Ep 151: Fishing the Deschutes, Guiding in Alaska, and Avoiding Burnout, with Mia Sheppard
Mia Sheppard is an angler, hunter, and snowboarder. She is owner/guide at Little Creek Outfitters and Juniper River Adventures on the Deschutes River. In this episode, we talk about fishing the Deschutes, avoiding burnout in guiding and fishing, starting a new program in Alaska, getting into hunting, and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
Little Creek Outfitters site: link
Mia’s Instagram: @miasriverkitchen
Little Creek Outfitters Instagram: @littlecreekoutfitters
Facebook: /mialittlecreekoutfitters/
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Intro
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 151 with Mia Sheppard on fishing the Deschutes, guiding in Alaska, and avoiding burnout.
Katie
I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors. I know you have a wide variety of outdoor activities you do that I'm sure will cover all of them. So just tell me how you got introduced to like the outdoors in general and then we can go into fly fishing and hunting and skiing or snowboarding and all the things you've done. Just how did you get introduced to the outdoors? From an early age,
Mia
I lived outdoors. I had three sisters, and we would just play in the backyard and catch bugs and fireflies. I grew up in Tennessee, and my mom would also take me to the Great Smoky Mountains or take us there, and we'd go camping and hiking. We would also set up a tent in our backyard and just play outdoors. I just feel like we were always playing outside and going fishing. I have an uncle, my uncle Gary, really loved fishing. And so he would take us, well, let's see. So he would take us fishing. I lived in Tennessee, I lived in Florida, and we would visit him in Florida. And he would take us off the jetty and catch fish, and we'd bring it home and eat it. I think one of my favorite, well, I wouldn't catch them, but he would get little seahorses. And then he always had a fish tank with little tropical fish that he'd caught. And I just remember always really liking the seahorses. But let's see, I got into fly fishing in the mid-90s, and it was a pastime in the summertime just for something else to do when I wasn't snowboarding. So in my 20s, I got into snowboarding, and I like to say that it saved my life. gave me a different direction to go. And so I worked at a lot of different ski areas. I worked at Kirkwood and Squaw Valley and in Tahoe and then eventually moved up to Mount Hood. And I would spend the summer times working at a snowboard camp or working at a ski lodge. And the first year that I worked at a snowboard camp, I drove. So basically, I was living in Tahoe and I'm like, "Okay, I want to go work at one of these snowboard camps that I had heard about." And so at the time, I had a, I think it was a '72 Nova and I drove that up to Mount Hood and I didn't have anywhere to live. I probably had like a couple hundred bucks in my pocket and I set up a camp at a place called Trillium Lake and basically just camped out for three months and I'd go up to the snow and dig a half pipe with some people I'd met and I waited tables at Timberline Lodge and I got a free ski pass. And so I did that for quite a few years and just chased the snow. And then when I wasn't snowboarding, I got introduced to fly fishing in about '96. And some guys that I would snowboard with, Josh Lynn and Marty Shepard taught me how to fly fish on the Deschutes River. It was during a salmon fly hatch. I fell in love with it. I caught a trout and learned how to tie some knots. Then a few years later, Marty, well, him and I started dating. Then We got married and bought a business and the rest is history. That is in a nutshell. There's definitely a lot there, but I could talk for hours about it, but I consolidated it all.
Katie
Yeah, I do have some questions along the way. The first is, how did you get introduced to skiing growing up in Tennessee? Or did you move out west and then pick it up once you arrived out there?
Mia
So my mom, when I was 14, my mom picked us up and well, she actually got remarried. And then we moved out to California. And then we would go up to Tahoe and go skiing. And then eventually I met some people that snowboarded. And then I just thought that was really fun. And so I started snowboarding. And gosh, the first year I snowboarded, this is funny, but we made fake passes. You can't do that anymore.
Katie
Yeah, no, that'd be hard.
Mia
And yeah, so we made fake passes and they worked and we would go snowboarding on the weekends with these people I met.
Katie
How do you make a fake snowboard pass? What was the, in what form did the pass exist? 'Cause I'm picturing like, you know, your photo, your barcode and all this stuff that, you know, if you did it today, they'd be like, "No, this is not real." But like, what were you trying to mimic?
Mia
There wasn't a driver's license. I mean, basically it looked like a driver's license, but not like a driver's license that we have today. I mean, it was really basic. It was just like your photo and then the name of the ski area. And then it was like laminated with some cheesy laminate. So it was, I mean, this is again, this is, shoot, how many years ago? 25, over 25 years ago, almost 30 years ago. So a long time ago and things were way simpler. And, you know, obviously they didn't think anyone was gonna be making fake passes, but there was like a handful of us that did it.
Katie
So they didn't have anything that they scanned. Would you just like pull this thing out and flash it and that was your way in?
Mia
Yeah, that was it. There was no scanning. It was just, you know, had the pass, like a little punched hole and, you know, a shoestring and hung it around my neck.
Katie
And how long did you get away with this?
Mia
For a whole season.
Katie
Okay. One season. I wasn't sure if you like dragged it out over years.
