Ep 66: The Art of Preparing Fish, with Hank Shaw
Hank Shaw is a cook, author, and procurer of wild and whole foods. He has written several wild game cookbooks, including Buck, Buck, Moose; Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail; Duck, Duck, Goose; and his newest called Hook, Line, and Supper. In this episode, Hank walks me through the entire process of eating your catch, from care in the field, to gutting and filleting, and finally cooking. We end with a super simple recipe for pan-fried whole trout that even the most novice cook can tackle.
Website: Hunter, Angler, Gardener, Cook
Instagram: @huntgathercook
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 66 with Hank Shaw on the art of preparing fish. I would love to just get a brief history on how you got started in the outdoors. And then I'll probably follow that up with how you got into the culinary side of the outdoors. I'd love to hear that history.
Hank
Well, I mean, I didn't really get started in the outdoors. I mean, in a sense that like, it's just something I've always done. Being out of a house and doing things out of a house is something that I've been doing since I, before I could walk. So, my mom is, my mom's uncle was a, a fairly well-known naturalist in the thirties and forties in New England. And he taught her about the importance of kind of knowing the names of plants and animals and things. And mom just translated that to her kids. And so gathering wild plants and fishing and clamming and doing that sort of thing has been part of our family's DNA forever. And hunting came much later. So I went basically 30 years of my life without hunting at all. And then when I was living in Minnesota, I was a newspaper reporter and one of my colleagues, a guy named Chris Niskanen, he was the outdoor writer for the paper and I was an investigator reporter. And so we had fished together for quite some time. And then what had happened was it got to be fall and it was hunting season and he asked me to come along. And I'd kind of been thinking about it for a little while. And it was interesting to come out there and see what he saw, uh, in a landscape as a hunter, because I very quickly realized it's very similar to what I will see if I'm either a guide or a captain or out by myself in a boat where it's, you know, and, you know, an angler is not just a person with a, with a broad and real in his or her hand, but, um, but there's reading tides and reading, reading seasons and structure and all that sort of thing. There's a lot to it to, you know, put your bait in the right spot. And hunting is the very same way in the sense that I saw in him. The ability to like, we're going to walk this field. Well, why is this field like, well, cause there's going to be birds in it. Well, how do you know? And so it was just, it was, it lit a fire underneath me. So, as I dedicated my book, Pheasant Quail Cottontail to Chris, because he created a monster with that pheasant hunt. And I've been, I try to get outdoors as much as possible, but I actually am faced periodically with the dilemma of our own success because there's only two of us, it's me and Holly, and we can only eat so much. So I feel pretty terrible about going out there and killing things when I have things in the freezer still. So we've had a really good 2019 and 2020 so that we walked into this hunting season with a, not a full freezer, but not an empty one. And so I've been hunting a lot less this season and doing a lot more cooking.
Katie
Yeah, I hear that come up sometimes in the like trophy hunting quote unquote world. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean being a little bit more selective about the type of animals you want to shoot. And I'm almost always in the position of I don't care what I'm shooting, I'm shooting the first legal animal because I don't have a full freezer. But I can see myself maybe getting a little more selective someday if I actually have a full freezer and being able to say, "Okay, I mean, if I go out and don't shoot anything, that's not the end of the world because if I got one, I'd probably be giving it to friends anyway." I just so happen to very rarely be in that situation.
Hank
It will change very quickly. Um, I thought that it was going to be difficult. I mean, I'll put it all preface this by saying I have not bought meat or fish, but a handful of times since 2005. So it is, it is incredibly easy to fill a freezer with game and fish if you're any good at it. And, and, and I'll also, the other piece to that is, um, if you are interested in, in pursuing a variety of things. So I, I, when I started, I thought like, okay, this is like 2004. I'm like, I'm going to need this many pounds of venison, this many pounds of wild pig and some ducks and da da da da. And I like did it to like the, this is about how many I'm going to need to hunt. And very quickly within a year or so, I just blew right through that because it just, it wasn't that hard. I mean, it, it, where I live, it's not that hard to kill pig. It's not that hard to kill a 10 year or I mean, 10, 10 ducks or 20 ducks or 30 ducks in a year. Um, it is a little hard to kill a deer, but you can just drive someone to some other state and kill a deer, like, you know, one day, um, especially if you don't care what's on top of the deer's head. Um, so, and then Holly hunts. So what we ended up getting is, uh, is it, we'll go through the middle of the season and be like, stop only canvas backs, pintails and mallards and speckled belly geese. That's it.
Katie
What you're out of
Hank
well, no, there's, there's. It's so high quality that you always want to know that.
Katie
Oh, OK. I see.
Hank
So yeah, I've been doing a lot of cooking. And yeah, I've been giving quite a bit of game and fish to friends and people who need it.
Katie
Now, I know you mentioned you didn't get into hunting until much later, and you started clamming and things like that. Were you also fishing as a kid along with that clamming? Or did that kind of come in between?
Hank
No, I mean, there's pictures of me as a toddler with flounder and bluefish and stuff like that.
Katie
Now, were you hunting curious? Like, were you hoping to pick that up and just didn't have a mentor or a way in? Or was it something that you just didn't kind of feel the need to until you got later in life and maybe met somebody who did it? Or how did you- how'd that spark light in you?
Hank
It's hard to say because it's been 20 years. But I would say that it was- it's like I was sort of interested in it because I was living in Minnesota. to the University of Wisconsin. So both of those states are big in hunting. So I didn't know another hunter at all until I was 19. There was not a single hunter in my world until I was 19.
Katie
So it just hadn't really come up?
Hank
No, it just wasn't a thing. I wasn't a pro hunter or anti-hunter. It just never entered my mind. Uh, and until I went to Wisconsin for graduate school and then later I was in, in, and then even when I was in Virginia, like I knew people hunted in Virginia, I was there for a job, but you know, it's not like, eh, I don't need, I don't need to hunt, you know, I can fish all day. And it wasn't until I went to Minnesota where like, yeah, maybe I'll give it a go. And it wasn't like, I didn't have a burning need to do it. But what I ended up finding out is that But A, I'm pretty good at it. B, I really enjoy being out there and pursuing your own food. And I always had been with fish. And adding hunting to that mix felt like the third leg of a stool.
