Ep 140: Lessons Learned and Catching Up on Troutman, Ültroüt, and Lucifish Runs, with Andrew Todd
Andrew Todd is a regular on the show, also appearing in episode 1 and episode 121. He is the creator of the Rocky Mountain Flyathlon and the nonprofit Running Rivers. This past summer, Andrew and I completed an Ültroüt (Andrew) and Troutwoman (me) together, and Andrew also completed a Lucifish run a few months later. In this episode, we catch up on how things went and lessons we learned along the way.
Running Rivers: https://runningrivers.org
Instagram: @flyathlon
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 140 with Andrew Todd on lessons learned and catching up on Troutman, Ultrout, and Lucifish runs. all right there we go all right well welcome back. this is your I think third appearance on the show.
Andrew
This is number three.
Katie
One not too long ago. During which you presented me with a 12% beer.
Andrew
I threw down the gauntlet.
Katie
Which I highly resisted. But you suckered me into it. And earlier this year I finished my first Troutman, troutwoman, I guess. And you finished an Ultrout.
Andrew
We are very PC. We've got Troutwoman buckles, as you know.
Katie
Trout person. Yes. And you finished an Ultrout that trip, right?
Andrew
Yes, because we, the goal that trip was the Lucifish but we got to we needed the six species which was a grayling and we got to the grayling lake at like three in the afternoon on a hot afternoon and I saw maybe two fish come up out in the center of the lake which was a good you know hundred yards out to the center so I contemplated swimming for a hot minute but ultimately in that moment I thought Like if a grayling actually grabbed on to my line right now, I would have to run an additional 18 miles. And I was okay in that moment with calling it quits at 50. So it was a downgrade from the initial goal, but that's part of it. And it's totally legal, by the way.
Katie
Cool. I guess we'll just kind of talk about this trip and then the one you just did. Where, spoilers, you came back and called through Lucifish.
Andrew
Redemption tour, yep. We got it done beginning of September.
Katie
Yeah, the first one was in July, right?
Andrew
Yeah, that was July 7th, which as you probably recall, it was a bit of, there was a whole lot of America up on Grand Mesa. Lots of getting rolled by ATVs and there were some dangerous moments out on the road. But it was a lot of fun to be up there and see so many different people out there enjoying that outdoor space. But that was a grind. I don't know about you, but it got hot at one point. It was certainly dusty. The fishing was forgiving in many locations, but difficult in others. I mean, what had you experienced?
Katie
yeah so maybe let's start let's start I kind of want to hear how this whole thing got planned sure and then maybe we can just like tell each other because I actually don't know you know what your day was like we crossed paths a handful of times but most of the time I had no idea where anyone else was so we can recap that but I want to start with just these these weekends seem to be a thing you know there's a group that yeah you know gets an email and they they converged to do stupid things together essentially the stupid things thread yeah and I somehow got added to this list and you had guilted me in with a 12 beer but I had the the good fortune of not having to plan any of it you know I showed up and you had routes planned so you know how did this come to be how do you plan these excursions how do you find the routes you're gonna do?
Andrew
so Troutman, Troutwoman you can do a number of places around the state because there's there's more than a handful places where you can you can connect a a grand slam or or three three trout and a non-trout species within 26 miles because that's the challenge is compressing it within the distance if you're driving places you can get a grand slam no problem but doing it within 26 over your own using your own legs is is the what makes it challenging and so but there's a lot of places now that we've identified in the state that you can do that. Grand Mesa came up because we had done Ultrout the previous year, which is five. And then lucifish, which we were attempting on July 7th is sixth species. And that gets harder. You got to string together a lot more fish. And so that's where Grand Mesa, which for those listeners who don't know grand mesa is sort of this big mesa top that's got hundreds of lakes I think that parks and wildlife puts different fish in each of these lakes like a playground yeah or or I have equated it to like willy Wonka's chocolate factory where they just do whatever they want up there and so as long as you have good intel it it makes for an easy easier because you you know where the fish are and they still have to eat and you still have to cover 50 66 miles whatever whatever the distance is but the fishing is more a more concrete challenge kind of predictive more more predictable than other places where if you're going into a river system that has four species in it but you you don't know where they are within it
Katie
that makes it more challenging to know when and where to stop or like if they're all in the same body of water you can't control what it takes your line you can kind of you know right adjust but at the end of the day I think having one species per body of water is helpful because once you get it you you know you can leave you're like I don't should I try for some more so that's kind of a double-edged sword with a you know having a lake or river full of a bunch of different species like you could catch different one every cast but You could spend two hours there.
