my system, and I probably never will.
Katie
I think there's a difference between being excited to do something and being so focused on forward progress that you kind of lose sight of everything else that's going on. There's a fine line there. I'm not really sure if a line can be drawn, but I feel like there's a distinction there.
Shawn
I think you're right. Stop, turn around, and just look at what's going on along the trail. Stop and get a drink of water and just sit and enjoy the creek for five minutes.
Katie
I wonder how much of this is getting older and how much of it is having done something so many times. I've noticed this with fishing specifically, not even backpacking, but there was a time where if I was fishing from start to finish, if I don't have a line in the water, I'm getting really antsy. Not that I still don't, you know, if people are catching fish around me, I'm going to want to pick up a rod and like take some casts. But I also now am like pretty, like I'm pretty content sitting on shore and like drinking a beer and watching my friends fish. And, you know, I, at some point we'll, you know, the call will like drag me back to the river to cast again. But I'm like also happy just being there. And there was a time where that wasn't the case. But I don't, I don't necessarily think that's me getting older. I think that's, I've spent so much time fishing that I feel like I'm not, I haven't, I'm not missing out on something. because I'm like, I've got my whole life to do this. I've been doing it my whole life. I feel like I can spare this 15 minutes to sit here and enjoy the sunrise or whatever it is.
Shawn
I'm still a little high strung on that point, to be honest. Well, you know, Paul, when he and I have gone backpacking a few times, he will, after he catches a nice fish, he'll just sit and he'll take out his journal and write in his journal and just sit and enjoy the moment. And I want to get my line right back in the water.
Katie
Yeah, I think I'm with Paul. It's after I've gotten something, like after I've caught a nice fish, I can pause for a long time. And if I haven't caught one, I'm usually like kind of itching to get out there. Or if we've just arrived at a river, like, oh my God, I'm just dying to get my line in the water. Right. But if I catch a couple fish or something that's particularly big or particularly pretty, I'm like, you know, I'm good. Like I could stop fishing right now and I'd be okay. So I think I'm with Paul.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
So maybe that's not an age thing. Maybe that's just a personality thing.
Shawn
Yeah, I think it's probably just a personality. I'm kind of that focused a lot of times on when I see a target, I'm after it.
Katie
A target acquired.
Shawn
Yeah, exactly. Although I was fishing this past weekend or actually last week on the Arkansas. And it was just a beautiful day, you know, bluebird. And I was the only one on the water. And I was like, I just want to catch one fish. That's all I want. I caught that one fish. I was like, all right, I'm good.
Katie
I thought you were going to say that I wanted to catch another.
Shawn
I was like, if I catch two, great. But I just wanted one. I'm good now. I was there by myself. Had nobody else's beautiful day. And it was just kind of nice to just be on the water.
Katie
Maybe the overarching theme here across all of this is like, maybe it's easier to be satisfied as an older person. I don't mean like as an old person, but just like as you get older, I feel like the bar for satisfaction goes down and it kind of culminates in what you're talking about, where it's like, slow down, look around, appreciate your surroundings. Like as an 18 year old, I was like, I don't care.
Shawn
I just want to like hard charge ahead.
Katie
And, you know, if I don't get there this fast or whatever, I'm not happy. And it's gotten a lot more toward like, I'm just happy to be out here. And the bar for making me happy has kind of gone down.
Shawn
I think as you, I mean, if you go on so many trips and it just becomes, you know, it's not so new of an experience. And you can just kind of sit back and this is just kind of nice just to hang out here. I'm just glad to be alive. I'm glad to be right. I'm just glad to be here because tomorrow is never guaranteed.
Katie
Well, and like you said, if you do it a lot, it's almost like when you first start, let's say you've just started fishing, everything's new and exciting. So the only thing that's really going to capture your attention is like, or it's not the only thing that's going to capture your attention. It's that even like learning the knots and stuff, you know, that's kind of captivating. And like the first time you reel in a fish, that's captivating. When you've reeled in a thousand fish, it's almost like you need to start looking elsewhere for something that is now new and exciting. And that might be like, wow, I'm going to look at this vista. I'm going to sit and have an overlook at this landscape because I never took the time to look at that before. So now this is what's new because I never stopped to actually do that before. Or looking at flowers, wildflowers or something that you just never bothered to slow down and look at. And so all this stuff that was new and exciting is now kind of like, I've seen a brook trout a million times, but I've never seen this flower before. So I'm going to really focus in on that now.
