Ep 139: A Lifetime of Fly Fishing Stories, with Graham Mott
Graham Mott has been fly fishing for decades and has a lifetime of fun stories from the water. He recently released a book, “Hooked by Fly Fishing: Feel-Good Stories of Family and Friends, Life Lessons, Mishaps, and Mayhem.” In this episode, he tells me some of his favorite stories of fly fishing over the years, including being guided by a couple of outlaws in Alaska and hooking what he thought was a massive fish but turned out not to be.
Graham’s book: link
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 139 with Graham Mott on a lifetime of fly fishing stories. Before we get into the stories, I start every episode by getting a background on how my guests got into fishing. So before we dive in, go ahead and walk me through how you got introduced to fly fishing.
Graham
So, you know, in my case, I was introduced probably differently than most people because when I was out of college in '25, I met a gal and met her family and her father at '25 asked me if I'd like to go fly fishing. And of course, I said yes. And what an opportunity for me. And he said, "Well, I'll take you up to the Wigwam Club." And of course, I had no idea what the Wigwam Club was. And it's just an incredible club. the very wealthy and prestigious people belong, like the former governor of Colorado and all kinds of people. But anyway, he was -- my father-in-law obviously was very well to do. And we went up there the first time and, you know, overlooked the place. It's got the cabins there. It's got the river. They put boulders in the river at each pool to provide access for the -- not only for the fishermen, but great, great water for the fish to hide in. And so, you know, they had run after run set up. And so anyway, I went there and he taught me how to tie flies and all of that in the morning. And it's, it's kind of funny because I, I of course was really wanting to get out there and, and try it. And I got to make a couple casts before lunch, but we got up there about 10 o'clock. But by lunchtime, I had to go in and have lunch and sit with my father-in-law while he chewed very slowly. And I had wolfed my meal down where I wanted to get out and fish again. And of course, I had to wait on him. And once I got out there, I had these real heavyweight Hodgman waders that he'd lent me with felt soles. And he did have a bamboo rod, a three-piece bamboo rod he gave me. And he had a vest I could wear. And I had some gut leaders. And on the leaders, I tied two flies, one a muddler minnow and the other a royal coachman. And I fished them wet because that's the way he fished. And, you know, 45 degree angle across stream and let them float down and then strip them back. And he said I could get a strike anytime. And so anyway, I'm out there after lunch and suddenly, you know, I feel a sudden Strike and I've got a rainbow and that's the first rainbow I ever caught and of course it jumps out of the water it's probably about a one pound fish nice fish probably about 17 inches and From that time on I was I was really hooked by fly-fishing. I mean that that really got me into it I probably went about 15 or 20 times to that club and it was just amazing to go there because they actually had side of that were where they actually raised fish to put in the river. So they had brown trout and rainbow trout there that they fed, and then they put them in the river. And of course, the fishing was outstanding. I mean, this was better fishing than you'd find any place in the river up there because the fish were good size. Everything was a pound or above. And so anyway, it all worked well until he decided that he was going to put me up possibly for membership in the club. He was in his 70s. Oh, by the way, he only went for four hours each time. He never wanted to go up there any more than four hours. So with lunch, I never had a lot of time to fish. I mean, I had three hours, but it wasn't a lot because he always wanted to get back to the Denver Country Club and play gin rummy and gamble. So anyway, I probably went up there 15 or 20 times, and that's how I learned to fish. I learned to wet fly fish, and then I learned to dry fly fish. And unfortunately, he put me up for membership to become a member of the club. But that was all, I mean, that was crazy 'cause I didn't have the money and certainly not the status that he did. And supposedly, I might've gotten in as a member because he didn't have any sons, but I doubt it. And my marriage ended to his daughter, so that ended everything.
Katie
That'll do it.
Graham
That ended everything. And so I never went fishing at the Wigwam Club again. (laughing) It's not that I didn't speak to him after that, I did. But divorce does not help things, that's for sure. And so that's kind of what happened. But it was an incredible place to fish. And I did learn to dry fly fish there the first time. I put an Adams on one day when a fish was rising in a pool and caught it, and so after that I was pretty much dry fly fishing. But I will tell you one of the most crazy things or fun things, and I kind of equate it to a golfer making a hole in one, is that I would fish these two flies that he suggested, such as the royal wolf and the muddler minnow, and I'd fish them underneath the water. And there were at least two times when I hooked two fish pretty much at the same time. I mean, I'm sure one hit the other fly shortly after the other one took it. But it was surreal having two big fish jumping and one is pulling the line one way, one's pulling it the other way. I mean it was really amazing to have two fish like that.
Katie
Yeah, what's it like to have two large fish on? I've caught doubles a couple times, but it's always been either panfish or small brook trout. So I can just pull them in together, but I can't imagine having two big feisty rainbows on at the same time. What's that like?
