Ep 190: Trailwork, Solo Camping, and Wild Fish, with Michael Garrigan
Michael Garrigan is a teacher, writer, and angler. Though he lives along the Susquehanna River now, he has also spent a lot of time fishing around the backcountry of the western U.S. In this episode, we talk about the fishing opportunities in eastern PA, some of his big adventures out west, the benefits and downsides of camping alone, what it’s like to work on a trail crew.
Instagram: @raft_man
Website: www.mgarrigan.com
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 190 with Michael Garrigan on trail work, solo camping, and wild fish. all right well I always start with a background on my guests and how they got introduced to fishing and fly fishing specifically so how did you get introduced to the outdoors and and fly fishing?
Michael
Yeah, oddly through reading. I was a big reader when I was a kid. So in high school, I somehow came across David James Duncan's book, The River Why. And I was like, man, it's all about fly fishing, like the main character, Gus. And I just fell in love with that story and that character. And I was like, I want to do that. And I didn't really live in a very outdoorsy family, but I did grow up near the Susquehanna River. And so a couple of my buddies and I would just kind of go down to the river and not really know what we were doing. And, you know, I think I had like an old fiberglass fly rod that my grandfather gave me, you know, and I just would kind of fling it around. And yeah, and that wasn't until through college, I kind of dabbled in it a little bit. And then it was really after I graduated college that I started doing trail work for a couple of years and lived in places where fly fishing was pretty sweet and kind of was surrounded by people who fly fished and kind of learned through there. But yeah, it kind of started with the river why. That's what made me want to go outside and fly fish. And Gary Snyder, the writer Gary Snyder was all about like being outside writing poetry about like trail work and stuff. So it was like writers who I wanted to be.
Katie
That's a really interesting book to pick up as a non-angler. I don't feel like I know anyone who's read it who didn't pick it up because they enjoy fishing.
Michael
I think I read the Brothers K first because it's just an epic novel. And then I read The River Why, which is much more about fly fishing, you know, so I think that's kind of how I backtracked into it a little bit.
Katie
How much did you progress by the time you actually started to surround yourself with other fly fishers and, you know, really, really ramped up? Were you still kind of struggling your way through it at that time? Or had you kind of gotten the knack of it?
Michael
Yeah, I guess I'm pretty much self taught. I spent many years just not really knowing what I was doing and fly fishing just because I was I found myself in these beautiful places. So after I graduated college, I I did trail work up in Maine, in Colorado, in California. And so like in Maine, I was like, I literally lived on a pond in Baxter State Park, and there'd be brook trout, you know, rising to the hex hatch and stuff like that. So I just like, it's like, I should probably fish for that, you know, and I just kind of stumbled my way into these little places that taught me different aspects of fly fishing. And then finally, I like when I moved back home to I kind of found friends and community that that they were other anglers and I finally started learning from other people so like my casting is definitely manageable but I probably picked up some bad habits just because I you know taught myself I didn't really know what I was doing for many years I just kind of figured it out as I went
Katie
so tell me more about the trail work how like how long was a season for you and what kind of work did you do when you were out there
Michael
yeah so just to like take a step back I graduated from Pitt with a writing degree and I didn't really know what I wanted to do with that except for I wanted to like see the world and so I signed up for a trail crew because once again like I knew writers like Gary Snyder and stuff had done it so I was like I'm gonna do that as well so I would do like seasons like so I would do like maybe like nine to twelve months like some of them were a year long but most were like you know six to nine month seasons where I would like I'd get hired on as a crew and then you know Baxter State Park I did a season, Rocky Mountain National Park, I did a season. And then I spent a year on the Pacific Crest Trail in California as well. And then I went back to Maine for my last season. And so really it was just, you know, you'd travel to these places and you'd go on these hitches that were like 10 day hitches usually. So you'd go into the backcountry for 10 days at a time, work, do trail work, you know, building rock bars and bridges and, you know, brushing trails and then, you know, set up in a backcountry camp. And then you did four days off where you'd shower and eat a bunch of food as much as you could and then go do it again. So like, it was sweet. It was a great, great way to spend my early 20s because I saw a lot of really cool areas and really cool places.
Katie
I have to ask, was that the best job you've ever had? I only ask because I and all my friends like had some job usually between like late high school and, you know, a year or two after college, that was just, it was that kind of thing. Like you're dirtbagging it. You have like all your best friends, you live with them. You're making like barely any money, but it's just like the best time. And it could never support a family now, but you look back and you're like, man, that was, that was the time. Was that your job for you?
Michael
A hundred percent. Like it was, it was as formative as college was, you know? In fact, I probably learned more over those three to four years of trail work than I did in college. You know, it was the perfect thing for me to do in my early twenties. I got to everything I owned fit in my backpack, you know, and I slept in a tent almost every night and I didn't know where I was going to sleep most nights. And I met so many cool people and it taught me how to be resilient and to like have to just kind of go with the flow. And would I want to do it now as a 43 year old? Probably not. Maybe maybe for a week or two at a time. But, you know, during the early my early 20s, it was it was the best job ever. Yeah, for sure.
Katie
Yeah, I feel bad for kids who have whatever structured high school life. They go right off to college and then take their bigwig finance job right out of college or something. I feel like you missed the opportunity to have that job. Because like you said, as a full-fledged adult now, you've got a partner and kids and all this stuff. You don't want to go back and be in that moment, but really glad it happened when it was the right time for it.
