Ep 20: Renting Gear for the Outdoors, with Jay Benjamin
Jay Benjamin is the co-founder of Big Sky Rentals, a company focused on renting out fishing, hunting, and camping gear. The cost of technical outdoor equipment can be limiting, especially for those new to a sport. Additionally, traveling with gear is often a hassle. Rental gear addresses both of these problems, and Jay’s goal is to provide high-quality, low-cost, low-stress rental options. We get into what he offers, where he wants to take the business, when to rent vs. buy, and how to maintain your own gear.
Instagram: @bigskyrentals
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. today on the show I'm talking to Jay Benjamin, co-founder of big sky rentals. all right welcome to episode number 20 of the Fish Untamed Podcast today I got a chance to talk to jay Benjamin who is one of the co-founders of big sky rental which is an outdoor gear rental company. And I'm sure most people who do anything outside in terms of hobbies has probably realized that a lot of the gear that we use can be a little limiting in how expensive it is, especially if you're just getting started or don't know what exact brand or type of gear you want to use. So Jay and his business partner Bob decided to start a rental company in hopes that people who are just getting started in an outdoor sport or maybe want to try some new gear or even people who are traveling and just don't feel like taking their gear with them would be able to have a more affordable solution that doesn't sacrifice the quality. Jay and Bob offer a lot of pretty name brand gear in the hunting fishing and camping world just for those who want to use quality gear but don't want to break the bank doing so. One last thing to point out before getting started is that this was originally supposed to be a three-way conversation between Jay, Bob, and myself but Bob ended up having to bail shortly into the conversation so I do mention at the beginning that I'm talking to two people but this ended up just being a conversation between me and Jay so just wanted to make that clear so people weren't wondering where the third person was. Also I do have one last announcement before we get started and that is that this will be the final episode of Fish Untamed that is appearing on the Wild Initiative feed. I really enjoyed working with Sam and getting to provide some fishing content for his podcast. But the timing just kind of worked out for both of us. I had been planning to switch over to my own feed at some point anyway. And talking to him, the timing just kind of worked out where I was ready to switch and he had a lot on his plate. So we figured this would be a good time for me to kind of just break off and do my own podcast. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up having Sam on here at some point or if go back on his show. We still keep in pretty close contact. So if you're hearing this on the Wild Initiative feed and you want to keep hearing episodes of Fish Untamed, go ahead and go over to Apple Podcasts or anywhere else you subscribe to podcasts and just search for Fish Untamed by itself. You should find it there under its own feed. And all my pre-existing episodes will stay on Sam's podcast and will also be available on my own feed. So you shouldn't have too much trouble finding episodes from here on out. But if you are listening on the Wild Initiative, just go ahead subscribe to fish untamed by itself as well if you want to keep getting episodes but with that little bit of housekeeping out of the way we can head over to my conversation with Jay Benjamin all right perfect well usually I start off by just asking how my guests got into you know fishing or fly fishing this is my first one with two people so if you guys want to just take turns, either talking about how you got into fishing or just the outdoors in general, if, if that's more your jam.
Jay
Yeah, sure. I think, Jay Benjamin here to, to answer your question. I'm fairly new in the world of, of fly fishing. And after doing a lot of research, realized there's a great culture to it, but the reason big sky came to be, or that really I was introduced to fly fishing was my boss is a huge fly fishing outdoorsman and he had invited Bob and myself on a pretty deluxe fly fishing trip out west in Wyoming you know kind of wading along some rivers out there camping at night fly fishing by day and And we, we, both Bob and I were thinking about going on the trip and, you know, convincing our wives to let us spend a week out west, you know, on a boys trip. And once I got looking at prices of gear and flights and all that, I realized that while this would be awesome for somebody who does it sparingly like myself or who was not exposed to fly fishing and more of a camper and more of a hunter, that there's an opportunity there to make these activities more affordable and more, you know, more available to the public. and entice people like myself who hadn't had the opportunity to fly fish to do so more often. And since then, I've had the opportunity to do so a couple times and have loved it and have researched it and learned about it from experts, from avid fly fishermen, fly fisher women, and are really excited about making it more available to good gear and renting. But for me, I would say I'm even still a novice in the world of fly fishing.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that's what I hear a lot is most people didn't really get their starts diving headfirst into fly fishing, but a lot of people end up kind of finding it after a while. And even if they don't completely switch over to it, It's kind of something that starts to ingrain itself more into people's lives as they get older. So do you want to talk a little bit about Big Sky Rentals?
