Ep 93: Backcountry Fishing and Canoeing, with Will Collins
Will Collins is the owner of Buffalo Roamer Outdoors, a guiding company focused on wilderness canoe and fishing trips. He also hosts a podcast of the same name. In this episode, we talk about the logistics of backcountry canoeing and fishing, including what you can bring, how to transport a canoe, how fly fishing works from a canoe, some of his favorite species to target, and some fun stories from his multi-month trips down some of the biggest rivers on the continent.
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Instagram: @Buffalo_Roamer
Facebook: /BuffaloRoamer
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 93 with Will Collins on backcountry fishing and canoeing. Awesome. Well, we can get rolling. I'll save the rest of my questions for you for the actual episode, but I always start by getting a background on my guests. So I'd love to hear how you got your start in the outdoors in general and we'll kind of dive deeper once we get to that point.
Will
Okay, sure. Yeah. Man, the outdoors in general, fishing and the outdoors kind of went hand in hand for me, but I grew up as a little kid here in Northern Illinois, which is where I live currently. And I always grew up, I guess I'll just kind of tie the fishing and outdoors intertwined. But yeah, I grew up just going to the local pond, fishing for bluegill, for bass. I think bluegill was the main thing. My dad was an angler, not a huge outdoorsman, but he loved to go to fish. So he would take me out fishing as a little kid. And then I went to a summer camp in northern Wisconsin as a kid, like a sleepaway summer camp. where like I got hooked into the outdoors and I would go up there and we do you know a few night canoe trips as like a nine-year-old kid you do like a three-day canoe trip through northern Wisconsin and just kind of eventually I kept going to that summer camps called Camp Manitouish YMCA and eventually I did like some longer trips this this camp offers some extraordinary trips so what I did when I was 16 and 17, when I was 16 I did a 30-day canoeing trip in Saskatchewan, a backcountry canoe trip through this camp organization. And then the following year I did a 45-day backpacking trip in the Brooks Range of Alaska, which had some epic grayling fishing. And those trips kind of cemented like the love for those big wild outdoor trips. And I just kind of kept rocking with it since then. I've done some interesting canoe trips. I loved to canoe. That's kind of my main thing, canoeing and fishing. And so in 2017, I canoed the entire length of the Mississippi River, which was 103 day trip, 2,300 miles backcountry canoeing all across America. And then the following summer I did a canoeing trip, a backcountry canoeing trip all the way across the Yukon River in Alaska, which bisects Alaska and runs across to the east and west. That was a 70 day canoe trip across Alaska. And then, yeah, since then things have just kind of grown. I have a podcast as well. I talk about a lot of this stuff, Buffalo Roamer Outdoors. I have a little guiding business folks out on backcountry canoe trips. And yeah, and I love to fish too.
Katie
Oh my gosh, I have so many questions for you. I feel like you just gave me enough content to talk to you for like five hours. So going back to the summer camp, that's like a pretty incredible experience to have as like a teenager. I feel like, you know, normally when you think of a summer camp, you're like, "Oh yeah, we did some like rope work and rock climbing and we went canoeing for the afternoon." And you're like, "Oh yeah, we went for 30 days." Like, What is that like as a teenager, being thrown out into the world doing trips that are probably longer than most people will ever take in their entire life? What's that like being so young?
Will
It was absolutely amazing. Only looking back on it, I'm 31 now, and only looking back on it do I really realize the magnitude of those trips and the effect that they had on my life. It was pretty neat actually from my podcast. I recently got a call from that camp that somebody had heard me talking about the camp on my podcast and this particular person has their own foundation. After learning a little bit about the camp, they decided to make a huge contribution to that camp, which I thought was pretty neat. But yeah, it's a special place. kids out in the woods for 30 days. There's not a lot of people in today's society that would do that. And this camp's been doing it forever. And yeah, it's magical. I remember the 30 day canoe trip. You know, you're only a seven, 16 year old kid, so it's kind of hard to put it in perspective. But I remember the 30 day canoe trip. It was like awesome. And I, one of the things I took away from that trip was like, okay, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. And I still sometimes say that to myself because there's times where it's like, you know, you're a 16 year old kid, all your friends are back home, like playing PlayStation over the summer or whatever. And it's like raining sideways, you're freezing cold in the middle of Northern Canada. There's like nobody within miles away. You're like, what am I doing here? And you're like, all right, going gets tough, tough get going. But then the other thing I remember specifically is when I was in the Brooks Range in Alaska that following year, I was hiking down this ridge and just thinking like, "Wow, I'm a long way from little old DeKalb, Illinois, where I grew up." Yeah, I was super lucky to be able to be exposed to that stuff and to have parents that put me in that camp that kind of sparked my passion because my brother and sister both went to that same camp as well, but they didn't do the big longer trips because it didn't resonate with them as much. They did like the smaller canoe trips and had a fun time, but it wasn't as impactful for them as it was for me, that's for sure.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like, obviously it's not for everyone as you just stated with your siblings, but I'm inclined to believe that any kid who wants to do that should have the opportunity to go out and do something like that just because I feel like there's got to be so much carryover with what you learn in that kind of environment where you're kind of relying on yourselves and people your way, then I just think that lesson overall, even if you don't end up doing more massive canoe trips specifically, the lessons you learn in that kind of environment I think probably transfer pretty well to the rest of your life. Just being able to be resilient, be adaptable, think on your feet, that kind of stuff is just inherent in a trip like that. And I know if I ever have kids that if they're put in that, if they are given an opportunity like that, I just view it as so invaluable for a young person getting ready to go out in the world.
