Ep 44: Fly Fishing the Everglades, with John Kumiski
John Kumiski is a writer, photographer, guide, and teacher. After leaving his childhood home in Massachusetts and settling down in Florida, John got to know the Everglades quite well. While it’s easy to think of the vast landscapes of the west or the dense woods of the northeast when you hear the word “backcountry,” John frequently finds the same solitude by paddling deep into the marshes and brackish water of the Everglades, camping on chickees and fishing from a kayak. In this episode, we discuss the Everglades as a whole, fish species, gear and techniques, special considerations for this area of the country, and some things to keep in mind if you’re trying to plan your own trip to fish in Florida.
Website: johnkumiski.com
Website: spottedtail.com
Instagram: @spottedtailflyfish
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 44 with John Kumiski on fly fishing the Everglades. Yeah we can we can just hop right in. If you want to just start by maybe giving me a little bit of a background about yourself. How'd you get started in fly-fishing?
John
My dad started taking me fishing as soon as I learned how to walk. But my dad was not a fly fisherman. He mostly used bait. But he had a fly rod which was probably one of the first glass fiberglass fly rods ever made. 'cause prior to that they were all bamboo or other natural materials. So that thing hung out in our garage forever. And when they said, I'm gonna teach myself how to learn how to use that thing, I went to the library and got a book from the Barnes Sporting Library, it was called "Fly Casting." And I took the fishing rod in my yard after reading the book and started casting. when my yard got too small, I hopped the fence into the church yard behind me, which was a much bigger yard and neighbors started calling my mother, telling her that I wasn't gonna catch any fish there 'cause there wasn't any water. So even at the young age of 12 or so, which is around when this happened, I was already eccentric.
Katie
So you gotta tell me what it's like to learn to fly cast from a book because I was actually just talking to somebody else about this, how we have it so nice these days, being able to watch videos or meet up with groups and people used to have to learn it the hard way, either finding a mentor or learning it via a book and I just can't imagine learning to fly cast from a book. What was that like?
John
Well, you don't learn to cast very well. I had a terrible, terrible problem with tailing loops for a long time. I took a class when I got to Florida. I got here in 1984. There's a gentleman by the name of John Cave who has been running a fly fishing school since before I got here. And I took a class with him. And he got some of my kinks out and I just worked out the rest of them from there. Not that I'm a great caster, but I'm good, I'm competent.
Katie
Now, did you grow up in Florida?
John
I grew up in Massachusetts.
Katie
Oh, Massachusetts. Okay, what took you to Florida?
John
When I graduated from UMass, I got a job teaching in Brazil. when I got married, two things were related. When we left Brazil, we stopped in Florida to visit a friend and while we were there, she got evicted, her son got suspended, she broke up with her boyfriend, we stayed here to help her and been here ever since.
Katie
The rest is history.
John
Yep.
Katie
So when you first started fishing, what were you fishing for? I assume, was this in Massachusetts when you first picked it up?
John
We fished for stocked trout 'cause I lived in suburban Boston. I don't know how well you know the East Coast. There's a town out of Boston called Medford. Tufts University is there. And that's where I went to high school. So, Mass Fish and Wildlife, they had a big stocking program because wild trout would not live in Eastern Massachusetts. We fished for those. We fished for largemouth bass. We fished for chain pickerel. And, you know, I was a little kid. I fished for yellow perch and sunfish and crappie and anything else that you get to bite because when you're a child, you don't care about the finer points of angling, you know, you just wanna get a bite.
Katie
Right.
John
That really never went away. Now I wanna get bites from bigger fish, but I still just wanna get a bite.
Katie
Yeah, I think there's something to be said about, you know, even when you can appreciate just being out on the water, there is a difference between just being out to enjoy it and actually getting something to the net, even if it's nothing special, just getting a fish on the line is what everyone's going for at the end of the day.
John
A wise man once told me that fishing is more enjoyable when the fish participate.
Katie
That's definitely true.
John
That’s what I think.
Katie
So you get to Florida and you're already fishing at this point. So did you basically just transfer that over and say, what is there for me to catch here?
John
Yeah, but you know, fishing here is very, very different than fishing in Massachusetts. Massachusetts was, you're in Montana, are you not? I'm in Colorado. In Colorado. Massachusetts was glaciated. Cape Cod is a big glacial moraine. So we had deep ponds, you know? And my dad only fished in fresh water. I never really fished in salt water. So I get to Florida and all these places, it's a foot deep as far as you can see. And I'm there like, what is this? I was lucky I had a couple of guys who took me under their wing and really taught me a lot. And I started writing. Through writing I started fishing with guides and fishing with guides. I thought I can do this So I ended up getting my captain's license. I quit my teaching job and went fishing which I have never regretted
Katie
Yes, I say that sounds kind of like the life
John
After teaching eighth grade physical science. Oh my god. What an improvement fishing was
Katie
that's funny you mentioned that. I know a lot of teachers and I feel like of all the grades to teach I'm sure seventh and eighth grade have got to be up there in some of the most difficult.
John
Eighth graders do not care about molecular motion I can assure you of that.
Katie
Well one thing I wanted to ask I was probably gonna ask it later but you kind of brought it up there how how different is Florida from the rest of the U.S. when it comes to fly-fishing and I know we're talking specifically about the Everglades here more than offshore fishing, which I'm sure is its own beast. When it comes to the freshwater aspect, a lot of people know what the West is like. A lot of people picture the Northeast, maybe the Northern Midwest. How does Florida stack up against those other places?
John
Freshwater fishing?
Katie
Yeah.
John
Well, we don't have any cold water fish, obviously. We have largemouth bass. Bass fishing is bass fishing. Where I do most of my bass fishing is a small river near me. It doesn't have any weeds. All the bass structure is a fallen lumber. And because of that, you pretty much have to use floating flies because if you use flies that sink, you hook wood all day, which gets to be aggravating and lose a lot of flies. So I only go fish there when the water's low and I know the fish will come up.