Jay
Sure. Big Sky Rentals at its core is trying to make fly fishing, camping, and hunting available to everybody. So, you know, in our experience, we learned that, you know, gear can be expensive and, you know, more so there's a lot of gear out there. So what is it that people need when they're going on a fly fishing trip to Montana versus to the Bahamas or, you know, camping in northern Manitoba versus New Mexico or or hunting for, you know, pheasant versus duck versus whitetail. And so, you know, our hope is to alleviate kind of the outdoorsman as well as the everyday person who doesn't get to do this as often from the, you know, financial stress as well as the kind of concern over what is it I need. So, you know, getting top of the line gear for a fraction of the retail price and getting it drop shipped to wherever you need it. So it's it's easily accessible. You put it back in your box once you once it arrives and you've used it. And, you know, it's it's as easy as renting it online, putting it back in the box and, you know, you're you're good as good as done with it. So, you know, we realized that we want to carry premium or, you know, really good gear because, you know, it can ruin a trip going on a cold weather camp and not having the appropriate sleeping bag or having waders that perhaps leak a little bit or aren't catered to that, you know, a rod that's not catered to the right environment. And we had a background in rental, really a truck rental business and thought we'd lend, you know, our expertise to perhaps a different industry, but alleviating a lot of the, you know, both financial and operational concern with doing these activities, you know, and hopefully making a more sustainable, you know, earth and kind of getting people outdoors more.
Katie
So what's the range of gear that you offer? Because I know when you first mentioned it to me, you had said camping, hunting, and fishing. Is it still just camping, hunting, and fishing? Or has it expanded into more outdoor activities? I know that encompasses a lot of it, but do you expand beyond those? Or are there plans to expand beyond those? What's the range of gear that you offer?
Jay
Yeah, so we're right now sticking to camping, hunting, and fishing and trying to master that craft. So that way, you know, when Katie Berger calls and she's going on a hunting trip, we've got everything you need for that specific trip. And as customers say, hey, I really wish you carried backpacking gear or, you know, other outdoor activities alike that we take, you know, what our customers are demanding and help transition that into new product lines. But for now, we want to make sure that what we're doing, we're doing right and make sure that it's seamless and don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
Katie
and and within those I guess categories like how how small do these products go? because like it makes sense to perhaps you know rent rent out waders, boots things like that and for hunting I don't know like what kinds of things do you rent out and how small does that go like can I rent a fly pack for the day or is it more like the big stuff like rods reels, waders, things like that?
Jay
Right now we're doing big stuff, but we're still building out our catalog and have every intention of putting fly packs on there. One thing, and I know this is primarily a fishing audience, but we don't carry firearms. So that's one thing that we don't have in our catalog, but we are planning to make it as comprehensive as possible. So right now, We have boots, waders, rod deals, packs, coolers, vests. I might have said boots, but boots if I didn't say that already. And we're working with guides and lodges really to advise us as to what is it that, you know, either somebody who does this regularly or kind of a newbie out on the water needs to be successful. So a recent comment was, you know, needle nose pliers is a must out there. You know, to your point, fly packs are a must. The one thing we don't want to take away is the, you know, the need for people to be in touch with the guides or the outfitters. we realized that there's a local lean, I guess is maybe the best word, to what flies do you need for this water, or the person in that shop has navigated these waters thousands of times. And so our goal is to make it as seamless for the guides to do what they do best, and us help them you know, kind of manage the inventory a bit and, you know, have everybody be hunky-dory out on the water and make it as easy as possible to do so with as much gear that, you know, that a person needs to be out there.
Katie
Yeah, that makes sense too. I feel like A, from a standpoint of it almost doesn't really make financial sense for a person to rent something, let's say like flies or a fly box because at the end of the day, if you're getting into something like fishing, you know, that's, that's the least of your concerns price wise. I mean, like where you really stack up the money is like the big high ticket items, the rods, the reels, fly lines, things like that. So at the end of the day, I don't know if it is really, you know, absolutely necessary for people to be able to rent like the very smallest things. Uh, if you can't drop 20 bucks to, to go fishing, I'm not sure fishing is for you. But that said, I also feel like there's a benefit to people, you know, learning their own flies. And, you know, you do go to the local fly shop and talk to someone there and they can explain to you, you know, why they're picking out these flies for you to buy. So I think also it kind of keeps that connection alive between the angler and where they're actually going to fish versus kind of having the entire thing spoon fed to them, not to take away from the rental, I think there's a benefit for sure to getting, you know, the big gear that a lot of, a lot of first timers don't have. But I think it is good to kind of maintain a little bit of that connection, like you said, between the angler and their local fly shop who can kind of get them a little bit more connected to the water through some of those smaller items that they're going to need to go in there and buy.
Jay
Yeah, I couldn't, couldn't agree more. In doing our research and, you know, at IFTD and the fly fishing show and getting to talk to many guides, you know, that that was some really key feedback, I think was, you know, the commentary we got back was as a guide, they're having to manage inventory to a variety of shape sizes of people. And really what they're best at and what they love to do is advise people on how to catch fish and where to be on the water and how to get on the water and not necessarily you know buying different size waders from a size 52 waist to a you know six foot seven you know height person and so you know our hope is is to partner with with those folks to make it that you know I don't think we'll ever be able to replace knowledge base, nor do we have any intention to replace that knowledge base of the local fly shop or guide or outfitter, because I think they're integral to really getting people out on the water and being successful out on the water.
Katie
So on that note, do you kind of focus on more on the individual who would like to rent gear for, let's say, a trip they're taking, or are you kind of hoping to focus a little bit more on renting to larger groups like that, like a lodge or a shop who wants to have gear available to their clientele, but doesn't have the ability to maintain that type of inventory?
