Ep 58: Building Your Own Fly Rod, with Jon Hill
Jon Hill is a writer, angler, and rodbuilder. He started his own custom fly rod company, Yellowfin Rods, after falling in love with the craft as a hobby. Jon was the person who first introduced me to the world of building fly rods, and helped me through the process of building my first one. In this episode, we cover how he got into rodbuilding, what goes into building a fly rod, the necessary materials, and what someone can expect when they get started.
Instagram: @yellowfinrods
Website: www.yellowfinrods.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 58 with Jon Hill on building your own fly rod. I think a good place to start would be maybe just how you got introduced to building rods, and then maybe also how Yellowfin got started. Just tell me about it. How'd you get into rod building?
Jon
Well, I started, you know, fly fishing like 18 years ago when I moved out here to Colorado. And most people start fly fishing. Then they're like, hmm, I wonder how to make these flies that are kind of expensive. I wonder if I could save some money. So I started tying flies. Over the years, you realize that tying flies doesn't really save you money, but it's a ton of fun catching a fish on, you know, something that you tied yourself. And then about six, seven years ago, it just hit me like, I wonder how to make a fly rod and how to do that. I wonder if I can do that. So I went down the YouTube rabbit hole and spent hours and hours researching and watching videos. Like there's a video series that's like 10 parts long. I think I watched it like three times all the way through trying to figure out like how to make a fly rod.
Katie
Is that the one you ended up sending me?
Jon
I think so. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's super old. It's like, you know, four by five. It's like low res and yeah, yeah. But that was the one I watched like two or three times before I even started.
Katie
So when you first like decided to pick it up, did you know that people built rods or were you like, do people build rods? Like, how much of it did you know going in?
Jon
So, you know, bamboo. Everybody has heard of people making bamboo. So I always thought I wanted to make bamboo. And I thought, not until I retire. I don't have time, you know, to make bamboo rods.
Katie
Which is, I feel like, a fair assessment.
Jon
It's a lot of work. But then I was like, well, wait a minute. How do these other rods get built? You know, the carbon fiber, graphite ones, the fiberglass. And so that's when I thought, I need to look this up and see how those are made. Because I had no idea, you know.
Katie
And so what was the process, like, going from your first rod? Like, I guess, how did that turn out? And then how did that evolve into Yellowfin now?
Jon
So I started looking up blanks because it all starts with a blank, right? Which is a tapered rod, just the tube, right? And it's in two pieces, four pieces. So you have to buy the blanks first. So I researched the blanks and where blanks come from and who gets blanks. And there's only a handful of places that actually make these blanks outside of the U.S. you know, and in the U S. Um, so I figured out how to get blank. I ordered some blanks. And the first one I made was actually for a friend of mine. Uh, I think it was birthday was coming up and I'm like, Oh, it'd be neat. My first rod to give to a good friend of mine that I've known since I was like 13 years old. Um, so I got the components and parts and I, I made it and gave it to him.
Katie
Um, then it was so much fun. And did it go well? Like looking back, if you can remember it, do you think it was a good rod or do you think it was, you know, I mean, a bad rod is still fishable. It's not like you can catch fish on it, I'm sure. But like looking back, do you know, like things you messed up that you've since fixed or do you think it was a pretty solid first?
Jon
For my first one, I think it was very good. I had posted it on a couple of forums like rod building forums and people were kind of shocked that it was my first one. So, I mean, I've definitely gotten better with building them, you know, seven years later. But for my first one, I think it was really good. So I gave it to my buddy and he just loves fishing it, you know? So that was like my first, first one.
Katie
And then you build, I assume you built like a whole bunch after that, just for fun before you started thinking about selling them.
Jon
So then I built one for myself and I built one for another friend of mine and gave it to him as a gift. And I started posting it on Reddit, the fly fishing forum on Reddit just because people share their fish photos. They'll share their flies they tie. So I started posting my builds on there. And then like one person was like, hey, can you build me one? And then a couple of weeks later, another person was like, oh, these are awesome. Can you build me one?
Katie
So it was more like by request almost versus thinking like I should start a business.
Jon
It was definitely not a business. It was something that I loved right from the beginning. I loved doing it, loved it. So it was definitely, I'm so surprised that it kind of kept going because it was all word of mouth. It was, you know, people from Reddit and then telling their friends and then I would post more pictures on Reddit and then somebody else would ask for another one. So it was, you know, yeah, it was just kind of organic.
Katie
Just like a snowball effect.
Jon
Yeah.
Katie
And what, at what point did you like say, I should give this business a name and a structure, a website and all this versus just randomly taking orders from people.
Jon
So a couple of years in, I thought of a business, but I couldn't think of a name for the business. So I just kept going with whatever I was doing. And then I've always been interested in like rare fish. And we can get on this topic another time, but golden trout, you know, is a big thing for me, the golden trout and finding golden trout in Colorado. Then I was doing research for the golden trout. Back in the day, I found another trout that was partially extinct, the greenback cutthroat trout, which is Colorado state fish. And along with that, I found a yellowfin cutthroat trout that used to live only in Colorado and is now thought to be extinct. And yellowfin maybe with a little luck maybe I have some info and I need to take a trip and maybe I'll find it someday but then so I thought yellowfin I was like yellowfin custom fly rods and that's how I got the name and started like quote unquote business
Katie
yeah I kind of I kind of remember this happening I feel like we knew each other for a little bit before this happened but I remember you sending over the logo and stuff and being like check out my website
Jon
yeah so it was just kind of it just hit me one day and the yellowfin I you know again is such a cool story behind that and like they tried to save it and whatever again we can get into that you know another time but yeah so I was like oh that's a neat name I like that and it's in Colorado that fish was from only in Colorado I'm building rods here in Colorado so yeah so that's how it started with the website and everything.
