Ep 146: Fishing the San Juan, with James Garrettson
James Garrettson owns About Trout, an outfitter specializing in the San Juan River of northern New Mexico. In this episode, we talk about the San Juan as a whole, the different sections of river, seasonality, flies, species present, and the pros and cons of Euro nymphing.
Website: link
Instagram: @about.trout
Youtube: link
-
Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 146 with James Garrettson on fishing the San Juan. Well, I start every episode by learning about my guests and finding out how they got into the fishing world. So tell me how you got into fly fishing in the first place.
James
Yeah, absolutely, Katie. You know, when I, you know, I tried to do the competitive breakdance battle rap scene and that didn't work out, so I had to find something else to do. But that's not true at all. I grew up outside of Washington, DC in northern Virginia, and I just always loved to fish. And my neighbor, Richard Altman, was from Pennsylvania and just noticed that I liked to fish and came over and gave me some casting lessons. And then I was gifted a copy of the Curtis Creek Manifesto, and that Christmas I got an L.L. Bean starter kit with Dave Whitlock's handbook. I was walking distance from a creek, so I would just walk down there and catch panfish and bass. Then, once I got a driver's license, we have Shenandoah National Park right there, so I'd drive into the park during high school. Previously, I got a worker's permit and I was hired at the Tyson's Corner Orvis retail store, so I couldn't even drive. My mom would drop me off. So I'd restock fly bins. And the guys from that shop would give me rides and take me to places and take me fishing, which hugely, hugely appreciate. So shout out Jason McMahon and Nick Earler and some of the other guys over there, JT Richardson. So they really helped mold me and were good influences. And then after, I just always stayed with fly fishing. I went to the University of Montana, go Grizz, for one year. I'm sure you could figure out why. And then ended up back in Virginia, finishing school up at James Madison University, which is kind of in the heart of the fly fishing scene there in Virginia. So just stuck with it, and then always kind of worked in and out of fly shops. And I guess after a series of poor life decisions, I just became a fishing guide and then an outfitter.
Katie
How did you find yourself in New Mexico after all that?
James
Yeah, so I was working at Avid Angler in Seattle for Ryan Smith. It's a great shop if you're ever in the Lake Forest Park area and Seattle's worth going in there. Their fly tying selection is unbelievable. But just kind of some family stuff happened and my mom ended up moving to New Mexico. I just had gotten married at the time. So, you know, we didn't really, my wife and I, we kind of plans were loose. So we moved to move down and be closer to family and kind of got right back into the fishing scene down here. And it was crazy just reading about the San Juan as a kid and now full-time San Juan guide. But New Mexico has a lot of really cool stuff-- small creeks, kind of medium-sized rivers, and of course, the San Juan. So there's a lot more here, I think, than people think. But that's what initially brought me out here to the land of enchantment.
Katie
Did you initially start guiding for somebody else down there, Or did you just open up an outfitter and wing it from there once you got there?
James
Yeah, so I guided for a company for a little bit. It was a great experience and I learned a ton. The town that I was in, I don't think it was a good fit for where I wanted to raise a family more or less. I started the outfitter about five years ago. It's been busy ever since. That was a great opportunity. And then pivoting that into starting about trout was great. I fell in love with the San Juan. And it's kind of a cliche, but it's kind of the forever river. And where I was guiding initially was three hours away from here. So now being 25 minutes away, it's a lot easier to guide here full time.
Katie
Is-- are 100% of your trips on the San Juan, Or do you kind of branch out and do other kinds of tributaries or lakes? I don't know what all is around that area. I've only been down there once. But do you branch out beyond the San Juan?
James
Yeah, we actually do. So I mean, I would say the bulk of our business, it's myself. We have other guys, Kyle McCallum, Alex Rodriguez, Norm McTyma, who's unbelievable. He was out there on the water today. He does a lot of our Euro stuff, former national champion. So pretty awesome to be affiliated with him. He's an incredible person. But we do-- probably 95% of our trips are on the Juan. We are a Colorado Outfitter, Outfitter number 3300. And so I do guide private water on the Animas, some private water in the Conejos. And then we have some BLM permits outside of Durango-Silverton area. So we get enough clients that want to do-- catch native cuts, Colorado River cuts up there. And then we have a couple little brookie creeks permit cover, so just to mix it up, kind of give somebody a mixed Southwest sampler, if you will.
Katie
How does that work, working in two different states? Because I've always kind of assumed that each state has some sort of outfit or license that you need. So how does that work going across state borders like that?
