Ep 43: The Art of Bamboo, with Derek Sheehan and Ron Barch
Derek Sheehan and Ron Barch are Michigan-based bamboo rodbuilders. After years of playing around with the idea of building his first bamboo rod, Derek reached out to a forum for help, where he ended up being connected with Ron, who took him under his wing. Ron has made hundreds of bamboo rods, including some he designed himself. In this episode, Derek and Ron break down the process for me. We start with an overview of how bamboo rods compare to glass and graphite, how lengths and tapers matter, and why bamboo is such a precise art. Then we move on to the nitty-gritty of what goes into the building process, including splitting, planing, straightening, and more. If you’ve ever had an interest in the art of bamboo, this is your episode.
Ron’s website: www.aldercreekangling.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. All right, welcome to episode number 43 of the Fish Untamed podcast. This episode is a deep dive into the art of bamboo rod building. And it was originally supposed to be just me and Derek Sheehan. But last minute, he told me that he actually roped in his mentor who taught him to build fly rods, Ron Barch. So I actually had both guests on at the same time in this episode. and they just walked me through every aspect of bamboo rod building from a stalk of bamboo to a finished fly rod. And I was just blown away by their ability to walk me through such a complicated process over our call. So I'll go ahead and wrap things up there, but we can hop right over to my chat with Derek and Ron. Well, if you guys are ready to get started, we can dive right in. I'd love to hear how, I guess, both of you met each other and how you both got into bamboo. I know you said that Ron kind of started you on your journey, Derek, but how'd you get your start, Ron? And how'd you guys meet each other?
Derek
Well, I called him. And so I have been building fly rods, graphite fly rods, and fiberglass since the nineties. And so I got about a dozen of them back there. And when I was living in Montana as a graduate student, so I went to Montana State University in Bozeman. It's a terrible place to live for six years. Um, especially if you're a fly fisherman. Oh my God. That's what I hear. But anyway, so I was building these fly rods and somehow I, I, I got to finding about bamboo and I never really grew up with bamboo. Um, you know, I always started off on, on graphite or, or, or, probably more fiberglass when my dad buy me a cheapo you know I remember having a convertible was a Fenwick or I don't know you could make it a spinning reel or a spinning rod or a fly rod that was a Fenwick yeah and anyway now I used that for years but anyway so I was building these fly rods and about every it's funny about every five years I would look up how to make bamboo fly rods and then I would say oh god that's way too much and and then but I found that there was classes in Montana or in Michigan could take, you know, and you could take a week of vacation and show up in these places and you could build a rod in a week. And I never had the time. And that was back when I had, I had no, you know, no, no money or no time to do either one of those. And so, so anyway, I had this kind of recurring five-year, I don't know, dream, I guess, you know, this idea that I build a fly rod And the last occurrence was last November. And I found a different, I just didn't find it the first time, but I found this forum online called Classic Fly Fishing or Classic Rod Makers. It's a list server, a forum. And I got on there as a new guy. I logged in and I got an account and I said, hey, new guy in Kalamazoo, you know, interested in bamboo fly rods. and this guy hit me right back said oh call Ron Barch in in Hastings and Hastings is 45 minutes from here and so I did I called up Ron and he said well yeah can you build a rod would he laid out the the deal and I went up to his shop and what took about three weeks it's three or four weeks three or four weeks and six visits had a fly rod and so I go up to Ron's shop and and in after work and My kids are older, so I can get, I could do this. And we did all the steps. And then Ron would show me the, you know, like each piece of a, like the tip section of a fly rod has six pieces of bamboo. So once you learn how to make one, then you got to make five more. I just identical to it. So Ron would show me how to make one. And then I go home, I'd bring all this stuff home and I'd make five more. And then I'd go up back to Hastings when I was ready for the next step. And so that's how we built this fly rod with me going back and forth. And actually I didn't tell Ron at the time, but I was building two and I built another one kind of behind it about two steps behind where we were. So, so when I got done with Ron, I actually had two rods.
Katie
That's probably a good way to do it to kind of hammer in the, in the knowledge that you're learning to, to do both at once.
Derek
You know, and there's a lot of muscle memory you have to learn because you have to keep the tools really, you know, parallel. And, and now it's all, it's 90% hand tools. I mean, there's one step that you use a, Ron taught me how to use a power, beveler, but that's just a rough bevel. But from then on, it's all, it's all by hand. So, anyway, that was November and then it's just, yeah, kind of snowballed. Now I got planing forms into my basement and I got bamboo combs on the wall that are ready to be turned into fly rods and fly rods in progress. And yeah.
Katie
So I'm going to warn you now that I'm probably going to ask a lot of really stupid questions today because I've never, I've never even handled a bamboo rod. But I'm going to start with kind of a 30,000 foot view of just like bamboo versus before we get into the, into the actual nitty gritty of what goes into making one. What is like good comparison between bamboo and let's say graphite or fiberglass? I associate it more with fiberglass just because of kind of the slower action. But I'm sure there's still a lot of differences, especially for somebody who's more experienced using a bamboo rod between that and glass. But what's a good overview of bamboo compared to some of the other popular materials out there?
Ron
The reason you want to use a bamboo fly rod is you catch bigger fish on lighter cliffs. And I can prove that physically. When do you lose a fish? You usually lose a fish on the hook set when he comes up and smashes the fly and you go to set the hook and he snaps you right off. The reason for that is graphite and fiberglass to some extent is much too fast and it wears out the fine tippet. So when we used to spend 59 cents for a liter, now we're spending $10 for a liter because they have to keep making them stronger and stronger because the fast graphite rods, wear them up. Lefty Cray told me, and he showed me how, that a good angler can snap a fly off. And that's what happens. So on the hook set, the cane, it's not softer, it's more forgiving. So you set the hook and the fish shakes his head and he doesn't break off as often. The other reason, especially for guys my age, is casting a bamboo fly rod is easier on our shoulder and elbow because it flexes just like a tree. Like those Colorado aspens in a windstorm, the way they flex while the elk are running away, a cane rod does the same thing. Now, the other thing that's nice about cane or split bamboo is that you can design a taper any way you want. If you want it fast, short, medium, long, for brook trout, for steelhead, for salmon, carp. I know guys that go carp fishing with dry flies and a cane rod. Well, Hemingway used to catch tuna on bamboo.