Mia
No, I, you know, really, I mean, when it comes down to it, I didn't want the, maybe the bad karma. I'm like, "No, this isn't, I mean, this isn't right. But at the time, I was a teenager. Like, I didn't have any money. I didn't have anyone buying me passes. And I went, "Okay, well, this sounds like a good idea." And these guys were doing it. So, sure, you can make me one.
Katie
I bet the penalties back then weren't as big of a deal either. Like, I don't know, but now I know if they catch you with like a fake pass, they're gonna, you're probably gonna get hit with a fine, lose your pass, all the whole nine yards. I feel like back then what happens in my head is they just pull it from you and then you're just forced to buy a pass.
Mia
Yeah, yeah for sure probably. I mean I remember people and I think I even did this a couple times, but you could like just a pass at a ski area if you just bought a day pass was on the little metal like not a lanyard but the little metal piece and then the little sticky pass went over that. Yeah, and you could easily like, you know cut that Kind of peel the pass back and then and then clip it and then Transfer it to your friends. And I mean, I don't think you can do that anymore I haven't bought a pass and I don't know like eight years or something Her day pass but yeah, we would do that too. I'm gonna you know, hopefully I don't get arrested I'm sure there's some ski operators
Katie
The statute of limitations on this is probably passed [laughter]
Mia
Yeah, probably. [laughter]
Katie
But we'll see. Maybe they've got people out there listening just for admissions like this 30 years ago of people faking their passes. [laughter] One other thing I wanted to ask about that you didn't mention here but you mentioned it in the document I sent over was that you worked on a commercial fishing vessel in Alaska and I really want to hear what that was like. That sounds, I mean you hear about it as being a dangerous and very rough job. I just want to hear what your experience was.
Mia
Yeah, that was definitely something I didn't mention. Part of my travel, snowboarding and also fishing, I ended up in Alaska. I worked on crab fishing boats, salmon gill netters. It all started at Stevens Pass. Stevens Pass was a ski area out of Washington and a couple guys there that I knew through snowboarding would go up in the wintertime and work on crab boats. And so they offered me a job. They're like, "Hey, we're looking for a cook on a boat and if you're interested, the captain's hiring." to change or wanted to do something different. I think that was in like '97 or '98. I'd never been to Alaska and I thought, "Wow, this is a really great opportunity to go up to Alaska and work on a big boat." It sounded great. It sounded like a lot of fun and a little bit dangerous. Anyway, just an adventure, a challenge. All those things just really appealed to me. I got a job cooking, and I would also get out on deck and help chop bait and do other things like that. This boat was called the Ocean Fury. It was 124 foot. It's called a Marco. Really beautiful boats. And we were based in Dutch Harbor. And we would go out into the Bering Sea and we would drop crab pots and stay out there for a couple weeks at a time until the boat was full of crab. And then we would go back into Dutch Harbor and drop it off at the cannery. And while we were in Dutch Harbor, we would refuel and we'd go out to the bar and have lot of fun. But it was really hard work and really long hours. And people out there, they work hard, they play hard. And I was able to, after a couple months, have a few thousand bucks or more, which was great. And so I ended up staying longer in Alaska. And I went heli-skiing in Valdez, which was really fun. And I also just drove around and discovered Alyeska. And so Alyeska was really amazing. And in fact, I ended up moving up there the next year. And so I lived in Alyeska. And I've lived in Kodiak and a few other, yeah, so Kodiak, Alaska. I love, absolutely adore Alaska. And Marty and I, we bought property near Wasilla probably about 20 years ago or more. And because there was supposed to be, they were going to be putting in a ski area at Hatcher's Pass and they eventually did. But we bought property there with the intention of building. And then that didn't happen because we moved back to Oregon and purchased Little Creek Outfitters, our business. And then, yeah, so anyway, Little Creek Outfitters has kept us really busy for the last 22 years. And we're actually still trying to get back to Alaska. So I don't know, that was jumping all over, but hoping to come full circle.
Katie
Yeah, I was going to ask about this later, but it kind of makes sense right now, even before we get into what you guys do now in Oregon. You're trying to start a program up in Alaska. I got the impression it would be related to your outfitter, but I don't know. Can you tell me what that's all about?
Mia
Yeah. Well, yeah, Marty and I, I mean, just we've fished up in Alaska for a long time. But we did ignore it for, shoot, probably 18 years or longer. Just being busy in Oregon, having a family, having a business to run. And a few years ago, we just really missed it and went, you know, it's just been too long. We need to get back to Alaska. And one of the areas I've always adored is the Kenai and just absolutely love that area. And so we started going back there and just fishing. And so we're both steelheaders. I mean, we love all fish. We love salmon and we love steelhead. And one of the rivers there has steelhead in it, and that's on the Kenai Peninsula. And so we have just been kind of thinking, you know, maybe we should try to expand and try to start something there. And it just makes sense because it also kind of fills in gaps while we're not guiding here in Oregon. And also, Oregon in the last few years has had really low steelhead numbers and there's just been a lot of bad press, a lot of negativity around being a steelhead angler and guide down here. And the regulations are... It's actually harder to be guide down here. You have to have on certain rivers like the Deschutes where we guide, you have to have what's called an SRP, Special Recreational Permit, and you need one on the Grand Ronde, you need one on the Indiande, and a lot of different western rivers, you got to have these permits to run commercial trips. And actually, in Alaska, it's a little different, a little easier. And again, I've been steelhead fishing for 22, no, longer than that, 24 years. And so It just kind of makes sense to branch out and do something different. And plus I'm a little bored of Oregon rivers. I mean, I hate to say that, but it's just, I mean, everyone loves change. I mean, don't you love change? It feels good. It feels good to learn something new and do something different. Change is good.