Will
100%, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Looking back on it, that camp and those experiences definitely shaped who I am. And they put a big emphasis on, like you said, being a leader, being resilient, finding solutions, all that type of stuff. And as a 16 year old kid, you don't necessarily realize it when you're out there, but yeah, looking back on it, yeah, all that stuff set like the cornerstone for the values that I have and for being a leader. Yeah, not a lot of people, or not everybody I should say, wants to be a leader or wants to be put in that situation. But yeah, I definitely learned a lot. And there's lots of different ways to do it, right? Sports teams can do that. But yeah, if you have a knack for wanting to be in the woods, man, I don't think there's a better way than going camping for a long time.
Katie
Absolutely. So I know you mentioned that you had kind of grown up doing some bluegill fishing. Were you able to do some fishing on these trips or was this kind of something that you noticed like a spark for canoeing and then you combined it with fishing later? Like, were you able to do both at the same time or did that come later in life?
Will
I think it was a little bit of both. I didn't really... I always had a passion for fishing. My dad, as I said, is an angler and I've been lucky that he shared that passion with me. So yeah, I grew up bluegill fishing, bass fishing. on those trips at the Camp Manitouish, I definitely fished, but they were not like fishing trips. They were canoeing trips. And yeah, I did a bunch of fishing on them. I think I was probably like the one kid on both those trips that was just like dying to throw a line in anywhere I could. But yeah, I mean, I remember in Saskatchewan catching just like, just so much untouched water. You just like pull a spoon through a pool and, you know, massive pike or big walleye. I mean, yeah, we had so much amazing fish on that trip. And then the Alaskan trip in the Brooks Range, also I didn't know looking back on it, but that was, my dad had given me a fly rod as a Christmas gift, my first ever fly rod. The summer before that trip, I went up to Alaska. And so I was just kind of messing around with it up there And we were catching, I was catching grayling, like 20 inch grayling, 19, 20 inch grayling. Like it was nothing, like left, right, every single cast. It was just amazing. And then only once I've been a fish bum for the next 15 years, did I realize that like, wow, I was catching trophy grayling on every cast, just in like the most pristine Alaskan wilderness. Like that's tough to top.
Katie
Yeah, it's hard to like decide what's better. you obviously want to go out and have the best fishing every time. But I feel like there's definitely a part of me that looks back and it's like, I definitely don't want my first time going out somewhere to be incredible just because I don't want to set the bar too high for myself. Because you don't realize it until after the fact where you're like, "Oh no, that was not like the usual experience." But you're never going to turn down an experience like that, obviously. Totally. But it's sometimes hard.
Will
I always think about that too, especially when I'm fishing with other friends or maybe somebody, if I'm fishing with somebody He was not quite as fishy as me. I'm always like, if we're in on, you know, if we're in them and the, and the bite is on, I'm always like, we got to stay as long as we can, because it seems like we could just come back and do this tomorrow. But I know like, if I show up the same time tomorrow, I'll catch like one fish or get skunked or something. Like the bite is on now. Like we gotta, you know, we gotta make hay while the sun is up.
Katie
So do you, uh, do you kind of switch back and forth between the fly rod and spin rod then? Because it sounds like you do maybe a little bit of both, or have at least done both.
Will
No doubt. Yeah, I do both. I worked in a fly shop in Montana. I worked at a fly shop in Bozeman, Montana. But over the years, I've gone back and forth. So I started up as a kid spin fishing bluegill bass in the Midwest. Then I went to school in Boulder, Colorado. And that's after the Alaska trip, that's where I first picked up the fly rod and dove in head first to fly fishing. I'd be taking my three-way out between classes on the little creek that runs through campus and catching little brownies in the 30-minute window I had between class and just exploring all the backcountry mountains and all the water in the front range there. So that was when I really got hooked into fly fishing and I was pretty much consistently a fly fishing from there, I suppose, until I moved to South Dakota. I lived in South Dakota for three years and those people up there don't even know what a fly rod is. They look at you sideways, "What the hell?" The walleye fishermen up there. So then I went back to spin fishing mostly, although I still would bring the fly rod out because I like catching bass and stuff with the fly rod. But yeah, then I moved to Montana. I did a year in Montana. I worked at a fly shop in Montana. So obviously it was fly fishing a bunch then. And then I moved back to Illinois and the last three years have been mostly spin fishing, but I still go back and forth. Personally, I am not a fly snob at all. It's like, I look at these people that are like so particular if you're not using a fly or if you're using... What's the difference between a San Juan worm versus a plastic Berkeley bait or something? People get so particular about it. Me, I love to catch fish and I'll do whatever the best method is to catch that fish.
Katie
Well, it makes sense when you described coming out to Colorado and picking up a fly rod because geography plays a decent role in that. I mean, I enjoy the act of fly fishing, and I mostly fly fish, although I do pick up a spin rod from time to time. But, you know, in the mountain streams for trout, I feel like a fly rod is the most effective tool for that. I would be more lost in these high mountain streams with a spin rod than I would with a fly rod. But if you're looking at, you know, deepwater walleye or something, I would have no idea what to do with a fly rod. So it is a matter of, like, what... It's what you like doing 'cause you can fish for most species with either one, but there are definitely areas that lend themselves more to one technique over another. And at the end of the day, do whatever's gonna work best.
