Ep 152: Fishing Every Lake in the Indian Peaks Wilderness, with Janet George
Janet George is a retired CPW wildlife biologist and now on the board of the CO Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. In the past few years, Janet has been fishing her way through much of northern CO. In addition to several other personal “projects,” Janet has fished every lake in the Indian Peaks Wilderness. In this episode, we talk about how she came to start these goals, what she experienced along the way, and what’s next for her.
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Intro
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 152 with Janet George on fishing every lake in the Indian Peaks Wilderness.
Katie
Well, I start every episode by just getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and specifically into fly fishing. So I'd love to hear how you grew up and how you were introduced to the sport.
Janet
Okay, so I grew up in Michigan and my father and my brother were avid anglers. And so I've been angling, going fishing since early days, like as far back as I can remember. In fact, I think they have a picture of me as five years old with a small mouth bass, but we weren't fly fishing. We were doing everything from bluegills on cane poles to fish in the great lakes for salmon and big trout. But when I moved to Colorado to go to college and I met my husband, he got me into fly fishing. And that was quite a long time ago. And so he's the one that got me into fly fishing. And then the neat thing about fly fishing is you can get started, but then it's like, it's a lifelong, decades-long learning experience, trying new things and different ways to fly fish. So I'm still having fun at it.
Katie
Now, do you like fly fishing or did you pick up fly fishing because of, you know, the interest in the actual act of fly fishing or was it a, you know, I'm in Colorado, there's trout out here, That's kind of the way to pursue trout. Like what was the motivation behind switching to fly fishing?
Janet
It was because, well, my husband had grown up in Colorado and he had fly fished his whole life. And so he gave me a fly rod and that's what got me into fly fishing. When I first moved out here before I met my husband, I was still using spinning rods and fishing for trout. And then I got really interested in the fly fishing. And I haven't spin fished in a long time, but that's just the way it goes. got nothing against it, I'll probably do it again. So that's how I got into fly-fishing. And then there's so much to learn. I like, I mean, I've always been an outdoors person since I was a little kid. And actually it was my profession too, because I went to school for wildlife biology and I worked for Colorado Parks and Wildlife as a wildlife biologist. And so just being outdoors and with fly fishing you get into the minutia of knowing the insects and that was highly interesting to try to match all the different insects and learn all their life histories and just doing that.
Katie
What did you do as a wildlife biologist? What was your focus or your specialty?
Janet
If anything it was probably bighorn sheep, but I was a general wildlife biologist in northeast Colorado. So I ended up dealing a lot with big game but also small game too. I did not do fisheries though. That was my hobby and it's always been my hobby is to do the fish side of things. But I worked on more of the terrestrial side.
Katie
Now what does one do with bighorn sheep in northeastern Colorado? I'm picturing a lot of kind of flat river bottom land. So like where are the sheep up there?
Janet
So northeast Colorado is defined by the regional boundaries of of Colorado Parks and Wildlife goes all the way to the Continental Divide.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Janet
So it's the Continental Divide, yeah. So that's the northeast. I mean, the Continental Divide kind of splits the state. So on the northeast, the east slope of the Continental Divide. So there is, yeah, like there is quite a few canyons and all the way up above Timberline too.
Katie
And what do you do? Like, what does a wildlife biologist with CPW do day to day?
Janet
Well, so what you do is you spend a lot of time like with computers anymore, but there's different things. So you estimate a big part of it is estimate population numbers and a big part of doing studies, individual studies like radio collaring animals, running population models with a computer, use a computer a lot, interacting with the public and just a lot of those kinds of things.
Katie
Did you enjoy it?
Janet
I did enjoy it. I did. There were challenging times, but it was a great career.
Katie
And you've since moved on, it sounds like, to-- you're no longer working that job, but now you're a board member with BHA Colorado Chapter. Is that right?
Janet
Yeah. So I retired from Colorado Parks and Wildlife a few years ago. And so I am a habitat watch and a board member with Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.
Katie
And what does that involve? What does that role entail?
Janet
So I'm pretty new to the board, but the habitat watch I've been doing for a while. So I'm pretty active in one of the regional partnerships. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Colorado's regional partnerships. It was something Governor Polis started. And so all over the state, there's 18 different regional partnerships. And so I represent BHA on two of them. NoCo Places, which is northern Colorado, and then the South Park County, Clear Creek County area outside 285. Those are the two that I've been on. So with Habitat Watch you kind of watch what's going on on the forest and if you have any concerns then you can approach the Forest Service and represent BHA. I've been like in the Boulder Ranger District we just had a stakeholder process with non-motorized and motorized trails and some of the wildlife interests and Backcountry Hunters and Anglers have both the wildlife interests but also the traditional hunting and angling representing those folks in the outside and outdoor recreation too.
Katie
Okay is that is that what you mean by like a concern like if you're watching the habitat and you know what does an example of like a concern or something you might notice that you want to bring up is that is that what you're talking about there is that something else?
Janet
Yeah so habitat watch it could be habitat things like one thing if you sounds like it you might be a member of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. So one thing would be old barbed wire fencing. One of the projects that or multiple projects that BHA has really been doing around Colorado is getting together members and pulling out old barbed wire fences as a habitat improvement for many species of wildlife. So that's the kind of things you look for. One of the things that I've seen a lot is unauthorized trails where people are going out and actually not legally constructing, illegally constructing miles of trails in pretty sensitive habitats. So that's one of the things. I mean BHA gets into a lot of other things and being new to the board I haven't been involved in as many of them but stream access is one that is a big one in Colorado right now and then And then in Wyoming, which will affect other states, is the corner crossings issues too. So BHA, or Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, speaks for public wildlands, waters, and wildlife, and getting people to have access to those, but yet protecting wildlife habitat at the same time.
