Ep 178: Spearing in Wisconsin and Decoy Carving, with Ryan Ebert
Ryan Ebert is a darkhouse spearer, artist, and decoy carver from Wisconsin. In this episode, we discuss darkhouse spearing for various species, the art of decoy carving, fun stories from the ice, ice safety, and the state of spearing in Wisconsin.
Etsy: link
Instagram: @ryan_ebert_art
Facebook: /RyanEbertArt
-
Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing in the backcountry. This is episode 178 with Ryan Ebert on spearing in Wisconsin and decoy carving. I usually start by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and into fishing. It's usually fly fishing, but I know we're going to be talking about a completely different type of fishing today, darkhouse spearing. So I'd love to hear how your start in the outdoors and specifically into darkhouse spearing?
Ryan
Yeah, I grew up a country kid, so yeah, the outdoors and hunting and fishing and all that was pretty common for me growing up. And then when I went to college, one of my first buddies I met in college, his dad was a DNR warden up in Marinette, Wisconsin. That's kind of like up by the UP border. And then he like just got talking to me about darkhouse spearing and that was completely foreign to me at the time. That would have been like 2007. And they invited me up to come try it out one winter. And so me and like six other buddies went and we just, yeah, immediately got hooked on it and really into the functional art of everything. And just the uniqueness of the sport and being able to look down through a big hole in the ice and see that whole world beneath. And our first outing, we didn't even, nobody saw a pike. You know, that's what we're after for Dark House Spearing. But we did see some big trout in the bay there. And we had an otter that kept popping up in the hole. And that was really cool. So yeah, I just was immediately hooked on the uniqueness of it.
Katie
For people who didn't hear, I did a Darkhouse episode or two a couple years ago. But for anyone who didn't hear that, can you just give a quick rundown of how Dark House Spearing works? Because I bet the majority of the country has never even heard of it. Or maybe they heard of it by watching like Meat Eater or something. But it's kind of an isolated little niche community up in like the upper Midwest. So I would guess a lot of people have no idea how it works. And I'd love to just get a quick rundown of how a trip like that goes.
Ryan
Yeah. So there's nine states you can spear in. But yeah, it's pretty much what we call the ice belt. Your main states for pike spearing would be like North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan. Those are the real big ones. But then like South Dakota, Alaska, Wisconsin, we can only on Lake Superior waters. We can't throughout the rest of the state. So there are a number of places you can do it. But yeah, you're going and you're cutting a big hole in the ice. It's usually like, say, two by three, like two feet by three feet hole in the ice there. And then you're putting a big shack over it with all the windows closed. If it's a pop-up hub, you don't want any light coming in or a permanent shack. You don't have any windows. So that darkness allows you to be able to see down into the water real clear. And then you're swimming a decoy, anything from realistic to folk art to just whatever whimsical stuff you can come up with. They generally don't have hooks on those decoys. It's just an attractant to bring in the pike and swim in that. And you're waiting for them to come in to view there. And then you have a spear that kind of looks best described as like a trident. And then you're hoping to hit them with that through the water.
Katie
Yeah, it's such a different way of fishing than anything else I've ever experienced. I mean, even like ice fishing, that's obviously the closest type of fishing to it. But it's still very different. Like throwing a spear at fish instead of using rod and reel and being able to look down in the hole is just such a unique thing. The light really does. Like it's shocking how much the light comes through the ice and lights it up like a TV in front of you.
Ryan
Yeah, and there's a lot of variables that go into that. You know, there's a lot of lakes that have lots of good pike populations, but then the clarity of the water, you know, isn't that great. And if you can't see the pike coming in, then it doesn't do you any good to sit on that lake. And then depth wise too, you're generally wanting to really only spear no more than like eight to 10 feet. Cause anything past that, that spear is going to start to plane out and pike are obviously very quick too. So, you know, trying to hit them at any sort of depth is already hard enough. And so, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of different variables and go into picking a good spot for pike spearing.
Katie
Now, are you primarily pike? It sounds like, I mean, you, you've mentioned pike several times when we went, we did a lot of like whitefish too. I don't know if it's like different state by state or if you just have a preference for pike, but kind of walk me through this, the type of species that you're typically going for.
Ryan
Yeah. Every state has different rules as far as what you can go after or rough fish or any sort of game fish. There are some states where you can like spear walleye. Here in Wisconsin, we have a season for sturgeon that's, you know, super highly regulated. Generally when I'm going up to the UP, I'm going for pike, but that's mainly just because that's the most common thing. You can spear whitefish, but we just don't have them up there as much as you guys do, or as they do over in Minnesota. Yeah, I go to Minnesota sometimes, and, you know, it's really fun to spear whitefish. They're a super fast, aggressive fish, and they don't really, like, decoy up. You know, they don't give you a pause like a pike will. They're always just cruising real through real quick. And so, yeah, it's fun to go after some of those different species as well.
Katie
I don't know if you do any hunting, but it reminded me a lot of hunting in that it goes from, like, no action to you see, like, you see your quarry, but you don't have it yet. It's different from fishing with a rod and reel, just because I feel like with a rod and reel, you feel it. Once you feel the fish, you're like, I am connected to this thing. All I have to do is get it in. Not that it can't go wrong, but you find out once you already have the fish. And in Dark House Spearing, it's like you see the fish and you suddenly get an adrenaline rush of like, oh my God, we've been sitting here for two hours and I haven't seen anything. And suddenly there's something in front of me, but I have to take an action here or I'm going to blow the opportunity. Do you do any hunting? And have you thought about the similarities?