Graham
Oh, it was, I mean, it was really surreal. It's just amazing. I mean, they're jerking you every which way. They're jumping out of the water. I mean, I was able to actually to land both fish both times, which is just amazing. But like I said, I sort of, I don't know how many people have ever caught two fish. I guess, you know, nymph fishermen maybe sometimes do, but it did happen to me twice. And it was just, I mean, an incredible experience.
Katie
Yeah. So this is kind of a good transition into, uh, kind of the rest of what we're gonna be talking about today is just your many years of fly fishing experience. How long have you been fly fishing now? How many years?
Graham
Over 50 years. So I mean I yeah I mean I have lots of stories. I started when I was about 25 so it gives you an idea of my age and yeah so I mean I've I've been fly fishing for a long time and and because of the wigwam club and getting to fish up there you know then I went I fished Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Canada and I also fished Alaska. So I I mean, I was able to fish all these other places. If I'd been a member of the Wigwam Club and the cost, it was very costly to be a member, and dues and everything, I'm sure that would have been the only place I could have gone. But it was an amazing experience.
Katie
Yeah, a couple of the, I know you sent over a whole bunch of stories and we're gonna get to some of those today. And there are two themes that kind of stuck out. And one I know you mentioned was dilemmas. And the other one that I noticed was a running theme was hooking either yourself or things that weren't fish in the water. So maybe I'll let you start where you want to start. But the first couple things on my list are hooking yourself in your lip, hooking your hands. Maybe let's start there.
Graham
Well, I mean, I went up to the White River. There's a resort up in the White River. You go up by gypsum and you climb up and you go over the plateau there and down into the White River. And that's, there's a place there called Budges White River Resort. It was just called Budges at the time, but it's, it's just a, a great place to go fishing. And it's a long way in there now. There's a lot more people fishing, but when I was back in there, not so much. And it's very rustic. The cabins are very rustic. They have a shower curtain around the bathrooms and this kind of thing. But anyway, I went fishing there and I, two things happened there that I thought were pretty amazing. One was I was watching an older gentleman, I was younger at the time, casting, doing a beautiful job of casting. And what did he do? But he hooked a bird that was flying and I had never seen that. I'd never come close to hooking any bird. And the bird landed in a bush and I was able to go over and remove the fly from the bird. The bird was OK, but that was an amazing happening. But then I was fishing again, a muddler minnow through a pool on the White River. And I mean, I had a tremendous strike. And I thought, I mean, I've got I got this might be the biggest fish ever caught on the White River. And I mean, I was so excited. And I started running down the river after this, what I thought was a big fish. And before I knew it, it snapped off my fly and then boiled in the water. And I knew what it was. And I took the beaver. And that was just that was really amazing. I mean, this beaver, obviously I wasn't going to land a beaver. He was pretty angry. But anyway, that's that's what I did there. And then I was up fishing Cheeseman Canyon, which is above the Wigwam Club. Of course, I no longer could fish at the Wigwam Club. And it was a windy day and I was fishing two flies that that my father in law, Hal, had said to fish wet fly fishing. And it was it was windy. and I had on a Royal Coachman and a muddler minnow. And not a Royal Coachman, I'm sorry, a Rio Grande King, which was kind of a black fly. Anyway, on the back cast, I stuck that Rio Grande King right in my cheek, right below my lower lip on the right side. And I mean, it was, of course, I had a barb, and it was stuck in my cheek. And I met another fisherman, asked if he could help me remove it. But he said, "No, no, no, you need to go to the doctor." And so, like a diehard fly fisherman, I fished for a couple more hours. And then I knew that I had to head to Denver to go to the doctor. So I did go to the doctor, and I walked in. And this was back quite a long time ago. And, you know, they didn't have all the rings in their lips or nose or all the things that people have these days. And I walk into that office, and I've got this black fly and my hanging from my face there. And, you know, I have to tell the receptionist that here I've got this fly stuck there anyway. And all these people are kind of looking at me. But anyway, I got it removed. It was not a big deal. He pushed it back through and removed it. And at a later date, I was fishing the blue and put one in my -- also put one in the top of my ear. And again, was fishing two flies under windy conditions. And again, I had to go back to the same doctor and have it removed. And he thought it was quite funny. And he was asking me if he thought I would come back again. And I said, I hope not. But anyway, those were two of the incidents. But the funniest story is I went to Boy Scout camp with my boys, and they were about 12 or 13. And we had heard that the pond there-- it's this Boy Scout camp out by Elizabeth, Colorado. that one of the ponds there had a -- they had a couple of ponds, had some large fish in it, that there were some fresh water shrimp or something in the water, and these fish were getting large. So one afternoon while we were there, when there