Ep 19: DUN Magazine, with Jen Ripple
Jen Ripple is the Editor-in-Chief of DUN Magazine, a fly fishing magazine written by women and for women. After writing a women’s column for another magazine, Jen realized there wasn’t yet a women-focused publication in the fly fishing world and decided to start one of her own. While DUN is by no means meant to exclude men (and Jen mentions how many of her readers actually are men), it does offer a different perspective of the fly fishing experience. With both digital and print material (which comes in the form of a high-quality, booklike magazine), DUN is a great escape for readers looking to try something a little different from the typical fly fishing magazine selection. In this episode, we talk about Jen’s background, her experience starting DUN, and the effects, both positive and negative, that social media has had on the industry.
Website: DUNmagazine.com
Jen's Instagram: @Jen_ripple
DUN Instagram: @DUNMagazine
Cover Image by Jessica Haydahl Richardson
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Intro
You're listening to The Wild Initiative Podcast Network. Learn more and check out all the shows at thewildinitiative.com.
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast where we talk all things fishing, conservation, and the outdoors. Today on the show I'm joined by Jen Ripple, editor-in-chief at Dun Magazine. All right, welcome to episode number 19 of the Fish Untamed podcast. Today I got a chance to talk to Jen Ripple, who is the editor-in-chief of Dun Magazine, which is a women-focused fly fishing magazine. It's for women and by women, so she says that 90-something percent of their authors are women. So it gives the magazine a bit of a different perspective than a lot of the other fly fishing magazines out there. We get into a couple different topics today. Obviously, kind of how she got her start in the fly fishing world and how she launched her magazine. going from a digital-only magazine to a print magazine as well as digital now, and how featuring women has kind of allowed there to be a bit of a different voice in the fly fishing world. As she mentions in the interview, Dun Magazine is by no means an anti-man magazine, but it does offer a bit of a different perspective. Most of the articles in it are not about women, but they're just written by women, so from a different perspective than what you'd normally read. We also get into a little bit about social media and how that's kind of progressed over the past couple years both in a positive and negative way. So it was just a really fun and casual conversation. So without further ado, here is my chat with Jen Ripple. Well I usually just start with a little bit about your fishing background. I know that we're mostly talking about the magazine today but I always like to hear you know how people got their start
Jen
so my fishing background is I started actually it was a really really cold winter in Ann Arbor Michigan one year and I was looking for something to do I had just broken up with my boyfriend at the time and you know I'm not one to like do pottery or like crochet or anything like that that's just not who I am and so I looked online and there was a fly tying class and it was really cheap it was like 65 bucks or eight classes or 85 bucks for six classes something like that and so I decided to take a fly tying class so I actually learned to tie flies before I learned to fish
Katie
that's that's pretty interesting did you have did you have an outdoor background like is that what drew you into wanting to tie flies versus like other crafts?
Jen
nope I have a science background hang on I'm gonna shut off my computer okay there it's not gonna be dinging now yeah no I have a science background I was working at the university of Michigan actually at that time and so I you know I grew up on a lake a small lake in Wisconsin but I did not fish at all I like I skated and snowmobiled didn't fish and and I apologize if you're gonna have to actually edit out me coughing No, we'll just leave it in Now that I'm going to talk some more, you know Yeah, people love to hear me cough in their ears So yeah, so my brother and sister were the anglers in the family I was not And so then I just, you know This was something I didn't even know what it was I knew it had something to do with fishing And I knew that my grandfather was one of these executives That would fly into Canada every year and go fly fishing But he was well dead before I even picked up a fly rod So, yeah. And then like after I got into fly fishing, I found out that my grandmother on my mom's side was a really big angler, a really big fly angler in Vienna. Oh, really? Yeah. So that was really interesting. And in Russia, but mostly in Vienna where she went to school.
Katie
So what what took you from fly tying to the actual, you know, active fishing? Because I feel like that's a big hurdle to actually take a rod out on the water and start catching fish.
Jen
Yeah, you know, I started hanging around the fly shop. And to me, I guess I felt like it was a natural progression. Well, I didn't know anything else, right? So for me, the Huron River, which is the Bass River, runs right to the campus of the University of Michigan. And so I could see the river from where I worked. Okay. So when the ice was off the river, it just seemed natural to me to buy a used fly rod and go teach myself to fish. So that's what I did. Like every day after work, I would just leave my job and go down to my car, throw my waders on, walk into the river and just spend hours and hours teaching myself to fish. Not very well, to be real honest, until I took a fly casting. So is that for you started with bass then? Yeah, yeah. Bass. In fact, it was like two, two years later before someone well you can't catch bass with a fly rod you're supposed to catch trout and I was like trout what's trout?
Katie
yeah you can't do this thing that you've been doing successfully you know for a while now
Jen
yeah yeah right and so I'm not I'm to this day I'm still not a big trout angler at all in fact I do the Rippinhoppers road fish redfish roadie and the Rippinhoppers adventure where we Heather Hodson from United Women and I United Women on the Fly and I we go like cross country on this road trip fishing and like connecting women and everything. And she's a big trout angler. You know, she lives in Spokane, Washington, and she fishes for trout like predominantly and steelhead. And I'm like bass and saltwater and, you know, gar and musky and all that kind of stuff. And so she calls me the anti-trouter.
Katie
I can see that. I grew up with like the same species that you're talking about, not on a fly rod, but on a spin rod. But I can see how, you know, trout can seem a little bit boring if you've grown up or learned catching some of the more exciting species.
Jen
Right, exactly. To me, it's like you fish for trout and you catch them, and, you know, they're pretty, and the brook trout are so soft, I want to, like, pet them and take them home in my pocket and that kind of stuff. But, you know, they're cute. But to me, I want something that's going to fight me back because I guess that's what I'm used to.
