Ep 149: Catching Up with Jen Ripple
Jen Ripple first joined me on the show way back in episode 19. I was thrilled to have her back on to catch up on what she has been up to. In this episode, we talk about her transition from DUN Magazine to DUN Outdoors, a more comprehensive women’s outdoor media space, as well as her new role working with Hardy and Greys and what it’s been like getting acquainted with more traditional and historied fly fishing equipment. We also talk about a few trips she has coming up for Guadalupe bass and trout in New Zealand.
Website: link
Instagram: @Jen_ripple
Instagram: @DUNMagazine
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed podcast. Your home for fly fish in the backcountry. This is episode 149, Catching Up with Jen Ripple. Well, last time you were on, I probably got a full background on you. So we don't need to go super deep. But in lieu of that, I'd love to hear what you've been up to since the last time we talked probably three or so years ago.
Jen
Yeah, actually, I think we talked like right before the pandemic broke is I think when we when we when we talked last if I remember correctly, and DUN was print DUN was, you know, a big digital platform at that time. And since that time, the pandemic did away with our print for the moment. And we are now morphing DUN into DUN outdoors. So basically, if it's done outdoors, It's DUN outdoors. So it's not like just women, everyday women talking about fly. It's everyday women, everyday women speaking about what their passion is that gets them outside. And so you can see that coming in 2025. We're super excited about that to broaden our horizons and broaden our reach and really get a lot more women excited about getting outdoors. So that's a big leap for us. But yeah, looking forward to that mostly and then when DUN went away from print I mean that left a lot of time for me and I'm very tight But I have to be busy all the time So it left a lot of time for me to do other things and so I was writing the outside magazine Fly-fishing woman's fires guide at that time and so I reached out to this PR company called gunpowder to see what they might have as far as clients that had gear that was Specific for women and this thing pop up that said we're hiring and I thought well I sit on the other side of the desk of that But that might be something fun to keep me busy in the meantime. So I reached out to the owner and talked to him and At that time they had just brought on Hardy and Grays as the fly lanes for pure fishing Their client pure fishing and didn't have anyone to really run that and so I said, yeah, I'd love to do that So I started just on a freelance contractor basis with them and then it was like the boiling frog. Before I knew it, I was like full-time at Gunpowder. And so now I, on top of everything else that I do with freelance and DUN and all of that, I run the PR teams for their fish marine clients. So. So
Katie
you've been up to a lot. I've got a lot of questions. I've been up to a lot. First of all, I wanted to ask you what about the pandemic killed print? Because I know that things went under during COVID generally, but a lot of those are really easy to see. People can't eat at restaurants, restaurants go under. Reading print magazines doesn't strike me as something that would necessarily be killed by COVID. So I'm curious, what was the mechanism behind that? Why did it go under?
Jen
Yeah, that's a great question. So for us, our magazine is a very big, very big, very heavy magazine. And you know, the way it was in the beginning of the pandemic, we didn't know how it was transferred. We didn't know anything about it. And I just felt like having to ship something out that was touched by so many hands and then shipped by so many people and touched by so many people was kind of putting our audience at risk. And I didn't want to do that. So that was the main thing behind it. I will say too, it was the cost. Everything during the pandemic went sky high. I've seen a lot of magazines that have gone out of business over the pandemic. And really what happened was, a lot of people may not understand, but when you shift to a big, or you have a big contract with your big box stores, say your Barnes and Nobles and all of those type, they tell you how many magazines they want. So you are at their liberty. Let's say they want 25,000 magazines. Well, you have to print just for them 25,000 magazines, which is a huge undertaking. Then you send them to them and then they put them on their shelf and then after a certain amount, they take them off and then you buy back all the ones that you've already paid for. So let's say they want 25, 20,000 don't sell, you have to buy back 20,000. So now you've really bought your magazines twice and paid all the shipping on that. And I think what happened, we got very fortunate that the next edition didn't ship to the big box stores right before the pandemic, but the timing of the pandemic was a lot of magazines had already paid for their magazines. They had shipped them to the big box stores, which were now closed and they sat. And so by the time that the big box stores opened up again, they didn't want those magazines. So they had to buy all of those back. So that really put a lot of magazines under. I mean, financially, it was just a huge toll for the magazine community, at least in the outdoor industry that I saw and the people that I know. Because, and you know, we always were digital first. I like to interact with my audience. I like to know who's looking at it, how many people are reading it, what they're reading, so that I can tailor the stories to fit what my consumers want. And so we did print as a favor, and I loved print. It was big, it was beautiful. The stories are just gorgeous. But it literally cost me $250,000 a year just to print, you know, and we're a small magazine, four times a year. You know, so, and then that doesn't even count the shipping. And so at that point, my managing editor said, "Hey, you know this is supposed to make money, right? Like you're, this is actually not, I know you have it as a labor of love, but how many more labors of love can you do before you have no retirement, before you're living in a shack because of your love for fly?" So we went back to just the digital format that we were at. And I think we're gonna reevaluate that as Den Outdoors comes into fruition now and see if maybe we do two magazines a year, start maybe small, maybe not, I don't know. We haven't gotten that far yet, but that's really what happened during the pandemic.