Katie
If somebody comes across an old barbed wire fence, is there a way for them to report that to BHA? Because I feel like I've come across so many old barbed wire fences that I trip over or something. And I'd love to be able to share a coordinate and say, hey, here's an old project that could be taken on if anyone's looking.
Janet
So I would just contact a member, one of the members. Or you could contact me, and I could pass it along to-- depending on where you're at-- to the right place. The other thing you could do is also contact the agency. Like the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management are the two agencies that we work with the most. Although last winter, one of our members got two projects going on Boulder County Parks and Open Space too. So even on some of those places, and we pulled out like over two miles of old barbed wire non-usable fence on Boulder County Parks and Open Space. So I'd say the agency, but otherwise if you wanna contact me, I don't know who to, we really don't have a way to report it. OK. The agencies are probably the best way to do it.
Katie
Gotcha. And something else you said made me think of this. And it's totally fine if you don't feel qualified to answer this question. So feel free to punt if you don't. With Colorado's stream access law, are you optimistic that this could become more angler-friendly in the future? Because I feel like every time I hear about it, it's kind of stuck in some kind of legal argument and is never moving forward. But I hate our stream access law here. Do you have any thoughts on what the future of that might be or whether we can be hopeful that maybe we'll get a better law for angling in the future?
Janet
Yeah, I'm not deeply involved in it. From what I know when we've had our discussions, I think there is hope. It's hopeful. And be watching, there's going to be some kind of a documentary type program coming out about it too.
Katie
Oh, okay.
Janet
Yeah. So there definitely is. It's not just Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. There are some groups that are working on it and a coalition formed to work on it. But that's about as far as I know about it.
Katie
OK, yeah, I won't quote you on it. But maybe I just am looking for some hope, because it always feels so hopeless. So maybe just hearing somebody else is a little optimistic might make me a little happier every day.
Janet
Yeah, there's a ways to go on it. But I would say there's hope.
Katie
OK, OK. Well, the main reason I wanted to have you on today is that I came across your name in-- it must have been the Backcountry Journal. I can't verify where it was that I read it. But I'm sure that's where it was. that you had fished every lake in the Indian Peaks Wilderness, every fishable lake or every fish containing lake in the Indian Peaks Wilderness. And I thought that sounded like the coolest project. And I just want to talk to you about the whole process from start to finish and how you came up with this, how you prepared for it, what happened along the way. So I'll pepper you with questions along the way, but maybe let's just start with how'd you come up with this idea and maybe how'd you get the ball rolling on planning how to actually tackle this?
Janet
OK. So I live for a long time now. I've lived really close to the Indian peaks. And so it wasn't like all of a sudden I woke up one day and go like, by golly, I'm going to fish all the lakes in the Indian peaks wilderness. No, it was because it was close. I spent time. I mean, that's where I could go without having a lot of time to invest. Other than I could do day hikes or one night over overnight backpacks. So I've started fishing and been fishing a long time. and some of the easier ones, you know, once my son got to be eight, nine, ten years old, he could go with us and we could get to some of those lakes and fish them and get back. And then it was probably around 2017, after my son had grown up and he wasn't, and I had a lot more free time to actually go to some of the farther back lakes, I started to think, you know what, I've got quite a few done that maybe I'll just make this into a project, which I, it happened about 2017. And then, so I fished a few in 2018, but then when I retired in 2019, I had the time to go get serious about it. And that's when I actually did decide to go do them. And I would say there's probably 44 lakes that have dependable fish populations within the Indian Peaks Wilderness itself. And so some of the harder ones that took a couple of backpack trips, like couple days were the ones I did in 2019. And I got them done in 2019. But I still go back and fish them since then. Yeah. But that's how I did it. I mean, it was, it's sort of like the journey is as important as a destination. I wanted, it was a way to have a motivation to go see all those drainages and to see what kind of fish were in those lakes and what the lakes look like and talk to other people on the way. So it wasn't all about checking off, I just want to fish these lakes. It was kind of a goal to give you direction to go do all these things and visit all these places.
Katie
Yeah, I very much resonate with that kind of idea because I don't like being somebody who's just going to check a box just to say I did it. But I do really like kind of making these projects for myself, like setting goals like that. And yeah, it is about doing it along the way. But it's really nice to have something you feel like you're working toward, because I feel like that's sometimes a little bit of motivation to get off the couch and actually go do it. Otherwise, it's like, well, I could go out, or I could just get some things done around the house or whatever. It's really easy to not go do something when you don't have a reason you're going, in a way. So I'm the same way. I love setting challenges like that for myself. But at the end of the day, it's not really about saying, I fished 44 lakes. It's-- you get to look back at some of your favorite ones along the way. And it's just a great way to check out new areas that you never would have checked out otherwise.
Janet
Exactly. Exactly. And even the fun of studying and planning and figuring out how you're going to get there, some of them are pretty obvious. There's trails going there. But a few of them don't have trails going to them. And then you get to figure out, well, how do I get into that? And that's all part of the fun, too.
Katie
How did you figure out which lakes were the lakes that had fish? there's tons of different resources. But especially with lakes and fish that could die off in the winter and stuff like that, a lot of resources are out of date. So I'm sure there was some that you went to that were kind of questionable, like are there going to be fish here? What resources did you use to kind of figure out these are the lakes I need to go to and how'd that go?
Janet
Yeah. And I did. It was interesting along the way. There was a couple of lakes that weren't supposed to have fish. But I happened to be there or close enough that I went and checked them out and they did have fish. And then there was a few lakes that were supposed to have fish that I couldn't find fish, but that's a whole other subject. Some of those high lakes are pretty interesting. The fish can hide.
Katie
Yeah.