Derek
That's right. I mean, they're strong.
Ron
The other reason that I like a split bamboo fly rod in terms of investment, you buy a graphite or a fiberglass rod and the next day it's worth half as much. You buy a good cane rod from a good rod maker and the next day it's worth a little more. It's a long-term investment.
Katie
Gets better with age.
Ron
You got it.
Derek
We were just measuring a rod that a friend of mine inherited from his uncle that we think is pre-World War II. Yeah, probably made in the late 30s. And you could take it out and fish it today if you want to. We could string it up right as it sits and go fish it.
Katie
Yeah, that's actually something I was wondering is I, and I'm not too familiar with how graphite and fiberglass, but graphite in particular has progressed over the years. But I would assume that bamboo rods are still probably being made in a very similar way. I mean, it's the same material as it's always been, I assume. So, you know, whereas if you were to grab a graphite rod from back when they were first invented, would you notice a bigger difference between a graphite rod of that age and a modern day graphite rod versus a bamboo, an old bamboo rod and a newer bamboo rod? Like, are they fairly similar? Has the technology progressed that much in bamboo or is it is it pretty much the same as it's always been?
Ron
No, and some people may take offense at this, but after I've looked at a few thousand rods from pre-1900 to what we're making today, the rods that we're making today are better than the classics because we have better glues, adhesives, better varnishes. The cane is really, really good. The Orvis company used to use a lot of their cane to stoke the fire with. They might order 100 sticks of cane and get to use 10. Now if I order 100 sticks of cane, I get to use 98 of them. Things are much better today. The nickel silver hardware that we have, the guides, the real seats, they're all just a cut above. I'm trying to think of the fella that makes rods in Denver. His name will come to me. There's a guy that makes absolutely wonderful fly rods in the Denver area.
Derek
This guy in Longmont or in Loveland that makes fly rods too.
Ron
Yeah, there's that guy. But his rods are just out of this world, top notch. And he's a neat guy because he helps people make fly rods. So, you know, look online, check around the Denver area. There's some really good fly rod.
Derek
Maybe in a month you'll be fishing your own bamboo fly rod if you go down that road. Watch out.
Katie
I've got to save up first.
Ron
You look me up, and I'll have a sweetheart for you.
Katie
So that actually brings me to one of my other questions. It's kind of just a random one I wanted to throw in here before I forget. In terms of, I know bamboo rods are usually quite an investment, but if you break a tip on a bamboo rod, I guess maybe I should start off somewhere else. If you break a tip on a graphite rod, you can just buy the blank that matches that rod. For bamboo, are you able to match it to your rod?
Ron
I just make a new section and glue it on, scarf it on, and I cover it with white silk. And when I varnish the white silk, nobody can see the replacement part.
Katie
Okay, so you can effectively make a new tip for a bamboo rod. It's not like you have to have all the pieces coming from the same stock and fit it together just right or anything like that.
Ron
It depends on the craftsman. Exactly. And I wish I was, there is a group in North America, there's about a dozen of them who just know stuff that I don't know. And I got involved in this in about 1985. And I've been involved in probably 600 rods. I taught a couple hundred people how to make rods. I've worked with women's programs, Project Healing. I've worked with kids. But there's a group of about 10 guys that just know stuff that I don't understand. One of the fellows is out in, I think, Washington State. His name is Bob Clay. He makes these huge bamboo rods and he catches phenomenal salmon and steelhead on them.
Katie
I've heard that name before.
Ron
Bob Clay. He's just, he's top notch. And there's about a dozen guys like that in North America. and they just know stuff. And Jim Reams out in California is another fellow, and he's just the nicest guy in the world, but his rods are worth three grand if they're worth a penny. And they just know something that I haven't learned yet. And one of the nice things, we almost lost the bamboo rod making craft because fiberglass and graphite started taking over after World War II. and it was in about the late 80s, early 1990s, a group of guys out in the British Columbia, Washington area started sharing information. And from that area, I think it's called the Olympic Peninsula. Ron Gould and those guys. Yeah, I got to meet some of those guys and I helped start a newsletter and people from all over the world started to share information. and that the newsletter was called the planing form and we were able to save the craft and now there's rod making gatherings all over the world and we're making really really good rods and I still use my first rod that I made and I completed my first rod that I could put my name on in 1990 and I still use it and I've made extra tips for it because I got clumsy and broke one but yeah That's the nice thing. You break a graphite rod and you're stuck. But if you break a bamboo rod, you can replace it, you can repair it.
Katie
Okay. So I know you guys mentioned the tapers and one of the nice things being that you can kind of customize that taper to what you're looking for. I assume what you're referencing here is just that if you're building, I guess maybe assembling is the right word for building a normal rod, putting it together, you're kind of stuck with the blanks you get. I mean, you could probably shop around and get different blanks, but you're kind of stuck.
Derek
Yeah. They've determined the taper that, that, that rod is right. So when you buy a, an Orvis Helios rod, they've decided that all those Helios rods are going to have this taper and they build a big steel mandrel, you know, set of steel mandrels that they roll the graphite on and they all come out the same. And, and so as you go from maker to maker, you can, the tapers subtly change, right? One guy has a little different way. They go from the butt to the middle to the tip right and that's all going to determine how the rod throws a line is it a tight is it a tight loop and that'd be a fast or is it an open loop and that'd be a little slower does how does it flex does it flex all the way down through the cork or does it just or does the flex start somewhere above your hand most graphite stick flex actually starts above your hand somewhere you know a few inches I don't know how far up but you know I built a rod my first rod I built was one that's actually designed to flex all the way through the handle and when you hand it to someone who's never fished a bamboo fly rod and they're really used to graphite there it's it's very it's it's fun to watch because it's completely different feel but and and you know but it does it has it has power it shoots line like like like it's perfect but it just feels a lot different And, so, so yeah, so when you're built, so when you buy a bamboo or excuse me, a, a, a fiberglass or a, you know, that's why I always tell people to go to a shop and try all the rods because they're all different.