Ryan
Yeah, I do deer hunting. I used to do a lot of small game hunting, but not as much lately. But yeah, I would say it's very similar to like bow hunting. Because, you know, you're sitting in one spot, you're locked in. You know, it's a lot of work to cut a spearing hole. So you're not moving, you're not hole hopping like you are if you're like tip up or jigging or whatever. And, you know, you see other fish too. So like last weekend I was up in the UP and I seen lots of perch and stuff like that. I'd quite seen like squirrels all day. Like they're just constantly coming around, coming through. And yeah, I only got one pike over three days. And yeah, luckily my buddy saw it come in before I did. You know, it's just you're waiting for that one moment for that fish to finally come in. And there's a lot of ways to screw it up because, you know, you can be talking and that doesn't bother them. But if you shuffle your feet on the ice or you, you know, ting the ice with a spear or whatever, they will bolt, you know, super fast. And then you kind of miss that opportunity.
Katie
I want to get into like the decoys themselves, but a couple more questions just on the logistics of going that I'm just like selfishly curious about. It sounds like you're allowed to do it basically anywhere, but like you said, there's restrictions on how deep you can be, not from a legality standpoint, but just from the logistics of doing it. How do you find a good spot to Spear? Is it kind of like there are places that are well known that everyone goes to Spear here because the depth is right and everything? Or do people have their secret spots that they have to scout out and figure out?
Ryan
Yeah, I mean, some of it you're scouting in the summer months. And obviously, if you're catching a lot of pike, you'll come back in the winter and check it out. And usually if I'm going to a new lake and before I ever cut, you know, like I said, it's a lot of work to cut a giant hole and pull those ice blocks out and everything. So I'll just auger a single hole and I'll literally lay down on the ice, drop like a decoy down through that little auger hole and try and make it dark around me so I can see down and just get an idea of clarity. Because again, if you can't, you know, see past the foot down and it's really murky, you know, iron stained water, like we get a lot of through the Midwest here, then it's not a good spearing lake, even if there are a lot of pike there. So just, yeah, a lot of factors playing into it there. And, you know, going back to a lot of spots that we know usually produce pretty well, or we know the clarity is at least good.
Katie
Do you find that within a single lake, there are spots that are like way better than others for seeing fish beyond like everything else being equal, like appears to you, like same depth, same kind of structure and cover nearby, but you're just like this one spot produces really well.
Ryan
Oh yeah, for sure. Like last weekend was our annual Spear Fest that I do with a bunch of buddies. So there's like 40 of us that go and we have at least 20 shacks up and every year there'll be two or three shacks that, you know, those are the ones getting the pike for whatever reason. And there'll be shacks within 20 yards of them and they're not seeing a single thing. And, you know, some of that might be the decoy or if they're, like I said, shuffling their feet or spooking them or whatever. But it just seems like those fish have like their own patterns and routes within, you know, within a body of water. And you just got to find that ideal spot sometimes.
Katie
Obviously, there's no such thing as catch and release in this sport. So I assume you eat a lot of pike. What's your favorite way to prepare pike?
Ryan
I create them tasting like bluegill. So yeah, just doing regular pan fry and butter and a little bit of breading. And so yeah, I really like pike. And everybody that's from the outside's perspective thinks, you know, like, oh, you're hammering all these pike or it might be hard on a population. But like I said, last weekend, I was up for three days. I got one fish. I think out of our entire group, we maybe got four pike total out of like 40 guys. We definitely would have had a lot better luck if we just, you know, been putting tip-ups up out instead of trying to spear. And we also practice what we call look and release because there are, you know, depending on the body water you're on, there's rules as far as the size of the fish or the number of fish. In Michigan, it's usually either a five-fish lake or a two-fish lake. So a five-fish lake means that it's a super high population. they're trying to get it down a little bit. You can spear any size. There is no minimum, but you can only get one over 24 inches. The area we were at, it was a two fish lake. So you can only get two fish over 24 inches. So we're definitely being very selective and, you know, watching to make sure that it's legal, or if we've already gotten one, maybe we're holding out, hoping for a bigger one to come in. So we're just watching a lot of fish come through and those fish, you know, as we're watching them, there's no harm or stress to them, you know, Versus if you're tip up fishing, you know, you're pulling the hooks out and stressing those fish out and trying to get them back in the water to releasing them. Whereas look and release, you know, it's just, there's no harm done to those fish.
Katie
That's a good point. I'd never thought of that, that catch, it's like less, it's less damaging to the resource than catch and release. Even if the same number of fish, you know, aren't kept that just like you, you're not interacting with them in any way apart from, I guess, with the decoy. But that's, you know, that's not doing anything to them. Is the limit different than if you were to ice fish with a rod and reel or rod and reel fish like during the summer months? Or is it its own kind of...
Ryan
It's all the same harvest regulations. So we're all following the same regulations as a hook and line would be.
Katie
There's one other thing I was going to ask about. Oh, yeah. The size limits. Like I know you said like over 24 inches. Obviously, you can't stick a ruler down there and measure the pike in the water. So you're kind of going off a judgment call there. And it's not like this is entirely unique. I know there's laws about moose in Alaska have to have a spread of 50 inches, which you can't know for sure until you get up to it. And so you're just kind of going off of, like, that's definitely bigger than the limit, so I can take it. Is that kind of what you guys are doing, too? You just have to know it when you see it and be good about judging what 24 inches is or don't risk it?
Ryan
Yeah. I mean, definitely you'll see a lot of fish that it's like, oh, I think that fish is legal. But if you're not certain, you're just going to let it swim through. And a lot of times, you know, if you swim in like, say, a 10-inch decoy, you're kind of looking at the decoy compared to, you know, if it's giving you time next to that decoy, like, all right, it's clearly, you know, three times the length of that decoy. It's a perfectly legal fish. A lot of times we're not even looking at necessarily the length. You'll just see like, we call it shoulders. They start to get that girth like behind their head. And it's like, that's a clear indication that's a fish that's of legal size.
