Ep 90: Ethical Harvesting, with Jess Gantos
Jess Gantos is a hunter and angler who splits her time between New Mexico and Ohio. She is a Program Assistant Lead with Project Healing Waters, a new member of New Mexico Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and Ohio Women on the Fly participant. In this episode, we talk about some of her recent hunts, how she practices ethical harvesting as a way to connect with her food and environment, and her first written piece accepted by a fly fishing magazine.
Instagram: @justjessno_e
Email: jessgantos@gmail.com
Project Healing Waters Instagram: @phwff
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 90 with Jess Gantos on ethical harvesting. all right great well I always like to start every episode with getting a background on my guests like especially their fishing background. I know you and I are going to talk about a little bit of hunting too so I kind of want to get your overall yeah how did you get into the outdoors?
Jess
oh well the outdoors in general I guess so yeah growing up in like a suburb of Cleveland I was born in Cleveland proper but I don't have memories of that I moved quick like very early on moved to the suburbs and stuff so my like my best friend's backyard was just woods and there was a creek and a pretty small creek but as a kid it was like you know this massive body of or to like explore so ever since I was a kid my parents like I mean I feel like our generation probably like we were encouraged to like be outside all the time and stuff and like so grateful for that and so the outdoors has always been a pretty important place to me and like the house that I grew up in out here I just drove by it the other day and the like massive tree in the backyard that was like I considered like one of my like best friends essentially it was they had cut it down and I like literally cried because I was like oh my gosh I can't believe it but so like the outdoors have always been like whatever capacity like a single tree or like a backyard or like a creek or the woods or whatever animals and stuff I'd always catch like you know like salamanders and you know like crawdads and stuff but yeah so I feel like outdoors is like for me it was almost like like a like a sacred like sanctuary kind of you know and but so I've always been around it but I didn't grow up like camping we would go on like maybe like a camping trip every once in a while but but yeah we didn't do a whole lot of that like nobody in my family hunts or fishes my brother actually he moved to Michigan for a while and he like started to get into bow hunting for deer and but he just had about one season out there doing it and he just listening to him talk about it was exciting but it was that was like years before I really got into fishing and hunting and stuff so that's kind of the extent of like growing up with this kind of stuff it was probably like maybe like five years ago that I got into fly fishing and a guy that I was seeing we're still like really good friends today he took me out to fly fish on this caldera so this like acres and acres of like you know concave volcano dormant technically I mean technically it's still like possibly could erupt but hasn't erupted a long time it's actually really good elk hunting out that way but there's this really narrow stream that runs through there and that was my first ever fly fishing experience and it was it was like there's no trees it's just basically big open plain like tall grass and you'd have to like we had to like army crawl to the edge of the bank can like just toss a dry fly like not even a nymph or anything because it was just very shallow very narrow and you're like targeting like super small maybe like I don't like a few feet wide stretches and I like fell in love with it immediately and yeah that's kind of what got me started and then thankfully he like his name's Billy my good buddy and he let me he let me He was his dad's old fly rod, which was super special. It was something that his dad taught him. So he kind of passed it down to me. And yeah, I started going out every weekend, pretty much any time I had a chance. It just instantly took over.
Katie
That's interesting that you kind of just, I don't know, tried it one day and then stuck with it. Because I feel like a lot of people, they either had a lingering desire to do it and they finally make that happen. But it still takes a lot of going and really making it happen. to just have like a single experience where you're like boom that's it like I'm I'm hooked now although I guess I do hear a lot of those too like some people say just clicked one day where they're like oh my god I can never picture like my life without this it sounds like that's kind of what you had
Jess
yeah for sure yeah because I think it's like I always used to like I would always like take myself on like hikes or like camping trips and stuff in my adult life and stuff like I would do I was proactive and I was around a lot of people throughout my like 20s and stuff that I like to, you know, camp and hike and all that kind of stuff. But I really wasn't around a lot of specifically hunting or fishing per se. And so I feel like the fishing for me, it like, it kind of connected all the dots. I love, I have like, I'm diagnosed like ADHD as many of us do in this like modern world as we know. But I like, essentially all that stuff kind of clicked with fishing where I was like, oh my God, like it all like makes sense. Like I was able to hyper focus on like the sounds that I was making through the grass and the like visual to body, like, like movement and coordination. And I love animals like so much and always have. And so the fact that you get to interact with an animal, hopefully, right. If you like successfully get something. So it just sort of, I think that's like the parts of what like clicked essentially was, it was the first time that I felt like every part of my like brain, like that likes to work in its own. divergent ways it had something to focus on and it like satiated parts of my brain as well as like just obviously the like the like badassness that it is just to be outside standing in a river like in a caldera like seeing snow-capped mountains and either like wild brown trout and there's elk bugling in the back it's just you know it's a whole list but yeah no it really was pretty pretty instant for me yeah just like pretty much took over but
Katie
I've heard that part of what people like about fly fishing is that distraction. Sometimes it's in the context of like there's stress going on in my life, like bills to pay and chores to yeah it's like a running theme do and things to do at work. And it kind of takes you out of it. But in the way you describe it, like that's kind of how I feel. I generally don't, I'm not that stressed out about my life, but I find myself like I'm very fidgety. I always have to be like doing something. If my hands aren't busy, then they're like looking for something to do. And it's like, I feel like that's where fly fishing is nice because even other forms of fishing you might be kind of standing there doing not much for a portion of it and in fly fishing it's like your brain is occupied both hands are occupied both hands are actively doing something the whole time and it really like calms my whole body as just like okay every yeah every part is like busy right now and that's kind of I identify more like how you're describing it where it's just like everything's all over the place but this is one like focused place to put all of your energy and it just kind of like soothes you and it makes like at ease.
Jess
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, totally. It's cool to hear. Yeah. You have a similar sort of sensation around it. Sure. It's so true.
Katie
Yeah. Maybe if you're, if you're comfortable sitting on a couch doing nothing and not moving your hands, then maybe it's not for you. But if, if you're like, I can't sit for more than five minutes without, you know, wanting to find something to occupy myself, that that's, I think that's who draws in for sure. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. So how did you get into hunting then?