Jay
I would say we lean towards both. So in our experience, there's a much larger population of individuals who, you know, can more on the, you know, business to customer side, B2C of, you know, here are all the people kind of in the U.S. who could afford to go on a fishing trip and would think about renting. We certainly want to offer that to the general masses and do so that way. But there are also a lot of folks who are doing corporate travel or group travel who, you know, are signing up to be at a lodge and don't necessarily know what all that encompasses to go on this vacation, might not hear about us just through the internet or through podcasts or social. And so, you know, getting to those people through, you know, through the help of lodges and helping those lodges make it more affordable for people to come to them, I think is kind of the joint goal there. So, you know, a few angles, you know, helping guides or outfitter, you know, manage the inventory to, you know, help them be more successful as well as getting their customers out in nice, you know, high quality gear, getting lodges, you know, available to a larger population of folks who can now afford to go on the trip since they don't have to buy the gear, And then to the general public. So, you know, people who, like myself, I guess that would be, you know, more in my scenario of didn't really know what I was needing and didn't really know where I was going as somewhere that they can go to as a knowledge base and for gear.
Katie
Yeah. So do you help people choose what gear they need? Like, do you kind of take into consideration what what their goals are and then kind of outfit them from your side? Or is it more that people come to you and say, hey, I need such and such for this trip I'm taking? Like, who's providing the information on what gear needs to be rented in like any given transaction?
Jay
Right now, it's it's much more so the latter of people telling us what they need. but we're building out our website and really want to get to the former of, hey, I'm going to Christmas Island. What am I going to need? And what sort of offerings can you tailor to Christmas Island versus, you know, what you carry to go to Colorado? And we want to be, you know, we're building out kind of a customer service portal of, hey, these are experts who have been to different geographies or know the landscapes who can lend advice to what you're going to need based upon the excursion you're about to embark on.
Katie
Yeah, I can see both of those being really valuable because, you know, for example, if I were going somewhere, let's just say East Coast, where it's like, I don't really want to take all my gear with me. I'm like, I'm familiar with the species out there, but maybe I don't know what rod I need. But for the most part, I feel like I could, I could tell you, you know, what I need for that. But on that, on the other hand, if I went down to the saltwater, I'd have no idea what I was doing, even though I'm very familiar with fly fishing, I'd still be lost in that situation. So I think even individuals, it's not just a how new are you to the sport, determining whether you're going to need help choosing, it can just be as simple as I don't know the conditions for for where I'm going or I've never fished for this species before. So I think having that knowledge base would be really helpful for people, even if it's a very experienced angler coming to you guys, just being like, I'm not sure what I need for this particular situation.
Jay
And I think to pile onto that, Katie, one of the things that we thought was kind of beautiful about the idea as we developed it is you know for experienced anglers like yourself who either are trying out a new geography or species or or are kind of tired of their own own gear that they have you know that sits in their basement for a ton of time is hey this is a relatively cheap way to test out premium gear to decide if I want to be a buyer of it. Or, you know, if I'm going on an exotic hunt or fish, it's just something that's not going to be in my repertoire moving forward. And it's a once in a lifetime deal. So, so why, why should I mess with it or buy it once for it to sit, you know, in my garage or basement and, and, you know, kind of resent it after the trip long term. So, so I guess in short, we agree with you there. So I think it's a pretty cool opportunity.
Katie
Yeah, that's a good point. Cause, I didn't, I didn't really think about that, but, you know, for example, you can go to a fly shop and like, you know, if it's a good fly shop, you should be able to cast a couple of different rods to get the feel of them. Um, and of course that's 10 times better than trying to wiggle a rod around with no line on it you know you like see you see people doing that walking in and just you know jiggling the rod around and like well what did you learn from that you didn't you didn't catch it or anything so if you go to a good fly shop you should be able to go out and at least take a couple casts with a couple different rods but at the end of the day it still doesn't tell you as much about how much you like it as actually going out on the water for a full day trying different casts in different situations fighting a fish on the line. I don't feel like I really know a rod until I fished it a handful of times and then I can kind of pick out the idiosyncrasies of that specific rod and learn how it functions during each type of cast and while I'm bringing in a fish and things like that. So it does sound like basically an upgrade from just going to your fly shop and casting a couple different rods. It's kind of just like a try it before you buy it, but for more of an extended time.
Jay
Yeah, we think so too. And we're offering, you know, for, for folks that try it and don't like it, you just put it back in the box, right. And you're done with it. But folks who are enjoying it or like that reel or like that rod, or even like those waders, you know, you name it. We're also establishing a rent to purchase option.
Katie
Okay. That's pretty cool.
Jay
Like, you know, what we're looking for is basically as many ways to make it accommodating to, you know, to be out there and to, to do business with us as well. You know, that's, that's kind of a bonus of it, but really, you know, people who are testing it out and spend, you know, $50 to have it out for the day, you know, they want to put some of that money towards what, what it would be to buy it if they end up liking it. And, you know, We think that that'll have some merit to our customers.
Katie
So what's the process if someone wants to rent something? Like how long can you rent things? What's the rough cost? Is it different costs for different items? Like if basically from start to finish, what is the process of renting the gear and then getting it back to you guys and all the steps in between?