Janet
Yeah. But to get back to the question is so there's a couple of things. One is is on the east side of the Indian Peaks, the biologist, Ben Swigal, does surveys and he puts them out there. You can actually go enter in a search engine, Indian Peaks Wilderness fish surveys, and he's got information about the lakes, the stocking information, and also the survey information. And they actually did a survey in 2023, but the ones before was like 2014, 2015. So I got information on the East side that way. Another resource that came out, why I got a hold of why I was working on the project was there was a book called "Fly Fishing in the Indian Peaks Wilderness Area" by Steve Switzer and Mike Cruz. And Mike Cruz lives right here in Longmont. And so that book had a lot of information about what lakes had fish in. And then now you can actually go and find stocking data on CPW's website. And in the Indian Peaks, the majority of the lakes are stocked with cutthroats. And then some of the lakes have reproducing populations of brook trout that have been there a long time. And then one lake has actually lake trout. The same thing, it's been there a long time. CPW doesn't stock brook trout or lake trout anymore. So those are the main sources. And talking to people on the trail too is kind of fun.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you had any lakes that you went to and there were supposed to be fish and you couldn't find them. But at what point do you accept maybe this lake winter killed or are the fish just hanging down deep? How do you know when you're done basically at a lake if you're not seeing fish right away?
Janet
Well, so-- oh, when you're done? Sometimes the weather decides that for you.
Katie
Well, yeah, sure. But maybe done trying there. Like, hey, I don't think there's fish here.
Janet
Yeah.
Katie
Where’s that line?
Janet
It seems to me from what I found on these high lakes is that either you're going to catch fish or at least see fish fairly early after you get there or it's going to be a tough day and it probably isn't going to matter how long you fish. Now, there are some exceptions. There's one lake, it was actually in the James Peak just to the south, where it looked pretty slow but then all of a sudden a bunch of flying ants kind of hatched and were covering all the rocks and then the fish just showed up. So it's not an easy answer. Usually what decides for me is up there in the summertime, especially in July and August, is thundershowers rolling in the afternoon and then it's time to head for cover and get off the water and out of the alpine. So it's kind of a hard one to answer.
Katie
If you knew that there were fish in a lake and you didn't catch any, but you got driven out, would you come back? Maybe the question is better phrased as, was the goal to fish all the lakes that had fish or was the goal to catch a fish in all the lakes that had fish? What counted for you to check that off your list?
Janet
My goal was to... Well, I wanted to catch fish in all the lakes, but I just wanted to go to all the lakes and fish them without the goal. And I will say there are a couple of lakes in the Indian Peaks I haven't caught fish in, but I know there's fish there because I know they get stocked. Blue Lake on the east side has been one of those. That's been a real challenge to me. I haven't even seen that many fish there, but it gets stocked. It's one of those lakes that's about 100 feet deep and the fish hide pretty well. One of these days, I'll go get back there. It's easy for me to get to. It's a pretty short hike, like three miles or something.
Katie
That was going to be my next question is, do you feel like the ones that you didn't catch fish in that you know they're in there? Are you kind of like itching to go get the fish out of those to feel like you've really knocked it out? Or are you satisfied? And it's just a when you're up there, and a fun thing to do at this point.
Janet
Well, at this point, there's not very many that I haven't caught fish in. So blue and upper blue are two of them. I'm trying to think of any other ones. But yeah, I mean, it's not-- there's other things to do in life too.
Katie
Of course.
Janet
But I do go back periodically and try to catch fish in those two lakes. And eventually I will. I've seen them fish in there. I don't know what it is about those two. They're challenging.
Katie
Just a thorn in your side. Yeah, something like that. Were there... Do you have a favorite species that you caught up there? I know most of them are probably the same handful of species. There's not a ton. But like, you know, did you catch anything fun? I know you mentioned lake trout. I know there's some splake up there. At least I've heard there's some splake up there. Did you catch anything fun or was it pretty run of the mill, like cutthroats, brook trout, stuff like that?
Janet
Yeah, so what is up there is there's cutthroats on the east side. They used to be thought to be greenbacks, but now with, you know, you've probably heard about that with the DNA testing, it's actually kind of a mix, but they're cutthroats and they're native cutthroats. And then on the west side, there's Colorado River cutthroat trout, which are kind of cool. I like them. And then there's brook trout and there's lake trout in Crater Lake on the west side. Now, there are some rumors they're splake, but the fish, the aquatic biologists on one of those lakes doesn't think there is. I haven't caught any splake. So I don't know if there is splake or not anymore. I think there was splake in a few of those lakes years and years ago. They were stocked probably. But I like catching, I really like catching cutthroats. Of course, lake trout are unique so it's worth going to Crater Lake to try to catch some lake trout but they aren't big ones like you catch you know in Lake Granby or anything like that.
Katie
Yeah I've only caught lake trout in in one lake and I'm sure you have you're familiar with it if you've done the James Peak Wilderness which I want to ask about next but that's where I've caught lake trout is high alpine lake in the James Peak but I've never caught one in the Indian peaks.
Janet
Yeah, there's only one lake with them and it's on the west side.
Katie
Okay, okay. Yeah, it's so weird, you know, the whole like, there are reports of splake, but you know, some people say there aren't, some people say there are, is that all these resources, like every book that comes out, every guidebook that comes out, every fishing report that's put online is kind of like a snapshot in time. Because, you know, things come, things go, you know, I know it's probably rare in places like this, but like bucket biology, people grabbing fish and putting them somewhere else, and people stocking things, and then they die off, and things hybridize. And there's just so many ways that, you know, one population of fish is just not that population of fish forever and ever. It's, you know, it's an always evolving thing. And so it's, in some ways it's frustrating because you read these reports, and you're like, "Oh, I can go to that lake and catch such and such." And then you go there, and it's completely different from what you saw. But in some ways it's also exciting because you never quite know what's going to be there the next time. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? kind of the surprise of not knowing? Or are you equally frustrated by, you know, reading things that are no longer up-to-date, even just a couple years old?