Shawn
One thing I do enjoy is getting up early in the morning, right when the sun comes up. That's my favorite part of the day. And it's funny because, I mean, a lot of people know how passionate I am about fishing. And they're like, you're probably up at the crack of dawn out there fishing. I was like, you know what? I'm really not. I get up. I enjoy the sunrise. You know, I like watching the fish cruise around the lake, but I'm not actually fishing. Yeah. I don't fish the ground on. I take photographs of, you know, wildflowers in the stream and, you know, wildlife or whatever, and just watch the sun come up. That's my favorite part. That's my favorite time of the day. Yeah. And that's kind of my time just to kind of absorb the environment that I'm in and my surroundings.
Katie
Before everyone's gotten up, things are.
Shawn
Yeah. Before everyone's gotten up, it's quiet. You don't have the chaos going on. And it's just, that's kind of my time of the day.
Katie
You know who is up though? Those damn pine squirrels. They're always up, right?
Shawn
It's true.
Katie
The moment that sun.
Shawn
And the pikas, they're up chirping.
Katie
Yeah.
Shawn
And the marmots.
Katie
Yeah, the marmots will get you up.
Shawn
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I have heard on a couple of occasions of instances where someone is very passionate, like you and I are, about backpacking and fly fishing. And as they get older, you know, they're probably in their, well, I think probably in late 60s or 70s, early 70s maybe, where they go on a trip and just decide they're done. And then they just don't, they don't go backpacking anymore. I've heard a couple of instances where that has happened.
Katie
Have they been able to figure out why?
Shawn
No.
Katie
And does it actually happen? They have an actual thought of, I don't want to do this anyway. It's not just that they go out and they just don't go out anymore. It's that they actually have an active thought.
Shawn
Yeah. I think this is it. Yeah. I'm done.
Katie
Huh.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
And not for any sort of physical, like this is too hard?
Shawn
No. No. In fact, it was a friend of mine, his father-in-law said he and I were cut from the same cloth. He said one day he went up, set up camp and decided, you know what? I just want to go home. I thought that's very strange because I don't think I would ever do that.
Katie
I can't picture myself having that feeling.
Shawn
I can't either because that's my home.
Katie
Yeah. The closest I feel to that is after a long trip where things are not going well, I'm like, oh man, I cannot wait to sleep in my own bed tonight. But when I get home, by the next day, I'm like, all right, I'm ready again. I needed one night to just take a shower and sleep in my own bed. And then if I've ever left early, I always regret it. I always come back and I'm like, damn, what did I do? I could still be out there, you know, that kind of feeling. So, yeah, I can't ever imagine having that feeling if I'm done.
Shawn
I can't either. I can't either. But, I mean, I could see, you know, as you do, like you said, as you do things for so long, your perspective of that activity changes. And so, who knows? I mean, I can't see myself doing it, but.
Katie
I guess we'll find out. I guess we'll find out.
Shawn
Maybe in 10, 15 years.
Katie
Yeah, you said that this has been like 70-ish?
Shawn
Yeah, maybe.
Katie
Most of them have all been
Shawn
Older, yeah
Katie
That age Huh Yeah, I can't I can't imagine that
Shawn
I can't either I just hope I'm still able to move at 70
Katie
Yeah, I hope still have the choice To decide if I want to go or not
Shawn
Like they say It's not the age It's the miles I got a lot of miles on my body So Yeah, I think taking care of your body is And you don't do that when you're younger Because you think As you said earlier You think you're invincible
Katie
And you don't have And there's no consequences for not doing it
Shawn
Yeah You just kind of shrug it off Eh, okay I got a little, you know, tweak it'll be fine. You can power through it. But when you get older, it's not so easy to power through it because it just keeps coming back.
Katie
Yeah. I did mention that like, I feel as good now as I ever have, but I, I'm also working harder at that than I have before. So it's like, yeah, you know, I do legit feel better now than I think I did in my early twenties, but in my early 20s, I was trashing my body and not taking care of it in any way. And now I feel better than I did then, but I'm putting a lot of, like I stretch every day. I walk every day. I lift a couple of times a week. I try to like get some vigorous exercise. And I didn't do, I didn't like make an effort to do those things as a younger person.