Katie
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I was only thinking of it from the perspective of, would this be a thing that people would want to do during the pandemic? And I'm like, if anything, I could see people being like, well, I've got a bunch of time to sit and read, but I didn't think about all the backend stuff that went into getting a magazine in people's hands. And also I had no idea about this buyback magazine situation.
Jen
It's crazy.
Katie
Like a trap.
Jen
It is completely and you know, it's something I mean, I don't have a magazine background so it's something that I like live and learn kind of and when I realize that that's what they're doing and They have a lot of people who don't really know anything about the outdoors who are purchasing magazines They just look at them and think oh, that's pretty so we'll just buy you know They don't do any a lot of these places don't do any kind of Surveying or any kind of research to know like this is selling. This is not selling This didn't sell last time. So let's Let's not buy as many they don't care They don't a lot of times they just aren't doing their job very well And they just keep ordering the same amount and we're just buying back or you know Not having enough some places didn't have enough magazines Some places had too many magazines and there's no checks or balances in that because there doesn't have to be there's no skin They have no skin in the game at all. It's all the publishers. Yeah that are taking the hit
Katie
Yeah, and I feel like I've heard of a decent number of magazines quitting their their print in the past I don't I haven't keeping track, but it feels in the last five years You know a lot of magazines have said we're going to digital only And now I can kind of see why that's the case obviously you already had an outdoor or I started an online presence So it probably wasn't as hard for you to become online because it's just you know going back to what you already started but having done the print did you feel like there was a you wanted to incorporate some of that content into the online? Like, was it as simple as just being like, we don't do that anymore? Or was there a bit of an actual transition to online only?
Jen
I think the transition for us was really easy because we were digital first. We literally went from being digital to print, which was harder for me because I didn't know anything about it. And then going back to digital was super easy because we already had that digital, you know, we already knew how to do that. Where I think that a lot of, you saw a lot of magazines fail was they didn't have a digital presence at all. And then trying to figure that out in real short order during a pandemic, when people weren't working, when there was a shortage of everything. I think that's where you saw a lot of those magazines trying to make it work on the digital platform. And then, yeah, unfortunately, we've seen a lot of change in the media landscape over the last five years. And it's just been sad, especially in the... I mean, you've seen it all over in lifestyle and everything, but just, you know, there's conglomerations buying up all the different magazines and then there's just a lot less magazines. You saw things like magazines that were big like Field and Stream go just to digital or like American Angler go out of business and we've seen that and it just continues on. So it's a scary time, but luckily for us, I do see niche magazines. I have still done it at strong presence, so we still feel it's worth it to put DUN out there.
Katie
Yeah, that kind of leads me to my next question is, have you heard from people what they prefer? Do people like the convenience of online or do they like the kind of nostalgic, like I get to hold something, I get to look at big pictures, I'm not staring at a screen and burning my eyes out? Like, is there a preference that people have?
Jen
Yeah, it's funny you ask that because I've seen, you know, we've had DUN for 12 years now and it's interesting to watch. So at the beginning, 12 years ago, everybody just wanted online. That wasn't what it was. No one had like a big digital presence. You know, your page turning magazines were just a new thing with like issue back then. And so we've seen, you know, it go from everybody wanting, you know, nobody really wanting to be online, nobody being online, print being king, to it's swinging all the way the other way where, you know, now it's all digital. And you know, I went to all digital with like no print. And now I see coming back and, and I look at, you know, I have kids who are in their 20s and 30s and I've watched over their whole existence when they were little everything was going to digital everything it was neat to have everything on digital I mean I remember my kids coming home with iPads and having to do everything on an iPad and that generation seems to have brought print and text tactile things back because they didn't have that growing up and so that's why I think that we've seen the insurgence of like you know your vinyl records and you know your game boys that are in your hands and print magazines and regular books instead of reading online. Whereas your older generation finally feels like, hey, I'm cool and I can do things on my iPad, is now looking at the digital format. So I think we're gonna see that pendulum swing from being all print to being all digital to being a hybrid in between.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's definitely pros and cons to both. So I could totally see it ending up in like a hybrid model. I mean, when I want information about something, I'm heading online because I'm gonna get the information fast. When I wanna like sit down and enjoy a cup of tea and just like enjoy the mood of the moment, then I'd rather read something in print. Like I don't want to have a computer in front of me. So I think there's a time and a place for both. And hopefully they find kind of a nice harmony where people can enjoy whichever one they want, but both are available.