were not activities, about 4.30 in the afternoon, we went to this one pond. And sure enough, I think I caught a -- using a fly rod, I maybe caught about a 17-inch rainbow. And they were nice fish. And my son was fishing a Rapala. And it was a good size one chartreuse one, you know, I had the six hooks on it and everything I I don't like those kind of lures, but Anyway, he he cast that thing out and sure enough. He hooked a good-sized rainbow I think when we got it in we thought it was probably around 20 inches and Along and so, you know being the dutiful dad. I said, I'll get the hook out. Yeah, right. What a mistake I Bend over. I'm gonna get this hook out of this rainbow and And of course, I have one hand on it, but it's still, you know, what's the word I want to say? You know, moving around anyway. And so anyway, it throws the hook right into my right palm. And of course, it's a barbed hook and it's in my palm pretty far. I mean, it's hanging out. So anyway, I know at this stage I'm in some big trouble because I've got this big hook. of the treble hooks in my hand like that. And so the guy, the scout master said, oh, you know, I can get it out for you. It's, it's not a big deal. And he took some, uh, uh, monofilament line and he put it around the curve of the hook. And he said, I'm going to jerk it out the same way it came in. I said, fine. And I, so I had, I had my hand down on my side forward and he, he was, he, he, uh, had that around the hook and I had my other hand over on the left. So he jerks that lure out of my hand and it is now flying loose. What's it gonna do?
Katie
Find another hand.
Graham
And it came around and it hooked right in my other hand deeper than it did in the first hand. So now it was in my left hand. And of course I'm cussing and my boys are all, and his son was there too. I had my stepson, my son and his son. And Alan, the scoutmaster, they're all laughing nervously. And I don't think it's so funny. But anyway, he showed me this trick, and it's worked wonders. I mean, I'm telling you, I have pulled hooks out of a lot of people, and everybody seems, if you fish quite a bit, to get hooked on occasion, either in your hand or someplace else. And so he, again, put the monofilament around the curve of the hook and jerked it out. and actually, you know, my hands are pretty tough. Your hands, your palms are pretty tough. They bled a little bit, but not very much. But I was really lucky. But it's a great way to remove hooks. And I've removed them a lot of different places. I had a friend who had one in his neck, and my son had one really bad in one of his fingers I removed. And so it's a great method to remove a barbed hook if you have one in you.
Katie
Yeah, I've used that technique a couple times, and I'm always surprised at how well and how cleanly it works. It feels like you're gonna have to try a couple times. And every time I've done it, it's worked the first time without any problems. And the person doesn't even know it's out yet. You know, they're like, "Have you pulled it yet?" And I'm like, "It's gone." So yeah, it's a great technique. And I feel like everyone should learn how to do it. I don't even know what it would be called, just, you know, monofilament hook removal. And I'm sure it would come up.
Graham
You've got it right. Yeah, it's really simple. And you just put it around the curve of the hook and jerk it out the same way it came in, the opposite way. And I mean, it brings it right out. So I've never, I mean, I know there's the fishermen that bend down the barb and have barbless hooks, but I've never really done that. I generally can get the hook out of the fish and not cause a lot of problems, but I know some people have done that in their lifetime, but I never really did. But I've certainly had my share of hooks stuck in either in me or my clothes or my socks or, you know, my wherever. As you know, if you fish, you're going to have that happen. And I, you know, I had a friend who cast across the stream one day and put it in some willows and he decided he didn't want to cross the river to get to get his lure out of the willow. So he's putting all kinds of pressure on the rod. And I tell you, that thing came back and the he's really lucky. The the fly buried itself in his neck. but it could have hit his face. I mean he was really lucky and I was able to get it out easily enough but I mean you gotta be it's dangerous you got to be careful you know you never know what's gonna happen.
Katie
Yeah that's also a good argument for wearing sunglasses I know we're always wearing them anyway just to see in the water but especially when I'm pulling something out of a tree like that I always make sure my sunglasses are pulled down because you never know where that's gonna go.
Graham
Boy that is so true.
Katie
Yeah monofilament trick's not gonna work if it's in your eyeball.
Graham
That's exactly right. Oh no, you definitely want to wear sunglasses. You got it right. And I definitely always did wear sunglasses, but, and my friend had on sunglasses, but still, you know, might've hit him in the cheek or something. I mean, it would, again, you could have gotten it out of the cheek, but I mean, that fly came back and was on him in seconds.
Katie
So I know these could definitely all be called dilemmas, but the other theme in your stories was dilemmas that you've come across, and maybe more so than these, because these are just a dilemma in that you've got a hook in your hand and you need to get it out. But it seems like the other theme that you had going was dilemmas like, "What should I do here? Do I do this or do I do that?" So maybe tell me some of those ones and what you decided to do in these situations.