Shawn
I never had to do that when I was younger. I could eat whatever I want. I never had to exercise. I could go forever and now I just can't do it. I have to, I have to keep moving. Um, and I didn't, I mean, I've always been super active and I did, it didn't, it didn't hit me until COVID when I was forced to not be active. You know, I had to sit at home all day, but I got out every chance I got or every chance I had, but it still was, was not enough. So, you know, if you're still passionate about backpacking, I think there's a saying, and I don't know exactly what it is, but I've heard it said before that, let me see if I can get this right. I didn't quit backpacking because I got old. I got old because I quit backpacking. And maybe you've heard that before.
Katie
I haven't heard that specific thing, but I very much see where it's coming from.
Shawn
Yeah. So, I mean, if you're still passionate about that activity, don't let your age, because I know other people that as they age, I think age is as much in your head as it is your physical age. It's very mental. So I don't consider myself 60. When I think about turning 60, I'm like, I'm not turning 60. I went and saw my doctor for my back and she's like, wait a minute, you're turning 60 this summer? She's like, you don't look a day over 48. I was like, thanks. So I think it is very much a mental thing. And if you just keep moving and don't think about getting old yeah you're probably just going to start rebelling against you but you know you just have to you just have to modify and just keep going
Katie
yeah well this comes back to the first thing we started on which is like you compared to other people your age who aren't necessarily as active and I feel like there if you watch like older movies or see people from like older advertisements or anything like that sometimes you see somebody who's meant to be like 40 or 50. And you're like, that person looks like they're 70. And it's like today, I feel like I see plenty of people who are in their 60s and 70s that I would peg as being 50. Yeah. Because they have just like stayed active. So the range of what people can be, like 60 is not really that indicative.
Shawn
60 is a new 50.
Katie
Yeah. I mean, someone could be 60 and could be barely hanging on and somebody could be 60 and like running marathons. Yeah. And it's, yeah, I feel like age definitely comes into play, but it is in some ways just a number, you know, to some extent. Obviously, there's some things you can't really stop, but I feel like now there's been, I feel like there's been a push in recent times of like, no, you can stay active. Like maintain your muscle mass, maintain your activity levels, and like you can extend youth a lot later than previously thought.
Shawn
And it just is more difficult. It takes me way, way longer to kind of get my fitness level back to where I want it to be than it used to.
Katie
Yeah, so what does that look like now? So like summer's coming and you've got a big backpacking trip coming up. What are you doing in advance to get ready for that?
Shawn
Lots of day hikes without necessarily having a pack on, getting to the gym. I think cycling is probably one of the best things. It's great for your cardio. It builds muscle strength without being hard on your body because it's very low impact. So I personally am going to start going to a cycling class and doing Pilates just to stay limber and start building my leg strength again. Yeah. And lower risk than skiing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did quite a bit of skiing and I actually did much better this season than I have in the last two. or three. My knee didn't swell up a single time this past ski season, knock on wood, so far. It's not over yet, but in the last three seasons, it's, you know, if I ski more than two days in a row, and that's how I've been managing it, is I haven't gone three days in a row. I'll do a day, skip a day, or run, you know, ski like four or five runs, groomers, no bumps, and then take the rest of the day off and then ski a third day. So it's just managing, you know, not overdoing it. Because once you get past that threshold where you've overdone it, it's really hard to back off from that.
Katie
Yeah. You could either take a rest day or you could be forced to take like five rest days.
Shawn
Exactly. Because you just do not recover the way you used to.
Katie
So. I've noticed that too, probably not to the same extent, but like we talked about, in my early twenties, rest days weren't a thing. I didn't even consider having to take a slower day. And now it's like, oh, if I'm going to be skiing on this day, I should probably, you know, schedule this next thing for a couple of days later so I can make sure I'm like fully back to myself.
Shawn
No, we would ski nine days in a row. And I just, I cannot do that anymore. I just can't, unfortunately. So, but I think it's just, you know, knowing how, knowing what your limitations are going to become as you get older, but don't stop doing what you're doing just because you're getting older. I think that's probably the worst thing you could do. Um, because as soon as you become, you know, sedentary, then that's it. That's it. You just can't, it becomes more and more difficult to, to build that, that stamina back. So, I probably overdid myself this summer because I did a trip, come back for a day, leave for another trip, come back for a day or two, leave for another trip. And by the end of the summer, I was literally exhausted. So this summer, I'm going to try and not do so many back-to-backs because it was exhausting.