Katie
No, it's Florida pretty pretty good for bass fishing. I feel like that's a state that comes to mind when I think of pretty solid bass fishing
John
There are certainly bass here. They're heavily fished and You know fish learn hook avoidance so the heavier fish a place is More educated the fish that aren't removed from the water become and they get very hard to catch I think that the bass here could tell you the patent numbers on all the plastic baits that are made So, if you want to find good fishing, you have to be willing to spend some sweat equity and find places that are not accessible to bass boats, that are difficult to get into. Then fishing should be great.
Katie
That's interesting that you mention that because obviously I'm sure that any species that gets heavily fished for in a given area does wise up a bit to the angling pressure. But I don't think about bass as much when I think of that. come to mind is some of these heavily fished tailwaters around where I live. It's known that the fish see the same patterns every day and you might want to try to avoid whichever pattern the fly shop is telling everybody to use because most likely even if it's an effective pattern, the trout have seen it a million times. But bass don't usually come to mind when I think of that and I guess maybe it's just because bass fishing isn't as big as trout fishing out here. But that definitely makes sense that a bass could learn the same thing. I think people just put trout up on a pedestal when it comes to how smart they can get, but maybe it's easy to forget that bass can do the same thing.
John
Years ago, my son, my younger son Alex, got a new girlfriend. The girlfriend's mother had a little retention pond behind her house, it was an acre or two. So he's looking at the pond, he said, "I should try fishing here." So he did. He used a gurgler, you know what they are?
Katie
Yeah, I haven't used one, but I'm familiar with what it is.
John
So he used a gurgler. He killed it. He called his friend, he said, "You need to come fish this place with me." In two weeks, they couldn't get a bite.
Katie
Oh really, they learn that fast?
John
They didn't keep any fish either. They let all the fish go. In two weeks, they could not catch another one.
Katie
Huh, I definitely wouldn't have guessed that it would be that quick. I would assume it's over years.
John
No, it happens fast. I give you another example with saltwater fish. After 9/11, the Banana River Lagoon was, there's a section of the Banana River Lagoon on the east side is a Canaveral Air Force Station, on the west side is the NASA property. So that had been open to the public for non-motorized vessels only. You could take a kayak or canoe up there. After 9/11, they closed it to all entry. After a year, they opened up the west side, but the east side stayed closed for four and a half years. One day, my friend Tom called me and said, next Tuesday, they're opening up the no motor zone east side, the badge personnel. And he was a fireman out in the space center. So he was said badge personnel. He invited me to go. It was like, heck, yeah.
Katie
Yeah.
John
It was unbelievable. But everyone that worked out in the space centers, went fishing in two weeks. Those fish were the same as any of the fish anywhere else around the whole area that's not there, you know, in the rest of the lagoon. Yeah, it only took a couple of weeks.
Katie
Man, that's crazy. I mean, I know I didn't think of bass at all, but I wouldn't have even guessed that some of the more well-known, like, wary fish, like trout, would pick something up so fast. I, you know, it just seems like it would require, you know, being hooked over and over and over again for that to happen. And I'm sure the bass do get hooked a bunch, but I don't know. It's just surprising to me that it would be that fast.
John
Sweat equity is a great thing
Katie
For sure
John
If you can drive up to it, it’s going to be hard to catch fish there. I don’t care how many fare in there
Katie
Well that’s the reason I really like getting out into the backcountry. I mean, that’s my favorite place to fish and that’s kind of what I like to focus on when I can. And most of it’s because I like putting in the work to get somewhere and then having easy fishing once I get there. I’m not as big a fan of driving up somewhere and having to figure out the fish. I want the fish to play along and I’ll put in the miles of work to get there if I have to.
John
So you understand exactly what I'm talking about.
Katie
Right.
John
The backcountry lakes versus the tailwaters.
Katie
Right, and that kind of transitions us into the Everglades specifically because that was something I was really intrigued about when you sent me that post that you wanted to share on the website is that a lot of times, at least when I think of backcountry, I'm thinking of mostly the west and maybe that's because I'm out here, but also there's just something romantic to think about, the mountains and hiking 10 miles in and being away from everybody, but it might be easy to overlook the fact that the Southeast also has places that are just as remote as we have out here. It just might not be the image that people think of when they think of classic backcountry fly fishing. I really have no knowledge of the Everglades apart from a very rudimentary overview. Do you just want to give kind of an overview of what the Everglades are and kind of the style of fishing that goes on there?
John
Well, to the best of my ability. I don't have any experience freshwater fishing in the Everglades. I know a lot of people when they think of Everglades, they think of the river of grass, bass, sunfish, all that stuff. I haven't ever done that, excuse me. But all my fishing there has been saltwater. The longest trip I took there, we started up at the north end of Everglades National Park. We launched at a river bridge on Highway 41 on the Turner River. paddle down the river into Chokoloskee Bay, which is brackish, and spent 13 days paddling a hundred miles down the Flamingo, following the Gulf Coast and Florida Bay. Now, when we did that, it was like 35 years ago, there were six of us. We only brought half as much food as we needed 'cause I knew we would catch fish for the other half. If you did that today, you would starve to death. You can't do that now 'cause you won't catch enough fish. The first trip I took there in 1980 that I mentioned before we started recording, we wrote five or six days, we saw one other boat. Flats gifts really hadn't been invented yet. So if you get on there now though, just flats boats every place and everyone has a GPS now. It was intimidating back then 'cause it was so easy to get lost. The maps weren't that accurate and everything looks the same. It's not like being in the mountains. That mountain is a reference, you know?
Katie
Right, right.
John
And the Everglades, it's very flat and all the mangrove trees look exactly alike, so.
Katie
Oh yeah, I'm sure it would be super easy to get lost there even with a map. I mean, I'm sure things change day by day and what's not water isn't necessarily land. I feel like here you've got water and you've got land and you can follow a stream and there's a lake and there's this and that. But I feel like in the Everglades, it's gotta be hard because you might not be able to go somewhere but it could just be mangroves or grasses or things like that that are blocking your way, not necessarily land that you can necessarily pick out on a map.