James
Yeah, so New Mexico is not-- I mean, they just redid some tax stuff, so that's always fun. I know one of my buddies that does the same thing out here, he ended up splitting his business into two companies. And New Mexico doesn't have a true outfit. The way that the San Juan works is it's a lot of 1099 independent contractors. It's not like Colorado where you have the outfitter license and then you put your guides under the outfitter license and then the outfitter has, I mean, it can work that way. I don't guide on federal land in New Mexico, or like Colorado, like with the Forest Service and all that. So the sand lawn can kind of become like a free for all, but out there, About Trout holds that BLM permit through the Gunnison Forest Service. I'm sorry, for the Gunnison BLM District. And then we put our guides under that, our insurance. So it's just making sure that the Colorado trips are, you know, everyone gets their money. Uncle Sam.
Katie
Isn't that what it's always about?
James
Yeah, I mean, up there too, it's just different processes. So like when I, you know, I own multiple cards on the San Juan. So when guides go out guiding under those cards, you know, I have to fill out a trip ticket every day for Navajo Lake State Park. And then for Colorado, it's, you know, depending on what entity you're on, you fill out your daily report when they're out. And then at the end of the year, you submit, you know, all the trips you did, where you were at, and then they take, you know, It depends what it is, but sometimes it's like 3% gross of total trips or a flat rate. So yeah, I wish I paid more attention in school.
Katie
You mentioned before we got on the call that the San Juan has a bit of a bad rap. And I told you not to tell me more because I wanted to ask you on the air because I don't know what this bad rap you're talking about is. So why does the San Juan have a bad rap and what's it for?
James
Yeah, I think a lot of people like to poo poo tailwaters. The San Juan is pretty notorious for tiny flies and that definitely can be part of the equation, 26s. I mean, my vice is right here. I mean, here, look, here's a pack of 24s from tying from a couple days ago. It's popular. It's easy to get to. It's very easy to wade when the flows are right. There's tons of 80 year old, not tons, but there's, you can fish it if you're not the strongest waiter. And so it can get busy and it can get crowded, but there's a great book, it's called the Wisdom of the Guides. And it was written, I think in like 1998 and probably one of the, probably like the godfather of the San Juan, Johnny Gomez in that book was like the San Juan's as crowded as you want to make it. And that's still true in 2024. So if you kind of know how most people-- there's kind of popular times. I would say from 8 AM to 3 PM every day is kind of the peak user hours on the river. So if you kind of fish outside of those windows or get a little bit more creative, you can find that solitude. And then you also don't have to fish little flies. It's a really great streamer river. I think people will be surprised at the size of the streamers that we fish out there. With that many fish in close proximity, they like to nip and pluck at each other and throw in that bigger stuff. You can elicit those kind of reactionary bites. I fish a lot of trash, like the mop flies and the San Juan worm that has a place here. You can really make the surf or whatever you want to make it. It's more than just bobber fishing double 24s, double 26s. You can really have the ability to make it what you want. The dry fly fishing is also fabulous.
Katie
Yeah, when I was there I remember, we did use small flies, but I wouldn't call it too difficult. I mean, we caught plenty of fish and we showed up kind of with no knowledge of what we were doing. So, to show up to a river and pick a fly out of my box, and within the first couple of flies we were starting to get on fish. So I don't recall it being a river that was like punishing, you know, as long as you're willing to stick with it and kind of play around with things. The fish were willing to eat, you just kind of had to try a few things out and see what they wanted. I've been to some places where it's like everything in the box is wrong somehow and fish don't want it. So I remember it being challenging, but challenging in the appropriate amount, the appropriate amount where you feel like, "Cool, I figured it out. I had to work for it a little bit, but I wasn't just getting slammed by the fish the whole day."
James
No, absolutely, Katie. It's very user-friendly in that way. And I think for new anglers coming to the San Juan, basically in the state park you have two sections. the quality water, it's about the first four miles below the dam. And then you have like the bait water, or as we call it, like the quantity water, cause they just, there's a ton of wild Brown trout in there and they stock like the snot out of it with catchable size trout. So if you do have a tougher day in the quality water, you can go down from what they would call crusher hole down is where that section starts. Um, but, but the big thing with those, those fish up by the dam, you know, a lot the biomass that they're eating, midges, baetis, small mayflies. And depth and weight is probably 70% of the equation there. If you can dial in your depth and weight, it's almost better to fish the wrong fly in the right way than there is no real silver bullet. So if you're coming out here for the first time, to those listening, before you change your flies, mess around a little bit with your depth and your weight and see if that does the trick for you.
Katie
And tell me about the seasonality of it. And I think we might get a little bit into winter specifically, since that's where we are right now. But what can somebody expect in each of the four seasons? And which one do you think is the best, if someone had a trip that they wanted to plan?