Katie
Have you ever thought about dropping like a two foot long rod down with a piece of fishing line to the bottom just so you could see the fish like in comparison to something that's two feet long?
Ryan
Yeah. So with sturgeon spearing, a lot of guys will put down like PVC pipe or fencing, you know, anything on the bottom just to help. Because like Lake Winnebago is a very mucky bottom lake and obviously sturgeon are a bottom feeder. So they're just cruising on the bottom and it can be really hard to see them even if it's clear water, which it generally isn't. But like that white PVC pipe will help, you know, you'll see them pass over it. So like I have PVC pipe that's cut to 36 inches. So I know right away, like, hey, if that fish is longer than that piece of pipe, then it's a legal fish. And yeah, anything you put down, you just have to be able to retrieve. Obviously, you can't be leaving a bunch of clutter or something on the bottom of the lake.
Katie
But how different is sturgeon spearing compared to pike fishing or pike spearing?
Ryan
I mean, yeah, a lot of similarities as far as like cutting the hole in the dark, dark house. The biggest difference would be in the spear itself. The spear for sturgeon is much heavier. It's got a wider head, wider tines on it. A lot of spears now have what they call like flying barbs. So the barbs will like kind of open up and retract. And the head will detach from the spear handle. So it allows that fish, because they're obviously a very big fish, allows it to kind of roll and move around freely without worrying about that handle. like say hitting on the ice or something and pulling, you know, pulling that spearhead out versus a pike spear is much smaller, usually like maybe five feet tall, much lighter. It's all one piece, no moving parts on it.
Katie
Gotcha. And do sturgeons still come into a decoy or is like the technique of getting them in kind of like at random?
Ryan
It's very similar. I'd say you don't swim a decoy as much as you would for pike. You know, pike obviously are very aggressive predator fish and sturgeon are just like a curious dinosaur. So they're just coming in and they'll just kind of either nudge it with their nose or they're just swimming past to look at it. With sturgeon, you're generally not swimming like as realistic a fish. You're swimming real whimsical type things. So I've got like I made a couple of the characters from like the Toy Story movie as a decoy. Our Milwaukee Brewers have the racing sausages. So I made all of them as a decoy. Like that's what I got my fish in in 2020, came in on a racing sausage. So yeah, it's stuff that doesn't even look like a fish. You're just trying to get their curiosity piqued.
Katie
Interesting, because when we did pike and whitefish, you know, obviously we weren't doing decoys that were like Toy Story, but they didn't look super realistic. They were, you know, kind of like the well-known pike lure, like the spoon, like the red and white spoon.
Ryan
Sure, like a daredevil or something.
Katie
Yeah, daredevil. That's what I was thinking of. It's like it was fish shaped, but it was obviously not something that they would typically see in the water.
Ryan
Right.
Katie
So it's like, is it realistic or is it still a curiosity thing from the pike? Because they're not seeing like red and white spoons or red and white fish decoys like swimming underwater either.
Ryan
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both with pike. Yeah, it's curiosity and just being aggressive. My favorite is just using a natural looking pike decoy. Like they just come in angry and they'll just, you know, try and eat that decoy. But yeah, red and white decoy is super common or fire tiger colors, things like that. So on a good day, you'll get them to come into anything.
Katie
yeah I think I heard people talking about using like golf balls and stuff yeah like yeah you know just anything to pique their curiosity how often are the pike actually attacking your decoys versus coming in and just kind of like looking it over
Ryan
it's probably 50/50 usually if they're coming in to attack it they just come you know 100 miles per hour and you know see them come in all sudden you got your decoy getting engulfed by a pike and they're just inhaling it versus if they're just being curious they're coming in real slow from the edges and just kind of like going past they'll just kind of like slow mouth the decoy and just looking at it. And yeah.
Katie
Yeah. When we were out, I don't think I saw a pike actually attack it. Like people told me that they do that, like lightning fast. They're on the decoy before you even realize what's going on. And we only saw a handful of pike. It was mostly whitefish, but the pike we did see were all like, you'd almost see like a nose inching out from, from the edge of the hole. And you're like, what is that? You look under, it's just a pike kind of moving in it like millimeters at a time. It's crazy how much precision they can use when they move. It's not like other fish that are kind of drifting along. They're in very complete control of how they're moving.
Ryan
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Their ability to go from like zero to a hundred is just insane because, yeah, sometimes you'll like see them on the fringe of a hole and you'll like think moving the decoy a little bit will get them to come in, but no, that's the wrong move. And all of a sudden they just bolt out of picture and yeah, they're so quick.
Katie
uh one more question on sturgeon is sturgeon like a good fish to eat or is that what you're doing with them or do you get like caviar I don't know if that's a dumb question but like what do you get out of a sturgeon?
Ryan
yeah I think they're pretty good to eat there's they're definitely a more fishy quote-unquote you know tasting there's different ways to prep them obviously anything smoked for fish is always pretty good but doing like a fish boil like seven up kind of brings out that lake flavor takes that out and makes it taste a little bit better you can get caviar obviously if it's a female that's like ready to spawn and head up river but like mine was a we called it an f4 male so it was an an older male fish so I didn't get caviar with mine but
Katie
cool I want to transition a little bit to kind of the the art and the culture side of things because I found you know I found dark house spearing to be just like a really cool a really cool thing to do but equally interesting is kind of the culture behind it I think that's partially because like we talked about, it's kind of relegated to a specific part of the country. Like not everyone does it. It's not super widespread. And I think that kind of lends itself to creating a really rich culture where it is because people really like they dive deep back into that because it's kind of like their thing. It's their community's thing. I know you make decoys, which I definitely want to get into. But first, I kind of want to hear your I don't know how many states you've done it in, but like how how much does it differ across the states in terms of, I guess, illegality, but more so like the culture around it and like the way people do it.