Graham
Yeah, well, you know, you have the friend, I don't know if you've had that, but I had a friend who called me and he said, you know, he'd been, I think, maybe fly fishing once or twice, and he said he wanted to go fly fishing with me because he knew I'd done a bunch of fly fishing. And he was kind of one of these yuppie fishermen. Only because he was new at it, he had absolutely everything in his vest that you could want. He had it loaded down with about every tool you could have. But anyway, he wanted me to go. So I kind of begrudgingly said, "Okay, we'll go." And we went up to, again, Cheesman Canyon above Deckers in Colorado there on the South Platte. And we went in there, and I told him, I said, "Now, Bob, be really careful wader," because I said, you know, "You can get yourself in trouble." And I think the water there was about 452 feet. It wasn't -- I mean, that's a little bit high. It's not too bad. I was able to wade across the river with it, but you do have to be careful. And so anyway, we went up there and, you know, within 20 minutes I had crossed the river I was able to cross. But I told him, I said, "Stay on that side. Don't get out too far. Wade close to the side." And of course, you know, maybe 10 minutes later, I see him out in the middle of the river, and suddenly he is floating down the river. And so I'm alarmed, although I was sure eventually he'd be able to touch the bottom. But eventually he did and crawled out. But the dilemma was I'd only been there 30 minutes, and he wanted to go home. He was cold and wet. And so the dilemma is, what do you do? I mean, I just got in there. We'd half driving there. And suddenly, you know, he's the one who got wet. I told him to be careful. And of course, he didn't pay any attention. And, you know, now he's all wet sitting on the side, side, and it's a little cool. It wasn't real bad, but it was cool. But, you know, I didn't want to leave. I had caught fish yet. I hadn't done anything. But that's the dilemma. What do you do in that situation. I told Bob, "Hey, wait on the shore. I'm going to fish some more." But I saw him with his head hanging down woefully. He was miserable, and I thought, "What am I going to do?" I don't really want to go home. I think I hooked one fish, but it was one of those things where I was stuck. What should I do? I was the driver, so he wasn't to leave without me anyway, but still, was I going to walk out of there and quit fishing and go or would you stay? It's funny because I talked to two younger fly fishermen and they were friends of my son's and they said they would absolutely not have left. It was his fault. You warned him and he didn't listen. So he had to wait. That's life. He was a good friend of mine and so you know after another half an hour I waited out of the river and we walked out and I left. I don't know what you would have done in that situation.
Katie
I've actually been in a very similar situation not quite the same because I was guiding somebody so this person was paying me to be out there but I took her waders I dumped him out and I switched him with my waders and I I fished in her wet waders the rest of the day while she wore waders and said, "Whatever you do, don't fall in again." That's how I handled it.
Graham
That's a good way of handling it. Well, in this case, I mean, I did go home, although a number of fishermen I talked to said, "Well, it was his fault. You should have stayed. You didn't have to go home." But that's one of those things where you have to decide what you're going to do. And then I was in Montana with my friend Jim. I have a couple stories about Jim, but we were fishing, we were going to fish the Madison, and Frontier Airlines lost our fishing rods on the way up or didn't deliver them, they weren't in the plane. And so we couldn't fish the first day, we were only going to be up there three days. So they got the rods to us the second day, but even then it wasn't until noon, so we couldn't fish until noon the second day, and we went to the Madison to fish. Well, being the good guy, I had lent Jim an extra pair of waders. He was fairly new to fly fishing. I mean, he'd done some, but anyway, so I lent him the waders. OK, well, little did I know, I lent him a pair with a hole in it. So anyway, I'm out there fishing, having a good time, and I see Jim walking back down the stream toward me and he comes and he says, Hey, you're you're waiting for a hole in it. and it's enlarged and it's taken in water and I, you know, I got to have some waders and everything. So, this was the dilemma. What, you know, Jim had to drive in and get new waders in West Yellowstone, which was probably, you know, 30 minutes or 45 minutes away. And, you know, we had a rental car. And so, or, you know, I could go with him. And, of course, I'm saying to him, hey, I'm going to stay here and fish. I'm on the Madison. It's my chance to fish the Madison. You go get the waders. Of course, I had caused the problem because I'd given the week leaky waders. So it's a real dilemma on what you do now. In this case, I stayed and fished and he went to get the waders, but he was not real happy with me and I don't blame him. But I do believe that if it had been the opposite and and I had to go get the waders, I would not have expected Jim to come with me because we had already lost a lot of fishing time and the fact that he could fish while I ran to get the waders, I believe I would have been okay with it. But I don't know if you've been in that situation before, but it's an interesting dilemma on what the other person would do. And certainly he's a good friend of mine and I guess as a good friend, I should have gone with him to get the waders.