Katie
Yeah. I think this kind of comes back to something we had been discussing before we hit record, just how for guiding or for just fishing the same river over and over again, like you can kind of get burned out or some people can and I definitely can. I'm a jack-of-all-trades. I do a lot of things that aren't fishing and I think frankly it like really helps me because I think I get bored of fishing if I did it all day every day for you know every day of the year. I need to mix things up so I can totally understand what you mean by just kind of like going to the same place over and over and over again and you know in some ways it's really nice to get to know a place that well. Like there's a satisfaction of really immersing yourself in a place, but there's also so many places around the world to see and so little time. I totally feel what you're saying there.
Mia
Yeah, exactly. To be a good guide, one of those attributions is just to know your waters and know it well. Know where that one fish is going to be, at what water level. That experience definitely makes you a a better guide for sure. But I love change and I love just, you know, it just, it feels good to also be able to go to a new piece of water and figure it out. And with the, you know, with my experience, just go, okay, I can do this. And, and, you know, I, I know where to find those fish and I know, you know, what it takes and to be successful and just to be able to go somewhere and figure it out and be successful feels really good. And just, again, I just love exploring new water. And then if I can show people how to catch a fish on that piece of water, it's success. It's for me, it feels good. And yeah, I just love that.
Katie
Yeah, I wanted to know what kind of format this is 'cause you had labeled it a program I wasn't sure if that was more like an event or even a yearly event or if you're starting a wing of your business, it's going to look permanently up there and whether you would be up there. What is this compared to the outfitter that you have down in Oregon? How does this work?
Mia
Well, I think we're still trying to figure it out. We last year bought a piece of property with the intention to develop it and then start a little spay hostel, let's call it. So just a place where people can come and stay and also get away from the Alaska high prices where it's like $14,000 to go fishing. Offer something that's a little bit more affordable. Anyway, we ended up selling that piece of property because building up in Alaska was just finding the right contractor. It was really difficult. Also, the infrastructure was turning out to be way too expensive. And so we did sell the piece of property. And now we are now looking to buy something that's already developed. And that's kind of the direction it's going. And I think to start, we'll just focus on, you know, doing something for a month during the steelhead season up there. And so it's going to be really short term. It's going to be kind of, I mean, we're going to be bouncing back between the Deschutes and the Grand Ronde and the John Day and then just trying to incorporate slowly, you know, a month in Alaska and just filling in gaps really. And so, you know, it's just becomes a part of the bigger, all the bigger experiences I guess that we offer.
Katie
Gotcha. Well, that sounds like a fun thing and like I said, I'm with you. I think that sounds just like a nice way to mix things up and it'll probably keep you not just excited while you're in Alaska, you know, doing something different but also like making home feel refreshing again too because you don't feel that kind of staleness kicking in. You know you've got something on the corner that's gonna mix things up. So I could see that just kind of like making both sides of that better for you, at least from my perspective. And so to explain,
Mia
I guess I didn't really explain it in detail, but you know guide people, take two people in a boat on the river, take them fishing for the day, offer a place to stay, and then with that you know just a little like mini lodge experience where you know it wouldn't be really fancy five star dining just you know offer some really good home-cooked meals and you know all the all the cart breakfast and and then hey let's go hit the river
Katie
well I want to hear a little bit about fishing the Deschutes we don't have to go into like you know super crazy detail and all the techniques and everything but um you know I've never fished the Deschutes I've been to Bend Oregon so That's the closest I've come to fishing the Deschutes, but I did not fish while I was there. So, just tell me what it's like fishing on the Deschutes and guiding on the Deschutes and what are you fishing for, how are you fishing? What would someone expect if they came fishing there?
Mia
Yeah, so Bend is the upper Deschutes and that's not where we guide. I don't even know if anyone actually guides the upper Deschutes. a lot different river than what's called the Lower Deschutes. And Lower Deschutes is below Pelton Dam. It's the last how many miles? I should know exactly. But we guide from about Maupin down all the way to the mouth, which is a total of 1725 plus another maybe 10 miles. So that's, you know, how many, 55 to 70 miles of river that we guide. And yeah, it's a really gorgeous desert river. And there's, so yeah, so Central Oregon, it is located, so the headwaters is located, just, I guess, south of Bend. And the lower, and the river flows north, and then the mouth of it is, enters into the Columbia River. So, the Deschutes is a tributary to the Columbia River, and it has trout in it and steelhead. And the steelhead, the best months to steelhead fish are basically anywhere in, well, end of July, the river's too warm, but August through October, so about three months there. And then the trout season is, you know, I mean, you could start trout fishing. I mean, you can trout fish now and it's February. It's really super cold, but the best time to start trout fishing is April through mid-June. The river gets too warm to really fish it in June and July. And that has to do with dams and some things that the dams have done. So I won't get into that too much, but they've really altered the water temperatures. But it's a really great fishery, really fun trout fishery. The salmon fly season happens in March, or sorry, May. So the salmon fly season happens in May, and you get these really big salmon flies and golden stones. And that is, of course, anyone that's trout fisherman loves to fish for the salmon fly hatch. And that's really fun. And then the steelhead season, we're using what's called two-handed rods and we're spay casting and using floating lines and fishing really small little classic flies. And so just absolutely love it. And the river is, you know, just loaded with wildlife. Mule deer, bighorn sheep, coyotes, I even saw a cougar last year, which was crazy, and lots of birds and songbirds and raptors. And so, yeah, it's a really cool place.