Michael
Yeah, I learned so much about myself and how to be an adult. You know, I grew, did so much growing up in those four years, you know? And I look back and I mean, it's totally shifted the trajectory of my life in so many good ways, you know, and instilled like a love of the wilderness and of fly fishing and all the things that kind of surround fly fishing. It's that's like the seed right there. I couldn't have asked for a better, better experience. I sometimes I wish I would have done it before I had gone to college because I probably would have been way more focused in my college years had I kind of known who I was and what I wanted but you know I'm not going to complain at how it turned out
Katie
right I bet you got kind of a I don't know I did a diverse set of skills fly fishing wise you know there's lots of people who travel around the U.S. and have fished in many different places but it's usually in the context of like I take a trip somewhere I fish I come home it sounds like you kind of got to immerse yourself in a lot of different styles like between the the northeast you said the mountain west like Colorado and and then the west coast but you were there for like many many months not just I'd take a trip out there. Did you notice, you know, differences between these places or anything that you, any skills you gained that were based around immersing yourself in these different locations and cultures?
Michael
For sure. Once again, I kind of blundered my way into it. That's kind of how I approach life is I'm just stumbling into places and then like embracing it for what it is. I think I had like one five weight rod, which was like a packable LL Bean five weight, you know, that was like, you know, packed down to like six or eight pieces. Side note, I think it got stolen in St. Louis and my car got broken into and I was traveling out West like years later. But anyway, I just, I didn't really know what I was doing. So like in Maine, I had to, like, I, there was a bunch of brook trout, like small streams, you know? So that was, that's kind of like, that's what I love doing is fly fishing for small and small streams for brook trout. But then there was like a pond I lived on. So I never fished for, like, I never fished ponds before. So luckily like a, an old timer, a ranger took, would take me on a canoe and like, you know, in his thick Maine accent would would show me how to like, you know, fish a maple syrup fly, you know, which I had never known about, you know, and then the West Branch of the Penobscot, which is like right outside Baxter State Park. And it's just, it's a river I go back to every couple years. I was there in June, but it's landlocked salmon fishing, you know, and I had no idea what I was doing. I lucked into a few salmon on my five weight. And, you know, I like just swinging Hornburgs, which was like a wet fly pattern they had up there. I found dry fly or wet fly. And yeah, So I just kind of like based on where I found myself, I just picked up small things here and there. And in Rocky Mountain National Park, I I was on the west side of the trail crew. So we I stayed up like right on the headwaters of the Colorado River. So I would just like on my weekends, you know, go up and just kind of fish small streams for cutthroat and stuff and hiked up to some Alpine lakes for the first time in my life and caught really easy, big cutthroats out of these Alpine lakes. I was like, oh, that spoiled me. You know, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. yeah so I was I was really grateful for that experience is to just like I didn't know what I was getting into until I was into it you know so there was like I just you know that was before it was the mid it was early 2000s so it's not like I would research on the internet a bunch you know I wouldn't go on YouTube and look up a bunch of videos before and I just like showed up you know and luckily I ran into some people that showed me some things and I just kind of fumbled around until figured it out
Katie
yeah I was gonna ask what side of the park you worked on I worked on the park so I didn't know too much like I mean I ventured to the west on occasion but I don't know I don't know the west like I know the east side so I was I was hoping you'd say east but that's all right
Michael
yeah yeah it's funny because like when we were there we barely ever went over to Estes Park you know we were we were always we kind of sequestered over on the west side what did you do in the park when you were there?
Katie
I guided I guided there for a couple of summers wonderful yeah so I'm very familiar with a lot of the waters on the east side but I only fished I mean We went over and fished like the, the Poudre headwaters and stuff like that, kind of up at the top of trailers. I guess that's still kind of the East side, but yeah, headwaters of Colorado and stuff like that. But I didn't fish any of the lakes over there really.
Michael
Okay.
Katie
Awesome. But tell me about your, your setup these days. I know you're on the Susquehanna and I don't know much about that part of the state really. I mean, I'm from Pennsylvania, but I was all over on the West side and like smallie fishing over there. I never really did much trout fishing. So I'd love to hear like what your home fisheries like and then, then talk about some of the back country out West stuff too.
Michael
Sure. Yeah. So I live in a small town in Marietta in Lancaster County on the Susquehanna River. So it's right outside my front door. So the Susquehanna is a great smallmouth fishery. So I spend most of my summers just in a kayak or wading for smallmouth crayfish patterns, black poppers, shimmer minnows. Those are like the three flies. Those are the only three flies I use all summer. It's great. you know and also up up like so that's kind of in south central or south southeastern Pennsylvania and then but also if you go upstream you get the Juniata which is a fantastic fishery as well so yeah that's my summer months is mostly just smallmouth fishing and some carp every once in a while if I get lucky and hook into some and then in the you know in the spring and fall and even in the winter the great thing about Pennsylvania is you can fish year round which is fantastic. Um, you know, there's some waters that obviously freeze over, but we have limestone, which stay running all year. And it's, it's a fantastic state to fish year round in. So I do a lot of, I go up North a little bit, you know, I usually travel an hour and a half, two hours to get to like the good trout water. Um, and I do a lot of blue lines for brook trout. Um, you know, there's the bigger fisheries like, you know, Penn's Creek obviously is pretty famous, you know, for brown trout. Um, but you know, so I'll fish those as well, But there's there's there's just so much water to fish in Pennsylvania. It's fantastic. And we have so our public lands are different. We don't have like the big national forests or anything like that. I mean, we have Allegheny National Forest, but we don't really all our public lands are state lands, you know, state forests. And it's like there's just so much public land in Pennsylvania. And so it's kind of similar to out west where, you know, I can go to any state forest and camp and fish and hike and, you know, kind of just have fun with it. It's it's it's fantastic. There's a lot of places to explore in PA. But yeah, I'm a sucker for blue lining. Like I love just finding, you know, a blue line on a map and going fishing with it, fishing it with like my, you know, my three weight.
