Ep 154: Fishing the Spring Runoff, with Danny Frank
Danny Frank is the owner of Colorado Trout Hunters and guides in and around the Front Range of Colorado. In this episode, we talk about the specifics of fishing spring runoff, including timing of the runoff, daily fluctuations, freestones vs. tailwaters, reading water, fly selection, presentation, and much more.
Personal Instagram: @deltatroutforce
Business Instagram: @coloradotrouthunters
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Intro
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 541 with Danny Frank on fishing the spring runoff.
Katie
Well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and introduced to fly fishing. So, just tell me how you got introduced to fly fishing in the first place.
Danny
So, I'm originally from northeastern Ohio and when I was growing up they opened a small fly shop in my hometown. And so I started working there after school and have really been involved in the industry ever since.
Katie
Did you like have a did you fish a lot before this fly shop opened or were you just like intrigued by it?
Danny
I did. I've always been very into fishing and neither of my parents were into it. It was kind of funny I always think I was kind of born into it. My mom's dad he actually died fly-fishing. He was in a float tube and and fell in the water in upstate New York.
Katie
Oh, my God.
Danny
But for some reason, I was always just into fishing. And my mom always said, Hey, if you only had 10 minutes to do something, you know, he would have wanted to go fishing. So I always just think I was just kind of there as a fishing gene somehow, and it got passed on to me. So my parents weren't really into it, but I always wanted to do it. And they were very supportive. I mean, they would like before I could drive, drive me places and, you know, take me fishing. But then working at that fly shop, Chagrin River Outfitters really helped me, I don't know, take the passion to the next level.
Katie
I have not been to Chagrin River Outfitters, but I'm familiar with them. I've talked to some of the guys over there before, and my husband's from Cleveland, so I'm like kind of familiar with the area and I'm from northwestern Pennsylvania. So like that area is is familiar to me, even though I haven't actually stopped in their shop before.
Danny
Yeah, there is actually really good fishing out there. I feel like it doesn't get the attention it deserves. It certainly is getting more now, but I always really enjoyed it. A lot of people now talk about, you know, the Great Lakes, steelhead and the lake run rainbows there. I always really just liked the PA trout or just like the smallmouth or the carp in the surrounding rivers there. And then Dan Pribanic, the owner there, he always called me Noonan from Caddyshack, Danny Noonan. He was like, Noonan, you got to go all west. And so then I moved to Colorado in 2007. And, you know, just basically for fishing. You know, I was like, went to school out there, but all my school choices were based just around where I wanted to fish. And it just kind of kept snowballing there.
Katie
Were you fly fishing for carp and stuff in Pennsylvania and Ohio? I feel like that's kind of a more recent craze. Not that people haven't done it before, but I feel like carp really blew up in the last five years or so.
Danny
It certainly has gotten popular. I actually have a carp guide that works for us, Rick Mikesell, who is awesome at it. But yeah, back in Ohio, it wasn't as popular, but I really had fun doing it. I liked it more than fishing in the cold in the winter for the lake run fish. So I certainly did it a lot and there's a lot of little small mouth and stuff like that. And the fishing in PA is a lot of fun. It was more like match the hatch style of fishing than out here. But I certainly enjoyed it in like central Pennsylvania, that state college area, as you know, is some of the most incredible trout fishing there is.
Katie
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask next is where in the state did you go? Because like I grew up in northwestern Pennsylvania and we had trout, but I didn't think of it as like a place that people would be traveling to fish. I actually never made it out to like central or north central PA when I lived there to fish I like I didn't really pick up fly fishing until I came out here So I've heard amazing things about that part of the state, but I've never actually experienced it.
Danny
Yeah, there's All around the State College area rivers like the Little Juniata or everyone's calls it the Little J or Spring Creek were pretty awesome. And like I said a lot more like bug specific match the hatch. They have this bug out there called the sulfur that was a really fun hatch to fish, kind of similar to like a PMD out west. But yeah, so I really, really enjoyed that. I remember there'd be times like I convinced my dad to drive me out there and he'd be so bored, like skipping rocks in the river as I'm like trying to cast a fish rising and stuff. But it was cool. They would always take me out there and help me really get into it.
Katie
Yeah, we've talked a couple times on this show about that kind of situation, because I was in the same boat growing up and my parents didn't fish, but I just had like a bug. And I've met a couple other people like that where, you know, they weren't raised with it felt like it was something they needed to be doing. And it's really nice to have parents that are at least, you know, enabling if they're not willing to go out and do it with you.
Danny
Yeah, yeah, they were very supportive. I know they were sad when I moved away and I love being from Ohio. There's no way I could really still live there now. But yeah, they were very supportive of me following the passion.
Katie
And what did you find when you came to Colorado compared to like what you were used to growing up? You know, was it everything you dreamed of or was there kind of a learning period, an adjustment period?
Danny
Yeah, I really loved it. I grew up reading about like the South Platte and like, you know, Pat Dorsey's books. And I really liked catching fish on really small flies for some reason, which now I kind of hate doing. But like, I really like doing that. So that was one of the main reasons I came out was specifically the South Platte River. And now, you know, owner guide service that guides on it. So it's pretty crazy that that came full circle. But yeah, I really loved it. I mean, I would come out and fish all the time. My buddy and I in school would would stack our schedules. So we'd have like classes two days a week, you know, from like eight in the morning to nine at night, but we were fishing, you know, every other day.
Katie
So what did you do when you first got out here? Like, what did you do for work? Were you immediately kind of like in the fishing industry or did that take away before you actually started guiding?
Danny
Yeah, so I went to school at the University of Denver, majored in environmental science and sustainability, and then also was guiding for the original owner of Colorado Trout Hunters throughout college. And he actually went to DU, that's how I got connected with him. He went to the law school there. But yes, I guided for him throughout college and worked at a fly shop in town and really got my foot in the door and in the industry out here. And it wasn't really that popular then. I feel like fly fishing has really taken off recently, but then it was kind of unique to have a younger person in it. So I had some great people kind of take me under their wing and give me some cool opportunities.
Katie
And how did you get from there to now, you know, kind of running the show?
Danny
So I guided for him throughout college and then after college I actually did the marketing over at Fishpond and worked with those guys closely. And then, you know, their headquarters is right here in downtown Denver. And then I really missed guiding more. So I was kind of able to work for them while kind of get back into guiding and was guiding for them for or do guiding for a while while working at Fishpond. And then in Colorado a lot of the river permits are capped, like you can't go and get a new commercial use permit to guide some place. And the guy I was guiding for wanted to sell the commercial use permits. And so I thought that was kind of a good risk I should take. And yeah, so I was able to get a lot of those permits on the South Platte that you can't really get.
Katie
Yeah, I saw that you had mentioned ahead of time in the doc I sent over that, you know, working in a fly shop, working as a guide, working in marketing has kind of given you insight into all the different facets of the fly fishing industry. What's that been like, seeing things from both sides of the coin, I guess, or all sides of the coin?