Katie
I can kind of see that. You feel like you're kind of matched at a fair match against a bass that you can feel the muscle rippling when you pick it up. And, you know, it's not a delicate fish like a trout.
Jen
Exactly. Yeah, those trout, the first time it's like, you know, I did not have a trout set. I never have to worry about a trout set on a big fish because I was like, whoo, there it goes, right?
Katie
I've seen my fair share of trout thrown over people's shoulders when they're used to setting the hook on bass. And they hook like a five-inch trout and just rip it right out of the water. Yeah, exactly. So when you were fishing for bass at the start, was it maybe a little bit easier, do you think, to learn? Just because I feel like a lot of people, for example, like I grew up with a spin rod, you know, fishing for bass. So when I switched over to fly fishing for trout, because I kind of made that switch at the same time. Like I switched to fly fishing and switched to trout in the same motion. Oh, interesting. So it was like it's it was a completely different, you know, method of fishing, but also dealing with a different fish. So, you know, the technique is completely different. I'm no longer, you know, pulling a lure through the water. I'm now dead drifting a fly I can barely see. But I feel like, you know, streamer fishing is a lot closer to, you know, what a lot of people grew up with, with a spin rod. Do you think that that kind of came more naturally to you? Because it's kind of more obvious, you know, throw something big out, pull it back toward you. you a fish is going to see it and want to eat it versus it's kind of counterintuitive to think that you're going to land you know this tiny fly that you can barely see it can't move you know against the current at all or it's not going to it's not going to be taken by a fish like do you think that made it a little bit easier?
Jen
yeah you know that's a really really interesting question no one's ever asked me that before so thank you for a new question um yeah you know it might have been I grew up on a lake in Wisconsin so for me I didn't even really there was no trout around anywhere. I was not familiar with trout at all. So bass just seemed normal to me. And, you know, I grew up diving, scuba diving. My dad owns a scuba diving service. So I guess I've always known where the fish live because I've seen it from the right. I mean, that was so it was always intuitive to me. I don't know, maybe it probably was easier because bass are so aggressive, you know yeah anything so being able to hook them and catch them I was successful at that early on so
Katie
yeah you're probably right do you do any I just want to dive into this real quick no pun intended but do you do you a lot of freshwater diving or are you saltwater only
Jen
no so my dad lives I grew up in Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and so we dive the shipwrecks of the Great Lakes so it's predominantly all freshwater
Katie
okay that's yeah that's really cool
okay that's yeah that's really cool I've done a handful of freshwater dives and there's usually way less to see, but I really enjoy it because it's like things I'm familiar with. You know, I'm like, oh, I can see this, you know, these species that I know and like how they, how they act underwater. And I never get to see that. Whereas in the saltwater, it's like, there's way more to see, but it's like, I can't, I don't know the names of any of these things I'm seeing. So it's just.
Jen
There's so many too. I mean, how could you possibly know, right?
Katie
It's like just going to like an art museum that you're like, I, this is all pretty, but I don't, I don't understand any of it. So, yeah, I'm really interested in maybe doing some more freshwater diving just because, you know, you feel at home. You're like, this is this is what I've always grown up knowing, but only from the surface. So that's that's really cool.
Jen
Exactly. Plus, you don't have to clean out all your gear very well. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, there's something to be said about diving in saltwater where there are actually fish that, you know, can kill you.
Katie
Right. It's not as creepy, though. You can see him coming from a lot longer away.
Jen
That's true. That's true. There's much more anticipation when that shark is coming to get you.
Katie
Yeah, I've had a bluegill show up. I couldn't see it until it was two feet away from me. Now it's nibbling on my ear or something. It's a little more eerie than having a large fish swim past it 20 feet. You can see it.
Jen
Yeah, that's true. Well, interestingly, since I was a kid diving in Lake Michigan, the zebra mussels have taken over. Oh, really? It is so clear now. It is seriously like diving in the Bahamas or something because really 100 feet. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Unfortunately, you know, it's good for the divers. I mean, I love it that you can sit on the surface and see a wreck that's in 200 feet of water. But at the same time, you know, knowing that that's an invasive species, this is quite the issue.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's the thing about a lot of really clear water is sometimes the murkier waters, what's what's a more intact ecosystem, even though the clear water looks like it's you know clean and healthy and perfect
Jen
agreed yeah for sure I mean when I was a kid in lake Michigan it was like field diving you had like one foot of visibility you were like like trying to feel your way Helen Keller style
Katie
right right I did I just one last tangent I took my rescue certification in a in a reservoir that had very little visibility and so they had to do the missing diver where they put someone on the bottom you have to find them and I I was just like, I really wish I had the, you know, the people in the saltwater get to, you know, they can look from far away and see where the missing diver is. I'm like feeling around in the mud, just hoping I run into somebody. Exactly. It's so stressful. Awesome. Well, so how did you transition from that into the magazine?
Jen
Ah, so, you know, it was a really good career choice. No, actually, when I moved from Ann Arbor back to Chicago, I was going to this fly tying class that was right, like literally blocks from where I lived. And the guy who was leading the fly tying class, he had just started a Midwest fly fishing magazine. It was all online. It was called the Tight Loop Magazine. And so he, at the time I was writing a blog, it wasn't a fishing blog. It was completely a different type of blog. And so he knew about the blog. And so he asked if I would be interested in writing a woman's column for his Midwest Fly Fishing magazine. And, you know, I was relatively new to the sport. Maybe I'd only been in it maybe two years, three years or so at that time. But I was super excited about it. And, oh, yeah, I can write. So I may as well write, you know, a column. How hard could it be? So I wrote a woman's column. But it was really like a double entendre kind of column. So it was, you know, very quirky and very tongue-in-cheeky. And so I started looking around after a couple of years of doing that. I started looking around for a woman's magazine to write for. And it took me like a day, but I realized there wasn't one. And I was really surprised by that. And I guess now looking back, I shouldn't have been so surprised by it, given all that I know about fly fishing now. But I was really surprised. And I thought, well, if I'm missing it, I think that other people are probably missing it too. And so that was in June of 2013. And by September, we had our first magazine.