Jess
So hunting was a really cool, slow intro. I moved out to New Mexico in my, hold on my 34. I moved there maybe like 20. I moved there about like 10 years ago, I'd say, give or take. I visited a few times, but officially moved there about a decade ago. Although I've been here for the last two years, but in between New Mexico and Ohio. But I had the first place I ever rented when I moved to Santa Fe was this little casita behind this person's house on this property and they one of the people that lived in a house they hunted and so his name's Mark he's like in his like early 60s so him and a good buddy of his from like like his childhood friend they're like still buddies he he has since moved to Vermont and has been there a long time he would come back every season to hunt with Mark you know he didn't do out-of-state tax he would just like assist and Mark would hunt and so they just like had been hunting together so they'd come back to the property you know like essentially just elated and exhausted from their hunting trips and I was like I need to know about what you're doing and so I was like my first introduction to hunting was truly like there'd be like an elk head hanging in one of the trees and a hide strewn about over like a fence or something and then but then they'd come in with all the like the quarters and all that stuff and then they'd be butchering and so I would just kind of like pop it me and Mark and Josh and Mark's partner Helen we were all really close so you know we would have dinners together all the time blah blah so but basically when I'd see these like elk parks everywhere and then they would be spending like you know if they filled a couple attacks with it other buddies come out maybe spending days butchering so I would just go over and I like just wanted to help and they're like yes please you have to process so much meat and so I was like all right and I didn't know how I was gonna do with like that much flesh and like blood and all of that and I'm like in my like younger days and stuff I would be if I saw a lot of blood like I like cut my knee once and like I mean I should have got stitches I did not get stitches but my whole knee was like exposed and I like passed out like as a kid like so I've had some squeamish stuff around blood so when I would go in to their house so there's just meat everywhere like covering their kitchen table that extra table set up trying to you know hold everything I like really didn't know how I was going to respond but then yeah when I asked if I could help they're like yes please and I got into it and I think the first thing I ever cut was like the rump roast you know like I cut the back like one of the hind quarters you know and then like cut out like the football shape it was just so fascinating to me so I probably helped butcher for like five years oh wow before before I even considered going on a hunt like I had raised some turkeys and chickens and stuff and I had slaughtered those before which was super hard for me to navigate because that was also a first me I didn't grow up with that kind of stuff so I feel like I actually like the first turkey I ever slaughtered I had it in my mind like this is a good step between butchering and then going and taking something's life and and for fishing I had been fishing between this time but I had mostly did catch release I would keep some fish and you know if it was like a nice size like healthy trout I'd keep it first time I did that I cried too because it was like a female there's eggs and I was like oh my gosh I was like It was a lot, you know. But because I eat meat and I eat fish, I kept wanting to, like, work through those things. And, yeah, so back to the hunting thing. Yeah, like I said, I probably helped butcher for, like, five years and then slaughtered that turkey. And, I mean, I had anxiety for, like, a month building up to the slaughtering of the turkey. I had, like, nightmares of it, like, looking at me from the oven. Like, it was just this whole, like, exaggerated thing. But yeah, so finally I said to Mark and Josh, I was like, hey, I think I want to, you know, I think I want to put in for a hunt. And I would love to, I'd love to be able to go. And obviously I'll need, I hadn't even shot a gun really at this point. So I was like, obviously I'm going to need a lot of like, I'm going to give myself a lot of time to practice and like, you know, just really get prepped for it. And I already run pretty much every day, but I like double the time I ran in the mornings. and yeah I just kind of made some conscious choices around it so I had a lot of time to prepare and yeah so the first time I put in for a tag I didn't get I didn't draw but then we had friends of friends that had extra tags she was like some land so she had some extra private land tags and by the time that hunt came around because I didn't draw so I didn't I assumed I wasn't going to hunt that year because you know it's like usually like you find out what in like or something and so I kind of like slacked on prepping and stuff so I didn't practice shooting that much and blah blah and it was last minute that they're like hey we actually have a tag for you if you want to come and I was like oh crap I haven't even really been practicing so by the time that hunt came around I didn't feel confident in my shooting skills so it honestly worked out perfectly so all I did is I assisted so I just like helped I like carried a rifle I kind of got like the lay of the land figured out how essentially to navigate you know that was the first time I saw that's the first time I like helped pull meat off the mountain but they actually the only elk we got that time they had lost it so a lot of the meat was lost so really we just kind of like quartered a couple pieces and then brought it back and I wasn't even physically there as they did that I was back at camp hunting with well I was hunting with someone else and so the first time I ever hunted was really a perfect once again it was this really gradual these steps into hunting and then cut to last year I put in for a public hunt and this one particular unit that it's like one of those like once in a lifetime like hunts and it was a bull tag and yeah so I drew for a public land hunt which felt better for me which you know it's a mixed bag with private and public and I have a lot of like I have a lot of like ethical struggle like ethics kind of like ethos around it where I'm like like we're limited on like like our numbers have gone down right with like the allotted tax for public hunts and stuff and that's a big issue although there has just been like re-upping essentially in New Mexico it was just passed so that's really cool but I can get into that and I don't want to go too far but essentially I felt everything felt right on this last time the one last year and it was our base camp where we parked our trucks was at like 8 000 feet and then our where we camped at which was all just you couldn't bring any path we could have probably taken like an east like an access road around the back but it was it that was also private so we would have had like reached out so it was just like yeah we're just backpacking everything in and we hacked up about 2 000 feet and that was our base camp and yeah I think it was like three to three days or something into the hunt we barely saw that many animals up there because you know they're typically like they they are enjoying the you know they'll obviously like traverse like the mountains and stuff but you know they like to graze and like big open pasture so but we figured we'd be away from all the other people that were hunting so and it's just a beautiful spot so anyway so we got up there and yeah I think it was a few days in and we were in the it was a morning one of like the more you know like right before sunrise we like hiked out and stuff and like I said didn't see anything I saw like a pack of deer mule deer running and then I saw antlers and so I was like oh my gosh this is it you know this is the big moment and I like dropped down on my like lay down and kind of like positioned I had like the bipod up and and then I saw there's a bunch of mule deer but so then I was like oh never mind and then I think it was like maybe a not even an hour later there was one lone bull we were like deep in ponderosas and yeah it was ponderosas and aspens like because we were up so high and all I could see was like the shoulder front of the shoulder to the back of the shoulder and I didn't even see antlers so actually my buddy had to like quietly army crawl around until he saw antlers and he gave me like a silent thumbs up and yeah and then I yeah everything like went silent you know I like held it in position and I definitely like second guessed I was like am I even looking at the right part of the elk you know I'm going through all these things in my mind because it was mostly hidden I really just saw that one segment of the shoulder and I just like like confirmed with myself I was like no no this is that's that's what you're this is the shot this is what you want and yeah I felt like everything went quiet like there was like not even I didn't hear a bird I didn't hear the wind rustling no nothing I just like took the shot and and essentially I just was like sort of like I didn't like black out but it kind of felt like it right so I took the shot and then I saw the elk's move and I finally saw it in full view and then it stumbled and then everything went so everything went silent after I heard that crash but then after that crash and all that sound it's like all the noise of the forest like came back and yeah we waited about like 10 minutes well maybe longer gave it time to pass obviously didn't want to spook it and I was pretty I was hopeful that it was a clear shot you know I didn't have to quickly take a second shot or anything so we just let it pass and then hiked you know walk towards it eventually and then I saw some antlers moving and you know my heart is obviously like racing this is the first time I've ever taken a shot at an antler and and then yeah I actually started I saw that it was still rustling and so my my friend Mark was like quietly was like hey you know you should take a second shot because I was trying to get up and stuff and I I started like weeping and I was like I can't see through this scope right now you know but we were standing right next to it right so he just he was such a good support like zero words really at this point he just kind of like looked at me and just suggested like you know he kind of put his hands out like pointing towards the elk like you should this is you know place it here you know and so yeah so I like took the shot and then I just like I dropped my knees I said thank you like a million times to the elk you know I said sorry a million times the elk and yeah we did like a little moment and we like did he's trained in like in the four directions like opening up four directions and closing them so we did like a a moment of a prayer so open up a circle and close a circle and yeah my friend like embraced me and like he just was so pumped you know that that was it and I mean it was yeah it was incredible and yeah I just like cut to from like this is how I got started