Katie
So if you had to choose between like blue lining brook trout and kind of the bigger water smallmouth fishing, do you have a preference between the two or is it really 50-50?
Michael
It's 50-50. It's seasonal for me. Like in the summer, all I want to do is I float for smallmouth bass. You know, I love it. I love smallmouth fishing. They're a fantastic fish. And it's funny because it took me years to get into them, even though I've always lived right near them. You know, I was kind of, I started off fishing for trout because that's what you do. And then that's like, it, it's almost like, ah, no, no, I don't want to do smallies like that. Who, who would fish for that? But now that's, I look forward to the summer. I like July and August, this is the prime time and I love it. But come like April, May, like I want to, I want to fish the hatches on, on the streams, you know, for trout, you know, like in October, I love fishing in the fall. if we have water we've had some pretty low water years here lately but in the fall is
Katie
is there a big fly fishing culture on the Susquehanna for for smallies or is it like I mean where I grew up there's a big smallmouth fishery but I don't see fly fishermen there very often it's all it's all conventional do you do you see a lot of fly anglers there
Michael
yeah I think so I think it's increased in popularity over the last few years as well and like obviously we we do have a history too like bob clouser developed the clouser fly like just 10 miles upstream from where I live you know so there's lefty cray would fish here a lot, you know, so there's a lot of history in this river and it seems like since COVID and, you know, right before around COVID, like in the last, like six to seven years, there's a lot of people, there's a lot more guides I've noticed. And they fish a lot. It seems like a lot of people are concentrated kind of North of Harrisburg fishing the Juniata and that area of the Susquehanna river. But, you know, we have bass thumb tournaments on the river, you know, there's, there's definitely in fact most of the people I know like I I know more anglers that fish for smallies than I do for trout at this point you know like there it seems like at least that at least where I live as well you know we don't we have a lot more warm water down where I live and the trout water is kind of up north from of us but yeah there's there's definitely a pretty vibrant community around the river for sure
Katie
how big is the river where you live?
Michael
you mean like width and things like that?
Katie
yeah I don't need like a cfs but just kind of a general description of like you know we can we can picture like a small trout stream we can picture a big river that like you can barely even fish without a boat you know where on this spectrum does it fall in your area
Michael
yeah you definitely need a boat I mean well a boat will get you you can definitely wade out because you know this is when it kind of like translates to like I think like you know shallow wide river or something like that loosely it's very wide probably a mile wide at some points and it can get very shallow like in August right around this time of year you can wade out pretty far to get into it to get like grass grass beds and things like that but a kayak is I think I love having a kayak because it's a great way to kind of paddle out and I'll paddle out to islands sit my kayak down like you know park my kayak and then wade out from the islands so it's a great way to kind of transport. Now, right below me, we start having a series of dams. And so the water gets super deep, you know, and you need boats, obviously, to fish those deeper waters, you know. And so a lot of like, right where I live in Lancaster, there's a lot of folks that go out and fish for musky and catfish. Catfish are pretty popular on the river right around here, just because the water is so deep.
Katie
Is that with a fly or just conventional gear?
Michael
I catch them with fly rods.
Katie
You catch the catfish?
Nathan
Yeah, most folks are probably using conventional gear, but I've caught some pretty big channel catfish with a fly rod.
Katie
Are you targeting them or is this like incidental?
Nathan
It started off incidental, but now I'm kind of like, man, they love a black woolly bugger. I can kind of figure out how, yeah, you cast upstream and kind of just jig it down a little riffle, and I can almost always get a good channel cat.
Katie
Huh. I wouldn't have guessed riffles either. I would have guessed like the slower, deeper pockets.
Michael
Well, or like a riffle that goes into a deeper pocket, you know, you know, and right where the water, you know, right where the water gets deep. They're just like, just seem to be set up there just waiting for waiting for that food to come down. So I think they're fun. I don't I mean, people, you know, kind of turn their nose at them, but they're they're blast, you know.
Katie
So you're using the same gear that you would for bass, but you just kind of choose your location and let it kind of bounce along the bottom versus, I assume, kind of a more aggressive stripping for bass?
Michael
For sure. Yeah, I usually use a 9'7 weight rod is my go-to rod for kind of all things on the Susquehanna. Now, I've broken off quite a few large carp because I have my bass rig on and I accidentally hook into a large carp or things like that. um I actually a couple years ago landed a like it was well over 30 inch cat channel catfish with like my six weight fiberglass rod I mean it was and I was not targeting it you know I was I was fishing poppers and I just threw a you know I think a streamer on and I mean it that that that one literally like pulled me upstream on my kayak as I was trying to land it it was it was a lot but you know it's fun that's what I love about fishing rivers like you kind of never know what you're going to find. It's multi-species. There's tons of cool fish in it.