Katie
So were you were you bothered by kind of the tongue in cheek aspect of the women's column kind of feeling like it wasn't being taken as seriously? Or at that time, was it still just kind of like fun and quirky? And because, you know, the the whole shift into, you know, bringing just as many women in the water as men, like since that hadn't maybe hit yet, was it just, you know, it didn't really bother you?
Jen
You know, I guess I'm from a different era. Right. So I'm 52 years old. And so for me, I just kind of took, you know, I had a number of businesses in the Chicagoland area and they were all. So I was a woman business owner very early on from the time I was 21 in a very male dominated. You know, back in the day, women didn't start businesses and they certainly didn't start businesses from their home because there was no Internet. There was no computer. There was none of that. Right. And so I've always kind of felt like I had to forge my own way. And so, you know, taking it kind of tongue in cheek and being like very double entendre kind of thing was just kind of the what I had grown out of. I had worked at a couple of hospitals and all of my bosses were men and the culture was completely different. It was a culture that didn't really respect women the way that they do now. So, you know, and that's encouraging for me having daughters and now granddaughter, right, that the whole culture has changed. but specifically in fly fishing and fly fishing has lagged behind obviously it's starting to catch up now and and so I guess it didn't really bother me and I guess that I you know the way that I wrote was the way that I wrote because I knew that that's what they expected of a woman's column you know it was just kind of par for the course at that time
Katie
yeah yeah
Jen
it didn't bother me. I did I like it all the time no but am I a really good double entendre writer I am you know so if anybody didn't give me the benefit of the doubt in my writing it was me because I was the one that was writing it right so but but we've come a long way baby so things have changed and going back now it would I would find that that would be it would be the same as maybe the page six chicks were and used to be in the drake magazine right where it was just women in you know a swimsuit or whatever and we wouldn't portray that now anymore in fly fishing which is a special direction. Yeah, I don't think that would fly these days. No, but I will say that in my first magazine, the first digital magazine that I had, I had Hank Patterson write an article and it was a spoof article and I had him write it on purpose and it was how to take, how to have the perfect date on the river written by a guy, right? In true Hank fashion, he wrote like, bring his favorite sandwich and open up his beer for him and, you know, and then the whole thing so it was really kind of funny setting the stage and then the last part was and now that he's passed out on the side of the river you can really get in some good fishing right it was funny because our first magazine came out and this woman blasted it on email I mean on facebook like it hadn't even been out maybe an hour and she was like this is why women will never be taken serious in this sport and blah blah blah blah and I was like you know that's a spoof right and she was like well so it was really kind of funny she was like and then I never heard from her again you know but I was like come on as much as this is an issue that we have to be aware of we still have to kind of take it in stride right I mean sometimes I think that you know the the pendulum has has gone so far to the other side now that we're offended by everything yeah that's no good for anybody either you know I mean it's supposed to be fun I always say fly fishing is fishing and fishing is supposed to be fun. So come on already guys. I mean, today on my Facebook page, I posted something about a guide school and people have been up in arms all day long. And I'm thinking they're just fighting like crazy among each other. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, please, don't you have anything better to do? You know, I looked at it this morning and then I looked at it tonight and I was like, holy cow, it's been going on all day long by the same people. Don't you have something else to do with your life other than get online and fight about something? That's ridiculous. This is fishing. This isn't something that's, you know, going to like solve the world's climate problems.
Katie
Right. And there comes a point where, you know, I don't want to make it sound like, you know, women haven't faced a lot of obstacles within the fly fishing world. But there comes a point where, you know, just being angry for the sake of being angry isn't doing anything. And especially, you know, I we've come so far and not that we're necessarily right where we want to be. But just being angry for the sake of being angry just gets tiring. It does. I don't have have a little fun. Like, I feel like the spoof article is the one way that that can still kind of like the column that you used to write. The one way it can still survive in today's world, I feel like is as a spoof article. You know, everyone's just kind of making fun of the fact that that used to be a serious thing. And we can all kind of gather around the fact that it's kind of funny to look back on now.
Jen
Yeah, right. I mean, you know, and it's a great, it's a great barometer of where we were and where we've come, right? So it's easy to get, I find a lot of women and men get bogged down in, you know, their own high horse and they're stuck in their ways. And so they don't see the actual progress that's happened. And so it's good to look back and be able to say, wow, that's where we were. And look, it's only been like maybe eight years, 10 years. And look at the change in the landscape of fly fishing. It's so completely different now. So that's a good thing.
Katie
So at this point, it's a digital magazine?
Jen
Yeah, it started out digital.
Katie
Okay. And at what point did you, you've switched to both digital and print now, correct?
Jen
Yes. So we've always kind of been digital and print. The beginning magazine was a page turning magazine that you could go online and you could actually it looked like a magazine you could turn okay and we wrote all that code here in in-house so that was our own proprietary software and so but when we went to a print magazine our studies and our statistics showed that a long format blog did a lot better in seo it got our content out there further into our audiences and so so when our our print magazine came out, which was like three years in or so, we switched to long format blog and we took away the digital magazine for the first year. We did a digital magazine and the print magazine, and they were both completely separate. But people got so confused over what was done digital and what was done print. And I was confused and it was a lot more work. And so I was just like, you know what, we're just going to do the print magazine. That's enough work the way it is. We're just going to go with that. We're just going to call it good.