Katie
Right. The taper might just not work with your particular form when you cast.
Derek
Everyone has a, you know, so if everyone's an equal caster, that's a different subject for a different discussion. But, you know, you really can't be a bad caster and be a good connoisseur of fly rods. You've got to learn how to cast so that you can learn the nuances of these different tapers, right? And the nice thing with the bamboo is that today I can set my equipment to make this taper today. and I can reset it and make another completely different taper tomorrow. And then come out, you know, with two, like I just have them right now. I have two seven-footers in progress, and they're going to be very different actions, just night and day. But they're going to throw a four-weight line, and they're both going to do that. But they're just going to feel different. And someone is going to like one more than they like the other. It doesn't mean it's bad. It just means it fits their casting style. Sure.
Ron
Yeah, I'm glad you've done your homework. You're asking all the right questions. Good. You know your stuff.
Katie
I needed to look up a little bit before we started, so I didn't just act like a fish out of water the entire time.
Ron
There's a rod maker from Michigan, Paul Young, who started in Detroit and ended up building rods up in Traverse City, Michigan. And he built a rod just for his wife, whose name was Martha Marie. And it's a classic seven and a half foot, five, six weight. That is a perfect rod for a lady that likes to go out and catch big fish.
Katie
Oh, that sounds just right.
Ron
Yeah, it is. It's a five, six weight, seven and a half. And he designed it just for his wife and he named it the Martha Marie. I built one of those. Yeah. Excellent rod. There's a lady that I know who lives in Aurora, Colorado. It's near you.
Katie
Yeah, yeah, we're pretty close.
Ron
All right. Her name is Judy Miller. Her husband is Dennis Miller. Judy Miller out fishes everybody, all the guys, with her bamboo fly rod. And we fish in Almont, Colorado, on the Taylor River. And she goes out there every day with a cane rod. It takes a 20-inch or better brown trout.
Katie
Yeah, I was going to say that. That river's got some big fish in it.
Ron
Yes, yes. You got to kind of get away from the crowds, though.
Katie
Yeah, you do.
Ron
Get a hold of Judy Miller, look her up in Aurora, and have her tell you about the Taylor River. Go out there and fish it. It's great.
Katie
So when you're using bamboo on some of these larger fish, are you basically choosing the same weight that you would with graphite, or are you changing what weight you'd normally use to target some of these fish?
Ron
It depends on the fish. If I'm fishing fussy fish, I like an eight foot four weight. If I'm fishing salmon or steelhead, I like an eight and a half foot, seven, eight weight.
Derek
Or if you're in a brushy little creek, you're fishing a seven or six and a half or even a six foot rod. What's that cross silf? There's a taper that's a seven foot seven weight. So you can do crazy things with the bamboo.
Ron
Here's another lady's story. I don't mean to patronize you, but the cross sylph, everybody tried to figure out why they would build a seven foot seven weight fly rod in, I think it was England, Scotland, something like that. And they discovered that it was a lady's Atlantic salmon rod, short and powerful because a lady can't handle a great big nine foot heavyweight rod. So this guy designed a 7'7 weight for ladies that go Atlantic salmon fishing.
Katie
Now, is this because bamboo just weighs more for the same length because it's not hollow, like a graphite rod or a glass rod?
Ron
Yeah, but the weight is really not that big of a deal. It has to do with all the kind of hardware you put on it. If you take apart a graphite rod or just weigh all the components before you put it together, and then you weigh all the components for a bamboo rod, it's negligible. The weight of a rod isn't important. What's important is the balance. When you put the reel on, it should balance in your hand.
Katie
Right. I guess I was just wondering because, like, you know, a 9-foot graphite rod is not anything I would describe as heavy, but it sounds like this 7-foot bamboo rod was 7 feet because it was too hard to handle a 9-foot rod. But obviously women don't have a problem handling a 9-foot graphite rod. So there's got to be some difference in why the bamboo needs to be seven feet instead of...
Derek
No, it didn't have to because they're off. So that cross sylph was just a rod that was built because they thought that the woman couldn't handle the larger same bamboo rods that the men were using.
Katie
Oh, not, I mean, obviously this is probably before graphite was invented, but it was an assumption, not an actual... I see.
Derek
A little bit patronizing, but they said, oh, well, you're a woman. We're going to make you this smaller, shorter rod. But they're still fishing salmon. They're still fishing for big fish. And they're still fishing, you know, so it's got to handle, you know, an Atlantic salmon. So they built this really unique rod. I have not cast one yet.
Ron
But, you know, in the longer lengths, graphite has some advantage. There's no doubt about that.
Derek
Yeah, I'm not going to sit here and say that bamboo is the best beat all end all way you should ever do it. I mean, go fishing. You know, I mean, that's all I have to tell anyone, you know, just use whatever you got and enjoy it. You know, but if you get into the if you get into the craft and you get into the hobby, you'll start collecting rods because that's what fishermen do. So, you know, you'll end up with a dozen graphite fly rods because I always used to tell my wife when I was buying them when I shouldn't that, you know, you don't go out hunting with an empty quiver or just one arrow. You've got to have, you know, a full quiver.
Katie
Right, it'd be irresponsible not to.
Ron
So, well, I'm allowed to have as many fly rods as my wife has shoes. There you go. That's going to get me in trouble.
Derek
Yeah, that's okay. That's right. That won't make it to the podcast.
Katie
So why are these rods? Why do these rods tend to be shorter? I hear a lot of like, you guys are talking about like six feet to eight feet. It sounds like.
Derek
You don't need to be.
Ron
Yeah.
Derek
It's just, it doesn't need to be that long.
Ron
It's the feel. When you cast a bamboo fly rod, it's like listening to a classical guitar. Or if you take a wooden classical guitar, you can play all kinds of music on it. Just like a violin. You know, you can play bluegrass on a violin and call it a fiddle, you know, or you can play classical stuff from Europe. It's all in the feel of the rod. And I can't feel modern graphite the way I can feel casting. A lot of times I'll fish at night and you can't see what's going on. It's all about how you feel the cast. Especially in Michigan, when we get our hex hatch, sometimes the fish don't start rising until 11, 1130 at night. And it's pitch dark and you hear them, but you don't see anything. And you have to feel what the rod's doing and feel the line.