Katie
Now, don't you, I forget, your rods are named after different species, right?
Jon
That's another thing you have to think of. You know, what do you call them.
Katie
You got to have like a list of products. It's no longer just ask me what you want and I'll build it for you. It's like you got to offer selection.
Jon
Yeah, so before I actually went live with the company, I was like, okay, I need to have a bunch of different product for people to choose from. You know, they need to choose blanks. They need to choose real seats, grips, thread, color for the guide wraps, you know, all of that. So what I did was, you know, fly rides have different actions. So I bought a ton of batches, small. They're made in like small batches from South Korea, New Zealand. There's some I get from Bulgaria. So I buy in bulk and I have, I don't know, how many do I have on my website? I don't even know at this point. I think I have like six or eight.
Katie
As I say, I feel like maybe half a dozen is what I was thinking. Yeah.
Jon
So I have different actions, different colors of blanks that people can choose from and then a bunch of different real seats to choose from. So I wanted to give people a variety for everybody because some people like fast action rods. Some people like slow action. Some people like medium fast.
Katie
So is that what the different rods that you sell with different names, that's basically just what action or taper.
Jon
Exactly.
Katie
And then people are choosing colors of things and real seats and stuff like that that go on to the rod. But it's not like all of the rod A. They're not all exactly the same. They're just all the same like action and taper.
Jon
So they're the same color. The blanks are all the same color. The blanks in that. So then I thought, well, why do I name these? So I came up with, well, I'll name them different trout. So I have the rainbow edition, the cutthroat.
Katie
You have a whitefish?
Jon
A whitefish, yes, named after you and your love for the whitefish.
Katie
I'll have to buy one of those for you.
Jon
Yeah, exactly. I have another one called the PA, named after Pennsylvania, because it's a blank that I use a lot for euronymphing. And there are some guys in Pennsylvania on the fly fishing subreddit that I've made a bunch of eurorods for, And they use them for, you know, your own fishing in Pennsylvania. So I kind of named it after them for the PA. So that's how I just kind of came up with my different, you know, editions of the blanks. And so each edition is like a medium fast and, you know, green. And then I have like a 7'6", 3 weight, you know, 9'4", 9'5", 9'6", in that edition. Okay. So everybody can choose, you know, from that.
Katie
Are you still coming up with more or have you kind of been set on the same handful for a while?
Jon
No, I test out. I test out different blanks that I see that come up on the market from different areas. Last year, I got a set of blanks that were new. I've sent a couple out to people. And I actually just got word back from a friend of mine that lives on like the Western Slope area that he was like dumbfounded how good it cast. Like he said, it casts just as good, if not better, than his 9'4 weight rod that costs $900.
Katie
So that was actually going to be something I asked you because this is something that I'm not really sure about. I feel like maybe it's a mix. But with a good rod, I feel like there's brands that come to mind for what's a good rod or what's good for the money or whatever. Is that more in the blanks themselves in the craftsmanship or is it a little bit of both? I mean, obviously, some of the craftsmanship is just aesthetic. You know, it looks nice. The thread wraps look nice. I assume a thread wrap doesn't actually improve the casting.
Jon
Well, sometimes it can improve. Well, if you tie, if you wrap too tight, that could put too much tension on the blank and actually could break.
Katie
Oh, really? Okay.
Jon
And if you tie it too loose, then when you put the epoxy on, it might not stick to the blank. So there is kind of like an area there that it needs to be. But no, you're right.
Katie
Is it more in the blanks or more in the craftsmanship? Could a great craftsman take a bad blank and make it an amazing rod? Or is there a natural limitation there because of the quality of the blanks themselves?
Jon
I think both. I think the quality of the blank, just like there's Cabela's $50 starter kit.
Katie
Right.
Jon
Or Orvis has a starter kit that's like $120 or whatever.
Katie
So yeah, I guess you would assume that a company is not just deliberately making those ones in a worse way. They're not being like, okay, so make sure you don't try as hard on these cheaper rods. Obviously, that's going to be a lot of the components that go into that.
Jon
Right. And the make of the graphite carbon fiber that's in the blank might be slightly different. So there's, like I said, a $100 starter kit, and then there's a $900 rod. So there's definitely blanks from one end of the spectrum to the other. So you can get a custom rod for $300 or you can get a custom rod for $1,000.
Katie
Okay. So just a little bit of both.
Jon
You know what I mean? So the ones that I make, they're in the medium range there, $300, $350. They're really for people that don't ever think they would ever have a custom rod and be able to choose colors, choose things for themselves.
Katie
Because you hear custom and you're like, it's got to be like $2,000 to get a custom rod because regular rods can go for a thousand bucks.