Jay
Yeah. So for starters, you'd find us on our website at bigskyrent.com. And you would be looking at kind of a variety of options once you get there. So we have an a la carte option for those of you who are interested in just a rod or just a reel or just a pair of boots or you name it. And then we have the packages option, which has kind of the big items that we discussed that you would need for a day out on the water. And so what you would do is select the dates that you need it. And right now, we're asking for and really kind of testing this as we're new. I think, frankly, Katie, the dates are going to be shortened here. But originally, we were asking for week-long, you know, kind of rental commitments, knowing that a lot of people are taking four to five days to be out on the water. But now realizing there are a lot of folks who are just going out for the weekend. So you can expect to see that change. But you would pick your start date and, you know, select your size. And then we would send you a follow-up email to make sure that all of what we're providing is compatible for what you need and for your geography. And once you confirm that, you can expect to see a box with our logo on it arrive either at your front door or at the lodge you're staying at or whatever postal address you're putting on there for us to ship it a couple days before your excursion. and you go out, enjoy yourself on the water, hopefully dry the waders off a little bit before they get back in the box and then throw it all in there and drop it off at FedEx. We have a return label in there so all you have to do is put it on there and put a little tape on there to seal it up and you're done with it at that point.
Katie
And what's the process? I mean, ideally this would never happen if someone, you know, breaks a rod or rips a hole in their waders or something like that, how's that handled?
Jay
Yeah. It's on a case by case basis, but we realized that, look, customer satisfaction is everything in this business, as well as, you know, people don't want to go on vacation and have hassles. So if it means overnighting a ride or, you know, if you've got a puncture in your waders calling our you know our customer line and us walking you through how to patch it or what to do there we will you know spare no cost to make sure that it is right for for our customers because look it's a whole lot more damaging to you know to have somebody leave and say you know what I just didn't have a great experience with their gear and they didn't do a great job of helping me out when I was in a bind, that's a whole lot more costly to us than sending a new rod.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that just takes a lot of the stress out of it too. I know that if I ever borrow somebody's gear, there's always, I mean, I can relax. I know it's usually like one of my friends' things is not going to destroy our friendship if I break their rod, but there's always a little something in the back of my mind that's just saying, like, I really don't want to deal with, you know, breaking this piece of gear and then having to worry about, you know, making it up to my friend, replacing their equipment. They might have to go a while without it. Like, it's just not something I wouldn't have to worry about. So, I do think that having, basically the peace of mind that it's not going to be the end of the world. If something goes wrong, that probably makes people feel a lot more at ease.
Jay
Yeah, that that's our hope. And, you know, it, it happens all the time. People break rods, you know, it happens that, that, you know, people have hangups while they're on a trip. But that's kind of the last thing we want is for them, you know, not only to have a hangup, but to have a bad experience and have to worry about it. And so, you know, I wish I could say there's a hard fast of if it breaks on a Tuesday, it's going to be there Wednesday morning at 6 a.m. But, you know, I can't give you a hard and fast rule, but we're dedicated to making sure that it's right is what I've been telling you.
Katie
And what is the cost of like it does the cost vary between like larger items? I know you said you have the packages where you get more of a set of equipment than just an individual item but is there is there like a rough estimate of say someone's coming in and it's either their first time fly fishing or maybe they're going somewhere and aren't taking any of their gear so let's just assume they're getting like all the essentials for a day out on the water you know rod, reel, waders, boots
Jay
yeah so so for kind of the all-in-one package it's 43 a day that gets you you know a G Loomis imx pro, a hatch reel, you know scientific angler hot fly line sims g3 waders you know, boots, vests, backpack, cooler, and anything over $50, it's a flat rate of shipping of $25 round trip. And so, you know, for a week at that, if you just kind of extrapolate that out, It's, you know, about 300 bucks to use, you know, Simms gear, Yeti cooler, you know, hatch reel for the full week.
Katie
Yeah, that sounds like a lot at first until you think about how much it would cost to buy all that stuff. Because that's not like off-brand gear. That's like some pretty decent gear, especially for somebody who might just be starting out. That's nicer than a lot of the gear I use anyway, and I've been doing it for years. So that's not a bad deal, especially to try out some of like you're trying out a bunch of different brands, too, which is nice. Kind of getting a feel for a lot of different things instead of, you know, only coming out and being like, well, I only know what this one brand is like now.
Jay
Yeah. And, you know, I think I think that, you know, the retail cost of that would be, you know, if you're not buying it on some steep, you know, garage sale sale, it's probably twenty five hundred bucks. And so, you know, it's, we think it's, you know, a pretty good discount from spending $2,500 to $300. And, you know, it's one thing to do it and you get junk gear or gear that you're not, you're not feeling good about yourself when you're on the water. But I think it's better to be out there with quality stuff. And that's really what we're about is, you know, we don't want to send anyone stuff that's just like, you know, wouldn't be any different from buying what you would buy at Walmart, right? We want you to feel like you're a seasoned veteran out on the water, even if it's your first time.