Will
100%, and that's the name of my game, is I want to use the best tool for that species that I'm fishing, or maybe not the best tool, but maybe the most fun tool. And yeah, like you said, a trout stream, if you see trout rising, drifting the dry fly to a rising trout is like the best thing in the world. Uh, but you know, throwing, uh, you know, throwing blind casts off a deep ledge to, to walleye all day. It's like, uh, it's, it's not quite the same, you know, I'd rather, yeah. Take the spinning rod and, and, uh, and see what I can do. So I do a lot of musky fishing too. And I go back and forth. Uh, I'm probably like 70% conventional on the musky fishing. Because yeah, throwing a blind 12-way all day, man, that'll crush you.
Katie
It's an exercise in itself.
Will
Yeah, totally.
Katie
So do you ever do much fly fishing from a canoe then? Because when I was reading about all the canoeing you've done, I'm like, "That sounds really fun." But also being low to the water is kind of a hindrance if you're trying to fly cast. So have you experimented with fly casting from a canoe at all, or do you tend to tailor your gear toward the position you're going to be sitting in when you're casting?
Will
I totally, yeah. I take the fly rod out in the canoe all the time. Yeah, this summer, I'm doing a bunch of bass fishing with the fly rod at the local lake near me. On the rivers, I'm usually taking the spinning gear in the canoe just because it's a little tighter water, and we have real thick brush, underbrush on both sides. But no, I love fly fishing with the canoe. I only do it solo though. If I'm going out with a buddy, two fly anglers in one canoe, that's a mess waiting to happen. So I've done that a few times and learned my lesson. But yeah, I love fishing on the fly from the canoe. I just did a speech at the Midwest Mountaineering Expo. It's called the Outdoor Adventure Expo. One of the presentations I gave was called Catch More Fish, fishing tips and tricks, fishing from a canoe. A lot of it was focused on like just reading water and strategy and stuff, but I talked some about fly fishing and yeah, I love canoes. So I think it presents a great way to access water that other boats and other people can't access. And yeah, I fly fish from the canoe all the time. I love it. usually and yeah we'll cast that way.
Katie
So tell me about the logistics of doing these long canoe trips because I tend to do a lot of like backcountry fishing and that's like what I what I like to talk to people most about but it's usually in the context of hiking somewhere deep in the backcountry, backpacking or just hiking into like a lake or stream far away but you're generally carrying what you need on your back you might stay for a couple nights come back out but you I have no idea what goes into planning for one of these long canoe trips when you've obviously got a massive piece of gear, the canoe itself, plus everything that's going to go in there. So walk me through how a longer trip in a canoe goes.
Will
Oh, it's the best. I love it. I love traveling by canoe. Like I said, I think it's the best way to travel. One, I think before we get into how the gear and stuff, I just think that it applies to to fishing to write a stream or a river through any given valley is like the lifeblood of that valley. Right. Like doesn't you can take it on a tiny micro scale of like a little a little creek or a little mountain stream or you could go all the way on like a massive geological scale like the Mississippi or something. It's like whatever river is running through that. It's the lifeblood of that system. All of the wildlife comes to that river to eat or to drink, to relax, to get water. A lot of the plant life and trees are going to be found along that river. I just think it's like traveling rivers is just such a great way to see the heart of that ecosystem. You're just traveling through the lifeblood. I think it's cool to travel rivers that way. And then gear wise, especially on some of these bigger trips, it's kind of funny. You basically need about the same amount of stuff for like a hundred day trip like I did on the Mississippi as you would for like a three or four day trip. And most of it is just your typical camping gear. On the first time I did the long trip, the Mississippi trip that was in 2017, there was a lot of figuring it out as you go, right? Like I didn't, I had no idea what to bring. I had so much crap, Katie. I had like a full acoustic guitar. I had like three cutting boards, two cast iron fry pans, like just all kinds of ridiculous stuff that I didn't need. So I kind of whittled it down as I went. But the gist of it is basically, yeah, you got your canoe. Your sleeping gear, your tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, your food. Similar stuff that you would take on a backpacking trip, but you don't have to be as concerned about weight, which is an advantage too.
Katie
Yeah, that's what when I was thinking about if I were in a canoe, I feel like I would easily fall into that trap. I tend to pack, I'll fill up whatever space I'm given. And so if I give myself a backpack, I'll fill up that backpack and it'll be fine. But when we car camp, it's suddenly like we're bringing 10 times more stuff because we've got a whole truck to fill up. And it's like, well, I know I don't need this stuff because when we go in just a backpack, I don't have that much room. And I just picture myself being given a canoe and being told to go wild. And I'm like, I'm going to bring everything I own.
Will
The best part about it, we bring- all my trips are very cooler, well-stocked with brewskis. You can bring fresh foods, steaks, burgers, chicken, bacon and eggs in the morning, the whole kitchen sink, nice Coleman two burner stove. Always bring a foldable table, like one of those plastic tables, chairs. It's the best. Living in luxury in the backcountry.
Katie
So when you're trying to find a place to sleep, are you just generally looking for public land along the river and just kind of pulling off somewhere and setting up your camp on shore, I assume? Or do you have to carry your canoe far in at all?
Will
Totally, yeah. So I've done all kinds of canoeing trips. But on these two in particular, the Yukon and the Mississippi, the Mississippi, pretty much all of the islands throughout the length of it, especially on the upper Mississippi, are all public. It's just public land. So you can just pull your canoe up on a sand bank. And yeah, I'm usually just looking for- I spent probably, I don't know, maybe 70% or so of the nights on islands, on a sandbar, just looking for a flat spot. And then the other times, it would be just on the banks. Yeah, basically just looking for a flat spot or a good spot to stay. I also had a hammock. So there was a few times where I couldn't find good camp spots. So the ground was slanted or angled or real big boulders or something, so I would just pitch the hammock and use that too.
Katie
Okay. Now, it sounds like you're mostly going down rivers. Do you do any lake canoeing as well?