Katie
That's what I was just about to say. I miss that about Pennsylvania compared to out here. Don't get me wrong. I love mountain trout fishing, but you generally know what you're going to catch. If you don't, it's between two or maybe three species. They're all pretty similar. They're all trout. The most variety you get is you could catch a whitefish or a sucker. I really miss back in Pennsylvania being like, it could be smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, walleye, pike, musky, carp. It could be anything. And you don't like you have a, you have an idea of what it might be, but like, it could really be anything at the end of the day.
Michael
Yeah. That's what I love about the state. Like you can fish all year for any type of fish, right? You know, so you just, you just kind of have to pick something that you're into and go for it. It's fun.
Katie
Was there not a trout season? I remember there being like an opening day of trout.
Michael
Yeah, there's definitely opening and closing day of trout, but you know, with the regulations, you can fish non-stocked well okay so don't quote me on the the exact regulation but essentially in general you can fish you know as long as you're not keeping fish you can fish year-round you know there's a closed period usually like a month before opening day where all the water is closed from fishing so it's usually like February-ish march I guess now opening day is more into march so it's February that's usually completely closed but outside once the season closes, I guess, in September, you can't typically harvest fish anymore, but you can still fish catch and release, you know?
Katie
Okay. Yeah. And I remember there being like trout waters, like there were, there were things were designated as trout waters where I've kind of gotten, I forget about that because out here, like kind of most cold water is trout water, but it's not like a designated thing. It's just that they're in there.
Michael
Yeah. There's definitely, you know, special regulations. There's fly fishing only streams, like parts of Penn's Creek is fly fishing only. There's certain like catch and release sections. So there's definitely, you should read the rule book, but you know, it's, you can find somewhere to fish all year for the most part, you know? Yeah.
Katie
And what's your, what's the brook trout fishing like that you do? I know you said blue lining, but you know, what's a day like when you're blue lining for brookies?
Michael
Yeah. I usually, there's unfortunately where I live, the trout streams are getting fewer and far between just because of warmer waters and, you know, there's a lot more farmland where I live. So I usually have to drive kind of north or, you know, up into the state forest, you know, pick a state forest in PA and you can usually find, you know, some brook trout streams. It's pretty easy. So, you know, anywhere from an hour to two hours, I'll drive somewhere. And I like to find streams that aren't near roads, you know, and I have a, like one of my favorite rods is this Barclay. He's a rod builder, I think in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. but he makes these awesome fiberglass rods. And I have a, one of his called the blue Ridge special. So it's like a six and a half foot three weight fiberglass rod. And I, I love fiberglass, fly rods. They're just, they're just a blast. Um, yeah. And so I just take that my little, my little six and a half foot three weight and tie on a purple haze or caddis or, you know, something very simple. And I'll, I'll put on a, I'll bring in a bunch of food and some water and And I'll just, you know, essentially fish or hike up a stream and, you know, fish pool to pool. You know, sometimes there's a couple of streams where I'm willing to drive like two and a half, three hours for, you know, and then there's a few that you have to like hike down into some pretty deep ravines to get to. But there's some really beautiful gems of streams in Pennsylvania if you're willing to hustle for them. Yeah.
Katie
You mentioned enjoying chasing the hatch in like the kind of early spring of April, May time. But I also picture tiny mountain brookies as kind of being like not picky. Like they just want to eat literally anything on the surface. Is that a different species you're going for during the hatch? Or are you just, you enjoy batching the hatch even if it doesn't really require it for the brookies?
Michael
No, good call. Yeah. So brookies, yeah, you fly, you cast anything and they'll eat it usually, you know. But like in May, we have a great sulfur hatch, you know, on like a place like the Little Juniata. Fantastic stream, you know, or the Penn. So those are, you know, bigger brown trout waters, you know.
Katie
You need to put some thought into what you're doing.
Michael
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, Penn's obviously has the green Drake hatch, which everybody knows about and everyone fishes, you know, so, but like there's, there's certain, certain hatches throughout the spring that depending on the waters, the bigger waters I'll go to the fish for, for those Browns. Yeah.
Katie
Okay. So the Brookies are what you'd expect from a little hungry mountain brookie is just like if something lands on the surface, it's getting smashed.
Michael
A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, it's great. I love it.
Katie
That's good to hear. I'd be kind of turned off by a Brookie. it's like really picky. I'm like, that's not, that's not your strong suit. Like what's, what makes a brookie great is that they're willing to eat anything.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. They'll make the three hour drive and, you know, six mile hike worth it. You know what I mean? Because they'll just eat whatever you throw at them. You know, they, they do what they should be doing.