Katie
So were they, I know you said they were completely separate. Do you just mean that, you know you could be subscribed to one and not the other or was it a completely different content like if I opened up the digital magazine page one would be different from page one of the print magazine completely different
Jen
yeah it was a completely magazine with different articles and different titles and different covers and everything everything was completely different so the people that subscribed to our free magazine saw one content and then people that bought the print magazine subscription saw something completely different
Katie
so what was was that transition like going or not the transition I guess but diving into the print space what what was that like how many hurdles did you have to overcome to get to get into print because I feel like anyone can can go online and start something digital and obviously you said that it was actually you know the magazine form which has got to be a little bit more complicated than just starting a blog but I feel like it's you know I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to start a print magazine.
Jen
Yeah, it was a huge learning curve for me. In fact, it was so overwhelming that my managing editor, I said to her, I don't know how to do this. I don't even know where to start. And she said, well, you eat an elephant one bite at a time. And I said, who eats an elephant? But it really was like that. You know, you just have to start stepping through it and you have to have it as a goal. So my goal was to have this beautiful print magazine. That was a goal of mine. And when you have your heart set on something and you're so focused on it, it's just going to happen because that's all you're obsessed about. That's all you think about. You're working towards that. Whereas if it's just kind of like an idea out in the ether somewhere, you're probably never going to make it happen. So, you know, come hell or high water, I was going to have this print magazine out. By that time, people had already been asking all the time, like, where can we buy your magazine? You know, how can I get a subscription to your print magazine? And I'd be like, well, we don't have a print magazine. And they'd be like, When, where are you coming out with one? So it was really a smart, lucky business plan that we had the digital first because we were never going to be a print magazine. And then just as we already had the audience, which was easy to get because it was all online. Um, then we just got to the point where we had the audience already. So when the print magazine came out, we already had an audience to buy it as opposed to trying to come out with a magazine that's brand new and it's so expensive to print and then trying to find people to buy it. We already had that in place. which was really, really helpful for us.
Katie
So is that kind of necessary when you're, because I assume with the print magazine, you need to go around to fly shops and kind of convince them that they should carry your magazine. Does having that following kind of work in your favor in terms of convincing people to carry your print magazine?
Jen
Yeah, it was super easy because people already knew about us. So we never really went to fly shops to ask them to cover it, you know, to carry it. They kind of have come to us. It took the distributors for Barnes & Noble's one day to decide that they wanted to sell our magazine, which was really, really neat. And then Orvis has always been a good partner of ours. And so when we came out with the print magazine, they jumped on board and carried it at their stores right away.
Katie
And you have a good quality print magazine. I don't know what the technical differences between a good magazine and a lower quality magazine are, but you can just see it. you when you pick it up and I've noticed more of a trend in that direction now there's a there's a lot more people that are trying to release magazines that are more more like a coffee table book like something you want to have sitting out and your guests might come over and flip through it
Jen
yeah like a bookazine kind of thing yeah yeah you know I think that all the trends in magazines that I've read about say that the only way that a magazine is going to actually survive is if it's a niche market, a very high end kind of magazine. And I didn't know that when I came out with this magazine, I knew nothing about printing, nothing about papers, nothing about covers and weight of paper and all that kind of stuff. So I just kind of made the magazine that I would have wanted to read. And I think that was a good thing for me, because if I would have had like a publishing background or a magazine background, then I would have probably made a more economical magazine that It would have been more of like your turn and burn kind of magazine, the one that comes out, you know, and it's not as much work and it's not as expensive. But it wouldn't have been as pretty and it wouldn't have been, you know, recycled papers and it wouldn't have been vegetable inks and it wouldn't have such a large format, you know. I had no idea it was going to cost so much to ship a magazine. Two pounds, right? I don't think that you learn, you know, afterwards. But it's been a learning experience. The problem is that once you make a magazine like that, you can't just be like, oh, well, I'm just going to change it to a smaller magazine that's going to cost less. People are like, no, no, no, no, no. We like your magazine, we're attached to it.
Katie
Yeah. There’s just something different between a magazine like that. I would not feel comfortable having a magazine like that in my house and just flipping through it. You know, I kind of feel like I have to actually read through each article, whereas, you know, we've subscribed to a couple of magazines over the year just to get like keep our airplane or are airline points valid still or something like that. It's like some of those, you know, you might open up and flip through, see if anything catches your attention, and then maybe just becomes, you know, kindling on the next campaign trip or something. But there's a difference between that and the kind of magazines that are coming out now that you really do feel like you should, you know, treat it like a book and read it from cover to cover.
Jen
Yeah, and, you know, and too, that was one of the reasons that I made it so big and pretty too is because it's a lot of work. Each edition is a lot of work. And so I didn't want a magazine that people were going to just, you know, page through and then toss away. It's too much work for that. So I did want it to sit around and be something that people would actually would keep. And it's funny. There's one woman. She actually built a bookshelf in her living room just to house our magazines.
Katie
Well, that's a nice compliment.
Jen
I know, right? So surprising, but so nice.
Katie
And so something we haven't mentioned that I'm sure most people are probably familiar with that magazine, but it's it's a women's magazine, which I should have mentioned. But do you just talk about that for a little bit? And, you know, your philosophy that it's not, you know, an anti men magazine or anything like that.