Janet
Yeah, so the interesting thing about the wilderness lakes is I think they're pretty stable. I mean, it's not like the lakes outside the wilderness that have multiple species that get stocked at some intervals and some are reproducing. It seems like the wilderness lakes are fairly predictable. I mean, the of them do winter kill, so you might get there and there might not be any fish or anything. But it is sort of part of the interesting, kind of the interest to see what you're going to find when you get there. And the size. I mean, there are some pretty decent fish up there, and most of them though are in the 8 to 12 inch category. But there are some pretty nice ones, so that's part of the fun to go on too, and to see how big some of the fish are, what size they are, and what colors. I mean, you want to talk about cutthroats get beautiful with all the red. And different lakes have different intensity of colors, it seems. And it's probably got to do with what the fish are eating in the lakes as much as anything.
Katie
What would cause that? Like what different food sources might cause different colorations?
Janet
So what I've heard, and I'm not a fisheries biologist, from what I've heard though is crustaceans, when they're eating any kinds of crustaceans, it adds a lot more color to them.
Katie
Oh, like scuds and things?
Janet
Yeah.
Katie
Okay.
Janet
Yeah. So that's what I've heard about it too. But it may, it probably goes beyond that too. It could even be some water quality.
Katie
Yeah, variation, population variation.
Janet
That's one I can't answer for you, but I can tell you that there's definitely differences. Like some will be more, some lakes will have more crimson, bright reddish, some will be more pinkish, and some even more of an orangey color. And then there's some differentiation or some differences within each lake too, like between individuals. But definitely between the lakes.
Katie
Did you, do you have any like especially exciting stories from along the way? I'm sure most of them were just like right out of the middle. You go up, you hike, you catch a fish. But I feel like you can't fish 44 high alpine lakes without having something, you know, go crazy wrong or crazy interesting or crazy funny? Do you have any stories that stand out?
Janet
I have a couple. One is a word of caution, a cautionary word. Some of those lakes have marmots that you better watch your gear. I could show you pictures of my trekking poles. They seem to really like the cork handles on those. I had some adventures with marmots trying to keep them away and they're very brave at some of these lakes. Some lakes I had no problem, but other lakes, you pretty much got to carry all your stuff with you all the time. Yeah, as far as another, you know, it is the Indian Peaks Wilderness, and it's, I believe, the most visited wilderness area, certainly in Colorado, if not in the western United States.
Katie
I've heard the same.
Janet
Yeah. But one of the most interesting treks we made, and I had a friend that went with me on several of my backpack trips, is on one of them on Labor Day, we went into Caribou Lake. We come in from the 4th of July over Arapaho Pass down to Caribou and we got there. There was a group of people that had come over too and they had carried all kinds of instruments like drums and guitars and even wind instruments like flutes and while we fished the lake, they were in a campsite for the Labor Day weekend, and we had music playing the whole time. So that was sort of a unexpected thing several miles back into the wilderness. And they were pretty good—
Katie
Were they good? Okay
Janet
They were good.
Katie
I was just about to say, if they were good, I would really welcome that. If they were bad, that would kind of ruin the trip.
Janet
It wasn't exactly your wilderness experience, but, and then we came back out, we watched them, they carried them out the next day, all their instruments. Got back to my truck, and there's a peace sign traced into the dust on the back of my truck. I don't know if it was them or not, but so that was kind of a memorable experience. But other than that, I mean, it was, we saw wildlife. We didn't have any trouble with bears. I didn't have any trouble with bears. We had doe deer a lot and moose around camp. So yeah, other, that's, that was kind of the most unusual story I think I can tell you about the whole trek.
Katie
Were most of your trips solo or did you often have a partner that joined you?
Janet
A lot of my trips were solo, but in that last year I did have my friend Nancy went with me on several of the overnight backpack trips. Which was nice. Then early on, my son and my husband, when he was little, would go with me and that was kind of the day trip stuff. We did a couple of backpacks, yeah. But a lot of them there in recent years have been solo or with my friend Nancy.
Katie
How many of the lakes, roughly, were not accessible via trail?
Janet
That's a good question. Let me... I would say... I could actually count it for you, but it'll take me a little bit of time. Right now, it's running through my head. I would say about a quarter of them, probably. Of the 44 lakes, I quickly think of 10 off the top of my head that didn't have a trail going to them. There may have been a trail in the drainage, but it was over a mile off-trail to get to them.
Katie
Were most of those still fairly easy to get to, or was there a lot of deadfall, rock scrambling, that kind of... Was there a lot of sketchy terrain that you had to go over on the off-trail ones?
Janet
Most of them were not that bad to get to, but there was a few that were a lot of... Especially on the west side a lot of down timber to get around and get over down into like Hell Canyon was one like that to get down into those two legs but other but other than that it wasn't too bad on the east side there wasn't as much blowdown as on the west side
Katie
Okay yeah that's the that's like the bane of going outdoors in Colorado I feel like it's like people talk about the crowds I'm not that I'm not bothered by the crowds, but I'm really bothered by dead trees. Because I like to go off trail, especially with hunting, but with fishing too. It's nice to get off the beaten path and kind of escape the crowds. But it's hard to get away from people when going off trail means that you're climbing over trees as tall as my waist in some spots and a bunch of stuff on your back. It's just-- it's a lot.
Janet
Oh, it wears you out. A mile doing like that is like five or six miles on the trail. Even walking off trail is definitely tired than walking on trail. For sure. Yeah, there are there is a fair amount of talus. So some of those lakes, the last four or 500 yards, even the ones that didn't have trees like some of those off trail lakes were four or 500 yards of talus kind of boulder hopping across talus. Even some of the lakes the trails go to, it shows the trail goes to it. But the last couple of hundred yards are boulder hopping. Sure. Two. So yeah.