Jon
Right. So I wanted to fill the area where the average Joe, me, I'm an average guy, just weekend warrior most of the time, but would love a rod that I chose everything for and like handmade. So that's kind of the area that I like to be in because it's a joy to like talk to people either on the phone or through email. You know, I've had emails back and forth. There's like a chain of like over a hundred, you know, going like what to choose and like then they'll get it and email me back with pictures. So it's really cool to like get to know these people that I'm building a rod for. And I every single one of them is like a piece of art to me. like I spend a lot of time and energy on them and I love every single one of them. And every time I'm done, I don't want to send it out half the time. Cause it's like, yeah, this looks so nice, you know? But the fact that I get to do this and give it to somebody who gets to go out and it's passionate about fly fishing, like I am like you are, you know what I mean? Like just for how it's rewarding. It's great. I love it.
Katie
I love it. Have you gotten any in particular, really cool stories back about like, Oh, I was using a rod and I caught this, you know, like 30 inch wild brown. And you're like, it's just some like crazy story like that where you're like, oh, that's my rod.
Jon
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times it's like I had a wife got her husband one for Christmas and she emailed me just a few months ago. And I think they live in the east, northeast somewhere. And he was using it and caught some like cod and then made fish tacos. So sent me a picture of the fish. I'm like, it looks so good, you know? So just like stuff like that. And of course the ones with, with the fish that people are catching with them or, you know, a guy just emailed me the other day. It was like, I've caught, you know, I made one for him like three years ago and he's like, I outfish all my friends. This is the best rot, you know? So you love hearing those, you know? Of course you get the ones where, you know, they break the tip off in the car door, you know, I hate to get those emails, but I take those emails too. And I have to like, you know, replace parts and stuff for, you know, a fee to replace, you know, the blank and everything. But, but it's so much fun being able to like talk to people about, you know, how they use and it's all over the country.
Katie
Right. It's like kind of living vicariously through them. Right.
Jon
I've always thought how cool would it be to make like a little fly fishing movie of me traveling around the States and fishing with people that I've made rods for and all these different, you know, from Washington to California, Texas, you know, Vermont, Florida. I mean, all over the place. So it's super cool to like hear back from people.
Katie
Yeah. It makes you wonder like how many species have been caught on your rod or something like that. Yeah. Some like random statistic that you'll probably never know. But, you know, it's probably someone's probably caught some really obscure species that, you know, be fun to learn about. Yeah.
Jon
Yeah. We kind of got sidetracked. But back to the new rod that I test out. Yeah. So, yeah, there's definitely different makes of the ingredients that go into the carbon fiber, graphite or fiberglass. because there's, you know, S glass, E glass, they make them differently, you know. So I'm always, you know, finding new blanks out there and I'll order like five or 10 and make a few and give them to people to test out, you know, and, you know, get feedback from to see if I should put it, you know, in my quote unquote lineup on my website. And I probably should with this new one, but I just, I've been so busy that I haven't even been able to update my website with these new blanks that I have. Like, you know, last year, and like I said, I do this part-time. Last year for COVID, so the year before COVID, I made 42 rods, which is, you know, it's a lot, you know, for part-time, you know, and I have wife and my son and I coach soccer and stuff. Got a lot going on. Last year for COVID, I made 95 rods last year. It was insane how many orders I got last year, 95. So it's been pretty crazy. It's been a blast.
Katie
Yeah, so kind of getting into the building itself, I had a guy on a while back talk about bamboo and kind of the misconceptions I had about rod building before. I've only built the one, but now I feel like I at least kind of understand what the process is. And I didn't really understand what went into building a rod because it's a weird phrasing, you know, like building a rod, like what you create in these blanks or whatever. And for bamboo, part of it is making the long, basically sticks that go together to form the rod. But with your standard rod building, it's more of putting it together than it is, quote unquote, building. And I don't mean that to take away from it. But I feel like it might be confusing if you've never seen what goes into it to just be like, how do you build this?
Jon
Yeah, because some people do think that I make the blanks. And there's some people out there that do, for sure, in the United States. There's some great builders that have their own machines that are, you know, they have the mandrels with the tapers and they're making their own blanks. But, yeah, so like, well, you purchased like a blank and parts from me a couple of years ago and built one. And that was like your first foray into it, you know, not understanding what what goes into it. But, yes, the blanks that I get are already there. And then you have the guides and then the reel seat and the grip, you know, so a lot of people. And then I ask people what kind of, you know, thread, you know, do you want on there? And a lot of people are like, what do you mean thread? What's thread for?
Katie
Because you don't see, I mean, like you don't see it necessarily. If you don't, if you're not looking closely at your fly rod, you'd be like, where's their thread?
Jon
Right. So all the guides that are on the fly rod are first wrapped on there with thread. So that's where the colors of different threads come in. you can choose different colors for whatever blank that you want, whatever colors you want. So first you have to wrap the thread onto the guide onto the blank.
Katie
Yeah. So, so thinking back to when you kind of first helped me with it, I remember being like, there's so many parts that go into my flat rod that I didn't even know existed because I didn't know that the top part was called a tip top, you know, never, it never came up. And I feel like there's a lot of those things that when you, when you just own a rod, you're not really aware of it apart from, I know how my reel attaches, I know how the line feeds through the guides. I know how it feels when it casts. But until you put one together, you don't realize how, like, oh, yeah, the top guide is distinctly different from all the other ones. And when they get lower down, they get different again. And, like, the spine of the rod was something I had no idea about. And, like, how the reel seat goes on all these things that it's just, it opens your eyes to even rods you buy. And you're just like, oh, I can see all these things now. It looks like a puzzle put together instead of just a rod.