Danny
Yeah, I think it certainly helps. I think a lot of people have ideas, but none of them are really realistic. And so it's kind of fun knowing why something might work from a product standpoint, just from guiding, but knowing how you can't just... We will get some crazy suggestions from people when we have Fishpond. But then to take that knowledge and just apply it, learning how to deal with sales reps and talking to all the different fly shops. And then, you know, really help just with dealing with clients out here and maybe relationships with other people in this industry and hiring a guide staff and stuff like that. Just kind of having, you know, your foot in the door and good connections with everyone certainly helped lead to other opportunities.
Katie
What were the interesting suggestions that you got?
Danny
You know, I think a lot of people would just want, you know, these perfect bags that were waterproof, but then had a ton of organization in them. Obviously, if you're stitching something into a fabric, it's no longer waterproof. We would just get funny ones throughout the time, but I think it did give me a unique perspective from the industry, just doing the product design and marketing stuff through them and just connecting with different people and anglers throughout the world, really. Fishpond is such a big reach and still very close with them. They're an awesome company and good friends.
Katie
I saw you also have done some product testing, which I guess is another facet that we didn't mention before. But what goes into that? How do you test a product? What are you looking for? If you're not just comparing two things side by side, how do you know whether something is doing what you need it to be doing? I guess I just don't know anything about the world of product testing. So just fill me in on what goes into that.
Danny
Yeah. Well, it's been nice. I do a lot of product testing with Kyle over at Patagonia, and it's pretty incredible the amount of detail they do put in their design team over there. So it's mostly just beat up their products as much as possible. You know, they'll give you like a waterproof bag and then, you know, you'll be paying attention to their attachment points. Is this one too low? Does this water bottle holder come at a weird angle that will fall out? But it's really just actually using it, you know, using it in applicable situations. And I think also not being afraid to give feedback. I think some people maybe would do do product testing, just want to tell them good things. But I think they appreciate honest feedback because they certainly want to learn and improve it. Well, you know, just being on the water a lot. I'm definitely on the water a little less now than I used to be. But for a lot of years I was on the water 220 days a year. So you really get a chance to beat up products. And that was kind of what I think the most important thing was durability. And then also just different features that you like and use. And I like to think they take some of your feedback. I mean, if you ask for my opinion, I definitely give it to them. And I do think they it's cool that they can take the time to do that, I don't think all the companies in the industry do it. A lot of them maybe design something in an office where I think Patagonia does a great job of actually designing stuff on the water.
Katie
It's so interesting just thinking about this process of like you having a piece of equipment and giving your feedback on what you like and don't like because you know all these things you're saying that they put a lot of effort into you know really perfecting it and you can see that with the products you get from them and you like because I know I also have some Patagonia products that I really like. I've tried some other products that I like can't stand but it's all for like kind of personal preference things. Like my old Patagonia waders, I could not stand that instead of like clipping the straps off the waders, that they were slide. But I know that's like a personal preference because a lot of people love the slide waders and like, I'm not a sling pack person. Like I hate the cross body sling. I need a hip pack. And it's just kind of funny that, you know, I view those as like, oh my God, these are the worst design products ever. But then somebody else obviously went out and tested them and was like, this is amazing. It's perfect, like ready to go to market. And I don't know, it just makes me think about how so many preferences are probably going product testing based on like what the person likes and what they're looking for.
Danny
Yeah you're never gonna please everyone that's for sure and I think that's where I like kind of doing some of the testing. I actually don't even like hip packs or sling packs. I wear a vest still. I'm trying to bring back vests. A bunch of my guides wear vests too. Not when I'm like fun fishing myself but I love guiding out of a vest but I think that also helps because then I can be really critical of the slings and I don't know the different packs in different situations. I like using different and stuff, but you are certainly right. You're never gonna please everyone in these things.
Katie
Convince me on the vest. What do you like about the vest?
Danny
I like the organization, and I like that I can have almost a backpack in the back so I can keep water bottles, raincoats for clients. And another good thing is the net. I feel like there's never a good spot to put a net with a hip pack or a sling.
Katie
I agree.
Danny
And swinging it around, it's always getting in the way. I like how I can tuck it in my wading belt, have my vest here, and I can re-rig full rods, never looked down. It's also just, I hate change, like most fishermen, and I've been using a vest for forever. But it's funny, a couple of the guides I work with all are on a vest as well. Anyone who tries it, they don't usually go back.
Katie
I think it's funny, a lot of people think of vests just being for like, I don't know, kind of outdated. I bet there's modern vests that people aren't even aware like are an option, 'cause I think when a lot of people think of the vest, they think of the old khaki thing that like their grandfather wore that's just like some pockets and that's it. And it's like, well, a hip pack has so much more organization than that. But I think modern vests are not what a lot of people are picturing.
Danny
And they're lighter. Yeah, they'll use like a lighter weight fabric. And I do like that too, like weight distribution. I feel like I'm getting old, getting a bad back. It's just easier to distribute all the weight. And I bring way too much stuff as is. I try to make every client drys, nips, and streamers in the same day. So I got to have a lot of boxes. I just can't do it in packs.
Katie
I think there's something to what you're saying though about like what you started with. Like I started with a hip pack and then I thought I would like a sling so I went to a sling for a bit and tried it out and I was like I just miss the hip pack and I don't know if it's more that I actually like the hip pack or that that's what I like started with and that's you know I had my way of setting it all up and in the sling pack I just kept thinking like yeah but it's not right it's not the hip pack so I wonder how much of it is is that you just had a lot of experience with the vest and you know feels like home in a way.
Danny
Exactly we are anglers and inherently stubborn, that is for sure.
Katie
So I want to talk a little bit about what your guiding looks like these days. We just established before we got on that you and I live like two miles apart and didn't realize it. And so down here, I'm thinking of the South Platte in town. There's obviously the South Platte stretches up in the mountains. But like where else do you guide? And what does that look like different times of the year, especially since in the mountains, apart from tailwaters, things get kind of locked up at times. So I just want to hear like, what does your guiding season like throughout the year?