Katie
Well, I want to ask about some of the other, quote unquote, "projects" you've done since then. But is there anything else about the Indian Peaks project in particular that you want to cover or you think would be helpful for people who are going to go fish the Indian Peaks or anything at all?
Janet
I would say, I mean, it's high elevation. So be prepared for that. Like the lowest lake up there is just under 10,000 feet. The highest lake is Lake Dorothy at 12,600 feet. So if you're coming from out of state, you definitely want to think about altitude and the whole elevation, worrying about that stuff. That's one thing I'd say. And then the other thing about the Indian Peaks, because it does have so many people, depending on where you go in, you might have to get like an access pass, like going in the Brainerd Lake recreation area, they have timed entry and you also have to actually have a day either a day pass or one of those America the Beautiful federal access passes. And the trailheads on the west side, there's no timed entry but you do need to pay to enter there at the Rapa National Recreation Area and that's the same thing. So people need to know that is check ahead. Those rules are there to kind of protect the resource because it does get so much traffic and to kind of cut down on the crowding.
Katie
Yeah. Aren't there also backcountry permits required for overnight camping? At least some parts of it. I'm not sure all of it, but there's so much I think—
Janet
It's all of it.
Katie
Is it? Okay.
Janet
It's all of it is divided up into different camping areas and they yeah to camp overnight backpack and camp overnight in the Indies you definitely got to get one of those. So thank you for reminding me of that.
Katie
Yeah, I think some of the zones are like a lake, because they're like popular lakes to go camp at. I think some of the zones are a much broader area where you can camp anywhere in them. I'm not positive on that, because I haven't done a ton of overnight camping in Indian Peaks. But I want to say that some of the popular lakes are their own zone, but then there's other zones that are like a larger area of the wilderness. And maybe you know more than I do.
Janet
Yeah yeah, there's actually the zones are pretty good size. But if you camp at the lake, there's designated campsites. So at least in the permits or what is it? May, May 15, probably May one or something to September 15. I know that. And then after that, you still need the permits, but the designated campsites are gone.
Katie
OK, OK.
Janet
Or no, you don't need the permits anyway. Yeah, you do need permits to get. But after September 15, you don't need the permits anymore.
Katie
Yeah, I know parking lots fill up fast. At least the main ones, like 4th of July, Hessie, those ones. I think there might be shuttles to some of them. I'm not positive on that. But that's a place you've got to get in early if you want to get in.
Janet
Yep, Be There By Daylight is at Hessie and 4th of July. And Hessie is the one that has a shuttle that runs every 30 minutes. It's a lot to take to get to that one.
Katie
Yeah. That's got to be pretty rare for a wilderness area. I don't know any other wilderness areas that have a shuttle system.
Janet
No, the Indian Peaks definitely, it has a lot of unique management techniques.
Katie
Yeah. It's beautiful though.
Janet
It is.
Katie
I feel like it's one of the prettiest parts of the entire state and it's just right there. I mean, if you're in Boulder, you're right there.
Janet
Yeah, it is beautiful. In fact, it was going to be part of Rocky Mountain National Park, but it was taken out before the actual park was declared. And so yes, it is. It's a gorgeous place. There's no doubt about that.
Katie
I think that's kind of good that it didn't become part of the national park. I mean, the national park is great, too, for its own reasons. But it's nice to have something of that dramatic of a landscape that's not built up so much. I think it's nice to have this option for people who want to be able to see the whole park in their car and this option for people who want to get off the beaten path a little bit. And they're very similar in terms of their landscape. I'm thankful that it wasn't part of the National Park.
Janet
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Katie
Moving on to the next one, 'cause I only read about the Indian Peaks when I read your bio in the BHA magazine, but then you wrote to me and you were like, "Oh yeah, I've done James Peak and I think you had what, the Never Summer Range and State Forest State Park and all these other things that I don't think you're fully done with all of them, But walk me through, how'd the next one come about? And how did that compare to Indian Peaks?
Janet
So the next James Peak is almost as close to where I live as the Indian Peaks. And it's actually like an extension of the Indian Peaks. There's only the Rollins Pass Road and about a half mile corridor door that separates from the Indian Peaks. But I've gone down there for a lot of years, too. And then after 2019, I thought, well, I'll just go start working on fishing all those lakes and see what they all look like. So that's how I got down there. And the James Peak is pretty interesting is I think it's got as many people visiting it as the Indian Peaks, but it doesn't have the restrictions. Like you don't have to have a permit to camp overnight. You don't have to have timed entry permits, although like the East Portal Trailhead gets a ton of traffic. And so you want to get there early in the morning.
Katie
It's a big lot too though. It is a big lot. It can at least hold a lot of people.
Janet
Yeah, it can. It can. So, that's how I started going down there. I mean, it's got gorgeous scenery too, all the way through it, all the way down to Berthoud Pass. And actually, the highest lake in that is over 12,500 feet. So if you want to catch a cutthroat trout at over, it's even higher, it's like 12'5", the Lake Ethel's got them down there. Although it's a bit of a jaunt to get to it, but it's high.
Katie
Did one of these stand out over the other as being more difficult between Indian Peaks and James Peak?
Janet
I think there's no doubt that there's lakes in the Indian Peaks that are more of a trek to get to than James Peak. Yeah. In fact, all the lakes in the James Peak, you could do on day hikes. You don't have to be a super fit ultra trail runner or anything to do them. They're all within a day hike capability, but you can do backpacks too. I don't think any of the lakes in James Peak are probably more than about a five mile hike. I'm trying to think. There are off trail lakes though too, but in the Indian Peaks, there's some that are more like eight, 10 miles in to get to them.