Katie
Yeah. I kind of think of foraging in that way for a lot of people. A lot of people pick up hunting and fishing, and that last leg is going out and gathering foods. Because that arguably could be the easiest one. There's nothing trying to escape you on the other side. But at the same time, it also almost feels more daunting because you can eat almost anything you can kill. But in the plant world, it's not as easy as just you find a plant and eat it. And so I think that one actually trips people up a lot more than you'd think.
Hank
People don't want to do homework. Like it's simple. It's as simple as that. I mean, it's not rocket science to learn plants and mushrooms. But it's, yeah, you got to have to, you have to care.
Katie
Yeah.
Hank
You have to care about, you know, reading books like mine or other people's are like, is what you do, this is what you look for, and this is, these are the things that if you see this, don't eat it. Right. And, you know, again, it's, it's not a hell of a lot different from remembering the stats of your favorite football player, but you just have to choose to want to care.
Katie
Yeah, just choosing your passion at that point and devoting time to it. Now, I have to ask, do you do any catch and release fishing or is fishing very much a means to procure food? Because you can't really do much catch and release hunting. You might like hunting, but if you've got a full freezer, that's it. You might have to stop. But fishing, you could keep fishing, even if you've got a full freezer. So do you ever choose to go out just for fun? Or is it solely a means to get food for you?
Hank
I typically practice fillet and release. [LAUGHTER] No, yeah. I mean, I have intentionally gone on a catch and release fishing trip exactly once. And that was to God's River in Manitoba, where the world's most giant brook trout live. And I kind of wanted to catch a giant brook trout. And I did. It was a seven and a half pound brook trout, which is a freaking mega brook trout. And I'm glad I did. And I understand why that fishery is catch and release. However, one of the caught and released brook trout certainly died. I should have been able to keep that fish.
Katie
Oh, like you legally weren't allowed to, but it took the hook deep or something like that?
Hank
Yes, exactly that. So like, okay, I still killed a fish and didn't get to eat it. So yay. But yeah, I don't catch and release for fun. I just don't. Fish, and in fact, on my own podcast, Hunt Gather Talk, we're available wherever podcasters. (both laughing) So my own podcast this season is all about fish and seafood. And I'm, in fact, tomorrow, I'm going to be interviewing one of the world's most foremost authorities on fish intelligence. And fish are a lot smarter than we think they are, and fish are a lot more sentient than we think they are. So sure, I'll kill them because I want to eat them, but that's just kind of like law of the jungle, I guess. But I'm not going to go out there and torture fish for no apparent reason.
Katie
Yeah, that's something that I've thought about a lot myself, because I do a decent bit of catch and release. have no problem keeping fish but I won't stop fishing when I've when I've got enough to eat like I'll I'll keep going out but it's something I've kind of wrestled with before the idea of it's just kind of messing with an animal for the fun of it which I would normally you know if someone said they were just going out and harassing wildlife I would say that's cruel and then it's like I do the same thing every weekend and I've never really been able to reconcile it apart from it's something I love to do and…
Hank
you know I'm gonna go down a busy street I'm I'm going to punch people in the mouth for no reason.
Katie
Right. Doesn't sound good. And it's something that I've never really heard a great argument for, apart from people like fishing. I think we've got more people to defend the fishing resources. At the same time, I wonder how much of that argument is actually valid and how much of it's just people trying to make themselves feel better.
Hank
It's a little of both. I mean, like that God's Lake, God's River fishery, that's a special fishery. But on the other hand, you have fishing mortality no matter what you do. No matter what. I don't care how good you are, it's going to be somewhere around 5% if you're perfect. And you can get up to 50% or 60% if you're, let's say you're catching and releasing trout on a hot day, for example. That mortality rate is unbelievable in that case. So it is dependent. And then there's certain fish like catfish. Catfish are super... They're like the big Lebowski of fish. They're so chill that unless they got hooked them, and there's blood coming out of there, even then, they'll probably heal because fish blood coagulates faster than any other animal's blood. It's hard to kill a catfish. Whereas other fish, like a shad, for example, are incredibly nervous. So they're like, "Blech!" and they die. And so there's a catch and release fishery for them, but I don't know how effective it is.
Katie
Yeah. It makes you wonder. I mean, I don't know how this could be done practically, but in those areas that are catch and release only, but you hooked a fish that you knew was not going to make it. It would be nice if there were some way to allow that. Say like, if the fish is not going to survive, you are allowed to keep it. But then you have people out there, oops, I snagged it. It's not going to live, and they're out there deliberately trying to get around that catch and release rule. So-
Hank
Exactly.
Katie
I don't-- yeah, I don't know if that's feasible. But I've been in the same boat as you where I'm in a place that I'm either trying to release the fish because they're a special fish or it's legally required and you see them and you're just like, "You know what? I fought you too long because something maybe got wrapped around a log or whatever." And you're just like, "This is a good contender for a fish to keep and I just can't do it, but I feel like I'm doing the wrong thing here by putting this fish back."
Hank
Right. I mean, it also happens in regular fishing too in the sense that a great example, I was not involved in this, but a friend of mine named RJ Waldron is a fishing guide. he had a client in the Delta here in California, uh, hook a, something on the order of a 50 pound striper. Now, I don't know if you know about striped bass or not, but I don't care where you are. 50 pound striped bass is gigantic, gigantic. Like I've never caught one and I fished where they're from in New England. And, and I've caught 40 pounders, but a 50 pound striped bass is a monster. Incredibly old, big breeding female. Well, it's so rare that the gear that this client had wasn't set up for it. You know, the biggest that we'll ever normally see is like 15 pounds. So he fought this thing and fought it and fought it and fought it and fought it and brought it to the boat. Cause for a while he didn't know what the hell it was, uh, brought it to the boat and the thing was so exhausted, no matter what they did, they couldn't revive it. And it died. And that was, that was a big, huge breeding female that really the fishery And it's sort of like casualty of war kind of thing.