Katie
I wonder if just being more in tune with your body too as you get older, which I don't think that's a necessary thing of getting older. I think some people wouldn't and some people would. But I didn't need to be in tune with my body in my 20s because I could do whatever I wanted to it and it would be fine. And now like I – a little bit less with the exercise and more with eating. We haven't really talked about food yet, but I used to eat whatever I wanted and no ill side effects. And now I make a very conscious effort to eat healthy. And I feel like I notice the effects when I don't. Like it's no longer like I don't eat this food because I shouldn't. It's I should – I'm not going to eat this food because I'm going to feel like crap if I do. In some ways, that's really great because now it's like I don't really have to try to eat well. I feel like I naturally eat well because I'm thinking about how it's going to make me feel afterward. And I notice that stuff instead of just being like, ah, I don't know. I feel bad, but I don't know why. But has food changed for you at all?
Shawn
My metabolism definitely is not what it used to be. I've always had a super ridiculously high metabolism. I mean, I could eat literally anything I want. I had to eat to actually keep weight on because I was just so active and I could eat anything I wanted. It didn't matter. I had my cholesterol check when I was, I must have been in my late 20s. And the nurse said, your cholesterol is too low. You need to drink more beer and eat more pizza. I was like, okay.
Katie
Oh, no.
Shawn
Because it was, I mean, it was really low. But that is not a problem anymore. It's just every five years, it seems, it just kind of keeps creeping up a little bit. So, and I think that's just, you know, natural as you age, your, your body starts not, not processing, I guess, as much or as well as it used to. And so your cholesterol tends to go up, your blood pressure tends to go up. Fortunately, I have, you know, stable blood pressure and, but my cholesterol just is creeping up. So yeah, it just, it just becomes more challenging because your, your metabolism is going to slow down as you age. So, but I don't feel like I have to eat as much, but I still feel like I'm nourished, but I don't need to eat an entire 16 inch pizza.
Katie
I don't know if anyone needs to do that. Has that helped coming back to the backpacking, the gear and stuff like that? We kind of skipped over that so we can come back to it. Do you have to carry less food when you backpack?
Shawn
I mean, I always, I never ate a ton of food while backpacking. I would supplement with a fish, you know, to have some protein. But I definitely probably eat smaller portions now than I used to. I don't know how much that's going to equate to in, you know, fewer pounds of my food weight. But it probably makes a slight difference. You know, it depends on whether you, I mean, if you're eating freeze-dried meals, the portions are what they are. Yeah, it weighs a bit. Unless you take two. But I have seen people take two of those just because they're like, oh, that's not enough. Or they'll eat a whole two-person serving by themselves. But, you know, I'm fine splitting it. And sometimes, you know, some of them are big enough that even between the two of us, we can barely finish it. So I definitely feel like my – but when you're backpacking at altitude, I mean, your body goes to a different – you know, it's not idling. It's you're running at a much higher pace, even when you're sleeping, your heart rate's up to 70 instead of 60 or in the 50s or what have you. And so, you know, you're just burning calories as you sleep, just trying to stay warm.
Katie
It's weird, though, because I feel like, at least for me, appetite is all over the place in my backpack. I could have one day where I'm like trying to choke down some food because I know I need it. Yeah. And then the next day I'm like ravenous. Yeah. And it's not a consistent thing. I bring enough food every day to get all my calories. But some of those days I am literally forcing myself to eat because I don't want it, but I have to eat it.
Shawn
Altitude does have an impact on appetite for sure, just naturally. And I think for some people it's more pronounced than others. But higher altitudes definitely tend to lower your appetite anyway. And it's a great weight loss program.
Katie
I'm not trying to lose weight, so I need to eat those calories.
Shawn
Yeah, usually on a negative caloric balance when you're backpacking for sure. Yeah. You can't eat enough to replace the calories that you're burning while you're carrying a 40, 50 pound pack. It's just you can't do it, especially when you're eating, you know, mountain house or whatever meals. They're full of salt.
Katie
What other gear considerations? You mentioned sleeping pad and sitting pad. Is there anything else that you've noticed like either you've started leaving behind because it was too heavy or that you've opted to instead bring the more luxurious version because the weight is worth the comfort you're getting when you're in camp?
Shawn
Pillow.
Katie
What about the pillow? You didn't bring one before and now you do? Yeah. Or you brought a nice pillow?
Shawn
I would just roll up my jacket.
Katie
Yeah.
Shawn
But now I actually have an air pillow with a little memory, thin memory foam on it. and I actually have to carry two pillows because I need one to go between my knees.
Katie
There we go. That's the token older person.