Katie
The lesson I'm learning here is not to trust you with waders, not to go fishing with you and rely on you for waders, 'cause it seems like only bad things happen to people who go with you and need waders.
Graham
Well, that only happened once, but I did lend another pair of waders to another friend of mine. I didn't go fishing with him, and those had a leak too, so I have to laugh about that too, 'cause he was miserable, and I don't blame him. Here he had my waders and they were leaking. So it did happen twice. And then the other funny thing that happened with Jim and I is we were in the same trip on the Madison. We had a bet on who caught the most fish on this trip. And we got in this incredible -- we took this float trip the last day, got on this incredible caddis hatch. And I mean, they were in our face and our mouth and our ears. They were every place. Anyway, we both caught -- I think by the time the trip was over, we'd each -- almost over, we had each caught 20 fish. And we were approaching the takeout place. would be our last chance to fish because we were leaving the next morning the takeout place on the the river for the we'd get out of the boat and he hooked a fish he hooked a trout and it was moving around below the the never never appeared it was probably a pretty good sized fish he didn't get it up it was going around the boat and so I attempted to move out of his way so I didn't cause a problem and of course when I did I ended up tapping his line with my rod and you can probably guess what happened next the fish got off and of course he couldn't believe it that I had whacked his line and the fish was gone and because of that we ended up tied but otherwise he would have won the prime red dinner. Anyway, he thought I did it on purpose. Now, I understand that maybe you could try and do that and it could really happen, but I wasn't really trying to knock it off, but that's what happened. And so anyway, he would never let me forget that one.
Katie
Yeah, I'm hearing sabotage across all these stories. It seems like everyone you go with has something bad happen to them. But nothing bad seems to happen to you.
Graham
Well, I've had a few hooks in me and that sort of thing. But no.
Katie
I guess that's karma getting you back is all these hooks in your hands and neck.
Graham
That's right. Well, anyway, that was the other story there. But anyway, those were good stories.
Katie
Tell me about Alaska. You had a couple about Alaska, floating down a river. And the one I'm more curious about is meeting outlaws. I don't know where that's gonna go, but I'm curious.
Graham
Yeah, well, I went to Alaska twice. And the first time, what's really interesting is Jim and I met this guy, Sims, at a dinner here in Denver, a taxidermy company called Jonas Brothers had a wild game dinner. And we went to that and this guy, Sims, was a fishing guide from Alaska and we sat at his table. And of course, we're negotiating with him about going fishing up there. And it turned out he'd been a hunting guide and he had lost his outfitting license and everything this past year. He was fined $75,000, lost an airplane. He spent 45 days in jail because he ended up shooting a caribou and letting it rot in the tundra there where he knew it was. and then he had some hunters from Germany that were paying him $25,000 for a bear, basically a grizzly but a brown bear, they called them brown bears. But anyway, so he -- the rule in Alaska was that, you know, you could find the bear, but you had to set down the plane and camp out and then hunt the next day. You couldn't just go and shoot the bear. And so anyway, he took these guys out there, and of course, what did he do? He ended up finding the bear, landing the plane, and they shot it, and of course they were federal agents. And he was a real outlaw, so now he decided the only way he could make money was to use his lodge for fishing. And so anyway, we ended up going up and fishing with him. And the guy we had guiding us again was a hunting guide. We didn't have a fishing guide. He could give us no advice as far as fishing, what to use or anything. And Jim and I, my friend Jim and I, both went And we caught a ton of fish. In fact, we were able to hook some king salmon the first time we were there. I hooked them on a fly rod, and they're absolutely enormous. I think one of them was probably 30 to 40 pounds. I had absolutely no shot of landing them, and they broke me off. We did actually catch a couple of the king salmon. We were able to land two of them, but we did it using a spinning rod, not a fly rod, with much, much stronger test. and we were able to chase them in a boat down the river, a rubber boat that we blew up and had a motor on it. And that's how we were able to get these king salmon. Otherwise we never would have caught them. But we caught a lot of big rainbows and Dolly Vardens and Arctic char and some fantastic fish. It was incredible that here we were fishing with a hunting guide, no help at all, and we still caught lots and lots of fish. So it was fantastic the first time. And then the second time, I went back to the same lodge with the same guy. And this time, he his friend was the one who guided us, who was the who was the hunting guide the first time. But this this time he was going to take us himself. So he was going to be our guide. And he while we were there, he had another friend of his who was staying, who was there at the lodge with two hunters from Mexico. And again, they were paying a lot of money. You know, maybe 5,000 for a moose or more, some certain amount for a caribou, certain amount for a bear, that kind of thing. And we found out, of course, talking to him that, you know, he'd go out and spot them from the air, set the plane down, and they'd shoot the game. And this, you know, this was against the restrictions. But these guys were outlaws. They didn't