Katie
What do you like about steelhead fishing? I know there's probably like a zillion things, but I feel like when I hear people talk about steelhead fishing, particularly in the, you know, the true ocean run steelhead in the Pacific Northwest, there's, people talk about it with kind of like a magical air, you know, in a way that's different than I hear people talking about other kinds of fly fishing for trout and other species. The people who go out there and swing flies for two weeks to get a single bite. Most people would say, "I'm not going to go fishing," if that's the case. People are really drawn into this. What is it about swinging flies for steelhead that really gets people, especially up in the Pacific Northwest?
Mia
For me, I think it's just this really mystical fish that goes out to the ocean and they spend a couple of years in the ocean and then they come back to their home water. Nobody really knows what happens when they're out there, so there's just this whole mystique to them. They're just these beautiful, when they come in to the river, they're silver and they might have little rosy cheeks. They're just really gorgeous fish. Just swinging a fly is something that's really special. When they hit, when you get a bite, you just feel this electricity that goes up the rod into your hand, into your heart, and your heart starts to sputter, and then the fish starts to jump and literally just spinning cartwheels and you just lose everything. I mean, anything that you're thinking about doesn't matter anymore. They really remove you from that space of everything, if that makes sense.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's just a more exaggerated version of something I hear a lot of people talk about with fly fishing in general is that you've kind of got to be focused on it the whole time and it you know takes your mind off of whatever else you're thinking about but I feel like you're just describing like a more ramped up version of that you know a bigger fish maybe a rare take that happens less frequently so when it happens it's even more kind of attention-grabbing than than just typical like fly casting to trout.
Mia
Yeah there I mean that's the thing like the big difference is it there's I I seem like there's thousands of trout or when you're trout fishing or when I'm trout fishing, like I expect to catch trout, like, "Okay, I'm going to this run and there's going to be a trout here, there's going to be a trout there and I'm going to get them." And with steelhead, you have to work a lot harder. You're really hunting for the fish. And I think that's also what really attracts me is that you have to continually keep moving and stepping down the water. We're actually not fishing from a boat. We're getting out of the boat and standing in the run. You're more connected to the river. I really feel like you're a piece of something that's bigger. You have the water moving around your waders and you're stepping down these runs just searching for a fish. It's just really cool. I think it's just that hunting instinct, too, that just really drives me and attracts me to it.
Katie
I want to know what it's like guiding for seal head, kind of keeping all this in mind because I used to do some guiding and it was for exclusively trout. We'd always preface that we're out here to learn to fish or to improve skills or just be outside. But there was also kind of an understanding of like, yeah, but people are here to catch fish and the more fish they catch, the happier they're going to be. And you kind of prefaced that, but there's that understanding as well. Because Steelhead, it seems to be a lot more about the act of doing it and being out there and hoping for that one moment. It feels like there's a lot less time spent actually bringing fish into your hand. So how do you work with clients on that who maybe don't have a lot of experience with Steelhead and trying to convey to them, you know, we're not gonna go out there and slam a hundred fish like you may have done on some like brook trout stream somewhere else. You know, how do you convey like the how to have that that meaningful fun that's not always about like bringing in a ton of fish?
Mia
Yeah that's a that's a really good question. And you know there are people out there and there's guides out there that even you know it's like they measure their success by the number a fish they catch. And for us, success is all about having a good time. And I think trying to get people to experience a river in a different way and not make it about the catching of the fish is, I think, really important. You know, it's just getting them jacked up, just like, "Hey, man, you know, you're going to come out here. We're going to float a river. We're going to see all this beautiful wildlife. We're going to have a good time. You're going to learn the river, you're going to eat a good lunch, and just be, you're not at work. Come on, you're not in an office, how much better can that get? Just really prepping people too ahead of time. If they're a new angler to steelhead fishing or new to us, it's like, yeah, you're not going to, this isn't about catching fish. You're fishing for one steelhead. I'm just setting people up for reality. If we get three, that's great. If you get zero, that could be the reality for the day. But yeah, it's just just getting out here and just being and doing something that's different besides working.
Katie
Right.
Mia
Yeah.
Katie
Do clients typically take that well? Do most people come and say, "Yeah, that's what I'm here for. I'm open to experiencing this." Or do you have pushback from people who, despite the warning about what they're trying to get, still have a bad attitude about it?