Jen
Yeah, yes, I agree.
Katie
You mentioned that it was a big leap to go from DUN, just like DUN to DUN Outdoors. What was that big leap like? 'Cause if, you know, it's all online, I'm just curious what made it hard to jump from just fishing to the outdoors in general? I assume I'm coming at it from a very uninformed perspective of like, I don't know, you're just talking to different kinds of people, but walk me through what I'm missing there.
Jen
Yeah, you know, I started DUN because fly was my life and it's my passion and it's what I love to do. And I could easily bring DUN Outdoors into the upland bird hunting as well, because that's something that I, that's a space I also live in or gardening. I like to, you know, do cut flowers. So I have a giant garden that's cut flowers. I could talk about those things. But when you're talking about someone who likes to rock climb or someone who likes to ski or someone who likes to hike, those are not spaces that I live in at all. So for me, I don't know as, I didn't know as many people in those areas, in those arenas and finding the right person to run those different lanes was difficult only because I need someone who lives in the space so that when an article comes in, they can tell that it's legit. I want our audience and our authors to be legit people who live in this space, who eat, sleep, breathe their sport, whatever it might be, camping, hunting, fishing, whatever it is, you know. Even on the traditional fishing side, I know about traditional fishing because of my PR job, but I don't know conventional fishing in the way that I should, or that I'd be able to talk about the different baits or anything because I don't live in that world. To me, that was the most difficult. And then, we're starting out small, so we're not starting out with everything DUN outdoors to begin with. As we, I always feel like, okay, let's do a model that I can grow, something that can just live on and grow and breathe organically. And so I didn't want to just start with like every kind of outdoor activity at all as an outlet for DUN outdoors. I wanted to start with hunting, fishing, camping, RV lifestyle, the places where I knew people and I knew they were legitimate and I could easily get buy-in for them to want to contribute to this new endeavor we're doing.
Katie
And one thing that maybe you won't encounter until you really do start branching out to like the wider array of all outdoor things, how do you vet somebody as a contributor, having not like or not being an expert in those fields? I'm picturing, if someone wants to write about fishing, you can look at it and say, "This is good or this is trash. I know that this is, you have no idea what you're talking about. But if you have somebody who's trying to contribute to you for something that you don't do, rock climbing, let's say, I don't know if you rock climb, but if you read that, how do you suss out like, "Is this a good piece of content or does this person have no idea what they're talking about?" Because I don't have any idea what they're talking about either. Yeah.
Jen
So I'm kind of lucky in the model that we put together, which is telling the everyday story. So you don't have to be a professional to do it, but I don't want something that's AI generated either. There's a lot of that out there. And that's what I was afraid of. I can't figure out what's gonna be AI generated in rock climbing. I do not rock climb. I think, I don't rock climb and I don't run. I don't see any running. So those kinds of things, I just wouldn't know. So a couple of things. So I ask the people that are involved in those sports that I know, or maybe someone that I know that might know someone. I'm a very good networker. That's what I love to do. And so I find the legitimate people in those sports. I also have looked at, you know, who are the people that are following the people that write about this? 'Cause I bet they have a story. If you're actively following someone who is an outdoor woman who has hiked the Appalachian Trail and you followed along and you've commented on all of her stuff and your comments seem to be legit, I'm gonna reach out to you because I feel like you have a story to tell. And so, you know, part of the model of telling the everyday story is because I want everything that's DUN outdoors you know, inspire someone that is not an expert to go do it, like we did with DUN Magazine. But then also, you know, it does kind of give me a little bit of an out to be like, this is your story. You told this. As long as I know that the person themselves is legitimate, I'm good. And I usually don't just go to one source. I usually go to a couple sources to make sure that the people are legitimate. I'm not going to see that you have a million followers on Instagram and right away assume that you're legitimate in sport because you know what, most times you're not.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like there might be a difference between somebody who's sharing tips or facts about something versus this is my experience. Maybe they are super new to something, but they're like, "Hey, this is all the stuff I learned going out and failing over and over again," which would still be valuable for somebody even if the person speaking isn't an expert. They're just sharing how they got into it or whatever.