Ryan
Yeah. So here in Wisconsin, like I said, we don't really have a pike sparing culture because we only can do it in Lake Superior waters. But we do have sturgeon sparing, which pretty much nowhere else has other than there's one lake in Michigan where they have a very, very short season. They can get like five fish and it's generally over within like an hour versus our season is 16 days unless it hits the harvest cap ahead of time because it's super tightly regulated. Every day, if you get a fish, you've got to be in line by 2 o'clock for them to register and, you know, sex the fish, weigh the fish, measure it, all that. And so it's, you know, super highly regulated. And we have a really big sturgeon culture, but it's really tightly around Lake Winnebago area. Like once you get further away from Lake Winnebago, it kind of is not as well participated in. But around the lake there, every bar will have a sturgeon pole up that you can hang your sturgeon if you get one. And there's decoys hanging in the bar and spear makers around the lake. And so there's a really unique culture that I equate to like what deer season used to be, you know, as far as that goes. And then, yeah, for pike spearing, like I said, Minnesota, Michigan, there's lots of decoy carvers and there's shows and spear makers. because everything with it is is like handmade there's not really like a huge commercial maker for anything there's not really much for mass producing of decoys everything's generally wood still there are some guys doing resin 3d printing is getting be a little bit more common but still most guys want those handmade wood decoys and there's definitely like collector's markets around that too and so a lot of my decoys that I make aren't even going to people that are using them collecting them or decorating like lake houses or cabins and things like that with them.
Katie
Yeah, you may have just answered my question there, but I was going to ask if you can even buy a decoy at like a store. Like, could you go to a store and just pick up a decoy or do you kind of have to find like a local maker seller to get one?
Ryan
So there are like some, if you're in the right state, if you're in Minnesota, Michigan, like you might be able to find one, say in a bait shop or like a Shields. There are some guys that are like trying to make a living out of making decoys. I do have a buddy in Minnesota that makes the Blue Blade fish's ice saws. So he's shipping to like Shields. So you can get some of that stuff in a store. But generally, you're going directly to the maker of that item and trying to get it. And like I said, Minnesota has a number of spearing shows. So you're trying to go to those shows and get decoys and spears and all that.
Katie
Yeah, I really like that aspect of the whole spearing culture and kind of like keeping things, you know, semi-local, semi, at least like primarily handmade. And it's like fly fishing's not quite there, but you know, flies are hand tied. And I think that's like kind of one, one step above, you know, like a Rapala lure. And I feel like spearing is one level above of like hand tied flies. You can't get like a mass produced version of a lot of this stuff. It has to be kind of a craft, like an artisan made that. And I just, I really like that. I'd kind of wish more, I don't know, more things that we participated in had a similar culture around kind of like shopped locally, but not even just shopping at your local Shields, but like shopping at your local, you know, guy's garage down the road who like just makes these in his free time and just really gets joy out of it. I feel like that adds just a richness to it that a lot of like outdoor pursuits are kind of missing.
Ryan
Yeah, I think it really makes it like a year round sport or culture, you know, having those handmade items in there because I, you know, I live in southern part of Wisconsin here. So I have to either drive three hours up to Michigan or like four or five hours to Minnesota to go pike spearing. I'm about two hours from sturgeon spearing. Like I said, that's a very short season. So the decoy making, you know, makes it a year round passion for me. And I'm definitely spending more time doing that than I'm actually, you know, getting out to go pike spearing. But I just, I love making that. And then I love seeing guys that share, you know, get a decoy for me and then share, you know, their success. And it kind of makes me feel like I'm sort of out there in some way, you know, even though I'm not on the ice, but, you know, seeing my creations, you know, bringing in fish is pretty cool.
Katie
I don't know how well you'll know the answer to this, which is totally fine if you need to punt, but how much of the, like, history behind how this originated do you know? And same with, like, the decoys themselves. Like, I assume as an artist you've kind of absorbed, like, how this came about and how decoys have evolved over time. I'm just really curious how Dark House Spearing came about how it's changed over the years.
Ryan
Sure. So yeah, Native Americans would have been the first ones doing it and making decoys out of different things, whether it was bone or antler. And they would, you know, very similar, you know, cutting a hole and sitting in, usually it'd be like under like buffalo hides or whatever to try and make it dark. So those natives would have taught like kind of the first settlers here in the Midwest, you know, would have picked up on it. And then it just kind of went from there. So there's a lot of decoys that, you know, are super collectible from a hundred plus years ago that, you know, would have been made by various carvers and, you know, sturgeon spearing here in Wisconsin has been going on for, I think, almost a hundred years now. And so, yeah, there's definitely a lot of history there with it.
Katie
Well, getting around finally to the actual decoy carving, because that's why I reached out to you. I love seeing what you make and you make some very realistic looking decoys. Like all the decoys that I saw and used when I was out were, like I said, they weren't Toy Story, but they were fish shaped. But you know, you had to be generous about what you considered a fish shape. And like the painting was all over the place. And I've seen some of your decoys that look like actual fish swimming around in the water. So I want to get, I guess I'll let you kind of lead the way on how you got started in decoy carving, and then I'll kind of pepper you with questions from there.