Katie
yeah that's awesome that's an amazing first hunt. like that's about as like well as it can go
Jess
that's what that's exactly what all my hunting buddies were like so you know Jess like this is it's probably all downhill from here and I was like oh my gosh that's good to know and also I feel so great I'm so grateful then that that was like the experience but what was so cool about that was the physical the physical like wear that it took right it took us we had to hike all of our water up all of our stuff we had to hike it up 2,000 feet I had gotten him at 500 feet higher so it took four of us three tricks to bring everything down the mountain so you're traversing this 2,000 foot climb multiple times in a day with like I weigh like I don't know like 118 so it's like half of my body weight I'm carrying it right so it's like yeah and you're up at yeah 10,000 feet and it felt right as opposed to this like The private hunt, I'm super grateful that I had the opportunity to hunt that. I had an opportunity to hunt private this year. I definitely took it. I took the opportunity. I didn't draw again for public. Once again, I kind of struggled with that. But all my buddies that hunt, they're like, no, you've got to go. I will say there's something to be said about when you have to push yourself that hard physically. Obviously, we all know it when you hunt. Even when you fish, right? It's like mentally, emotionally, physically, like you're just really pushing yourself to your limits daily for like however long your tag is good for, like typically five days for all, right? So it's for rifles. So it's like you're just really pushing yourself nonstop. And once again, that ties into that feeling of like all of your – like your whole self is being utilized and you're in an environment. if you enjoy the outdoors you like hunting obviously those typically go hand in hand hopefully so it's like hopefully I know there is some like really fancy hunting of course out there and you know teach their own I guess but just different kind of vibes but yeah that it's another way to utilize all those parts of your brain and your and your body and then you get to feed yourself and your friends and my dog eats all the weird parts that no one wants you know it's like I have I always keep the hot like there's so as you know and as hunters like as we know it's like there's just nothing like it I'm like I'm obsessed with it I think about it every year I get so excited when I put in for a hunt and then you know just like waiting to see if you get something and oh my gosh
Katie
yeah everything you're saying is resonating so much with me even down to when you were like I weigh 118 and this thing was like half my body weight I also weigh 118 and also carry an elk hindquarter at this year and I was thinking the same thing I was like this thing ways like half of me I fell over like five times on the way out and I was just like you know once you start to tip over there's no stopping it because it's like
Jess
no no there isn't that was amazing yes it's true I like definitely almost ate shit multiple times yeah for sure
Katie
it's hard to explain to people who don't hunt though I was talking to my my sister and her family and we had like a we had a miserable pack out this year it was just horrible we came out like four different routes because every route we did we were like that we can't do that again like let's try a different way and you know it was it was kind of a disaster but after and at the time we're like this is this is so horrible why have we done this like this is the worst decision we've ever made and like three days later we're like that was awesome like you know and it always happens yeah yeah so now we're telling the story to to her and we're like yeah it was it was amazing like we were we were just like so beat up and so scratched up and our muscles are so sore and she's like why do you do this again? Like, it doesn't sound fun. I was like, I can't explain it to you. Like, it wasn't fun, but now it was. Like, now looking back at it, I cannot wait to do it again. But at the time, I was so miserable. And I feel like when you talk to someone else who's done it, they totally get it. They're like, yeah, it sucks. And it's amazing. Both those things are true. And someone who's never done it. Yeah, they can coexist. Right, right. They're the same thing. And someone who's never done it before is like, it just sounds like it sucks. Like I, you know, you can't express like why it, why it's so satisfying. And then you get home, like you said, you feed yourself for the rest of the year. And it just like, you know, it, it, it's a year long thing because you're always preparing for it. You're, you're feeding yourself from it. So it lasts all year long, but it's like, sometimes it boils down to like, you know, 10 seconds of good luck where that animal just happens to be in the right spot. And like that, that makes your whole year in that like one instance. It's just like, you cannot explain that to someone who hasn't experienced it, but it's so satisfying to talk to someone who gets it because yeah so how has your season been this year have you have you had some luck this year?
Jess
yeah so yeah this year was good um well I didn't draw public but yeah the same friend who had well friend of a friend who has property yeah she had she actually had some like weird stuff for some guides that were out on her land last year that she actually found a couple of single point elk male elk and they weren't harvested because technically there was one point and they needed to, to bring it. So she, and she's like walking her property, like non, she's very, very close and intimate, like with her land, which is really a beautiful thing. Um, but yeah, so she found some, some elk that were essentially, I mean, technically poached, I guess. And so she, yeah, she kind of got skittish with the people that she had allowed on her property, over the last couple of years. And so she had extra tags again, and she yeah she like trusted our crew and stuff that you know we wouldn't do that we actually just had we had cow tax anyway so odds would be low that you know we'd be trying to take something you know it's usually pretty obvious and so anyways yeah so she had some extra tax so we went out and the landowner camped with us and she was just so amazing and helpful with like basically we we essentially had a scout in a way right because she had been on her she lives there right so she's like constantly driving around hiking around checking everything out listening for bugles you know throughout the whole season and all that stuff so it was really helpful to have her help guide essentially like she we all went on our own and stuff but she was like that general direction may be good or there's this meadow and you know there is water still in that whole so if you want to go that way or you know this this pond is dry or you know those kinds of things and stuff so yeah so this time what was really cool about I mean obviously every hunt is cool even if you don't get something but obviously it's so satisfying to actually get something but but what was really cool about this time is I went I went on my own like I had my whole hunting crew on the mountain with we were all there on the mountain but I had gone out on my own for a few mornings and stuff and and a couple of night hunts and stuff so I went on like an evening hunt I left at like I don't know like three something this is funny it's like when you hunt and you say evening it's like three o'clock yeah yeah yeah and so we had already done like a morning hunt and I was with a another friend of mine and her and I her and I were tracking oh my gosh like who knows I it was I felt like it was like all day but of course it was probably like you know like 5 30 we left well 5 or 5 30 we left camp got back around like noon or something but that whole stretch of time you know we posted up in this big meadow that we had seen some tracks that like sign the day before so we waited there for me like until sunrise obviously you need to wait and so we like waited for the sunrise and then we didn't see anything and so we just kept going further up and up the mountain and there was thick with aspens and ponderosas well not super thick with aspens at this point actually mostly aspens I'm sorry mostly ponderosas and some other pines and stuff and so we started going up there and we followed like oh like a hot trail for like what I felt like every time which is everybody knows this few months right it's like you feel like they're just around the corner and then you're like well let's keep going and then you're like wow this like shit is literally not hard as a rock oh this this pile is actually lukewarm and you're like you know each each side you see you're like oh my gosh it's getting closer and didn't see anything but that was like a really that was also the first time that I led sort of like a tracking like segment or whatever and my friend Regina she was like she was like damn she's like I think this is like she's like you like didn't talk for like six hours she was like I just like followed you and was so like excited and like convinced we were gonna see something and it was just really great exchange like we obviously stopped at some point to like eat some food and she was telling me all this and we