Andrew
And that's the fun part for me. I'm super interested in maps, like physical maps. And so I've got a physical map of Grand Mesa that I've sharpied up with what fish is in each lake. And then I go to Cotrex and I try to string together a course that checks all the boxes, elevation, gain, distance, and hits those various. And when you're going 26 miles or 50 miles, you can often double up. you can go by multiple lakes that have a rainbow trout in it. So if you are unsuccessful or if nothing's coming up at one, you've always got a backup option. So it's really the planning, I think, that for me is, I guess it's more fun than grinding out 66 miles. The planning, sitting around a map with a couple beers and trying to figure out what you're going to do. But then when you're bringing other people into it, like you, you, you, you put your faith in me. Uh, some of the other people that, that are out there, Katie Mazzia being one of them doesn't always a hundred percent trust. Like she's always second guessing. She's like, should we stop here? Cause you're running by on Grand Mesa. You're running by all sorts of like fishy looking water, but you're, you're putting your faith in like, oh no, that's another brook trout pond. I've already got a brook trout. So you're moving on. And Katie, I've run with her both Ultrouts now and she's prone to like you know like a shiny thing over there like oh hey should we go fish that no no we got to keep going and I love running with her because she a she's more fit with me that than me and so she keeps me moving forward but she's also a lot of fun to talk to as as you're out there
Katie
that's what I find to be the biggest challenge is how to string all this together and I agree with you I like that part I love looking at maps and planning things. And I've thought about just, I've made Troutman routes before that I've just like saved as, you know, I could use this. I should just start sending them to you. Just like, hey, here's a possibility. I think Katie has something going for her though in that that strategy occasionally really pays off. For sure. On our route, there was that little culvert coming out of one of the lakes that had cutthroats just stacked up in it. And like every cast they'd take one, it wouldn't really show up on a map is like oh you really want to go to this little concrete ditch coming out of the lake but you know she wanted to go check it out
Andrew
and it does it does take creativity when you're out there because you can have the best plans in the world and then you get back there and you're like this this lake is dead yeah with that great it wasn't dead it was just turned off and then what do you do you gotta you gotta adapt and grand mesa is real forgiving in that way that there are many options for because there also was a sucker out on the course that I guess we could have caught did anyone catch one I think Brian Powell did they were in the inlet to Bonham they were all at the bottom okay I don't know how to sucker fish so and I was I was done at that point and and we had planned on a second attempt in September so I was content with checking the 50 bucks again and and you know tabling for another another day which which we did in September and that was a totally different watershed a more tried and true Troutman course with the option so back in 2022 I think Bryon Powell did completed fin or not insanity that's to come but lucifish where he caught a smallmouth bass in Salida so we knew that smallmouth bass was in in the town of Salida and then we knew there are five species along chalk creek including the grand slam plus a grayling okay and so we knew it was doable so I designed a course that had us starting in the chalk creek drainage running up to the top to catch the grayling, catching all four on the way down. And then overnight running to Salida via the Colorado trail. Um, and then fishing at, we, we gave ourselves with the early September, you don't have as much daylight as you do in July. But, so we had to plan our timing so that we had at least an hour or two on Sunday morning to have daylight to fish for, for the smallmouth. And, And so that's what we did. We caught smallmouth at like, I don't know, it was like 7.30 in the morning. And then you still, of course, have the 16.66% beer you got to then drink at 7.30 in the morning, which was an experience.
Katie
Fun way to start the day.
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. It'll wake you up in the morning for sure. But fortunately, one of our board members, Randy, has a house in Salida. So we were able to get a ride back to his house after, you know, a 17% beer after 66 miles of exercises is like a swift kick to the head. So we had a ride back, safe ride back to his house and then slept for four or five hours before, you know, packing up and getting out there. But it felt great to get that done. I've never gone that distance. Didn't know I was capable of it. There were moments during it. I wasn't sure I was capable of it. Guy I was running with, Kevin Browning, there were moments I didn't think he was capable of it, but together we gutted it out and now thinking about what's next.
Katie
Do you think there is a next?
Andrew
Oh, there most certainly is a next. So the fourth and final, maybe, tier we're calling FinSanity, all caps with an exclamation point at the end, which is 10 fish, 100 miles, 10,000 feet of climbing, and a 20% beer in 48 hours, which I think is almost easier.
Katie
Because you've got two full days.
Andrew
You've got two full days. So doing the math, like we finished in 23 hours and we've gone 67 miles. So you've got to go 33 more, but it's four more fish species. So that's where it's like really hard is to string together 10 fish species that you can link together via 100 mile path
Katie
I feel like it almost has to come down into the front range like like you need to hit a bluegill pond
Andrew
and well so it certainly involves warm water fish but right now we're targeting grand mesa again but starting down in grand inner near grand junction where you can get a bass bluegill black crappie maybe a carp and then up top you've got the option for the six or seven stuff
Katie
now tell me again why a tiger trout counts and a splake counts but a cutbow does not. is it because a cutbow is almost subjective in a way that tiger trout and splake are less? like when you see a tiger trout you're like that's a tiger trout where you see a cutbow you're like it's a rainbow that has a little bit of a something going on up front
Andrew
like so so the challenge comes in like I would count a cutbow but not if you're counting a cutthroat and or a rainbow in addition are cutbows still fertile can they yeah so they can yeah but there's a spectrum of there's no spectrum with the tiger trout it's a it's a hybrid it's not reproducing that's what I mean yeah so but the cutbow can And so you can have various degrees of cutthroat versus rainbow in a given. So it's hard to fully differentiate between the cutbow and either of the parent species.
Katie
Like if a rainbow and a cutthroat got together and made a cutbow, and then that cutbow kept only breeding with cutthroats for the next five generations, it's like basically a cutthroat again. Whereas a tiger trout, like it stops, the buck stops there. That is, it's a combo.
Andrew
Right. It is what it is. Yeah. So it's more easily identifiable as a distinct hybrid versus the cutbow, which could be any. And so the example of the splake, which is also a spectrum of hybridization between the lake trout and the brook trout, I felt uncomfortable on Grand Mesa. So for fin sanity, I will count the brook trout, but not a brook trout and a splake, because it's just, it's too difficult sometimes to identify the differences. Particularly if there's, you know, various cycles of reproduction in there, it can be tough to differentiate them versus the sterile tiger trout hybrid.
Katie
So you could count, if you caught a brook trout or a splake, you could count that as a species, but then the other one is basically... Yeah, you can't do both. You can do either one as a thing.
Andrew
Which makes it more challenging, but I mean, we got to have rules.
Katie
I mean, this isn't just the Wild West out here.
Andrew
Well, you could have, it also works for warmwater species where you can have a bluegill and green sunfish, but they hybridize. And so the hybrid sunfish is a tough situation here too. So I want clear cut like, hey, this is a bean we can count here as a separate entity. right so it's not so you know so it doesn't feel like you know you're asked you don't have to put an asterisk like it may have been a mostly brookie I don't know and then I counted a brookie too so that's that's that's how I feel about hybrids not that hybrid fish are bad in any way it's just you got to have rules
Katie
yeah I mean this is this is an establishment of law and order
Andrew
that's what I mean come on
Katie
When I think of you I think of law and order
Andrew
this is real serious you got to have rules
Katie
Back to Grand Mesa, we can kind of like recap how that went. But my two cents for the future is maybe July 4th is not the best time to be on Redneck Capitol Hill.
Andrew
I would second that observation.
Katie
It was mostly dirt roads, which is nice at times because you've got like a nice wide area. Like I ran with some folks for a little bit. It's nice to have that space. but the side-by-sides just, I inhaled so many pounds of dust that day. The lakes were super busy too, or at least some of them were, which it'd be nice to have a little more room to spread out.