John
The tide could be out, it could be wet at high tide and dry at low tide.
Katie
And so is, I'm obviously probably asking really basic questions for someone who is familiar with the Everglades, but how, does it go from saltwater to brackish water to fresh water? Is it kind of separate, more separated where there's bass lakes and sunfish lakes and then directly connected to the saltwater. What's the layout like water-wise?
John
Historically, the Everglades started up by Orlando and there was a sheet flow. There weren't any highways before Columbus got here, which is what I'm talking about a long time ago. Rain that fell anywhere in that shallow basin there ran down to Lake Okeechobee. When the lake got high, it would overflow its southern bank and all that water would sheet flow. And by sheet flow, I mean, it's like, it's a river, maybe a foot deep, but 60 miles wide. All that water would slowly flow down into the Everglades and work its way out into the Gulf of Mexico and Florida Bay. Then Europeans got here. Canals, we can make this place better. Canals, roads, ditches, dikes. In the 1930s, I forget the year, There was a big hurricane that trashed Lake Okeechobee. It drowned about 3,500 people on the south side of the lake 'cause they had a poorly built levee there. And the lake came over the levee and drowned everybody. So they made the levee much, much bigger and they dug big ditches, one to the east and one to the west to drain the place. So the sheet flow isn't flowing so much anymore. and the type of flow has changed. There's not as much fresh water as there used to be. The brackish places became salt. The fresh places became brackish. Since I moved here, I've heard talk about Everglades restoration. All I've heard about it is talk. Nothing's been done. It just keeps getting worse.
Katie
So is the aspect that's getting worse, is that it's getting overly developed?
John
Florida is getting overly developed. I mean, the National Park is a National Park. But if you build houses all around the National Park, that's going to change the water flow that's going into the park, which is what's happened.
Katie
Yeah, I think it's easy to think that if it's a National Park, it's protected, but environmental factors don't care too much about boundaries that people have put on a map.
John
My point, exactly.
Katie
So how much of the Everglades is National Park versus the entire area? How much of it's not in the national park? Is it a significant part of it?
John
The national park is about two million acres. It's just a big chunk of property. I mean, you definitely get lost in there, and there's still fish in there. And believe me, there's plenty of bugs that will take your blood. All around it keeps getting built and built and built and built.
Katie
Okay, so there's a significant portion that's not protected. I would assume more of it's not protected than it is.
John
Between Lake Okeechobee and where the Everglades National Park is there are large farms that grow sugarcane, which adds to the water quality problems because they use a lot of fertilizer. All that land is privately owned and when it's not productive for growing sugarcane anymore, what do you suppose is going to happen to it? It will start popping houses up. I moved to Florida in 1984. I used to belong to the League of Environmental Educators in Florida at which their conferences, I learned that 900 people a day moved to Florida. That was going on in 1984. It has not changed. So if you add 1,000 people a day over 30 or 40 years, that's a big difference in population. It hasn't slowed down. People that live in New York, this time of year, they get fed up with snow and ice and plows and all that stuff, and they move down here. No one's put a gate up.
Katie
Yeah, we have the same issue out here in Colorado, and I'm maybe not wanting to talk about it I moved out here as well, probably before the major rush started. But I always wonder, you know, what's it like to live in a state where people are leaving? Because it seems like most of the places out west, and I'm sure where you are and some of the other states, it's just a mad rush of people into it. And I always wonder what it's like to be in one of those states that is losing people instead of gaining them. Because out here, it's the same way. And for us, the problems are things like traffic and people getting out on the trails when it's sensitive times for like elk populations and things like that. So that's what we're dealing with versus your overdevelopment in the Everglades. But the same overall issue of just too many people too quickly and too small of a space that can't handle that that influx.
John
Has it affected your water quality?
Katie
I'm not sure about the water quality itself. I hear about it more often in terms of wildlife populations being affected. Obviously you have a lot more water in your state than we do. I'm sure down here in Denver we might deal with water quality issues, but up in the mountains I feel like it's generally... Water quality isn't what comes to mind when it comes to overpopulation of people, but you hear a lot about populations of elk not being able to make it because sensitive calving areas are being infiltrated by hunters and anglers and skiers and hikers and just more people getting out into places they didn't historically get out into.
John
The problem here in Florida besides the water quality issues is habitat loss. And I know that's not... those two things are not limited to Florida. Those happen every place.
Katie
For sure. Well maybe on a more positive note...
John
Yeah, let's talk about fishing.
Katie
Yeah, we got that out of the way. Why don't we go into just some of the species you have down there. And I know you like kayaking for them, so I'd also love to hear about some of the techniques used to fish the Everglades and whether you can wait it or if it's all boat access and what you're targeting.
John
When my kids were little, I would take them down there. Kids want to bite, right? So we mentioned that earlier. I would bring a cast net. I would bring spin rods. We would write down species of fish we caught, every new species. We would come home after three days because they were little and we would have 17 or 20 species. Wow. caught in the net, didn't matter how we catch them. We'd write down everything. So there's lots of different kinds of things there. Fly fishermen, having said that, fly fishermen want tarpon. They want snook. Those are probably the two biggest things. They're more likely to catch spotted sea trout or redfish. But on a good day, get all four of those with a fly. The tarpon probably wouldn't be 100 pounders, but tarpon are my favorite fish. They can be 10 inches, it doesn't make a difference. Just use smaller rod. There's lots of other things. There are lady fish, there are jackrabbit, there are what I used to call Jewfish, they now call them Goliath grouper, you can catch those with flies. There's weird stuff you get that you pull it in and say, what is this? Lizardfish come to mind, sea robins come to mind. There are black drum there, you can catch those with flies occasionally. So yeah, you catch stuff you have no idea what it is.
Katie
That sounds super fun because here, you know, we do have tons of species in Colorado, but not being connected to a greater system. You know, with the Everglades being connected to saltwater, I'm sure that, you know, lots of things make it in there. And here we're a little bit more isolated in that you go to a lake and whatever's in there is in there. You know, there's not, there's not things coming and going and there's generally a limited number of species, a handful maybe, in some of the bigger lakes. But that would be very exciting to go there and, you know, not necessarily know what you're gonna catch. And if you do catch something, not even know what it is.