Katie
Yeah, that probably gives you a good taste of what it's actually going to be like when you get gear. Because most people eventually are going to want something a little nicer than the bare minimum. So if it's something that they're trying out for the first time to see if they like it, I would hope that someone's not completely turned off of fishing because they didn't have the best gear. But if you go out and you're using the lowest quality gear there is, you might get a hole in your waders or the cast might just not be very smooth and it might just feel a little bit clunkier and give you a little bit more pause when you think whether you'd like to do it again. Whereas if you get a at least, you know, baseline good quality experience or an exceptional experience with some good gear, I feel like you're much more likely to kind of feel like it's coming more naturally to you and maybe want to continue doing it after the fact.
Jay
Yeah, I kind of like it to tuxedos, you know, and for me, it's, you know, I go to a wedding once a year, maybe where I, you know, if that were it's black tie and I have to wear a tuxedo. and you know I've rented from many places and you know the the times stand out where I got a tux where I didn't feel like I was wearing kind of a plastic suit you know you don't want to on a nice occasion feel like you know stiff in your waders or uncomfortable or just kind of be thinking about how you know maybe I should have bought that instead you just want people to have good time. And so we think with good gear, you know, that that lends itself to it.
Katie
For sure. I wanted to transition over to like when when do you think it's a good idea to buy gear versus rent gear? Obviously, you run a rental company, so you may be a bit biased, but I'm sure there are times that it's best to recommend buying gear versus renting gear. And what would you say on that topic?
Jay
If you are an avid user really of anything, whether it's a car or a home or a, you know, fly fishing gear. I think if you know significant use out of it in a year span, then I would say renting it is probably not the best option for you. You know, I think this caters to a small population, but there are some people just with so much money that you can buy what you'd like. But I think for most people who are doing this, you know, not every weekend of the year, or maybe even less than four times a year, I think it's worth considering renting. Just, you know, you don't have a financial commitment to it you're to the point of what we talked about earlier you're you're testing the gear if you are a buyer of it so so you don't have that commitment where you bought it and now you're stuck with it and trying to figure out if it's really what you like or if it's not I think just from a flexibility standpoint if you're also a person who doesn't you know kind of make up your mind easily. Renting is a great option, but I do truly think that if you're somebody who's avid about what you're doing and you know you're going to be doing it often, then buying is the way to go. But for many other occasions, I would say renting is a good alternative. And I think renting probably in its past has had a little bit of a negative connotation because you're getting seven-year-old waders or you know in the case of a tuxedo like I mentioned you're getting you know a tux that's been starched so much that it just feels like you're wearing you know a piece of paper I think you know with this it's a little bit of a different experience that you know it's high quality and so it really is comparable to what you'd be doing if you were buying good new gear so you know I had that not been the case, I would have leaned even harder towards buying. But I think as, as renting, you know, that world expands into, you know, higher quality, better managed inventory, you know, all of these things that make it easier to do, do that sort of business drop shipping as well, I think renting becomes a bigger, you know, option to many folks.
Katie
Yeah. And like you said, I mean, it's not just, well, actually, I don't know if you said this or if I mentioned it earlier, but it's not just for the people who like don't have the gear yet, because I'm like, I'm just picturing this as being a bit like a big value for people who don't want to travel with gear. And I'm not sure if this is, if, is something that you've considered, but, like one of my big sticking points with, with traveling for fishing is that like, I, I often don't want to check a bag. Um, and if I do check a bag, then it's going to end up mostly being empty because there's not actually that much stuff to carry for fishing. Uh, and so you could obviously ship it. Say, say if I'm traveling somewhere that I know somebody, I could obviously rent gear and ship it there but have you thought about having some sort of option where you could like ship rental gear to a local fly shop in an area and then someone can come into that fly shop and pick up the gear when they get there because I've heard a lot of people bring up the fact that they'd like to rent gear from a fly shop but then the fly shop doesn't rent gear out and now they're like well now I'm stuck either paying a bunch of extra money to travel with my gear I don't want to put in a checked bag and have it get destroyed or damaged. So like in ideally I would just never travel with fly gear again. I would just rent a rod where I'm going and pop into the closest fly shop, pick it up, drop it off there when I'm done. And then, you know, it would get shipped back to you.
Jay
Is that something that you've thought about or already have going on? You're, you're two steps ahead of us on the business plan. That is, that's in the works though. What we think about it. And is, and this exists like, you know, in other industries, but kind of like Amazon lockers, right? You know, you've got a Bluetooth code. And when you show up to the Jackson Hole, Wyoming, you know, fly shop, you're in locker one, two, three, and you type in your code and you're, you know, the gear you're renting is, is waiting there for you. So, you know, that's, that's in the plan, I would say we're still a bit a ways from there, but we're definitely marching to get there. And, you know, in a kind of comparable way, I guess, there's a company that does that in golf. So they don't actually rent gear, but they ship people's gear and have lockers when it arrives. It's called ship sticks. You know, we're not planning to ship other people, but we do plan to have lockers waiting for, for folks, you know, who are interested in renting our gear and don't want to schlep it because that's, you're right. That's half the battle is, you know, do you want to haul that stuff? And, you know, people don't really want to mess with, with that sort of thing when it comes to travel or vacation. It's just like, you know, that's why all-inclusive exists. It's like, I just don't want to mess with anything. I don't want to carry my rod or my reel. Not that reel takes up a lot of space, but, you know, I think that's where this gets to is, you know, an all-encompassing, hey, we're, you know, deeply rooted in the fly shop and outfitter and guide world. And that's, you know, one of the ways to kind of further ingrain ourselves and tie that partnership out.