Katie
Right. Yeah. Well, that's why I'm glad. Cause we've got, I mean, we've got a ton of brookies in, in Colorado, obviously not native, but I often work really hard to get to them. So I appreciate that when I get there, they make it a little bit easier on me. Like I don't want to hike 10 miles in and have a brown trout, like turn up its nose at whatever I'm throwing. Like I need brookies and cutthroat, which are both like super eager to eat.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the best type of fishing I think.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. Tell me about, I know you did some, you got in the back country when you, when you came out West and, did some like kind of big wilderness trips. I'd love to hear about those. Yeah, sure. So, I'll just kind of give you like a history,
Michael
like the trail work was in my early twenties and I moved back home and I was like, I need a real job. And I essentially, I'm a high school English teacher now. That's like my, my day job, which is I love and it's fantastic. And it took me like maybe like 10 years. I got into fishing like big time over those 10 years. And then I'm a writer as well. And so back in 2021, I was selected as the artist in residence for the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area. And so I got to, I drove out to Montana and I got to stay in this back country ranger cabin by myself for two weeks along a beautiful section of a river. And I got to write and I essentially just fly fished every day. and it was fantastic. It was one of those life-changing experiences, but that really then kind of got me back into the backcountry. The trail work was wonderful, but I kind of burnt myself out on the backcountry for those four years because I was just literally living in a tent for four years. It was a great way to kind of reintroduce myself to the backcountry and not have it aligned with work, but have it aligned with what I love to do, which is just be in the wild and fly fishing and exploring. So yeah. And since then I've done some, you know, I try to every summer do a backpacking trip out West to a different wilderness area, you know, for different types of trout and things like that. Are those usually by yourself? It's a mixture. So yeah, the residency was by myself, which was fantastic. But that got for two weeks by yourself is man, that's, that's a challenge. Like there was grizzlies around. That was a challenge, you know, like that to not get you know attacked by grizzly but really honestly it was just like being by yourself but I did find myself like that solo alone time is really important to me as well so I I do a mixture last year I went out to the golden trout wilderness in the sierras and fish for golden trout in their native waters which is fantastic and then I did a trip up in the john muir wilderness as well for golden trout and my old college roommate came along which was fantastic. It was awesome.
Katie
For both of those?
Nathan
Yeah. It was like, you know, we did a trip, went back into town and then did another trip. It was pretty great. But two years ago, I went out to the Wind River Range in Wyoming and just did a solo trip, which was also fantastic because I was able to kind of just ramble, kind of go wherever I wanted to go. So there's, I like both, you know?
Katie
Yeah. What do you think you get out of the solo trips? Just that I feel like there's a lot of people who don't ever do it. So I just I think it'd be great for for people to hear like kind of the benefits of it.
Michael
Yeah, I think it's just wonderful to just kind of be untethered from the world. Untethered from the human world, I should say, because you become much more tethered to the natural world, which is fantastic, you know. And so that's what I love about those solo trips is like, you're able to just kind of instantly kind of move into that world where you're kind of like disconnected from your home and all the other people around you. And you're just in immersed in this natural world. And it's fantastic. And as, as a writer, as an artist, that's really important for my creative kind of process, you know, I'm able to just explore ideas, but also just explore the world. Like, So I can, I do a lot of like cross country hiking when I'm backpacking, you know, so I'll go off trail and I love to be able to just do that without any sort of, you know, what's the word I think? I can't think of the word. Without any sort of like obligation to anybody else, you know, I can just kind of see where the day takes me. And whereas, you know, with a friend, it's awesome as well because you get to like, oh my gosh, there's some amazing sunset. Like you have these stories you can share and talk about and like, that's fantastic as well in its own right. But there's just times in my life where I just it's just really important for me as a person to just kind of totally be there, you know, by myself. It might also speak because speak to the fact that I'm a teacher. So like my day to day life is very much involved with other people. You know, I'm surrounded by teenagers all the time, which is fine. It's fun. But like I definitely need that mental health break to just kind of be on my own and just kind of enter the wilderness. I should say, you know.
Katie
So I've done, I've done a decent number of solo trips and I enjoy the solitude. But one thing I struggle with is the desire to like, like, I think you kind of mentioned it, but to share with somebody or to like something funny happens or something crazy happens. And you want, you almost want to be able to turn to somebody and be like, did you see that? Or like, or watching a sunset, you want, you kind of want to feel that just the feeling that somebody else is seeing it too. Not that you're like, oh, people are going to think I'm crazy that this is happening. But there's just some, I feel like, desire in us to make sure somebody else is witnessing the same thing you are, whether it's just a crazy experience or a beautiful experience or a funny experience. And when I'm out there alone, I find myself almost like writing things down. Like, I got to remember to tell so-and-so that this happened because I have this overwhelming desire to share it with somebody. And maybe it's a healthy sign or maybe it's a sign of like, I need to not be so codependent on other people. But it's kind of an unexpected thing that I think a lot of people picture camping alone. They're like, oh, it's scary. You know, there's bears or whatever. And it's like, for me, it's a different kind of feeling. It's just a lack of having somebody to share little moments with.
Michael
Yeah. No, I completely agree. There's definitely times like, because I'll do solo trips in Pennsylvania or, you know, around the East Coast as well. And I had the kind of a similar moment in June. I went up in Northern PA to do this Chuck Kuiper Trail and it was beautiful and like but I came across this amazing black bear you know and it ran up the hillside it was like sitting there in the field of ferns it was just like staring at me and I was like it was so cool and I was like I kind of looked to my left or right to like be like oh my gosh you see that and there was no one there obviously because I was by myself you know and there was moments like oh this would be a great time to share this with somebody you know but I do think in the inverse too is like I have a teacher so I have like a couple weeks off at a time during the summer. So like, not it's always hard. It's hard to find people to do these things with. And so I've kind of come to terms with like, okay, well, I'm just going to do them anyway. And if I can find someone to come with, that's awesome. And if not, I'll just figure out a way to enjoy it myself. And hopefully write something about it that I can share with the world that way, you know, either through an essay or a poem or something like that, you know, so.
Katie
I wonder what causes that, like why people feel the need like this, you know, this sunset's not as good if somebody else isn't seeing it too. Like my eyes are witnessing the same thing that they and I'm enjoying it as much as I could, but like, I don't know what kind of evolutionary advantage there would be to kind of feeling that lack of something, like the sunset's not as good because no one else is there to see it. I don't know why that would be a thing, but I don't know.