Katie
Yeah, you can't control what takes your line at the end of the day. You can try to set up for a certain fish, but at the end of the day, it's up to the fish to decide if it wants to take what you're throwing. And some of this actually comes back to, like you said, educating yourself. I've seen this argument online where somebody new to the sport is doing something kind of egregious. And while I do understand that there's, if you're new to something, you probably shouldn't be completely torn apart online for making a mistake. But like you said earlier, part of it's taking the time to educate yourself. And it does surprise me sometimes when people will pick up fishing and don't bother to, you know, find out that they shouldn't be fishing when the water's 80 degrees. You know, it's just not a good thing to do. And I know that, you know, some people just haven't found that out and it's not an act of malice or anything like that. But I do feel like as more people pick up the sport, there needs to be kind of an emphasis on doing your homework a little bit and finding out, "Hey, it's not considered that ethical to fish for trout on a really hot day if you're not planning to go home with them." I don't really know where that line's drawn of, you know, encouraging people to educate themselves or expecting people to educate themselves, but I do feel like in everything, you know, when I start something new, I'm all over the internet scouring resources trying to learn more about it, and I'm sometimes surprised when other people don't automatically do that when they take up fishing for the first time.
Hank
I mean, we're hunting.
Katie
Yeah, we're hunting for sure.
Hank
One of the biggest things is with, I'm a big waterfowler, right? So step one, duck or not duck.
Katie
Right.
Hank
Dichotomous key here. Oh, look at these amazing ducks. Ah, they're cormorants. I got a snow goose. Nope, that was a swan. And you know, that's step one, duck or not duck. And that's important because you can lose your license if you you screw that up.
Katie
Yeah. Well, when you said duck or not duck, I thought I was thinking that would be a good title for one of your books because it sounds along the lines of it. But I actually have your book, Hook, Line, and Supper here, which is kind of why I wanted to have you on. I've had fish cookbooks in the past and I've had other books that touch on fish, but I feel like overall fish are kind of overlooked in the cooking world and especially the wild game world. People love to talk about how to cook a deer a million different ways, but fish are often like, "All right, bake it and it's done." So I've been enjoying looking through at some of the recipes that you've gotten here. So I kind of just had some cooking questions for you, as well as, I know you talk about buying fish as well as catching your own, so also just kind of some fish handling practices that I think everyone would benefit from. So maybe we can start there, since that's kind of where anyone's fish culinary journey would begin, is pulling a fish out of the water. Is there a standard way, and I'm going to focus mostly on freshwater fish because most of, I think, my listeners are freshwater anglers. Is there a standard way to really keep your fish as good as possible for the kitchen when you pull it out of the water? Or does it depend on species and maybe conditions of the day? How would you go about figuring out the best way to get your fish from the water to the kitchen?
Hank
My standard practice, no matter where I am, is whether I'm on shore or on a boat, is I've got a five gallon bucket, which if I don't have any fish, I can sit on it. Once you have a fish, you catch the fish, you decide that you're going to keep the fish, you either stick your finger in or take your knife and pop both gills and put that fish head first into a five gallon bucket full of water, whether it's saltwater or fresh, doesn't matter. matters for saltwater for, you know, the water you're fishing in. And that fish will bleed out. And so that takes boom, boom, you're done. And you can even do it in the middle of a flurry where, cause you know how it is. It's like, you know, like, oh, the fish are here. And then up, we've got an hour, we're not catching fish. So you, you know, fish comes over the rail, pop up into the five gallon bucket. And then, all right, you've got a moment to breathe. And here's where it kind of depends on the fish. So a typical freshwater fish, I'm going to just sit in a cooler in ice water, not on ice, in ice water. And I'm going to put him in flat. You know, in other words, I'm not going to let him twist or curl up. So he bleeds out and so when he's dead and limp, he goes into the ice slurry. And this is especially true in hot weather. So that's pretty much standard. And if it is a trout, and I've got time and I'm not kiting it, because if you kite a fish, you leave the belly intact, I'm going to actually gut the fish in the field.
Katie
Do you not gut the other fish?
Hank
Because I'm a dirty bait fisherman, I will use the guts to catch another fish.
Katie
I see. So why are you not gutting your other fish? Is there a downside to gutting it in the field?
Hank
It's just a pain in the ass.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Hank
I mean, the whitefish, like the standard whitefish that we catch in fresh water, they're much more mellow enzymatically than fish like bluefish or tuna or trout or tarpon or jacks. There's a certain set of fish that are way more energetic and oilier and have a digestive system that's way more ferocious. A great example is, you don't really catch these fish, but anchovies and sardines, their gut system works so hot and so fast, they will burn out their own bellies if you don't get them on ice immediately, and even then they still will. So you've got to clean those fish super rapid.
Katie
So there's not a downside to gutting your fish, it's just not absolutely necessary for a lot of the fish that people might be catching on a regular basis out of fresh water.
Hank
100%, yep.
Katie
I see. Are you also not- when I catch a fish, maybe it's just the part of me that's making up for the fact that I play with fish for fun. I like to kill them right away. Like, I like to give them a bonk on the head. It sounds like you bleed them out. Like, you cut the gills while they're still alive and let them bleed out? Or do you give them a bonk on the head before you do that?
Hank
We call that the wood shampoo. And we only give them the wood shampoo if it's a big fish that's going to jump all over the boat. But normally, I mean, we're talking fresh water. I mean, how many fish do you need that for maybe a big cat? Um, there are a few fish that you would need to, to pacify, uh, before you put it in, uh, before you bleed it, but not that many, I mean, it's, but yeah, I mean, we bonk lots and lots and lots of fish, uh, on the boat in, in saltwater. But keep in mind that, that hitting it on the head doesn't necessarily kill it as much as stun it. I mean, it depends on how hard you hit it, but, um, either way it's, it's hard. is going to continue to beat, whether it's dead or not, for a good few minutes afterwards and that will get that blood out of the fish.
Katie
So that's another one that you could do if you want to, but you just don't find it necessary?
Hank
Not with the little freshwater. Remember, I'm used to like, "Oh, here, we caught a fish. It's 25 pounds."
Katie
Right, I guess maybe I'm coming at it from the point of view of most of the fish I catch that I'm keeping are under 20 inches.
Hank
Right, so pop those gills, throw it in the bucket, and you're done with it.
Katie
Okay. an ice slurry instead of straight on ice?
Hank
Oh because it cools that fish down way faster.
Katie
Yep okay that makes total sense I can see that. And I assume if you didn't for some reason have an ice slurry it would be better to bury it in the ice than to just set it on top for the same reason?
Hank
Yes but if you don't have the ability to do an ice slurry that means you're not actually fishing because you fish in water.
Katie
So you would take water from the river lake and put it in the like clean water, like filtered water or anything from home?