Katie
Yeah, I think that would encompass quite a few people. Because like I said, I like I'm happy to carry my flies around, especially because like I know, you know, I want to take my own fly pack. Personally, for me, I like having my own fly pack. I know where everything is. I know where all the, you know, things are dangling off the outside. I have it set up exactly how I want. And as much as I love using my own rod, at the end of the day, like I'm more than happy to use somebody else's rod if it means that I don't have to worry about the hassle. And same with the waders. Like if they don't leak, put them on me. I don't care if they're mine. So I could definitely see lots of people who are already avid anglers just wanting to take the hassle out and be like, look, I'll just pay the couple hundred bucks. I'm already going to be paying money anyway to check a bag with the risk of potentially damaging my own gear and the hassle of dealing with it when I could pay just a little bit more to borrow it and then not worry about it. So I think that would definitely expand your reach into a lot more groups because, yeah, it covers people who have already bought their gear and are still willing to rent.
Jay
Yeah, that's, you know, we were talking about this kind of as we developed the business plan and had these aha moments. And in a kind of parallel sense, I don't know if you're a subscriber to this, but there's a company out there called Rent the Runway that rents ladies apparel, started with ladies apparel and really kind of have reinvented that industry. you know kind of ladies fashion and the day we talked about this idea of lockers they actually came out and said they were partnering with the hotel brand to you know so that way you don't have to carry on or check a bag you've just got clothes waiting for you at at this hotel brand if you're interested in that we're like hey that was our idea just a little bit out from getting there but you know so so to in in long I guess yes we're we're planning to be there you know one day it's just kind of you know walking before running I guess
Katie
yeah I'm sure it takes a bit to to get like partnerships set up and things too because you'd probably have to basically get every fly shop that you want to partner with on board yeah which I'm sure some would be really into and I'm sure some would be against it, even if just for the idea of, you know, a major change like that.
Jay
Yeah. And I think that's, that's the biggest piece that we can't account for is just time. And, you know, this is such a new idea to, to, you know, bring to the table to, you know, customers, as well as other businesses in the industry that I think it's just, you know, at some point, it'll domino but getting you know getting some traction with them and kind of one person hears that their friend is doing it and all of a sudden it becomes you know more systemic but you know getting there just takes time
Katie
yeah for sure what do you do with your like say the gear's been around for a couple years and it's not broken but it's just kind of deteriorated a bit what what happens with that old gear? Like, do you plan to just retire it? Would you sell it at like a really discounted rate? Do you have a vision for that yet?
Jay
Yeah, we, so we, we have a vision for it. And I think this is the path we're going to go, you know, we're not a couple of years in, so I don't know exactly, but the thought is to have, you know, kind of comparable to REI's garage sale have a blowout, you know, event where, Hey, we're selling, you know, maybe a little tired, but, you know, well-branded gear, at a fraction of what it'd be to buy new. And so, you know, draw people to, to buy who, who might not otherwise afford to buy. And, you know, that, that population that we just talked about that does this so regularly but also you know wants you know sims waders that maybe otherwise wouldn't wouldn't be able to afford guide level waders you know getting those at a at a steep discount from from the new retail price okay and I guess I think I think there will be some stuff that we just have to retire that it's like hey we don't really feel comfortable you know offering this out you know it's just but I think you know it's going to be a mixed bag of of what you know we feel can be sold and what we're just not comfortable offering to our customer base
Katie
yeah I'm sure it depends on the type of gear too I feel like a rod can last I mean as long as no one slams it in a car door that can last a decade without a problem probably, but waders, you know, you can, I've, I've ripped a pair of waders two weeks into owning them before. So, you know, that's, that's a little more up in the air based on, based on the use that, you know, how people are treating them when they're out.
Jay
Yeah. Yeah. There's no doubt. And that's what we, we've learned in, you know, kind of our time in our, you know, truck rental past is that if you have nice equipment, people tend to take care of it better, right? If it's junk, people treat it like junk. But if, you know, if it comes in a nice package and you feel like you're getting good stuff, generally speaking, people will take care of it like it's their own stuff. So, you know, we think that that kind of lends itself to, you know, an event where we can sell some stuff at a very discounted price, you know, after we're done with it or evaluating it continuously or going back out on rent.
Katie
And that goes to the customer service piece you mentioned earlier too. I feel like you're much more likely to treat your right when you kind of feel like you know the person whose gear it is. Like I said before, if I'm borrowing my friend's gear, I do not want to ruin it. Where if I have just find a fly rod on the ground and pick it up, like I don't really care, you know, how I treat it. It's just some random piece of gear. So having that, you know, close customer service, people knowing that you're treating them right. I'd be much more likely to care about how I'm treating the gear when I feel like I have a bit of a personal connection to the people on the other side. You know, I don't want to upset somebody who I've been in contact with for a couple of weeks via email by, you know, returning their gear in terrible condition.