Jon
And you look at rods differently, too. like rods you're like you kind of look at the craftsmanship a little bit more instead of just picking up putting your reel on and fishing it you know like people don't realize that the blank of the rod where the grip and reel seat go that blank goes all the way through yeah I did not know yeah into the you know through the cork handle and down into the seat so yeah people don't know that and that's another thing you can't all these parts don't just fit together you know you get a grip court grip and a you know real seat so you know I have you know 500 and whatever different blanks or whatever I have the real seats and the grips don't always just fit automatically you know nothing is universal so you have to make that fit you know by reaming it out drilling it out you got a custom make thing sometimes to get them to fit together the right way and epoxy them on
Katie
like filing down the guides so they can be wrapped nicely
Jon
yeah you always want Yeah, you always want to Dremel tool or file down the guide feet so they're ramped up. So when you put them on the blank and you wrap in the thread up, it's a slow ramp up to the guide feet so the epoxy goes on. Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into it. But like with you and with other – I sell kits on my website as well. I don't do that many, but I do sell kits. And I help anybody out with the process. If they have any questions anytime throughout the process, they call or email. I point them in the direction of videos maybe I should find a newer video to send out that's a little bit more higher res to people but yeah people don't you know people really enjoy it and then once you make it then you go catch a fish with a rod that you made yourself maybe a fly you tied yourself it's it's a crazy feeling yeah it's it's different you know
Katie
yeah so I think what we were just talking about there might be kind of overwhelming for someone who's like has no idea what the process is. So like, do you just want to give kind of an overview if you were to try to describe to someone in like, you know, five minutes, what from start to finish, what goes into a rod? Like what pieces would you have in front of you? And then how do they go together and kind of in what order to end up at the, at the final stage of a rod? If you just kind of give an overview of the steps.
Jon
So first you, you get a blank that you want, you know, there's a bunch of places online, you can buy a blank, you know, nine foot, five weight, nine foot, six weight, 10 foot, three weight, whatever blank you want, you buy the blank. Then depending on the blank you get, you have to buy the guides and the guides come in different sizes. So if you have say a nine foot five weight, you're going to get guides to match that rod. So usually you have a nine foot rod, you're going to have 10 guides on it. Usually it's one more than the feet of the rod
Katie
so basically, does it end up being… this is not one per foot because near the tip they're getting closer together but does it average out to about one a foot then plus the one on the very end?
Jon
well the tip top doesn't count as one so it's you know the tip top plus 10 and then they come in different sizes of course the ones by the grip are bigger the stripping guides and then they gradually get smaller and there's guide spacing charts for like all blanks, not all blanks, but most of the time you buy a blank, you get the guide spacing. So the guide spacing is important because you don't want one of the guides to be in a bad place where the line isn't fully put in contact with that guide because then it's putting more pressure on different areas of the blank.
Katie
I didn't realize that's why the spacing mattered so much.
Jon
Yeah. So if you have different lengths, the guide spacing is going to be different for you know all that different stuff so yeah so you get the blanks then you get the guides and the tip top then you get the core candle and a real seat and if you want a hook keeper you get a hook keeper so those are the components that you have then you get some thread whatever thread color that you want to wrap the guides onto the blank
Katie
and remind me is this a special kind of thread like you buy like rod building thread or is this
Jon
yeah
Katie
what makes it special?
Jon
I'm not really exactly sure but the like say a thread for fabric is it doesn't have the coating like the fly like the rod wrapping thread's gonna have so it's like coating and the different size there's like size a and size b thread for the rod building I use a for smaller rods and b you could use for like saltwater rods it's like a thicker thicker thread but it's like the coating on there and stuff I'm not exactly sure the difference of that but yeah you definitely want to buy rod building thread and it's also different than like fly tying thread
Katie
okay I figured it might be but I wasn't sure what actually would be different about that
Jon
so then you get the thread there's videos online how to wrap your thread onto the blank and you know onto the guide and usually there's a little station you can buy like a cardboard wrapping station you know something cheap and easy simple you can make a wrapping station out of a cardboard box and so then you wrap those on and then you have to have epoxy there's like two-part epoxy there's for the grip and real seat and then there's epoxy that's thinner for the guides so you get epoxy for the handle the grip and the reel seat and epoxy those on
Katie
so that's more of just an adhesive like getting them to stay on whereas the epoxy on the guides you know like is visible and it's got to have like a nice smooth look to it and everything so is that why they're different
Jon
just different applications basically usually it's like a 10 minute 20 minute drying epoxy for the reel seat in the handle and then the other epoxy is going to be like it'll take well it takes 36 hours for it to completely cure and harden and usually you'll put two coats of epoxy on okay for the guides just one coat I mean one thing of epoxy for the grip and reel seat but
Katie
now talk about the spine of the rod because that was something I was completely unaware even existed until I built it and I also I feel like I spent a lot of time trying to get that right yeah and I was I know I googled it I remember seeing differing opinions of people being like you really need to get this right on or people being like look you know unless you're a really great caster and these are really good blanks, you're probably not going to really notice the difference. And I remember thinking like, well, I want to make it right. You know, I don't want to just half-ass this and throw it together, but I was also getting frustrated trying to find it. And what is it and how important do you think it is to really nail it?