Jen
Yeah. And you know what? That's right there. What you said is totally it. I don't care if you're brand new to the sport, But don't act like you're an expert. That's what I don't want I think it's perfectly fine for you to have gone for the first time out and um caught your first tarpon on a fly or Maybe caught your first bluegill in a pond and tell that story But don't if this is your first time out and you've caught a bluegill on the fly Don't act like you're an expert at fly angling, right? So we want to know that this is something that someone who has never done it before can pick up a fly rod and be Successful, you know or have fun doing it You don't have to be an expert and I think a lot of times magazines miss that part They miss they miss the beginner the newbie who only reads, you know These fantastical stories of an expert fly angler who goes to new zealand and catches the most beautiful giant trout They've ever seen in their life, but what they don't tell you is that yeah, if you go there as a newbie It's probably going to be really hard for you to ever do that If you could even be successful at that and the better story would be hey, this is how I got my start I went to a bluegill pond with my daughter, and I'd never picked up a fly rod before, and she wanted to try it. And I put on a little terrestrial, and I cast out into the pond, and I caught a bluegill, and it got off, but I caught five more. And by the end of it, I felt like I could maybe get my fly out there 25 feet, but I had so much fun. That's going to inspire anybody to be like, "Hey, maybe this isn't as hard as I think it might be, and maybe I might want to try it." You know?
Katie
Yeah. Sometimes one of the most comforting things to hear is that somebody went through the same thing you did. It's really easy to think that I'm the only person this has ever happened to. This frustrating thing. I went out and got my fly stuck in a tree 20 times on the same day. And you're like, I'm just so horrible. And then you find out that this happens to everybody. And suddenly it's like, oh, I'm normal. I had a bad day. And sometimes that's what you need to hear. You're not usually reading about that or hearing about that, the struggles. You're hearing about all the highlights, all the, here's the biggest fish I caught, ignoring all the crap that went on, maybe the rod that was broken before that happened, or whatever. That's just pushed to the side. So it's nice to hear that and kind of be able to relate to it a little bit more.
Jen
Oh, a hundred percent. I think that's what, that's what really gets you, you know, knowing a lot of times and to, you know, like those beginner articles where people are just literally talking about their first experience, like maybe the flies that they tried, I mean, a lot of times we forget that we might have been visiting the fly shop, you know, for the last six months and now people know our name. And we're self-taught and no one has ever taught us the basics. So we don't know. And by the time you've been in a fly shop for six months, you're embarrassed to ask maybe the basic questions that no one ever taught you that people are talking about because it's assumed that you're supposed to know that. Those beginner stories and the fact that, "Yeah, guess what? I might be a professional fly angler, but I make bad casts all the time. I get my fly stuck all the time." Anyone who tells you that you make a perfect cast every single time is lying. That's what you don't hear.
Katie
I also think there's a fine line between inspiration and feeling out of reach. And this is a complaint I had about the fly fishing film tour, at least a couple of years ago. I haven't actually watched it in a bit, but it felt like there were a lot of films that were trying to really, you know, dazzle you, understandably. Like people going to Christmas Island and all these like basically exotic saltwater trips, which are fun to an extent, but I felt like it was creeping more and more toward like most of the show was these kinds of like exotic locations. And at some point, I was like, I'm not going on these. I might go on a handful of these in my lifetime that I'll really save up for, and it'll be the trip of my life. But for the most part, I'm catching trout around my house or trout in my state or somewhere in the US, somewhere I could go on a weekend and come back. And I feel like it's nice to have some of those really awesome stories that make you dream about what you might want to do someday. But there's also a really big place for, I feel like I could do this trip. I feel like I could save up, and next year, I go do this thing. And that feels like a much more attainable goal. And I lean a lot more toward that kind of content than I do the more exotic, once-in-a-lifetime things that maybe I could do, but I don't know. I really lean toward the more relatable stuff.
Jen
Yeah. I mean, I agree. And I think that the vast majority of people out there in the sport, no matter what your sport is, are the same, right? We want to be able to do what we love to do in our backyard and not have to just save up for a whole life savings and scrimp and save to go and spend $10,000 on a week trip. You know, those are great. And those are fantastic. But like you said, where are the real stories, the everyday stories, you know, the everyday because fly what it doesn't matter if it's fly or whatever sport you're in there, there's camaraderie that goes with that there's a community behind that there's something that has drawn you to that sport that really makes you want to stay in it. Who's telling those stories? You just don't see them.
Katie
Well, before we move on, I want to hear about some of your work with Hardy and Graze and your new gig. But before that, since we're talking about your own backyard, tell me what's going on around you right now, fishing-wise. I know you have maybe a bad shoulder at the moment, so I'm of fishing like around you these days?
Jen
Yeah, so currently I live in Tennessee, about an hour west of Nashville in a little teeny tiny town called Waverly. My property borders the Duck River, which is the most biodiverse river in the United States. It's the number three biodiverse river in the world. And that's aquatic species of all kinds. So it's an interesting place. I wouldn't say it's the trout fishing Mecca because it's not. You have to go to East Tennessee to get that. East Tennessee is also what I think of as the prettier side with the mountains and everything, but it's got its own charm here. There's lots of water. I would say it's predominantly bass water around me. I did just have shoulder and bicep repair because, you know, I tore my rotator cuff and my bicep doing something I never do, which is fishing traditionally, and I am not going to do that again. So I'm a true fly angler. So right now I'm down and out, but I had to have it replaced. I had to have it repaired by the end of November in order to go on one of those fantastical trips to New Zealand in April.