Jay
Right. Yeah, just getting that extra touch, you know, the relationship there of making the customer feel like they're human. You know, it's not just some machine on the other end of the line that's just cranking out a whole bunch of fishing gear. It's, you know, it's being washed and cleaned and, you know, given some love before it arrives at your doorstep. I think that goes a long ways.
Katie
On the same kind of note about the condition of the gear, one thing I did want to touch on that I know we had talked about before recording is do you have any tips for maintenance of gear like this? Because I feel like a lot of people who own their own gear, regardless of whether they know what they should be doing to take care of it, at the end of the day, it's their gear. And as long as it's still working for them, a lot of people will just continue treating it how they've always treated it. But as someone who owns a business that really relies on keeping the gear in as good a condition as possible for as long as possible, do you have any tips about how to maintain not just fishing gear, but outdoor gear in general?
Jay
Yeah, you know, we as we got into this, that was, you know, fairly one of our concerns is, hey, what are we going to do with with this gear as it comes back? And, you know, kind of for each piece I've had to evaluate what's the step to clean it and, you know, how do we, you know, how do we make it whole again if it comes back and is a little dirty or whatnot. You know, I think one of the tricks of the trade, and you probably know this already, Katie, but for waders specifically is, and we've learned this just after a few, you know, a few rents is, first of all, there's no replacement for just washing gently, even by hand with like warm water and a powder detergent. You know, I think that kind of on the exterior, you do that and you hang it dry and things look great. But, you know, the big key for waders, right, is a leak. So, you know, after you do that, you know, flip it inside out and inspect for holes. And, you know, if you think there's an area that's got a hole, if you spray it with isopropyl, it will actually show up dark where that leak is. So, you know, it's kind of an indicator or it is an indicator of where you've got a problem. And, you know, once you dry that off after spraying it, if you just apply some AquaSeal, you know, and let that AquaSeal dry, you probably have, you know, more than whole set of waders again. And, you know, I think kind of if you have to stitch it, there's, you know, it's easy to see what you're doing or where you're doing it once that happens. But, you know, what we found is AquaSeal does a pretty good job.
Katie
That's funny that you went straight to waders because I was going to ask how you find the holes in your waders. Because what we always used to do was like go into a basement, turn off all the lights, turn them inside out and then hold a flashlight up to all the seams.
Jay
Oh, that's brilliant.
Katie
light shining through but then you're trying to like circle it with a sharpie in the dark oh yeah
Jay
I didn't think about that
Katie
yeah we used to have a bunch of waders that we'd rent out to people the company I used to work for and if you if you turn those waders inside out it was just like a circus of sharpie rings wherever there was a hole that's
Jay
that's hilarious we have since heard the trick that you mentioned yeah I we we talked to the folks at sims and we're like look you guys have to be masters at this, right? I mean, every, every one of you is out on the water regularly. You know, your product, you know, what, what is it that y'all do with, with your, your own gear? And they, they let us in on, on that recommendation. And so it's, it's been really great advice so far because we've had that a few times and it's worked well. You know, kind of to go down the list with, and this is true, you know, with tense sleeping pads, you know, rods. I think there's no substitute for just warm water and dish soap and kind of a fine tooth brush just to kind of, you know, wipe it over once, inspect for cracks, dry it off, let it hang dry. you know, pat it down, hang dry, and then store it somewhere dry as well as somewhere safe. You know, I think what we've heard just, just, you know, as recommendations is just as many people break gear by like bumping into, you know, it falling off the shelf or, or whatever as, you know, from mildew of not drying it properly. I think that's, that's a big cause for, you know, kind of inspiration of gear, so to speak. But, you know, I think warm water and dish soap works pretty darn well from what we found. Sleeping bags, you know, we dry clean those. We don't want people to feel like they're touching somebody else's, you know, germs or anything that, you know, we don't pretend to be experts in dry cleaning we we have that dry clean but fishing line and I think I thought I saw Katie that you you wrote a piece on this so I don't I think what what I was going to tell you is what I you know what we do is probably the exact same thing we put you know warm water with dish soap, pull the line off the spool, let it soak for a little bit and then run it through a clean cloth and then run it through a clean cloth a second time and then apply fly line dressing. So if I recall we were pretty similar in our practice there but those are our, you know, I don't know if I would say tricks of the trade, but that's what we do to make sure it's back up and ready for each subsequent customer.
Katie
You know, it's funny that you say that we have the same practices for the fly line because I think that's one of those areas where it's like a do as I say, not as I do. Because I definitely know how to clean a fly line. But from everything I've seen, and this is, I don't know if this is because it's coming from the manufacturer or if people really do this, but they recommend cleaning it after like every one or two times you go fishing. And I'm more of a once a year type of person.