Hank
Nah.
Katie
Okay. Nah. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense. I just, I guess when I usually have an ice slurry, it's because I've bought ice and some of it has melted. So I'm used to thinking of that water as being like cleaner than what I'm pulling the fish from. But it makes sense that the fish could handle the water it's coming out of.
Hank
Yeah, exactly.
Katie
And any difference between any of the species? I know you mentioned trout, but it sounds like you treat them all pretty much the same way.
Hank
I mean, in terms of, you know, field care?
Katie
Yeah.
Hank
When you're on the boat, I mean, freshwater fish are very, they're very different. This is, I mean, I, I'm also a little biased because I grew up in the ocean. So the diversity of forms, structures, tastes, flavors, and oil content is so dramatically different in salt than it is from fresh that a lot of my rules mostly pertain to saltwater because of that diversity. Freshwater fish, 95% of the fish are lean white fish. Uh, and really your only questions are, are they bony or not? And your exceptions are very few. I mean, trout. Trout are one of the very few fatty fish that live in fresh water. Trying to think of- and even the ones that aren't trout are still trout.
Katie
Like salmon and white fish and things like that.
Hank
Yeah, they're all trout.
Katie
OK. Now, actually, that brings me to my next question when you mentioned the boniness. And this is something I've been using your book for. Is the difference in filleting-- if you're gonna fillet your fish. I know they're all, they vary widely in terms of the techniques based on mostly the boniness and how many, you know, where the bones are and how many there are it seems like. Is there a good rule of thumb for grouping the fish in categories based on their bones? Like is it, is it like a family level distinction? Because I was actually, we caught some mountain white fish the other day and I was surprised by some bones I found and I looked in book and I was, you have a lot of different examples in there, but I was kind of like, I don't know which one to group this one with. And, you know, is there a way that someone catches a fish and it's not one of the ones specifically listed on how to filet in your book, is there a good way to know which fish to follow? Like, I guess just look for what it's most closely related to, or do they vary even down to the species at that point?
Hank
I would say you're talking, you go not 30,000 feet, but maybe 10,000 feet and you'll be okay. So like all the carpy things, whether it's a buffalo or a mooneye or actual carp, suckers, they all have one extra set of bones. Whitefish have an extra set of bones. Shad have two extra sets of bones.
Katie
Sorry to cut you off. This might be a good question for you, though. Are mountain whitefish built very similarly to lake whitefish that you might catch up in the Great Lakes area?
Hank
Yes, they are. They're cousins.
Katie
Okay. That's what I wasn't sure about because I frequently hear people talk about whitefish, yourself included, in your book, but I'm never sure if you're talking about the same whitefish I am and whether it's applicable.
Hank
It doesn't really matter. I mean, they're basically the same fish. Okay. I mean, there are differences, but I mean, it's between ciscos and chubs and mountain whitefish. The only one that's like, holy shit different is she fish, which you catch up in Northern Alaska. It's like a three to four foot whitefish. It's like, God damn.
Katie
I bet that pulls pretty hard on the line.
Hank
Yeah. Especially cause they get them through the ice.
Katie
Oh yeah. Yeah. I think I have, I think I've heard of this on a podcast recently actually about the she fish and I hadn't heard of it before, but I remember looking it up and thinking like, oh yeah, it looks like a big whitefish.
Hank
Yep. It did. In fact, it is a big whitefish.
Katie
Now, do you, I know when I think of difficult to fly fish, pike come to mind. Are there any fish that you would classify as like, maybe someone wants to go out and get started in keeping their own fish. Are there any recommendations of fish to avoid or to target based on kind of the ease for the user of their first time out trying to deal with a fish? Like I assume a pike is not the first fish that someone wants to deal with based on the Y bones and everything like that. But I want to hear your opinion on that.
Hank
Everybody knows the answer to it because it's what everybody fishes for. And your question is the reason why everybody fishes for them. Because most anglers are not terribly skilled knife work, despite what they might say. And so consequently, you're talking about walleye.
Katie
I was about to say, is it walleye that you're talking about?
Hank
It's walleye. You're talking trout. Walleye and trout are the two easiest things to fillet on the planet. Salmon are very, very easy because they have weak bones or regular structure. So our mind has this platonic ideal of what a fish should look like and how a fillet should that fish and it works with those fish. Um, bass are similar, but like, so that's another set because they've got a big old, they got a big old belly with strong ribs. So you either whack right through the ribs, which is what I do. Cause I don't care. Cause I just, I don't buy, I don't buy expensive fillet knives. Um, I just buy cheap fillet knives and keep sharpening them and then buy another one for $20. Um, it's a commercial fishing thing. It's like, I, I see all these ads for like, look at this lovely fillet knife. It's $117. I'm like, are you kidding me? Dexter Russell all the way. Uh, and no, they're not paying me to say that. So, but yeah, so you got walleye, you got trout, you've got, you know, spotted bass or small mouth bass. Those are all super easy to cut. Um, believe it or not, catfish are easy to cut. People forget that. Um, and you don't have to skin a catfish. There's sorry there. I said it like you don't have to skin a catfish. First of all, if you cook it with the skin on, there are certain dishes, mostly Asian dishes where the slightly gelatinous property of cooked catfish skin is a good thing. But on a regular, like a channel, like an 18, 25 inch channel, you can just whack that filet right off and then cut it just like a regular fish filet. You can't. It works.
Katie
I would not have guessed that.
Hank
It's I don't understand why people like you need special catfish pliers And you need to like nail the things head to a tree and then it has to be a full moon in October Not that hard guys.
Katie
I guess I just wouldn't against it because of their shape They're kind of you know Tube shaped almost instead of more of a flat fish that I think people think of when it's like full it like there's a side There's a left side and there's a right side you get a fully off both Whereas when you think of a catfish I almost think of like a top and a bottom more than a side and a side
Hank
And I think that's why I wouldn't have guessed that. But what happens is when you take that fillet off the bone structure, it flattens out.
Katie
Oh, okay. Yeah, it's like rounded around the bones instead of... Okay, that makes sense. I had a question about the bass that you mentioned where you kind of cut right through the ribs. Are you then pulling those out of the fillet before you cook it or are you cooking it with them in and just pulling them out as you eat? Is there a right or wrong way to go about eating around the bones?