Danny
Definitely. So the South Platte is very much my home river, but as you know, there's so many different stretches and they all are influenced by different dams. I mean, for better or for worse, there's certainly some good parts about them, being able to fish them year round, but that also, I feel like with dams, gives people the power to make decisions with flows and when they make decisions, they're never about the fish, which is a little frustrating with river flows. But yeah, so I mean, we can guide a trip And I got a trip every month of the year out here just on the different tail waters I really like the early spring stuff of the migratory fish You know, we have a lot of reservoirs So which means you have fish that can grow big in the reservoirs and then move into the rivers before they spawn So I really enjoy chasing kind of those migratory fish And then as ice off comes I've definitely been doing more and more stuff out of the boat on the reservoirs I do think still waters are a very I don't know fast-growing part of the sport, but also just underutilized You know when runoff comes the tailwaters don't get runoff as bad, but still it's a it's nice to have the reservoirs I feel like I don't have to worry about river flows as much The water can get warm, but not as warm like later in the summer. You know fish can go deeper Also, just less crowded. I feel like there's rivers certainly any river near Denver if it's not crowded You probably are either trespassing or there's no fish there So it's like I just it's kind of been a fun new challenge for me to do more still water stuff And then in the summer we do a lot of you know More like high country stuff on the South Platte more the headwaters, which is a lot smaller But streams and smaller fish but more dry dropper double dry fly Stuff we're lucky to have the Eagle River which can have some great fishing as well more of a free stone The last couple years later in the season, it's gotten a little warm and obviously we'll put some food all enclosures on that And then you get into the fall and they're still great fishing on the reservoir So same time but also you can get another push of migratory fish on some stretches this time of year more of the brown trout coming out and then You know you get back into the winter and you're restricted to the stretches right below the dams But we do still have have those and in the river stretch like the Arkansas River We have some permits down there on the tailwater and I mean it's always 15 degrees warmer there than Denver And there's fishing all throughout the winter You know you can throw dry flies all winter long the blue wings keep hatching so we really do have some great year-round fishing I always joke with my guides. It's winners adjust. There's always gonna be flows issues, or you know yes There is gonna be crowding, but you know we they're still we're lucky to have all these different options
Katie
At the end of the day guiding is more about like showing your clients a good time and like often that includes fish but it's more often adapting to what life throws at you and making the best of it and showing them a good time regardless of what you're dealt.
Danny
And we obviously all have high standards, but some people just want to go out and maybe catch their first fish and learn as much as possible. Yeah, that's the thing. As guides, you know, we're there to teach, not guarantee they catch. And you can never deal with other people on certain crowded rivers. Guides are really good at working with each other and, you know, just spreading out and rotating around. So and I mean it is a good problem to have obviously from a business standpoint you do need customers and other people So there certainly are plenty of pros to go along with you know a couple cons
Katie
What kind of like setup do you use on the still waters like what kind of boat do you use and what kind of techniques?
Danny
So I have a 17-foot Lund which has a 90 horsepower on it, so it's pretty fun I mean you don't need a 90 horsepower, but I think you know you So yeah, it really is just after ice off finding the warmest water possible for those fish. They'll be cruising the shorelines You know, it's always windy out there but that does stir up the water bring some of that water water up to the surface and Right after I saw a lot of it's like leeches eggs kind of bigger Bugger attractor stuff, but then the hatches get going pretty quick I mean once the the lakes open and we can drop boats and it'll be a lot of chironomids anywhere We'll be going out to like more 15 to 10 foot deep water there. And you can either fish an indicator rig and spread out your flies a lot. So it'll be like four feet between them till you find the right depth that they're at. Or you can also it's real popular is like using midge tip lines, you know, kind of a slow sinking intermediate line. So it's a little more proactive costing back, stripping it back to you. And then next up are the Calabasas. And at that point, it's like later spring into summer. The fish are a lot more active when they are hitting the Calabasas. I feel like just because the water's warmed up some. Once that gets going and then those are followed quickly by the damselflies, we'll do a lot of dry dropper for them. You know, I can't really stare at a bobber all day. So it's kind of fun to mix it up, do more dry dropper stuff, fish a little higher in the water column. And, you know, I mean, they're some of the biggest fish in the state in these still waters. You don't have to pay private water rod fees and you can go get these really nice fish.
Katie
When, when it's early season, you're trying to decide between, kind of like a or just put a bunch of midges below an indicator. How do you decide one versus the other technique there? Is it kind of up to the client? Do they want to be more active or more passive? Or is it--
Danny
Definitely. Definitely up to the client. But also, it's kind of fun if you have two clients. Have one do each, and then see what one's working a little bit more. I would say water temps is probably the biggest thing there, though. I mean, as that water warms up, they really will take stuff a little bit more movement on there and a little more proactive. Gotcha. And it's funny, because this stuff is huge over in the UK and Europe. Everyone's doing it. But people haven't gotten onto the stillwater train as much over here.
Katie
Yeah, I've kind of noticed the same thing. Like I mentioned before that like carp kind of blew up in the last five years or so. And I feel like stillwater is now doing that. But it does seem to be like pockets of people. It's not like everyone's doing it. It's like some communities, like that's all they're talking about. That's all they're doing. And they're having a lot of success. And I talked to a lot of other people who were like, yeah, I've never done that. You know, it's not anywhere on my radar.
Danny
And it's just so fun. I will, parts of it are really fun. I get, I'm a pretty impatient. I feel like I'm the least patient fishing guide in the world. So in a river, if I can't find it, it's like, all right, I'm just going to move until I find them and make a meet, but on a Lake, you can't always do that. I told people it's like the game of baseball. It'll be like periods where it's really exciting, but then there's definitely some periods where it's a little boring. You know, you got to keep your clients entertained, have your jokes ready that day, and it's just different. The wind out here is the biggest thing, you know, you'll start early and then the wind can knock you off at any moment. But it is more like the, the bugs hatch more like kind of predictable and on the specific time frame so you can plan it a little better there. And it's just fun to do something different. You know, I kind of don't want to be stuck going through the motions on certain rivers. If I guide one place too much, that can definitely happen. So it's fun to mix it up.
Katie
Do you do any like high alpine lake or small stream stuff? Are you pretty confined to the larger rivers, the reservoirs, stuff like that?
Danny
Yeah. So we don't have, we have like one high mountain lake will fish again. A lot of the spots are just commercial use permits. I don't get like commercial use up in Rocky Mountain National Park or anything anymore for those high mountain lakes. One of my guides has his own company up there. We'll send people to that. Um, you know, it's kind of pick and choose. It's just, it's hard for me. It's a little bit longer of a drive and a lot of those spots. You need a longer hike or maybe overnight it. And I don't know, with a one and a half year old little girl at home and a wife, and I have to run the business at night. So I got, I can't like not be in cell phone service. Yeah. You know, like when I got during the day and I get home, it's like, Oh man, I got 10 voicemails and 20 emails. If I don't go and do those, I cost my other guys work. So I wish I could do more of that high mountain stuff, and I definitely used to do it a lot more. Like in college, I loved going and hiking to those lakes. I think they are so fun. But I really don't get to do those as much anymore as I would like to.
Katie
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that people who focus on that kind of stuff need to really focus on that kind of stuff. It's kind of hard to dabble as a guide in the more remote stuff if that's not kind of-- you're not basically headquartered in Rocky Mountain National Park. The people up there can focus on that. But from down here, we're like two hours away from that area.
Danny
Oh, yeah. And another thing, it's really fun to guide spots. But also, you can fun fish these spots and not necessarily guide them. Because a lot of my favorite spots to fun fish, there aren't commercial use permits for. It's really interesting guiding in Colorado versus other states, just where you're allowed to fish versus not.
Katie
Yeah, how does that work? Are there places that you actually can't guide?
Danny
Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch where there's no commercial use permits, or there's some where there's only one or two given out, and they're all just grandfathered in, so you'll never get a new one.
Katie
Interesting. I kind of assumed that they were places that required special permits because they were heavily visited, like the National Park. But I kind of assumed that random run-of-the-mill Alpine Lake in the middle of nowhere, you'd be allowed to guide there, just be a trek to get in there. I didn't realize that you actually had to get a permit for that. Yeah.