James
No, absolutely. So yeah, we can start-- yeah, we're here. Winter is coming. It's here. It's already been-- we've had a pretty wet winter already. Usually, the weather doesn't turn until after Thanksgiving. Today, it was in the 50s here in Navajo Dam. But my favorite-- I will start-- my favorite month is probably November. The peak time on the San Juan is going to be from June to October is when you see the bulk of the pressure on the river. But it's a true 12-month fishery. So people always ask, when should I come? And I'm like, I'll answer it when you shouldn't come. Really, the only thing you got to worry about on the San Juan would be the wind, and you're still going to catch fish. But kind of April, till about middle of April, till about Memorial Day, you risk the chance of getting hit with some heavy wind. But you also can have some fabulous weather and some fabulous fishing. But in the winter-- so we have something called turnover here. So the lake that feeds, that the tailwater generates from, when it gets cold enough and it inverts the thermocline, so all that warm water goes to the bottom and it turns the lake over. and the river kind of gets dirty. And right now it's dirty 'cause they're running it out of a different gauge. There's two gates. They have the auxiliary gate, the four by four, and then the main gate. But usually around the beginning, it just depends, you know, how cold it gets, but kind of end of November, December is when it'll turn over. But the winter time, it's gonna be larger flies, bigger leeches, bigger larva patterns, big pig stickers. And we're fishing pretty heavy egg patterns. You lower third of the water column, heavier tippet. November is great because it's right after that October rush. So it's not busy at all. I was out Saturday, and I think there was six boats on the water. I'm out tomorrow. My buddies-- some of my buddies were out there today. We had a wade trip out there today. I think there was six boats. So a big change of pace from that 15 to 20 boats that you kind of see during the peak season. But winter is a lot of nymphing. They'll still eat streamers as well. And depending if you get some baetis and midge activity, you can still have some decent dry fly days. January is the slowest, also the coldest in terms of traffic on the river. But I mean, I had a couple of days last January I was guiding in 12 degrees. So if you don't like the cold, you might wanna skip that one. As we get into February, it warms up. And you can just, again, you can see some of those 40, 50 degree days out there in February. We're at 5,500 feet. It's a high desert over here. You know, February is kind of more of the same once you're in that colder stuff. And then in the spring, you know, March, April, you'll start to see more baetis. The fish can kind of get buggier. And that trend will continue. So as the water -- when the lake turns back over, sometimes that can happen as early, you know, in May, sometimes it's June, sometimes July. It just all depends. but when it's clear and the fish are really buggy, that's when you're gonna start to see a lot of those 24s, 26s. Those patterns are gonna work year round, things like chocolate foam wings. The dry fly fishing really starts to get good, June, July. Especially earlier in the season, they'll come up and eat bigger stuff, like big chubbies, which is crazy. And then early in the mornings too, you can get them to come up and eat a mouse. So just be mindful that I think the state park, it opens, it's like half an hour before sunrise and it closes half an hour after sunset. And then the summer, same thing. I mean, that's what makes the river special is every day you do have the opportunity to fish dry flies, nymph and streamer fish and in what capacity you're gonna get, it can change. But in our personal guiding or the way that we like to guide here, at least with our crew, it's kind of a mix. We're either throwing kind of bigger, trashier, heavier stuff. And when I mean trash, like I said, anything that's not a bug. So worm patterns, egg patterns, moth flies, leeches. And then as it warms up throughout the day, specifically, you know, kind of end of March on through October, those fish will get buggier. So you'll start to see them suspend when those midges are coming off, depending on what phase of the midge life cycle they're eating or the mayfly life cycle. So having a lot of those smaller mayfly patterns, 18s through 24s, and then smaller midge patterns, you know, 18 to 26, will really help.
Katie
How specific do you need to be in your pattern choice? Like, you know, could somebody show up with kind of a generic mayfly pattern, but have it be the right size and do well? Or do they get picky enough that you might want to go to the local shop and really pick out a handful of the ones that do well there?
James
Yeah, I mean, I think I guide with the same dozen flies all year and it's just constantly kind of changing depth and weight. The thing with this river, so probably the most popular fly on the river besides a red larva would be a chocolate foam wing. If you ask 10 guides to see a chocolate foam wing, you're going to see 10 different flies because everyone has their little twist or their variation and they all work. But I would say there's definitely been times when even dropping it from a 24 to a 26, it just seems some of these tailwater trout dropping that size down or maybe throwing something a little more muted instead of something with some flash in it can make the difference. But if you had a general assortment of your midges and mayflies, you'll do fine out here. Again, going back to the depth and the weight, those fish will really get locked in. Sometimes, like especially during like a big midge hatch, they might be intercepting pupa coming up through the water column. So you'll see them in the middle of the water column. Sometimes they're eating, you know, the pupa. And then as those midges are in the film, dropping that shock, you know, they're eating six inches to a foot under the surface. And if you're, you know, if you're below them, it's gonna be a little slower for you. So the depth and weight is paramount. And then with fly selection, size, profile, color is kind of the checklist I go through, at least when I'm guiding. And you don't have to get too crazy. I mean, if you had to pick one color for your images, chocolate, you know, if you had to, olives are great too, same thing with your mayflies, chocolates, the same stuff everywhere, chocolates, grays, olives. And again, I can't stress that one enough is just kind of fishing with your eyes first and seeing where those fish are feeding.