were just like laughing our asses off because I was like oh my gosh you're right like I have spoken zero words to you for so long and she didn't either you know we were just both like totally zoned out and yeah so that was a good day but that was like a long day of not really seeing anything well elk wise and then we saw some like mule deer and then I think it was I don't know if it was that night or maybe the next evening hunt I went out I was like screw it like if they heard me and her like maybe I just need to go solo and maybe it'll give me like a little bit more opportunity just like being more quiet and stuff and she wanted to go to this other spot we had passed anyway so she went to this one spot my other friends were like completely other side of the mountain and I got up to this one spot and I had passed the day before as well with and decided that's where I was gonna go anyway so I like found this little spot at the base of these three pines and you know I cleared it all out and like kind of like built up some extra little like cover and stuff and the view that I had was there was almost like three three like elk highways kind of you know like where they could have like come down to and so I positioned myself just up a little higher so I could look down all the spots and kind of get there was maybe like distance wise I'm trying to think I'm so bad at like thinking of like yarns and stuff but maybe like a couple hundred yards would have been the first available shot like through the trees and and kind of and then like give or take each one of those highways so that was kind of what I was like looking at and And then, yeah, and then it started hailing and raining. And I was like, okay, cool. And I just covered myself with my rain gear and had my rifle off to my side and would just kind of like peek up from time to time and scan the area. And, you know, the temperature just dropped so drastically. So I was like really just trying to like maintain body heat. And it was still – I probably still had like three hours until sunset. So, and it just kept dropping and dropping and the sun had gone behind the mountain and stuff. So, well, it was actually, it was starting to, and actually there was this beautiful, like rainbow, like just appeared to the like North of me, about like 60 something yards. And it like ended between like an Aspen and a Ponderosa. And I was like literally the end of the rainbow. And then like, I like looked away, I looked back towards those elk highways after seeing and there was a single female elk just standing. She was probably, same thing, like 60-something yards away from me, kind of just like really big steps over these big fall, you know, like pick-up sticks, all the aspens had dropped. So she was loud, but I think because it was hailing, I didn't even hear her. So it sort of seemed like she appeared out of nowhere, which, of course, she did not.
Katie
It sort of seemed like it. It always seems like that, though.
Jess
yeah I mean it totally does yeah because I didn't I didn't really hear her right so it was just me and it was just her for like she didn't have a herd with her and it was just me I didn't have my crew with me right so I just but I hadn't I had mistakenly put my rifle on my left side I'm right-handed I put my rifle on my left side and I was like oh crap so I'm like trying she's perfectly broadside by the way so she's like walking broadside to my to the north and yeah so I like shed my like raincoat and I'm trying to like bring the rifle off to my right side like in front of me and like I think I get it like halfway to the other side and she sees movement and we look at each other and I'm like definitely not supposed to look at her right in the eyes but I can't help it and so then so we so I stopped moving I swear she like we both like were like holding our breath it seemed you know and then she eventually resumed a movement so I was able to get the rifle all the way to my right side and I think I was like kneeling kneeling up you know I was like just sitting sitting up on my knees or something and so yeah I just lifted, lifted the rifle up and, yeah, placed the shot well enough that she, it was right between, there was like a lung shot. And, and yeah, she actually stumbled towards me and she was probably, she stumbled all like another 40 yards toward me. So she was only like 20 yards. We were literally just facing each other. And then she stumbled back and dropped right where I had taken the shot and of course it felt like an eternity she actually dropped really fast and then I like came out of the trees that little nest I had made and quickly took a second shot because I saw you know of course like the look in her eyes and I was like oh shit you know she just looks so terrified and so yeah so I took a second shot and that was well placed too and same thing if anybody saw me they probably were like oh my gosh this person's losing it because I'm like crying, saying thank you, saying sorry, like all of these things and stuff. And my radio goes off. My buddy's like, hey, I just heard a shot. I think some elk might be coming your way. And I was like, no, no, I got mine. I got one, I think is what I said. And he was like, he clearly didn't hear me because he's like, no, no, I think that there's some coming your way. I was like, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm like, I'm sitting here. She's, she's down, she's passed. I'm just sitting here like with her and stuff. And he's like, oh, okay. I'm on my way. Like, you know, whatever, like hung up or whatever. And yeah, he made his way over and stuff. And yeah. So it was cool. Cause I got this one-on-one time with my, well, I got this solo time just being there by myself and, you know, processing all that and learning all the fine details of even just the simple thing of like, okay, keep your rifle on the correct side when you wait.
Katie
That is such a big thing. the little things that you don't realize, you're like, that wouldn't be a big deal. Like if you just thought about that beforehand, like, oh, you know what I needed, I'll just move my rifle to the right side. You don't realize, you know, when it's like go time, how these tiny little things like really matter. Like for me, it was this year I had my earplugs in my pocket and I couldn't get my hand in my pocket because, you know, like she's looking right at me and my hand is not near my pocket. right now so it's like so it's like okay I make a mental note you need to have your earplugs like somewhere up you know maybe in your bino harness or something like somewhere where you won't have to make as much movement and just like these little things you learn over time where no the next time you go hunting I bet you're gonna put your rifle on the right side because yeah like you've had to learn it the hard way
Jess
yes for sure yeah. wait so so did you go out this year?
Katie
Yeah, yeah. We did archery elk and then we did rifle pronghorn with my buddy and rifle whitetail about two weeks ago. So we've been on a handful of hunts.
Jess
Oh my gosh, amazing. Yes. Oh, that's great. Oh, I'm so pumped for you. I have great aspirations to get to bow hunting for sure.
Katie
It is. So I've been bow hunting for a couple of years and my fiance actually got into hunting like through me, but he started with rifle too, as you know, as most people do. And he got a deer, I don't know, his first or second season. He got a muley doe and he eventually just was like jealous of the fact that archery season is like a month long and it's in like nice weather. Like it wasn't even about like the weapon itself. It was like, man, archery hunting seems really like pleasant and rifle hunting is always like a blizzard and you get five days and there's people everywhere yes and so he switched to archery because of that and it's like yeah it's really nice because the weather in September is just beautiful and you have all month to go and you can like we can practice in our backyard you know it's it's like really easy to go out and shoot a little bit nice yeah so that's like why we like it I mean it's way harder you don't get animals very often but the whole process is just very pleasant
Jess
and what's the range what's what's like the desired range again
Katie
like out to 40 or so
Jess
okay okay yeah
Katie
yeah it's definitely really challenging but the pros outweigh the cons for us and we're okay with like not getting stuff most of the time you know we've got other tags we can get you know we'll go prong horn hunting with with rifles and deer hunting and stuff like that so it's what we definitely still do some rifle hunting but archery is like where we like to focus our time when we can because it's like a really pleasant hunt so you should definitely oh that's cool I think you've got a couple rifle hunts under your belt you should definitely like pick up a bow and give it a try
Jess
yeah yeah on that same friend who actually taught me how to who introduced me to fly fishing he he bow hunts for elk and stuff but yeah he basically says the same stuff he's like yes I'm by myself out there and it's beautiful and then it's like you know they're really beautifully I feel like at that time so it's like yeah yeah and then you have to get close right so it's like yeah the stories that he that we exchange about hunting is always so beautiful and then when he tells me about his like bow hunts I'm like oh my gosh that sounds magical like his the whole description of what's going on around you in those early season hunts like that it's like no there's got to be nothing like it
Katie
yeah it kind of it's like I've heard people describe it like fly what fly fishing is to like conventional fishing it's like bow hunting to rifle hunting like Both are fun, but there's something that, you know, a lot of people, I feel like they've tried fly fishing and they're like, this is what I was meant to do. And kind of the same way where you pick up a bow and you're like, this feels like what I wanted to be doing. Um, so if you, you know, if you like fly fishing over conventional fishing, I could see, you know, you really gravitating toward bow hunting. If you give it a try, I mean, you got to drop some money on the gear, but like once you do it, it's, it's really fun. So you should definitely give it a try.