Will
I do do lake canoeing, yeah. I prefer the rivers though. I prefer fishing rivers and I prefer canoeing rivers. They're just more dynamic, I think. You're seeing new things, right? 'Cause the water's moving below you, so when you turn the bend, it's a whole new area. Whereas on the lake, it's just sitting still. So yeah, I love the moving river, moving water. And I love reading. There's something cool about reading rivers that I love too, whether fishing or canoeing, like is the trout behind that rock? Is the water's moving slower around this bend or faster around this bend or slower around this point or whatever it might be. I think it's just a little more dynamic. So I really do like rivers over lakes for sure.
Katie
I feel like you could almost be a pro and a con 'cause I agree with you. I like floating down a river because I get the new terrain, the new holes to cast in and stuff like that. But there's also the time where you see something good and then you buy it, like you've passed it. And that was your one shot at it before you get past it unless you wanna like try to work back upstream. And most of my experience has been in a kayak. So it's not terribly hard for me to just to turn around paddle back upstream quickly and get back to that spot. I feel like a canoe might be a little bit more cumbersome to turn around and go back upstream. But I could be wrong on that as someone who doesn't have as much experience in a canoe.
Will
Yeah, no, I think you're right. Yeah, and you're right. It is a, it's a double-edged sword, right? Because you get to see and cover a lot more water, but yeah, you might not get as many shots. But one of the things that I say too, about specifically about canoeing fishing is whenever I'm like fishing from the canoe, as opposed to just recreational canoeing, just going out for a paddle is I always, uh, I always try and pick a much smaller stretch of river to fish than a stretch of river that I would go out for a paddle for that reason, because, uh, so many times I've like fished a section that I anticipate would take me the same time just to paddle. And it's like, no, I'm stopping at every little hole and, you know, taking ten minutes to cast into every little hole that I see along the way. It's like I travel like an eighth of the speed that I normally would. So I've learned that a little bit is to just do much smaller sections when I'm trying to fish and then that allows me a little more time to like stop at some of those honey holes that I see along the way.
Katie
When you're stopping are you pulling the canoe off to the side of the river and standing there and fishing or do you like drop an anchor? Does that depend kind of on like the type of water you're in?
Will
Yeah, it totally depends on the given situation, how deep the water is. Lots of times I'll paddle in waders. So I can just, yeah, if it's shallow, I'll just hop right out of the boat and kind of hold the boat or pull the boat up and just stand in my waders and cast. Other times, if it's deeper, I'll throw an anchor out or I'll tie off to like an overhanging tree and just kind of sit in the boat and cast near the hole. Or I'll just, yeah, pull the boat over to the bank and get out on the bank and have some casts from there.
Katie
Now how does one get into canoe fishing? Because it seems like a, it might depend a little bit on where you live I suppose, because I feel like, at least where I live, canoeing might not be the most effective way to get around just because we don't have a lot of bigger rivers. We do have some, you know, the Colorado and stuff like that, but a lot of the fishing that I do up in the mountains is like smaller streams, so maybe not apt for a canoe. But if someone is in like an area where canoeing is really, like if the landscape lends itself well to a canoe, how does one get started? Is there a good place for someone to go to figure out what kind of canoe is best for them or what brands are good and things like that?
Will
Great question. Loaded question, right? Because there's about a million different ways people would probably answer that. But, and yeah, you're totally right that specifically in Colorado in the Front Range, there's no water. It's just like, it's dry. There's streams, Rocky Creeks, there's some whitewater. Yeah, you have the Colorado, probably. Yeah, better fish with a drift boat. The Gunnison is a cool river to canoe in Colorado. But yeah, you're totally right. It doesn't lend itself as well as it might in the Midwest or on the East Coast or even, you know, even farther out West where there's a little more water like Pacific Northwest or whatever. I think for me, I it's just like I just love it. It's like it takes, I think the canoe is the best. It's just like the way it can move in the water. It's like when you're in a drift boat or a raft, you're just kind of like a big bus, like a big floating blob. And the canoe is so much more delicate. You can like move it exactly on the scene that you want. You can like kind of finesse it more than you can a raft. or a drift boat. So I love that aspect of it. And then I just love that it's like, I don't know, it just feels right to me to like paddle a canoe. I feel like an old French fur trader, you know, trapping beavers in the 1700s or something. And as far as getting into it, I don't have any particularly great advice other than I'm not really a big gear oriented guy, I'm more of a take what you have, go get out there and then you'll kind of figure it out as you go. So canoe wise, you know, just, that's a good thing about canoes. They're not very expensive, especially compared to like a drift boat or a raft or something. You can find canoe on Craigslist for a couple hundred bucks and go have a wonderful So, I don't know as far as getting started and finding the right boats, I don't know if I have a particular spot to point people. Maybe you can check out my website, buffaloroamer.com, and if you have particular questions, feel free to reach out because I'm always interested in talking canoeing with people. But, yeah, I think it's just about going out and getting started and trying it out and figuring it out and seeing what works.
Katie
That might kind of answer my next question, but I was wondering how much specialized technique there is. I know there's specific paddles that you can use to do different things, but do you think it's important to know some of those specific techniques in terms of navigating your canoe around? Or do you think that with enough time on the water, especially if you're in a river where you're just kind of trying to steer it straight, avoid obstacles and things like that, does it kind of come naturally to people when they just get out and do it enough?