Andrew
Yeah, like ironically, Randy, who ended up running the Troutman course, he was stressed out about the Ultrout course because there were road miles early in the morning, And that was sort of unavoidable to get the elevation and we had to kind of run up onto the Mesa. And those were the easiest, less, you know, contentious miles on the whole day because it was in the middle of the night. And we saw maybe two or three cars as we ran this three mile stretch of paved road up onto the Mesa. So versus like three in the afternoon on the way to Silver Lake, which was supposed to be that that Grayling Lake. I had a line of probably 40 ATVs that just blew by all at once. And I was like, I thought about throwing the towel in that moment because it was just like you said, it was difficult to breathe, difficult to see. You thought you were going to get hit.
Katie
Just the noise. In some way, you want this to be kind of a relaxing, almost meditative, just get in the groove and go. And when you've got ATVs and side-by-sides roaring past you every five minutes, it's like, well, I can't really get in the zone here. I'm just kind of trying to breathe and trying to keep the sound out.
Andrew
And I will say Chalk Creek is similar, but not to the same extreme as Grand Mesa. There are ATVs back in there, and it's on old mining roads to get up to Pomeroy Lakes. But it's less, it was less populated than 4th of July weekend on Grand Meas. Yeah, that was a bad choice. Yeah. Planning wise, but we still had fun.
Katie
Yeah, we did it. So tell me about your day that day. Because like I said, we were kind of on different courses. We overlapped a little bit and there was a lot of like crossing paths with people. But for the most part, at least from my experience, I was alone most of the day. Yeah. And I assume that once you get going, you're not going at the same pace as everybody. So I only saw you a handful of times throughout the day. But tell me how your ultra went.
Andrew
Yeah, I'm trying to remember. I probably won't remember the specific names of the lakes. But we started at, I want to say, like 4 in the morning. And it was kind of halfway up the side of the mesa. We parked Kevin's car. And we ran up about three miles and then back to the car and then back up again just to get that elevation in. Because once you get on top, there's some up and down, but it's not enough to get to the 66 that we would have needed to do Luce Fish. And so that was the strategy was to get in when it was dark and cool to get in a lot of the elevation.
Katie
Were you just walking up and running down or were you?
Andrew
Yeah. So with 24 hours, you've, you've got the ability to, to walk a lot of it. That's, that's the reality of what we did up, up Chalk Creek too, is you're walking a lot and certainly overnight on, on the Chalk Creek one, where we were successful. You're doing in your head, you're doing the math of like, if I go three miles an hour. So you're watching, you're saying that was an 18 minute mile. I'm banking time, you know? And once you've got five fish in hand, you're like, okay, now you can really do the map. And so that was kind of what we were trying to do early in the morning was get a lot of mileage in while it was dark and cool and elevation while it was cool. And then we went up and we caught a brown trout at Ward Lake, I think, which is right off the highway. There's rainbows on one side, and then there was this tiny little creek where the day before, I was nervous because we fished it the day before, and it was super skinny, and these browns were very, very spooky. So that was part of the strategy, too, was to hit them right at dawn so you didn't have the high sun, and they were less spooky, which ended up working out. And then we went up a little bit higher to the, I'm blanking on the name of the pond, but you could have walked across it with the number of rainbows that were in there. But you also would have been knocked down by the number of mosquitoes that were flying around. And for listeners who have never been up onto Grand Mesa in the summer, the mosquito is the state bird up there. It can be pretty overwhelming around some of the lakes. I didn't find that around all the lakes, but certainly the, this lake with the rainbows was right by the visitor center. And so we were just getting crushed by mosquitoes and of all the fishing all day long, save for the grayling, which was impossible. I could not get a, a rainbow to take, even though they were everywhere.
Katie
Were they rising?
Andrew
Oh yeah.
Katie
They just didn't wait, wait, you had, you know, I, I don't know.
Andrew
I was cursed in, in that 30 minute period or whatever. And so Kevin, who I was running with, caught one right away. And then that's the other challenge with running with someone is you're like, they're watching their watch and you're like struggling to catch a stalker rainbow. And so there's a little bit of embarrassment and then you feel like you're holding them up. And, but, I turned him loose and then I, like, as soon as he left, I caught a rainbow and then went past, where you guys had started.
Katie
I can't remember the Eggers or something.
Andrew
yeah Eggleston yeah that's accurate so I caught a cutthroat in Eggleston saw you guys and then we went further east over to a couple other ponds where I caught a tiger trout and a brook trout pretty quickly and so that's when I'm like game on you know and so that's when we headed over towards Bonham and I went up to silver lake and that's when I realized we were we were done Because Kevin, who was ahead of me at that point, because he hadn't struggled to catch a soccer rainbow, he was coming down. And I was like, did you get a Grayling? And he said, no. You know, they're nowhere. There's no cruisers. There's no anything there.
Katie
I think I was with him when he was there. Because I showed up and he was there. And he's like, it's not happening.
Andrew
Yeah, it's a losing battle. So he was headed back to the inlet of Bonham where there are Grayling and there are suckers. fortunately for my pride he didn't catch a grayling or a sucker either so we sort of collectively decided to call it after 50 because we were planning to to run overnight together and I think he was thinking the same thing that to catch to catch a fish and then have to go another 18 miles after getting blasted all day with with smoke and and dust was was not going to be a pleasant experience
Katie
I feel like you have to be in a good state of mind going into that. you can't when you've got 18 miles left and you still got difficult fishing you've got to be like things are going really well I want to keep going you can't like talk yourself into it when you're like I just want this to be over
Andrew
which I will say large high abv beers help with that mid-run so we did something we at the chalk creek where we were successful in doing loose fish we were brainstorming on the way up there's a movie called inception which is a dream within a dream within a dream and I think there's a fourth level but we were like okay let's do finception which is a Troutman within an Ultrout within a lucifish so we ended up drinking a 12 percent beer before the 12 hour mark because we already had our five fish. So we had the four plus the distance, drank the beer. And then we ended up drinking a 15 plus percent beer at about 18 hours when we had the 50 miles in. And then we hit the 17 percent beers at the finish. And it really helped.