Katie
And what specific hatches do you guys get in the summer? Like what specific mayflies are you trying to imitate?
James
Yeah, so blue-winged olives, baetis is the big one here. And then our midges. The other crazy thing that we have happen is it's the ant fall. And I can't tell you when that is. It's the first big rain that we have in the summer. Sometimes it's as early as June. Sometimes it's as late as August, but we have these flying ants here and when there's enough rain where it puddles up the day after that when it needs to be get really hot afterwards and get humid and we have an ant fall and they're as big as your pinky and they're dropping all over the river and those fish just Lose their mind for that and it's it's pretty special if you can hit it, right? It's it's hard that it happens once a year sometimes twice a year or two after that, you can still throw some pretty big dry flies and have those fish come up for them. Then in the summer too, you can mix it up and throw terrestrials. Ants and beetles, our fish really like to eat those too, so you don't have to just throw your little parachute Adams, iobos, mole flies, cripple patterns. You'd be surprised at how big of dry flies you could feed those fish.
Katie
How do you set your fly apart from the other masses on the water? I've asked this to a lot of people before, just in general, how do you stand out? But actually the one time that comes to mind for me when this happened, I was on the San Juan, so that's why I'm bringing it up to you too. I remember there being some sort of eddy behind a rock that was swirling and there were obviously fish in there, but there must have been a billion little black somethings, probably midges, on the surface. And I remember thinking, I'm not going to be able to get a fish to come up from my fly because there's just too many real ones there that I won't be able to stand out. So I probably sized up or sized down. But what's your approach if you do get one of those really heavy hatches there to make your fly stand out from the crowd?
James
That's a great, great question. I think it's, I want to give credit to, I think it's Mike Lawson from Idaho that coined the term "unmatch the hatch." So when those fish, specifically, there's some sections of the river that I love to throw dry flies at. If they're eating 20 size, 26 single midges or whatever, I'll throw a big ant, specifically a quick sight ant, and just try to shock the system that way. That usually can get them going that way. If they're not eating little 24PAs or sprout midges or parachute Adams, unmatching the hatch or even throwing a size 12 chubby Chernobyl at them to try to show them something different. But unmatching the hatch absolutely has a place on this river.
Katie
Yeah. Some people have mentioned sizing down, which I think works well when there are a lot of flies on the water, but they're kind of flowing past. And so the fish are seeing one after the other after the other, and they see something that stands out a little bit. But that struck me as not working super well when there's a huge mat of flies on the water, Because then if you go down, yours just gets even more lost in the noise. And that's when I feel like what you're describing works really well, where you throw something that's way bigger than what's out there. Because they're already primed to rise. They're obviously going to eat on the surface when that's going on. So they're looking up, and they're wanting to come up. But they need something that really shocks them, like you said. And that's when I think using one of those bigger flies works better, when there's that mat on the water that you just can't really even break through. down there is not going to help you because you're just going to get lost in the noise.
James
Absolutely. Then the other thing too is sometimes when there's like baetis and midges coming off simultaneously, the easy way to distinguish that is the mayflies, they look like little sailboats or little pirate ships on the water. Sometimes you'll watch those fish just pick out the mayflies and ignore the midges. Throw in a mayfly pattern, again, like a parachute Adams. I know I'm so basic, but it works. And with the midges, especially, you'll see them cluster. So there's a fly, it's called like a dead chicken. It's like a size 10 Griffith's gnat, it's gigantic. So sometimes if you're watching those fish, you'll notice, are they eating midge singles? Or sometimes they're just smashing clusters. So throw in like a gigantic, you know, a dead chicken or like a size 14 black stimulator or something that's gonna look like a big old midge cluster. They'll come up and smash that thing.
Katie
Now I want to ask again, because we got a little bit cut off earlier, tell me again about the quality water versus the quantity water and how the San Juan's kind of set up. You know, it comes out of the dam and then, you know, what, where does the river go from there and, you know, what are the different sections of it that people might find if they come?