Shawn
For my lower back. I have to have a, and actually I forgot it one time. We went on a backpack trip and it wasn't a particularly, I mean, it was, I don't know, we were five miles in, but it wasn't a particularly difficult pack in. And I woke up in the morning. I was like, man, my back is just killing me. I was like, we didn't do anything difficult. I didn't tweak it. And I woke up and I was like, wait a minute, I didn't have my knee pillow. So I just, I took, I didn't sleep with one because I'd forgotten it. And that was what made my back hurt. So I had to wad up a jacket and stick it between my knees. And then my back was fine the rest of the trip.
Katie
So that's what I was going to ask next is I, because I also use an inflatable pillow. And I also used to shove whatever puffy jacket or whatever into my stuff sack and use that as a pillow. And I decided that was not working. But I feel like – because I also will sleep with a knee pillow at home. But I would not expect myself to need an actual separate pillow for my knees backpacking. I feel like I would be okay with just a puffy and a stuff sack for that purpose. Because it's much less about how exactly does it feel and more about just getting your knees into the right position. So is there a reason that you bring a second pillow for that instead of just using stuff?
Shawn
Because it's an air pillow, I can control – Because if it's too flat, it's not effective. And so I can get it just the right thickness to where it's got my knees at the point where it's taking the pressure off my lower back. I mean, I made it work that one time, but it wasn't great because the thing kept coming undone and was flat and would move around. So you could probably in a pinch get away with just the puffy and the stuff sack. But I mean, the pillow doesn't weigh very much, to be honest. So it's, you know, four ounces, three ounces. I'm not one to count ounces. My pack, I can't seem to ever get it below, you know, 48 or 50 pounds, no matter what I do. Whether I go for two days or five days, that always weighs the same.
Katie
Yeah, mine does too. Mine's a slightly lower weight. Mine's between like 35 and 40. Yeah. But yeah, mine's always in that window.
Shawn
I don't know. I don't understand how I can go for two days and still my pack weighs 50 pounds. It's like, oh, we're only going for a weekend. Let's put in some more stuff.
Katie
Yeah, I think that might be what it is. It's like, oh, I'm carrying less food. Let's bring the luxurious items. Yeah. When it's a longer trip, I'm like, I can't afford to bring a second whatever because I don't have any room left. The food's taking up all that space.
Shawn
Yeah, yeah. I can only take three pair of socks and not five.
Katie
Yeah. Any other pieces of gear that you can think of?
Shawn
No, the pillow is probably the biggest thing. I do find that I've always run hot, so I don't really have a problem staying warm and I sleep warm. But I have noticed that I definitely sleep with a little hat on now. And I don't seem to tolerate the cold early in the morning or even in the wintertime when I'm skiing. I don't tolerate the cold quite as much as I used to, but I think that's kind of common as you age. your circulation tends to not be quite so, so good. And again, you know, it's, it's all based on your physiology and different people are different, have different, you know, needs for circulation or have different circulation issues or what have you. But, but I, I do feel like I don't tolerate the cold quite as well, but I'm still a nice warm sleeper, thankfully. So, but no, I mean, I haven't had to make major modifications to my gear. Fortunately, the pad and the chair are the two things that just, you know, I've had people say, well, just leave your chair behind. It's like, nope, I will be crippled if I don't have that chair. It's amazing when I, when I travel and I'm sleeping in different beds. If that bed is too soft, I will wake up in the morning and I literally can hardly stand, stand up straight first thing in the morning. Yeah. And my back is, is hypersensitive to, to just changes. You know, if I sit in someone's car where the seat's not quite the same, puts my back in a different position. Um, I, I can feel it pretty quickly. So, and actually, fortunately a sleeping pad is great. I sleep so well on my sleeping pad when I'm backpacking. I have no problems.
Katie
I might need to get your sleeping pad. Cause I, I like mine. It's above. But even that, I notice that I often wake up with like some hip pain in the middle of the night. And I'm not sure if I need a thicker pad or if I need to start doing something like the knee thing. Yeah. Because like I said, I do that at home. I do the pillow between the knees sometimes.
Shawn
Yeah. I definitely felt my hips and my shoulders when I had that really thin three quarter inch pad. But when I got the three or three and a half inch, I use a big Agnes, but there's Exped and, you know, Therm-a-Rest has them now too. But, that was a game changer. When I, when I started sleeping on that, I was like, oh yeah. Okay. I just extended my backpacking for another 20 years.