Katie
You think it's like the carbs helping you or think it's just the mental, like you just need something that kind of gets you loosened up and in a mindset where you're like ah screw it let's just do something stupid
Andrew
a little bit of both I think it's like I was equating it in the moment to like pouring white gas on a fire where it just like it blows up in your face and you're like what have I done but then it's gone it it you know it it's the calories I think your body needs at that point and that the alcohol must just you must just burn through it quickly because I think we didn't make sense for you know half an hour walking down this this road into Salida at 3 30 in the morning after the 15 percent beer but but then you're you're loosened again and you're ready to ready to roll
Katie
I feel like I've noticed that on a much smaller scale obviously during Middle Creek where you get to the top of the hill and there's like a swig of whiskey I feel like for the first three or four minutes after I do that I'm like what have I done and then something changes where I'm like this is pretty nice like now I feel the good effects without all the bad effects and I'm kind of like excited to be here again
Andrew
yes and I hope the real Dr. Todd is not listening to to this because I'm sure there's medical reasons not to take shots at whiskey or drink 17 or 15 beers mid-run but I will say it helped me to get to the finish line on that particular day. I don't know that finception will be repeated
Katie
well what about the finsanity finception where you've got to do another one yeah spread out over 48 hours
Andrew
that might make sense because we'd be doing a 12 and a 15 one day it's like one beer every half day one really strong beer every half day right I never heard anybody as far as the research shows the research the science yeah science has never proven that that's a real problem but we'll we we got to get to the point where I'm convinced in my own mind that I can travel 100 miles even in two days so yeah I've got a got a plan to try to do that end of June next year so I got a pretty aggressive spring planned I got a 50 mile run actual race I don't do a whole lot of other people's races but I got one out near my kid is in college in California near la so there's a 50 mile race in in January out there that we're gonna do no fishing not gonna fish slap it I don't think I can oh like there's just no fishing yeah it's like real high and dry in this particular part I think I'll research it and try to see if there's any opportunity to fish slap it but yeah so and then a couple other things later in the spring before trying this and at the end of June
Katie
how does the like build up to something that long work because obviously you want to do long runs to get ready for that but you don't want to destroy your body by doing equally crazy things you know leading up to it too much and and break your body down so like how do you how do you build while not breaking yourself down?
Andrew
That's a real good question. I usually build a spreadsheet that I populate with like target runs during a given week and then I never follow it. I try to get in as much mileage as I can. I think from what I've learned from actual long distance athletes like Bryon Powell you want to do back-to-back runs on a on a weekend back-to-back long runs to try to get that mileage and you can spread it out over a couple days so the past couple years I've done some of that where I'm getting 30 35 miles in a weekend split over the two days but then ultimately I think it's just time on time on your feet so you can't you can't roll out of bed and go that distance without trashing your feet so as long as you're getting out this last year I was averaging maybe 40 miles a week
Katie
I'm actually yeah I'm surprised and impressed with like you can do these 50, 60 plus mile things but like I watch you on Garmin and I see you doing a lot of like three mile runs you know a lot of like very doable things during the week
Andrew
that's all that is reasonable with work and I like to think I can get up at five in the morning and you know drink a cup of coffee and go run 10 miles but that rarely happens so I think for in preparation for this summer I'm gonna have to up my mileage significantly yeah so hopefully keep track of me and if I'm not getting those those runs in midweek maybe shoot me a text
Katie
i'll just comment on them on Garmin be really passive aggressive. yeah it's been a while, oh that wasn't very long
Andrew
yeah that'll work if I know there are eyes on on what I'm doing that might help
Katie
I actually really enjoy watching the Garmin like news feed because it's so it's so pared down it's like eight of my friends yeah and so it's not all the garbage strava yeah oh I don't use strava so I don't know but I just mean like social media in general it's just like a bunch of garbage and mostly the people you don't know and then I get on Garmin and I'm just like oh someone's going for a hike I should go for a hike someone's in Hawaii yeah yeah it's fun so it's just like I don't know it's it's like real people doing real stuff and it's all like people I care about and stuff that I want to be doing so it's like you know gets me off my ass
Andrew
yeah I agree and the the other thing about garmin that you know I think, I don't know about you. Actually I think I do know about you, watching you on Garmin.
Katie
Uh-oh.
Andrew
The little features they have in there that give you points for doing things. Oh. It's so motivating.
Katie
I am a sucker for gamification.
Andrew
You get a two-point for whatever. Just getting up and doing an early run on a specific day.
Katie
They give you points.
Andrew
Oh, man.
Katie
Yeah, no, I use that. And I know I'm susceptible. This is how I am with a couple things. I know I'm susceptible to streaks and points and badges and stuff. So I try to harness it for good. I could go down the Candy Crush route of I just play stupid games and waste my money on my phone, earning some streak on that. Instead, I try to funnel it toward Duolingo. So I have an 800-day language learning streak. And I follow Garmin badges.
Andrew
What language?
Katie
Spanish. I just practice. I speak it decently, but I just want to keep up with it because I don't use it very often.
Andrew
And it's got that really rewarding ding noise that it makes when you get something right. My older daughter did do, or I think probably still does out of college. She's probably Spanish as well.
Katie
Yeah. And they've got the system down too to lock you in. But, you know, like steps, I hit my steps every day. And I did have like a 900 something day streak on that. and then I broke it, missing it by like 50 steps one day because I was up till two in the morning and the day wasn't over for me, but the day was over for Garmin at midnight and I missed it.
Andrew
And there was no fixing that.
Katie
There was no fixing it.
Andrew
They're real strict about that.
Katie
Yeah. You're like, wait, wait, wait, streak. Wait, I'm not in bed yet. So yeah, I just try to harness it for good. And so I, yeah, I do watch those badges and it's like run a 5K this weekend. I'm like, okay, I should run a 5K this weekend.
Andrew
I give you full permission to taunt me if I'm slacking because it really will be. after 66 I actually felt okay but to go another 30 whatever was not was not in the cards at that particular moment so I know I got to do more but you know I'm I turned 50 in December so it's like I gotta do this shit now or never so that's what I tell my wife too and she kind of rolls her eyes and like I have to yeah I mean come on this is for for us it's for my help but no she's she's been she's been begrudgingly supportive I think but she she doesn't understand it but she lets me do it so that's that's all you can help for in a partner
Katie
I think my approach of show up and just do it has ended at Troutwoman I don't think I can show up and just do it for Ultrout That's been my approach to every Flyathlon and to this is just show up and do it. But I was not feeling great after the Troutman. Yeah. I think that's about my limit.