James
Yeah, absolutely. So stick, you know, it's a Colorado River tributary, the San Juan is. So in the state park, you have the quality water, which is all catch and release, barbless hooks, you can only fish two flies. And then you have the kind of Mad Max quantity water, the bait water from crusher hole down. So you can access both of those in the state park. So the quality water is gonna be bigger fish, generally pickier fish, and that's the kind of the world famous section. So the first mile below the dam, you can't put drift boats in. So Texas Hole is the first big parking lot below the dam. That's where the boat ramp is. So from there down, you'll see drift boats. So if you don't wanna see drift boats, fishing above Texas Hole is great. There's the braids, cable hole, sand hole, everything's named, but the wade section's excellent up there. And then from Texas Hole down to about Crusher Hole, there's some great way to access and there's some braids you can get into in the quality waters there. And then some deeper, really deep sections of river that would be very hard pressed to wade. It's hard to navigate that section. And then it transitions into, from Crusher Hole from all the way down is what they call the Baywater. Like I said, we call it the Quantity-water. So that's heavily stocked with rainbow trout and there's a really, really healthy population of wild brown trout in there. And really nice fish too, down there as well. So kind of by Cottonwood Campground, there's a parking lot called Pump House. There's a really amazing riffle there that's easy to get to. So what you're gonna find down there is smaller fish in general, and they're more willing. So just throw in like eggs to see eggs, bigger pheasant tails, whatever your favorite nymph combination is, will work down there. They're less picky. There's some really good dry fly fishing down there too, some nice flats. But so you should check out both, or for those listening, if you're newer to the San Juan, kind of there's different flavors. And once you get below Crusher Hole, the personality of the river changes are really from Simone and the quality water down. It's a faster gradient. It's more of a classic river. It's more obvious seams, more obvious structure, more of that classic, you know, riffle run structure compared to the first few miles, which it's very slow and broad and more pond-esque, if you will.
Katie
It's funny, you mentioned the names of these things. And like I said, I've only been there once. But Texas Hole rings a bell. And when you said the braided section, that's-- I feel like I must know what you're talking about. Because that's what I remember fishing, is just a bunch of these braided little channels that were all kind of meandering through little willow clusters, or I assume that's what they were. And it was really fun to just wade through all that. And you walk through the brush, and you come out to a section of water. Then you keep walking, you hit more water. It feels like you're fishing four or five different rivers all at once, but they're all connected. So I assume that's what you're talking about when you say the braided section.
James
Absolutely, yeah. And it's funny, here in the desert of New Mexico, I think all the guides' brains, myself included, have all melted. 'cause the naming of these things aren't very original, but yeah, the Braids, it's called that because it's where the river braids. I think Texas Hole was named because you used to be able to camp there back in the day and it was a dirt parking lot and we're close to Texas. So that's how that got its name. We have a place called Three Island Run because it's a run with three islands. (laughs) Not the most ingenious names, but they get the job done. But yeah, waiting above Texas Hole, and you'll find that anywhere that you fish, but Texas Hole gets the most pressure because it's the closest to a parking lot. If you're willing to walk five, 10, 15 minutes, you can really lose the crowd, if you will. And fishing in the middle of the week and things like that, but you can always find solitude on the San Juan, and what you described, that's what makes fishing all those little channels to the willows is really special. And you can really find that solitude. And that's where I try to send people if they ask where to go wade around. It's really awesome up there.
Katie
And what species are all in the river?
James
So we have brown trout and rainbow trout. So the brown trout are all naturally reproducing. The state of New Mexico doesn't stock brown trout. But they do, the rainbows are planted in there. So they plant a lot of really small fish, like sometimes two to four to six inches, and then they grow big in the quality water. There is reproduction on the rainbow trout, but it's such a small number, it's not really worth mentioning. I don't know the exact data. My buddy caught a fish, a rainbow today, that was dropping eggs, so that's not one of the triploids. But and then also the state stocks triploid females. So if you do catch a kyped rainbow, I mean, maybe life does find-- you know, life finds a way. But I mean, I can count on one hand the amount of rainbows I've landed with a kype, or had clients land with a kype. So browns and rainbows. And then there are carp as well. So I mean, I had a guy from Arizona. And I was like, you want to catch a giant carp? And we took a little detour and did that. So you will catch some carp. It's kind of in the middle of the river. some sloughs off the river if you want to really mix it up. Brown trout and rainbow trout, primarily rainbows, but there's a very healthy population of brown trout on that river.
Katie
What do you use to target the carp?
James
For the carp, stuff like... Lance Egan's got a pattern called a headstand. That's a really good one. They'll eat squirmy worms, mop flies crawled on the bottom, jig leeches. Sometimes you'd catch them as bycatch. I've had people, I've had them eat size 24 foam wings. You're like, "Oh wow, this is a huge trout." You're like, "Oh, carp." It's a fun surprise.
Katie
Are they fairly challenging to catch? Carp are pretty notorious for being a challenging fish to catch. Do they live up to that reputation there or are they a bit easier than expected?
James
I just don't really guide for them that much because a lot of our client base is just coming from places that don't have a lot of trout. So when I suggest it, it doesn't usually go over well. I do like to carp fish. I do find carp to be challenging and accurate casts and like a redfish, really trying to feed that fish, sight fishing them. It's a lot of fun. But I definitely understand coming from somewhere where you could probably catch a carp down the street, very rarely are you able to float a river like the San Juan. So pretty blessed in that way that I get to fish this river as much as I do on my day off.