Jon
So when these sheets of carbon fiber graphite are rolled onto the mandrels and heated and creating the blanks there is a natural spot on those blanks that the rod wants to bend so if you put all four pieces of your rod together and bend it you know I put the you know the butt section on the ground and the tip and bend it it's going to want to bend a certain way on its own so you kind of want to build on that spine or on the other side of the spine like you want them to all be lined up together to that on this and it's and then also some people call it a spline with an l s-p-l-i-n-e some people call it just a spine so you know but as you said there's two schools where it kind of doesn't matter I mean I've read where it kind of matters mostly for like salt water and super heavy rods
Katie
oh really I would have guessed the opposite I would have guessed like a really fine rod would it would matter more with it like a big rod you know might not even really be flexing as much.
Jon
And so most of the builders out there, I'm not going to speak forI shouldn't say that. Sorry, but I don't know what most of the builders do, but from what I've read on all the building forums and stuff for like the stuff that I'm doing, that we're doing, you want to build it on the straight access of when you put the blanks together. So you put all four pieces together and make sure it's straight because when they're making these blanks, not all of them are always completely straight when you hold them up. Now, like the cheaper ones, they're going to be crooked, you know? So, but I've, I mean, to be quite honest, I've gotten blanks from high end companies and you hold it up and their blanks aren't that straight either. So, you know, it kind of just depends on the batch of blanks that you get if they're going to be straight or not. But my philosophy is I build it to where when you put it together, it's straight. Okay. So I'll look for the spine and then make sure when I put it all together and it looks and it's straight, that it's all bending in the same direction. So I don't, I kind of check for both, but what's most important is you want it to be straight. And that's kind of the school that I go with is like, because nobody wants to put together a fly rod and it's bent, you know, 30 degrees to the left or whatever, you know, so that's kind of me. I just kind of build it where it's straight and then I check to make sure it's all bending nicely together and then start putting the guides on.
Katie
Okay. One thing I noticed was that I had trouble finding the spine on the like base section. Do you actually find the spine for that? Or is that more of a, you got to line the first three up, but the bottom one is kind of a throwaway?
Jon
And like if you're getting an eight weight, sometimes the third section is difficult to find the spine on because you can't bend it.
Katie
Yeah.
Jon
So, yeah. So what I do is find for the three sections and then I put the bottom, the fourth section on and then I'll bend it. And if it's like kind of off, then I'll move, I'll turn the fourth section a little bit like, you know, a quarter turn and then bend it again. And then you'll notice that your marks that you put on for the spine, they'll line up at one of the points with that fourth section on. So that's kind of how I've found it.
Katie
Now, do you put the spine on the side that you want the rod? How do I phrase this? Do you want it to bend toward the spine or do you want it to bend away from the spine?
Jon
So I put my guides on the bottom side.
Katie
So like where you've marked it?
Jon
Yes. I've heard – I don't make saltwater rods really. I've only made like a couple. I've heard for saltwater, you want to put it on top of where it bends, like where you mark it.
Katie
Okay. And I guess when you're marking it, you're marking it the way it bends.
Jon
Yeah.
Katie
Okay. So you're putting your – you're having it bend naturally toward the downward motion. Yeah. And why salt – like why does saltwater matter?
Jon
I'm not sure. I think because they're heavier.
Katie
Okay. So you found the spine and this is something that I was surprised about was that the next step is just to tape the guides on. And it just seemed like there were actually a lot of things in this process that I was surprised how like rudimentary it was. Like just tape the guides on. I think one of the options for getting the like cork or reel seat to fit was to like layer tape under it. You know, like there's just these.
Jon
Masking tape is definitely your friend.
Katie
Yeah. And it was just like a weird thing to find out that tape is involved so much. you'd think it would be, you know, like, oh, you put a small piece of specialized putty under there. So then you're just like, nope, it's just tape.
Jon
So they do make like a wax that you can use. I haven't had much luck with that. So you heat the wax up, put the guide foot on the wax and then put it on the blank and it's supposed to hold it there. And then when you put the epoxy on and heat up the epoxy and put it on, that kind of melts and, or you can like thumb it off or whatever. I haven't had much luck with that. So what I do is I just cut small strips of masking tape and line it up and tape it on and then start wrapping. And I get like up to the masking tape and then just take that little piece of tape off. And like I mentioned earlier, not everything fits like the way it's supposed to. So sometimes you have, you know, a three weight blank where the butt section is the diameter is very small and a person wants a certain real seat. Well, that doesn't fit on there. Right. The real seat's too big. So then that's when you kind of put masking tape on the blank to build that up so that the seat fits onto that butt section. And then you put epoxy all on that. And then the same is true, a lot of fiberglass rods, the butt section diameter is very large. And you can't get a real seat onto that. So you have to make a stent for that. So you'll literally cut off a section of the butt from that fiberglass. Oh, really? Yes, and then you will have a smaller diameter blank from another fiberglass rod that's smaller. And so you put part of that up into the butt section. I have no idea about that. You have the smaller butt section hanging off, and then you can put your real seat onto that smaller section.