Andrew
Yeah. I would recommend doing some training. But now that I know, you're not saying no.
Katie
I'm not saying no. I'm RSVPing maybe.
Andrew
Expect the taunting to go two ways if I see you slacking.
Katie
On guard.
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
Yeah, and I will say one thing that I had not realized until doing the travel, which makes total sense, because this is something that I'm aware of from other mapping, planning a route, and then following that route, is you had planned this route, and I opened up the map, and I traced it and everything, and it was like 26.3 miles, like just above 3,000 feet of gain. And I knew it would end up being a little bit more than that, walking around lakes and stuff. But I didn't account for how different.
Andrew
Inaccurate.
Katie
Yeah, how inaccurate it gets when you're talking about a distance that long. And I messed up my pacing. I made a couple of mistakes. One of them, I'm going to blame a handful of people for telling me to leave my beer in the car. Because they're like, don't carry the beer. That's dumb. You're going to loop back around. You're going to drink it at the end. And well, I had I'd been watching my watch like a hawk, obviously, the whole time. And like you said, after that last fish, I was like, I can do the actual math now. And I figured out that I could walk the rest of the way. And I was like, great, I'm going to walk the rest of the way. And then if it's like a little bit downhill, I'll just kind of jog and I'll get back right on time. And I was I was watching the distance tick on. And about mile 15, I was like really not feeling great. And then I got a second wind. I was like back in it. And I got to a point where my watch was saying I had, I think, two miles left. And I looked at the map and this trail segment I was on said five miles. And then it hit another trail that I would take to the car. And I was like, oh, uh-oh. So I was like, okay, so I'm actually like six and a half miles out, not two miles out. And then I was like, oh, crap. like I'm going to be done with the marathon here in just a bit, but I don't have the beer and I'm running out of time because I paced it for, for this, you know, hitting 26 on my watch. So suddenly I was like, I have to run. And the last bit was the ridge. Yeah. So all of the elevation is this last ridge you climb.
Andrew
Well, I would say it, it goes, well, first off, I would say we, we have rules, but they're, you know, like if you had finished 26, and you were at 11 hours and 30 minutes, and you were still four miles from the car, and your beer was back there, we're not going to disqualify you.
Katie
Like I would have consumed it had I had it.
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, the beer part is technically optional because lawyers suggest that you can't make people drink high alcohol beers and expect to remain a nonprofit. So it has to be a choice and certainly people have good reasons for not doing it. And we've had people choose other options. Like I think there was a ghost pepper. There were jelly donuts and half and half. And so certainly you would not have been disqualified for that. But I know how you feel in the moment. The other thing I would say is that sometimes it goes the other way where you've plotted a course and you get to the finish. You've got all four fish and you're at like 22 miles or 23 miles. And you're like, oh shit, now I got to go. Or you're short a thousand feet vert where the route suggested you were going to be a thousand over.
Katie
That I was worried was going to happen as I was going up. Because that was the other thing is now once I realized I'm not at the car and I've still got miles to go. I also realized that I'm not sure if I'm going to get the elevation, which means I'd have to turn around and come back up the ridge, which is fine. except again I'm short on time and I'm like trying to get back to the car so I'm like I really hope I don't have to turn around and it's the route said I was gonna have like 3200 or 3300 I did end up not having to turn around I think I got 3100 or something like that but I was that last hour I was not happy because I was like if I just brought that beer I could just stop my watch right here I could drink this beer stop my watch and then just like stroll down to the car I could like put a podcast in and just walk the next three miles
Andrew
but and that's kind of what makes this whole thing fun is that there's so many variables out there like like you alluded to the wandering around some days gives you a couple miles some days gives you zero miles it it just depends on how fishing is going and and certainly there are ghost miles that come in when you're you're fishing for a while on your watch thinks you're bouncing around the canyon and sometimes it works to your benefit but I think there's no predicting what's going to happen when you're when you're out there and so that kind of makes it fun but it it's important that you be prepared for whatever gets thrown at you and I try to build in in any dumb running fishing adventure that I do I try to build in ripcords that if things are going sideways for real that you you've got you've got an out and certainly try to be as safe as possible during these things by having a in reach and just just having a plan but no I get it it's it's you're like I had a plan it's not working it's not working or it is working but I'm not done
Katie
yeah and I think it's fun it's fun to have all variables you've got to work with it was just a it was a learning moment yeah where I can't I can't just like go on autopilot and look at my watch and be like okay I've got this many miles left and then just blindly trust it and pace myself like basically it is exactly the speed like when I when I found out that I could walk the rest of it it was like walking at a decent clip you know I don't have to run any of it but I can't just dilly dally I need to be walking the whole time so there wasn't a lot of I didn't allow myself a lot of wiggle room
Andrew
I think the more times you do it the more you're just accustomed to things going wrong yeah and and I mean you you're in the woods all the time so you know that with hunting like you you got a plan for just about everything but you also don't want to over plan so you've got way too much gear in your pack and it's it's breaking your back as you're trying to trying to move quickly through space but we with the cutoffs try to be like I've tried unsuccessfully to adjust the Troutman down in terms of total hours allowed but people are like no that there's so many variables involved if the fishing is off in a certain day you still want to have the opportunity for people to be successful and really the goal of it is to challenge people but to have them be successful so they're enjoying themselves out there. I don't want to make it so challenging that it's impossible to do. As we go up in distance, I think that's more optional at that point. Yeah, it has the ability to have people say, no, thank you.
Katie
Well, and if you fail an upper tier, you still have completed a lower tier. So it's not like you go home completely dejected. It's like, oh, I tried to get this one goal. Instead, I achieved this lesser goal.
Andrew
But there is a decision point built in because there's six hours between a, you know, a Troutman and an Ultrout. You've got to pull your, you got to pull the ripcord at some point. So it's a conscious thing. It's not just a.