Hank
There's no right or wrong way. It's whatever you want to. And in fact, a lot of time what I'll do is I'll just whack through the ribs, uh, just cause it's well, okay. So case in point, uh, there's a fish called a Pacific rockfish that I deal with quite a lot and a personal limit is 10. So if I'm helping somebody out on a boat where there's 20 anglers and that's 200 fish, we've got to get through 200 fish like, and, and I'm not messing around. I'm just, I'm whacking through. I just, I'm not giving you any detail work on that, on that kind of day. So it's like I'm done. And, and so in that case, what you do is, and you can then, you know, remove the side cause it's not yet a flake. Cause it still has bones in it, remove the side. And then you take your knife and just scoop underneath the ribs and just remove that whole bottom portion. So if you're doing it with your own fish at your house, there's no need to throw that away because that is a prime little tidbit for stock for fish stock. So that goes in the fish stock pot, which I normally make as I'm cleaning fish. Because I've got all of the carcasses and I've got all the heads and I've got those little rib bits. It's the perfect time to make stock and then you don't waste the fish. And if it's a giant fish, that rib portion is its own thing.
Katie
Like a rack of ribs?
Hank
Yes.
Katie
I'll have to get to that point in your book when I ever catch something that's big enough to have its own rack of ribs. I do want to come back to the fish stock. That's something I want to talk about. But just a quick tidbit on the fact that you mentioned that trout are one of the easy species to fillet. It's funny you mentioned that because trout are, when I catch a trout, I tend not to even attempt to fillet it. I just basically cook it and pull the skeleton right out and it comes out looking like a cartoon skeleton as long as you pull it with the grain. And it's made me wonder why people bother filleting trout at this point because it's basically the whole skeleton is just surrounded by fillet, essentially, and you can just slide skeleton right out and then just be left with a trout that you could just eat.
Hank
I mean, you're not wrong, but I mean, have you ever fished Pyramid Lake for 10, 20, 30 pound cutthroats?
Katie
I haven't, unfortunately. I'd like to. Fair enough. You might not be able to pull that one out so easily and be left with just one massive trout to eat, but...
Hank
Oh yeah. So I'll put, I'll go you one better on the opposite side. So I was up in the Canadian Rockies fishing for cutthroats and we actually got relatively skunked on that, but we went to an Alpine lake with little teeny brook trout. And we caught a bunch of these little teeny things, like, I don't know, like eight, nine, 10 inches. And it was for a TV show, so we needed something to cook. So I'm like, all right, we're doing it. So I actually filleted them, these little tiny things. We had little tidbits and bacon fat. It was good. And then I cut the heads off so that the skeletons would lay flat. And I packed him with a mixture of 50/50 salt and sugar. And I let that sit while we ate the other parts of the fish. Then I rinsed it off and then dusted it in flour and fried the crap out of it in the same bacon fat. It was so damn good because what happens is that the salt and the sugar and the hot oil softens all those bones. And so you could eat almost the entire skeleton.
Katie
Is that the recipe in your book called crispy fish skeletons or something like that? Is that the same?
Hank
It is in fact that recipe.
Katie
Okay, I do have a question. Actually, maybe we can just do that before we come back to the stock. I had a question on that. And it's basically, how do you know if your skeleton is small enough for that to work? 'Cause you mentioned the bass and I think you even said in the book, don't use like a big thick skeleton for this. But how do you know when you've hit the point that you're gonna bite into a bone and it's still gonna be, you know, bony?
Hank
When you know.
Katie
You just try it and know?
Hank
Well I mean first of all, if your fish is bigger than 12 inches, you're probably not going to want to do this. Okay. Unless it's a big mackerel or something. There's certain classes of fish with softer bones. Mackerel, sardines, snapper bluefish, trout for example. They all have really soft bones. But in general, you're not going to eat the whole skeleton anyway because you fried your thing and you're going to nibble from the outside in and your teeth will tell you when to stop.
Katie
Okay. So it's more of just a test the waters and you'll figure it out if it's not going to work out for you. Right. Okay. As for the fish stock, that's something I definitely want to touch on because I tried it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. We kept those white fish and we didn't make a ton of it because we didn't have a lot of fish. But I trusted that you said it wasn't going to be gross. My boyfriend was not so trusting. He was like, I'm going to prepare a second dinner in case this is awful. Because he just couldn't fathom the idea of fish stock. But we were pleasantly surprised that it was extremely mild. It basically tasted like a mild chicken stock, which is fantastic. But do you get a lot of people that are really, really on the fish stock thinking it's going to be like drinking liquid fish smell? I mean, I think that's basically what we were kind of picturing.
Hank
Well, you're not wrong because if you make a fish stock the way that you make a beef stock, it's going to be vile.
Katie
In like the cooking length basically? Is that what you mean?
Hank
Correct.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
Yeah. So a fish stock or a shellfish stock, whether it's crawdads or lobsters or crabs or shrimp, None of these things are going to take never more than an hour and usually some closer to a half an hour. And you don't make a ton of it in the sense that you can make a pretty decent venison stock or beef stock by just putting what you've got in a pot and then covering it. You can cover it three, four, five inches deep in water and you'll still have a decent stock. It won't be as good as it would be otherwise, but it'll still be good. You can't do that with fish stock because where you have with the land and birds and mammals is you've got time on your side. So you can, you get the reduction in volume and increasing in flavors. You don't want to do that because with fish, you're going to get that, that time increases your stink factor. And I did it just for the hell of it. I cooked a striped bass stock once for 90 minutes and it was vile. I just threw it out. And it was gross. So if you stick to like a half hour, 45 minutes, you're good.
Katie
Do you know why that is? What about fish does not work the same way as some of these land animals? I don't know if there's a time you can overdo venison stock or beef stock. You can maybe answer that. If you've got three days to just let it go and start with a lot of water, is there a point where it can't get any better or would get actually bad? Yeah.
Hank
Um, it, it's the same process that happens with fish much more rapidly. It's the, you start to get calcium extraction into the, into the broth, which is why that would, and people call it bone broth and they know what the hell they're talking about. That's what they want. They boil the crap out of this stuff. So they want that calcium extraction. It is scientifically arguable. And I believe it's, I don't know. All I know is that it is, it is debated whether that calcium is biologically available to you when you eat that bone broth. But a real bone broth is different from a stock in the sense that it's boiled, not simmered, and it's boiled for a long, long time. And so it's cloudy, it's almost milky looking, and it's chalky. To me, I mean, it's good only for health food, and it's questionable even at that. And so that will happen with fish within 90 minutes.