Michael
Or is it a product of our, you know, social media, you know, where we have to share everything, right? And so, because I know like there's some places like I've stumbled into, like in the Wind River Rangers, a basin where like, you know, it's a magical place and I went there by myself, but like off trail and like, I want to share that with somebody someday. But like the fact that I was there by myself, in some ways, because I kind of found it by myself, it's even more meaningful. And also, I'm really excited to take friends there someday. You know what I mean? And it's, it doesn't devalue the experience for me that I'm, that I was by myself. And if anything, it makes me appreciate even more that, or maybe I'm actually just more grateful that I even had that experience or was able to have that experience.
Katie
Yeah, it's interesting. I like your point about social media though I mean I'm not I don't really post much on social media apart from like podcast episodes but I I do feel like there's probably a big subset of people who when they're out there they they're so used to sharing that stuff that if no one's there they're like their desire is to take a picture of it so they can show other people and maybe maybe we're not too much disconnected from that yeah even if we're not like posting it online but I wonder too if the the ability to reminisce with somebody you know if someone was there to see it you can later on and be like, remember that time when whatever. And it's really hard to do that and kind of unsatisfying when you're like, hey, let me tell you about this time that this happened. But like, I know you're not going to picture the same way. I know you're not going to get the full depth of feeling. And there's something that feels a little empty about that, that you wish someone else could remember it the same way you did.
Michael
That's a great point. Like it made me think of like last summer, we were up in this pretty high, you know, high Alpine basin in the John Muir Wilderness area. And like, you know, so I think it was that maybe camped at like 11,000 feet, you know, incredibly high up there. And like, I just remember this one night, my friend Justin, who was with me, we just like, you know, sat for hours watching the sunset, you know, and Alpenglow slowly started. But like, for like an hour or two, it was like this insane pink color I had never seen anywhere in my life before. You know, like it felt otherworldly, you know, and I have photos of it, but the photos don't even do it justice. And so I am so grateful that I can just be like, I can call Justin or text him and be like, hey, man, remember that? And he's like, yeah. Like there's like that affirmation that that amazing, all inspiring moment happened. And I get to kind of relive that again with him, even, you know, for as long as, you know, as long as we can, you know, which is that's it's a beautiful thing to be able to share that with somebody.
Katie
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but it's almost like an additional like memory bank where, like you said, photos don't do it justice, but you know, it was, you know, more vivid or whatever. But the longer that you go without thinking about it, it kind of starts to fade in your memory. But having somebody else there to kind of be like, oh, yeah, and remember this. And it's kind of like can spur that back in you in a way that a photo might not remind you. I don't know. I wonder if that is some kind of evolutionary thing where kind of having a collective consciousness among your tribe. Like there were probably benefits to having somebody be like, remember where that berry patch was? I wonder if this is kind of like a remnant of needing to survive. And now it's more like, remember that beautiful sunset?
Michael
It's like you're building a community of all, you know, with those around you. Yeah.
Katie
I wonder if you're more suited as a writer to logging the memories in a more vivid way, just because I'm not a writer. And so when I think back on something, I might think like that was a nice sunset. But I feel like writers, because you have to paint a vivid picture for people who weren't there, you get really good at using language to convey like really minute details. That I wonder if you think differently because of that, because you're so used to putting these little things into words in a way that would convey to somebody else. I'm not thinking in that way when I'm out there. And I wonder, I wonder if that changes your experience as a writer.
Michael
Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely think of like my experiences out in the wilderness, whether it's out West or just even here in Pennsylvania, like, as a chance, it's, it's all, it's all part of the writing process for me. I've learned is even when I'm not actually putting, you know, words on a paper, my experiences are going to, you know, are going to lead me into that writing eventually, or feed into that some way. You know, so like, when I'm by myself, I find like, if I'm backpacking by myself, or even fishing by myself, I always have a little notebook with me, you know, and like, I'll be writing in that I'll be journaling or just just observing, you know, that Mary Oliver once wrote or said, like, attention is the beginning of ocean, you know, so like, when I'm out in the wild, I'm able to like, kind of give my attention over to that place, you know, and hopefully, you know, write down my observations that might turn into a poem or an essay or, or open myself up to different voices and characters, if I'm working on a piece of fiction, or, you know, it's all part of that process for me. I was talking with a friend the other day who does a lot of bikepacking, actually, and he's like, he'll do these like long miles. And I'm like, why are you like killing yourself doing these long miles? He's like, because I don't know what I'm going to do at camp. Like, I'm just going to get to camp and be bored. I'm like, he's like, what do you do? I'm like, why? I sit and write, you know, like I'll just sit and like, I'll fish or like, you know, watch a stream or watch a mountain and I'll write, you know, so it's definitely kind of part of that process for me.
Katie
So is it ever distracting? Does it ever pull you out of the moment because you're too concerned with how you're going to write about this later? Or does it does it bring you more into the moment because you're trying to be so attentive to, you know, be able to put that in your writing later or maybe something else?