Katie
Right, right, right.
Andrew
You know, you get a consolation prize for not, not finishing. So you got to make that decision, which is a hard decision to make.
Katie
Well, Katie Mazzia just declared a Troutman 30K or whatever.
Andrew
Yeah.
Katie
Whatever.
Andrew
Yeah. 50K. There have been people making stuff up over the years, but she had a tough day that day.
Katie
I think we all had a tough day that day. Yeah, that was a... I think quite a few people didn't finish what they... Even things that they had achieved in the past just because...
Andrew
Let's blame America.
Katie
Fourth of July was just not in the cards. It was a challenge, but it was fun and it was definitely rewarding.
Andrew
Yeah. Well, more on tap for next summer. I didn't bring a 15 beer for you today oh you didn't oh I did not I was I didn't have one I was waiting for you to present it I did not I i didn't have it at at home most of them are down in west cliff so but there's one with your name on it so
Katie
well that's the other big challenge is I was on this email thread I almost asked to be taken off the email thread leading up to the one in September because I wasn't going and like half of the half of these emails were just I don't I can't find a beer can anyone find a beer that qualifies and I was like I don't want to ask be taken off and then not be included on the next one by accident but like I need to mute this thing because I'm just watching a group of like 10 people trying to source right a 16 beer no one can find one
Andrew
I've got a couple of ways to find those there's some apps that will present you with beer options that you can buy and they'll mail them to you so you can see you can sort it by abv and kind of curate as they come through. Like if it's a blueberry imperial stout, I'm like, nope. But occasionally good ones come through and you can just have them mailed to you.
Katie
You said 20% is needed for FinSanity. Is that like wine? I mean, what exists out there that's 20%?
Andrew
I've got my beer already. It's from a brewery in Anchorage, Alaska. And the beer is called Wendigo, which apparently is like an eater of souls. Yeah. It's like a mythological character who goes around and eats people while they sleep, I think. And it's 20.09%. It's a triple barrel aged barley wine, black barley wine. And yeah, it looks, it looks like a real kick in the head. So I've got that. sits on my desk to kind of prod me on along with the I've got the lucifish buckle up there now to to keep me moving forward we haven't designed the fin sanity buckle yet it's going to be a 10 pointed star which I guess is a sun at that point but I've got this great well you you know the you've seen the buckles the this great local silversmith who he does the buckles for for Leadville and High Lonesome and and so they're they're awesome and so I can't wait I think I'm going to upsize that one because you know after an accomplishment like that it's got to be like a you know like a almost like a pro wrestler belt yeah but we'll see what he what he commits to building for us and I figure there's only a couple a couple folks dumb enough to try that
Katie
You're not going to give a lot of those out.
Andrew
I think there's four. I know Katie will feel compelled to try to do it at some point. She was already chomping at the bit for Lucifish when we got it done.
Katie
So is it what, you, Bryon, Katie, and Kevin?
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. And there may be others. There may be others. I don't know if Christine is dumb enough to. She's pretty smart. She's a physician.
Katie
So she's like, why would I do that?
Andrew
Yeah, that's dumb. That's a stupid thing to do. But I don't know. I've conned her into doing stupid stuff before, so maybe. Yeah, Christine, you got to do it. Come on.
Katie
I wanted to ask. So you can not drink a beer for a Troutman if you do some other terrible thing.
Andrew
Yeah.
Katie
Does that have to increase? I would think so. If you eat a ghost pepper for a Troutman, do you have to eat like four of them?
Andrew
Or like tase yourself while you're eating a ghost pepper. It's just got, the celebration has to be meaningful to you and recognizable as
Katie
And tasing is meaningful to me.
Andrew
Yes. So my wife pointed out that I actually enjoy high alcohol beers. And so it's not equivalent to eating a ghost pepper or tasing yourself while eating a ghost pepper. So she had a point, but we got to, you know, so that's where it's just got to be meaningful to the accomplishment, right? it's got to be it's got to be reflective of the accomplishment for you as the person that just finished it so if someone drinks a glass of water after finishing lucifish I might throw throw the penalty flag but I'm trying not to be prescriptive in that department for for a number of reasons but yeah I think whatever anyone wants to do I'm not gonna I'm too old to be pushing pushing booze on people.
Katie
I don't know. Of all the people I know, I think you push more booze than anyone else.
Andrew
That's probably fair. Maybe I just never grew out of it.
Katie
One other thing I wanted to ask you is what is your watch solution for these really long things? My watch, I know they make better Garmin watches that do last for longer periods, but I had my charger out. I had a battery brick in one hand am I watching the other hand during the Troutman because it was on its last legs with a couple miles left sure so what do you do for 66 plus I think miles
Andrew
well so Garmin you can like adjust the recording frequency which gives you more time there's like a there's like a battery saver mode which still didn't still didn't almost didn't get us through the the 24 hour period the the garmin phoenix as you mentioned has a longer battery life but it also weighs more and is bulkier so usually what I'll do too is take a you know take a picture at the start of what your watch says and then if it if it dies then you can I mean a lot of this is on the honor system to begin with that you caught the fish where you say you caught the fish and we we ask people to submit photos with a timestamp and location on it. So we know that it happened during that, that time they said that we're out there, but if your watch dies and, it's also running with a partner, someone can validate that you were actually out there, but ultimately it's all for fun. And if someone wants to lie about what they did out there to get a belt buckle and God have mercy on their soul for for needing to do that but like it's I i think there are solutions I think a better longer lasting watch is probably the best but knowing the features of the watch to be able to adjust it is another option
Katie
yeah I didn't know you could adjust the interval is that for all of them or just the I've got kind of a not not the best one I think most of them allow you to do that yeah I might need to look into that because I mean it's not the only time that I've been like short on battery and for the trap man I was like well I could pull my phone and start a track you know right where my watch dies start a track on my mapping app and you know hopefully you trust that
Andrew
rest assured that I will never call bullshit on you okay there are people that I would call bullshit on just for fun but I will I will never call it on you I trust that most people are are out there for the right reasons and they're challenging themselves ultimately
Katie
I mean yeah it's an optional thing that you've, you've signed up for. No one's making you do it. So except, except you are making me do all these. Yeah. For the record, for the record, I'm a prisoner.