Katie
Yeah. That might be the next thing that I have to like upgrade again for comfort. Yeah. This isn't a, an aging thing necessarily, but I was just thinking about it because you mentioned like when you're sleeping in a different bed or something, I'm just curious if you've experienced this. When you sleep in a new bed, like at a hotel or stay in someone's house do you have trouble sleeping the first night and this is a this is a known thing I i looked it up because when I arrive at a hotel or even somebody's house I'm like it's not like oh I'm scared of where I am it's like a relative's house or something the first night I'm there I really struggle to fall asleep and stay asleep but then the next after that I kind of settle in and I i looked it up and people have experienced this where it's like the first night it's like your body's almost staying a little bit more on high alert because you're in unfamiliar location, quote unquote unfamiliar. Do you experience that?
Shawn
On occasion. I think it depends on how tired I am. But I do find that the first night, I will wake up multiple times and not wake up and then can't go back to sleep, but I'll notice myself waking up multiple times during the night. And sometimes you wake up and it's like, where am I? For just a split second. It's like, wait a minute, which direction is the bathroom? So, I mean, I have done that where I've woken up and kind of forgot where I was for just a split second. It's like, wait a minute. Oh, okay. Now I know where I'm at. Yeah. So, but yeah, I do feel like the first night I don't sleep maybe quite as well. And then once you, like you said, once you settle in, then it's fine. But yeah, sometimes I will wake up multiple times at first night.
Katie
Yeah. And for me, this is backpacking, car camping, stay in a hotel. Oh, really? Wherever it is. And sometimes it's actually not as bad camping as it is in a bed. Although I hallucinate a lot when I camp. Oh, really? Yeah. Almost every time. Really? Yeah. When I'm falling asleep, I always think that there's somebody outside the tent shining a light into the tent. And I don't know if this is because that happened to me the first time I went backpacking. Oh, really? Yeah. The first time I went, I went by myself. And that first night, there was a group of people in my area and they had lost someone in their group. And they were looking for them. So I had gone to bed and I woke up to someone shining a light in my tent thinking that I might be their lost person, I guess. And, you know, it was scary for a second before I realized that they were just looking for somebody who wasn't me. Because there was a split second of like, I'm about to die.
Shawn
What is this person doing?
Katie
But even though that lasted, you know, a couple seconds before I realized what was going on, I don't know if that has stuck with me.
Shawn
A little PTSD going.
Katie
Yeah. And if the moon is out, God help me. Oh, geez. Because then it's real, that it's actually happening. But even if the moon's not out, I will wake up and to my mind, it will appear that the whole tent is lit up, even when it's not. And then if I stay awake for a minute or two, it goes away and I'm like, oh, this is not happening. But yeah, this is something I'm plagued with car camping, backpacking.
Shawn
Wow.
Katie
No matter where I am, like the first night, I'm always like, there's someone shining a light in my tent.
Shawn
Huh. Remind me not to shine a light on your tent.
Katie
Yeah. I will not be happy if you do that.
Shawn
I probably sleep better when I'm backpacking than I do anywhere. I mean, aside maybe from home, when I'm in my own bed that, you know. It's hard to compete with that. It's hard to compete with that. But when I'm backpacking, you're exhausted usually at the end of the first day anyways. And then if you're on a multi-day trip, you're just on the go. And so I typically don't have, I mean, some people have issues. I mean, altitude does impact your sleep as well, or at least can. But fortunately, I don't tend to have a problem when I'm backpacking. I'm sort of in my happy place and I'm out. I mean, unless it's cold or it's a storm. I was going to say, cold will get me. Yeah.
Katie
If it's not cold, then.
Shawn
But if I'm cold and then I just get up. Well, actually, sometimes more of the problem is I wake up and I'm too hot. And I'm taking my hat off and I'm unzipping my bag. And then I wake up two hours later. I'm like, man, it's cold.
Katie
Or the worst of all, you wake up and you have to pee.
Shawn
Well, there is that.
Katie
Okay. Has that changed? Yes. Have you gotten older?
Shawn
Most definitely. So, yeah. You used to be able to go through the night and not have to get up to pee. Now it's at least once, sometimes twice.
Katie
Every night?Do you ever make it through the night backpacking?
Shawn
I do.
Katie
Okay.
Shawn
Yeah. But it's usually about 5 o'clock between 4 and 5. I just can't. I have to get up. I can't wait any longer. And obviously when you're backpacking, you want to stay hydrated. And there's a very fine line between drinking enough to not be dehydrated and then drinking way too much to where you're up three times.