Will
I think yes and no. If you're going by yourself, it can be tricky to learn to solo a canoe, especially if you have a bigger boat. That can be a little tricky, but I don't think it's particularly difficult. No, I think it's probably a similar learning curve as it would be to row in, you know, efficiently row in a raft or a drift boat or something. But if it's something, I guess I would say this, it's a really low barrier to entry. Like you don't really need to know many strokes or many have fancy equipment or any of this stuff to get on the water and use it as an effective tool to catch fish to get to new water or just to be on the water and enjoy yourself and have a good day. But if it's something that you're interested in, you could go down the rabbit hole and look at all the nicest boats and all the best techniques. There's a million different strokes, all slight variations that improve efficiency or save effort or different maneuvers in the boat for side slipping water called ferrying, where you can go across the river without losing any, what would I say, latitude or longitude, I guess, without losing any height on the river. So you could go forever if that's your calling, but I love that you don't have to. You can also just hop in a plastic Coleman canoe with old beat up paddle and go out to the honey hole.
Katie
Yeah, I have to suppose too that this might be a good reason to get out on the lake. Like when you're new, you're not risking running into stuff as much. So you could get out and just kind of play around with it. Like what does the boat do when I do this? What does the boat do when I do that? And if you get frustrated or sick of it, you can stop and fish for a little bit and then keep playing around with it without the worry of, I've just drifted three miles. I haven't actually gotten anything done because I'm just trying to figure out what to do to stay straight or whatever. So that might be a good argument for going out in the lake.
Will
Absolutely, lake is much more forgiving for that for sure. And yeah, it's just fun to get out on the water and yeah, just to be on the water in general, I think is always enjoyable.
Katie
So are you just throwing your canoe on top of your vehicle to get it around? Because I'm picturing like a drift boat, and you've got to get it like a trailer and stuff like that, which is kind of a hassle and a barrier to entry to folks. But I've seen a billion canoes on top of cars. So is that how you get yours around?
Will
Oh yeah, strap it on the top. And actually I get the funniest looks for me because I saw I got a little Tacoma pickup and I just, I put the truck bed, I put it in the truck bed and I have the bed closed and it just like hangs out the back of my, uh, of my pickup. I have it all secured with straps, but it overhangs the, uh, the bed and it, it does look pretty goofy. I always get goofy looks driving down the, driving down the freeway, but it's secure. Uh, I also do have like a little canoe trailer, uh, for when I'm guiding trips, I'll throw like six, it can take six canoes. So that helps if I have a bunch of them, but also yeah before I had the truck I was just just tossing it on the on the roof rack around the Roof of the car with some pool noodles and strapping it through the window
Katie
Cool, so it sounds like whatever you've got access to you should be able to make something work at least
Will
Totally. Yeah, it's it's like yeah, like we've been saying that's one of the awesome parts pretty low barrier of entry and getting into it
Katie
So, how do you handle, like ending up anywhere between I don't know it sounds like you go anywhere from 30 days to hundreds of days between when you're dropping your canoe Off in the water and then you know, you you finish. So how are you getting back and forth between your vehicle? And like where you end up taking out?
Will
Sure on the longer trips. It's it's on the Mississippi I started up in northern, Minnesota and then 103 103 days later ended in New Orleans and on that one my mom came and picked me up by New Orleans And we rented a car and drove back drove back north to Illinois the Yukon trip We ended up at the mouth of the river where it pours into the Bering Sea there in kind of north-central Alaska on the west coast and We sold all of our gear or a lot of our gear and we sold our canoes in this little fishing village Emonic, Alaska and Sold some of our gear and then caught just like a little puddle jumper Out from that village to a couple other stops and then eventually made it to Anchorage on other trips Usually that I usually will set a shuttle so most of the trips that I'm doing are like weekend trips or two or three days I go out all the time and I'm doing those trips all throughout the year and Yeah, well, so we'll usually just run a shuttle. We'll leave one car at the starting point and then we will Take two vehicles drive back to the ending point leave one of the vehicles at the ending point and then that person will hop back in with the shuttle vehicle drive back to the start and then we start it's kind of a pain, but It's just part of it. I suppose.
Katie
How does that work? If you're by yourself, or are you generally not by yourself on these trips?
Will
Depends. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. If I'm going by myself, there's two ways to do it. I'm still trying to perfect the self shuttle. In my head, what I want is a dirt bike and I'll get a hitch. I'll put the dirt bike on the hitch, the canoe on the truck, and then I'll leave the dirt bike at the end point and then drive to the start point and then canoe. And then once I get to the end, take my dirt bike back to my truck. Uh, that's the ideal. I don't, I don't have that set up running yet. Uh, that's the ideal self shuttle rig. But, uh, currently there's two options. Uh, I either, uh, we'll hitchhike back. I've done that a bunch of times. I'll just start and, uh, yeah, just go to the nearest road and stick out my thumb and hope, hope for a ride back to the, uh, back to the put in. That one, I usually have to leave a little more time at the end of the trip to make sure I get a ride. Or the other option is if I'm just going for a day trip, like just fishing for the day, which I do all the time, I'll just paddle upstream for the first half of the day, kind of get a view of the holes and what I will be fishing. And then I'll fish up and then I'll float back down to the car.
Katie
Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Actually, I used to do a lot of that in a kayak. Like start off somewhere, paddle up, and then give myself maybe a half hour float back down. And it gets you a little bit of a workout on the way up, and then you can relax the whole way back and not have to work once you're there.
Will
Yeah, exactly. And it kind of helps 'cause you know the holes that are coming when you're floating back in the car. You're like, okay, I got in my mind, like there's a good hole here, and the next bend is not that good, and then a good hole down there. So you can kind of allocate time a little more.