Danny
And there certainly is plenty of road guiding going on out here. Well, people kind of do it illegally, but I definitely am very against that. We do it all by the books. And there are certainly some commercial use permits, and there's some spots that have no commercial use. So we don't--
Katie
Interesting.
Danny
Yeah, we don't mess with any of that and try to play by the rules.
Katie
Learn something new every day. One more thing I wanted to touch on before I get into why I reached out to you, which is spring fishing with spring coming up here. You mentioned that you have a 1 and 1/2 year old. And I actually just got-- I had someone reach out just the other day saying that they really enjoyed something I released recently about fishing with young kids because my friend has a young child, and she's kind of navigating that. So I wanted to touch on that with you as well, being in the same boat, of fishing when you have a young child. And I don't know if your daughter's to the point yet where she's coming with you fishing, or if you're just trying to navigate fishing while having a family at home that you're trying to take care of. But I'll just kind of let you lead the way here. Just tell me what it's like trying to navigate fishing and having a young child and trying to introduce them to what you love to do and all that.
Danny
Yeah, well, I'm very lucky to have the most patient wife because I fish all the time and don't bring my kid. But I have taken, Lil' Junie is her name. Yeah, she's come out fishing with us before she was even a year old. You know, put her on a backpack, got out there. It was a lot of fun. I mean, she had more fun playing with sticks and laughing at the dogs. But yeah, I can't wait for her to get into it more and more. I mean, I'm not gonna like force her into it, but I definitely want her to get into it. I hope she doesn't become a fishing guide though. I hope she's like the person that can pay a fishing guide and fish herself. But but yeah, she's awesome. I always joke. She's gonna be a marine biologist when she gets over She's gonna love the planet protect all the fish. So I'm really excited to get her out And I love the I think fishing such a great sport. There's no advantage between male or female I think it's amazing all the female anglers into it. I'm very lucky I've worked with this small travel company for like 15 years and the owners are husband-wife couple Justin and Kate Crump and Kate is just such a role model and I always joke like Junie when she gets older, everyone's going to summer camp. I'm sending Junie up to Alaska to work with Aunt Kate, you know, like, so I think it'll be a lot of fun. I hope my wife shuts down some of my ideas, but she's going to have fun and a lot of personality. That'll be for sure. And I've got a feeling she's going to love it. I mean, how could you not? It might not be for everyone. Like I get it. Just not like something everyone has to become obsessed with, but I really feel like if you take anyone out with me in the right spot, like if they don't have fun, they don't have a pulse. You know, it's like, it's awesome. You're in the mountains, you're catching fish, you know, you're laughing. It's yeah.
Katie
Did you find it easier to, or easy to take her out as a really young baby? Cause I feel like when they're very young, you can probably just like throw them on your back and you know, they can't really resist, but I don't know if she's getting to the age now where you're going to have to start kind of like keeping a closer eye on her cause she's going to be on the move.
Danny
Exactly. I mean, if it was just me, I'd be in trouble, but luckily my wife was there and she's really good with Junie and kind of keeps her really happy, but we did, we did get her a fish and like held it in front where she kind of like poked it. I don't know went back to wanting to play with the dogs.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, I get the impression that at that age It's kind of hard to keep kids focused on the actual act of fishing and you've kind of got to be flexible When it comes to what you're actually doing while you're out there.
Danny
And she's I mean, she's so young so she's gonna get it I always joke she's already gonna double haul better than some of my buddies
Katie
Great well, uh, what I what I kind of want to talk to you about today with with spring coming up and you you know guiding in an area that can kind of fish year-round so you don't have to keep your fishing just to the you know June, July, August time frame. I just want to talk about fishing in spring conditions and you know tailwaters that might not be much different than the rest of the year. Non-tailwaters that might be a hell of a lot different than the rest of the year. So maybe I'll just start with you know your guiding. We talked a little bit about it with like the reservoir seasonality and stuff but when spring rolls around let's say you know I'm thinking kind of May-ish is when I kind of consider the start of like the spring season, like things are starting to kick off. What are you kind of seeing when you go out either on reservoirs or tailwaters or non-tailwaters and we can kind of narrow it down from there in terms of like techniques and what people might expect if they go out?
Danny
Yeah, so I mean I think the big thing is like the difference between the tailwaters and the freestones and then obviously out here just elevation. You know I mean the Eagle is probably the main one we guide that we have to deal with runoff and you know the Eagle for people that don't know that are listening is out by all the ski resorts, right? You got Vail and Beaver Creek, so obviously a ton of snow and that snow goes places when it melts, which is right down the river. But you kind of go through different waves. I mean, that first bump of snow melt, the river will certainly get more debris and mud kind of kicked up. I mean, you think about how much stuff can accumulate on a river bank throughout a year, and then it's all of a sudden going into the river at once. But after that initial push, you know, you will get get some slow rising there. Um, but you can really keep fishing. I mean, I always tell people trout are just these amazing, like adaptable opportunists, you know, they, they can live in such a range of conditions and they're, they're still eating. I mean, the flows get up, but it's shocking how well those fish can see in the water, even when muddy water. And if you get in the right spot, I mean, as the water gets higher, it's almost easier to read because there's going to be certain spots where, you know, Hey, this is the only spot these fish can really sit and even on the water is muddy. We can still get them to eat. I mean, I've caught fish in less than like three inches of visibility. You know, look at your foot, your wading boot in the river when you step in and you'll be able to see it. You know, from like when it gets really close, you can still see your foot from a couple inches away. You can still get those fish to eat. You know, I'm definitely fishing a lot of flies that maybe aren't described like flies for everyone, you know, bigger worms and, you know, some eggs or some big stone flies, you got to you got to fish bigger and kind of rope up. You can use some heavier line because the water is muddier. So the fish aren't going to be nearly as spooky. So there's that stuff like that that you can use to your advantage. You know, you can use heavier line, bigger hooks, and then you just got to use a lot of weight. If you're not getting bottom, you're really not going to catch them at all. I think that's probably the biggest thing you see in Colorado, especially with Wade Fishermen or people just aren't using enough weight. You know, they're getting the bottom, but they're only getting the bottom at the very end of their drift. It's like, if you're doing a 20 foot drift, you need those flies. Sinking quick and in the zone for at least 15 feet of it. And people are always like, oh, but I'm getting bottom. It's like, dude, you're getting that last second, you know, you just wasted 95% of your draft. So I would much rather and run off, especially do a short drift, but a very precise one. So maybe not as much depth on my indicator, but a lot of weight. You know, I'm getting down in a hurry and you just got to be OK losing flies. You know, just I mean, that's another reason why it's nice using some bigger bugs like worms during runoff. You know, you don't really feel that bad when you lose them. Or I fish two X, so I can usually get them back. And yeah, I mean, just ton of weight. Get it down there. Snacks and bottom. But I mean, after the flows get higher, once they start like different rivers, peak at a different time, depending on runoff, you know, some of the rivers out here that their snowpack where it's coming from is 14000 feet. Those rivers might not peak till the first week of June or even mid June. And then some will peak earlier. So you can kind of, if you know your waterways and where the snow is coming from, move around and miss the worst of the runoff in the muddy water, which I definitely like to do. I mean, I want to sight fish as much as possible, but if you are out there and rivers are pretty high, you can usually still make it happen. And then after they peak, as they drop, that's like the best fishing of the year. You know, the flows are high, but they're clearing every day. They kick out a lot of those bigger fish and you can still fight them with a much heavier line.