Ryan
Yeah. So my buddy that I mentioned earlier, his dad was a ward and he's a carver as well. So when I first went up with them and gotten to see his decoys and really kind of dissecting and looking at them and thought that was really cool. But it was probably about, I don't know, three or four years before I started carving on my own. Because at the time I was just in an apartment and didn't really have anywhere that I could make a mess and do wood carving at. And then once I finally got a house, then I just started kind of carving in the corner of my garage and like figuring it out on my own for the most part. And just looking at my buddy's dad's decoys, like trying to figure out how everything went. And fortunately, as far as like wading goes, the Michigan Dark House chapter, they had like a tutorial on their website, like just on the real general basics of like how to wade a decoy to get it to quote unquote swim because you want it to go in a big like slow circle through the water to have some nice motion and movement to it when you jig it. And yeah, it's just a lot of trial and error over the years of figuring things out of how to best get things to swim, how they best look. And yeah, I do a lot of realistic ones, but I also have a lot of fun doing off the wall, you know, things I just think of and trying to get the fish to come in and on, say, a peacock bass or whatever. Obviously, that's not native to the Midwest here, but it's a lot of fun to make something like that and then put that down in the water. And yeah, it's just a lot of different harebrained ideas. Putting antlers on fish or I found a turkey spur out in the woods last spring. I put that on a fish and just using different things for like full cart.
Katie
What is the process? You know, you don't have to get super granular because I'm sure that everyone is a little bit different and everything. But generally, what's the process of carving a decoy from a block of wood, adding weight and getting the final product?
Ryan
Yeah, there's obviously a ton of steps. Everybody kind of always asks, like, how long it takes to make one. And it's like, well, if I kept track of my time, I would probably never want to sell one because it just takes forever. And then there's a lot of time in between steps that, you know, you got to wait for things to dry and cure and all that. So it's not like I could sit down one morning and have a finished decoy by, you know, that afternoon or whatever. But yeah, you're starting off with a block of wood, usually using like cedar just because that's the most resistant to any sort of water or rot. Because you're putting it obviously down in the cold, cold ice there. So yeah, carving out the fish shape and then there's a lot of sanding. And then I'm cutting the fins either out of copper or aluminum, setting those in the fins and the sides of the body to get it to weight. You know, you kind of like are finding your center of gravity on that piece once it's carved out. And then that kind of gives the idea of where your lead cavity is going to be in the bottom. You generally don't want to put your lead too deep because then the fish will get like kind of tippy or top heavy. Again, you're trying to get that nice movement through the water. And then once you get it weighted, then seal that lead cavity up and painting and priming and clear coating. And yeah, about a million other steps in between that. But that's the real general basis for it.
Katie
I'm going to be that annoying person and ask you like how long one takes but not not like not like total hours but like if I asked you for a decoy today and you had nothing going on like how many days would it take for you to get one back to me
Ryan
probably like six days or so because okay so yeah yeah once you have it all carved out and then set in those fins usually with like epoxy so you got to wait like a day for the epoxy to cure then when you wait the fish you want to wait usually like a day or two for that make sure that's all dried out because you don't want to be sealing any sort of water in that wood and then the priming you know you wait another day after you prime it and then you paint it you wait another day for it to cure and then you clear coat it and so yeah a lot of waiting in between steps there because a lot of new time carvers will like try to rush into it and they'll not wait in between that and all of a sudden their fish is done and they even don't even use it it's all some cracking and falling apart and it's like well what happened And it's like, well, there's moisture or something, humidity, you know, all that plays into it, too. So if it's not completely dried and cured, like if you rush that process, that decoy is just going to kind of come apart on you when you're all done.
Katie
Do you have any concept of how many people who buy your decoys are just buying them for like aesthetic reasons versus actually fishing?
Ryan
So actually, my carving shop, I have a U.S. map that anytime I ship a decoy, I put a pin, you know, on that map. And I have, obviously there's a lot in the Midwest for pens, but there are states that are for sure not getting ice, you know, down in Arkansas or Alabama, Arizona, whatever. And it's like, those are definitely going to just collectors that are, you know, either think it's cool, they either like the fish or whatever. And those are, I'm sure not getting used.
Katie
I hadn't thought of that, that you could basically track it. Like not that every person who buys it in like Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin area is using it for fishing. But yeah, like you said, anyone that's not in kind of those handful of states is not using it. So I didn't think about the fact that you could basically divide out, like, is this being used or is this not based on, you know, the zip code that it's going to.
Ryan
Yeah, I would say maybe half of the decoys I make are getting used. You know, every one I make sure that it's functional, even if I'm getting super decorative with it. I know like, all right, this is a high end decoy. It's probably not going to go in the water. You know, somebody's going to spend good money on it, but I'm still making them to work. And yeah, like I said, there's a lot of collectors, even here in the Midwest, there's a lot of collectors buying them that I know that it's just going to go on a shelf and be on display.
Katie
You said in your email ahead of time that you sell a lot of stuff to fly fishermen. Is that like decoys? I know you sell other things too and you do other kinds of art. How do you know that fly fishermen are buying your stuff and what kinds of stuff do they buy?
Ryan
A lot of times they'll tell me. Yeah, I carve, you know, I could probably carve trout every day for the rest of my life and they would all, you know, sell. And yeah, trout are obviously a very pretty fish and people are into them. So yeah, a lot of fly fishermen, they see it. And even though it's a fish decoy that they think it's really cool. And sometimes I will put like a fly in the mouth of the trout or whatever, just to add add a little something to it. And yeah, I started doing like a year ago, these fish pattern ornaments. So out of solid birch wood, little round balls that I'm painting, like just call it, you know, fish patterns on them. And the trout ones just go like crazy. Like I never can paint enough of those.
Katie
So is art your full time job or do you do something else? And this is just something you do for fun on the side.
Ryan
Yeah. So I went to school for graphic design and then I spent 11 years in the publishing and printing industry for agriculture. So doing that. And then that whole time I was working on publishing, I was kind of building my side business to do a lot of photography and design for people and businesses. And then, yeah, I got into decoy carving probably about 15 years ago. And then I got into screen printing about five years ago. So when I left my job in 2018, I just went full time on my own. So, yeah, I'm doing doing a little bit of everything artistic wise from photography, videography and making fishing apparel and carving decoys and plaques and all sorts of stuff.