Mia
I think after doing this for over 22 years, we have a lot of returning clients and people that are steelheaders, they know what to expect. If they've been chasing steel for a while or even if they do some research ahead of time, they know that, especially in the Pacific Northwest and lately, numbers have been low. the reality is, is you're just getting out there and you're speycasting. And that's part of it too. I think a lot of people that are steelheaders, they're using two-handed rods in the Pacific Northwest and they're speycasting. And so learning how to speycast is really super fun. And it's just like speycasting with a two-handed rod is like a ballerina dancer. It really is. It's a really a fine art. It's fun. And some people just, you know, they do come out and they're like, "Okay, well, I just want to learn how to get better at my single spay." And so, you know, they're thinking about that and not thinking about catching the fish. So, but again, everyone that comes fishing with us, they're just, they're out here for the experience. And yes, I love to see a fish caught, but that's just the bonus. It really is.
Katie
How do you avoid getting burned out? Coming back to our conversation earlier, especially as somebody who likes change. Yes, I know you're adding the Alaska portion of this, but that's still a small portion of your life spent doing this and guiding. How do you keep yourself engaged and excited about it?
Mia
Having long breaks. So our steelhead season, our main steelhead season is like August. We start guiding about August 10th for summer. And this is for summer steelhead. And so, you know, August 5th, August 10th, and then we end it about December 1st and that's over and over that course we're on the Deschutes, John Day and the Grand Ronde. And so it's really nice to have that change of scenery and be fishing different rivers. So that really helps a lot. And then after Thanksgiving, you know, gosh, we take about a month off and just kind of recoup. And then in the wintertime this This year, Marty's doing all the steelhead trips, winter trips on the Sandy, and I've been focusing more on just the marketing and booking our trips and also raising our daughter who is 17 years old, Teagan. Having a teenager is totally different. I want to make sure that she is successful and part of that is right now being present for her, especially in these last two years of school. I feel like she really, really needs that. She needs a strong support system from the parents. I just constantly have to check in with her and make sure she's doing good. I just want to be there for her.
Katie
Yeah. I saw in the notes you wrote ahead of time that you kind of wanted to compare running a river to parenting and you have a daughter and your mom raised you and now you're raising your daughter and it's kind of like come full circle for you. I don't know where you want to take that, but I just want to hear where you want to take that, I guess.
Mia
Oh my gosh. I know. Well, rivers are, they're winding and changing and changing direction and they're moving fast and moving slow. And, you know, and they rise and fall and, and there's just, there's, they're very dynamic. And I feel like raising a kid is the same, same way. Nothing is consistent. And you, you definitely, you have these rocks and bumps and you got to adjust. And, you know, when you're rowing a boat, it's like, okay, I want to move, you know, I want to avoid that hole or want to get around that rock. And I feel like parenting is the same way. I mean, it really is. And just finding, sometimes you got to, you know, you just have to be on top of things. When you're parenting, especially a teenager, like, you know, the same being rowing a boat, like, you know, like, all right, I know there's a big rapid coming up. And I want to set myself up and I want a smooth line and parenting. Okay, just like that. Like, all right, Teagan's grades aren't doing that well. And I'm going to, you know, talk to her teachers more, and I'm going to help her with her English assignment. And I'm going to, you know, make sure she has breakfast in the morning. And so literally, it's kind of the same. It is. And also, you know, my mom, and you know, it was really important for her to get us out in nature. And so that's been a big part of our parenting as well, is raising Tian on the water and raising her outdoors to respect animals and nature and people and places. And so she doesn't like fishing, but she does like rowing boats and being on the water. And so when she was young, I think her first river trip, she was six months old. And we would take her. So in the summertime, when we were doing our smallmouth bass trips, I would work in the gearboat. So we would have a gearboater and another person that's called a swamper. So basically, I'd be the swamper or just help set up camp. But I was able to hold Teagan, carry Teagan, bring the play pack, set that up, put her in it. And so for a couple years, that was part of the juggling of being an outfitter and then also having a kid. And then the older she got, we started pawning her off on grandma and also had some really good neighbors that would watch her. But now she will come out on trips with us and she helps set up cots. So she basically is a swamper and she will set up camp and she likes to help row the boats and she's really good. She's a really strong worker and I'm really proud to say as a parent, like giving her those work ethics of like, okay, like, you know, you can't just like get tip money or you can't just get, I shouldn't say tip money, but you know, you can't just get a, you know, a allowance. There we go. I was blanking on that, but you know, I'm not just going to give you an allowance for nothing like you know just hey let's help out around here and yeah.
Katie
So if she hasn't taken to the fishing is that has there been a part of you that's you know disappointed not like in her obviously but just you know maybe building this up in your mind like I'm gonna you know raise my kid on the river and she's gonna take to fishing just as much as I did and then when that's not the case is there any level of like disappointment or do you just get so much joy from watching her grow into who she is that it's kind of irrelevant to you whether she picks up the same passion that you have.