Jen
But it is definitely for women and by women. Right. So it is it is definitely a fly fishing magazine first. And a lot of our readers are men for a good reason, because we tell a good story and fishing is fishing. It's not, you know, it shouldn't be gender neutral. It should be gender neutral. But that being said, all of our authors, or 99% of our authors, are female. So, and all of the women that are on, everybody that is an editor of our magazine is also female. So, it is by women for women, but our tagline is empowering women, not ignoring men. Because we love the male angler, obviously. We respect the male angler. A lot of, I would say the vast majority of women get involved in the sport, get involved in the sport by some male counterpart that has brought them there. So the very vocal minority of men who, you know, say things like, we don't want women on the river. You know, what happens at the fishing lodge stays at the fishing lodge. That's a very small, small percentage of the men in fly fishing. The vast majority of men in fly fishing want more women in the sport. They recognize that growth is good. And they take their, you know, female counterparts out fishing, which we really respect.
Katie
So who makes up the small minority of your male contributors? What separates those articles that makes them, I guess, accepted by the magazine versus just any Joe Schmo submitting an article?
Jen
Sure. Well, let me tell you. So Hank Patterson, I reached out to him and he wrote one, right? And it was a poof article because we wanted it to be funny. And so he was one of our male authors. there have been there has been one man who wrote a poetry article which was beautiful and we put that in there there's a man who in an upcoming article an upcoming edition is coming out he wrote a a tribute to his wife who died and she you know the river was their place and it's beautifully written and so we're gonna you know it has beautiful photos and so we're gonna include that I will tell you we have had some guys submit articles to us that's like let me tell you how to take a woman fishing and those are not articles that we would ever publish because they're terrible.
Katie
So basically you'll you'll you accept the ones that are basically just in line with everything else that you're already doing and if they just fit seamlessly in then then you'll include them.
Jen
Exactly. Yep we will. I would say that it has to be a spectacular article. Men have a lot of outlets that they can already write to. Women have less. That's why we exist.
Katie
Fair enough. And what feedback have you gotten on it, both from men and women?
Jen
Oh, you know, I would have to say that there have only, over the eight years that we've been around, there have only been maybe three people who have written to us and said negative things about it. They have all used, and we've made them so mad actually created fake email addresses just so they could send it. Cowards. You know, I would say overwhelmingly, the audience loves our magazine, you know, because we don't bash men. We're not out there going like rah, rah, women. We only want women. That's not what we're about. We are just a beautiful magazine that happens to be female authors telling the everyday angler story. And I think that that's one of the different things that we do that the vast majority of magazines do not to as well is we tell the everyday angler story. So we don't have the regurgitated articles that you will see in a lot of magazines out there and not just fly fishing, but in magazines in general, where your professional, the professional writers are just rewriting the same content in a different way and sticking it in another magazine. We're not going to read that. Our stories are very, very relational because they're written by everyday women who have a story to tell and everybody's story is different and so and everybody's story is relational and everybody can relate to that so that's what we do that's what our specialty is
Katie
and I'm I'm sure that there are probably some people out there too who maybe have the misconception that that means that every article is about you know like what it's like to be a woman who fishes and I can see how that sounds really boring but contrary to popular belief you know you could be a woman and just write about fly fishing and it, you know, you could potentially not even know, you know, that it, that it is a female author, you know, it's just the same thing that you'd read anywhere else, but happens to be from a woman's perspective, not necessarily about being a woman.
Jen
Right. And it's, and it's interesting that you say that in that way, because, you know, when our magazine came out, I got an email from a man and he sent me an email and he said, Hey, in fact, he just reminded me of this and it was years ago. He said, Hey, someone forwarded me your magazine. And I just want to say how much I love it. And, you know, it has just a different kind of feel. The stories have a very relational, very different kind of feel. Why is that? And I wrote back to him and I said, well, did you notice that all of the authors are female? And he said, no, I didn't notice that. But that makes sense now. Women and men, we fish for different reasons a lot of times. And we're just, you know, as much as we like to say that we're the same, we're still different, you know? And so we come at things differently. And so my authors tend to be very gracious and very kind and more relational in their stories. Whereas a lot of some of the other magazines would be more technical and be more, you know, matter of fact kind of thing. Whereas we tell a story in a different way. We're much more emotionally involved and we're much more, we tell a lot more of the different types of things that are going on when we're out there. And we fish for different reasons. A lot of times, you know, our stories have a lot of, you know, a woman who will take her child out fishing and what the day was like and with pictures of like the food that they ate in the river. And it's not just your gripping grins, you know, that you'll see in a lot of the other magazines. So I think that gives us a different kind of feel as well.
Katie
Yeah, I think that's becoming more popular now too, just in general. I think overall people, you know, you can only read so many stories about how many fish you caught before it starts to get a little boring. Like if I wasn't there, it's gonna, you're gonna have to write something really interesting for me to care, you know, how long the fish was. And I've noticed that just, you know, talking to my friends, you know, I did an episode not too long ago about, you know, some of my favorite fishing memories with one of my friends. And a lot of our stories ended with like oh yeah and we caught some fish and like moved on to the next story it was like that that just did not even factor into a lot of what we were talking about because you know we spent 20 minutes talking about the hike in and then forgot to mention that we caught fish once we got there
Jen
yeah exactly because the fish I think for women a lot of times the fish is just a it's a byproduct of an actual day outside on a beautiful river with our friends right and so you know and that exactly is the essence of the difference in our magazine and other magazines
Katie
well I think it goes too in that the the the man you were talking about there who emailed you and was like this is really refreshing I like this that it it could easily be enjoyed by you know both women and men I don't want to read something from a woman just for the sake of having read something by a woman but I think for the most part historically the majority of fly fishing writing has been by men so I could see men even being like hey this just sounds different I'm just ready for something new like it doesn't doesn't even matter to me that it's by a woman or by a man, but just I've read the same story a thousand times and this one's just different. So I want to read this now.
Jen
Right. Exactly. And we have a lot of men who write into us and say how much they like the magazine. And we have a lot of women who write into us and say, I can never get to my, to my magazine. It comes in the mail and my husband steals it first, you know, I like to hear things like that because after all, it's a fishing magazine. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you know, reading our magazine at all.