Katie
Do you do you think you'll try to get your kids into like the decoy carving scene? not necessarily as a job, but just for fun? Is that something that you think would be fun to pass on to them?
Ryan
Yeah, I hope they'd be interested in it. I mean, that's how a lot of people get into decoy carving. I'm kind of the rarity of nobody in my family speared or made decoys. When I go to these decoy shows in Minnesota, it's a lot of family lineage of like, oh, my dad made decoys and my grandpa made decoys and I'm fifth generation decoy carver and stuff like that. So yeah, on the first gen, and I'd love that if one of my daughters would be into it, I'm obviously not going to force it on them. My daughter's oldest one is two, and she was very upset for the first time that I went fishing. Last weekend without her, she's never been fishing, but she just was mad that she didn't get to go with me. So hopefully that sparks some interest there. And one of the things I just completed was a Fish of the Midwest coloring book, and she's been coloring her fish a little bit, so maybe that'll get her interested in it there.
Katie
That is something I hadn't thought about, but taking a kid spearing could, if not done right, be a little bit dangerous because an adult could fit in those holes. So a kid could definitely fit in those holes. What's the general consensus around taking kids spearing and when do you think you'll take her with you?
Ryan
Whenever she starts to sit still. Okay. Yeah, it's a patience game. You're around a big hole and you got to be careful. But I think the visual aspect of it is something that really could get kids into it. Because even if you're not seeing pike, like I said last weekend, I was seeing a lot of perch swimming through. And I saw a catfish swim through. And so there's a visual aspect there. I think that makes it really cool versus if you're tip-up fishing or jigging, you know, you're not seeing that fish. You're just staring at the ice. And that can probably not be too much fun for a kid. And at least in a dark house, you're, you know, generally pretty warm and you're out of the wind. And, you know, you're looking down in the water and seeing that decoy. I just kind of play around with. And so I think it is a good sport to get kids into. And yeah, you just got to, like anything, you just got to be a little bit careful with the aspect of it.
Katie
Yeah. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. I mean, the major thing that I hear about taking kids fishing is that they get bored, you know, if they're not catching something and typically you're not seeing much. I mean, for what we do, we do sight, like sight fish for trout, but it's not every time. And you have to still have an eye for it. Like you still have to know what you're looking for to kind of spot them. You're not getting a great visual of the trout. You're like, I see a shadow moving over there. And dark house spearing, you're seeing, it's like you're looking down in a glass box. You get a really good view of everything. So I could totally see how, as long as you're in a spot where there are fish, whether there are fish you can spear or not, that would be like TV for kids.
Ryan
Yeah, we call it a TV when we're cutting a hole. We're like, we're cutting a big TV today and cutting a big hole.
Katie
So has she been asking to go with you?
Ryan
She just started asking. Like I said, she's only two, so we'll give it another year or so. I do a lot of like shows and stuff here so I have like the Madison Wisconsin Fishing Expo coming up next month so I'll probably take her to that maybe buy her first fishing pole at that show.
Katie
There are a couple things that you had mentioned that you wanted to bring up that I wanted to ask about. One is the state of spearing in Wisconsin and I'm not sure if there's something specific going on like you know legislation changes or anything like that or if it's just you know like a cultural thing but tell me what you mean by that like what the state of spearing is.
Ryan
Yeah, so we used to have more spearing opportunities here in Wisconsin, mainly on the boundary waters of Minnesota and Michigan. And then in the late 80s, they kind of just, without really any sort of public input, they just kind of did away with it. And really with spearing, there's not a huge segment of spears. Like even in the states that it's very popular, like we're a small segment of anglers. So they did away with it. So like I said, we don't really have pike spearing opportunities here in Wisconsin. So a group of us for a number of years have been trying to get at least different opportunities added back into the state here. A few years ago, we got really close. So we have our spring hearing that every year for the DNR where the public can vote on different proposals for regulations. And in order to get those proposals submitted, you have to jump through a ton of hoops of like state committees and different boards and things like that for fisheries. So we submitted a regulation to add pike spearing season here in Wisconsin. We pretty much had an even split on the public input of the spring hearing. And then we have our conservation congress, which is our elected people from every county. We then passed the county. And then for whatever reason, our DNR just basically ended it there. Because at that point, it's supposed to go to our natural resources board, which is kind of like the final step of where it gets presented and the board can like vote it down at that point or the DNR can present why they're not in favor of it, but it was supposed to get presented and never did. Uh, so that was kind of frustrating. And, so that's kind of the state of it right now is we just continue to kind of spin our wheels and, and submitting. There's a lot of infighting within kind of any sporting or angling, you know, you get so into your species and your pursuit and your passion. So we get a lot of kickback from the muskie guys because they get very worried about like incidental take. They have very strong opinions about native spearing up in the northern part of the state here. So we get a lot of kickback from that, even though, like I said, Minnesota, Michigan, all these other states have seasons. So you can just look at those states and see like this is a very safe practice. It's not going to harm any sort of populations. There's especially when you look at like angling citations and things like that. It's just almost non-existent in spearing. And again, that's just because there's not many of us to begin with. So it's a little frustrating when you get talking with some of those people that, you know, have these concerns about, again, mainly just with muskies, that you can look at these other states and it's like, all right, the facts are there. It's safe. It can be done. We can, you know, super tightly regulate it. We could keep, you know, prominent muskie waters here in Wisconsin closed to pike spearing. there's lots of little ponds and lakes that have only just hammer handle pikes. It's like, all right, let's just open those bodies of water up to it. And so we just want to get our foot in the door to be able to practice here in the state and keep our tourism dollars and our winter recreation dollars. Like I said, I got a group of guys that's 40 to 50 guys. We're going up to UP every year. That's a lot of money going across the border. It'd be awesome if we could just do that right here in our own state.