Katie
Oh no.
Jen
Yeah, so I'm down for the count for a while. I can't use my left arm at all. So I'm trying to make do. Fortunately, it is not my casting arm. It's my stripping arm. So eventually, I mean, they say that I'll be fine. I had a brilliant orthopedic surgeon who happens to be the chief of shoulder surgery at Vanderbilt, and he's also a fly angler. So we got along just fine. In fact, he wrote an article on overuse and shoulders from a fly angler's perspective, which I thought was quite interesting, which I'll have to post at some point because it really was interesting, coming from that perspective. But around here, when I'm not fishing, because fishing isn't spectacular around here, I do a lot of gardening. I started a big cut flower farm last year. So I've been doing that and I've been working with some habitat managers to bring my property, which is a little bit over 100 acres here on the dock, back to where it should have been, instead of like, at some point, they seeded pine trees from a helicopter, and so it's like wildlife can't get in here, and so we've done some select cutting and some food plots and that kind of stuff, just to bring back the native species and animals that used to be here before.
Katie
Oh, that sounds really fun. Are you doing it just as a habitat improvement, and you want to see wildlife, or are you planning to hunt it at all?
Jen
So I do not, I have eyelash syndrome, so I don't hunt anything with eyelashes.
Katie
[laughter] Okay.
Jen
No offense to anybody who does, I do have son-in-laws who do, and so we're, you know, I'm doing this property basically just to bring it back to what it should be. Okay. But my son-in-laws and my son do come out here and maybe harvest a deer once a year and some doves and, you know, that kind of thing, a turkey or two.
Katie
Well back to your journey here, I want to hear about your current work in PR because that's kind of how we got hooked back up. I'd love to hear what you've been up to.
Jen
Yeah, so interesting. During the pandemic, I was looking for something to do and DUN had not been in print anymore, kind of like we talked about. So I looked at this. I was looking for products so that I could write for some products for outside magazines, and contacted a company called Gunpowder, which is a PR agency that specializes in the outdoor industry. And a thing popped up on their screen asking if they were looking for a job, people to work for them. And so I reached out and then started. That's how it started me on the other side of the desk. So instead of sitting on the editor's writer side, now I'm on the PR side, kind of pitching products. And Hardy and Gray's are the two fly products that I was brought on to specifically talk about about and get into the hands of media. Hardy, obviously a very, very authentic brand that's been around a long time, an English brand that has a very, very long storied history. It has a Royal warrant from King Charles now. And so it's just, you know, everything that epitomizes the old history of our sport, you know, the beautiful reels, the beautiful rods, rods that come in, these sleeves that have little ribbons on them, and caps that go in the end of the blanks, and all this kind of stuff. I mean, we're talking very, very high-end fly gear. And then Greys, I kind of like to think about hardy and Greys as hardy is kind of like, and this is an exact kind of thing, but if hardy was Gap, then Greys would be Old Navy, right? of thing where it's like that I look at Hardy as like your grandfather's traditional brand, you know, or your very exclusive brand. And then Graze is kind of the edgy younger sister who's, you know, off doing her own thing. And it's got a few piercings and, you know, is kind of fish in the ditches and in the urban areas and the backyard ponds and all that fun stuff. So it's been fun to work with those two brands just because they're so different. And to be able to expand fly into a more diverse population, into a population where, you know, we aren't doing those trips to New Zealand and to Christmas Island and all of this. You're fishing those ditches. You're fishing the ditch for peacock bass behind the hospital in Miami. You know, you're fishing the pond, the local bass pond, you know, in your subdivision or on your golf course, that kind of thing. So those two brands have challenged me. And then, you know, from that point, like, at this point I'm the group PR director over the fish marine clients that Gunpowder has. So that's gone outside of just fishing into more of like your marine sports and that kind of stuff which has been fun. It's challenged me. I like a challenge.
Katie
So what is a what is a day like for you?