Katie
Speaking of guiding, you had some things you want to talk about today and that kind of leads nicely into setting expectations and what makes a good trip. Because that's something that I feel like a lot of people, if they haven't gone on guided trips before, there's an art to being a guide, but there's also an art to being a client. So talk about that a little bit and what do you mean by setting expectations and making a good trip versus a bad trip?
James
Yeah, absolutely. I think as much as I always like to think of guiding as a team sport. So when I have anglers in the boat, I like to think of us all in the same team and how can we win together. I joke, it's like I'm an NBA coach. I can get you to the finals, but you don't have to watch me shoot free throws. I just sit back and critique. I think before the trip, having that line of communication with the guide no matter where you are and what you want to get out of the trip, and that's not smashing 15, 25 inch trout, something, what do they call them, smart goals, so specific, measurable, attainable, whatever. I probably failed that class in business school, which is why I'm a fishing guide. But whether it's an education, is there something specific you wanna work on? Or hey, I just wanna have a good time and no pressure. But just letting those things be known and knowing that I would say the vast majority of fishing guides are on your team, they wanna see you succeed. And then just being open with the objectives of the day and stick with that plan because like I'll get I'll get people that, you know, for example, it's like, Hey, I only want to throw dry flies. And I, I love that. And I'm happy to do that. Just know that if we go down that path, I'm going to have to run the day a little bit differently to cater to that. So if I don't know that you only want to fish dry flies, I I'll probably go into maybe, you know, default settings. Um, Hey, I really want a streamer fish. That's going to definitely change. maybe the time that I start, certain sections of the river, bringing certain things for that day. So if there's something that you like, no matter where you are, just being upfront with the guide about it so they can plan accordingly and make sure to give you the best day possible in the water.
Katie
Do you ever get clients who have unrealistic expectations? Like they want something that you actually cannot offer? And I'll give an example. I mean, obviously if they wanna fish dry flies, you can fish dry flies. But when I used to guide, I worked at a place that just, the fish were of a certain size and a certain species basically. And we had somebody call who said, "I want to catch a trophy fish of my lifetime." And we were just like, "That's not going to happen here. I don't know how to sugarcoat it, but that's not going to happen." We had to kind of try to spin it in a way that was like, "How about, have you experienced this before? Could this be a unique experience for you?" But do you ever have anybody who requests something like that that you have to kind to be up front and say, "We can't fulfill that," but try to convince them of something that might be just as good for them?
James
No, absolutely. I think that's just the human condition and setting expectations as a guide, too. My stupid joke is, "I guarantee that you'll see a fish. It might not be on the end of your line, but you'll see one." All we can do as guides is, as you know, Katie, we can try our best. I think it's important that the clients don't see you fail in terms of giving up on them or just working hard and trying to focus on what we can control as guides. Because I can tell you right now, if I could control the weather, I'd be the richest person on earth.
Katie
Right.
James
You know? So I just had a scenario like that. We took a group down to Louisiana and the weather changed the day before and it affected the fishing. We had a great group of guys on that trip and they understood that that's what happens. The San Juan has a reputation for being a big fish fishery, but still it's not a guarantee. If someone really wants to hog hunt, if you will, throwing a streamer is a good way to do that. You might not find a fish doing it that way. you might only get four streamer eats depending on the day. And if you miss those strip sets or the fish eats it in a weird way, that's it. So I got to say, our client base is-- we've been very, very blessed with that. Where we've really had some amazing people over the last five years. But yeah, when people-- you kind of got to-- I do get that. How many fish are we going to catch? Well, I don't know. going to depend on your ability to set a hook and fighting a fish and have you fished 6x tippet, have you fished this way? And exactly what you said, I think mentally preparing them and trying to paint it as shades of gray rather than black and white has really, really helped kind of assuage that stuff.
Katie
For sure. You also had down the current state of fishing and I'll let you kind of take this where you want to because I feel like you could interpret that so many different ways. But what do you view as the current state of fishing? Are we in a good spot? Are we getting better? Is there room for improvement? What are your thoughts there?