Jess
Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely adding to my excitement around it. That's just talking about it.
Katie
Yeah, for sure. oh so cool kind of tying this back into fishing I saw a lot of like a couple things you mentioned on the the sheet I sent over to you beforehand a lot of things were centered around like the harvest of fish that's something that I often don't like talk to people about just because you know a lot of people are catching release or it doesn't it's not really relevant to the topic but I saw you kind of had like a focus on like an ethical harvest and I was really interested in picking your brain about that just because I you know we also keep some fish sometimes and And I've noticed, you know, something that people do, even if they hunt and they want to be like, you know, take that extra shot to get the animal to die quicker. Then they'll just like throw their fish up on shore and not kill them. And it's like, you know, why don't you want to give the fish the same kind of death? And I kind of assume that you might have some thoughts on this since you mentioned like the ethical harvest of fish. So I just wanted to like hear your thoughts on that.
Jess
Oh, yeah. You know, I did cut out for a second when you said that people will sometimes bring the fish to the bank.
Katie
Oh, yeah. Just that people will sometimes like they'll be ethical in their hunts, but then, you know, they don't deliberately kill their fish. They might just throw their fish on ice or throw their fish on shore. And it's like, you know, that fish doesn't want to die any slower, more painfully than any other animal out there.
Jess
I completely agree. Yeah. Yes, that's a really that's a really good point. Yeah, I think it's funny. I think I actually have like, naively made the assumption that if I see that with fishing, they probably don't hunt. But no, but there's definitely overlap.
Katie
There definitely is.
Jess
100%. I think that was like a really interesting little like block that I had made. But yeah, no, I think that, well, first off, I do think I understand. Obviously, we are in a situation within our climate and everything and our like resources. I think animals, I understand and I grew up with thinking of like animals as a resource. I don't think of it that way anymore. And so we'll say it's like, it's kind of like, to me, it's difficult. It's complex, right? So it's like animals are resources in some capacity, right? If you think of resources in the terms of like harvesting, right? Which is what hunting, a lot of hunters do. Well, primarily for hunting, unless it's like sport hunting, but blah, blah, blah. But for fishing too, right? If you're not doing catch and release, it's, you know, you are harvesting an animal. So it's easy to kind of like use the term resource with harvesting. but I personally just think that like I think as humans we're just like another species and so I don't think we're greater or lesser than a fish or a bird or an elk or a plant even you know obviously things that are more anthropomorphic like it's easier to have a connection with and in a and like to have a relationship with I think but I think so there's that part of it So for myself, I just, I think of like, I really do actually, and I didn't really realize this. I didn't have the language for this as a kid, but I've always thought of animals as like my like neighbors or like, and or friends, you know? And I like find myself, it's actually kind of funny. I often find myself when I'm like fishing solo and stuff, like I see like a chipmunk or like a squirrel or an eagle and I like audibly greet them, you know? Oh, I do too. Yeah. Yeah. and it's that kind of relationship right you're just like oh my gosh these are my friends like it's so good to see you and like I mean it just genuinely is that it's just the way that it is and so so for myself like that's how I think of that's how I think of like like elk and fish just to be just to break it down to the two that I that I typically like harvest and so it's a really big deal I think that's why I weep when I take an animal that's why I weep when I take a fish you know I don't weep as much with fish anymore and that's like something that I've been like reflecting on which I find super interesting but it's like every time I take a fish is like there's a mo I say thank you and I pause and I make sure that it is calm right like I'm not I'm like I'll leave it in the net for a while and stuff like if I just brought the fish in I'm not just gonna grab it out and then like you know I usually will just I'll find like you know a flat surface usually a rock and then another rock like I don't carry around that I think they call it like a priest which is just yeah
Katie
do you know why? it's because it delivers the last rites
Jess
oh my gosh I was wondering. I'm like was raised Catholic I'm like a recovering Catholic as they say and so like the first time I heard that's what it was called I was like well this is interesting
Katie
yeah it's odd
Jess
it's very odd it's also just culturally very fascinating yeah so but anyways yeah so I just usually find like a rock and then another rock and then you know just you know the facing up as you'd see it naturally swimming in the river and you know hit it that way and obviously want to get it done in one fell swoop but yeah I feel like the same practices as hunters like we need to be like if that's how we hunt for big game I feel like it makes sense to extend that type of respect to to fish as well and because it's another life it's not it's not greater or lesser than maybe like if you're thinking in like terms of like meat like pounds and quantity and all that stuff like it could be easy and we quantify things as humans it's a part of what we do and or even like cognitive ability like
Katie
I feel like that's a big thing with people where it's like you know that elk might have more thoughts going on than a fish. And that's kind of like a hard one to reconcile. But at the end of the day, like that doesn't mean the fish wants to die any more than the elk does. They both want to live.