Jen
Sure so so my specific job in PR is the strategy. So let's just say that Hardy is coming out with a whole new line of fly gear and they want to focus in Montana for the true trout anglers and trout bums. And so I would put together the strategy that would maybe find out what media are in that area, what influencers are in that area, how do people talk about fly gear in that area, where are the trends going in fly, and then try to work through a year-long plan that really gets the most bang for the buck for the products that are coming out. And I truly believe that every product that's made has an audience. Maybe Graves isn't the audience for your elitist fly anglers. That's fine. It doesn't have to be. But it could be that audience for your younger people that are new to the sport who don't have $1,000 to spend on a rod, who don't have $750 to spend on a reel. But maybe they save up a little bit and they do have $400 to spend on a very good rod and and real that will do the same thing without the status, maybe. So finding the right audience has been fun and challenging. And then I get to work with the client. I get to work with the people who are the brand managers who really are the ones thinking through what new gear should come out. Why should this new gear come out? And it's just been fun. It's opened my horizons, my eyes to different horizons, and being able to see products and how they're made why they're made in a different light. So my day, I guess I didn't answer your question. My day is literally spent talking to a team. My team happens to be all remote, all day long telling the junior team members like, "Okay, we need a media list for this. "Find me the people that are into brook trout "in the Appalachian mountains "and find me the people who are talking about that "as influencers and as media and let's pitch them a really cool high mountain trout pitch that's gonna go with the new graze rod that's coming out. And so that's just one example, but I really kind of like I'm the puppet master saying, okay, let's pitch here, let's do this, let's do what's best for the client all day long.
Katie
I don't know if you would consider this marketing or if that's separate from marketing, but is it correct to assume that, so instead of designing like what goes out to people, you're kind of informing the people who would then decide like a campaign to put together, like how we're actually going to like, what photos we're gonna use and what text we're gonna use and how we're gonna convey that. You're kind of the one coming to them and saying, here's all the intel about like what you should use to make people interested in your product. Is that accurate?
Jen
That's accurate. And so I feel like I'm good at this job on PR because I know what I wanted to see pitched in the past from people, like what a good pitch looked like, what I needed from a PR company in order to put my story together. You know, especially in today's day and age, There are so many people out there, publishers, editors, who have a story not come in at the last second and need those assets right away, need a story right away. So if we've pitched them something and we've sent photos with it, or they can contact us and say, "Hey, listen, I need a picture of this rod right now," and we can get back to them, then guess what? Our product is gonna get mentioned and get focused in those magazines then. And that's really what PR is looking for, as opposed to me where I was like getting stories in and then deciding what's going to go in there.
Katie
Yeah, yeah. You said it's different looking from the other side of the desk. Like instead of a journalist, you are now on the kind of the brand side of things. What have you noticed the differences or which one do you prefer and why?
Jen
Oh, wow, they're both so different, right? I mean, I still dabble on the other side of the desk, so I'm constantly jumping from one side to the other. I think the hardest part for me is putting away my biases and talking about products, right? So I have to put out of my mind all the other products that I know, you know, when I have my PR hat on, then it's all about Hardy and Gray's. And when I write an article, and maybe it's a roundup, I have to really broaden my horizon then and take my bias out of it, right? I have to really be able to wear those different hats. And I think I do that well. And there are times when, you know, I mean, I feel like I've been in this a long time, so I can literally talk about a Hardy rod and how it compares to an Orvis rod or how it compares to a Sage or something like that. I like them both differently. I like being able to work with a bigger team and mentor the junior team members that I have on the PR side. Whereas DUN is much more solo act. It's much more in my own head, in my own space, a much quieter place. And in order to write, I still really, really love to write I still do write for a lot of different outlets. But I find myself having a little bit of trouble between writing a gear review and then coming back and writing a story now because I've spent so much time on the gear side that I really have to sit and think through what a true article looks like these days.
Katie
You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but is there any sort of walking on eggshells or kind of dancing around representing a company, but then also when you you write, you want to give people the most well-rounded answer. Like you said, you can be a little less biased, but is there any sort of qualm about saying, "Hey, actually the best rod for this is the Sage blah, blah, blah," when you work for Hardy and Greys?Do you have to dance around things at all?
Jen
I feel like that's a great question. I will answer it. Yes and no. Yes, because obviously my day job is to promote, right now, is to promote Hardy and Greys and all the different ear fishing brands that are out there. And so obviously, I want to give them kudos. Fortunately, for me, I really feel like, you know, in competitive markets that Hardy is a very, is a competitor and so is Graze in their own market. So when possible, I try to include them if they're appropriate. But there are a lot of times when they're just not appropriate for the article that I'm writing or I write an article and I don't include product at all. That's usually how I do it just because I want my voice to always matter. And I would never, just like DUN would never have written about a product if I didn't believe in it and know that it worked. I would just not say anything about it. The same thing is true. So I always want my voice to be authentic. And a lot of times that just means that I don't write about product at all. Sure.
Katie
And I could imagine a scenario in which, you know, Hardy Rod, for example, might not but it wouldn't be in an offensive way to them. You know, if somebody is like, my budget is $150, then, you know, I don't think that they would be offended by saying, oh, well, you know, maybe you should check these brands over here. Like that wouldn't be offensive. That's just how it is. You know, if your budget's this, you can go online and see how much everything costs and choose from there. But I could see that being a scenario where it's not, it's not like you're steering people away from the product you represent. It's just, you know, it might not be applicable to them at all, at which point, you know, you've got other suggestions that it's a win-win for everybody.