Katie
I thought you could put a file in the – I guess – no, that's the cork I'm thinking of. That you could kind of file it out to make it a little bit bigger.
Jon
So you get a reamer for the cork and you ream that out to how big you need it. Yeah. And you do ream out your reel seats. But sometimes, like I said, sometimes the fiberglass is so large that you can't ream out all of that in that reel seat. So then you have to make a stent for it.
Katie
One of the hardest things, like the most frustrating parts that I remember, apart from finding the spine, which I think would get easier with – I mean, I'm sure all this would get easier with practice, but I feel like the spine, it was just such a foreign concept that I was trying to figure it out. But one of the most frustrating parts I remember was the fact that the guides did not always line up very straight. Like the two feet of the guides would not be perfectly straight. And it would, you know, one would be a little bit angled. And because you have to wrap them so, you know, tightly and securely to the rod, you want them to, you know, sit flush with it. And I remember it was just, and I'm not talking about the taper down to the rod.
Jon
you filed it off but just so sometimes you'll get the guide feet where they're bent a little bit yeah so you kind of have to bend them if you get snake brand guides the they're made in the u.s and they're really good they're mostly completely straight so it kind of depends on where the guides are coming from the lower quality stuff you really have to finagle and make fit the way you want to you know what I mean so yeah so you have to like get them so the guide are, you know, sitting straight on the blank and are level on there. Yep. Okay.
Katie
So next step in the process, you've taped, taped the guides on, and I forget what's the order of like real seat and cork. Cause I think that's what came next, right? Putting it before the thread wrapping.
Jon
So I kind of, the way I do mine is like, I will wrap all my guides on first.
Katie
Oh, you did?
Jon
Yeah.
Katie
Jon
Okay. I remember that being the last thing I did before the epoxy. So I wrap all my guides And then I do the cork and the seat and let that dry for a day. Put that on, let that dry for a day. Then I put on the hook keeper above the cork handle. And then I put on my little section where I have custom decals for everybody that orders a fly rod gets to choose what's on the custom decal. So I have a little area for that. Then I glue on the tip top and then wrap that on. And then I'm ready for epoxy for the guides.
Katie
Okay. And I guess just walk through what goes into that. Because that's kind of an interesting process for someone who hasn't seen it before. Yeah, epoxy. Yeah, because the rod rotates around. And I was informed by a very helpful blog reader that I screwed my epoxy up. Because I made it a little too football shaped instead of flat.
Jon
Yeah, that can happen. I've definitely had that problem in the past, you know, as well. Epoxy, like for me personally, that's my least favorite part of the whole build is doing the epoxy. Because if you mess that up, it's cutting that off is so difficult. If you mess up that epoxy, it's so difficult to fix.
Katie
Like if you mess up the thread, you just pull it and start again.
Jon
Right. Yep. The thread, you just cut it off, you know, just pull it off and rewrap it with the thread. But the epoxy, that's like, that's it. You know, if you have bubbles in it, if it's too much or whatever. So the two-part epoxy, and it takes like about an hour for me. And the shelf life after you mix that epoxy is about an hour or two. So your time crunched because when you mix your two-part epoxy, as soon as you mix it together, it starts to harden.
Katie
I remember you had me warm it up to keep it.
Jon
You can like put it in warm water for like, you know, 15, 20 minutes to warm it up. and then you mix it evenly. There's a lot of people that screw that up too. They'll accidentally mix too much of part A and not enough part B. And if you do that, the epoxy will never dry. It will never harden.
Katie
It'll just be like sticky, like tacky?
Jon
Yes. It has to be exactly two parts even. So yes, then there's the rod turning motor. So it's like just a little motor on a stand, and you put your butt or your reel seat into that section, and it turns it. You don't have to have this, but it's way easier. I've heard of people putting on epoxy and like every 15 minutes turning their rod for six hours.
Katie
Really? That seems like not only a hassle, but just a recipe for some sort of like looking at your rod, just having globs sticking out all in the same direction because you forgot to time it just right.
Jon
Yeah. So invest in a rod turner, you know, motor.
Katie
How much does, not to derail us here, But like how much does this, the rod building stuff cost? Not the rod itself, but like the motor, the stand, the thing that holds the tension on the thread.
Jon
So I think you got that cardboard wrapper and station, I think. Yeah. That was like 15 bucks. Okay. How about the motor? So the motor is maybe 20, 25. Oh, really? That's it? And then maybe 35, 40. I'll have to double check. But when you get the motor, it comes with a couple of stands, of course, because, you know, the way I do mine, I break them into two pieces. I can't do a nine-foot-long rod all at once. So I'll have two pieces on one and two pieces on another one.
Katie
So you've got two motors going at the same time with two halves.
Jon
And they have stands to hold them level, so you have to make sure they're level because you want the epoxy to dry level. So what I do is I warm my epoxy up. I mix it two parts, let it mix for five minutes. Then you pour it on to a foil tray because the foil helps make the epoxy last longer. And then you take a little tiny paintbrush and slowly start putting epoxy on that thread as it's turning. And after the epoxy is on, I have like an alcohol burner. And so I'll take that flame like near it to warm it up to get any of the air bubbles out. So you want to get the air bubbles out.