Katie
Yeah, I'm not the originator of this idea. I probably heard it like on a meat eater or something, but it's weird. The, the bycatch argument, just because there's so many other things where it's on you to know your target. And it's like, you know, typically in the hunting world, cause fishing, you've got the fish in your hands, but I mean, even then you need to be able to identify your fish if you want to keep it, but like ducks on the wing, you know, you need to know what that duck is before you shoot it or know that it's a duck before you shoot it. You need to know that it's a whitetail or a mule deer before you shoot it. Like you need to, you need to have the responsibility of knowing your target before you pull the trigger. And it's, It'd be kind of weird for like the white tail guys to come after the mule deer guys claiming that like, well, we can't let mule deer hunters come in because what if they accidentally shoot all the white tails? And it's like, well, that's illegal and they'll be sighted. You know, that's that's how that works. So it's kind of weird. And unless there's some, you know, huge tendency of people to accidentally spear muskies, which it doesn't sound like there is. It's kind of a weird argument to me that, you know, you have to be able to discern all these other things, but you can't discern this one. You're just blind.
Ryan
Yeah. Like I said, you're always going for the clear water. And they're very recognizable in the water versus muskie versus pike. You know, they act different even in the water. And they, you know, obviously the color patterns are different and all that. So it's, we always say if you can't identify them in the water, you probably can't identify them out of the water. So yeah, you just, like any sport, you know, you just got to make sure of your target before you're quote unquote pulling that trigger.
Katie
Right. And it feels like there's ways to incorporate that kind of education. Like maybe if you buy a license, you know, you get some little primer, you get a little a booklet or a PDF emailed to you or something that just says like, hey, telling a pike from a muskie, make sure you review these things before you go out. I feel like most people, you know, they don't want to get the wrong thing and get cited. I'm sure there's guys who fish for muskies and spear and like they don't want to accidentally spear the wrong thing. So it's like, I don't think people are out there doing it on purpose. They'd probably be more than happy to read a five minute little blurb on telling the difference if it means that they get to go spearing and do pike spearing again.
Ryan
Right. Right. Yeah. And again, you can just look at those states that it's, you know, throughout the state, it's legal. You know, Minnesota used to release some of those ticketing reports or whatever, basically of spearing and angling. And it just was like non-existent as far as, you know, in the incidental take citations went. So, yeah, you just got to be sure of what you're looking at.
Katie
Right. And if you're I mean, I know I know they are different. They have different behaviors. But if someone's pike fishing, you know, during the summer with a rod and reel and accidentally hooks a muskie, Like there's no guarantee that that muskie lives either if it's been played out and held out of the water for pictures and all kinds of things like that. So it's just, I don't know, the argument, you have more of a chance of identifying your target and then passing on it, spearing, than you do like with a rod and reel.
Ryan
Right, right. Yeah, and like I said, it's just frustrating that we get this infighting amongst anglers and sportsmen. And it's like we got enough outside groups that try to like, you know, tear down our activities and things like that, that we don't need to fight amongst ourselves. And there's certainly workarounds. Like I said, we could just keep those prominent musky waters close to it. There's lots of hammer handle lakes or just open the boundary waters back up, any of that, just to let Spears show that this is a safe sport and can be done without any harm to anything else.
Katie
Yeah. Well, the other thing you mentioned you wanted to talk about was you said you had a bear story.
Ryan
Oh, sure. Yeah, it's always a fun one to share. So I used to do winter camping with some buddies up in the UP. And it was winter of 2008. It was like a good early ice winter. So it was early December. Went up to this lake that's kind of remote. You got to drive about, oh, a mile and a half back on a logging road. And then it's about a mile walk out on the lake to get to where you want to go. And there's not really any sort of permanent residences or any houses on this lake. So I went up on like a Thursday night, stayed with my one buddy and had a few beers. But I still made it out to the ice, you know, before dawn and walking out on the ice. And it was early ice. So I kind of was spudding my way out and keeping my head down and not really like looking up a lot. I get out to my spot and I'm like starting to auger my holes and I look out across the lake. Again, there's nothing and nobody for miles around. And I see this like black dot across the lake, basically. And at first I thought it was like maybe a dog or a wolf or something. I just wasn't sure. And then I'm like, oh, that's a bear. And it's like, again, it's wintertime, you know, early December. And I thought that's interesting. and I call my one buddy and tell him and I like set up my little camera and like kind of record it for a bit and then I realized after a little bit I'm like oh this bear is walking to me across this lake and it's probably a half mile across the lake like it's not close at all so I'm like yelling at it and claiming my auger and my spear together and just making all the noise I can and it keeps just slowly walking towards me and the way it's walking towards me is the way I walked in so like I knew that was safe ice, but I'm like, I don't know, you know, another way if that's safe ice or not. And behind me is just like marshland. So I know that's not a good way to go. So I'm like, I'm just going to have to like stand my ground and keep yelling at this bear. And it gets within about 10 to 15 yards of me and finally stops, looks at me for a while and then walks up on this island that I was going to camp on. And my buddies were going to come like later that afternoon to meet me and, you know, join me. So once it went up on that island, I just quick threw all my stuff on the sled and just like pretty much raced out of there. And, my one ward, my warden buddy, I'd called him, you know, asking like, what do I do about this bear? And he's like, well, just do all the things you're already doing and yelling at it. And then he ends it with, if the bear eats you, can I have your decoys? Like he was making a joke about it. And I was like, I'm not in a joking mood right now, you know, like this is getting real. And, so finally, yeah, I get out of there. Needless to say, I didn't go spearing on the lake that day. Uh, we went and speared another lake, the next day. And then two days later, we came back and walked out and found that bear just sleeping on the ice, like pretty much right around where I'd left it. So we like took a picture of it and stuff and let the Michigan DNR know like, hey, there's a bear, you know, just kind of hanging out here. And yeah, it was just a really, really wild experience, like something you wouldn't think you'd have happen in the winter. And being here in southern Wisconsin, I don't get a lot of interactions with bears. So it was just pretty, pretty neat.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like I'm not typically very scared of bears when I encounter them, but I would be caught off guard if I saw one in the winter. And I feel like my first thought would be something's not right with this bear. Like, why isn't it hibernating? And so I feel like my mind would go to, I hope it's not starving and like looking for me to eat or all the fish in the hole.