Katie
Yeah. I haven't done a ton in the James Peak wilderness, but the ones I have done are what you're describing. feel like you're in a really really rugged location but then the hike to get in is like a mile a mile or two
Janet
Yeah, yeah or three yeah it's not that far
Katie
The one the lake trout one I'm thinking of I'm pretty sure you can see the car from where you camp like you know you park up on on kind of the top of a ridge then you hike down and you hike back to the other side to lake so you're like there's the car straight across
Janet
Yeah that's not a very long hike that's like a mile maybe a little bit more but, and it does take a four-wheel drive to get there.
Katie
I was just about to say, yeah, the road in.
Janet
The road in is an adventure. Yeah, that one, yep, that's true. And then the neat thing about the James Peak is, in some of those, there's some lakes just outside the wilderness that are a lot of fun, too, that you can pretty much drive to. Right there along the Rollins Pass Road on either side, but also down towards the south end, like in the Fall River drainage and the Billmore drainage.
Katie
How long did it take you to finish the James Peak project?
Janet
That didn't take very long because I'd already fished almost all of them. So I go up there. Yeah. I mean, when I did the Indian Peaks lakes, I also went-- I was fishing the James Peak lakes for fun at the same time. There's a lot of those lakes I fished multiple times. I've done a lot of elk hunting down in the James Peak area too over the years. Or to the elk hunting. And so you can throw your fly rod in the back too. So I'd get a lot of that done down there.
Katie
Have you had much success in the James Peak wilderness? Not to hot spot a place, but I'm just curious. Have you seen a lot of elk in there?
Janet
It's changed a lot over the years. So there's a lot more people in there, like there is everywhere on the Front Range.
Katie
Yeah, I've never hunted the James Peak wilderness. But part of that's because I assume that there's a lot of people. Not because I know anything about the elk population.
Janet
Yeah. It's definitely a lot more crowded than it used to be, like a lot of places.
Katie
Well, yeah. Yeah. Especially this close to-- like we were talking about, such a rugged and open area that's just like a half hour from Boulder, it's sure to draw a lot of people, because it's the easiest place to get to.
Janet
Yep. It's got good fishing. Both of the-- I mean, it's got a lot of cutthroats, too. And they grow pretty well in some of those lakes, too.
Katie
And these other projects, were they kind of the same as James Peak, where you're like, well, I've already fished a whole bunch of these. I might as well just finish it off. Or at this point, has it become like you're always going to have something that you're working on, just that's just what you're doing now?
Janet
Yeah, because I like to see what's over the next ridge. And so I've kind of started to work north. And the Never Summers doesn't-- I mean, outside Rocky Mountain National Park, there's only three lakes there in the Never Summer Wilderness. And then State Forest State Park is pretty nice. And then the Rawahs I've been working on. The Rawahs is definitely a fun place to go backpacking and fishing. There's a lot more loop trails that you can do. And there's good fishing up there. The north end is mostly brook trout. There's no doubt about that. But the south end's got some really nice cutthroat lakes, too.
Katie
So I haven't spent much time up there, but I have-- Well, I haven't spent much time in the Rawahs, but in that general vicinity in Colorado, that's where I think of as being the worst of the worst deadfall. Is it pretty bad in the Rawahs?
Janet
No, I don't think so. So one thing that's happened in the last couple of years, like in 2021, 2020, when I was down there, there was a lot more deadfall across the trail. But in the last two years, including 2024, there's a whole lot of work's been done in there, thanks to the Poudre Wilderness Volunteers and I think it's the Rocky Mountain Conservancy, another group. They've had volunteers and then youth and then the Larimer County Youth Corps I think have been in there. I know they've been in the Comanche Peak Wilderness. And so right like in the end of 2024 summer the trails were really nice back in there thanks to the Forest Service, these volunteers, and some of the youth people, youth groups that were going back in there. And so, yeah, I don't think so. I don't think it's that bad at all.
Katie
What about off trail?
Janet
Most of the off trail lakes I went to up there were on the edge of timber or above. So it wasn't a whole lot of tracking through the timber.
Katie
Gotcha. Okay. That might be the ticket then.
Janet
Yeah. And the very, very south end did get burned in the Comanche or the Cameron Peak fire. So that kind of, although those trails are all back open again, and the Comanche Peak Wilderness is the one that really got, most of that got burned in that fire. So the landscape, it's really interesting. The landscape has totally changed. I've been going up there for years too. You know, you're hiking through a lot of burned either black or gray tree skeletons, but the understory is coming back. There's, if you go in there at the right time, there's lots flowers, aspens are coming up thick. So it's definitely changed a lot. But the Rawahs did not. Only just a tiny bit of the Rawahs got burned.
Katie
Did the lakes in the Comanche Peaks survive? Like the fish in the lakes?
Janet
Yeah, they did. And so most of those did not. There's only one of them that the fire got anywhere really close to. And then the other ones were spared by a burn all the way up to the lakes like Comanche Lake and Emeline Lake. So the fishing is fine and the fish are still there. They didn't get affected.
Katie
Some higher powers looking down on those lakes and keeping a nice buffer around them.
Janet
Yeah like Comanche Lake, it got within a half a mile and there was a lot of down timber in there until it all got cut out. We're lucky on the Front Range. We have a lot of opportunities to go to wilderness lakes to fish And you got a lot of opportunities outside the wilderness too.
Katie
Yeah, my next question was going to be, do you have a goal of what's next on the list? I'm picturing Rocky Mountain National Park would be a big goal. That would be a ton of lakes, but it feels up the alley of the rest of these and kind of in the same vicinity of where you're working. So is that on your plate at any time?