Katie
Right. And I know you said that, you know, a lot of women like to focus on things like maybe fishing with their children but it's like you know men obviously enjoy that too I mean so many men love taking both their sons and daughters out fishing so it might not be something that a lot of men think to write about but still you know enjoy reading about because they can relate to it
Jen
for sure yeah and that was one a man who wrote I had a husband and wife who wrote an article for us and it was just about that it was about taking their child out fishing and it was written by both of them and we just posted his photo not long ago on our Instagram page and it had huge, huge following it and interaction because it was a dad in his waders with his little baby on his chest with a bottle in her mouth, you know, and he was just standing out there kind of holding the baby, feeding the baby on the side of the river and his waders, you know, that's cool. We like that. You know, the men out there are great men in this sport.
Katie
Uh, so do you get your photographs strictly from women too, or, is that kind of all across the board?
Jen
Nope. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman submitting photos to us at all. We normally, though, ask that the author who writes the story send in their own photos because it makes a much more cohesive story. And a lot of times because a woman is writing the story, her husband or her boyfriend will have taken the photo. So a lot of times we have male photographers in our magazine. In fact, my staff photographer is actually a male.
Katie
Okay. How does the print magazine kind of, because I know you said the digital magazine has since turned into just a blog. How does that compare to the actual print magazine in terms of the type of content that comes out?
Jen
Yeah, so the online blog format, it does have some of our articles in there in a long format. So some of the photos out of the magazine and then the words out of the magazine. but our online content for the most part is a lot of blog stuff like why I would choose to go to guide school even though I never want to or why I would consider going to guide school even though I never want to be a guide or five things to wear under your waiters or that kind of stuff is what our blog format for the most is our content that we just push out onto social media and put up on our site and then we as a magazine comes out we filter out a couple of the big major articles we put those up on our site as well.
Katie
Okay so the blog is a little bit more short form maybe like some tips and tactics little blurbs here and there about different things and the magazine is more of a long form probably more thought-provoking experience-driven stories I assume.
Jen
Absolutely yep.
Katie
And how often does the magazine come out?
Jen
It comes out quarterly so four times a year.
Katie
Okay and has that been the case since you first launched it?
Jen
Our first year was two times a year.
Katie
Okay. And you've ramped it up to four.
Jen
Yep. I mean, it's not, it doesn't always come out when it's supposed to things and because of other things happening, but we try to get it out four times a year. You get four magazines in your subscription is what I should say, but they may come out very close together or very far apart.
Katie
Yeah. You know, not exactly always in June when they're supposed to, I'm still new at this. Do you have a lot of regular contributors or are you, Do you have people just kind of filtering in, sending you stuff? Like how does that all work?
Jen
Sure. So we have some women who write for us all the time. I have one woman on staff who's one of my editors. She writes almost in every edition. She writes an article. My managing editor, she usually writes an article as well. In the last couple of editions, I've written an article just because I've been somewhere that's been really cool that I really liked and wanted to write about. But for the most part, we have new people that write to us all the time. And in the beginning, I used to reach out and ask people to, hey, would you write an article for us? Hey, I like what you're doing. Would you consider writing an article? But now we just have people that submit articles to us all the time. And I love that. If you have a story, put it down on paper and send it in. Put it in an email. Put it in a Word document. Send it in to us. I want to read it. If it's a great story, we want to publish it for you.
Katie
That's awesome. It seems like you've really grown pretty quickly. I know we were talking earlier about just how things have changed, but I didn't want to get into just the stereotypical, like, you know, how has being a woman changed in the industry over the years? But to be fair, you are a women-focused magazine, so I do feel like that is kind of a relevant topic of how far we've come. But you said you started like eight years ago, and it seems like that's a pretty short window to have made as much progress as it seems like you have.
Jen
Yeah, I guess it's been seven years now. Yeah, you know, I'd like to say that that was part of my business plan, but I just got really lucky in that I was missing something at about the same time everybody else was. And maybe the magazines helped stir that and give women a platform to actually be able to write their stories. And, you know, at about the same time, social media was becoming a really big thing. And so, you know, I think it was a whole culmination of things that have propelled women forward. Women have always been in this sport. Fly fishing is what it is today because of the women that have done great things along the way to get us where we are. But I think in today's day and age now with social media, women see a lot more women out there. And, you know, especially with Dunn, I think that we've broken down the barrier that people thought that it was too expensive or that it was too hard or it was too time consuming. and that you needed to be a professional before you went out there. You needed to take all these classes. And I think now people look at it more like yoga. I think I'm going to dip my toe in there and try it and see if I like it. And it looks like it might be easier than I thought it was in the past because look at all these everyday women that are just doing it out there and having fun. Maybe this is something I can get involved in too. And I think that that's been the major reason why it's grown exponentially. You know, like five years ago, six years ago, there was no Athena and Artemis women's fly shop. There was no fishy wear, right? There was no United Women on the Fly. There was no Dun Magazine. And look at all these businesses that have come up, you know, just in the last five or six years that are all women-owned businesses and catering to the women's market.
Katie
Do you think social media has been a net positive for the industry as a whole or specifically women in the industry?
Jen
Yeah, I guess that my opinion on that would change given the day.
Katie
I feel you on that. Sometimes I'm like, this is so amazing. There's so many people empowering everybody. And then the next day, it's just a dumpster fire.