Ryan
Like I wasn't scared at first, but then once I realized it was walking towards me and then again, like you said, it's winter time. It's like, what is this thing doing out? Why is it wandering around? And why is it not afraid of me when I'm yelling at it clearly? Yeah. And I'm kind of like cornered there with nowhere to like run to and, you know, get away.
Katie
So you mentioned in that story, like where the ice was safe and where it's not. And that kind of leads me to the last thing I want to ask about, which is just some like ice safety things for people, which will, you know, go beyond just spearing mostly out to ice fishing, but anyone who's kind of recreating around like frozen lakes, I'd love to just kind of get an overview of like the basic ice safety principles out there, thickness and stuff like that. Just like it's a good message to end on for anyone who's like, I should go spearing, you know?
Ryan
Sure. Yeah. Um, obviously you want like clear ice is better than cloudy ice. As far as that goes, usually about four inches is good for walking on, that early ice. It's nice. Like I said, I was spudding out that day. So, you know, to spudding ahead of you, obviously that spud goes through and one or two pokes, then it's probably not safe enough to stand on. Float suits are nice now. So like any, The bibs and jackets that float are real nice. Having ice picks around your neck in case you do go through, because obviously if you do fall through, it's super hard to get out of the water and back onto the ice. So any of those practices are good to do.
Katie
Yeah, I remember those ice picks. That was the first time I'd ever been exposed to them. But what, basically just picks that you could use where if you fell in, you could actually grip something on the ice. You could jam them into the ice and pull yourself out because it's not something you would typically think about until you're in a life or death situation and you realize that ice is slippery and you can't just like grab onto something to pull yourself back up. So that was new to me as a non-ice fisherman. Like I don't really do any ice fishing. So it's like super obvious looking back, but I'd never thought of that before I was handed a set.
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then stuff like that's interesting. Then like here on for sturgeon spearing, again, getting back to that culture and talk about ice safety there. There's a lot of fishing clubs around the lake that are provide like reports on the ice thickness. There's a lot of working cracks on that kind of huge lake so they put like bridges out for atvs and trucks and and all that too so it's kind of a whole new aspect to ice safety when you're talking about driving a vehicle out on the ice but
Katie
and what's the vehicle's thickness?
Ryan
usually like a full-size pickup you want at least about 14 inches or more
Katie
okay gotcha well just to to end where can people find you if they want to find you online or if they want to buy a decoy from you how can they do that sure so
Ryan
So Ryan Ebert Art is kind of like my handle for everything. So on Instagram, it'll be Ryan Ebert Art, Facebook, Etsy. That's where I kind of list everything that I make and sell. And then I do a lot of shows throughout the Midwest here. I'm keeping a little closer to home this year with a newborn at home. But I got the Wisconsin Fishing Expo coming up in Madison here next month. In March, I'm doing the Wisconsin Open Season Sportsman Expo in the Dells. So some bigger, bigger angling shows there.
Katie
And if people go to your Etsy shop and are looking for decoys, I know each one's like unique. It's not like you just mass produce a bunch of stuff or can just recreate the same thing exactly. Like, are you listing them as you make them or how does, how do the listings work for decoys?
Ryan
Yeah. So if it's on my Etsy, it's, it's that exact decoy. Like I said, it's not mass produced. So everyone's different. Even if I'm making two pike, you know, they're going to be different variances to them because I'm hand painting them. So those spot patterns will be different. Carving will be a little different. so yeah if you see it on my etsy it's that exact fish that's pictured there right now I am completely out of decoys because yeah I don't mass produce them so I'm only making about maybe 40 or so a year and they go pretty quick a lot of times they're not even hitting my etsy it's just like guys will hit me up on instagram I'll like just start carving something and they'll be like all right I want that fish as soon as it's done and so it'll be be gone pretty quick
Katie
so if folks wanted you know if they went on your etsy and didn't see a decoy but they want to like get one from you at some point, is it reasonable to reach out and say like, Hey, like I'd love to buy a decoy from you when you've got one and kind of get on like a list or anything like that? Or is that too far?
Ryan
I used to do like a running list, but again, I don't make many of them and I kind of just want to make what I want to make. So it's best just to follow me on like Instagram. And if you see me starting on something and you know, you're going to want it, just, yeah, shoot me a message and put first dibs on it. And that's the best, kind of the best way to get it.
Katie
Cool. And I know everything's probably a little bit different based on each decoy, but like, what's the, what's the rough price of a decoy if someone's interested?
Ryan
So like a basic like worker decoy that's not super highly detailed will probably be like 100 bucks. Once you start like adding in like scaling and a little bit larger things like that you're talking a few hundred bucks.
Katie
Okay cool well Ryan this was a ton of fun. It's I think I'm in like the the spearing mood right now like I said I haven't gone I've only got like one trip and it was years ago but we finally got our first like big winter blast here. And I was wearing my like Minnesota hat out there today. And I was like, you know, I'm like just in the mood to talk about spearing. So I really appreciate you doing this. And I'd encourage everyone to go check out your decoys, even if they don't want to buy one. They're just, it's a really cool, like cultural piece of America that a lot of people don't know about. And they're really beautiful. So I hope people check you out and send you some positive messages your way.
Ryan
Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I enjoyed talking with you.
Katie
All right. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes. You can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fish untamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.