Katie
Yeah, that was gonna be something I asked, is kind of like, what is your ideal part of that hydrograph? Because, you know, there's, it's nice to fish like a low clear stream because it's like easy to wade and the sun's out and everything, but sometimes I feel like a slightly rising or slightly falling creek with like a little bit of color to it does something that like turns the fish on a little bit. I don't fully know what that is.
Danny
I mean, I like rising, especially on like a tailwater, because sometimes it'll rise and like the water is usually still gonna stay clear. it can get a little muddier, but it'll just kick up scuds and like some bigger crustaceans and bigger bugs. So like if normally you're fishing the South Platte, I like the Dreamstream or Deckers, you're fishing 5X in little midges or blue wings and then the flows come up, you can fish a worm and a scud and 3X and 4X. On a free stone as it rises and free stone, you know, think free flowing, no dam on the river, it definitely is a little tougher on the increase in flow, but you can still make it happen. You just gotta be aware of water temps too if it's like just freezing cold, snow melting. And you can fish streamers off the banks if you're floating or just like really big black streamers. I mean people think of bright but really efficient muddy water is gonna see black and dark better like the contrast versus flashy. But on a free stone my favorites on the drop you know after it peaks and starts to drop. It'll slightly clear every day but you still have that good color to you know, kind of cover up any of your mistakes.
Katie
Do you think that's what it is? Like is it the color that's just covering up your tippet and and mistakes like that or is there something about a slight tint in the water that actually makes the fish a little bit hungrier?
Danny
I think it's more just covering up our mistakes. Well, obviously when the flows are higher they they're expending more energy in the current and you replace energy by eating so they do have to feed more in the higher water. That is for sure, but I also think it's just they're a little more comfortable, you know, like a cloudy day they're gonna be more comfortable. Their predators really come from above in people or birds. So if they have a little more cover, I think they relax a little bit more, let their guard down some.
Katie
So maybe it's a little less about, "I'm actually hungry," and more that they just feel a little bit safer and at the same time, you are a little bit more disguised from them.
Danny
Exactly.
Katie
So you being more disguised and them feeling safer is kind of a perfect combination for them to end up on the end of your line, even if it's not that they're like, "I want more bugs."
Danny
they're opportunists, right? So if more bugs are being kicked off, like they are in high flows, they're gonna take advantage of that. Yeah.
Katie
Have you noticed fish being picky to certain colors, sizes, stuff like that of like a squirmy worm? 'Cause I've noticed sometimes that, you know, they'll seem to be picky for me on like what kind of worm is being thrown, but it kind of strikes me as odd because it feels like one of those things that like they have to eat it when it's in front of their face, they have to take advantage of it. And so I've always kind of found it counterintuitive that during that time they could still be picky. Have you found that? Why is it just in my mind?
Danny
Yeah. I mean, they certainly can, but I'm more with like the size and the shape. I don't know how much with color. A lot of people disagree with me on this, and I'm sure, you know, but I don't really think fish see color that well. I think maybe more of just shades of contrast, you know, between black and white and a bunch of different grays. I mean, we see everything on a visible light spectrum. I don't think fish can. I think they can see more ultraviolet, and I think they can see more different shades, but that's where it's more like profile. I mean, yeah, squirmy worms again, a lot of people. I'm not a purist here. They will hate on that, but they do work in the big flow, you know, kicking the worms out. But then I've also had fish that don't like the squirmy. I mean, in a low, clear river, you can't use those. The fish will be onto them. So yeah, but it's more like size, I think, and profile of the bug is really what I think more than color.
Katie
What are some of your favorite go-to, like, kind of high water, dirty water flies? I know I was talking about worms and I think of like a pat's rubber legs, but are there things that there may be a little less conventional that people don't think of that you've had good luck on in the higher flows?
Danny
Yeah, I mean, I definitely am a fan of the squirmy worm. I actually take like a tungsten bead and will triple wrap it like a 3/32nd bead and then thread a squirmy worm through it just so it's a really big one in the center and then snell just a bare hook below it. So again, really probably offending the purists here. I think it's better on the fish. You're going to get a better hook set in their mouth. I like having the hook snelled behind just so a snell hook line like stays in line with the hook. It's not going to go off to the side and hook the fish in the eye. And then I also think the fly just lasts a lot longer. It's not like the thin diameter of a thread can cut through that kind of delicate material. Yeah, so I'll use that a lot. And then a lot of like dark stones, I think, are really good to off the back. And I mean, I'm fishing those on two X and three X. I really rope up. I think a lot of people go, go too light on their tip, but, um, and you know, some of those new kind of jig flies that are really popular with the Euro nymphing, I'll put one of those off the back, just like a, um, like a Duracell or something that has some ultraviolet in there mixed with the black and just kind of buggy looking stuff. I don't think they're going to be all that fly specific. We're in later in the year on the South Platte, those fish, you know, you can't use flash. They're so smart. You can't have a bright split shot or something. It could spook them. Those fish are so smart at certain times of the year. But there's also times of the year where you can get away with a little less realistic rigs.
Katie
And are you sticking to mostly blacks, dark brown, stuff like that? Are there any other colors that you go to? Or is it just the darker the better?
Danny
Yeah, I really like dark for muddy water.
Katie
And do you go bigger than you normally would?
Danny
Yeah, and with streamers, you can do that a lot as well. kind of big dark streamers, I think, have a good contrast in the muddy water.
Katie
You mentioned getting weighed down, which is something that I feel like is fairly common in fly fishing, regardless of the water you're fishing, like you're trying to get down often. But you're also talking about thicker tippet, things that would kind of go against the typical ways to get down. You could add weight, you could go with a fluorocarbon instead of a monofilament, you could go with a thinner tippet. Are you basically relying solely on added weight and/or the weight of the fly itself?
Danny
Yeah, added weight and weight of the flies are huge. And I'll do a lot of 90 degree nymph rigs. I think that'll help sink it faster where it's basically like-- I'm trying to think how to explain it. I'll do a loop knot and put the bobber through that so it can free spin. And then right off the loop, just level line. So I attach three or four feet of just straight 2X. So it's not a tapered leader. that'll help pull it down a little faster. It's almost like a drop shot. So then you can have a fly and then your very bottom fly could be like more of a jig style fly that'll help sink it a little bit faster. 'Cause you're right, the line and on those tapered leaders certainly does slow down the sink rate. So that 90 degree rig helps or just lots of weight. Big three yachts. Yeah, those help get it down too.