Jen
Exactly, right. And I think that's the nature of social media, right? Especially in the winter when people aren't out fishing as much. I think that they tend to feel cooped up and they tend to be a little bit more like, I just need to get out and I'm going to go online and look at fishing. And oh, that person says something I don't like. And I'm just going to go land blast them because I'm mad anyways. and I think that it's been overall I think it's been really good for women in the sport because we get to see a lot more women out there you know when I first started I heard that there was another woman that went to the fly shop but I didn't see her for the first couple months that I even fished there I didn't even know that other women existed I thought we were new to the sport and we're not new to the sport we've been in it since the 15th century right I mean you know it's just now that, you know, I think maybe during the industrial revolution, women were always outside. They were always, pioneer women had to fish, they had to hunt, they had to do everything to keep their families alive, you know. It wasn't until I think the industrial revolution where we sent women back inside and they became these dainty little things like you'd faint and have the vapors and all this stuff because they're corset. So now I think that women are coming back into their own and standing up. And, you know, we were never kind of like, hey, look at me, I'm fishing. And now people are kind of like, hey, look, I can do this too. Women are like, I can do this too. You know, and here's a picture of my beautiful fish. And I think it's been good for us overall. Do I think that all of social media is good? No, obviously not. There's a lot out there that we could complain about, but that doesn't do anybody any good complaining about it. So let's just, you know, if you don't like what you see on social media, just unfollow them. Just don't like it. Just move on. You don't have to blast somebody. I think that what we need today in women's social media and fly fishing is we need to support the women who are out there fighting the good fight every single day. Those women need you to say something positive. The other women don't need you to say something negative.
Katie
Yeah, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier with, you know, people look for something to be outraged about. And I feel like that kind of branches off into this too. You know, just searching for people to, you know, hate or, you know, say bad things about or whatever, whatever the reasoning may be. And to be fair, some of those are probably justified, not in the way that it's handled a lot of the time. But, you know, I, you know, I'm, of course, guilty of seeing things online that I'm like, I don't like this. I think it's, you know, disingenuous or whatever. But there's also, yeah, I see it and I'm able to just say I just don't want to see that again, you know. Right. And I think that people have become a little bit more comfortable voicing their opinions, which I think is what has caused all that negativity online. It's not that people weren't always thinking these negative thoughts about people that they didn't like, but now they have a way to voice that opinion to the entire world.
Jen
Oh, and a way that they can voice it to the entire world and still be a coward sitting on the couch, right? And I think that's where part of the problem comes in and that, you know, it's easy to just get online and say some negative stuff. But I think it's harder to get online and always say something positive. But I think that that's what our industry needs, especially as the women industry. You know, we are positive people. This is a positive sport. We should remain in the positive space.
Katie
Yeah. Did you do you listen to April Vokey's podcast?
Jen
Yeah, I was just on April's podcast.
Katie
Oh, were you? I probably heard you on there. I've lost track of where I've heard you at this point.
Jen
Yeah, I was talking about Darcizzle and the whole bikini thing.
Katie
That's actually what I was about to ask about is if you had listened to that interview. There's a fine line, I feel like, between trying to get women into the sport and not portraying women as something to not take seriously. And I don't really know where that line is, but I feel like it hovers somewhere around that interview.
Jen
Yeah, you know, and so I said on April's podcast, because that's what we talked about. First of all, I was outraged by that podcast. I thought that was the most disrespectful thing I had ever heard, you know, when her boyfriend was on there. I'm like, is this her boyfriend or is this her pimp? I'm not quite sure. But, you know, that being said, though, I, you know, for me, I don't care if you fish in a swimsuit. I don't care what you wear when you fish. I could care less. But if you're doing it just for the likes, then at least own that. At least say that that's what you're doing.
Katie
That'd be kind of refreshing, honestly, to just hear someone say like, you know what, I make my money from this and this is the most lucrative way to do it.
Jen
Yeah. Okay. There's no, there's no shame in that. We should not shame someone for that, right? For making money in whatever way they want. This is America. You should be able to do that. Would that be something that I would do? Probably not. But you know, if someone else wants to do that, that's fine. What I have an issue with are these women who will go out there and wear like a bikini or do the fish bra thing just for the sake of likes. And then, and, and then say, no, no, no, that's not why I did it. Really? I'm pretty sure that's why you did it.
Katie
Yeah. I, there was one of my, one of my buddies had sent me a picture not long ago, kind of complaining about the same thing because it was someone who was saying like, why, why do people keep, you know, making bikinis sexual and, you know, in fly fishing pictures. Like if I want to wear a swimsuit when I fish, like that's totally fine. It's hot out. And I totally agree with that. But then if you scroll back to pictures, she's got, you know, her butt sticking out a picture from behind and like very clearly that's the objective and you know just like you said just own up to it at that point I don't think anybody's gonna care if you're doing that you should just own it you know
Jen
and if someone's got a problem with you at least you own it it doesn't matter if they like you or not who cares
Katie
right yeah but at the same time you know if it gets more people into it then you know if that if that gets a couple more I don't want to say you know normal normal fishermen but fishermen who just want to who never thought they could get into the sport and are now encouraged to do so then you know all the power to them
Jen
right you know that's what jules mcqueen said that to me once she's a she's a hunter and she said you know people ask all the time about you know the girls in the sport that are just in it just for the likes and the Instagram and they want to be influencers. And she said, you know, time will tell. Time will weed out those who are legitimate and those who aren't. She said, and I've gotten to the point where, and I think this is so wise of her. She said, I've gotten to the point where I feel like if that girl, even if she's completely illegitimate, she doesn't, she's never hunted in her life, you know, or in our case, she's never caught her own fish in her whole life. If she gets one other woman involved in the sport, then I have to be completely behind her, you know, and I thought that was so wise of Jules to take that, that stand for that, because you know, that makes some sense. And it really kind of puts it in perspective, right? Then you're not really concerned about how many likes they have. You're like, well, if she's getting more women involved in our sport, then go for it. You know, maybe she's not, but that's not something I have to worry about then. Right. Right. I just have to be there, you know, and if I don't like what she's wearing or I don't like what she's portraying, I just don't like it. I just unfollow. Not a big deal, you know?