Mia
Yeah. I just want to – What's important to me is making sure she's happy and whatever that is, whatever path she takes. At first, I definitely thought that, "Wow. Well, we're fishermen, so she'll get into it and enjoy it too." I think, you know, she was just raised around it. And so she did it a lot. I remember at some point, she might've been 11 years old, and she's just like, "I don't wanna do that, it's boring." She's like, "I've already done it, and I can catch a bass and I can catch a trout." And she's like, "Eh, I don't wanna do it anymore." And so she's an artist and that's her passion, and that's kind of the direction she's taking. and I'm really happy to see her doing that and pursuing something that she really enjoys. And eventually she might go fishing again, but if she doesn't, that's fine. She still likes to go camping and being on the water with us, which is great.
Katie
That's good. I mean, at the end of the day, as great as it would be to have her fish with you, I feel like just having her around while you get to do the things that you wanna do and she's happy and you're happy, You could have it a lot worse than that. Yeah,
Mia
for sure. She's such a good kid. We are really, really lucky to have her as a daughter. She's going to Maupin High School and living in Maupin is a really great place to raise a kid. I'm really stoked to be here. It's a really small school. There's maybe only about 80, 90 kids in the high school. So it's very intimate. The teachers all, everyone knows your business and there's no way that any kid is going to get to sneak out or do something crazy because everyone will know about it.
Katie
Well, last thing I wanted to ask about that I've selfishly been waiting to ask because that's the mindset I'm in this time of year, but I know you do a lot of hunting too. And I want to hear about some of that and also you mentioned the North American model of wildlife conservation in your document and I don't think we've ever talked about that on the show. I know you said you're not an expert and I don't expect you to be, but I would love for you to kind of give like an overview of that for people who aren't familiar with it, especially anglers, because I feel like it comes up a lot more in the hunting world just because the rules feel, I guess, bigger, you know, in the hunting world. Not that they exist more than they do in the fishing world, but, you know, with catch and release fishing a lot of them aren't really as relevant or they don't feel as relevant, but, you know, this does apply to both fishing and hunting. So I would love for you to just tell me about how you got into hunting, what kinds of things you do these days, and then talk a little bit about the North American model.
Mia
Okay, yeah, gosh, so how did I get into hunting? It started with bird hunting and and wow gosh what's funny is I think it actually, first I got my first gun it was a Remington 12 gauge and I was going to go out duck hunting or I did I went out duck hunting with a couple friends of mine from Stevens Pass. And it was really fun. We'd go out there and make some noise and get up early and set out the decoys. But I never shot anything. And for a couple years, I kind of put the gun in the corner. And then it was in like 2001, I think it was, and Marty And I started dating and I actually went to visit him. He was working for Little Creek Outfitters before we bought it, over on the John Day. And so I went out to the John Day to go visit him. And I remember the first time seeing the John Day and it was just this like moonscape, just of rocks and no trees and just a lot of grass. And it was just very different from what I was used to. And yeah, I had a lab at the time, and just looking for something to do out there besides fishing, I went and started walking around the hills, and I had heard about these birds called chukar. I went, "That's weird. What's a chukar?" And so, this local guy was like, "Yeah, it's this bird that has a little beak, and it laughs at you. They're all over the hills, and just go take your dog and walk around, and you'll find him. And so I did, and I just fell in love with it. There's just something about it. I just love being in the wide open space. And again, you're looking for these birds, but if you hunt with a dog, it's a partnership. And the dog is relying on you, and you're relying on the dog to find the bird. The lab that I had was not the best, and he didn't know how to hunt. We eventually got a poodle pointer from a guy named Bob Barris out of Idaho and Cedar was his name and he was an amazing dog and could find Chukar all over the place and just watching a dog a pointer just run around and point birds and then you see this block of birds get up and if you hit one That's awesome. I'm not the best shot and Chukar are really super fast They they literally they don't flutter up They just are like little jets and go straight up and then straight down and I shouldn't say straight up But they'll just like sometimes just you know, they'll they'll kind of come up I don't know 20 feet and then they just Yeah, they just fly straight downhill. So they're really super fast and sporty It's better to I found it's better and it's I have more success hunting them when The air temperatures drop and there's a little frost on the ground. And so that really You know, it just it's cold And so if you're up early in the morning you go out looking for him You have a better chance of hitting birds because it's yeah, they're they're just cold and a little stunted, right? and the first thing I did. And then, gosh, I've done some mule deer hunting. I wasn't successful for many years because I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have anyone teach me how to hunt. And so I'd just go out there and walk around. And I wasn't getting up early. I'd be like, "Okay, well, it's 8 o'clock. I'm getting out of bed. I'm going to go walk around and look for something. That really didn't work too well. Eventually, I harvested my first deer on the shoots with a friend of ours, Ron Walp, who is an amazing friend. Just showed me the ropes and some of his techniques of rolling rocks down a hill. and seeing if a deer jumps out of some bushes. But more or less just scouting and really just staying low, hiding behind sagebrush and just walking up the canyons and being up early. I mean, that's really one of the keys to success is you get up when it's dark and you start walking up the hill and find a little spot where you can glass. And yeah, it's fun. I love it.
Katie
Yeah, and I think you mentioned in your email to me that, did your husband get a bighorn sheep?