Jen
Yeah. And I will say that the people that I work with at Pure Fishing are legit people. And if it's a true review and it doesn't match up, then guess what? Then it just doesn't match up. And I think that there are a lot of brands that aren't like that. They're just looking for that earned coverage regardless. They just want people to talk just about them, but I don't find that. And so I do feel at liberty to be able to still have my voice. There are some... I had to stop doing the Outside Buyers Guide because I was representing a brand and I get that. I mean, I can see, you know, it is definitely walking on eggshells knowing where that line is and trying to still be authentic, I think has been a learning experience for me. But I think it's good to keep your, you know, you got to keep your voice legit, especially in today's day and age where there's just so many out there that are not legitimate in space.
Katie
Well, I think people would appreciate that because sure, if I went to a buyer's guide and saw, even if you thought this, whatever Hardy rod is, is the best ride for this recommendation, it's going to be hard for a reader to see that and think, "Can I trust this?" You know?
Jen
Right.
Katie
So I think that's great. I think it's, you know, as long as everything is transparent, then people appreciate hearing the information they want to hear without feeling like they are being steered in a way that might not be truly what you think or who you are. So I think that transparency is great.
Jen
Yeah, I think so too. I think it's the only way to do it.
Katie
You mentioned that you've had to learn the ins and outs of traditional gear. Not conventional fishing gear, but old-school fly fishing gear. Tell me more about that.
Jen
Yeah. For me, the Hardy brand and your trout... I'm not a trout angler. I learned to fish on bass and I love saltwater. I like to fish for trout, but I wouldn't say I'm an expert trout angler just because I don't live in a place where there's trout and I mean I love saltwater so I don't spend as much time there. I appreciate the technicality of trout and I love the technicality of it but I wouldn't say that that's where it is. But you know when you look at the old rods, the old reels, the historic brands like a Hardy where there's just so much history involved and so much has evolved over the years and they're still making gear that is made in the old style of you know your your click paw reels and that kind of stuff. You just need to know that you need to like absorb everything you can because You're gonna have to talk about it and it's been fun to see like those heritage brands that really have Just span the test of time and are able now to you know Still have a presence a very big presence in a world that's forever changing as quickly as possible, right? There's always a you know You have fly rods come out all the time and, "Oh, I changed one thing on it and now it's a new fly rod." Or, "I changed the color and now that's a new fly rod." Right? And so being able to understand the past and the evolution of brands has really helped be able to weed out, "Is this really, truly a change or is it just a color add -on?" Right?
Katie
Right. I talked to Howard this morning and I asked him this question. I'm going to ask it to you because you're coming from two different... know, he's on the rod building side and you're on the PR side. I asked him like what trends are happening right now, you know, what, or if he had to predict kind of what the, what the next big thing is. I gave him the example of like, at one point it was fast action rods, like everything was fast action rods. And he said that now it's kind of like moving toward like Euro nymphing and things like that. And some things are flashing the pan and some things hang around a little bit longer, but you never really know which one's going to be which. From your perspective as somebody who is, it sounds like talking to the public and finding out what are they excited about right now. You might even have a better grasp on it than he does. Do you see anything on the horizon as being the next big thing in fly fishing?
Jen
Yeah. I was going to say Euronymping. I would say that's it. I think that it's kind of like we saw it just be regular fly and then we saw tenkara come in and now we're seeing... And then we saw two-handed and we have two-handed in spey and all of that. And now, I see a lot of Euronymphing-specific rods coming out, very technique-specific too. So if you like those really teeny tiny trout streams, then there is a rod with an action that fits just that. Or if you like to fish for marlin, there is a rod that is specific just for that. So a lot of very technique-specific rods coming out. But I also would say, as I look at the media landscape and I look at who's talking about flying now, when "Men In The Line" became the number one on Netflix that, you know, a little bit ago, we saw an insurgence in non-endemics, you know, people that had never been in the sport before getting into fly, kind of like it was when "A River Runs Through It" came through and there was that push. So we saw that again. And I would say that now we're seeing a lot more, it's not maybe a technique of fly, but it's fly in general, where people are starting to talk about fly fishing as like a health benefit, like getting outside, like it's something you can do regardless of how good of a health you are in, right? You can cast a fly rod. It's not about strength or anything like that. And people are starting to talk about it more as like a mental wellbeing, a physical wellbeing. And that's getting mainstream attention, which is I think really great for our sport. It's just bringing a whole influx of people into the sport. And that's never wrong and that's never bad.
Katie
Yeah, more of a cultural shift an actual gear and technique shift.
Jen
Yes. Yep, for sure.