Katie
One thing I'm thinking of when you're talking about getting down is when water's really high, I'm kind of assuming the fish are all stacked up right along the edges, like in little eddies and pockets that they can get in and not spend too much energy. Is getting down deep-- are you getting down to fish that are hunkering behind rocks? Or are you also kind of hitting these edge sections where they're hiding? I'm just trying to figure out why is it that they're hanging down deep when the water's high.
Danny
Definitely, ideally, those edge fish are great. And you don't have to go nearly as heavy and deep. But I do feel like those fish get picked on first, caught first or spooked out into the faster water. Fish, I really like fishing fast water, and I feel like a lot of people don't fish it or don't fish it right. Like there's a lot of fish that yeah, fishing the banks is great, but they pretty quickly will get spooked off those banks if you're waiting, if you're floating, you can keep hammering the banks, but if you're weight fishing, they will, you know, get, get pushed off those banks. And it's not like you have to be fishing whitewater, but fish, you know, if you think of the shape of a fish, it is perfectly designed for their environment. How they, you know, the, the shape of them and they can really fight that current without that much effort. But on those spots that's where weight is more crucial. When it's yeah fishing the edges, man you almost don't need any weight on some of those fish when they're right at where your feet are and kind of sneaking up on them. And that's a lot of fun and if I'm fun fishing I'll do that a lot. Sometimes with clients that can be a little bit harder to get them into those fish where if I can get them in a spot that fish are holding in a little more moving water those fish will eat.
Katie
Tell me more about fish like targeting fish in the faster water like what do you do how are you reading that water when it's kind of just like a churning muddy river. And you know, how are you, how are you thinking? Like there's a fish right there versus like, when you're looking at the eddies, you can kind of see like, well, that looks like an easy place to hang out. I bet there's a fish in there.
Danny
Yeah. I'd say it's just kind of, I don't know, compared, comparing it to other spots. You know, the fish are going to want obviously that direct current and being able to breathe the dissolved oxygen, but not anything like too crazy fast. But I think the more you do it and the more you get comfortable, you can realize. No, those fish are usually spread out in this entire river. They can't all just be behind a couple of pockets. They can spread out more. And again, the water on the surface doesn't always match the water underneath either. There can be rocks underneath. Obviously, there's friction between the water and the bottom. The water on the bottom is going to be flowing a lot slower than the water on the top.
Katie
So is it a bit of prospecting on your part, just kind of trying things and trying to get a feel for where the main--
Danny
Yeah, and I think you just see stuff enough. Yeah, you kind of can start to be like, all right, that looks fishy. Classic guy, can't explain a lot of this stuff. You just look at some spots, and you're like, all right, that's fishy. that's going to hold the fish.
Katie
No, I think that's a fairly common thing, even with reading, quote unquote, "regular water." You can read the rules like, oh, fish will hang out behind a rock, or in front of a rock, or in this and that seam. And it's like, you can follow the rules of the book, but there's something to be said for just-- you've done it enough times, you can see it.
Danny
Break those rules. Break every one of those rules. Especially in Colorado, the fish are smart, and pressure changes everything. You read a book growing up, it talks about behind the rocks. Well, most people that fish out here will agree that they feed better in front of a rock. And it's just-- I don't know. A lot of people make rules for different fisheries, but I don't. Those fish really, they don't care about your rule. They will change. Especially out here, I see them sitting crazy shallow compared to other rivers or spots where they're getting more pressure because they want to move away from the pressure. I always think those fish really, if you fish a river with no pressure, it's going to be very different and they will sit in different spots than rivers with a lot of pressure.
Katie
I think rules like that are helpful for somebody just getting started because they need to know somewhere to begin because they have no idea what to do. I think you're right that the more time you spend out there, the more you just get a feel for things that you can't really put into words in a way that's quantifiable or listifiable, I guess.
Danny
Yeah. And it's not just where they're sitting. It's the ones that are going to eat. There's a lot of fish sitting in certain spots that I'll see people fishing out all day that I wouldn't even consider fishing. I want the ones that are eating, not the ones that are just down deep hanging out. So I like shallow, and I like fast water.
Katie
You were talking about the snow melt making the water really cold at times. Were you bringing that up in terms of safety for just being in the water when it's really cold? Or do you notice the fish behave a certain way under a certain temperature? And what have you noticed there?
Danny
Yeah, fish are definitely-- they're cold-blooded, so a little more lethargic. And just a couple of degrees of water temp really will influence their entire diet and really gets them moving. It doesn't need to be a big change, but just a couple of degrees really speeds their metabolism up. And they respond by eating more.
Katie
Are you carrying a thermometer to check water temps? Or are you just kind of gauging it by feel?
Danny
No, I used to. And then I realized I'd have three thermometers, and I'd tell you three very different things. I don't know how accurate a lot of these thermometers are. But yeah, I don't-- kind of can tell when my toes are cold or something.
Katie
How much of a difference are you seeing in terms of daily cycles on some of these rivers? Because I'm in hydrology, so we're actually watching stream gauges and stuff. And I'm seeing it on a graph. But you're talking about the peak. But the peak of the season is going to also be interrupted by a lot of little daily fluctuations of when it gets warm and there's a lot of snow on the ground, you're going to get a bump. Do you notice daily fluctuations like that with the fish? Do they respond to those little daily bumps in the snowmelt?
Danny
Yeah, and what a lot of people don't realize, it's where the snowmelt is coming from. So let's say it's really warm and the snow is melting more. But where that snow is melting might be five miles upstream from you. So sometimes like a river, even though it gets warmer, it might actually drop as the day goes on because last night's was the last night's low. When it was the coldest, the snow melt was the worst that might be catching up to where you're at at noon. And so you might actually have a dropping river, even though it's warming during the day and then it might peak at night, but yeah. So I really get into stuff like that. I feel like a lot of people don't notice little things like, oh, it's warm. The snow must be highest right now. It's like, well, yeah, but that snow is melting, you know, way up at 12,000 feet. not here. Um, so it takes a while to get there. And in some spots, it's kind of fun on the river. You can tell like, all right, it's going to drop here, but then it'll start rising here at three o'clock. And, but yeah, I love following the graphs. You know, I always feel like I love to saltwater fish and those guides are so good with the tides and the snowmelts, nothing like that river flows are nothing as complex as tides, but it's really fun to follow. I mean, the background of my phone is all just bookmarked every different river and different gaging stations on it. And then the tailwaters, you know, are really different do, like when they're influencing the flows and that can really influence those migratory fish in the spring and falls too. When they're more comfortable, when they might come in, when they might leave, when they drop it, you know, all those things. So yes, river flows are everything.
Katie
Tell me more about that, kind of tracking the tailwater stuff in the migratory fish.
Danny
I mean, a good bump in flow will just keep the fish bringing them in more and when they'll just be more comfortable too and more willing to eat and spread out a little bit more. coming out of the lake, they're pretty spooky if the river is super low.
Katie
And are these migratory fish you're talking about rainbows?
Danny
Yeah, rainbows.
Katie
I'm picturing the browns aren't really migrating during the time of year that this is happening.