Jess
Yeah, it's another life. And I feel like as we know, like there needs to be a balance of every kind of like species and in order for everything to like continue the way that it has been, I guess that's like maybe a little more optimistic than I could be. But yeah, so I feel like I don't think it's, I don't think there's a, when it comes down to it, like I agree with you, I don't think there's a difference between, I don't think one life is greater than the other. So I think you should show that respect. So there's that side of it. But I also like really, my parents would probably kill me if I shared this, but I'm going to share it anyways. But we grew up struggling, and my parents were always super resourceful, and they'd always make ends meet. There was hardships and stuff, but they just were playful about stuff. They always made it. They always kind of just covered for us. So I know what it's like to need, as we all do in different capacities. I noticed that when I was, when I got into fishing, once again, my buddy who introduced me to fishing, he harvests fish. When he, when he harvests fish, he's very intentional. He primarily does catch and release, but he's also the one that like hunts too. So he's almost to the point where like, if we go fish together, it's like hard to get a picture of a fish. Cause he's like, no, no, I'm not bringing it out of the water, which I love, you know? Um, but, but so that's kind of, it's cool to see that balance go between both species and stuff. But, but back to the, harvesting part of, of fish and stuff, I feel like, and like knowing what it feels like to need and lack on resources. It's like, I would see, I would see posts of people on like Instagram and social media and stuff. This is when it actually came to me in the first place. I didn't even like recognize that this was something I was thinking about or processing or reflecting on was like, I would harvest fish. and that's what it was and then when I started like being a little bit more active on social media and you know got into I like solo fish for years before I started fishing with groups of people and stuff and it's really it's been amazing it's really I have a solid group of female anglers out here in Ohio that are like family at this point and I love it but I like sort of wasn't exposed to general the general culture around fly fishing and I didn't even really realize it until much later that catch and release like is such a big component of fly it can be a pretty big component fly fishing and when I started like noticing that I was like shit this is kind of messed up like I understand the need for catch release because our fisheries are struggling but when it's pushed non-stop when it feels like it's pushed like repeatedly and there's that pressure to do so some people fish because they need food and as humans we've that's how we have fished for for so long like all the indigenous peoples like across the globe if you're by water typically we're fishing right and so I don't like the pressure of catch and release that puts on people that have a need for harvesting the fish for the sake of like food and stuff and I know there's so many like there's so many arguments around that and to each their own I I love talking about this kind of stuff because I think it really is individual right it's like I harvest fish from time to time when I'm like oh my freezer is low or oh I'm gonna I have some friends coming to visit I would love to share food from this particular region right it's like there's that intention behind it I also I mean even though I say all this about harvesting I catch and release a lot because if my freezer's full and I don't have like friends in town or I don't have a dinner in mind you know it's like when I have I'm really intentional about it's not like every time I catch a bush or harvest it I more often than not release it but if it's a good size fish you know and I like I said you know I've got a need for it I definitely harvest it and I feel like it's important I actually even if I don't like quote unquote need a fish air quotes around need I still will I still will harvest a fish every so often because I feel like it connects me and grounds me to what the act of fly fishing is for for me in some ways and so yeah I just I the biggest thing for myself I just don't like the pressure that people give to people like I don't want people to feel bad if they need to harvest a fish like that bums me out you know and I've been that person before and I've been on I like had an opportunity to fish with some people and we we like caught over like 100 fish and like we didn't keep one and I was like oh my gosh like and I was struggling financially at the time right So I'm like, man, it would have been really nice to harvest some of these fish to sort of offset the money I had to spend to help, you know, for the trip itself. You know, so it's a mixed bag and it's different for everyone. And yeah, so.
Katie
Have you received like much pushback or commentary from people you know about harvesting fish? Because I feel like it's, you know, it's almost swinging toward more catch and release and more harvest at the same time. I feel like there's been a bigger, bigger push toward, you know, ethical fish handling and stuff. it it's like there's a difference between poor catch and release and harvest like I also disagree with treating the fish like crap and then throwing them back in the water to then die yes yeah yeah yeah if I'm gonna catch and release I want to like give it the best chance of surviving but I also will keep fish and it's like this weird dichotomy of like I either want the fish to do really really well when I put it back in or I want to kill it yes I don't want it to die like on its own 10 minutes later. And so there's kind of like a push toward good catch and release ethics. While also I feel like I've seen more and more of a push toward, hey, let's not give people crap about harvesting fish. Cause for a while it was like, you're the devil if you harvest. And now I feel like most people at least have kind of come around where as long as it's sustainable and legal, then, you know, no problem keeping a fish. But have you, have you personally like had any sort of pushback about keeping fish? Cause I know there are still some like diehard catch and release folks who don't agree with it
Jess
yeah I'd say I actually haven't had a whole lot of push back and I wonder if it's because I really do like there's so much intention around when I harvest something yeah I feel like there's typically a lot of dialogue going on it's not like a an assumption of some sort and to be honest I actually get a lot of flack from my friends because I do catch and release because a lot of my buddies hunt and they're like wait so you're not keeping these fish and I was like no no some of them I keep but some of them I put back and they're like I don't understand so I I actually it's kind of funny it's almost like the opposite but I will say there's this non-profit I'm sure you've heard of them but keep them wet I feel like they are doing a great job of that balance between the two right because it's like I had like saw some other stuff and I was kind of like unknowingly and unintentionally kind of like pre-judging right And I was like, interesting. I was like, I, I, I like agreed what they were saying, but I also was kind of like looking to see if they had, if they were putting a little bit of pressure about harvesting fish. Right. And I, it was so cool. They like, I think I listened in on a, they had some sort of like conference or something like, like virtual, conference. And I listened and, yes, they did such a good job of that balance between the two. They're like, they address the fact that like, Hey, so like, we're all about ethical catch and release and like safe handling of fish so that they have a high chance of survival. And, but they like sandwiched or like paired that really well with, but also if you decide to harvest fish and like you're saying, it's like legally and, you know, limit and all this stuff, like then yeah, absolutely. but they don't like push harvesting they push catch a release it does not seem like they judge at all about harvesting and so granted that's one group and they I thought they're really awesome but I also tend to not like interact too much with people that sort of have that it's hard when people think in black and white which we all kind of like default to do we default to in a lot of areas in our life but I don't think it's the best way to kind of go navigate a lot of these like more complicated or complex like scenarios or situations so yeah I feel pretty lucky that I typically am surrounded by people that yeah don't seem to be I don't really get a lot of pushback and like I said it's actually surprisingly the opposite so yeah yes sometimes
Katie
it's hard because like you catch a lot of fish. I mean I really I catch a lot of fish that are like three inches long and it's like well I'm not gonna keep that
Jess
yeah yeah definitely gonna toss those things back
Katie
right I need to start catching more big fish if I want to like really have to pick and choose which ones I'm keeping because for me it's like this is the only one I caught today that's worth keeping so yeah you know the rest are going back
Jess