Michael
Yeah, good question. I think the moment always wins. So like, if I see a hatch, I'm gonna go fish. I'm gonna write. So if I if I want to go hiking, I'm gonna hike like so the writing is just kind of like the it'll happen when when I feel when I when I'm tired, you know, when I'm sitting down, you know, every once in a while, I'll be on a stream and like, I'll pull out something and just because it pops up in my head, and I'll just write it down real quick. So I don't forget. But rarely do I stop fishing a plunge pool because I want to write a poem about it. Like, no, I'm going to fish this. The poem can come later. But it's like that mindset of like, I'm going to always at least keep my mind open or tuned into things so I can be open to what comes.
Katie
I want to hear in detail a little bit more about some of the trips you took out west, particularly the Wind River Range and the Golden Trout Wilderness. I'd love to hear what you were fishing for, the Golden Trout Wilderness, but what were you fishing for?
Michael
in at these two spots and what were the trips like yeah so I'll start with the winds because that was kind of like my first solo backpacking trip yeah so I really wanted to catch a golden trout in a lake that was my goal I had never caught a golden trout before you know so and I wanted to do some off-trail traveling so I flew in I flew into Salt Lake City drove up to Pinedale and kind of went up through there and and I went up through the big sandy trailhead and then I went off off from there and fish some I actually didn't catch a golden trout in any lakes but I caught them in the streams you know the outlet streams and stuff like that but during that loop I did camp along a lake that was just full of cutthroats which was just fantastic you know and they were the classic cutthroat where I would just throw like a big purple hopper or something or just whatever I'd throw on top on the surface and they would just cruise from 20 feet away and just you know, inhale it, which was a blast. And so that was five days or so of a five day trip or so. Yeah. And so that was kind of like my first entry back into backpacking. That was a few years ago. And then the golden trout wilderness was last year and we hiked down and we were fishing the small streams for for native golden trout, which was fantastic. So that was that was to me was very much like fishing for brook trout back home you know because we hiked up over the past down into the golden trout you know the the drainage anybody can find this online so I don't feel like I'm spot burning I mean it's called the golden trout wilderness but like and you know there's there's a few streams there that have native golden trout and they're just small streams you know so I had my my my fiberglass fly rod and I was just you know we just had purple hazes on you know parachute atoms like whatever dry fly you had you could you know tie on and just it was fantastic it was That was a mixture of plunge pools and then meadowy, high meadow stuff, which is super cool. That was about four days-ish that we hiked back in there and did a little loop.
Katie
Probably very different small stream fishing from the brushy brook trout stuff you do at home. I haven't been to the golden trout wilderness. It's on my list, but I picture much more open and much less choked. I mean, when I think of like choked out water, northeast brook trout fishing is what comes to mind.
Michael
Yeah, I mean, yeah. If you don't know how to do a bow and arrow cast in PA, you're kind of screwed. Yeah, like it's like just rhododendron and mountain laurel and these thick tunnels and you're down on your hands and knees a lot of times and just like, yeah, it gets pretty chock full over here in the east. But yeah, the golden trout is just pretty wide open. You know, willows, you know, I guess it would be willows. Yeah. I was not prepared for the amount of, this is just a east coaster going to this year. for the first time, like for the amount of like grit, like it was like, you know, sandy, just like that, that like that broken down granite and things like that was just very, very dusty.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of dust out here.
Michael
Yeah, for sure. Like when I did the, when I did trail work, we were on the Pacific Crest Trail, but we were like down further south in the San Jacinto mountains and things like that. So I'd never been in the Sierras before. So it was really cool to get back into that area and to see that for the first time.
Katie
What, what went wrong? I don't want to say wrong as though it was like a bad trip, but you said you had a goal of catching golden trout in the lakes, in the wind rivers, and that that didn't happen. Was there something, was there a reason? Like, did you try and you just couldn't get them to take? Or did it end up just being, you know, easier to fish in streams or what went down there?
Michael
Yeah, I think I was a little too late. You know, from what I've learned, like we were in the Sears, when I went to the Sears last year, we went up to the John Muir and we did, we had some really great success fishing for golden trout in the lakes up there, but it was like closer to ice out. When I went to Wyoming, it was a couple of weeks. It was, I think it was too far after ice out and the fish were deep from what I understand by that point. Um, you know, and so I just, and once again, I just kind of blundered my way into it. I didn't really know exactly what I was doing, you know? So, yeah, I just, it did, it didn't seem to work. I don't think I targeted the right lakes as well. You know, like you could, I, I did a ton of research and I knew there were golden trout in these lakes. But I think when I go back, there's other lakes I'm going to go to that I think are going to be way more productive, you know, as I did more research. So, but like I said, the cut throat trout, the cutthroat lake that I stayed at was just like fantastic. It was phenomenal. So I'm not sure what the big difference is between those two species, you know, and how one I was pulling out like, you know, 16 to 18 inch trout on every cast on, you know, hoppers and stuff. And the other one, I couldn't even get a take, you know, you know, on top or even when I was, you know, doing leech patterns or stripping nymphs and things like that. I just could not get anything. So I haven't really cracked that code yet.
Katie
So are the lakes separate species like it's a cutthroat lake or golden trout lake? Are there lakes that have both?
Michael
Yeah, they're like one of the lakes had both like one lake had golden trout and I think it had brook trout. So I think the golden trout were probably stocked. I mean, they were all stocked at one point. But yeah, so there's lakes that have like both and then there's lakes that just have one or the other, you know, depending on what was planted there, you know, years ago when they brought all those trout through. Yeah.
Katie
Do you have like a soft spot for native fish? I know you mentioned the golden trout in California kind of, I don't know, ring the same bell as like a brick trout back east. Is that an important thing to you?