Katie
I see, okay, so that actually wasn't something I was gonna ask, but that answers a question I've kind of wondered, in that I've heard people, select people, talk about how bone broth is not good, it's just they're trying to get health benefits from it. But then I've heard other people refer to what I would consider like a normal stock as bone broth. Like there's some maybe like collagen, I think, congealing on the top, but it's tasty. Like you would, you'd throw a little bit of salt in there and you could sip on it as a drink, or like people eat drinks broth when they're sick.
Hank
I mean, that's the entire point of broth or stock is like, A, to add salt and B, to actually drink it.
Katie
Right. (both laughing) So I've wondered what that disconnect is and people are like, "Oh, bone broth is disgusting, "but I get through it." And I'm like, "Really?" Because when I make a pot of stock, which I've also heard people call bone broth, but it's obviously not correct. I'm like, "I pull a little espresso cup out of that every couple hours and just sip on it because it's good."
Hank
Yeah, exactly.
Katie
So that's interesting to hear. So it's basically the fish, it's going through the same process, it's just happening way faster.
Hank
Yes.
Katie
Okay. Moving on from the stock, we actually, well I guess not moving on from the stock, in a continuation of the stock, we made the salmon head soup that you had in there with those white fish and it was fantastic. I thought that was kind of a fun thing to try because of the substitution and I kind of like that focus in your books and in that things aren't made for certain species, they're are made for certain characteristics. And you can throw different things in as needed. So we did that salmon head stock with our whitefish, and it turned out great. And do you find that there's specific groups? Is it oily versus not oily that's the biggest divide? Or is it something else that causes fish to be grouped together, like maybe white flesh versus the darker pink flesh? Is there one divide that you would consider to be the grand divide between fish, Apart from fresh versus salt.
Hank
I think the grand divide is fatty versus not fat. But there's also-- I mean, in my book, I talk about whitefish, grayfish, and orangefish. And so the color is a difference. But color is also a marker for fat. There are no uber lean orangefish. Sure, pink salmon are a lot leaner than, say, kings. But they're still fattier than cod. And pretty much all of the gray fish are fatty as well. And I'm talking like tuna, bluefish, jacks, mackerel. There aren't any so-called gray freshwater fish. The closest would be like a gizzard shad, but nobody really eats those. So I think the biggest divide is that. And the second biggest divide would be texture. What's firm and what's not. Because there are some fish that are just not firm, what you do.
Katie
And by not firm, is that something that people would colloquially call mushy?
Hank
Indeed.
Katie
Okay. That's actually gonna be what I asked you next is like what fish do you associate as being mushy and how do you get around that? Is that just in the in the cooking techniques that you like mentioned in the book? It's kind of it's taking that into account when it you know. Oh yeah. Okay.
Hank
Yeah I mean bowfin, ocean perch, you know surf perch, the Pacific surf perch species, those are all incredibly mushy. Bowfin is any regular fish caught in hot water. So if you catch crappies or, or bass and you keep them in the water's hot, you know, like it's a farm pond in summer. I'm like, Oh, look at this huge crappie. It's awesome. And it's like July. Yeah. Just make fish cakes.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
Cause fish cakes cure a multitude of ills. Um, if you know your fish is going to be kind of, yeah, like wallpaper paste. Just make fish cakes anyway, it'll be fine.
Katie
Okay. Now, if you catch a mushy fish, do you have a different way of cleaning it? Because I feel like filleting at that point, it's not really necessary if you're not trying to get beautiful fillets. At that point, could you essentially just pull the meat and globs off the bones if you're just going to make fish cakes out of them? Or is there a proper way?
Hank
Well, there's no fish that's that fish, well, the bowfin is. Other than the bowfin, there's no fish that's that mushy. It's usually you determine it after it's cooked.
Katie
Oh see I feel like I've had fish where I would describe the pre-cooked meat as a little bit mushy or you could you could at least pull it off the bone if you tried like it wouldn't it wouldn't necessarily all stay in one piece
Hank
You must be catching fish in some hot water man.
Katie
No I mean like that even the whitefish we caught the other day I felt like you know they held together fine to cook but I was able to pretty easily scrape those bones of meat and it was coming off in kind of globs that we just kind of fried. It was tasty.
Hank
Oh, the spoon meat.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah.
Hank
Yeah, but I mean, that's not criminal in the sense that you still enjoy that whitefish.
Katie
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Hank
And so salmon are the same way and trout are the same way. What I'm talking about is like that crappie or that bass instance where it looks fine, you filet it off and it looks perfectly normal and you cook it and it's like wallpaper paste.
Katie
Okay, yeah. Maybe we just have different definitions of mushy here. And maybe I just haven't experienced the level of mush that you're talking about.
Hank
That's pretty epic mush. I mean, they're soft fish, you know, like, yeah, I mean, surf perches are really soft. All of the salmonids are soft. Like you could, like you with your fingers, you can completely screw up a trout or a salmon fillet if you're too rough with it.
Katie
Yeah. Okay. That is, that's mostly what I'm referring to because I guess a lot of the fish that I do keep are trout. So I'm often comparing a trout to a trout. And so sometimes I get trout that are beautiful, firm, flaky fillets. And then other times I feel like I'm eating a pile of fish. And I definitely wouldn't describe it as wallpaper paste, but it's basically a pile of fish sitting on my plate that I'm just kind of picking up pieces of it on my fork. And it's not a bite, it's a glob of fish. It's not undesirable. It's nothing that would deter people, I feel like for the most part, unless they were really expecting a flaky white walleye filet, and this is what they got instead. Have you noticed a difference between wild and stocked fish?
Hank
Oh, a hundred percent.
Katie
In what ways?
Hank
Stocked fish are gross.
Katie
I mean, like, is it texture and taste and color? Is it like, is it all the above?
Hank
Yes, all of those.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
All of the above. I mean, they're paler, they're softer, they're blander. Like if you catch a nice holdover rainbow, one that's been hanging out in the body of water that you're fishing for three years, that fish is going to be awesome. It's going to be bright orange. It's going to stay orange when you cook it. And it's going to be much firmer and it's going to have more actual flavor. And if the next fish you caught was a stocker, bleh.