Katie
I completely forgot about that step. Because when you mentioned the bubbles earlier, I was like, oh, yeah, you don't want bubbles in there. But I have no idea how I got them out because, I don't know, it was probably two years ago now that I built that one rod. Yeah. But, yeah, that does ring a bell. And that part I found really fun. Watching the bubbles, like, it's very satisfying to look down at your epoxy and see, you know, it looks like fuzzy almost because it's full of bubbles. Yeah. And then you do that and it just starts to, like, glisten and become, like, smooth and uniform.
Jon
Yep. So once you heat that up and get the bubbles out, you can take your brush again and smooth out the epoxy and wipe off any excess epoxy so you don't get footballs. So maybe I did not help you with that part and didn't tell you about that part.
Katie
So the sole cause of that is just too much epoxy?
Jon
Yes.
Katie
Okay.
Jon
And it just goes into the middle and causes like footballs.
Katie
I am not surprised I did that because I think in my mind I was just getting worked up over the fact that I feel like the thread. I mean, the thread probably is doing a lot to hold those guides on there. But in my mind, it's thread.
Jon
Right.
Katie
Like, how is that going to hold up against a big fish? I need to, like, anchor this down with some epoxy that's actually going to be doing the – like, in my mind, the thread was a decorative thing under the epoxy, which was really holding the guide on, which I'm sure the thread is actually doing a lot of the work.
Jon
Especially with that thread, you know, all tightly wrapped together. And with that epoxy on there, definitely – because I've had to take off, you know, some. You try to cut that epoxy and thread off of that blank, it's very difficult. It doesn't come up easily.
Katie
But it can be done in a pinch? Have you ever had to remove?
Jon
Well, I've had to fix rods. Other people will send me repairs of rods, and I'll have to cut that off and redo them. I've done a couple repairs to bamboo rods that I've had to cut off the guides and rewrap them and re-epoxy them.
Katie
So you've repaired bamboo rods?
Jon
well the guides on the bamboo
Katie
Right yeah yeah yeah yeah because I guess once the bamboo
Katie
you know quote-unquote blanks I don't know if they call them blanks in the bamboo world but once they're built they're essentially I guess like any other
Jon
well they could come delaminated I haven't you know what I mean those parts they glue them together and so they could come delaminated and I haven't messed with that but I have put new grips and new seats on bamboos that people wanted and you know, fix guides on, you know, stuff. Yeah. So.
Katie
How much would, would you estimate, and obviously I encourage people to come just buy rod from you if they want one, but if someone's interested in building one, what would you think would be a reasonable cost? Like, you know, if someone went just like, I want to build a rod, how much do they look into spend on kind of a basic, you know, nothing super fancy, but between all the components and, and maybe the stuff to like the motor and stuff to hold them.
Jon
Right. The components, you know, you could get a kit, you know, anywhere from like $120 to, you know, however much you want to spend. You know, you get a fiberglass, nice fiberglass one. It's going to cost you $300, $400 just for the components. You know what I mean? But I sell my components between, you know, like $140, somewhere around there.
Katie
And that's a kit, like they're basically just getting the disassembled rod.
Jon
Yes. Put together. Yes. And then they have to buy, and there's like some tools you can use to, and you get some tools like a thread burnisher and, you know, stuff like that. That could run another 80.
Katie
Which I guess if you're building multiple rods, I mean, it's kind of not negligible, but it's not that much if you're going to use it multiple times.
Jon
Right, because you might want a three-weight, a five-weight, an eight-weight, and then make your buddies or, you know, whoever rods. Yeah. So you spend a little bit of money to get these pieces, you know, to use it, and you can use it multiple times.
Katie
yeah so cool under three hundred dollars which is not bad I mean and I know you can get better blanks
Jon
right name brand let's say name brand you know mine are just generic you know
Katie
but you could buy like sage blanks or you know blue halo blanks for fiberglass exactly and I don't think I mean all all fly rod companies don't sell blanks
Jon
right no no like sage does. There's a bunch out there that do, but no, a lot of them don't.
Katie
Cool. Well, I mean, can you think of anything else that like, if you had to give some parting words to somebody who's like, I really want to do this, what should I know going in? Like, do you have any parting words or parting tips for someone who wants to give it a try?
Jon
If you have an interest or even a thought, you should definitely do it. And if you have the time, you know, like I think you made yours over the winter. Oh, that's it. There was no hunting or less hunting. There wasn't much going on.
Katie
I guess That's another question, though. It's like how long does it take from start to finish? If you work like a reasonable number of – not you're working 24 hours a day, but like say you put two to three hours a day on it, how many days are you looking at?
Jon
So it takes me usually like a week, week and a half to finish because you've got to think if the wrapping of the guides will take a couple hours, a few days here and there. Well, if you're new, it might take you longer because you might mess up and have to start over or you don't like whatever. But you've got to remember if you're epoxy and the grip and the seat on, you do that you gotta wait a day there's a lot of waiting you know then you do two coats usually of epoxy for the you know guides and you put one coat on gotta wait a day put the second coat on gotta wait a day
Katie
you know it's like recipes that say the total time is three hours but the working time is 30 minutes or whatever.