Katie
Okay. And are you guys kind of coming up with your own tapers? Or are there like patterns that you're going off of to, you know, are you going in saying, I'd like a rod like this? And you can look up kind of a pattern to get that taper you're looking for? or are you kind of inventing these on the fly as you go?
Ron
There's only one taper that I have designed that I call my own, and my fellow craftsmen will admit that this is my design, and it's called the Barch 88, and I copied it off of that cross silf rod. And I fish a small river, which is heavily wooded out of a drift boat, So it's short casts to big fish. And I fish for smallmouth bass and pike and every once in a while a muskie. And I have to have a short, powerful rod that throws a big fly that handles big fish. And this rod will do that. And it took me years to come up with the design. And I finally thought, well, I'm going to break the rules and design this thing. So that's the only taper that I've designed. Everybody else steals all the other tapers.
Derek
We were, you can take a mic, a set of micrometers and you can measure the taper on a fly rod. We were just doing that. We were just measuring an old Powell rod that a friend of mine got from his uncle just to see what the taper was like. What is, you know, what, how's this rod put together? And, and so I could, now I have the numbers. So I have all my numbers here. Oh yeah, there's my camera. Anyway, and I could set my planing form and I could make that rod, you know, that was made sometime before World War II.
Ron
See, that's the nice thing about being able to custom build fly rods. A friend of mine, John Buccino, that guides on the Taylor River and the East River out there in Almont. I fished with him, oh, three or four years in a row. And then he said, I want a cane rod. Will you build me one? And I watched how he cast and the kinds of flies he used and the water he fished. So I took two or three designs and combined it into an eight foot, five, six weight rod. And he fell in love with it. So if you know what a guy wants, you can build a rod for him.
Katie
Okay. So you're kind of taking the ingredients and putting them together into your rod. You can go out and find the information you're looking for and kind of tweak it as needed or combine it as needed. But you do have something to start with. know, you've got, you've got a template to begin. There's databases that are available out there.
Derek
There's almost, there's several, there's probably a dozen books that are pretty available on rod building and they all have tapers in them. They have tables of different rods in them. And, and like I said, there's online databases that we can use. There's a program that I use called Rod DNA that, that I really like. There's another online program called HexRod, which you can, it's got all kinds of, it's got a huge database of tapers in it. And then you can graph them and you can see what the, so you graph the, the width of the rod versus where it is on the length. It's zero is the tip and you measure from the tip down to the butt. And so you can graph, right. The thickness of that rod and you can see how that slope changes in line, or maybe there's a flat spot or a steep spot. And so you can, you can, you can do a lot of analysis. You can, you know, a lot of these rod makers, it's interesting, are engineers. And Ron was saying that, you know, that the craft was on the verge of going away because no one shares in the old rod making world. Because they had to make their own machines, their own beveling machines by scratch, from scratch to make their rods. So Powell and Edwards and all these old Orvis, Winston, Payne, all these people, when they were making their rods, that was their trade secret was how they made their rods. And they closely guarded their secrets. And there's some books out there that go into history of this. And it's interesting because there is some crosstalk. and this guy worked in this shop and then he moved to that shop and the rods changed and, you know, and all these things. But it was really cloistered into those really, really small, you know, almost family units. And it was only, you know, recently when, when now it's, it's much, it's, it's, it's now the opposite. Everyone, you know, opened the door and just here, make, they'll show you how to, how they do it.
Ron
On my website, aldercreekangling.com, There's a whole series of articles that talk about how rod tapers and designs have changed over time. And there's a series of books in there, back issues of the newsletter that I published. So the information is out there. And because it's a small craft, I think there's probably six to 900 people in the world that know how to make a bamboo fly rod. And that varies from time to time. but the information is out there and most of it is legitimate and if somebody puts something like online that's not valid or true 10 guys will correct that jump jump on it to stop it
Katie
yeah I get the impression that this especially you know when you mentioned that it was almost going to die out there for a little bit that this is something that is is really best taught in person like it the people who would be learning it would be learning it from almost as like an apprentice to somebody who was a master at the craft versus, you know, just picking up a book that's like Bamboo Rod Building 101, you know. Am I correct in that assumption that it was kind of, it had to be passed from person to person and that was what was kind of causing it to die out?
Derek
Well, you would do what I did. You would travel and, you know, apprentice with the master and work in their shop and learn the craft, right? I mean.
Ron
Well, and that's when I started, people wouldn't tell me how to do it. But these craftsmen in the Michigan and Chicago area, they would answer my questions. But it took forever to come up with the right question.
Katie
You don't know which part you messed up. It doesn't work out.
Ron
So but over time, I learned how and then some fellows in Chicago wanted me to teach a group and a fishing club and from, you know, and that spread from one thing to another. and probably the the best instruction that I've ever done and was the most rewarding is when I worked with Project Healing Waters we worked with wounded veterans and taught them how to build fly rods and it was it was life-changing for the vets and it was life-changing for the instructors
Katie
yeah I spoke to one of our local I think he was maybe the president of our local chapter from Project Healing Waters and he had mentioned that they do like fly tying and rod building but I didn't realize that bamboo rods were included in that. I assumed it was just putting together graphite rods. So that's pretty cool.
Ron
Go online and look up the old website, Bamboo Bend. Bamboo Bend was the school that we started in Michigan. Well, if you know the guys from Project Healing Waters, you really are top notch.
Katie
Well, I know one guy from Project Healing Waters. Okay. I'm working on it. So after clarifying there that it's kind of important to learn it from somebody, why don't we dive in and do an audio version of how to build a bamboo fly rod? But I guess just as an overview, you know, like we mentioned earlier, putting together like a graphite rod is really putting it together. You know, it does require skill for sure, but you're getting the blanks, you're getting all the pieces and you're putting it together in the right way. Whereas bamboo, you're really crafting it from the ground up. But I know that there are different, like, you know, I don't know if they're called facets, but the different portions that all go together to form one rod, either, you know, a hexagon shape, or I think they come in different shapes. Do you want to talk a little bit about the differences? You know, are there, you know, five-sided, six-sided rods? What's the difference between those? And how do you come to that shape from a stalk of bamboo? How does it become a rod?