Katie
So you mentioned that some of those orangey fish are often the oilier ones. Does that mean that the stalked fish are less oily or is there something else that's causing that lack of color? Because I've seen that in trout. I've seen caught trout that are kind of a dark pinkish orange and I've caught other trout that are almost translucent white. But is that an oil content? Or if it's in the same species, is that something else? Like they've got the same oil content, but there's something else contributing to that color?
Hank
It's oil content and it's diet. So a good example are the cutthroats of Pyramid Lake that we mentioned. They're fish eaters. So they're not as orange as a brook trout, when a brook trout virtually exclusively eats things, you know, bugs and little crustacean-y things. So they're the most orange of all of the native trout in terms of like their flesh color. So diet has a huge thing to do with it. And then the thing about the stockers is they're fed, they're effectively fed Berkeley power bait more or less. And so yeah, it's plenty oily, but it's mealy. It is reflected in the flesh of that fish.
Katie
OK. But a fish that's stocked and holds over can take on those attributes of a wild fish just through being in the water for a while and starting to switch to more of a real diet than those fish pellets.
Hank
They need to be a fish for a while.
Katie
Do you happen to know if there's a time limit? If it's a holdover for a year, is it going to be very similar to a wild fish by that point?
Hank
I think so, yeah. So I've seen a couple studies where They look at the retention rates. And I mean, in some of these bodies of water, it's rare fish that lives- that gets stocked and then lives for four years. But one winter holdover will do them right.
Katie
That's good to know. I don't know around here at least what percentage of stockers actually make it. I feel like it's often obvious when you catch a stocker. But you might not know exactly when it was stocked. And a lot of the fisheries are either- Like you know going in if you're catching mostly stocked fish or mostly wild fish. But I suppose at that point you just have to use kind of context clues to figure out if maybe you did catch a holdover in one of those stocked fisheries just based on does it look like trash when you pull it out of the hole.
Hank
Or if it's like one of those weird ass triploid, mongoloid, you know like rawr, you know like with a big crazy hump on it like oh god it's like what did they do to that trout?
Katie
Yeah it looked like they took like a trash compactor to both ends and just like compressed it.
Hank
Triploids they are called, yeah.
Katie
I don't actually know if we have, I mean, I don't know what Colorado's triploid program is like if they've got one at all. I've heard about it in some other states, but I'm not aware of it happening near me at least. I haven't caught any fish that looks that deformed. At least. I've just seen pictures of them. I've never caught one. Well, just to kind of get wrapping up here, are there, I just kind of wanted an overview, are there any misconceptions or mistakes that people make overview to leave people with. If you had to know like three or four things of just don't buy into the hype on this or don't feel discouraged because of this like do you have any words of wisdom to kind of make people feel more comfortable keeping their fish and preparing them to something delicious?
Hank
Yeah I mean ice is your friend it's number one. You know so you're the quality of whatever fish that you catch is going to be better if it's iced on boat or on the shore. Um, that's period end of story, full stop. Um, in the kitchen, keep in mind that, um, the, the key to not having fish stick, which is a big thing that, that people come up against is. The fish needs to be as dry as possible. It's not possible to dry fish too much, you know, so your fish needs to be dry. your cooking surface needs to be ragingly hot. This is another thing that home cooks are often fearful at high heat cooking. And this is a bad thing if you're going to cook, say trout with the skin on, or even a trout with the skin off. So the pan needs to be hot, and then the oil has to be hot, or your grill grates have to be clean. So a hot grill grate and a piece of fish is a beautiful thing, until and unless it has gook on it. And then that's going to, that's going to adhere that fish to the grill grates. So your grates need to be super clean. It helps to oil them. It absolutely helps to oil the fish if you're grilling it.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
And so if you're going to pan sear something, the pan has to be ripping hot. You have to put a very high smoke point oil in like canola or safflower or grapeseed or rice bran, um, and get that hot. get that almost to smoking, which is super, super hot. It's like 400 plus degrees. And then you put your piece of fish down into this raging hot pan with raging hot oil. And the second it hits, jiggle the pan. Fish goes down. And so you'll see that fish slide on the oil. Now you can put your next piece of fish down. And so like you fill the pan, they can't touch 'cause otherwise they're gonna steam themselves. And then, all right, you're good. You're, you're, they're there turn the heat down. So it sounds like it's cooking bacon. I like to call it a jocular sizzle. And, and then just now, if it's on the grill, it should also sound like, you know, a nice sizzle. Go have a beer, like leave it alone. Like, don't keep picking at it. So in both cases, you either want to flip the fish once or never. So if it's a thin filet, you want to take, you want to tip that pan and, and use a spoon to baste raging hot oil over the top of the fish. And once it turns opaque and the bottom of that piece of fish is gets nice and crispy, which you'll see you're done. And then of course you let it rest for a couple of minutes, crispy side up. So the, how do you know when you're done? Well, first you're going to see around the edge of the fish, it's going to turn caramelized and pretty. Second, you're going to jiggle the pan again. If they move, you're done. And third thing is if it wants to move, but there's one stuck spot, that's when you use your spatula to dig underneath it. You have to have the courage of your convictions. Otherwise, you're going to leave that piece of fish skin in the pan. And then you go, snap, and a twig. And then you'll flip it over, and you jiggle the pan again, because that side hasn't been cooked. and you repeat it and then you're good. Like that's the Zen of fish cookery. You don't pick at it, don't be afraid of high heat. And if you're going to flip the fish, flip it only once. And I mean, you've seen the pictures, like it's not hard. You know, I mean, you just have to do it. Okay, maybe it is hard, but I mean, like the joke is that the first thousand are hard, but you get, it's just like cooking a duck breast. I mean, once you do it enough, you can do it in your sleep. You can do it on a campfire. You can do it anywhere because you get, you pick up these cues of what does it look like? What does the sizzle sound like? Is the fish arcing up? Like a big thing that happens is let's say you had a bass filet with the skin on it or walleye fillet with the skin on it or any fish with the skin on it. And you put it in that hot pan, it's gonna arc. So a really good idea is to either get a bacon press or another pan or something, and just put it on that piece of fish to flatten that sucker out. And it doesn't need to be on the whole time, maybe 60 seconds. And then it will relax and be good to go. So there's these little tricks and tips that really will up your game.