Janet
So I've fished up there on and off for... because that's close to for a long, long time. The park has it's it's definitely is different. It has a lot more people. And the lakes are a little the lakes, I believe right now are all under. I don't they haven't been stocked in a long time, so it's all natural reproduction. So the fishing can be very variable. There are some really good guidebooks. There's two guidebooks about it. In fact, Steve Schweitzer's got a guidebook that's really good, and he just updated it. So there's a lot of information to find out about those lakes. But yeah, it gets even more traffic in Rocky Mountain National Park than the Indian Peaks. So I don't know if I'll go there. A friend and I are talking about the Wind Rivers this summer.
Katie
That'd be farther from home. No more weekend jaunts.
Janet
Yeah, or two or three day backpacks. But yeah, there's still plenty of places to go and to go back to some of the favorites and that too, and just see how it changes, if it changes over time. It's interesting, people, well, where'd you catch the biggest fish? But the interesting thing is, there are some lakes that probably will never produce very large cutthroats, but it seems like it kind of comes and goes. Is some years, or for a few years in a row, there'll be really nice cutthroats in some of these lakes, high lakes, and then it'll go through not, you know, pretty normal for a while and a different lake will have them being pretty large. So it's not, it's, you can always go back and see all the changes that go on in some of these lakes and just keep your tabs, kind of keep your fingers on the pulse and see what's going on.
Katie
Yeah. Like I said, I mean, it changes all the time. I've, I had a friend tell me about this lake that he was like, you know, we caught these like 24 inch cutthroats. And I was like, that sounds super exciting. I'm going to go there. And then I went there and, um, the biggest one we saw was maybe 18 inches.
Janet
That's a big one.
Katie
Oh, I mean, they were still big fish. Unfortunately, they were kind of covered in a fungus. I think that had wiped through. And I don't know if that's why the size had been diminished. But they also weren't interested in eating anything. They were kind of zombies, which was sad to see after hearing that at one point, it was a really big fish-producing fishery. But that's what you get is you show up and you don't know-- I mean, it wouldn't be as much fun if you showed up and knew exactly what you were going to catch, even if that is a 24-inch cutthroat. You know? It's fun to--
Janet
Exactly.
Katie
Because sometimes you're surprised in the opposite way. Sometimes you're like, I'm going to go maybe see if there's some little brook trout in there. And then you find that there's monsters and you get that fun surprise instead of being disappointed. So that's all part of the package.
Janet
Yep. Very good. Very true.
Katie
One thing that you had mentioned was fishing in Nebraska. You didn't mention it on here, but beforehand. And I want to hear, what are the fishing opportunities that you're getting into in Nebraska?
Janet
I don't go there a ton, but if you want to go catch bass, some warm water fish on your fly rod, Nebraska's got some pretty good opportunities in some of the lakes. So that's all it is. Oh,
Katie
OK.
Janet
Largemouth bass and pike, it's a good place to go.
Katie
Gotcha. I was hoping that you were going to reveal to me that there's an amazing hidden trout fishery in the northwest corner of Nebraska that we could go up and fish.
Janet
No. Well, they do have trout. I do know that I've never fished for trout in Nebraska, but what I fish for is the largemouth bass and pike.
Katie
Gotcha, gotcha.
Janet
Yeah, and some of the others like bluegills and stuff too, which are a blast. I don't know if you've ever fished for bass on a fly rod.
Katie
Yeah, a little bit.
Janet
Smallmouths are really fun on a fly rod, but yeah, it's not just trout. There's other critters. I haven't fished for carp though. I hear carp, that might be the next step is try fishing for carp.
Katie
I've heard they're very hard. I've caught one carp on the fly, but it was kind of accidental. And it seems like the people who really target them, there's a lot of skill involved in getting a carp to take your fly.
Janet
And then from what I hear, it's a pretty good fight after that, too.
Katie
I can attest to that.
Janet
Okay. The one you caught. Okay. Yes. Yeah.
Katie
The last thing I wanted to talk about, which is purely selfish, this time of year, I don't really actually have fishing on the brain that much, but hunting. And I saw that you're a trad bow hunter and I just want to hear like you know how do you get into that and what is it like because I'm an archery hunter but trad bows are a whole another level beyond compound which is what we do so I just want to hear like you know I don't talk to a lot of trad bow hunters. What's it like?
Janet
Ah well um I have been shooting a bow so long that yeah I take it for granted I mean I started shooting a bow when I was a little kid too like five or six and then for a while I did shoot a compound probably in my teens in early 20s and then I've been shooting back to recurve bows. So yeah, I like it. It's a lot of fun and they are very effective. It's not that you can get animals, you can harvest a lot of animals with them too. The hardest part probably now compared to a compound is that you can't draw and hold. At least I can't draw and hold it very long. It's a whole different way of one smooth action. Have you tried shooting trad?
Katie
I have not, no.
Janet
Okay, yeah. It would be, since I started as a little kid with a recurve and then went to a compound for a while, like probably eight or ten years, and then went back, it wasn't that hard for me. But it is, they are very different to shoot. But it's the magic. The other thing I like about about traditional archery, it's the magic of watching your arrow fly to the target and hit it. I mean, with a compound now, and I haven't shot a compound in a long time, but my son is still, he's very much into it. Those arrows go so fast and so flat that it's like the magic isn't there that comes with the traditional bow. And I mean, those arrows are flying pretty fast too. They're heavier arrows, but you could just watch. And when it hits the target, it's kind of a magic feeling that, wow, you know, it's like throwing a ball and hitting the target. You don't know exactly how you did it. It's all instinctive. So it makes it kind of magic. They're a lot lighter to carry around the mountains too.
Katie
That I'm jealous of.
Janet
When you go hunting in the mountains.