John
I didn't even mention the there are quite a few exotic species there now. Mayan cichlids you catch those in the brackish areas. They look, the closest thing I can relate them to if you've never seen one before is a sunfish, but they're much more brilliantly colored. They have a big eye spot on their tail like a redfish does. You could catch largemouth bass in the brackish areas.
Katie
Okay I didn't know they could tolerate any amount of salt.
John
I'm not sure how much they can tolerate but I know they catch them in tidal areas all up the East Coast.
Katie
And so why are the why are the fly fishermen targeting those handful of species you mentioned? I mean, I do hear about those a lot in regards to fly fishing saltwater But is it just that they're kind of the biggest bang for your buck? They they're the largest species and put up a good fight Or is there any other reason that those are the primary ones that are targeted by by fly anglers?
John
I'm gonna turn that question around. Okay carp or cutthroat trout what are you going for?
Katie
Okay fair enough. I just wasn't sure what else you had there so it's I was wondering what what set those species apart?
John
There is an angling and I don't know why this is true but I know that it is true and it as much as I really don't like it I fall into the same trap. There is a hierarchy of desirability amongst fishes. Fishermen to use the cutthroat trout and the carp I question. Why would you rather catch a trout than a carp? Carp get way bigger. In many places they're more difficult to get a bite. You know, they're more challenging. They're certainly not as pretty as a trout. And I don't know why that is, but I would rather catch a tarpon than any other kind of fish.
Katie
Now I do have to clarify that if I right now could only catch a carp or a cutthroat, I would choose the carp because I haven't landed a carp before but I have caught hundreds of cutthroats but if I could only choose which one would be here in Colorado I would choose the cutthroat. They're not necessarily the same the same answer to the question but I can I can definitely see your point in what you're getting at here with with why you'd want to catch a tarpon.
John
Now that having been said I want to get a bite and if there's no tarpon there I'll fish for other things.
Katie
Fair enough.
John
I might plan my trip so that it passes a place where I strongly suspect that I'll run into some tarpon.
Katie
But you're not gonna turn down anything that's willing to take your fly.
John
Do you know the fish called Jack Crevalle?
Katie
I've heard of it. I've never seen one or fished for them.
John
People talk about trash fish. Like I hate that term, but a Jack Crevalle is often referred to in Florida as a trash fish. They are so awesome. I mean, I have written odes about Jack Crevalle. They're aggressive, they'll take any kind of an artificial, they fight unbelievably hard. The only thing about their fight that could be improved is they could jump out of the water, which they never ever do for any reason. They look a lot like a permit and they're related in taxonomy. They're not very distant from a permit. The people, fly fishers particularly, exalt the permit. You know, you say permit, you genuflect and jackrabbit or a trash fish. I don't get it.
Katie
That's really interesting that you mentioned that because I feel like everything you just said is exactly the situation we have out here with mountain whitefish, which you said your Jack Crevallei are related to permit. They look kind of like a permit, but they're considered trash despite the fact that permit are the creme de la creme of fly fishing saltwater. And here, everyone extols the virtues of trout. And we have the mountain whitefish, which is native. So it's not in the same realm as something like a carp, which could be considered a trash fish, but with the reasoning being they're not really supposed to be here, that they're kind of ugly compared to some of the other fish. Mountain whitefish are native. They are also related to trout. I love them because they put up a way better fight than trout. I would rather catch a mountain whitefish any day than a trout. People hate them, and I have no idea why.
John
It's just the attitude.
Katie
I mean, that must be it. Maybe it's because they're kind of a grayish tan color instead of set of brightly colored I don't know how your fish stack up in terms of color but I agree that I've never really understood that trash fish mentality I'll take whatever will bite my line but especially if it's something that's a native fish.
John
All I have been said I really dislike catfish.
Katie
Why is that?
John
I've been they have spines so if you catch them and you handle them you might get stuck and I've been stuck three times the first time I had to go to the hospital to get it out. It's painful, you know?
Katie
Now I know some of the smaller catfish that I'm familiar with, I don't know if they're true catfish or if they're just related, but like madtoms are actually venomous in their spines. Are catfish as well or are catfish just a painful stab, kind of like if you handle a bluegill or a bass and you grab the dorsal fin wrong, you might get a jab in the hand?
John
Catfish spines are barbed like bee stings or porcupine quills.
Katie
Oh, okay.
John
So they're hard to get out. A little bit worse. and they have all that slime, which is full of bacteria. It's a puncture wound, so it gets infected easily. I know I got stuck the second time. In the same place, I got stuck the first time, but I was in a boat with four other people, and I cut the spine off the catfish, and I gave one of the other guys in the boat my pliers, and he said, "Just pull it out. "I'm gonna look the other way." So we pulled it out, and then, have you had a toothache ever?
Katie
I did, well, I don't know if it was a true toothache. got a reverse, what's it called, when you're when you're diving and you get a like a blocked nasal passage and it it happened above my tooth. So it definitely felt like a toothache even if it wasn't a true toothache but it brought me to tears.
John
This thing went all the way up to my shoulder from my bird finger in my right hand.
Katie
So is there a spine in the dorsal fin? Or is it?
John
The dorsals, there's a dorsal spine and two pectorals.
Katie
Okay.
Katie
Are the catfish in this brackish water or is this a freshwater only issue?
John
Catfish have more species than any other fish family. They're found in lots of different types of environments. In Florida there are two species in salt water. There's the hardhead cat, which is the one I'm talking about specifically. There's a gaff top sail cat, which we usually call sail cats, that are a little more sporting, although even slimier. So we got two in salt water that you can catch them any place in the ocean, in the Gulf. And you will occasionally catch them on flies.
Katie
Yeah, I've seen, I think I've seen one or two catfish caught on flies. I've never caught one on a fly, but I've seen it happen. And it seems fairly unlikely compared to how people usually target them with the smelly, smelly baits on a hook on the bottom. I'm not really sure what gets them to take a fly, but I guess it's just anything can happen if you do it long enough.