Mia
Yeah, so Marty, he, in 2019, was a lucky person and drew a bighorn sheep tag on the Deschutes River. And so in Oregon, it's not a point system. And so you don't, you don't get points. And so every year, it's just a new draw. And, and, you know, it's just it's just the luck of the draw. And on the let's see, the deschutes, there's a total, there's a west side, east side, the west side has a total of, well, there's three seasons on both sides and there's, I think, a total on the west side of four, eight, 11 tags that Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife gives out. And then I think there's nine on the east side. And you have a couple thousand people that are putting in. I know people that have been putting in for 30 years, or he's been putting in longer than that, and he's never drawn. Marty, it was his first time putting in for the Deschutes. Oh, wow. He got a tag. That was quite exciting. He put a lot of work into scouting and figuring out how to be a sheep so that he could get one and been figuring out how to score them, which is really important because you don't want to harvest a young ram or a three or five year old. You want to get an older ram that's been around a while and might not make get another winner or two. I think his ended up being a 10-year-old ram and it scored, it was like a 171 and 3/8 or something like that. It was a nice animal and it tasted delicious.
Katie
Yeah, you and I talked briefly about this, but I'm not sure what system is better. I'm the person you know who's been putting in for 30 years and still hasn't drawn, I can see that being frustrating because, you know, you don't, there's no guarantee you'll ever get it. And here in Colorado we have preference points, which on one hand is good when you have enough points because you know you'll draw. And you know, you paid your dues, you put in enough, you will draw the tag. On the other hand, if you don't have the most points, you won't draw the tags. And you know that. And so there's no, like, glimmer of hope. Like maybe I'll get it this year. Like you're not going to get it if you don't have the right number of points. So yeah, there's pros and cons and I guess it's good that, you know, the states out west all have kind of different systems. They all, there's a couple of different categories of systems they follow, but you know, I'm guessing every state is slightly different even though it's in the same kind of category. And so the strategy might just be to apply in multiple states so you have all these different systems kind of working in your favor if you can. But I don't know if there's any one way that will truly make everybody happy because there's just too many pros and cons to every system I've heard of.
Mia
Yeah, and there's definitely, I mean, we've applied a couple times in Idaho and Nevada and I mean, there's people, you know, sheep hunters are really, I mean, they're worse than steelheaders. I mean, they really geek out on it and they strive to get these grand slams and every sheep. There's guys that are spending a lot of money to do it. I pay attention a little bit to the Wild Sheep Foundation, and they have a banquet every January in Reno. This year, all the states will, Western states will donate like a governor's tag. And so the governor's tag, you know, you can, if you get it, you can, you know, I think it's any unit you can go hunt. And, and so the governor's tag for Oregon, I want to say went for over half a million and I think Colorado's tag went for even more than that.
Katie
I thought I heard Arizona's went for over a million, but I could be wrong. I thought someone broke a million.
Mia
It's so crazy. I mean, I'm like, imagine if people would pay that much to catch a steelhead. Like, like, seriously, like, like, there's something wrong with the picture, like, but but that's the thing, like you can harvest an animal like a mammal, you know, bighorn or a deer, and, and you're in you're eating and you're getting meat, whereas with a steelhead, it's, you know, catch and release. And I don't know if that has something to do with it, but I just don't feel like, you know, a steelhead should be worth, you know, a million dollars to go out and get one, and maybe eventually it will get to that point, but I don't know.
Katie
Well, and what it represents, I feel like, you know, no one wants to pay a million dollars to get a steelhead, but I would hope that there's people out there willing to pay a million dollars to keep steelhead able to exist, you know, like their habitat and everything, all the struggles they face. I'd like to think that somebody out there cares enough to to pay the same amount if they had if they had the means you know whoever has the means to pay a million dollars for a big horn sheep tag it'd be nice if someone had the same desire to to help salmon and steelhead populations and habitat loss and all that but I mean at the end of the day it's it's it's hard I listened to a couple other podcasts about those governor's tags and kind of divided because there's the mentality of like those rich people that are just gonna go buy a big sheep. It's kind of a disgusting idea for people who are just kind of going out and trying to scratch out an animal or two to fill their freezers, but at the same time, that's a million dollars toward conservation, which kind of brings us over to the North American model a little bit, if you want to talk about that. But all this money going toward conservation, it's kind of hard to argue that that's a bad thing.
Mia
Yeah. And I really didn't know about the North American model of conservation until I worked for a nonprofit for seven years called the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership as the Oregon field representative. And that's really where I learned about it, you know, and how important it is for, you know, the conservation of fish and wildlife. And so it's basically a philosophy or, you know, a system of policies to safeguard fish and wildlife through science and management. And there's seven principles. There's, let's see, I only know a couple of them, but basically the principles are wildlife is in a public trust. And so that means, you know, everyone, you know, everyone has a right to go harvest an animal. But also the other principle is, you know, it's opportunity for all. So again, everyone has a right to hunt and fish. And then also another principle is, let's see, wildlife can only be killed for legitimate purposes. And so, which is really important, you know, and so hunt, you know, basically for food. That's the legitimate purpose. And then it's also, you know, a science-based model on the management of fish and wildlife. It was a model that actually was created in, I think, the late or the mid-1800s. It was Boone and Crockett Club. Members of that club that basically came together and said, "We need to come up with a model because we're losing our wildlife and we need some better management and we need so that animals are around for future generations. And so I definitely think it's more of a, for some reason, a hunting of wildlife model. It doesn't get talked about so much in fishing, and even though it is supposed to be a model for fishing too, but I don't hear people really talking about it are applying it much in that regard.