Andrew
Yeah. But I just released you from your prison by saying, I trust you. So, and I think really it is about that personal challenge. So, you know, I, I, I enjoy pushing myself to, to limits, but I also enjoy seeing people push themselves past their perceived limits. And I think with the time cutoffs that we've sat, people can do it. You're capable of a lot more than you think you are. I mean, I'm 205 pounds and 50 years old. If I can get through this, in my mind, anyone can. It's just a mental thing. And it's really about just wanting to do it.
Katie
Yeah. I mean, it was fun watching everybody kind of have that. Because Kara doing parking lot laps at the end because she was what like six miles short and did I don't know how many little laps around this parking lot she did
Andrew
and I would have just taken off down the road three miles and come back
Katie
I feel like she chose the more mentally taxing option
Andrew
yeah but at that point in your run you're just like I don't want to I don't want to go too far away from my safety yeah the safety zone yeah you're just like as I did that on lucifish I had I was in back into chalk lake which was a kind of like the 26 mile mark but Kevin was still out way up way up basin because he had to go to a different basin to catch the cutthroat because he couldn't catch it where I caught it and so then I'm back in the parking lot doing the math in my head and I'm like if I just sit here until he comes back that could be hours and then I've lost that mileage that he's gonna have when he gets here so I've got a so I ended up doing like six miles in the parking lot which was actually good because I was able to drop my pack and just go laps and eat at the same time and so I got refueled and when he came in I was pretty pretty ready to go again so it ended up working out but I looked like a crazy person because we had a number of people coming into fish chalk lake and I'm just bombing around the parking lot over and over again they're like what are you doing so I think you do what you have to to get to check each box
Katie
well is there anything else that you wanted to cover I know that lake fork just happened and yeah I don't know if there's other like out of state events that have been going on I've really been paying attention to those but yeah you know what's new in the running rivers world?
Andrew
it was a good year we ended up raising more between all the races in Colorado and Iowa and north Carolina than we have in past years which has been a trend over the entire life of the organization each year we've raised more which always surprises me moving forward towards 2025 unfortunately with the storm in North Carolina, the place where we held that race was under like 25 feet of water. And they washed out a lot of the roads that access that area. And so I think for 2025, that race is unlikely to happen, which is the least of their worries, obviously. So we're trying to think through ways that we can support getting that river back to where it was without skating outsider lane as a non-profit which is something we have to consider and then we're on the verge of adding a race in northern new Mexico which will be awesome on a on a piece of property that is is 100 rio grande cutthroat trout so more to come on that but but that one's going to be epic and I think we're we're real close to putting the the final not final there's a lot of planning to be done, but getting the approval to, to do it in this, in this location. So likely to be a Northern New Mexico race and in 2025. And then we're still, trying to explore how to do more project work ourselves. So I'm a, I have a day job and I'm trying to find ways to do more with running rivers, and, and not lose the day job or maybe lose the day job and do, do 100 running rivers so that's that's something that always is on my horizon is how do I how do I turn this thing that I love and that I've built into something that I can do 100 of the time so I'm working on that in the off season and so if there's any conservation-minded billionaires out in your audience…
Katie
I'm sure that's all of them. all my audience is billionaires
Andrew
yeah I figured as much that's why I'm putting it out there
Katie
but are there volunteer your opportunities like is there anything that you you know need like if there's anyone out there who has a skill you know like I can do a website or I can do whatever like is there anything that you're looking for volunteer help if someone's just looking to donate a little bit of their time to conservation
Andrew
yeah I think you know we're we've reached a point with fundraising platform I think they call them CRMs that customer relation management or some shit like that but see I'm a toxicologist not like all this I i don't actually do so we've outgrown the one and so we're looking on exploring a new more robust CRM and so I'm going to be working on that somehow I'm going to figure that out but yeah I i think any of the skills we're looking to migrate our website as a part of that so if there's any website folks out there who are super savvy Craig Hoffman has volunteered his time to help with that but so it really my needs just sort of pop up from time to time when I'm like holy shit I don't know how to do this but I've got to do this and so I have a fairly good network of folks that I can facebook surprisingly put something out there that asks a question and get five or six answers so but as we move towards doing more of the project work ourselves, I envision a scenario where we'll be reliant on volunteers coming to help with some of the work that we take on, whether that's going out and doing fishery surveys or helping parks and wildlife do projects. Like this project that was on the second phase of the Sand Creek restoration, I was what was called a runner, which is basically like you've got all these biologists and technicians spread out along the treatment area and if something breaks I got to take the replacement part to them and that was my job and I'm like my god this is perfect for our people who are who are super fit and can just we could all go back there and camp and be a whole bunch of runners throughout the watershed
Katie
it's like a relay
Andrew
like yeah well so so I was the one
runner for this upper stretch, which was maybe like, I don't know, I think it was like four or five miles. And I was based in the center. And so when I got sent up to take something up to the top, I would invariably hear the radio come to life and someone at the bottom needed something. So if there were like three of us at that central location, we could efficiently and quickly get equipment where it needed to be, which makes the treatment that much more likely to be successful. So there's a lot of opportunities like that, that I think down the road, we as an organization, could tap into volunteers doing fun stuff like that and being out in the resource, stocking fish in remote places, stuff like that.
Katie
And is the way to be on the receiving end of these opportunities to have done a Flyathlon before? Or is there some kind of like, are there plans to set something up where you could kind of like, like be a part of running rivers, even if you're not doing these races to say like, hey, I'm interested in the conservation part of this.