Katie
So I wanna kind of dive into some of the fishing you've done on these trips. Of the ones you've mentioned, or I guess even ones that you haven't, but like the Yukon, I saw on your website you did like a big one in Saskatchewan, Mississippi, like does any of, do any of these spots stand out to you in terms of the fishing that you have to do there and just like anything stand out notably in terms of like good or bad fishing or things that you learned along the way that you think would be helpful?
Will
I think the thing that stands out on both of those trips, Sadly on the Mississippi I didn't really do a ton of fishing. Honestly on both the Mississippi and the Yukon I didn't do as much fishing as I would have liked. Partly just because I was just so busy like you know you wake up in the morning make breakfast you get on the water you canoe all day until it's dark and then you pull up to camp you set up camp make food and like by the time that happens you're just like whipped ready to just sleep and kind of repeat so I didn't do as much fishing as I would have liked to on Mississippi or the Yukon, but the Yukon was like just tons of salmon. The salmon runs were going and even though I wasn't fishing, we went into a bunch of like native salmon camps where they just have like, you know, tons and tons of salmon hanging and smoking that will like supply them. There's a subsistence uh, fishermen and hunters. And so they'll, they'll use that, uh, to feed their family and like their, their dog teams, their sled dog teams up there through the winter. So that was pretty cool. Um, just seeing all that. And like, we had so many commercial, uh, native commercial fishermen just like hand us full salmon. Like we're paddling by and like, Hey, come on over and we'll go over and they'll just toss like a full salmon in our boat. All right. Eat like Kings tonight. Uh, so that, that, on neither of those trips that I really fish as much as I would have liked to, uh, the Brooks range trip that I mentioned that, uh, yeah, the grayling fishing on that was just spectacular. I'd love to get back up there, uh, and do some more grayling fishing. Um, those are sweet, sweet, sweet fish. Uh, but yeah, I've done a ton of different, uh, like fishing specific trips. Usually it's like the canoeing stuff that I do is, uh, I have one buddy that I go fishing, canoe fishing with all the time, but typically it's like more canoeing and I'll fish when I can or like fish on the side. And then I also do lots of fishing trips where it's just like, all right, we're here to fish all day, every day. And those are some of my favorites too.
Katie
So tell me kind of the logistics of those trips. Like what do you, what are you usually fishing for? Do you have like favorite species that you like to target around home or that you like like to travel to over and over again to get specific fishing?
Will
Totally. Around home, I'm mostly targeting smallmouth and pike, big pike. Those are my two favorite things to fish. I love it. Yeah, I love it. Smallmouth, like, so pretty. They're so strong. They're aggressive. Yeah, they're awesome fish. And big pike fishing, I really love, too. I think they get a bad rap in the fishing world. Not as much in the fly fishing world. I think the fly fishing world's coming around to them a little bit, but in like the conventional world, like when I was up in South Dakota, people would throw them on the shore or whatever, 'cause they think they're eating the walleye. But man, there's nothing better than the alpha predator of a big pike in that water system. Just toothy beasts and the way they fight and run and hit. I love, love chasing big pike. Um, and then, yeah, I've been really lucky that my dad is a, uh, is an angler and he's like a, he loves to do some of the more destination fly fishing trips. So, um, I've been fortunate to go to a lot of places with him. Uh, we've done, or actually I just not with him, but by myself last November, I did a trip in Brazil chasing peacock bass, um, wolffish, uh, big Pirabi catfish. That was awesome. I've done a lot of the saltwater stuff. I've done Belize for permit and bonefish. I've done musky fishing here in the Midwest. I've done red fishing. I did one red fishing trip. Would like to do that again. What else? That might be it. I think I'm missing a few in there. I've done a couple Alaska trips, big bows and salmon and stuff. But yeah, I think I like the big game fish now, like musky, pike. I'd like to get a tarpon. I've never done tarpon fishing, but love to try and chase some of those big like 100 plus pound tarpon, I think that'd be sick. I've gotten more into that as I've grown, more of like hunting for the big fish rather than looking for numbers.
Katie
Have you gotten to do any of these more destination trips in a canoe? I mean, some of them I don't think really lend themselves well to a canoe. Obviously, like the saltwater stuff, you might be like flats waiting or whatever. But any of the ones that would be doable via canoe, have you found a way to rent gear while you're there and go out and boat? or are you just kind of taking those as just fishing trips and you're not as worried about getting out in a boat?
Will
Yeah, mostly just fishing trips. On the Brazil trip, we had some of like the native boats that are just like long wooden kind of dugouts. Those are pretty sweet, kind of similar to a canoe. But no, on those trips, I'm mostly just, yeah, I'm just zoned in on fishing and what the best way to do it. And that's usually like, yeah, a flats boat or the red fishing trip. I did some kayak fishing for redfish down in the swamps of Louisiana. That was fun. But yeah, flats boats, john boats, jet boats, that type of stuff mostly.
Katie
Okay. That sounds like a lot of fun. Like how do you have all the time for this? I think I saw that you are you a guide most of the year?
Will
Yeah, yeah. So I have a guiding company called Buffalo Roamer Outdoors. We do wilderness trips. Canoe specifically is our specialty. So yeah, I have five trips that I'll be doing. So it's growing, but yeah, it's not a full-time occupation right now. But it's kind of my side hustle. And I'm also a farmer is what I do for my full-time job. Interesting. Yeah, I raise livestock pigs here in Illinois. So luckily it's a family farm operation that I run here, so it leaves a little bit of leeway. And I got a good crew of guys that I'm able to help me out for when I'm going and doing these trips. They're usually willing to help out as long as I tell them a couple stories.