Katie
I guess one of the tenets that I didn't hear you mention that it's actually probably most applicable to fishing is that you can't sell wild meat. It's illegal to sell wild game the same way you couldn't go catch a bunch of fish and then sell them either. That would also be illegal just to dissuade people from market hunting. You know, that's what wiped out so many animals over the years. That's a big reason that animal populations bounce back. You're not allowed to sell the meat. Not that they don't all apply to fishing, but I think that's a big one. I would guess that most anglers know that they're not allowed to catch a fish and sell it to somebody else.
Mia
Yeah. Well, yeah. I think that if these primitive principles didn't exist, I mean, the poaching, I mean, that's what we have now. And fish or deer or whatever, you know, there's people that do it. But it probably would be worse if these models didn't exist.
Katie
Well, Mia, just to wrap up, I want to hear a couple final thoughts about your outfitter. Where can people find you if they wanted to come book a trip with you? Anything else you want to share about the Deschutes or fishing with you that we didn't get to cover today that you think would be worth mentioning? I'll just leave the floor open to you to wrap things out.
Mia
Sure. So Little Creek Outfitters is our company and we started in 2003 and we guide on the Deschutes and the John Day, the Grand Ronde and the Sandy River for steelhead smallmouth bass on the John Day, which is really super fun. And that season's in June. If you like smallmouth bass, it is a place to experience it. We can get 50 fish to 100 fish a day. It's really silly. And then also we fish for trout on the Deschutes and the Grand Ronde. The Grand Ronde has an amazing trout fishery and it's a really special river. We focus on doing multi-day trips and so multi-day camp trips that are three to five days long and so we'll cover anywhere from 35 to 45 miles of river on any of those rivers I mentioned. And so we have a gearboater that goes down and sets up camp and makes all the food and sets up the tents. And you're sleeping on a cot with a paco pad. And we're making Dutch oven food and we're, you know, everything is fresh and homemade and absolutely delicious. We really take a lot of pride in making the camps comfortable and just having a good time. Let's see. We also do some trips on the Oahe River, which is in Eastern Oregon, really beautiful, stunning, small little mini Grand Canyon. We just do float trips. It isn't anything fishing. That's a 52-mile section of river we float from, it's called Rome to Birch Creek. It's a lot of class 3, 4 rapids, and just hiking and hot springs. It's really good time as well.
Katie
That sounds lovely. How about a website if people were looking to come find you?
Mia
Yeah, our website is I think just www.littlecreekoutfitters.com.
Katie
I'll link it in the show notes in case it's wrong.
Mia
So yeah, the email is the same. I think it's littlecreekoutfitters@gmail.com. Then I have an Instagram as well. It's just @miaflora2. Little Creek Outfitters is on Instagram too. What else? Facebook. It's really easy to find us. No one is hiding these days.
Katie
Sure. Yeah. I'm guessing most people can find you just by Googling this. I just like to give people a chance to plug themselves. But I'll link everything you provided to me too, so people can get to you easily if they're looking for you.
Mia
Yeah, yeah, thanks. And one other thing I wanna mention is, I'm really excited to bring back a big event called the Sandy River Spade Clave, and that's May 9th and 10th at Oxbow Park in Gresham, Oregon. And it's just a big get together, big clave of folks to try and test rods. And there's going to be like 15 presenters, a lot of really great people in the industry, giving presentations and a class. And so people like Dec Hogan and Scott O'Donnell, Marty, I mean, just some household names, Amy Hazel, some big names in the spay casting industry that doing presentations but I'm really excited. It has a lot of hype and I'm working with Swing the Fly on that to bring it back and make it successful. So it's gonna be fun.
Katie
And when did you say that was?
Mia
It's May 9th and 10th.
Katie
Okay. I just want to make sure I'm recording so far out right now that I wanted to make sure I could get this episode out before it before that happens because I'm like into April and May right now so I'll try to scoot you forward if you're scheduled to be released after that so it doesn't release after the date.
Mia
Well actually I mean if you don't want to mention it then then then that's fine too. I'm actually I'm actually kind of nervous that you know like four or five hundred people are gonna show up and I'm not gonna have enough food to feed them.
Katie
Well I hope that your problem is you have too many people excited about it.
Mia
Right. I'm like, just bring snacks.
Katie
There you go. BYOF, bring your own food. Well, Mia, this is a ton of fun. Thank you so much for coming and doing this. I know I just kind of like cold reached out to you. So I just appreciate you, you know, taking a chance on this and coming to talk to me. I had a great time getting to know you.
Mia
No. Well, thank you. I really appreciate, you know, the invitation and getting to know you. And it's been really fun. And yeah, just maybe someday we can meet on the water.
Katie
That sounds great. I'll let you know if I'm ever up in your neck of the woods for sure.
Mia
I would love that. Please do.
Katie
Alright, thank you Mia.
Mia
Okay, good night.
Katie
Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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