James
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I'll say that. As a kid, I'm 34 years old. YouTube wasn't a thing. I had to read books. We didn't have Instagram. I think there's a lot of positives. In the future of fly fishing, I think it's become more accessible for anyone that wants to do it, which is huge. With the rise of internet reviews, you know, kind of that, fly shops I don't think are as intimidating as they once were. You know, it's definitely more welcoming, the sport. I also think though, yeah, with the social media stuff, and look, I have a YouTube channel, I'm active on Instagram, you got to play the game, right? I mean, before you had social media, you had guys like Dick Taller, writing books, you had Mary Orvis writing books, you have Joan Wolf and a long line of people that you do have to promote for the business side of things. I think there's a tasteful way to do it. But yeah, when you look on Instagram, I think there is this kind of, what is it? Comparisons the thief of joy, right? Or it's like someone sees fly fishing in Colorado and they see some huge fish and then they call where you're working like, "Well, I want to fish like that." It's like, well, that fish came from a ranch where they feed a dog food. And guess what? I guide that stuff too. And people want to do it. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you're up front with your-- not like, oh, yeah, it's crazy. There's all these wild 25-inch fish in a mile of river. So I think that's been an interesting thing is kind of the rise of the new school, if you will, with social media. And kind of, I think, this warped perception. Like on the San Juan, you'll see if you go online, and we've landed them with 30-inch fish, and they're in the river. But when you think of the hundreds of thousands of hours of all the guides, all the clients in those guides' boats, all the DIY anglers, it really starts to become less common than you would think. So I think there's so many awesome resources out there now. but just realizing that Instagram isn't reality. And also just learning with this influx of new anglers, just trying to try to find the joy in figuring out some things by yourself, that the journey is the destination, and putting those pieces of the puzzle together. I think that's something really magical about fly fishing that in the instant gratification world, we're losing a little bit of.
Katie
Do you think Instagram and YouTube and all the other platforms that people are using have made people start to focus on the wrong things? I know wrong here is kind of subjective. It's whatever you consider wrong. But like you said, people are-- they see somebody pose a 30-inch fish, and now they're kind of like, well, I've never caught that. I guess all the fish I've caught don't count, or whatever negative feelings they're having about that. But it's really hard to capture things other than just the size of a fish in a single post. It's probably easier on YouTube with the ability to have a longer form video. But there's a lot of aspects of fishing that people get joy from. But if all that's being captured is, I caught this fish of this length and that's what people are seeing, do you think people who are consuming too much of that content are perhaps, I guess, having more of a negative view of fishing because their experience is just comparing to that fish size kind of losing the rest of the experience that goes along with it?
James
I think that can be a problem. And then I also think-- I mean, I'm going to sound like a hypocrite here, but a lot of what I do is indicator guiding 10, 15 feet away from the boat. Like there's different types of anglers, right? Like there's some people that really don't want to get better and they just want to have a great time, And there's nothing wrong with that. I think about that like I like to quail hunt. I suck at it. It's because I don't practice. And it is what it is. But I think there's all these ideas of this, that, and the third. I think pure fly fishing, casting, I think we're seeing a decline of that overall. I've just noticed that in the boat. I'll hand someone a really-- I remember when I worked in fly shops, I remember the older guys in the shop would be like, oh, fast action rods have ruined fly fishing. And it's like, OK, boomer. And now I'm 34, I'm saying the same thing. And I think going back to learning how to cast and the basics and finding the soul there, not to get on my soapbox. But the same people that want to say a squirmy worm isn't a fly like indicator nymph and it's like is that you know really fly fishing I mean I'm a big you know if it makes you happy like I do it all I love every aspect of the sport I'm not here to cast judgment like whatever but I just think if you want to have that conversation you know or you want to criticize others for the way they fish like look in the mirror first and think like are you really making fly fish are you really teaching like the fundamentals you're really teaching the casting are you really teaching the aerial men's are you teaching stack men's and you know X, Y, and Z and the techniques, you know, maybe before you before you have those opinions. But also, you know, with fly-fishing it seems at least it's more popular than ever and you're just gonna get people from different walks of life and that's the fun thing about guiding is, you know, some days I get you got to be the therapist, some days you have to be the comedian, some days you're the teacher, some days you're the cheerleader, some days, you know, you're the scientist breaking everything down and just And that's what keeps it fun and fresh for me. Whether it's someone's first time holding a fly rod and you're teaching them how to mend and just toss out a 10-foot cast, or somebody that wants to take it to the next level and learn how to double haul or learn how to do a reach cast. That's really, I think, what has prevented me from burning out, if you will.
Katie
Yeah, it's a good point to think about what do you consider right now to be the current state of what makes it fly fishing, how that at one point was new school. Like it's something that you think it's old school now, was new school at some point. And you know, so there's some old person probably grumbling about it, now you're grumbling about something new there. And it does come down to a personal preference for sure. But I know, for me personally, I get a lot more joy out of the act of what I'm doing, and where I'm doing it, and who I'm doing it with, than whether I'm catching all the fish in the river. I've said many times that I think it'd be fun to learn to EuroNymph. I've never done it, but a lot of people justify it by saying that you can pull every fish out of the hole. You can really scrape it clean. I just don't really care to pull every fish out of the hole or scrape it clean. If I can go in there with a dry fly and catch half the fish in the hole and then move on to the next hole, I would rather do that than pull out every last six-inch fish. But some people want to go out there and catch every last six-inch fish, and that's what brings them joy. It's really hard to put boundaries on that, but I think some people especially with the rise of seeing a whole bunch of other content online, are kind of outsourcing what they want to other people. They don't necessarily know what they want. They see what's popular there and they compare themselves to that instead of thinking what would actually make them happy.