Katie
Yeah, I do have to remind myself of that too. Like when I see something like that and it bothers me, I'm like, but why do I care? Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Like who, who is this person hurting? Right. I mean, at the most, yeah, themselves or, and if you could maybe even make the argument that they're giving women a bad name, but there are so many women out there who are, you know, very obviously completely legitimate at this point that, I, I would really be shocked to find out that a couple you know bad apples really tainted the the whole group of women out there for everybody else like I don't think that's the case
Jen
yeah do you really think that one woman or even 50 women who are in the sport for the wrong reason are going to give the rest of us who are legitimate a bad name
Katie
no I'd sure hope not yeah but exactly but yeah I mean it's it doesn't seem worth I mean I here we are talking about it but at the end of the day I don't think it's worth worrying about right like you said time will time will tell and things will things will eventually even out to where they're supposed to be I'm sure yeah I think so too awesome well do you want to just finish up by maybe talking about where done magazine is going and and the blog like if you have any future plans or if you're just going to kind of stay on course?
Jen
yeah so well the plan is to stay on course and put out some really high quality magazines as always we have some really good stories that are coming up in our next edition the next edition is hitting mailboxes now so that's been it's been always fun to see a magazine kind of come together I never really like title a magazine it just and I never really I shouldn't even tell anybody this, but I don't really sit down and say like, okay, well, this is going to be the theme and these are what all the articles are going to be. It's amazing to me how the articles come in and they just kind of meld together, you know, make a great magazine. So we'll continue on with the magazine. As far as where we're going, I think that 2020 is going to see some changes, but it's going to see some changes outside of fly fishing. So as a company, Dun is going to stay the course for fly fishing, but you might see some different offshoots into the outdoor arena. We also partner with Heather Hodgson from United Women on the Fly and do the Rippinhoppers Adventure Road Trip every year. This next year, we're going to start off since it's 2020. We're going to start off in Orvis's headquarters in Manchester, Vermont, since it's 50-50 by 2020. And we haven't quite decided if we're going to go up or we're going to go down over there on the eastern part of the United States. But that's our goal. And then, you know, now it's show season. So now it's time to get out there and speak and further our brand and network with a bunch of really cool women and men. I love the Mayfly Project. I look forward to, you know, networking with them in 2020. and there was a man who was at the Denver fly show who I was really intrigued with he had a shirt on and it said it's gonna get dirty or it's gonna get ugly but it's gonna get done and so I thought well you know what that's gonna I said to the guy who was wearing the shirt I said oh my gosh can I take a picture of that shirt because I want to make that shirt and he was telling me that it was his friend's shirt and his friend does these like crazy like I don't know there's some kind of I don't exercise at all so but there's some kind of iron man out there that's like a double marathon or a double Ironman or something. And this guy does that. He does these crazy physical challenges. And then he donates and he raises money and he donates like to children that need help or that are disabled or these really great causes. And so I sent him an email and I'm super excited to like somehow work with him to make that shirt so that it's a give back to the charities that he supports. So, you know, stuff like that. We look to do a lot more networking and a lot more conservation work and a lot more give backs in 2020.
Katie
And I assume the offshoots that you're talking about, those will also be women-focused, just not fully fly fishing?
Jen
Correct, yep.
Katie
Awesome. And do you have any shows coming up that, like, if people want to meet you, like where they can find you, the upcoming shows?
Jen
So the weekend of the 23rd of this month, January, we will be in Chicago. So come out. We are starting a women's event there. So we have Jerry from Athena and Artemis. We have Linda Leary from Fishy Wear. We have Heather Hudson from United Women on the Fly. And then I have a booth there. And so we will all be speaking. We'll be doing women's events. We'll have a breakfast and a social, kind of like what we do at the fly shows at a conventional Chicagoland fishing travel and outdoor expo. And so I'm looking forward to that because I just moved from Chicago three years ago. So a lot of my friends are still there. And then after that, we'll go to Atlanta. That's the end of this month. like the 28th or 20, I guess maybe it's the 20. No, it's the 30th of September. Um, the 31st and the first of this month, February 1st, we'll be in Atlanta at the fly fishing show. And, those are the ones that we're doing so far. So we usually do Edison, but this year we're doing Chicago instead.
Katie
I just realized once you started talking about the dates that this episode is going to air after those dates, but, but maybe some teasers for the following year. Cause I'm sure you're not done with shows after this year
Jen
You can find all of our schedules and stuff. We'll be putting them up online shortly.
Katie
Awesome. And where can people find you on social media or, or on the web to subscribe to the magazine?
Jen
Sure. So done it's like spelled like the mayfly D U N done magazine.com. And you can follow us on social media done magazine, or you can follow me personally at Jen Ripple.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Jen, I really appreciate you coming on today.
Jen
Sorry I coughed in your ear. I was at the Denver Fly show and I just have not gotten better since.
Katie
That's okay. People will feel like they're right there with us when you're coughing in their ears. All right. Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening and thanks so much for coming on.
Jen
Thank you so much, Katie. It's nice to talk to you.
Katie
All right, and that'll do it. As always, if you liked what you heard, go ahead and go over to the Wild Initiative podcast. You can subscribe there and get my shows biweekly on Thursdays, as well as all of Sam's other shows throughout the week. You can also find all my episodes on fishuntamed.com in addition to backcountry fly fishing articles. You can find me on social media under my name, Katie Burgert, on Go Wild or at fishuntamed on Instagram. And I will see you all back here in two weeks. All right. Bye, everybody.
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