Katie
Yeah, I think this is definitely something that I've done because I've just been worried about either burning it or overcooking it to the point of it being- even know what I'm scared of I guess leathery is that what happens if you go too far?
Hank
I mean you have to really kick the crap out of it to get leathery fish
Katie
overcooked fish is just like a kind of a big fear of mine it like it I feel like a lot of the venison cuts I put down on the pan are not are so thick that I'm not that concerned about overdoing it because I'm like the middle is gonna be medium-rare at the most by the time I'm done with it. But I feel like fish, just because there's not that very obvious red to brown, it's still all kind of that whitish, or if it's a pink fish, it's still kind of the same color when it's done. It might go from a little bit more translucent to a little bit more opaque, but we're still talking white to white. I'm always just a little bit more fearful. I don't want to have it be raw in the middle for freshwater fish, and I don't want it to be overcooked either. And I guess I've just been scared of not knowing when is that sweet spot because there's not those indicators like there are for like red meat.
Hank
There are, they're just different indicators.
Katie
Okay, maybe I'm just not sure what to look for.
Hank
So the caramelization on the underneath is one. So give me a good for instance, like what is the most common way that you're going to come home and cook a piece of fish and I'll walk you through it.
Katie
Oh, well, I guess normally I'm cooking trout whole. I would just, I mean, various ways, but like I’ll…
Hank
Like pan-sized trout whole.
Katie
Yeah.
Hank
So you got your trout, they're gutted, they have no gills. Do they have their heads on?
Katie
Yes or no.
Hank
Keep the heads on. If you can, keep the heads on because if you take the head off, that biggest, thickest portion of that fillet, which is the shoulders, is going to get exposed to too much heat and it'll be overcooked. I mean, obviously, if you've got to cut the head off to fit in the pan, then fine. But if you can, keep the heads on. So clean the fish, no gills, pat them dry. I don't really scale trout like that, uh, because it's scales are so small. Who cares? Um, so pat them dry, get your pan hot, oil, your trout and oil, your trout pans. Pretty hot. Put, I don't know, two, three tablespoons of that high smoke point oil and swirl it around, it's going to shimmer immediately and then give them, you know, 30 seconds or so to get hot and put it, put a trout down, jiggle, jiggle. All right. He's moving. put another one down, put another one down. You probably get three, maybe two, depending on the size. And then make sure that they're all kind of slicked up and good, and you've salted them beforehand. That's another piece I forgot. Salt them beforehand, then pat them dry right before they go in the pan. And so, all right, they're sizzling, turn the heat down to like medium, medium high, so they sound like bacon. And then just sit there and look at them for a couple of minutes. And then you're gonna wanna think about tipping that pan And just spooning oil over all the fish on the other side. And you do this not because you're not gonna flip it, but because it kind of gets it along a little bit. And it tightens that skin and it makes it less sticky when you flip it. So you look at the bottoms of all of those trout that you've got in the pan and like, oh, they look kind of nice and pretty and browned and delicious. Try to flip them. And if you don't have a fish spatula, buy one. You need a fish spatula. The reason why is because they're very, very, very thin. They have a kind of a blade on the front of them and they're incredibly flexible. And so you stick your fish spatula under trout one. Does it come up easy? Yes, flip it and repeat as necessary. Does it, is it stuck in the pan? Turn the heat down a little bit and just keep it going. It will release. You have to be patient.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
And then ultimately it will release enough, least three quarters to eight tenths of the way. Then you can use that blade on the front of the fish spatula to kind of like dig that one or two spots where it's sticking and then flip it. It's going to look great. You're going to be amazed. Then just repeat the same thing on the other side.
Katie
Okay. Then would you still let that rest afterward?
Hank
I would. I mean, it's not like a steak where you need to wait like 10 minutes, but a couple of two, three minutes.
Katie
And then just for your preference, if you have a trout like this, are you just basically picking away at it with a fork until you've got a bare skeleton left over?
Hank
Yeah, typically, yeah. Unless I've got fancy people.
Katie
Right. And then that skeleton from a pan-sized trout, is that a good material for fried fish skeletons?
Hank
Indeed, it is.
Katie
So at that point, you can be eating basically the whole thing except the skull, I would assume is the last bit.
Hank
I don't use those skulls because they mess up the frying of the skeleton.
Katie
Okay.
Hank
I guess if you deep fried it, it would work.
Katie
Okay, so you don't have really any use for that, that's going in the garden buried or something like that?
Hank
Yeah, or stock or something like that.
Katie
Okay, great, well I think I've mostly covered everything I need, it sounds like I'm qualified now to go catch my trout and cook 'em a lot better. Do you just wanna plug where people can find you? I know you have your new book out, you mentioned it a couple times, but just go ahead and plug it again, your website, wherever people can find you.
Hank
So the core of what I do is my website, and that is Hunter Angler Gardener Cook. The easiest way to get to it is huntgathercook.com. And that is also kind of my handle on Facebook and Instagram. I'm very active on Instagram @huntgathercook. And I've got five cookbooks and they're available wherever fine books are sold. You can buy them directly from me. And if you do buy them directly from me on my website, they will be signed. So that's kind of cool. But I can't beat Amazon for shipping 'cause nobody can. And so if you want it fast, get it on Amazon or wherever else you care to get books. But really probably the best way to get in touch with me and to interact is Instagram. I run a Facebook group called Hunt, Gather, Cook. And it's a private group with 24,000 members in it. I vet everybody who comes in. You have to answer questions to get in. If you don't answer questions, you don't get in. Tell me that you heard me on this podcast and I'll let you in. It's a great forum. It's got everything from Prius driving vegan earth mothers to MAGA hat wearing dually guys. We keep the peace because there are no politics involved. I police it very sternly and it's all about the food. And so it's a place where it's basically the Borg for wild food. Resistance is futile.
Katie
Well, I feel like food has probably been bringing people together for a lot longer than Facebook, but it sounds like it might be the last stronghold of friendly interactions on Facebook too.
Hank
We really try.
Katie
All right. Well, thank you so much, Hank. I appreciate you taking the time for this and just all your tips. I feel like it's such a daunting world for so many people and I think you make it accessible to the average angler to make people feel a little bit more confident in preparing what they've caught. So I appreciate it.
Hank
I appreciate you having me on.
Katie
All right guys, thanks for listening. Don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.