John
Channel cat is pretty aggressive. They will take flies sometimes. I've caught several in the St. Johns River.
Katie
Now, going back to Everglades fishing, I know you mentioned when you sent over that post and the pictures you sent that you are mostly in a kayak. Is that pretty standard? Are boats in general standard? there any way to fish the Everglades without some sort of watercraft?
John
No. You at least need a watercraft to get to a place you can wade.
Katie
Okay.
John
The Everglades for an angler has two ends that are 100 miles apart. The north end is at Everglades City Chukawuskie. There is a National Park Service visitor center there. Right behind the visitor center is a boat ramp for paddled vessels only. down the road five miles or so, there's a boat ramp for motorized vessels. And the Everglades used heavily by motorboats. So at the south end access is, you have to go through Miami, to the end of the Florida Turnpike. There's a city there called Everglades City, and from Everglades City to Flamingo, which is where the boat ramp is, it takes you about an hour's Drive. And there there's a campground, there's a visitor center. They used to have a motel there. It got flooded out a couple times in hurricanes. So now they've put some new kind of structures in there that they rent out to people that don't want a tent. But if you were interested in camping, you could do it there, which you cannot do up at the other end.
Katie
Oh, interesting. So there is land out there that you can just throw up a tent on and boat to it, I assume?
John
Yes, so like I mentioned earlier, we took a 13 day trip in canoes. That trip was in canoes. It's hard to take a 13 day trip in kayaks. You don't have enough carrying capacity and you have to carry all your water. It's heavy and takes a lot of room. They have, there are beaches, you can camp on the beach. In the back country, where it's all mangroves and water, there were no beaches there. So they have built structures they call chickies. The Seminole Indians used to build chickies when they were on the run from the US Army during the Seminole Wars. They made them out of wooden branches and thatched it with palm leaves. These structures in the Everglades are pressure treated wood stunk into the bottom with a wood frame roof. They're wooden platforms on the water for campers.
Katie
Do you need a tent to stay in one or is it pretty much fully enclosed and you just do you rent it out? Is it first come first serve?
John
Strictly speaking, you don't need a tent. The biting insects, you need a tent. I mean, you'll get eaten alive without one. They don't have sides. These things just have a roof, and they're open. So I have camped on them and didn't put the fly in my tent because, well, I got this roof over me. But when the rain comes in sideways, that roof doesn't help you at all. You have to get a permit to camp in the Everglades from the National Park Service, which is $20. And then it's $2 a night per person. I forget the fee. There is a fee every night. When I first started going there, they would first come and first serve. Now you have to make a reservation and you have to make it in person. When you're planning your trip, you plan alternate routes so that if you can't get to the spot you want to stay at because someone's already there, you got another idea you can take. It saves a huge amount of time.
Katie
You mentioned that you can't wade there unless you use a boat to get Is it, are you referencing the fact that you can boat into land and then wade in there? Or does it just get shallow enough that you can basically hop out of your boat and walk around? I know you mentioned that it's relatively shallow through a lot of it. How's the wading situation once you boat into that?
John
If you don't mind wading through hip deep mud, you can wade in a lot of those places. But I find wading in hip deep mud very, very difficult. And if you get stuck on an incoming tide, it could get ugly. So the boat, you pretty much need to fish from a boat if you're fishing around flamingo, because there's no wadeable places there. The bottom's all soft. When you get up to the other end, though, at Chukaluski, there's lots of oysters. There are the beaches, and those types of places you can wade. If you're paddling, your paddle tells you, you know, you stick it in the bottom and see how hard it is. If a big ploof of mud comes up, it's not the place. And if you're in a skiff, you gotta push poles. You can only tell how hard the bottom is.
Katie
Oh, okay, yeah, that makes sense. So I remember when you shared that post, I think it was in that that you mentioned, don't worry about the reptiles. Is that a concern for people? Are there a lot of alligators around? Is that anything to keep in mind when you're fishing or is that a non-issue?
John
There are alligators, there are American crocodiles. And now there's pythons.
Katie
Oh yeah, I've heard about that.
John
I haven't seen one myself, but I have a friend who's seen two. You know, Katie, it's like out West. Are you going to worry about the grizzly bears? You know they're there. The most dangerous thing any of us do, and we all do it without thinking twice about it, is we get in a car and we drive.
Katie
I knew that's what you were going to come up with.
John
It's by far the most risky thing we do. We don't ever think twice about it. But an alligator might bite you. Oh my God, I'm not doing that.
Katie
Right. thinking in the same line we don't have grizzly bears here but it was a concern we were up in Montana but it it was something that was on our mind but it didn't stop us from doing what we wanted to do I don't know if maybe the alligators would fall into that same category of I'm still gonna go fishing I'm not gonna let it affect my day but it's is it still on your mind when you're out there or is it is it completely overblown by whatever alligator media out there is is pushing the fact that these things are our man eaters just out to get anyone they see.
John
Most of the time when alligators, let's say attack people, because I can't find the other word I want. There's a couple of different situations this typically happens. The alligator is living in a residential area because there's water all over Florida. I mean, they dug canals to make waterfront property. People start feeding them. So if an alligator associates people with food and the people don't come up with the food, they might become food.
Katie
So pretty much the same as a problem bear here.
John
Exactly. Or people wrote, they've used chemicals to alter reality and they're out at night and say, "Let's go swimming." That is a really stupid thing to do because that's when alligators feed is at night. You don't go out in a lake and splash around because he had a few too many beers and maybe boat a couple doobies you know it's still a bad idea.
Katie
So basically operate with common sense and there's nothing really to worry about.
John
I've been fishing here since 1984 I've never had a problem. The other thing I get from a lot of time from people at West too, "You ever use belly boats here?" Hell no. That's not a good idea either for obvious reasons.
Katie
You know I'm glad you mentioned that because I was thinking okay well if you know if boats are necessary I'm used to using a belly boat maybe that would be good so I'm glad I didn't ask that and make a fool of myself.