Danny
No, browns are more in the fall. Yeah, right now it's like rainbows, cutbows, cutthroat, spring swan and fish. And obviously we never target them on the reds. Just got to say that so no one ever tries to accuse or hate. Yeah, I do agree that some rivers should be closer in times a year in spawning runs or certain obvious pools should be should be marked off. I'm all for protecting those fish, but there certainly are also very ethical ways you can target these fish. It's not like they're coming in and spawning right. You can get them in those deeper spots and they're the same like we were talking about back in the Great Lakes. I mean, these are really the same fish as those, which genetically are the same fish as steelhead on the coast, but a steelhead definitely lives in the ocean. I don't call these lake run fish steelhead. I mean, you, Your personality changes when you're running away from seals in the ocean. Yeah, migratory fish to me are really fun, not knowing if they're there as they move. I kind of lost. What was the question again?
Katie
I was just wondering, when you're watching the flows, how that's affecting your strategy for fishing for migratory fish?
Danny
Definitely. Then when they drop them, I almost feel like, yes, never touch fish on spawning roads, but But also when the river gets too low, it's just not, like some of those spawning fish, I don't want them to be like a sit and duck or encourage them to be unread. So when you get a big drop, which we actually had today on one of the stretches I got, a lot of those lake fish will just head right back to that reservoir. Or if they haven't, I would kind of feel bad. So we're going to different spots the next couple of days, unless Denver water changes their mind and gives us more water. But it's all, you know, again, it's all managed for downstream water demand. Like the free zones out here, you can really predict based on snowpack and temps. The tailwaters, it's all for downstream water demand and water calls. You know, I mean, Colorado, most of the headwaters for the country, like the Arkansas River, the Rio Grande, the Platte, all these, their headwaters are in Colorado. So you have to deal with whether reservoirs have been filling in because of extra sediment or agricultural demands downstream, or some reservoirs being too full, or some, it's just crazy. But it's really getting harder and harder to protect because it's all based on water demand now. It's not like, "Oh, hey, we had a lot of snow this year. The river flows are going to be great." Yes, on the free zones they will, but on the tailwaters, no. Denver water might be like, "Well, hey, this reservoir's low. I want to fill it up and I want to save this water for August because it might be more valuable in August." And it's just, it's very frustrating. They've definitely managed the reservoirs. Not to my liking, but obviously they are in the business of moving water for their customers. So it's not about the fish.
Katie
Yeah, it's kind of interesting that I feel like tailwaters get a reputation of being predictable. That's what's good about them is that you can kind of fish them year round, and they're probably all going to have fishable flows most of the time, whereas freestones are-- they're at the mercy of what the weather does. But on the flip side of that is what we're talking about here is the freestones kind of behave in a predictable manner.
Danny
Yes. A lot more predictable.
Katie
When it gets warm, more snowmelt is going to happen. When it cools down, snowmelt is going to stop. And like you said, it might be delayed. I've seen them peak at 6 AM because they got hot the day before, and then overnight that water is coming down, and it peaks at 6 AM, and then goes down throughout the day, which like you said, is kind of counterintuitive. But it's pretty predictable. It happens every day. Like 6 AM it peaks, and then it goes down throughout the day. And there might be fluctuations in quite how high it gets or how low it gets, but it's like following a pretty predictable pattern. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting difference from like the norm that people think of with like tailwaters being really stable. It's like they're kind of more unpredictable in some ways.
Danny
Definitely. And I think nowadays, obviously, there's a lot more issue with the west being so dry. and you hear about the river flows, or I mean the water levels at Lake Mead and just along the Colorado River all throughout there. And that plays a huge role. 'Cause I also think, I mean, it's amazing. A lot of people don't realize how many tunnels and stuff there are out here where Denver Water can collect their water from where maybe it falls on the West Slope, but they have these really old senior water rights that allow you to move water just underground through a tunnel to the front range. And then there's also water call issues. And I do think there's a lot of, if you don't use it, you lose it. So maybe they wanna move water pretty aggressive here so they don't lose this water right in future years. And I do certainly think, unfortunately, there's a lot of just politics and decision making that certainly do affect our our fishing or like to let these reservoirs fill and then spill. So we might not get run off to like mid July on some of these tailwaters where, you know, it's like crazy low now where I just don't get it. I mean, I get what they're doing, but I wish the fish were more involved in the decision, but that the fish can't speak up and say any of these things. I try to speak up for them, but yeah, I don't know if any of these changes will ever get made.
Katie
A couple last questions about spring, and this might be kind of specific to Colorado, so apologies to anyone listening who's not in kind of this vicinity of the country, but roughly when do you see runoff starting, peaking, and then kind of what would you consider the end of runoff in like summer conditions at that point?
Danny
So that's where it really depends on elevation and then the whole freestone tailwater. I mean, the free stones, I think you're right on with like that May period and the last week of May, then maybe they'll start drop. I think on some of these tailwaters, it's really tough. It seems like they want to let these reservoirs fill more and then save the water for later in the summer. So you might see the highest flows of the year in July or even August on some of these tailwaters now, which makes no sense. But that's, you know, they can do that when they hold the water behind these big walls. So the free stones, yeah, I'd say May-- there can be a period in May where things might be borderline unfishable on a lot of the free stones. But luckily, you can go to the tailwaters, or when they start dropping, they'll turn on.
Katie
Yeah, there's a fine line between it's high and muddy, let's put on a squirmy worm, and oh my god, this water-- there's no fish left in this water. They're gone.
Danny
Yeah, and you got to be safe, too. It can be a little dangerous in some of those spots, especially with clients. That's kind of fun on some of the spots to take a chance on maybe a river that many others don't think it's fishable.
Katie
And how about hatches? This might also be kind of specific to Colorado, but having grown up on the East Coast, maybe you'll have some insights to some spring hatches out that way as well. Like what kinds of things are you throwing when you're not specifically stuck doing like a big heavy stone fly and you can kind of get a little bit more into the hatches?
Danny
I mean, for spring, the big thing are those bluing olives. I feel like once they start going, it's really spring. should be any day here now. Yeah, that's just the fish must think they taste better or something. They really like bluing olives. And it's a very active nymph, you know, before it hatches, it's moving around a lot. It's in the faster water. It's getting dislodged a ton. You certainly will get dry fly opportunities for them. But there's a lot of good fishing before the hatch, too, where you can, you know, get them subsurface and on emerges. So I feel like, I mean, they say there's midges year round And you certainly can get some small midges hatches, but with the cold water temp too, you don't see them rising as much. But yeah, blueing olives would be the first one of the year. And then after runoff, uh, you know, a lot of times the big famous one on like the Colorado river is the salmon fly. Unfortunately that happens a lot of times once that water temp coincides with on that river, like middle of runoff. So you don't get as many dry fly opportunities, but again, same deal. They, a salmon fly, especially like stone fly, they don't emerge, you know, they crawl to the bank so those can get dislodged and some great fishing before the hatch. But, uh, I don't know, summer out here, my favorite stuff with the green Drake, when you can get some Drake hatches. Um, this dog that keeps licking me is named Drake after my favorite bug. Uh, and summer's just cool. You, I feel like that's the best dry fly fishing.