care. The money was too big, and they thought they'd never get caught. And what's crazy about it is that a year later, I talked to the owner of the lodge, Bill Sims, and it turns out his friend was—while we were there, these guys were federal agents again and nailed this guy. And he lost his airplane and he lost his guiding permit and hunting permit for life. And he would have gone to jail. He had to pay, I think, again, about $100,000. He would have gone to jail, but he agreed to do a movie for National Geographic. And so he told his story on National Geographic of what he was doing illegally. But both of these guys were outlaws. I mean, there's no doubt about it. They thought they were untouchable and the money was really big when they had these hunters there. And so anyway, those two guys got caught. But anyway, that second trip, we went to a river called the Alagnac River. And it was a pretty big river, and there were four of us. Two other friends from Denver came with us. And so one of my friends was named Ken, and he wasn't much of a fisherman, but he came along. He had the money to spend, and he came along for the trip to enjoy it. And so Jim and I are upstream a ways and we're watching Ken and he's wading out in the river and suddenly the river's pretty high up on his chest and he's kind of on his tiptoes and tiptoeing around and Jim and I are kind of laughing and saying, "Oh my gosh, he's in trouble." Well, he was able to get out of the river, but he got all wet. And he came down to see us and he asked, "Either of you guys got an extra set of clothes?" And I said, "Well, I do." And so I had it in the plane, so I gave him my extra set of clothes, and so he was able to get dry clothes. And so Jim and I moved down the river, and what do you think happened? We move into about the same spot Ken was, and we're both kind of holding on to each other and we're in this deep water. And Jim's closer to shore than I am, and we're kind of—he's got one hand on me and I've got one hand on him. We're holding our rods with the other. And it's pretty deep and I'm having a problem touching the bottom. And Jim decides to let go of me and sort of push himself towards shore. And when he did that, he pushed me out. And so naturally I'm in the river and suddenly I'm up to my neck and I'm floating down the river, right down the middle. And I'm dog paddling with one hand, holding my rod with the other. And luckily I had my waders, I had a belt around my waders. I mean, I'm getting wet, but I'm not taking in a ton of water. And it took me for quite a ways around a curve in the river and that sort of thing, before I could finally touch the bottom and drag myself out. But I was pretty nervous. I thought, you know, you always hear the story. I don't know if it's true or not. You know, you fill up your waders with water, you're in big trouble. And anyway, so I was able to stumble out of the river and get out of there. But the other funny part was, Ken didn't have any other wet clothes, so I had to ride home in the plane wet the whole way while he sat there nice and warm in my clothes. So I guess that was payback, see?
Katie
Yeah, maybe this is the karma. Maybe this is the karma. It's not the hook sets. This is your getting wet karma for all the times people got wet when they were with you.
Graham
I think that's right. That's that karma. You got it exactly right. Yeah, but I also had it happen on the Colorado River where I fell and I wasn't with anybody that time and the water was up to my neck and I couldn't get up. But I wasn't too far from shore so I threw myself towards shore and was able to grab a tree branch and pull myself up. But again, I was lucky. And again, I had my waders, had a belt around my waders, I just got wet. But you do worry about it a little bit when you get yourself in trouble wader.
Katie
Jumping back just a story, I wanted to know, do you happen to know how the feds found out about these guys and what they were doing up in Alaska?
Graham
I have no idea. Obviously, the feds had been put onto them both times. And in both cases, the federal agents booked these trips a year in advance. And the first time, they were German hunters that the federal agents, I guess, could speak some German. They were supposedly German hunters. And then the second time, they were from Mexico. And so I have no idea how that worked, but they nailed them both. And Sims, Bill Sims was the guy, the first guy I went with. And he got caught and crazy enough, he didn't have any idea that there were federal agents again at his lodge a year later, nailing his buddy. And I mean, it's amazing that this kind of stuff happens, but they got them both. And he had no idea that the same thing was happening to his friend.
Katie
Huh. I wonder if the reason they posed as Germans and Mexicans is just to throw off the scent that they could possibly be with the government. Like, if these people are German, then they don't work for the US government? Or is there any other reason that you would pose as being from a different country?
Graham
I would guess you're right. You know, and I think they thought, well, these Germans would have a lot of money and this guy from Mexico, he must have been wealthy, wealthy Mexican, he had lots of money because I think the hunters from Mexico, with everything they shot, I think they were spending about $50,000. Wow. And so, you know, the money's so big and of course, you know, the greed gland is going off with these guys. They're counting their dollars and they're going to make it as easy as they can to shoot these animals. Instead of finding the animal in the airplane, setting the airplane down on a lake nearby or a river nearby and then camping out and then going to get the animal the next day, they're just setting the plane down and going right there and shooting the animal and that's what they were doing. Yeah.