yeah yeah which is great right that's and you know I also a lot of times too it's like with fishing like if I if I bring my knife and I bring you know like a cooler like something to put them on ice and stuff like I won't take the first fish I always let that first one go and then if I happen to catch another fish that's of like a good size you know and then then I'll take it but that helps with me to like stay to reduce that level of anxiousness of harvest and like sort of like that the greed part that can kind of come in which we all experience that from time to time of course and I actually just finished reading this incredible book that had been like suggested to me like for years and years and I finally got around to it braiding sweetgrass oh I just read that oh my gosh it's so beautiful so Robin Wall Kimmerer the author I was like listening to it and then she was talking about ethical harvest and I like didn't have the language for this right and I'm like hearing this like woman I listen to audiobook and she narrates it which is really cool I was listening to it and she's talking about this ethical harvest and I was like what the crap like this is exactly what I've been trying to put into practice and have been like making a solid effort to do and then turns out of course like indigenous wisdom like for ancestors and ancestors be like oh yes this is what we've been doing for so long and yeah she's yeah she's from like Anishinaabe area but I think she lives in New York but anyways yeah she was yeah she when she phrased when she wrote about that that whole chapter was just like I think yeah it just like definitely resonated in a way and I think I was driving to to New Mexico when I was listening to it and I'm like in my truck by myself like driving across like the states like not yelling but kind of like hooting and hollering like in my truck like oh my god this is so cool to hear this like it was so there was a level of almost like familiarity or this really deep sense of connection with what she was saying and just knowing that that's like it's like the people from this land have been doing for so long it yeah it just really tied a lot in and it made me pretty pretty pumped about the fact that that was like it was cool to have the language around it and then to realize that there's like so much history behind that and yeah so
Katie
that's cool that's another one of those things that I think it's hard to express to someone who doesn't I would say hunt but it's just basically like procure procure your own food in any way like whether it's gardening or hunting or fishing or whatever you do foraging just that that connection you feel with your food when you have gone out and like worked for it and it's like you know if you buy a steak at the store like are you really thinking about that cow when you eat it or if you buy the fish from the fish market like that that at one point was like a living breathing creature and you don't think about it it's just like a piece of meat on your plate but like you can't pull a piece of elk out of your freezer or a piece of trout out and not think about like the day you got it and like you know it brings up conversations and people and things and it's just like such a different experience to like have those memories like flooding back and and feeling that connection with what you're eating and what and what it was when it was still alive yeah that it's just like hard to express to people and it's something that really kind of actually angers me when I see people who are anti either anti-hunting or anti-harvesting fish or anti-fishing and and it's just like I don't know how to express to you like how much more meaningful this is to me than you know what you think it is which is just going out and killing something for the fun of it like this is so such a deeper connection that you will never understand and I can't it like upsets me that people are against that yeah that process yeah like I just can't fathom it
Jess
it's tricky actually when I had posted on Instagram that bull that I got I can't remember there was like a like a handful of people had like decided to like unfollow my page and stuff and I was like oh that's very curious you know and I didn't even like really think about it you know because it was such a such a like for lack of another word like spiritual experience to me it was very like I changed as a human after I like took that elk's life you know it's like it was a whole it was such a monumentous moment for me and to have these individuals think it was too much. And I was curious. I was like, wow, I wonder how many of these people eat meat, you know? And I actually was able to have a conversation. A friend of mine, she didn't like unfollow or something, but she just kind of started a conversation around it. And she was like, whoa, this is really hard for me to see. And the picture that I posted, there was no blood or anything. Like I was really like cautious because it didn't want to be like triggering for anyone and out of respect for the animal. Like he was the most handsome elk I've ever seen. And I, you know, didn't want him to be like, you know, his tongue wasn't hanging out, you know, like his tongue was in. He was, it was very tasteful. Right. And so, but anyways, her and I had a really cool conversation around that. And essentially what you're saying, it's like, she, she sort of shifted her perspective on hunting after the conversation we had, because I was, that was the first thing I asked her. I was like, but wait, you eat meat. Right. And I like, remember like when we were like in high school, we'd go to like, you know, Taco Bell or something together. you know so much she definitely eats meat and so we talked about it and it was just really yeah it was cool to have that dialogue but it's it is that you what's cool about what you were saying it's like if you're going to pull elk or trout or any kind of meat you've harvested out of your freezer and you think about the day that that happens that is like you're reflecting on relationship with yourself you're reflecting on a relationship with the piece of land that you're on you're you're deepening your relationship with the animal like there's just so yeah there's so much weight to it it's not just like here's a chunk of me I'm gonna gnaw on it's like yes like I had to carry this thing like down two thousand feet I'm still gonna gnaw on it but yeah but yeah
Katie
so tell me tell me about the writing you said you said you've been getting into some writing you just submitted your first magazine article oh yeah and I want to definitely touch on that before before we wrap up because that's that's that's awesome oh yeah kind of taking that next step
Jess
thanks thanks yeah I was pretty pumped on it. I’ve always liked writing but I always really have just I've done some like really small stuff like nothing published well stuff that's been published but it's more like for like clients of like previous clients of some stuff like just like word stuff but like wordsmith stuff but I had basically I'm trying to think about what that I feel like I really well when it comes to hunting and fishing that that hunt with the bull like I really took some time to like I took a lot of time to reflect on that whole experience and stuff and I just wrote it all out and everything and it was just a really good way for me to share the experience right and and yeah I had some people that I like read it read the story like out loud too it was just like I actually posted on my Instagram so you can read it there but it was just like a really short kind of like reflective like essay on that experience and I mean I had buddies who were like they're like you just made me cry and you know and I was like oh my gosh no no no and they're like no but in a good way and they're like that was they were like I felt like I was with you in that experience and that really moved me that they shared that and I love dialogue I love having deep conversations with people so part of the reason I was pumped to come and talk with you and hear your experiences and share mine because I think it's that sharing of experiences that really can be even going back to the people that like may eat meat and but aren't maybe aren't comfortable with hunting or even are anti-hunting right having that dialogue and giving somebody this space to share their experiences is obviously right and so yeah I like got really pumped on that idea so I wrote an essay on being a female in the industry fishing fly fishing specifically you know I brought him a little bit of hunting in there and then I work in construction so I'm like all and I like bird watching I'm like constantly in like predominantly male-dominated arenas, right? And ever since I was a kid, you know, so I'm like, I've been something I've been like working through for quite some time. But so I wanted to write an article to reach out to, you know, I have a lot of male friends that just don't even realize that they're kind of pulling some shit that you're like, hey, just so you know, you're making an assumption right now that I don't know what I'm doing. And there are times that I don't know what I'm doing as, as does everybody. We're always learning in all these different capacities. And I kind of felt like I was having this conversation all the time with my like male buddies and also like, not like complaining, but yeah, some complaining, some venting for sure with like a lot of my female buddies that are into, you know, hunting and fishing. And they were all like, yep, same, you know, it's like this constant resonating back to me being like, yeah, we deal with this a lot. And so I was like, you know what? Why not share this dialogue that I'm constantly having with close friends of mine and strangers and stuff about this topic of being a female in the industry and just this like general lack of, there's just like this fault in perspective a lot of times around women and whether you have a uterus or not, like female forward, you just kind of get this. kind of get like lumped. It's not uncommon to be lumped into the sun with like kids too, right? Like you'll see ads like learn how to fly fish and it'll be like a woman and a kid. And you'relike, wait a second. Like I, I understand.
Katie
Yeah. Like women and children. Yes. Yeah.
Jess
It's like that, like tales all this time. Right. And, this isn't the Titanic. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, and you know, that's a complex issue as we all know, but So anyways, that actually was the first article, essay that I submitted. It's called Let the People Fish. And just for the sake of confidentiality, it was accepted by a magazine. It's a fly fishing magazine, and it should be coming out. I'm not exactly sure which one it's coming out, but it should be out within the year, I guess.
Katie
Oh, it says you're offline. All right. We got cut off there and it sounds like we're having like a little bit of audio issues, but we'll just get wrapped up here. And apologies for if anyone sounds a little bit like blurry here for the next couple of minutes. But sorry, you were telling me about the piece that you just got accepted.