John
Because if you're in salt water it's not just gators now you got to worry about sharks.
Katie
Oh yeah I mean is that do you encounter those a lot?
John
Oh my god if you don't see sharks you're not gonna see anything else. It all works together. When you're out there and you've asked me about what are you looking for kind of thing you want to see stuff you want to see lots of mullet you want to see lots of little minnows you want to see sharks you want to see birds diving, you want to see life. Believe me, that's where the fish are. If you go out in a place that looks awesome, but it's dead, the chance of catching any fish there isn't very good.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that's pretty universal. I feel like life attracts life.
John
Exactly.
Katie
If one thing doesn't want to be there, likely nothing else wants to be there either.
John
Everyone's looking for groceries.
Katie
Now, what kind of gear are you using, apart from the boat, in terms of rod weights, line types, things like that. I know you said for the bass in freshwater, you're using mostly floating lines, things like that, and maybe floating flies too, just because of the submerged logs and things. But when you're targeting some of these other species like tarpon and redfish and snook and things like that, what kind of gear are you using?
John
The last trip I took down there was in November. I went down with my buddy, Mike, who brought his dog. It's a service dog, because the park doesn't allow pets out there, but this is service dogs. We went kayaking to the Gulf. It was not an epic, we're gonna do 80 miles trip. We went out to an island that was five miles out. We camped there. We stayed there four or five nights. We came back. I brought a spin rod, which I didn't use very much. And I brought a six weight. Six weight had a floating line on it. I'm not a fan of sinking lines and I'm fishing in shallow water, so I don't really need one. Now that having been said, I would tell most people to bring an eight weight because I know how to cast and I know how to fight fish and I've done all this stuff. The chance of hooking a big fish that the six weight couldn't handle is real. So you know if I hooked a big fish I'd be undergone. But most of the fish you can handle with a six weight.
Katie
And how about the flies? I know you know a lot of the time the the rod is you know for matching the fish but a lot of the other times it's it's basically just matching the fly that you're trying to cast. What kind of flies are you using for these fish?
John
You imitate shrimp. You need a few that imitate crabs. You need some attractor style flies that don't imitate anything. The gurgler I mentioned earlier would fall in that category. A spoon fly. I don't often use spoon flies because I don't make them. I hate working with epoxy. But they're not a bad thing to have. Most of my flies are like number four. A big one would be number two. I have, I get a this idea that I'm gonna throw a big fly for snook but I want it to be synthetic so that sheds water so I can throw it with a small rod.
Katie
Now are you mostly sight fishing for these fish?
John
I sight fish whenever I can. At high tide it's very hard to do especially from a kayak because you're so low to the water. Sometimes at high tide I just go take a nap. So my kayak I have an ocean kayak drifter which they haven't made them in quite a while I bought in 2003. I can stand up in it so if it's not windy and is not a strong current I can stand up and look for fish in that.
Katie
Get a little better view from up there I'm sure.
John
Yeah if there's a lot of fish around I don't need to do that if the water shallow because I can see them. Kayaks are very stealthy. I catch fish in the kayak with the leader in the tip of the rod. I just got two yesterday like the fish is right next to me but it didn't know I was there so.
Katie
Yeah I grew up fishing obviously not saltwater fish like you are, but I grew up fishing in a kayak for smallmouth bass and I always appreciated that too, that as long as you set the paddle down and don't risk like banging that up against the boat itself, you can paddle right over things and they do not care that you're there.
John
My kayak's bright yellow. I know everyone wants a camo kayak because they're cool. I ran a skiff as a fishing guide for a long time. I hated camo kayaks. Early in morning when the lights bad you can't see him and I don't want to get run over by a guy in a motorboat I got a bright yellow kayak look at me I'm right here so the fishermen are worried that the fish are gonna see them but I'm telling you right now they don't care I catch it happens all the time the leader the end of the leader is in the tip of the rod the fish is like 12-14 feet away they eat the flight without any hesitation
Katie
Well and you can't fish anyway if you get run over by a boat so I think I think it may be worth weighing that weighing the pros and cons there and just saying, "I don't care if the fish see this, even if they do care."
John
Well, the types of places I like to fish, motorboats aren't usually an issue anyway, but it's the sweat equity again. There are ponds down at Flamingo where they don't allow motorboats. So when I fish there, I always go back in those ponds. Now, the fish, moving in and out of them. So in the ponds, they're not little ponds, they're quite large. So if you go in there, you can spend a whole day there and not see anything, but that's the risk you take when you go fishing anywhere around here. Birds have wings and they go from place to place. Fish have fins and they go from place to place. So if you're starting cold, like when I used to go to the Everglades, it would take me sometimes two, three days to figure out what was going on before I really started to do well. So if you go for two days, you might not have time to figure it out.
Katie
Yeah, so that actually brings me to my next question, which is, and this might be kind of a silly question for anyone who has experience on saltwater, and forgive me, I'm coming from an experience of only freshwater fishing, but here we're matching the hatch, and you're trying to figure out at least what's available in the water, and maybe what's coming off of that particular moment. But when you're fishing for these species, and you're throwing crabs and shrimp and fish imitations, is it kind of a trial and error approach? How are you figuring out what it is that you should be throwing that day for whatever it is that you're trying to catch?
John
I wish I could give you a very scientific, well thought out answer. On my rod right now, my six weight, I have a brown slider. It's a little shrimp imitation. It's tied to the number four hook. That fly has been on there for probably two months now. Not the same one because they wore out. I broke one off yesterday. Leadering the fish, I don't carry a net. I just grabbed him with my hand, so I gotta grab the leader and pull him in. When I did that, I broke at the knot. You are used to trout in particular being very fussy about what they will and will not eat. Our fish tend to eat anything that's easy. Am I making sense?
Katie
Yeah, yeah, no, that's kinda how I remember bass fishing at times being, is you put it in front of their face.
John
They will sometimes become selective, But most of the time, if you throw it in front of them and make it easy for them to take it, they will. It's like people ask me-
Katie
So you're using-
John
Oh, go ahead.