Katie
So did he know his... His friend obviously was no longer around, right? So what was his thought on why his friend is suddenly no longer working here?
Graham
I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.
Katie
Like, you said that he had no idea that, you know, the feds got his friend and now they're here for him too. You know, obviously if he was like, was he like booked or taken anywhere? I guess you said that he got fined.
Graham
But well, he got he got fined the first time and his friend got fined. I mean, obviously, when we were there, we were the only there were four fishermen and we were going with Sims and the other guy was taking the hunters. And so it was at that time, it was in September, and the second time we went, the first time we went in July. But the second time it was September and obviously Sims had no idea that his buddy was being set up and, you know, it's just one of those things. I mean, they knew what they were doing. And I actually saw the movie that he made for National Geographic where he talked about did. So he got off without any prison time, and maybe he got some of the money that he had to pay cut too. I don't know. But what's interesting about it is that I saw on the internet, oh, about a year ago that Sim's son had been indicted for killing some bears by baiting them by shooting moose first and baiting the bears. And the bears come to the moose, the dead moose, and then shooting it and again got caught doing that so I It's kind of like father like son So these guys his son hadn't learned his lesson because he got caught too so Yeah, it's these guys were real outlaws. That's the way I saw it And you know, they they didn't care but they paid a very expensive lesson. Can you imagine losing an airplane? That's really that's really costly.
Katie
Yeah, you'd think that if that happened to anyone you knew that you'd be you know a lot more cautious about what you're willing to try but I guess not
Graham
Well, and and you know the guy that got caught the second time new Sims had been caught. He knew Yeah, and he had no idea these guys from Mexico who had booked a year earlier were federal agents And they set him up exactly the same way.
Katie
I see. Okay, that's I think where I was His understanding is I was thinking that he didn't realize that that had happened, but it's just that he thought he knew it happened, but thought, you know, this isn't happening to me. You know, he's not recognizing the same right.
Graham
Exactly.
Katie
Okay. Okay.
Graham
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, pretty amazing. But the money was so big for shooting these animals that, you know, they, they didn't care and they were going to make it as easy on themselves and the hunters because they got paid for getting the animals and they didn't care about stocking them. They wanted to go get them right then.
Katie
Yeah, I wonder if a previous client had tipped off the feds. That's the way I can see this.
Graham
Somebody had tipped them off in both cases, I have no doubt, 'cause they'd set that up. But I don't have any backstory for that. I have no way to know. I just, I mean, it was pretty amazing that Sims told us what happened to him and then his buddy, while we're there at his lodge, at Sims Lodge, his buddy is staying there, taking these hunters and doing this illegal hunting. And we did find out that he was doing that while we were there, because we talked to these guys from Mexico and they said, "Oh, you know, I shot a caribou in the morning. I shot in a moose in the afternoon." You know, you can't right after spotting them. I mean, they set it down and shot them. Yeah. And so, I mean, it was, but, you know, I don't know when they actually arrested him because they didn't arrest him when we were there. We didn't see that. So I don't know if it was right after or how that played out, or maybe they have to go get an indictment and then come arrest him. I'm not sure.
Katie
That may be. That's got to be kind of a costly and lengthy endeavor to, you know, I'm sure these are kind of remote places, maybe not where they're based out of, but, you know, if they have to go collect evidence, come back, you know, make their case and then go back and get the guys once they've kind of been given permission to do so. You know, it's not easy to just get out to some of these hunting camps in Alaska.
Graham
No, these are very remote. That's exactly right. I think that's why these guys thought they were pretty protected. They didn't think anything like this would happen. They didn't think it would happen to either one of them. And certainly, even so, it happened to Sims, his friend. He didn't think it would happen to him. I mean, he knew Sims got caught, but hey, he was going to do it his way and he did it. And sure enough, he paid the price and those guys could never hunt or guide again.
Katie
Wow.
Graham
I mean, they could do, they could guide fishermen, but they couldn't do anything with hunting.
Katie
And I'm sure fishing is not- I mean, people still pay a lot of money to go fishing in Alaska. But it's not the same as the money that people are spending to go on some of these big game hunts. I'm sure it just doesn't quite compare.
Graham
Oh, it doesn't compare at all. No. It's a lot less money. And I think probably the fishing part- I don't know if it's a lot more work. I can't say that. But still, yeah, it's- I mean, it doesn't even compare. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
The last thing I wanted to ask you about, which is I'm sure completely unrelated to hunting in Alaska, about as far away from that as you can get, I would imagine, is a security guard at Whole Foods.