Katie
I can confidently say you're the first full-time farmer I've talked to on the show. I feel like a lot of people might be kind of jealous of your setup. is your full-time gig and then in your off time do a little guiding in your side gig and then you just can go pay to have a bunch of fun in your time off. It sounds kind of like the dream for a lot of us, I think.
Will
Yeah. It's not a bad gig. The farming is a lot of work but yeah, it's great. It's so funny telling people that. There's always a little shock value. Not shock value, but yeah, it's so funny. Most people don't know a farmer, which generations ago, like all of our grandparents pretty much grew up on a farm or close to one because everybody had to be farmers back then. But yeah, it's pretty good. It works out pretty well. I get to be outside all the time, which obviously is a passion and it works out well for allowing me to do these other trips, which is a huge passion of mine as well. So yeah, it's not bad.
Katie
Tell me about your guided trips. If someone books a trip with you, what kinds of things can they do? What kinds of trips do you take?
Will
Yeah, so we do backcountry canoe trips is the specialty. So what we do is anywhere from three, I think the longest trip we have is up to the Yukon River up in northern Yukon territories in Canada, out of Whitehorse, Canada. That trip is eight days. So yeah, it's anywhere from three to eight days, just fully guided backcountry canoeing. So it's like a wilderness, a true wilderness experience, a wilderness reset. So we, for instance, I'll just use one trip that we do in Utah on the Green River in Utah. It'll be five days and there's tons of awesome, epic like side hikes that we'll do. We cook meals under the stars on the open fire and like awesome gazing. It's a pretty laid back pace. That's what I love about canoeing is that it lends itself to like you're in this insanely remote, just absolutely remarkable, beautiful place. But it's not like backpacking where you're hating every step until you get there and just thinking about when you're going to get the pack off or it's not strenuous like that. It's like all you're doing is just chilling in a boat. We paddle. We're actively paddling through much of the day. But yeah, it's pretty laid back. And they're small trips. So generally speaking, this fluctuates a little bit, but generally speaking, we have six people in a group, anywhere from six to eight typically. So super small dynamics. People get to know each other really well, form awesome friendships. the coolest thing that I think is people, it's so crazy, I'm sure you found this as well, like how well you get to know somebody camping with them in the backcountry just for a few days. Like, you know them so much better than you did even like being good friends with them for like five years. Like you spend three nights in the backcountry. It's like you kind of understand how they work and it's so cool seeing people, because we always think about on these trips, the selling point is always the spectacular beauty, the nature, the wilderness, getting away from it all. That's always why I go back and that's always why people sign up for it. But it's really the relationships that people form on these trips that is so special. Because you get to know people so well, you're all together, like on a team, you know, kind of reaching for the same goal and enjoying, enjoying the vacation and trip together. And yeah, the bonds that people form on those trips are really cool. And yeah, you know, I have all different kinds of group texts from the various trips that I've done over the years. And you know, they still go off, off at random times from trips, you know, years ago where people like, Hey, saw this and just remember, me think of X, Y, and Z, you know? So that's, I think, one of the neat parts, and I think what people unexpectedly enjoy, too.
Katie
Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't think I have a single close friend that I haven't spent at least two or three days in the wilderness with, just because it really solidifies a bond. I've got plenty of friends that I just get together with for drinks or whatever in town, but there's something different. There's a deeper level you don't reach until you've under a tarp in a hailstorm with somebody or something and you're just, you know, your bond is a little bit more solidified at that point when you're kind of forced to rely on each other, share things that you might not share in like a more casual setting where you're not being put to the test together. There's just something different about it.
Will
Yeah. And also, I think another part that plays into that is on these trips that we go on, there's no cell coverage. We're like, we're out there. We're out in the middle of the backcountry. No light pollution, nothing, but no cell coverage. So it's not like you're like hiding, like when we're like we're sitting around the campfire at night, like telling stories, laughing, you're not like tucked away on your phone because you could pull your phone out, go for it, you know, take a few photos, but it's not going to do any good other than that. So I think that that lends itself to kind of the unique group dynamics that these trips have as well. And like I said, just the spectacular beauty and most of these places that we go, they're some of the most spectacular wilderness destinations in North America. And people don't, especially city folk, don't get that very often. Yeah, this last trip I had a gal from New York City, One from LA, and two from San Diego. And yeah, it's cool to be able to share those raw wilderness amazing experiences with folks who maybe don't get to see that all the time.
Katie
Do folks get to fish on these trips, or are they generally busy dealing with the canoe? I don't know if you're able to just steer whoever's in your canoe around, and you can take turns fishing or paddling or people kind of on the on the spot the whole time trying to like just logistically do things and they don't have time to to cast?
Will
No totally that's the best thing about these trips is I take care of I take care of all the logistics and all of the like not maybe quote-unquote not fun stuff so yeah there's like tons of time for fishing, swimming, hiking like if somebody wants to do something and the group is down with it like we do it. Yeah of the trip in Utah has really good catfishing. So yeah, we did a bunch of catfishing on that trip that we were just down there in October, caught some decent channel catfish. And yeah, tons of opportunity for that. The green is kind of, yeah, pretty much just catfish, unfortunately. Fortunately, unfortunately, I like catfish, but we didn't get into any huge ones, But yeah, plenty of time for fishing, swimming, reading, telling stories, whatever people want to do, we do it.
Katie
Do you have to ever coach people on what to do when you're- if you're in the back of the boat paddling, let's say, and someone's trying to cast a rod for the first time, are you trying to talk them through it while you're handling the boat?