Katie
Have you tried just moving it earlier in the day?
Shawn
Drinking?
Katie
Yeah.
Shawn
Not drinking, but drinking water.
Katie
Drinking water. Have you tried like stop, you know, hydrate a little bit overly? Yeah. Until, you know, like two hours before you go to bed? Cutting it off? Drink a lot before dinner, but then don't drink right before you go to bed
Shawn
for sure. But then sometimes I wake up and I've got a dry mouth, and I always have some water next to me, and I'll just take literally one sip.
Katie
This also doesn't account for drinking beers at the end of the day or whatever it is. Maybe not beers if you're backpacking, but if you're bringing something to enjoy in the evening, that's probably when you're going to be drinking it.
Shawn
But yes, staying hydrated is kind of a, it's a catch 22. But yeah, you definitely have to get up. And I have a tiny bladder. I've always had a tiny bladder. So I could use and make it through the night. But now it's become more and more difficult. About four or five in the morning is about when I have to get up.
Katie
Yeah, the cold and the bathroom together are the two. Yeah, it's the worst.
Shawn
Climbing out of that nice warm bag. And you're thinking, is it time to get up yet? nope, it's not time to get up yet. Can I make it? Nope, I can't make it. I got to get up.
Katie
Dang it. Yeah, that is no fun. No, not at all. Last thing I wanted to ask you about is injury, which I guess we kind of have talked about your knee a little bit. But apart from that, have you noticed anything like either getting injured more often or when you get injured, having any sort of differences in terms of recovering from that injury that maybe weren't the case when you were younger?
Shawn
Yeah. I think it definitely is if you, if at least for me, and I think for a lot of people that are my age or even a little bit older, they complain about, man, I just can't shake this thing. It just keeps coming back. So it does definitely take a bit longer if you do injure yourself. Fortunately, I haven't, I mean, I, you know, I haven't twisted an ankle. I haven't, geez, I shouldn't have said that. Knock on wood again.
Katie
Name all the things that haven't happened to you.
Shawn
A lot. But yeah, fortunately I haven't, I haven't had any, I haven't had any injuries really while I've been backpacking. And other than just, you know, you might twist your ankle a little bit, but not severe enough to where you can't keep going. But I haven't had any injuries. I haven't had a trip or a fall.
Katie
Trekking poles, Shawn.
Shawn
Trekking poles. That'll keep it that way. Yeah. I just can't do it. The only time I like to – I have gone face first into the creek where I tried to do a, you know, hit the rock in the middle and then jump. Oh, yeah. That rock was just a little bit too slick and face first right in the middle of the creek. but fortunately it you know didn't hurt anything so but yeah I haven't had any major injuries but it does you know if you do have a little tweak here or there it definitely takes longer than it used to to to recover from so I mean the biggest concern and it's funny because a lot of my friends say I don't know with your back is it I mean my back is I'll do something really silly like pulling the dryer sheet out of the dryer and I'll tweak my back. And yet I can hoist a 50 pound backpack onto my back and I'm fine.
Katie
Well, I wonder if part of that is when you're pulling the dryer sheet out, you've likely been kind of sedentary before you're doing it. So, you know, you roll out of bed, you eat some breakfast, you're like, oh, I should get changed the laundry. And your body's still kind of like locked up. Whereas when you're throwing a backpack on, unless it's the first time you've done it that season or that trip you've likely been moving in lots of different planes of motion right your muscles are warmed up so I wonder like I i understand what you're saying but I wonder if some of that is you know once you're already out there backpacking your body's probably in kind of like the peak condition it can be in like your your muscles are warmed up, they're ready for what's coming
Shawn
yeah I don't know unfortunately I have not but that is one thing that concerns me because that is one area that is for me, you know, I've, I've tweaked it sometimes where I'm on the ground and I literally can't get up. So if that were to happen. So if that were to happen in the back country, that would not be good at all. Um, fortunately it's never happened. And I am pretty conscious about kind of how I move when I put my pack on. Um, but I've got a friend he's like I don't know how you can you know lift that pack on with your back the way it is and not be fearful of tweaking it or messing it up and but fortunately I haven't Paul has we were on a trip and he was adjusting the the the center pole of his of his teepee and bent over and kind of lifted it up so I could move the rock and tweaked his back and I wasn't sure he was going to get out.
Katie
How long did it take to not recover fully, but recover enough to function?