Andrew
Yeah. Well, so we're not at the point where we're, where we've committed to doing this work and identified this work. So once we get to that point, I think that's a great idea to expand it beyond that. You do want to make sure, though, that you have some sense of, like, if you're going 10 miles back to Electrofish, you want to make sure you've got a sense of how capable an individual is to go back there and not become part of the problem. So with the fly athletes, it's a known universe. You can look at their results over the years and say, you know, that person is super fit and capable of getting way back there. But I haven't thought it through yet. I have a model in my mind that involves past participants as well as, you know, like, I think there's a real opportunity to get people who are engaging in outdoor recreation. recreation more interested in and involved on the conservation side and I think that will cause them to care more about these places and and feel like they're a part of a reclamation project that they can then tell their kids that they helped and that that fish is there because they brought them there in a backpack 20 years earlier or not that fish but their their spawn is there because of what they did 20 years prior but
Katie
I'm almost picturing and this is just this is just like thinking of ideas, but also the idea of like giving time instead of money, like, you know, raise money for the Flyathlon. But I don't know if someone struggles to raise money, maybe there's the option to donate a day of your time in, you know, exchange for like taking a hundred bucks off what you've got to raise or something like that.
Andrew
And early in the, because early in the Flyathlon process, we had a limited number of spaces that people wanted to register for. I had this complex spreadsheet that factored that in, like volunteer time and money raised over the years in terms of deciding when you were allowed to register. But eventually it just got kind of untenable. And again, that's something that maybe if I'm not just working on this stuff on Fridays, but every day of the week that I can implement in a meaningful and sustainable way. Because right now there aren't enough hours in the day. And that's a challenge because I've got interest in other places. Like I talked to a guy maybe a couple weeks ago about a Flyathlon in Alaska. It would be awesome. But I can't take on more and more stuff without gaining more time. So that's kind of where we're at as an organization. We're kind of steady state right now. but exploring ways to take on more bandwidth.
Katie
For sure. And just so I know, because I've never looked, Running Ravers isn't an organization that you can just become a member of. It's not like a Trout Unlimited where you send your dues in and can just be a member. It's kind of its own organization that is kind of affiliated with all these different moving parts, the races and everything, but it's not like someone goes on and says, I want to be a member of Running Rivers.
Andrew
Not currently. And from what I've heard from folks at Trout Unlimited, there's pros and cons to having membership models. It can be a reliable stream of income, but it can also be a lot of work to maintain those memberships. And what are those members getting? And are they feeling valued versus the non-member who also wants to participate in your race? So, again, being a toxicologist and not someone who thinks about this sort of thing regularly, I have wild ideas on how it could work, but whether or not they, would materialize into something that was productive for the organization. I don't know. I'd have to explore it more. But we have thought about it because we've had God knows how many participants in these races over the years. And if you could convert all those people to members and have them being investing in the organization, then I can see some big upside to that. But logistically, I just don't know what that would look like and what they would be gaining for that other than just committing to supporting our organization. Is it a free T-shirt? Is it early registration? I just haven't thought through all that yet.
Katie
How did you convince your day job to give you Fridays to work on this? Or are you just senior enough that you can kind of tell them?
Andrew
No, no, nothing like that. There are a few benefits to working in the federal government, and flexible schedules is one of them. So I just front load all my work early in the week, and so I'm getting everything done in four days. So then I have the ability to work on Fridays. Not every Friday. Some days there's meetings at my day job that I have to work on Fridays. But for the most part, I've been working most Fridays on this stuff.
Katie
That's cool. And you'd like to take it hopefully full time? Oh, yeah. Do you have an idealized timeline of when that would be?
Andrew
I mean, and I should say I don't hate the work I do during my day job. But it lacks a creativity that building your own thing allows you. So I don't know. I've got 20 years in the federal government come next year sometime. And there's certain benefits to waiting past 20. So I think I'll get at least past that. But then, you know, one of the downsides to having kids is that sometimes they want to go to college and you have to pay for it. So the worst, I need, you don't have to pay for it, but we've chosen to. And so I need to think through the ramifications of downsizing income, because the other thing about working for the government for 20 years is you get compensated decently. And so to try to replace that with a nonprofit salary might be a challenge. So we just have to think through it. What sacrifices we're willing to make for my happiness, which you notice I said, we, I'm willing to make sacrifices for my happiness and my wife is too she's she's totally supportive but I just want to think it through and make sure we're not hamstringing anybody by doing it right
Katie
it's a big change to make yeah but it's also important to feel passionate about what you do
Andrew
and that's my wife talking she's like just do it like life's too short and but I i have a tendency to think about the consequences as I fall asleep at night if if you just do something and it doesn't work out so yeah but it's gonna work out and then it's gonna be awesome
Katie
Flyathlon Alaska it's gonna be awesome just show up and just do it take the uh Katie Troutman advice
Andrew
yeah yeah I think that's there's something to say about being bold for sure
Katie
well I'm glad you came back over today I'm glad that we accomplished me my first Troutman you an ultrout and a lucifish
Andrew
should I mail you the 15 percent beer or do you want it to look at it to taunt you?
Katie
like I was staring at that it was it was a good motivator. I mean not that I trained I went out a handful of times and did a couple things
Andrew
and you did not enjoy that beer?
Katie
correct correct
Andrew
so is there a different flavor profile that I can target here at the 15?
Katie
like a coors light kind of flavor that's kind of what I'm going for so high octane coors light
Andrew
yeah well I'll keep my eyes out if you can find something similar to that signs point to no but I'll do my best
Katie
okay yeah I mean you can send it my way I'll have it stare me down. it'll be the equivalent of me coming on garmin and saying like oof.
Andrew
I know where you live so maybe you'll come home from work one day and it'll just be sitting on the doorstep and you're gonna go porch pirate will come and take it oh shit the gauntlet has been thrown again I i have full confidence that as I mentioned earlier if I can do it anyone can do it and seeing you out there on the mesa you you can totally do it
Katie
yeah I i but you're gonna have put in some time I know I know we'll see yeah it's gonna show up if nothing else I'm gonna come and you know maybe make an attempt and if it doesn't go if it doesn't work it doesn't work
Andrew
maybe on valentine's day it'll it'll show up with a little heart on it
Katie
I have a secret admirer. Or there’s just a creep out here putting high abv expensive beers on my porch
Andrew
no you'll know who it was and you'll know that you've been challenged
Katie
okay alright well cheers thanks for coming over always appreciate it alright that's a wrap thank you all for listening if you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes you can find those on fishuntamed.com you'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me and you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed if you want to support the show you can give it a follow on apple podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and if you'd like to leave a review it would be greatly appreciated but otherwise thank you all again for listening I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode take care everybody
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