Jay
Yeah, that's what we asked the folks at Scientific Angler, it's like, hey, do you really need to clean this stuff? I mean, it's just going back in the water, you know, and the people, you know, who we've, we've spoken to don't do it, but once a year and they're like, yeah, you know, if you want it right, clean it, you know, don't, don't mess around with it getting, getting gunked up or anything like that. So there's definitely that, that sense, I think around fly line where it's like, you know, no, nobody thinks it's indestructible, but it's like, oh, it's just line. So it's just going back in the water but we we make sure to clean it every time so at least people feel like you know or so they get that full experience for sure that makes that definitely makes sense when your whole
Katie
your whole business model is giving people quality gear that was just one of those things that stuck out to me where I was like I just you know if I'm fishing a place that's really gunky and the lunch is coming out gray after every cast then maybe I'll consider it but that's one of those ones that I I know I probably should be better, but I just don't feel like it's worth my time most of the time. Although I see consistently.
Jay
Yeah, it's like the forgotten stepchild a little bit, even though I feel like it's the key to the whole experience is your fly line.
Katie
Yeah, that's one of those things that I feel like now when I first started, I always heard that the rod is what makes a good cast. And the past couple of years I've been hearing more of a transition over to the line makes a big difference. not that the rod doesn't but more of an emphasis on how how much a fly line can change a cast
Jay
yeah I've heard that quite a bit too I think that culture is is definitely shifting from kind of rod centric or so you know fly line heavy
Katie
now are there any tips that you know of for maintaining fly reels beyond you know if you take it in a salt water you should definitely make sure it's it's rinsed in fresh water because the only thing that I've heard really for reels is to like loosen the drag out to nothing when you're done I don't even know really what that's for that's just what I've heard that you should you shouldn't leave your reels like fully set to like a heavy drag but do you have any knowledge on that do you know?
Jay
I don't have much more than that you know we've we've had to just to honestly just to pull one apart and see what it's like to clean one disassemble one but I think where we sit is exactly to your point just you know loosen the drag and and clean it but I'm not sure there you know that's part of the reason we went with with hatch at least you know first of all they've they've been great but is also they they make a you know maybe indestructible is strong but they make a pretty strong reel where it's like hey this this thing can take take some stuff happening to it and you know even if we clean it every time it you know and don't do you know a microscopic clean and just make sure that it's it's you know nice but maybe brand new isn't where it gets back to on the reel but that it's still you know got that same action on it and feels good
Katie
I feel like for most people that's fine
Jay
yeah I'm not sure thatthere's a great solution out there to to clean the reel and do so you know efficiently and I think as a result you know most people end up fly fishing with you know dirty reels and do it just fine
Katie
yeah I mean most of the time for trout you're not even really using the reel anyway so yeah exactly and I feel like it's good news that the majority of flag gear maintenance involves not much more than just like soap and water. So I remember when I've, you know, I've looked up, you know, fly line cleaning and wader cleaning and things like that. And every time it's always like surprisingly easy. I'm always expecting to see, you know, you need to buy this product. And apart from like the fly line dressing, which, you know, you could even consider that optional, I think.
Jay
Yeah.
Katie
If, especially if you're the type of person like me, that's not even cleaning their line very often, I'm probably also not going to really notice much of a difference between not dressing it and dressing it, even though I know you're technically supposed to. It seems like most of the maintenance is just as simple as washing things with soap and water, which is, you know, just a really nice low bar to set where it's like, okay, I can definitely, you know, maintain my gear if all I have to do is wash it with things I already have in my house.
Jay
Yeah. I'll tell you that when we've, you know, first started asking around as to what the best thing was to do to clean each piece and everybody came back with like warm water and dish soap. I was kind of thinking, and I don't know if you've ever seen my big fat Greek wedding, but the father puts like Windex on everything to make. I was like, maybe this is just an industry like old wives tale that, you know, is, is just, this is just something they're telling us, but it seems to be pervasive everywhere and it's worked for us. But I was also, you know, kind of blown away by it, by the fact that everyone came back and said, oh yeah, just soap and water, that's all it is.
Katie
I mean, you see those videos of them washing, like, the birds that have gotten caught in the oil spills with, you know, dish soap, saying that it's, like, gentle enough for a baby duck, and it's like, well, you know, I guess it's probably okay for my waders then, and you know it cleans things, so I think it probably is as effective as people say it is. Yeah, that's a good point. Well, do you just want to end by telling people where they can find you, if they want to come rent something from you?
Jay
Yeah, sure. For all you listeners out there, you can find us at bigskyrent.com or at our Instagram handle, which is at Big Sky Rentals. And as well, that's our Facebook handle. So look forward to having everyone join us out there under the big sky. And thank you so much, Katie.
Katie
Yeah, thank you for coming on. I really enjoyed learning about the rental options there are now.
Jay
yeah enjoy talking to you as well thank you
Katie
all right and that'll do it as I mentioned earlier in the show this is my last episode under the wild initiative podcast feed so as much as I definitely encourage you to keep listening to the wild initiative go ahead and go over to apple podcasts or anywhere else you subscribe to podcasts and also subscribe to the fish untamed podcast the fish untamed podcast is now the only place you'll be receiving these episodes so go ahead and subscribe there I'd also love for you to rate and review it if you enjoyed what you heard and you can find me on social media under fish untamed on instagram and my name katie burgert on go wild and I will be back here in two weeks so hopefully I will see you all then all right bye everybody
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