Graham
Oh yeah. Gosh, my wife and I went to Whole Foods and there was this security guard there and he was a good looking guy. My wife said here, his name was Gary, said Gary and I were like alpha males checking each other out. That may have been the case, I don't know. Anyway, I had on a jacket that said evergreen fly fishers on the pocket. And anyway, he said, Are you a fly fisherman? You know, I said, Yeah. And so we got to talking and he told me one day when we were in there, he said, You know, he said, I'm the best fly fisherman in Colorado. And I said, Oh, really? I said, That's really something. I said, You must really be good. And he talked about fishing and he'd fished all over and he tied all his own flies. And I mean, he loved to go fishing. And so my wife and I would stop over at Whole Foods in Belmar and we'd talk to him. And he said one day, he said, "I'm giving up fly fishing." And I said, "You're kidding." I said, "Why would you do that?" And he said, "Well, I've got a rotator cuff problem on my right arm." I said, "Well, you can get out there and cast with your left hand." I said, "Why would you give up this sport? It's too much fun." And he said, "Well, I just don't think I want to do it anymore." And I said, "Well, that's up to you. I said you could have surgery." And I said, "Recover from that and eventually fish again." And he said, "No, no." Well, we showed up a couple more times, and then one day he said to me, "I'm just not going to fish anymore because my wife is ill." And he said, "I've got to take care of her." And he said, "I just can't do it anymore." He was a retired police officer. Anyway, so he said to me, "Listen, I'd like to give you all my flies." And I said, "Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. "You don't need to do that." I said, "Keep them." I said, "You might end up using them." And anyway, he told me he'd like to be called by the name Goose. His name was Gary, but he went by Goose. So anyway, I called him by goose. And about two or three weeks later, a package arrived at my house, and it was filled with four fly boxes, and I think there were about, I would guess, three to 400 of his hand-tied flies. Which is just, I mean, I was blown away. I didn't expect that. And so, you know, I have actually caught some fish on his flies. I continued to talk to him. He has now passed away. But anyway, I had the opportunity to get his flies and catch some fish on them. And I told him that I would pass them on to another fly fisherman eventually. I mean, there was no way I was going to use all his flies. And a lot of them were very small nymphs and that kind of thing. So, and I'm not a big nymph fisherman. I tended to fish a fly, a dry fly is kind of the, you know, the top fly and then underneath I'd hang a nymph down below. And I had a double opportunity to catch fish and that's kind of where I've done a lot of my fishing. But anyway, that's the story with Goose. He gave me all his flies. It was an amazing happening.
Katie
Well, that's not what you expect when you go to Whole Foods, or at least not what I expect when I go to Whole Foods, is to, you know, meet somebody who's going to send me a couple hundred flies.
Graham
Yeah, I mean, it was unbelievable. I mean, who would do that? I mean, I was blown away. That was his generosity. And since then, I've actually talked to his son. And he never fished much with his son, so just the way it happened. But anyway, his son was interested in the story. I talked to his son about the story of what happened. But anyway, that's the story about Goose.
Katie
Well, Graham, just to wrap up, I want give you a couple minutes to plug your book because I assume all of these stories and many more are probably included in that and that's kind of the reason that you're here today is to is to plug this book so go ahead and give a quick summary of what people can expect in the book what it's called where can where they can find it and all that.
Graham
Yeah I appreciate that very much it's called my book is called "Hooked by Fly-Fishing" it's feel-good stories of of family and friends, life lessons, mishaps and mayhem. And it does have so many of my stories in it, of fly fishing, some of the ones we've talked about, but there's a lot more. And I have 28 chapters and it's been a real labor of love to write this book. And it's available on Amazon as a paperback and it's also available as a ebook. And also I recorded it for Audible. So you can get it three different ways. And it's also available on Apple and Barnes and Noble and other places. But Amazon's of course the big one. But anyway, people would really enjoy my stories. They're really fun. And so if you get a chance, check it out. Remember the title, it's not "Hooked on Fly Fishing," it's "Hooked by Fly Fishing." My last name is Mott. My first name is Graham. So anyway, I'm sure you'd enjoy it. So thank you so much for having me on your show.
Katie
Oh, of course. This is a lot of fun. I feel like when you've been fishing as long as you have, it's inevitable that you're gonna end up with a lot of amazing experiences that can only happen to somebody who's been out there hundreds or thousands of days on the water. So I just appreciate you sharing that with us. And I hope people check out your book and get to hear some more from you.
Graham
Well, thank you so much, Katie. I'm honored to be on your show and I really appreciate you having me on. And I hope your listeners enjoy my stories.
Katie
I'm sure they will. And thank you for taking the time to do this. This is a lot of fun.
Graham
All right, you take care.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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