Katie
Oh, I was just gonna say, so you're using imitations of things that they know they like to eat, but it's not necessarily choosing the exact pattern that you need for that exact moment on that exact day. It's giving them something they know they like and making it available to them and making it an easy choice for them to wanna eat it versus passing it up.
John
Yeah, and there's a lot of gut feeling that goes on too. I mean, I've been doing this a long time. How much current is there? How high is the water? How murky is it? Some kind of calculus goes on in my head without any conscious effort going on. And I open my fly box and pick the magic wand. And sometimes I'm actually right, you know? And if not, I throw it to 30 minutes and change.
Katie
You know, that's the thing across the board too. You know, regardless of how much people insist you need to match the hatch for trout. At the end of the day sometimes you just open it up and you see a fly that you just want to fish and it doesn't really matter whether it's what's hatching or not. Sometimes that works just as well as whatever would be the technically correct fly to choose. Sometimes something just feels right or sometimes you have a favorite fly just for no reason in particular just feels like the one. Those are my favorite days though is when you've, I don't know, you've just had some sort of intuition and it works out.
John
Fishing here at least, I think that colors and patterns and all that stuff, way more important to the fishermen than the fish. I'm going to relate it to spin fishing with my friend Mike, 'cause Mike very rarely fly fishes. Mike's favorite lure is called the Voodoo Shrimp. It's about three, three and a half inches long. It's got a single hook made out of plastic. If it didn't have a hook in it, you'd think you could bread it up and fry it and eat it yourself, you know? Very realistic looking. I like when I'm spin fishing a little three inch plastic shad. Again, fish with a single hook. I hate lures with gang hooks because why would you use them? One is plenty, you know? Mike and I fish next to each other and we take a trip every year of at least a week when we've been doing that since 2013. So you start to see patterns, you know? There are days Mike out fishes me. There are days I out fish him. And there are days where it doesn't make a difference. In the end, it all comes out in the wash. So when I say, "It doesn't really matter. Just tie on something you have faith in and throw it out there."
Katie
Right, pick something that makes you happy.
John
The fish will let you know.
Katie
Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that can, or the worst thing that can happen is that the fish don't take it and you just change flies. It's not like you have to marry a fly and use it for the rest of your life.
John
They have a fishing tournament here called the Two Fly, which I haven't, I mean, I'm not a tournament fisherman. I don't get it, but the Two Fly, At the start of the tournament, you get an envelope. You don't get to choose the flies. You get an envelope. An envelope are two flies.
Katie
How interesting.
John
You get to use that day.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like I've heard of the one, I feel like I've heard of like a one fly tournament, but I think you get to choose your fly. And I haven't heard of this one where they basically assign you flies.
John
Yeah, they just give you an envelope. I don't think, I think it's completely random. The envelopes aren't marked in any way, I don't believe. They just hand you one and that's what you get.
Katie
The last topic I wanted to ask you about, and this is another thing I know you mentioned in the post you sent over to me, but is how to, if someone wants to come to Florida and pull this off, is there a quick summary of how to kind of organize a trip to the Everglades? Places to rent things and what you might need to do a trip there yourself?
John
This would be a great time to plug my book, "Fishing the Everglades," but it's been out of print.
Katie
Oh, yeah, please do.
John
It's been out of print for a long time. That was the first book I ever wrote. It was called "Fishing the Everglades," a guide for the small boater. It was about taking trips in the Everglades and going fishing. It was not limited to fly fishing, it was fishing. It even had bait selection. There are outfitters. Obviously, if you were coming from Colorado, unless you had a canoe and all the paddle stuff, a canoe or a kayak, whatever type of vessel you preferred, you have to obtain that somehow. you go to an outfitter, they have all the stuff, they give you everything you need but your fish and tackle and off you go. You have to go to the National Park Service website, there's a trip planner on there to show you where all the campsites are, what the distances between them are. You know, there are days when 10 miles goes easy and there are days when 10 miles is an all-day struggle. When you're making your plan, you need to keep that in mind. If you're going against the the wind and the tide, 10 miles is a really long way. If you're young and healthy and strong, then you can be quite ambitious in your plan. If you are hesitant about your skills and abilities to pull something like this off, take a small loop trip. Out of Chukowluski, the nearest campsite is four or five miles away. and there are several at approximately that distance. You can make a lovely loop trip there, take a week, you know, camp on this key, camp on this key, camp on this key, go back, try a pond.
Katie
It's kind of a build your own adventure, it sounds like. You can be as ambitious or as reserved as you want and kind of cater it to your abilities and what you're looking for.
John
Exactly. People go down here and take trips, they don't even bring fishing tackle. That's how crazy they are. (laughing)
Katie
That's how I feel about people who like 15 miles into lakes here and I'm like, you know, there's probably fish in there who've never never seen a fly before, right?
John
The first trip I took in the Everglades, we it took us three or four days to get to this chickie. And at the time, it was first come first serve, they didn't have a reservation system back then. There wasn't enough use to justify it, you know. So we got there. It's like, this is awesome. We get this place all to ourselves. So a couple hours later, we hear this annoying little internal combustion noise, you know, it was another couple in a little blow up thing like a Zodiac with a little outboard on it. They had flown down in their own airplane from Michigan, rented a car, drove to Flamingo, put their little Zodiac in the water, moated out, as it turned out right to where we were. And suddenly, it was a crowd on this chickie, because was a single platform and we didn't know these people from all the ground right?
Katie
Oh so they're coming to the same chickie not just in the same area but they're planning to stay there
John
they're staying on the same chickie then I'm not done right at dusk two guys come in a canoe and there is no room for them at all so they get up on the roof of the chickie which I might add is a pretty good slope with no tent and that's where they spent the night and the bugs were really bad that night so it must have been torture up there. But those two guys were paddling from Chokoloskee to Flamingo, which is 100 miles, in six days, which meant at first light they got up, wolfed down some breakfast, packed their stuff up, jumped in the boat, paddled all day till it was getting dark, and stopped and ate supper and slept in the bugs and repeat the next day. that's not my idea of fun. You go home and say, "Yeah, I took a canoe trip in the Everglades. We hated it." What's the point, you know?