Will
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the name of the game, is- teaching people and I love sharing, I don't even think of it as much as teaching, it's just like sharing, if somebody's interested in it, I've had a passion for this stuff my whole life, so I've accrued at least, I don't know much, but I know a little bit, I've accrued a little bit of knowledge and so yeah, dude, to be able to share that with somebody, that's the best, I love doing it. And yeah, so I bring all of the fishing gear 'cause most of the people want to fish, they'll write like, "Hey, are we gonna be able to fish?" But they're kind of newbies, so they're not proficient in it. So yeah, I bring all the fishing gear, they just get their license. And then it's not like a guided fishing trip like you would have if you went to wherever, but with a guide who's looking over your shoulder, watching for fish every time. But yeah, no, I'm totally instructing people, rigging people up, putting us in positions, we're like into fishy spots, yeah, and all that.
Katie
Do you ever keep fish, either on your personal trips or guided trips? Like do you ever keep fish to cook over the fire at night?
Will
Totally, yeah. I'm, personally, I would say I'm probably like 95%, maybe 96% catch and release when I'm personally fish. If I'm catching walleye, I love walleye, so I'll keep walleye. My girlfriend really likes eating walleye too, so that helps. But sometimes I'll keep some trout if it's like a nice small eater trout or something in like a backcountry lake or a backcountry spot that's not hammered a bunch. And then on the trips, it seems like people do like cooking the fish. So yeah, we'll keep a fish or two on a trip if it's something that people want to do. But yeah, I think it's a unique and kind of a cool experience for folks to be able to catch something that they ate or eat something that they caught, especially when it's like they're not diehard anglers or it's not something that they get the opportunity to do all the time or even would know how to do, you know?
Katie
Well, it sounds like a canoe is kind of the perfect vehicle to keep fish in the backcountry because we don't tend to keep a lot of fish when we're backpacking just because you have to eat it kind of right away. You don't have a cooler to keep it cold or anything. So unless you're going to keep it and then throw it in the fire within maybe a couple hours, we're throwing most of them back. And then we'll keep some more if we're in a place like a cabin or something where we can bring them back. But the canoe, you can just throw the cooler in and you could be in the backcountry but still have the ability to keep fish cold for a little bit longer if you want to save it for a day or two, which sounds really luxurious.
Will
Totally. It's great. Yeah. Like I said, it's one of my favorite parts and the advantages of the canoe. Bring the cooler, got it iced down, bring the kitchen sink. Yeah, sometimes too. We'll just keep them on the stringer and and throw them over the side of the boat as we're going You know if we're keeping fish
Katie
Cool. Well, um, do you want to just wrap up by telling me about your podcast some more and any other places that people can Find you if they want to either book a trip with you or just listen to your show or send you an email
Will
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so my podcast is called Buffalo roamer outdoors Yeah, you can find it anywhere Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all the same places that you're listening to this great show. We talk about canoeing, backpacking, through hiking, what else? All kinds of crazy stuff. I talked to an Alaskan smoke jumper who had tons of cool stories about smoke jumping and then living off of the land. He did a 70-day trip living off the land. We brought nothing with him other than fishing gear and a rifle and lived off the land for 70 days. What else? Talked to a guy who skateboarded from Chicago to New York City. That one was different, kind of interesting. Jeff Currier, if anglers of this podcast might know him, he's a well-known fly fishing angler. I think he has the most species of anyone ever on fly. I've had him on the show. So yeah, talk to a bunch of good people. Uh, Buffalo Roamer outdoors is the name of that show. Go check that out. And then the website is buffalo roamer.com. Uh, I have all of the trips that we do, uh, as well as all the blogs from my Mississippi trip, from the Yukon trip. I have a fishing blog that I do up there. I try and I'm not as good as I should be, but I try and do a little blog for, for most of the fishing trips that I go on throughout the year. Those are fun. Yeah, shoot me an email buffaloroamer@yahoo.com is my email. I'm always stoked to talk canoeing, paddling, fishing, backcountry stuff, you name it. So yeah, that's kind of the rundown on how to get a hold of me. Social media I guess @buffaloroamer on Instagram and the same on Facebook.
Katie
Great and folks will get a little preview of your show too because it sounds like we're gonna do a swap. So I'm going to come on your show tomorrow and get to relax on the other side of the mic for once. I love being a guest. Yeah, exactly.
Will
It's nice. I asked you to go first when we set this up because I just got off work and I rushed over here and I didn't have time to prep and do all the normal stuff that I would when I'm the host. So yeah, it's nice just to turn the computer on and talk.
Katie
Right. Yes, I'm looking forward to that. And it sounds like we're going to release both episodes on both channels. So anyone who wants kind of a teaser or preview of your show, I guess we'll get it. And I'll be your guest. Who knows when it will come out, but people will get a little taste of what your show has to offer. And I'm guessing people who are into backcountry fishing are also interested in hearing about someone surviving off the land for 70 days, as well as everything else you cover. Pretty big overlap there. So hopefully people will check out your show and hear some cool stories from other folks doing fun stuff in the outdoors.
Will
Yeah, totally. And thanks for keeping crushing your show. Yeah, I've always enjoyed tuning in and usually I'll like kind of go through the list if I'm going on a fishing trip to a new place or something, it'll be like, okay, this guy's talking about, you know, whatever type of fish it is that I'm looking for. I'll be like, okay, I'll, I'll listen to this one and see, uh, you know, see if I can pick, pick up a few tips before I hit the water. So yeah, keep crushing it.
Katie
Awesome. Thank you, Will. Um, appreciate the kind words and, um, I'll talk to you again soon.
Will
Okay. Sounds good. Thanks, Katie.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me, and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening, and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
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