Jon
yeah exactly so for me doing it in the evenings and on the weekends you know it'll take me like a week week and a half like currently I have like five rods I'm working on right now. I had a guy email me and was going on a trip next week and needed a ride. And I'm like, sorry, it takes me a little bit longer, you know, to put the stuff together. And then I have to order the decals, you know, so there's a company in Tennessee that creates the decals. They do a great job and it's, you know, they're fairly cheap. So that's just built into the cost, you know, it's no extra cost because, and you get to choose whatever you want on the decal. But if you ever thought of building one and you've tied flies and you have the patience for that and you have the time I say go for it because it's so much fun kind of like the next step up yeah maybe not the next step up from fly tying
Katie
I mean fly tying can be you can get lost in that too yeah I kind of feel like people take up fly tying first you know that's the first that's a natural first I like fly fishing I want to do something creative within that I want to make something that's the first step but like I feel like this is a great second step and I actually I liked ride building more than fly tying and I'm not a huge huge fly tire like I do it now and then but I'm no expert by any means but I think I prefer working for a while on one thing and then having a big reward at the end versus churning out like two dozen flies at once where each one doesn't feel that special because you're doing a whole bunch yeah and I really like the process like watching it come together over a couple days and and really seeing the transformation of like a pile of stuff right to a fishable rod like that's really cool to me
Jon
yeah and you know there's some people that tell me the bat, I don't have any desire to try to do this. You know, they don't have the patience. They don't even want to try. They'll just have me do it or whoever do it. And that's, or, you know, buy one, that's fine. You know, but there's certain people out there that they enjoy. Like for me, it's like craft or it's like an art, you know, to me, it's like kind of artwork because everyone is different. You can choose whatever thread color you want. You know, there was one rod I made for a guy. Each guide had a separate different color of wrap. Yeah. It was like went through the spectrum of like dark color to light. It looks so cool. I'd never made one and he had that idea. And so we put together different colors. So the, you know, options are endless. Um, and it's just fun to have a unique, one of a kind rod that either you made or had somebody made.
Katie
Like you pull it out of the rod tube. And somebody was like, Oh, what, what kind of rod do you have?
Jon
You're like, well, actually, yeah, yeah. It's a Yellowfin, you know, and it's got your name on it or it's got, you know, sometimes people have sayings on it or they've done, you know, so yeah it's it's it's a blast you know if you had if anybody has a want to even try it you know it's not difficult it's a little time consuming you know but not too bad if you have the time I definitely say try it it's it's well worth it to catch a fish on a rod that you built yourself it's a ton of fun
Katie
yeah ton of fun and I think I would just add to that obviously is I don't have as much experience anywhere near what you do but having having built the one and having that one experience what I took from it is like it doesn't need to be perfect because a lot of the stuff on it like you're still going to catch fish like the guy who was like oh your your epoxy looks like football like guess how many fewer fish I've caught because they look like footballs right zero like I still catch fish on it and as long as the guides aren't like popping off one by one right exactly like it's good to go and you know obviously there's better craftsmanship and like a rod that you make is going to be far superior to the one I made but I still catch fish on it and it doesn't matter that it's not perfect right just it was fun to do it's fun to have so there's no I guess like I wouldn't want anyone to be discouraged because they're like you know what I'm just not very creative like I don't I've never been very artistic I think it would just turn out like crap like it doesn't a lot of it doesn't really matter it for the function of it you know you can make it very artsy and you can put a lot of time into making it look good yeah but exactly I wouldn't want anyone to be deterred from trying it just because they think that they're not creative or craftsy
Jon
yeah yeah I mean yeah and if you're like yeah if you're not like hands-on type of person or you don't you can't build you know build something you know you know you'd be surprised that you know you just watch a few videos and just try it
Katie
you know what it's it's a ton of fun. so where can people find you if they want to buy a very affordable custom rod with their name on it and all the works
Jon
I'm at yellowfinrods.com and on instagram at yellowfinrods
Katie
I assume you just have like an order form on there that you can just, or do you shoot you an email?
Jon
Yeah, you can shoot me an email at, you know, Jonathan Hill at Yellowfin Rods, or there's order forms. You can fill out an order form and like choose what you want. The easiest way is probably email because there's so much going back and forth because there's a lot to choose from. So usually what I do is like if people are in town, they'll stop by the shop, you know, they'll stop by and look at and pick things out. If they're not in town, I send a bunch of pictures of everything they can choose from and then give my opinion if they want my opinion on what might look better, be better. And so there's a process of back and forth before I even get started. So I have an order right now. This guy changes mine like 10 times already, which is completely fine until I start it. Don't change your mind when I start it. But, you know, it's definitely a fun process and creative on both sides, you know, who I'm building it for and for me. so yeah come take a look and hit me up
Katie
yeah I encourage anyone to give it a try because it was like I said it was a lot of fun and even if they don't want to build one themselves I mean like I said your prices are well below a lot of fly rods people buy that aren't custom so right I think be a wise investment
Jon
yes thank you thank you
Katie
all right cheers
Jon
cheers thanks
Katie
all right guys thanks for listening don't forget to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes and show notes. And also, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. That'll get my episodes delivered straight to your phone. And also, if you have not yet, please consider going over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating or review. That's very helpful for me and I'd greatly appreciate it. Other than that, thank you guys again for listening and I will be back in two weeks. Bye, everybody.
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