Shawn
Well, we did, we did manage to go fish that day, but he couldn't sit. And once he got sat down on a rock, he was like, he was trying to sit down and he couldn't get himself to actually sit down because he couldn't get his body in that position. And it was a rock that was probably, you know, a little more than waist high. He was just trying to get onto it. But once he's, once he got on the rock. He couldn't get off of it. I had to help him get off the rock. So he's like, I hope I can get that pack on for us to leave tomorrow. But he was fine the next day. I mean, it still was not perfect, but it was a little touch and go there. So that's probably the one thing that concerns me the most, especially if I'm out there by myself. If I do something with my back and have it go into spasms or something because I've been on the driveway laying down and I can't get up. I can't move. I just feel like someone shot me in the back. It's horrible.
Katie
I know backpacking is probably when all this stuff is way more likely, but I guess we should just touch quickly on has anything changed with fishing? I know you mentioned balance, which is probably relevant when people are waiting in sketchy situations, any of your general aches and pains. But is there anything that you've noticed specifically while you're fishing that you're like, yeah, this didn't happen when I was younger? Is it just kind of the general stuff that we've already talked about?
Shawn
I don't feel like I'm quite as stable, especially on the grease bowling balls in the river, trying to walk across those. I don't feel like I'm quite as nimble as I used to be, but I'm still doing it. For whatever reason, standing in the river or on the side of the lake, fishing and you know how you tend to sometimes kind of lean forward so you don't have perfect posture. When you're targeting a fish, you're trying to stay low. And that doesn't really bother me, fortunately. I thought I was afraid it was going to, because that was when I first hurt my back. And the doctor said, well, you're recovering. Your body is actually repairing itself. So, you know, we don't need to do any surgery. You're, you're one of the, the lucky 20% where that's, this actually resolves itself. And I was like, so can I go fly fish?
Katie
And he's like, yep, knock yourself out. Was the lucky 20% here. I don't know if he told you this, but is that actually lucky or is that you've built enough of a foundation physically that like your body is capable of getting back from something like that, bouncing back versus somebody who doesn't take care of themselves. And so like their body doesn't have the resources it needs to
Shawn
that's a great question. Um, he just was throwing out some statistics that with my particular disc issue, he said that, about 20% of the time it will resolve itself. And I was, I was that lucky 20%. And it probably has something to do with just, you know, being fit already, being strong already and, not being sedentary to where, you know, you just fall into the spiral of, you can't do anything because you can't do anything because you can't do anything. Yeah. Just like a negative feedback or positive, I guess, positive feedback, but in a negative way.
Katie
Yeah, exactly.
Shawn
So that's probably has a lot to do with it. I think just any injury, if you're, if you're strong already, you're going to be coming back from it a lot more quickly than, than if you, have issues already and, and have a lack of, of physical strength and, and stamina stability. So, I think I'm really lucky I've aged fairly gracefully again for as many miles as I have on me. Um, but, I just hope I can continue to do it and, you know, everyone's different. So when, when someone else gets to be 60, they may not be quite so fortunate. So it's, it all depends on the person. But I think if you just keep going and take care of your body, that's a big part of it.
Katie
Yeah. Well, is there anything else that you think we should have covered or?
Shawn
I can't think of anything. Staying hydrated, keep moving, stretch. Yeah. Be more conservative. Don't overdo it and know what your limitations are as you start to move into your later years. I can't believe I'm saying that.
Katie
You're in your later years now.
Shawn
I'm in my later years. I'm on the downhill slope.
Katie
Well, another fun episode.
Shawn
Yeah.
Katie
I'm sure we'll do another one. I don't know if it'll need to be a series. I feel like this feels like it kind of covered it.
Shawn
Wait a couple more years and we'll see.
Katie
We'll see if new things crop up.
Shawn
Right. New things crop up. Oh, remember when we talked about this? Well, let me tell you.
Katie
Well, if not this, then I'm sure we'll talk about something else.
Shawn
Yeah, there's plenty of fishing to talk about.
Katie
Sure. I know you've got some trips coming up, so maybe we'll.
Shawn
Yes. We have them coming up. Great trip to Alaska coming up this summer for my 60th birthday, so I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah, it's going to be fun. So it'll be a fly-in. A lot of fish, different fish species to catch. So we'll see how that goes. Should be exciting.
Katie
Well, look forward to hearing about it. And cheers.
Shawn
Yes, cheers.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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