Ron
Bamboo rods over time have been made in lots of different shapes. There's people in Europe that have made them in 12 and 10-sided. There's a guy in Europe now making them in three. In three, yeah. The true triangle. The standard is the six-sided rod. That's because it's easy to make.
Derek
Yeah, you've got to remember your geometry. So a hexagon is made up of six equilateral triangles.
Katie
But I'll meet in the middle at the point, right?
Derek
They're all the same. The length of each side of the triangle of each of the six that make up the hexagon is the same, right? So now you go to a four-sided rod, they're different. Now you have a right triangle and you have two short sides, one long side. And then if you have a five-sided rod, you have a triangle that's totally different on all sides and all angles. Very difficult. And so you have to so you have to have equipment that will set those angles for you. And and so that's what some of the guys actually, you know, I was thinking this guy Edwards is famous for making quad quadrate rods. They call them four sided rods as far back as the 40s. I mean, and, you know, and he had to build a machine to make those strips to come together as a force, you know, as a square cross section instead of a hexagonal cross section.
Ron
I think I could summarize it by saying the six-sided rod is an all-around rod. The four-sided rod is more accurate but more difficult to cast. And the five-sided rod is for the individual that is different.
Derek
So when you fish, right, when you're casting, when you're on a water, right, you can backcast and forward cast the same. So if you could, you know, if you were casting and then you see a fish rise over there, it's pretty easy to roll it out. You're casting here, you false cast, then you just shoot it that way, right? Sure. If you had a four-sided rod, that might be a little more difficult because you might be fishing. If you think about a square.
Katie
It can't flex in the same plane, I would assume. It has to.
Derek
Exactly right. So if you're fishing, you've got the, you're fishing this one plane and then that might not be on a really good plane. So that might be a tough, that might feel really weird to do.
Katie
I see. So can you almost like turn at a right angle or straight, but you can't really like angle it toward the corner of the rod? Is that what kind of throws it off?
Derek
It's been different. It's going to be different. And I've never really cast one, so I can't really speak to it. And I know people who love four-sided rods and people love five-sided rods and people, I mean, we can get that thing called a Morgan Handmill, which will allow you to make these funky strips. But for the most part, the hexagon is going to cast the same in six directions and think about it that's going to cover you know most most of what you're going when you're in between right you're not going to really notice that sure and it's going to be really even and if if you are fishing a small free stones creek where it's where it's fast water.
Ron
A four-sided rod has an advantage because it's quick, it's accurate, where if I'm fishing like the La Torte in Pennsylvania, a Spring Creek, slow water, or the Asobel, a six-sided rod that's more delicate with finesse might be the way to go, or a five-sided rod might be the way to go. So it depends on the kind of water you're fishing and the kind of rod that you're using. And what you want. Some guys just want it. That's right.
Derek
You know, it's like some guys are Chevy guys. Some guys are Ford guys. I mean, why? You know, they're all trucks. So at the end of the day, these are all fly rods. They all cast a line. You know, but we're assuming those. We're assuming that these are the proficiency of the casting is the same, right? So to really understand, I think, fly rods, you really have to bring your casting game up so that you can feel these nuances. Because if you can't really tell the difference, because your casting isn't consistent or isn't up to snuff, then it's kind of moot.
Ron
And there are particular rod designs for particular geographic areas. The kind of rod that I would use out in Colorado is completely different than the kind of rod I would use here in Michigan. or if I was fishing the Catskills or the Adirondacks. And the rods that they make up in the Olympic Peninsula in Northern California, they're just powerful, powerful rods because the steelhead that they have that come out of the ocean are a whole lot different than the steelhead we have here. Ours fight pretty well, but the ones out there need a bigger, more powerful fly rod. And guys, Bob Clay, know how to make those.
Katie
So kind of just like any rod in that, you know, you need to cater the rod to what you're doing. There's the, it almost sounds like the six-sided rod is the equivalent of like the nine foot five weight. It's just the generalist. You can get by in most situations with it, but a lot of people then want to deviate out to get a rod that kind of fits their situation and their casting style and their preferences once they graduate from that.
Derek
I would take that actually go a little deeper into that because I think, you know, this, the generalist rod is, you know, in a bamboo is what an eight foot. I'd say seven and a half, seven and a half foot five, six, six, and that would, but, you know, when you start talking about geometry, you really start. That's the difference, I think, when you're kind of getting into the rod snobs at that point because, you know, there's not a lot of people making those and they're really unique.
Ron
Well, you know, it's kind of like golf. I've never seen a guy go golfing with one club. You know, they got to have a whole bag of them.
Derek
Yeah, but I was just thinking you're not going to go out and find a whole rack of four-piece rods or four-sided rods or a whole rack of fives. No, you're not.
Katie
So it's basically not as prevalent as like, for example, the nine foot, what I was getting, I was like the nine foot five, what is the all around, but then it's not uncommon to veer off that. Whereas it does seem like a little bit more uncommon to go into different geometries. Like it's just not a quite, quite a comparable thing because a nine foot five is just kind of where everyone starts, but then almost everyone branches off from that. But it sounds like not everyone really branches off the six sided rod. That's kind of like the standard. And unless you're getting into the…
Derek
You know, you're already in the little tiny sliver of the circle of fly rods talking about bamboo, right? Any percent of the world is fiberglass and graphite, you know, and 10 is bamboo. Well, okay, now maybe 1% in there is quads and pentas, you know. We're talking a really, really specialized piece of equipment, even in a bamboo sense. It's pretty specialized.
Ron
But the whole key is, you know, go buy an outfit for $100 and go fishing. Exactly. It's like the first time I saw a split bamboo fly ride, I was fishing on the Lower Manistee River in northern Michigan, and I had just bought state-of-the-art fiberglass, a Philipson, a Philipson Swamp Fox. And I was so proud of it. And I must have been about maybe 18 years old. And there was this guy and he was he had an English accent and he was dressed in tweeds and he was sitting on the bank. And I went over and talked to him and I said, well, why is your wooden rod so much better than mine? And he said, it isn't. I'm just more of a snob. There is that. You know, there's pros and cons to it. But, you know, the key is go fishing. And bamboo, especially for guys my age, has a definite advantage. I fished with a 9-foot 8-weight out in the Adirondacks one year, and it was windy the whole week. And when I came back home, I had to go to the chiropractor and get my shoulder worked on. And the guy said, don't ever come back if you're going to fish that rod again. and that's when I really started taking split bamboo seriously because I can fish it all day in the wind and my shoulder isn't shot.