Michael
Yeah. I mean, yes. I love wild trout or I love wild fish, you know. But I definitely do love the idea of fishing for native trout, for sure. You know, I know a guy who's trying to catch all the native trout, you know, and that's his trips every year. And that definitely appeals to me. But I also just love the areas that the trout will bring me to. So at the end of the day, I love wild fish. That's really what I love. You know, like the smallies here in the Susquehanna are not native. Like they are invasive.
Katie
Oh, they aren’t? I didn't know that.
Nathan
Yeah. And so like, but I love them to death, you know? So, and I will fish for them until I die. Like they're a great fish, you know? So like, it is what it is. You just got to fish what you can fish, you know? As much as I would love to just catch native brook trout, unfortunately, you know, those streams, it might be getting harder and harder depending on what, you know, the stream science and things like that. So, you know, yeah, I love native fish, but I just love wild fish.
Katie
Now you have me curious. I didn't realize that smallies weren't native to that watershed? Where are smallmouths native?
Michael
Oh, geez.
Katie
I don't need a biologist's answer, but generally, because I would have assumed that they were.
Michael
I think south? I feel like I should double check my information.
Katie
Yeah, I can do some Googling and figure it out. But I never hear anyone complaining about them as a non-native species that was introduced.
Michael
Yeah, well, I know in Maine, for instance, there's streams, there's rivers that are smallies are encroaching into that are native brook trout streams. And there's a lot of people angry about that because how it might offset those brook trout populations.
Katie
Huh. Interesting. I just, I feel like we hear all kinds of stuff, at least out here, about, you know, brown trout taking over, rainbow trout taking over, pike taking over. And it's like, I don't know, those are hot topics I hear about, like with cutthroats, you know, they're out competing cutthroats. And I just, I never hear about it in the bass world of like this bass, is taking over this watershed. They're just there and everyone seems to like it.
Michael
Yeah, I mean, I know, for example, the Rapid River in Maine, you know, is a kind of a historically important brook trout river, but smallmouth have been introduced. And there's a lot of people who like say, if you ever catch a small, you just throw it on the bank, you know, like because they're worried about how it's going to affect that population. Now, can I Google real quick to see? Yeah, yeah, no, I'm curious too. I'll do the same.
Katie
Oh, okay. So they were native where I grew up, which is why I assumed they were native where you are too.
Michael
The Great Lakes and Ohio River watershed, for sure. Yeah, that would make sense. So Western PA, they're native, but yeah, not here.
Katie
Yeah, it's not that I had specifically heard that they were native where I grew up, but they just seemed like they belonged there. It just felt like they belonged there. And so I just assumed that they were native through the entire state. I guess that makes sense, though, that you're kind of draining out more toward the Atlantic Ocean. And I was draining more toward the Ohio and into the Mississippi. So I guess they really are two different watersheds. But I was just like Pennsylvania is Pennsylvania.
Michael
Oh, and there's just so many smallmouth fisheries in Pennsylvania that it's just kind of like, where would the line be? I know in the Susquehanna, too, is like the because we drain into the Chesapeake. So snakehead, snakeheads have been kind of encroaching into the Susquehanna. And I imagine they're going to be through all the dams and through the whole watershed here in the next few years. But that's that's a big hot topic as the next kind of invasive species.
Katie
But do you ever catch them?
Nathan
I have not. I've seen them. I saw them. There's one spot below a dam I like to fish that for the first time this summer, I saw a few snakeheads for the first time. So they're getting over at least one of the dams. And I know people who target them, who love to fish for them. But I think so. from what I understand and top water, you can fish for them with top water and stuff like that. And supposedly they're really good to eat.
Katie
So wouldn't have guessed that, but
Michael
yeah, but same with like, you know, flathead, we have a ton of flathead catfish in the Susquehanna river and those are invasive as well, you know, but, and they, those can be come on like massive fish. So yeah.
Katie
Well, do you have any other trips coming up or are you, are you wrapping up for the summer travel wise?
Michael
Yeah. Oh, unfortunately I'm, I'm going back to school next when next Thursday is my first day. Yeah. we kind of early start early so my and I didn't really get to do a out west backpacking trip this summer unfortunately but I'm hoping to do some Pennsylvania trips in the fall maybe I sometimes I go to the Shenandoah National Park as well because it's only about three hours away and that's great brook trout fishing as well yeah so I'm already daydreaming about you know next summer as well so I was up in Maine this summer so I got to spend I got I got some really good fishing done in Maine in June so I can't complain
Katie
okay it's just slightly more localized travel than the out west stuff.
Nathan
Yeah
Katie
Well, where can people find your writing if they want to check out? I know you said ahead of time that you have some poetry, lots of articles, things like that. Where can people find you if they want to look for your writing?
Michael
Yeah, I have a website. It's just www.mgarrigan.com. So M-G-A-R-R-I-G-A-N.com. And all my stuff's there. So if anyone wants to ever fish on the Susquehanna River, just let me know. I'd love to take you out.
Katie
Awesome. Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining me. This was a really fun conversation.
It's always fun to chat with people who are like from my neck of the woods, but also have experience out in my new neck of the woods. So that's what caught my eye when I came across your bio. I found you in the BHA magazine. So yeah, you've got some good writing out there and it was just fun to meet you and learn about you and talk fishing.
Michael
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Katie. Appreciate it.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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