Katie
Yeah, I think what you're saying about the, like watching the arrow fly, like all these things exist with compound bows, but to a much lesser extent, like yes, your arrow has an arc, but it's almost like imperceptible. You only realize you have an arc when you hit a twig that you didn't see. But when you're actually watching it, it doesn't actually look like there's much of an arc. And it hits where your pin was sitting. So you already know where it's gonna hit for the most part. So it's kind of like one level beyond a rifle. There is a little bit more magic than that, but I can see how having that instinctual and you know where it's gonna hit in terms of, you've practiced and you're good at aiming, but you don't have that pin pointing it where it's gonna hit. And you don't have the arrow seemingly flying straight at it at kind of mock speed. You get to kind of watch it in slow motion. So I can picture how that would be a really satisfying feeling.
Janet
Yeah, that's the only way I can describe it anyway. But both, anyway, I mean, compound bows are fun too. And I still have mine. I haven't shot it in a long time, but they definitely are a good way. You can shoot definitely a heavier weight with a compound than you can with a recurve. But you can work up to shooting recurves that are pretty heavy weights too.
Katie
What's it like going from practicing on targets to actually taking shots at animals with a recurve? Because that just feels like I would be so worried about what's going to happen.
Janet
When you have an animal, you don't really spend much time thinking about it because, again, it's pretty instinctive. It's got to happen.
Katie
Yeah.
Janet
And this is one of those things like with experience, I know what shots I shouldn't take. Like I don't think it through, but I can tell. And then you can instinctively know, oh yeah, that's one, here we go. And you know, and you make them. And so this is really hard to put into words, but yeah, I don't worry about, you know, if I think I can make the shot. I think so much of it, it's a lot less mechanical and more like what's in your mind and instinctive. Like other sports too. I mean, I can compare it to throwing a baseball. Is when you throw a baseball, you don't have a sight, you just know how to throw it, how to hit, what you're aiming at. It's more like that thing, that kind of a way of doing it.
Katie
Yeah, that makes sense. You're not like looking at their glove and thinking, okay, I have to lift my arm just to this position to hit where their glove is right
Janet
now. Yeah, so no, I mean, traditional bow equipment works very well. I would, I mean, you got to think about what kind of broadheads and this can get totally controversial. People, people have opinions about what kind of broadheads, but with traditional, I like to shoot like two blade broadheads, which are going to get maximum penetration. That's my philosophy with it, and solid ones, not mechanical ones. Because most people are shooting less pounds of energy coming out of a traditional bow.
Katie
Is the hardest part getting that close to something?
Janet
You know, it's not getting close. It's getting that close and being able to get the shot off with the animal in the right position, like a broadside shot, not a head-on shot, just high percentage shots and getting away with pulling the bow back when you're that close to an animal. So that to me, and the other thing is getting close to an animal and being able to stay there long enough to get the shot. Because when you get within 20 yards, say, of an animal, it isn't going to last too long because the wind's going to swirl or something's going to happen. So or even 30 yards. I mean, 30 yards is still pretty close too. 30 yards is acceptable to me with my level of skill I have at shooting the recurve.
Katie
Okay. That's what I was going to ask next is how close do you get?
Janet
It all depends.
Katie
It sounds like 20 to 30 is still within your range.
Janet
Yes. Yes.
Katie
Okay.
Janet
I would say out to 30. I probably, yeah. I mean, I shoot targets a lot further just for Sure. Because there's no, the worst thing that can happen is you miss the target.
Katie
There's no repercussions.
Janet
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn't shoot at animals. So it's not like, yeah, getting close isn't always that hard. Sometimes it is. But staying close for very long, that's hard. That takes some luck, too.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like that's obviously more enhanced, I guess, with traditional archery, but archery in general. I mean, there's going to be a lot of things that align for things to go right. Especially compound-- I know some compound shooters go out to 50, 60, 70 yards. But I feel like most people are trying to stay under 40. And even under 40, there's just a lot of things that need to line up properly for things to go right.
Janet
Right. Yeah, it is. And it's very controversial about how far to shoot, too. And it all depends on the situation, too. Is the demeanor of the animal and all of that. Like 30 yards might be too far and a really high strung animal staring at you. It's probably going to-- it's not going to be there by the time the arrow hits there.
Katie
Did you get the pronghorn and mule deer behind you with your trad bow?
Janet
No, actually those I did not. That one's my son's, right? Is that the one you can see?
Katie
Yeah, I can see two of them.
Janet
And the other one I got just a year or two ago with a rifle, the buck.
Katie
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, pronghorn would be hard with a trad bow, I imagine. I mean, pronghorn, I have trouble getting within 100 yards of them.
Janet
I've gotten a couple with it.
Katie
Have you?
Janet
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been hunting a long time, so yeah. Water holes help with that. That's where, you know, if you can sit all day long in a water hole and it's not raining, that helps a lot, depending on where you're at.
Katie
Yeah, I've heard that with archery. I've never pronghorn hunted with my bow, but it seemed like sitting in a watering hole seems to be the preferred way to do it. But I am very impressed by the people who can crawl up to one, you know, 40 yards away because you know they seem to see me crawling from a long way.
Janet
It depends on the area. Yeah, Pawnee grasslands, shortgrass prairie, that would be pretty hard. Yeah.
Katie
Well, just to wrap up, I think I saw that you've got a book coming out or is it already out about fishing the Colorado alpine?
Janet
Yeah, so I got a book that's at printers right now. It's called Fly Fishing Northern Colorado's Wilderness Lakes, a Field Guide for the Hiking Angler. That should be out in February. I'm going to contact the local fly fishing store. At this point, that would probably be the best place to look for it. I can tell you more as it comes out and hits the streets, so to speak.
Katie
Sounds good. Well, Janet, this was a ton of of fun. I love hearing about people doing fun stuff right in my backyard here. I was so happy to come across your bio and happy that you were willing to come on today. So thank you so much for joining me.
Janet
Yeah, thanks Katie. It was good talking to you and I learned a lot. So thank you.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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