Katie
So how does bamboo hold up in the wind like casting one because I know you always hear I know I keep comparing everything to graphite but that's just because I you know that's what I have most experience with.
Ron
It depends on the rod and the rod maker. You can change your rod's action by whether you put varnish on it or you impregnate it with some kind of oil, how you heat the cane before you start working it, what bamboo comb you select. I have some combs sitting in the corner of my shop that I'm only going to use for big, powerful steelhead rods, something I might take out to Alaska. So there's a lot of things that you put into it.
Katie
So you can change the action without changing the taper. There's other things that you can do to the rod to change the action.
Ron
Yeah. Where you put the guides, how much thread you want to do. The more you put on a rod blank, the more you slow it down.
Derek
Yeah, that's why you don't see a lot of fancy thread wraps usually on fly rods. Because, you know, you don't want to add any more weight onto that system. And it's just going to take energy away from your cast.
Katie
What are the pieces called that you fit together to make the hexagon? What is each triangle strip called?
Derek
A strip.
Katie
A strip. Okay. How do you make those?
Derek
Well, you start with a piece of bamboo and you cut it down. Let Ron keep going. I'm going to get some. I'll show you.
Ron
You start with a bamboo comb, which just looks like a big old pole, but it's grass. And if it's old enough, I like my bamboo calms to be at least five years old so that they're dry. And I can split them with a knife, just like you split firewood for the fireplace. You split it into six pieces, then you split it into 12 pieces. And if you want a two-tip rod, then you need 18 pieces. And you can split it with a knife. You can split it with a sharpened screwdriver.
Derek
That's bamboo.
Katie
It's thicker than I expected, just because people won't be able to see this.
Derek
It is thicker. It is thicker. And this piece of bamboo, cross-sectional thickness is about a quarter of an inch or so. When you make the triangle, you're only making it from the top portion of the bamboo. So actually most of that's going to go away when you make your triangles. And if you look at a piece of bamboo and you look at the ends, and I know your listeners aren't going to see this, but you see it looks darker on the outside and it's kind of white on the inside. So the darkness comes from the power fibers. That's what gives the rod all of its strength. That's what allows a bamboo to flex.
Katie
Okay, so it's the edge of the bamboo that you're basically taking pieces out of that edge to then form into the triangle strips you'll put together into a solid rod.
Derek
Right, and when you see a bamboo fly rod, you're looking at six pieces of bamboo, and you're looking at the outside of that. Each of the facets of that six-sided rod is the outside of the bamboo. And so you take a piece of bamboo like that and then you split it, you know, until you get a whole bunch of these things.
Katie
Now, how are you smoothing out all of these imperfections?
Ron
With files, with scrapers, with sandpaper, with sharp razor blades. It's the sharpness of the steel. And everybody does it a little bit differently.
Derek
And like this one is interesting. if you see here, just right below my finger, there's a leaf node. There's a, there's a groove in the middle of that strip. That's where a leaf came out. And so the leaf grew out of this on the bamboo. And so I can't use this piece. So when you're, when you're looking at bamboo, you know, I can use above or below this, but I can't, I, it's going to really limit of what I can do with this piece of bamboo. So not all the strips you get out of a, out of a, out of one of these, out of a pole is useful.
Katie
So you're kind of splitting it down and then taking the best pieces of that that you can work with. And even though there will be imperfections that you need to work out, you're trying to find the, the ones that require the least amount of, of sanding and, shaving down in order to get that rod?
Ron
Between a Chevrolet and a Pontiac or a Buick, you know, you can start with a good solid basic fly rod, but the more time you put into it, the stronger, the more cosmetically pleasing it'll be. There's field grade rods and then there's, you know, the really pretty ones.
Katie
Now does the cost, I know there's definitely a reputation of bamboo as being a more expensive rod. Is that mostly from the labor that goes into making one? Because it's not a machine just churning out blanks and then being assembled. It's every rod is just being made by hand from scratch. Or is it the cost of the materials or is it both?
Ron
The cost of materials is pretty similar, but it's the way that people put them together. Pretty costs money. That's my wife's comment again.
Derek
Color and pattern. A friend of mine has a flint napper. He makes arrowheads out of flint. I mean, like, you know, old American Indian way or Aboriginal way to make. And when people look at or buying rocks, he's always says pattern and color. That's all they're after is, you know, what is the pattern and what is the color? Anyway, this piece here has been flamed. So it's going to be dark. It's going to make a dark fly rod. And then the nodes have been worked. So that node has been flattened and on both sides. And then this has actually been cut to length. And then I've been working on straightening this.
Katie
So how do you straighten them? Because I imagine it's rare to come across one that's straight.
Derek
Well, you heat it with a heat gun and you gently bend it.
Ron
There's things inside called lignin. And when you heat it, it goes soft. So you can do whatever you want. For example, there's a fellow out in the Denver area. I can't remember his name again. But he made a hat band out of bamboo. He kept heating and turning and turning. And it was a beautiful, gorgeous split bamboo hat band.
Katie
Do you need to wet it at all like other wood? Or is it just heat?
Derek
You just heat it. If you get it over about 250 degrees, the lignin between the power fibers softens. And then you can bend it. So if it's got a bend going one way, I can heat it and bend it back the other way and then start straightening it out.
Katie
So you're working bend by bend. It's not like you just take each end and, you know, bend the whole thing and it's straight. You're going each little kink in it. You have to straighten out.
Derek
You're going to go down this. I'm trying to look at the camera here. You're going to go down the length of this guy and work the kinks out. Sweeps, I'm not so worried about. I'm worried about kinks. Okay.
Katie
The actual turns in the.