Jess
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, not exactly sure when it's going to be released. But yeah, they said they wanted it. And yeah, they were like, can't believe this is what happens on a regular basis. you know, like referring to like how often you can experience levels of just, I mean, let's just be real, just like frustration on a regular basis when people are like, oh, you can cast. And you're like, okay, first of all, you shouldn't be that surprised. It's not like I'm casting across the sandbox, you know, it's like I'm casting like, like 10 feet in front of me. It's like a roll cast, like not even exciting, you know, and when people get, when I say people I am in my brain be faulting to men in general typically typically white males unfortunately I'm not sure why and when and we know that's a whole complex issue and could really go down a rat hole there but unfortunately that has been my experience in lots of ways right and like I said I do construction so I'm in you know home improvement stores regularly and when I first during construction I was pretty like I was like no no it's okay like I've got it like if somebody was trying to offer help and stuff because it's just I'm also very short I'm only like five like three I think and so yeah it's like just a petite human being and I get it from my mother she's literally not even five feet so I understand the default to be like oh let me assist you and I appreciate that that's not a bad thing in and of itself but it's the constant sort of like oh you you don't have, you can't handle this. So like in construction and hunting and fishing, all those kinds of things. And yeah, I just wanted to share that common issue that really needs to be corrected within the fly fishing industry. And well, let's be real, most industries. And so yeah, I just really wanted to get that out there and have somebody, I wanted a male reader to be able to be introduced to this very real topic without having to feel uncomfortable having a conversation with someone around it. I wanted them to be able to read it, right? And kind of just a slight, you know, just planting a seed, you know? So I realized how, essentially, I realized how powerful writing can be. And of course, we know that because we have books and it's part of our language and all that. But but myself giving myself space to share my thoughts and ideas around things that I do feel to be yeah that I feel to be really important and could really like as a whole like if I see myself as just another species I also see myself as just another human no matter what your well no matter what your gender is if you're non-binary if like whatever like who cares about what your sexual orientation is like I don't know why everybody always like needs to know that you know it's like yes like I feel like and I mean that to say like people who get so hung up on the fact that someone's trans or that someone's gay it's like first of all like are you and are you interested in this person romantically then like sure you would want to know those things but if this is just like another human like in your community like you could kind of just like relax a bit you know like you don't need to get so yeah and so basically like essentially like back to the writing thing yeah I just wanted to be able to share share these thoughts and ideas that I know are not my own only they're shared with so many people and yeah I wanted a space for people to be able to yeah just plant that seed
Katie
I like that approach because I feel like you don't want to call someone out and have them feel uncomfortable or feel guilty or something especially when they didn't intend anything wrong but I feel like reading something like that gives people a a place to self-reflect without feeling like they're personally being called out you know they can think like oh you know I never thought about it that way maybe next time I interact with somebody I'll take that into consideration and it's like you know that could be all it takes to get someone to just like think a little bit before they say something that might come off in like a an unsavory way even when they didn't intend it to be that way but at least now they'll be aware of it when when they encounter that situation
Jess
yeah yeah because there's some instances where like yes it needs to be directed and then there's other instances where it's like yeah somebody that's even a part of what I put in the article is like a lot of times this is unintentional and a lot of times it is intentional and so we have to address both right you can't just like oh they didn't it. That's dismissive, right? And it's excusing someone's behavior. And it's okay. It's important to set boundaries. You know, it's okay to say like, hey, that's not cool.
Katie
But you can address it in a different way. Like, you know, there's a difference between the person who has bad intentions versus good intentions. Like, you're not there to like ruin the person with good intentions life over this thing they didn't even mean to do. You know?
Jess
Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's the thing. It's individual, right? It's like each instance. And so that, yeah. So yeah, that's why I wanted to write something and share that because it's, yeah, it's not my own experience. It's so many people's experiences. And yeah, so, yeah, so I'm pretty pumped. So that being said, I, I've already started working on a couple other writings more. I kind of want to expand on the essay that I wrote about my first elk experience. And yeah, I've got some ideas of where I want to send that and yeah, so I'm feeling pretty optimistic about it. I love storytelling. and I think it's fun to be able to like take it seriously you know and it's terrifying to submit that I was so scared and the first my first choice because I obviously had a list of places to submit it but my first my top choice they said they wanted it and I was pumped blown away I was like no way this is so exciting stuff so it was a really positive experience so yeah I'm excited
Katie
that's awesome I'm happy to hear that and let me know when it gets published because I'd love to give it a read yeah yeah reach out yeah cool well Jess we can we can get wrapped up here last thing I just want to have you plug wherever people can find you like if they if you want people to follow you on Instagram or if you have writing on any sort of blog or anything like that I don't know if you're just going for the magazines but basically anywhere people can find you if they want to come talk to you or shoot you a message or something like that
Jess
oh yeah yeah for sure. Yeah. So my yeah, Instagram would just be and I'm not on Facebook, really, I think my like posts automatically go to Facebook, but I don't ever go on it. So pretty much just Instagram and email. But Instagram, it's at Jess, Jess, no E. So it's literally J-U-S-T-N-O underscore E. And everybody always calls me Jesse. And I'm like, no, no, it's just Jess. So that's where that comes from. And, and then my email is just the same, Jess Gantos. Um, well, not the same. My first name is Jess Gantos at email. Great. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's it. So, oh, and then I do volunteer with, Project Healing Waters. I don't know if you've heard of them. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
I actually interviewed, someone from it, a long time ago. Um, but yeah, I am familiar with the organization.
Jess
Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just started, well, I volunteered with them for the last couple of years, but just, same position of assistant program lead for our, Cleveland chapter or Rocky river. And, anyways, yeah, they're, they're just a great organization and I'm like, I help with like social media on that sometimes and stuff. So that's just a project. So P H W F F is the general, Instagram handle if you ever wanted to reach out.
Katie
Perfect. Well, this was super fun. I love talking to, I, I was telling somebody else recently that, you know, when the fall comes around, I really shift my mindset toward hunting. So I was really excited to hear that you also hunt because I was like, oh, score. Like I'm going to, you know, get her on the show to talk about fishing. But secretly, I just want to talk about hunting because that's like where my brain is. I love that stuff.
Jess
Yeah, totally. I was very excited too. Because yeah, same thing. I followed you on Instagram and stuff and listened to your podcast. And I was like, oh yeah, fishing, obviously. Totally into that. Love doing that. And then, yeah, the hunting secret came out. And I was like, yes, I'm all in.
Katie
Well, I'll be keeping in touch with you over the years just to see how your hunting journey goes. And let me know if you want to get into bow hunting and need any tips. I'm more than happy to help answer any questions you have.
Jess
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was really nice to share some space with you and have some solid, fun dialogue. So thanks, Katie.
Katie
Absolutely. I'll let you know if I'm coming – well, we're coming back to Cleveland in December, but over the summer we usually make it back for a week or so in July. So if you're still around, I'd love to do a summer fishing trip with you and other Jess and any other people you know in the area.
Jess
Oh, yeah. Well, if you come around this summer, if you want to try to cut some lake runs, obviously. If you have time, I'm sure holidays are always tight. But if you've got time, yeah, you should come out with us.
Katie
If you have the gear, I won't bring any fishing gear home, but I might take you up on it if you have any extra gear.
Jess
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, reach out if you want to go out. We've got plenty of gear.
Katie
Okay, yeah, I might hit you up. That'd be great. Okay. All right, Jess, I will let you get going. But thank you for coming on. This was a lot of fun. all right guys thanks for listening don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes and also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app that'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone and also if you have not yet please consider going over to apple podcasts and leaving a rating or review that's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it other than that thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.