Katie
Well, that's something I didn't even think about is the fact that, at least out here, I know I keep comparing this to where I am, but that's the reference I have, is that if you plan to camp somewhere and you show up and someone's camping there, you just walk until you find a new camp spot. But out there, if you plan to camp in one of those shakies and you show up and someone's there, it's not like you can just set up camp 50 feet away in the middle of the water and sleep there. You kind of have to, you know, if the sun's going down, you got to kind of camp there. So you're kind of putting all your eggs in one basket. I guess I don't know how spread out they are, but I assume that they're not all stacked on top of one another and that if you show up to one, it might be the only one in that area.
John
That's why there's a reservation system now.
Katie
Ah, okay.
John
And something, like now a lot of them are doubles too. Back in 1980, They weren't any doubles. They were all single ones. But now they have double ones and you can fit in the platforms themselves are larger. So you might, if you're friends, you might be able to fit six people on one platform and six people on the other platform. And that's a fairly large group. The largest, I prefer going down there without only one other person just makes everything easier. Or I take a lot of solo trips.
Katie
Yeah. I feel like in general, the fewer people, the easier every trip is.
John
It's just it takes so long to get going and there's so much inertia involved in whatever you're doing. Once you get started it's hard to stop. You have to discuss everything at length. You can't just make a decision and do it, you know.
Katie
Yeah, I take very few trips with more than maybe three people, three or four people, because that's about the maximum number I want to debate with about what we should be doing at any given moment.
John
Are you able to fish by yourself or do you have to concern yourself with personal safety?
Katie
Uh, no, I fish for myself quite a bit. Um, I probably do two or three solo trips, uh, like like backpacking trips every year and I do a lot of just day fishing by myself
John
You carry a gun?
Katie
No, not usually.
John
You just don't run into dirt bags, huh?
Katie
I just try to get far enough away from people that it's not a big deal
John
You're lucky
Katie
It’s a pretty non-issue for me.
John
I don't know if I'm a woman, I don't know if I’d do that anywhere in Florida, but I'm not a woman, so.
Katie
Well, do you wanna just finish up by maybe plugging some of your books? I know you mentioned a couple books that you had written and you had one that was more recent out, if you wanted to just share what those are and what they're about.
John
My most recent book that your listeners might be interested in is called "Fishing Florida by Paddle." is published by the History Press. So there's some history in there, because that was one of their stipulations. History is a good thing. When you go to a place, it's nice to know that there were bird plume hunters shooting birds there that you're so excited to see 100 years ago, because they made a ton of money selling the feathers. It's not limited to the Everglades. It covers the whole state of Florida, except for the Keys, because the publisher, all that he a book about the keys, paddling in the keys, so they didn't need my input on that. So when I researched that book, I fished from Pensacola to Jacksonville to Everglades National Park, both coasts. It's not limited to fly fishing and also spin fishing, although I left the bait home. It's strictly artificial. I already said I hate artificials with gang hooks, single hook artificials. It tells you the fish we got here. It tells you that I like sweat equity. In Florida, there's all kinds of places you can fish. You can fish in seawalls. You can fish under bridges. You can fish in spillways. All those places are valid places to fish. I don't like to fish in those kinds of places, so they're not in my book. Get in the boat, paddle for 10 miles and that's where you start fishing. Because it's like exactly what you said with hiking. The farther you get away from the road, the better the fishing gets. I thought it was a good book. I've had nothing but good things said about it. You can get it on Amazon. If you like it, please put a review on there. There's only one on there. It's positive, but more, it's better. This is America.
Katie
Sounds good. I hope people will check it out and maybe I'll get a copy and maybe that'll inspire me to come down and check it out. Because like I said, the Everglades are on my list, but I haven't made it down there yet. And maybe having a little bit more knowledge about where I'm going will inspire me to finally buy the ticket and make it down there.
John
If you, you're going to have to do two things here. You're going to have to send me a snail mail address and you're gonna have to put the chemistry book down I will mail you one
Katie
Ph well don't worry I it won't be hard for me to put the chemistry book down it's it's gonna be an online textbook anyway so I won't even have anything to put down but it'll give me a good excuse to not not think about chemistry for a couple a couple minutes at a time at least. all right John well do you just want to… I don't know if you have a website or social media that you want to plug but now now is a great time to do that if you have anywhere else you to send people, otherwise we can wrap it up.
John
On Instagram I'm @spottedtailflyfish. I post pretty much every day. My old guiding website, which is still up but not pushing fishing trips, is spottedtail.com. I used to, in the interest of search engine optimization, I would publish informational articles about fishing in Florida to attract traffic to my website. And I left all that stuff up there because it's a, it's a, uh, civic resource, you know, if, if you will. So you can go to spot a tail and see free fishing, Florida fishing information. And there's all kinds of articles there that are all free. Just read them and dream if you're up to your your buttons know right now. I also have another website called JohnKomiskey.com, which was very clever. It has all my writing stuff and photography stuff and a mishmash of stuff. That's all I'm trying to plug. I don't really have anything to sell.
Katie
No worries. Well, this has been super fun. I know you're not full on offshore fishing, this has been the first saltwater related podcast I've done. So thanks so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge because I'm pretty excited to try to get to Florida at some point now to give that a try.
John
Thanks for taking the time and it was fun sharing this with all these people.
Katie
Sure, anytime.
John
Don't forget to send me your email address, not your email address, your snail mail address.
Katie
Will do. Alright, thanks John.
John
Thank you.
Katie
Alright guys, thanks for listening. Remember to head over to the website fishuntamed.com for all episodes, show notes, blog posts, everything else. If you've got a minute or two, leave a rating or review on iTunes. And if you're looking for me on social media, you can find me @fishuntamed on Instagram or under my name Katie Burgert on GoWild. And that's all for this week, but I'll be back here in two weeks and I'll see you guys then. Bye everybody!
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