Derek
Yeah. The sweepy bend, that'll take care of in another step. But I don't want any kink. So there's like a kink right here. I can see it. But, and so I would get, I'd work that bend out. And that's where 90% of the, of the work is actually getting to a, getting your strip straight because any mistake here is just going to carry through to the end. And then, and then you end up with, so this is straight now and look how small it is. This has been tapered.
Katie
So it's a lot smaller than the last piece you held up.
Derek
And it gets, it gets thicker at this end. So now if you look at it, I don't know why it's got that funny bend in it. Anyway, so the top of the bamboo is up, but now we're all power fibers. It's all dark. I don't know if you can see that on the camera. So all the pithy stuff that you saw on that solid bamboo pole, we've planed it away. And with my planing form, I've generated the taper here. So you get six of these exactly the same. And that taper of this strip is what determines the taper of the rod.
Katie
so how do you get them to be basically exactly the same if you're working with different kinks and different nodes and different basically I'm sure every strip is a little bit different and you're gonna have to work them down so even if you were to you know make them the same size at the start but then you're working with them do they not end up like wildly different from one another
Ron
once you've worked out all the issues there's a metal planing form which is adjustable And once you adjust this metal form, the bamboo sits in it and you hand plane it. And because this form is set, then you can make six exactly the same.
Derek
The form has got a little triangle recess in it. So it's got two 30 degree sides that come down and then we can vary the depth, right, of that. And so you got to think geometry. So you got to put on your math hat. I'm sorry. I know it's, it's hard. It took me a long time to figure it out too, but essentially you, that triangle inside the form is what we're making. So this, this strip will sit inside the form and then we plane away all the stuff on that, that's sitting, that's sitting high. So then I'll turn it over and I'll, and I'll keep doing, I'll go back and forth and I'll flip it, flip it, flip it, flip it. And I'm always planning off the inside. Cause remember, I don't want to take these power fibers. So this, there's one side of the triangle that's that I never touch with the plane, which is the outside of the, of the, that outside part of, from the pole. And anyway, so you see if your plane, if you see, if your form is set, right, what you're doing is the bamboo sits there into some, like I said, some bamboo sits above the form and your plane then comes along and shaves it off. And eventually you run your plane down and you're not taking off any more bamboo it's all down in that groove and that then is all this was sitting down in that groove and I was cleaning away the stuff that was standing up
Katie
so then the next one once once that one's also down in the groove only you'll basically have the the exact two same shapes because nothing else to shave off
Derek
you plane one at a time and so I'll take another piece and I'll and so the the form never changes in between all the strips so you get all identical strips
Katie
now once you have the the rod put together, is adding the external equipment fairly similar to building another rod? Like if you were to put, you know, putting the real seat on, putting the guides on, I know you said…
Derek
It's actually easier because you have a big flat that you put all the guides on the same flat and you're just not trying to put them onto a round. Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Graphite, you're just running them down a flat. And it's actually kind of like if you put a bunch of fiberglass rods together, the first time you do a bamboo rod, you're like, ooh, this is easy.
Katie
It's probably easier to line them up too because you've got the flat to follow. As long as they're all in the same flat, they're probably all pretty much lined up.
Derek
If you haven't messed up and twisted it somewhere in the process.
Ron
I always tell people when I start a class, it's easy to make a good bamboo fly rod. It's hard to make it look good. That's the tough part, the cosmetics. the silk wraps, the tipping, the varnish job, you know, selecting good cork, you know, a good ring of cork, one piece of cork can cost two, three, four dollars. So, you know.
Derek
Yeah, so it's just like, so I just, this is the last one I built. So this is just like, you know, like another fly rod, right? I mean, it's all the same. But that's a modern bamboo fly rod.
Ron
It has modern components.
Derek
Yeah. So this is, this hasn't even been fished. I haven't even put a line on this yet. So I'm taking it out to the yard because it started snowing here and getting gross. And so I haven't even put a line on this, on this, but it's, it's exactly the same. You know, you make the handles exactly the same way. You know, everything else is, is exactly, if anyone has made a fiberglass or, or, or graphite, As a matter of fact, you can buy some, some people will sell you a bamboo blank.
Katie
That's what I was wondering. So it sounds like bamboo rod building is essentially building bamboo blanks. And then you put it together the same way you would using other blanks. I'd sell blanks for $300.
Ron
And if people take their time, they end up with a $1,500 fly rod.
Derek
Yeah. I like the sound of that. Yeah. And, the, you know, the, the sad thing is, is that it's, I mean, how many hours do you think are in a flyer? I mean, I probably got a hundred hours in this, the flyer on and out of that hundred hours, maybe three of it was putting on the handle, putting on the real seat and putting on the guides. And that's the part that everyone sees. So if I make a mistake on this, it's really, it's, it's funny because you can really, you can really, like you said, it's hard to make them pretty, but it's easy to make a fly rod. And so, you know, I could really make this ugly and, and have the value be very, very low, but still have a quality fly rod that this is just like a beautiful, perfect. This is a pair. This is called a pair of 17 made by Paul Young originally from here in Michigan. And it'll fish just like any other pair of 17, but this one might be prettier than some and uglier than others. I don't know. But they'll all fish the same.
Katie
But if you're putting that much time into it, you want it to be as pretty as possible. I'm sure you don't want to.
Derek
Well, that's just it. You do. And I struggle sometimes with my wraps because I get in a hurry. Because I'm like. You're so close. And I'm like, I can't slow down. And I got to take a deep breath.
Ron
I struggle with my wraps because I can't see anymore. Yeah. Don't get old. There's nothing in it.
Derek
Yeah. So, but it's, but that, yeah, that, you know, and, and actually there's even some fly rods now. And I, Ron's going to whop me in the back of the head, but I'll say it anyway. But you can, there's a company that's, that's importing these that are having them made overseas for pretty reasonable prices. You can get a bamboo riot. I have seen those.
Ron
Those are not bad.
Derek
They're not bad rods. And they're, they're, they're really, they're decent quality. I've got all the reports. I haven't seen one yet, but they're made in China. You know, some guys take taking this process that we just talked about. If I were to pick up my computer and show you my shop over there, we could show you what a planning form looks like. But, you know, he just took it to China and then they just employ people, you know, for a lot less money to crank out rods. And so I think those rods are like three or four hundred dollars. Yeah. Maybe not even that.