Katie
Yeah.
Danny
Cause you can, a lot of, you can force fish to eat a dry fly, but you got to fish dry flies, you know, like, it's not like you need to see a fish rising to go catch them on a dry fly. So it's fun, but I think a lot of people are like, Oh, I'm not tying on a dry fly. I haven't seen them rise. And it's like, "Oh man, I'll fish two dry flies. Let's do double dry." And they'll come up and get them, you know, and because there's just more stuff going around. There's hoppers getting blown in, there's ants, there's random PMDs and caddis all the time. You know, they're all the time in the summer, caddis, and like I said, some bigger drakes and stuff. And the fish, they're always looking up. I mean, they're looking forward and they're up. They're never looking down really. So it's like, just if you get a good drift, you can make some fishy dries, even if they're not naturally rising.
Katie
Do you ever hit the Mother's Day caddis hatch? I feel like that kind of coincides with often some runoff water still. Yeah,
Danny
definitely. I mean, the Arkansas out here is kind of the most famous part for the Mother's Day caddis hatch where our commercial use permits are in the arc. It's not as much caddisey, more tailwatery, but it's really fun to go and fun fish. And because a lot of times with that Mother's Day caddis hatch, you also have really good blue-winged olive hatches too, and they'll eat those. I feel like they rise to those better. You know, caddis, they kind of skate like as their wings dry. So like you can get them swinging out flies really well. But if you want that classic drift, it's almost like put fish of caddis and then a bunch of tibet and then a little bluing off the back and they'll take a bluing pretty well. I really like to fish two dry flies. If I'm fishing one, might as well fish two.
Katie
Yeah, no, I feel the same way. I'm that way with the dry dropper. And I've heard some people say that fishing a dry dropper is fishing neither one as effectively as it could be by itself. And I'm like, I don't really care. Like I just
Danny
It's the most fun way to fish. Double dry or dry dropper is my favorite way to fish.
Katie
An indicator is just a wasted spot that a fly could be sitting In my opinion. Well, you know, when the water's right, of course.
Danny
Yeah. You can fish those really well. Um, and you kind of use your cast to control the sink rate. It's great. I really do a lot of double dry and I, you gotta do a lot of distance between the two, cause then they can land at two different current speeds. And a lot of times that fish is going to hit it pretty quick after. So even one, if one's getting dragged down, like in the client kind of can't do a reach cast, that other one's still floating well, you know, but you gotta do a big distance. I'm talking like two and a half feet between my two dries. And I fish loop knots to dries. Some of my buddies make fun of me for that. But I think it gives it a little more wiggle, lets it free spin a little bit more, floats a little better. So yeah, I like the double dry.
Katie
What's your strategy on choosing two dry flies to go together? Do you choose them at random? Or is there like a one's big to attract attention, and the other one's small to try to get an eat? Or is there any kind of—
Danny
I mean, I guess nothing’s really random. I don't switch flies all that much. I really like-- if I'm doing double dries, I really like Amy. Amy's aunt, we just call her Amy. She's a great fly and pretty big. I like my flies to float. I hate, if I'm fishing dry flies, I want to see it. It's such a pet peeve of mine when my flies aren't floating well. So I will use a ton of float in order to fish flies that float. Chubbies are obviously super popular out here, but sometimes I think people fish them too big where the fish will miss the fly a lot or they'll kind of push it away. So I'll fish smaller chubbies. And then, you know, you have bugs. If drakes are hatching, oh, you gotta have a drake on there. But just like an Amy or a chubby just about anywhere and then maybe a more accurate fly like a Drake off the back like a Drake imitation.
Katie
One last question about spring fishing specifically is like what kind of day or what time of day are you trying to get out there and would you say is like the best because you know I feel like a lot of people think of you know get out there at the crack of dawn and I'm not a dawn like angler. I'm out there like in the middle of the day no matter what time of year it is but like you know in the spring what would you consider kind of like the prime time to be out there.
Danny
So, I mean, it's so much depends on just going back to the free zone or tailwater. So I mean, the tailwater, those water temps are pretty consistent, but it's also like, you know, these it's cold at night out here. I mean, what? It was probably like 65 in the day today, but it's going to be in the twenties at night. I don't want to freeze either, but I mean, everything to me also, I let the other people. I got to figure out the other piece. So let's say it's a weekend. I might start a little bit earlier to lock down a good spot at the start and then and kind of wait and move around, see where other people go. That's more on a tailwater though. On a freestone, the water temps, the water temps kind of match like what the graph would look like for the flow. You know, they'll kind of have peaks and valleys more throughout the day. So water temp becomes more of a rule. Where on a tailwater, yes, they'll warm up a little bit throughout the day, but not as much. So you can kind of start a little earlier on the tailwaters versus the freestones.
Katie
Well, just to wrap up, where can people find you If they want to book a trip with you, if they're in the area, or just find you online, or reach out for any reason. Where can people do that?
Danny
Yeah, so my company is Colorado Trout Hunters. The business Instagram is just that, Colorado Trout Hunters. Hunters with an S at the end. And we are not a fly shop. We are just an outfitting service, which I love. And like I said, the South Platte's our home river. We have a ton of different options. And then my personal one is Delta Trout Force. Delta Trout Force on Instagram is like my personal one, but I'm pretty good on both of them. I mean, I definitely don't really like social media, but it's kind of a necessary evil, you know. We do book a ton of trips because of it and it's free marketing. So I use them and I'm pretty active on both of those, but our website, Colorado Trout Hunters, you know, I'm a small business. I do all the phones, emails myself. So, and I never let them go more than today. So if you email through that, you will get a response. And if you don't check your spam folder or you sent me your email address wrong. So many people do the return email address and it bounces, they typed it in wrong.
Katie
Yeah, I've struggled with that too. Like someone sends me an email, like it didn't go through and I don't know how to get in touch with you now.
Danny
Sometimes you can guess, you'll like see like, oh, this like S should be before the T and not after. And I try, I go back, I don't wanna turn down business, but sometimes it's like, well, they get mad, they don't get a response. It's like, dude, you entered this wrong.
Katie
(laughing) Well, Danny, thank you for joining me today. I know I just kind of reached out out of the blue, so I appreciate you taking the time to do this Hopefully we've got some warmer weather in our future, although I think tonight it might be kind of crappy.
Danny
Yeah, I think we might get some snow tonight, but I love it. I love the different crazy weather things and again, winners adjust. The fish are there, they gotta eat, we can make it happen.
Katie
Yeah, keeps things interesting. Well, it's been great meeting you and maybe we'll run into each other like, you know, on the street one of these days. Just walking the dog or whatever.
Danny
I'll be the one with the two bad dogs. Well, one dog's good, one dog's bad, but the bad dog's not mine, that's my wife's.
Katie
That's right. Well, thank you again and we'll talk soon.
Danny
All right. Thanks, Katie.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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