Katie
Last thing I wanted to cover, which is a couple of things in a basket, are what you have coming up because you listed a couple events that you're going to attend and obviously your New Zealand trip that you already mentioned that you've got to get rested up for. I just want to hear what you have coming up and what you're excited about.
Jen
In the next two months, I will be at the Virginia Wine and Fly Fishing Festival. That's a festival that has grown over the years and they do a really good job of bringing a lot of women. They have a women's night on a Thursday and Friday night, which is really fun. A lot of women's specific classes, which I'm always excited about. And the last time I spoke there was a number of years ago, and I taught a beginner's class and it was just like kind of like dip your toe into fly, ask any questions you want. And I usually when I ask them like, Oh, how many of you have already tried fly and like, you know, at least half of the hands go up. And this time not one person had ever even tried fly before They were all brand new all these women were brand new and I just loved that so I'm looking forward to going there It's a smaller show But I think one that really packs a lot of punch and then I'll be at the Guadalupe River trout unlimited trout fest Which is in Texas that'll be in February I've I spoke there on you know many many years ago and and I'm they've asked me to come back and I'm excited about that because It's just you know that trout unlimited chapter I mean Guadalupe River is the southernmost trout stream in the United States It's a miracle that they even can keep trout there. But the Guadalupe River Trout Unlimited does a really good job of maintaining that river and they just are some of the most generous people you'll ever meet. They throw a great party and so I'm looking forward to being down there with some of my friends I haven't seen in a long time. So if any of your listeners are in Virginia or in Texas, you can come out to one of those two and know that you're going to be well taken care of and have a great time.
Katie
Are you going to fish for Guadalupe bass at all down there?
Jen
Yes, I'm going to try. I tried the last time I was down there and I was not successful. So yes, I'm going to try again.
Katie
Maybe you don't know the answer, but why weren't you successful? Was it, uh, you know, did you just kind of not know what you were doing down there or not know where to go or whether?
Jen
Yeah, we just didn't see him. I mean, we were successful fishing. We floated down the river. We just didn't, didn't put one in the boat. So maybe this year we'll be, we'll be different.
Katie
You said you're a bass angler.
Jen
Yeah, exactly. I'm going to hope that my doctor clears me to fish a little bit by then. If not, I'll have to be a passenger in the boat.
Katie
Then how about New Zealand? What's your plan for that?
Jen
Yeah, so the New Zealand trip is in April. I am co-hosting it with April Vokey and Linda Leary from Fishyware. The three of us just kind of wanted to fish together and then we were like, "Hey, let's host a woman's trip." I posted it on my Facebook and it was sold out within like eight hours. So I was like, I guess maybe we have to do this again. I've never been to New Zealand. I've been to Argentina. That's about as remote as I, like as far away as I've been. I mean, everybody thinks that I fish all these exotic locations, but no, I just really work and talk about fishing and fish locally and get to do some great things, but I don't travel as much as I probably should. But yeah, so I'm excited to go down there. It's with some women who are just gonna be really, really fun. And so we'll see if it's successful. Maybe we'll open it up and do another one.
Katie
How do you host a trip in a place you haven't been to before? How do you figure out what you need to know to be able to show everyone a good time?
Jen
Yeah, so fortunately, we're going with 11 Experience, and they're really, really good at hosting trips. A lot of people have taken trips with them. And for me, I'm very, very fortunate in that April has been there a number of times, so I'm leaning on her.
Katie
So you’ll almost get to be one of the clients a little bit. You'll get to learn along with everybody else how to fish New Zealand.
Jen
I know, I know. It's gonna be an experience, especially since it's trout and we already talked about trout, right?
Katie
I assume that's rainbow and browns are what you're going for?
Jen
Yeah.
Katie
Cool, and when did you say this was?
Jen
It's in April, middle April.
Katie
So is that fall, late fall for them?
Jen
Yeah, it's late fall for them. So it'll be a little bit cold, but hopefully the fishing will be great down there. So we'll see.
Katie
Hopefully it'll be some pictures out there, yeah. Well, just to wrap up, direct people where they can find you. I know things are changing with DUN going to DUN Outdoors, so I'll let you take the lead here and just share anything you'd like to share with people to get word out about whatever you want.
Jen
Yeah, so it's still going to be filtered through DUN Magazine. You could go to DUNOutdoors.com when it's up, but you can still go to DUN Magazine right now. You can reach me at, well, DUN Magazine, DUNMagazine.com. And you can reach me, if you have a story to pitch, you can pitch me at Jen, J-E-N, @DUNMagazine.com.
Katie
Perfect. Well, Jen, thank you again for coming back for this. It was great to catch up with you. And I'd love to see some pictures after your trip to New Zealand. I'm sure you're gonna get into some big trout despite not being a trout angler.
Jen
Yes, I hope so. I hope so. Well, thanks, Katie. It's been super fun to talk to you.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you wanna find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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