Ron
but I don't think they use the same quality cane that we do.
Derek
Oh, yeah, they're cutting corners, obviously.
Ron
Well, I'm not sure that it's Tonkin cane. But for $300, $400, you've got a bamboo fly rod and you can go fish them. That's right. And the ones I've cast were okay.
Katie
Yeah, I think you mentioned it earlier, but at some point, I'm sure my casting ability falls off way faster than the quality of the rod.
Ron
But I think if you had a split bamboo fly rod, you would learn to cast much quicker because you would be feeling what's going on. And you can't do that with graphite. When I teach casting, I tell people to either go out at night where they can't see or to close their eyes. Because fly casting is all feel. Where you point your thumb, that's where the line's going to go. And if you can feel the line, you know what's going on. And what happens behind you is just as important as what happens in front of you. And a bamboo fly rod forces you to become a good caster.
Derek
Well, because you really want to learn. It forces me to really think about casting because I really want to build four different seven weight bamboo fly rods on four different tapers and be able to figure out why they're different. And so, you know, without really, you know, having to really think about casting and, you know, you're just not going to get, I'm not going to be able to tell the difference between my four rods that I'm going to make.
Ron
There's rod maker gatherings and because of the pandemic, we haven't had any this year, but you can go all over North America to these rod gatherings and there'll be 30 to 100 rod makers and rod collectors. And they'll have a rack of 50, 60, 70 rods and you get to try all these different rods. And then when you go home, you have a feel for it. There's a really good one in Colorado over near Silverton. Crystal, the Crystal River, I think it's called, but I'm not sure. But anyway, and then the Denver area has a whole bunch of good rod makers that'll take the time to show you their stuff.
Derek
I'll send you the link to the classic fly rod forum and you can do what I did. Just say, hey, new person here in Denver thinking about this. And yeah, you'll find people. Like I said, it's a different era now. People are very much want to share the craft. You know, and I know people that have, they just want to make one fly rod and one and done. And that's good too, you know?
Ron
When you get a minute, go to my website, Alder Creek Angling, and give me a mailing address. Send me an email and I'll send you some information, some books and stuff on it.
Katie
All right, sounds good. Well, guys, I've already taken up an hour of your time, but is there anything that I should have asked and didn't? I'm trying to think of if I had anything else on my list and I can't think of anything, but I'm a little worried that I maybe missed something obvious that I just wouldn't know to ask having no real experience with bamboo.
Derek
All I would say is that, you know, trout live in beautiful places. That's the beauty of the sport, right? You don't go to an ugly place to catch fish. And, you know, and if you're going to spend a lot of time and energy to go somewhere to go fishing, you know, it's kind of nice to have, you know, quality equipment to go do it with. And, you know, and when you get to be where you can only plan a few trips a year because you've got all kinds of other life obligations, you know, the cost, what seems high, you know, kind of starts not seeming that bad, right? Because it's, you know, I mean, what's, you know, I keep picking on Orvis Helios rods. They could be any rod, a sage, whatever. I was a sage snob for years, but I don't think I could buy a sage for under 800 bucks.
Ron
Yeah, you can get good bamboo fly rods now for less than graphite, and that's strange.
Katie
I didn't realize that. I kind of assumed that they were pretty much always top tier price-wise.
Derek
Well, one of the guys, he started Sweetgrass Rods. What was his name? He was at Winston and went to Sweetgrass. He started Sweetgrass. I read an article with this guy, and he said that if they're charging more than $1,500, they're ripping you off. That's right. That's right. because there is a snob effect there is a snob effect you know and and you can get you know you can go over the top you can get agate guides so your stripping guide here your first guide right have it have an agate piece of stone in there you know and that those are 60 bucks a piece you know then you can go for super fancy real seats and inserts and I mean the sky's the limit you want to put a mammoth ivory real seed in sure right three dollars a ring for cork if you want floor plus plus you maybe five dollars a ring you can get hand engraved nickel silver there's a real seat there's a guy that yeah there's a guy in in georgia what's his name shoot it'll come to me but he yeah he he sells an engraved rod for thirteen thousand dollars so he does all this engraving on the on the on the nickel ferrule silver here and on the and they're beautiful rods but you know it's at the end of the day you know it's it's what do you value yeah you know it it's like cars right I mean you can you can spend a lot of money and you still get there and the yugo will still get you there but you know I think yeah we just got to get bamboo rod in your hand and you know, and find one of these gatherings. You know, we all get COVID behind us. And I know the bamboo rod gatherer guys are just as anxious to get out and get out of the house. And there's actually a big online virtual rod gathering that happens every month.
Ron
Yeah, it's on January 30th.
Derek
Yeah, January 30th. I'll send you the link. And I'll have to send you an email and you'll have to get the link from them because I don't run it. But, you know, it's just all these guys. And it is a very male, I won't say centric or dominated. There's some very, very, I mean, talented women out there making fly rods, just really beautiful things. But it's still kind of an old guy with white hair, beards like us. So don't freak out if you go on to the Nizziali's white beards because it's like a white beard club. I don't know. It's really weird.
Ron
But it's a real cross section. It's a real cross section. But here's how I always wrap things up. Take a kid fishing.
Katie
That's a great message to end on. I like it. Well, guys, I really appreciate you guys both taking the time and trying to walk me through something that's extremely hard to explain via audio. But you guys did a good job. So thank you.
Derek
You're welcome. Good night. You know how to get a hold of me if you have any more questions.
Katie
Yep, will do. And I'll be sharing all that stuff you shared in the show notes. So if people want to find those rod meetups or anything else, I'll link to all that. But I hope you guys have a good evening, and I'll be in touch soon.
Derek
All right. Thank you. Be safe.
Katie
All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Remember to head over to the website, fishuntamed.com, for all episodes, show notes, blog posts, everything else. If you've got a minute or two, leave a rating or review on iTunes. And if you're looking for me on social media, you can find me at Fish Untamed on Instagram or under my name, Katie Berger on Go Wild. And that's all for this week, but I'll be back here in two weeks and I'll see you guys then. Bye, everybody.
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