James
No, absolutely. You know, it's so funny because I EuroNymph a lot. And like I said, we're super lucky to have Norm Mektaima as a part of the crew. And what's funny is it just seems that Euro-nymphing, it's become like a, there's like two ways I think you can approach it. And I think there's a group of anglers that see it as this silver bullet, and I just wanna hammer every single fish in the river. And then there's another group of anglers that realize like the power of the system in terms of like drag-free drift, the ability to really dial in that system to make the flies fish the way that you want to fish them. And like, that's, I mean, look, I've been both. Like I, you know, I, like I, it is what it is, you know, I'm a human, but I think like, yeah, you get this like mental high when you like dial in the weights just right. And you're picking up those small, you can just detect those super subtle strikes. And then, you know, as I've gotten older, kind of like what you were saying, the process, I really enjoy just carving through a run and really fishing the nooks and crannies and looking at the features and the depth changes and knowing that I can touch that you know with a rig. It's like the chess game and yeah it's super fun. But yeah it's again, Euro-nymphing is you know it's gotten adopted really quickly because you you don't have to cast, the system is so good, that you don't have to mend, right? So it's taken a lot of those tougher concepts away. And even you can, I always say you can fish with a lot more slop on a Euro setup 'cause the rig is gonna do a lot of it for you. Versus a, you know, if you're indicator nymphing, you have to mend it, you know, try to land your flies upstream in line or not. It depends on what you're trying to execute. Being on top of your mends, line management, you know, and you don't really have a lot of those issues. You know, you still gotta manage line and things with Euro, but you know, that 5X tippet, sick whatever you're nymphing with, it's gonna cut right through the column. Your flies are gonna get into the strike zone right away. And it takes that slack out, so you're fishing tight. And it's easier to sometimes detect those strikes. So yeah, I think that's why it's exploded in popularity, just because it does make some stuff easier. But I would say I think it's easy to learn, it's really hard to wrap your head around some of those concepts in terms of like, you know, I'm a nerd with it, you know, like there's a 27% surface differential between 6X and 5X tippet and how does that, you know, your leader formulas and the way that it sags and you can just keep splitting it to the nth degree. And, but I don't think a lot of people think that way. I think it's like throw heavy fly, keep rod tip high and hook fish. And that's cool too, whatever floats your boat.
Katie
Yeah, and like I said, I don't necessarily have anything against urinating. I think for me, it's just like I prefer a different kind of fishing just for the experience of it. But I could see the value in learning to do it, A, to see where all the fish are. And I don't mean like I want to know where they all are right now, but sometimes I catch fish in places I really don't expect to. And I'm like, whoa, how many fish are out there that I am passing over? because I just assumed they weren't in that section of water. And I think with your own nymphing, it would probably open my eyes a lot to where all the fish can hang out. Because like you said, you can pick through all those pockets really precisely. And also, like you said, dialing in your gear, even if I want to spend most of my time indicator nymphing or dry fly fishing, seeing how different tippets respond to the water, being able to visualize that and feel it right in front of you, I think would be helpful even for other styles of fishing, just to get to know your gear in a more dialed way.
James
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, when I'm indicator nymphing, I have a good idea of where my flies are, but I don't really know. And with gyro, I know. And so that's the fun part, especially if you have-- which I think we all do-- a hard time conceptualizing, thinking about the water in three dimensions and all that fun stuff. I think it just makes it more user-friendly, but yeah, maybe I'll make some stickers, like return back to casting, but come back to the soul of fly fishing. But I think I've noticed that in the last couple of years is I'd love to see a return to a casting culture and that's never gonna happen, so.
Katie
(laughs) need to try out Euro-nymphing, I think I would benefit from having experienced it and having it in my back pocket. I just don't think I'd ever let it take my life over. And it seems like some people, once they start EuroNymphing and really catching that number of fish, they don't want to go back. That's all they want to do. And I think I'd use it more as a-- either I'm in the mood to do it this day, or nothing else is working, and I want to see where the problem lies. What's going wrong with all these other setups that maybe I could suss it out by EuroNymphing, pulling a couple of fish out that way and then and seeing, you know, using it to tweak other things. I could see it being a fun thing to incorporate on occasion, but I don't think I could ever let it take take me over because I think I would just honestly, I think I'd start to get bored with just never casting. I think I think I need that in my life. So maybe maybe I'll give it a try and and try to incorporate it a little bit more.
James
Yeah, you don't want to make it your whole personality. But yeah, you know, and what's funny too, is like a lot of the competition anglers, when they have those competitions, you know, they're lake fishing, like all of those anglers are insane casters. I mean, they're hucking 90 foot bombs on 10 foot six weights and stripping like, you know, I think that's one thing people don't like, oh, like, you know, some of these bigger names, like, all they do is Euronymph. It's like, no, they cast, you know, they fish and they're all incredible casters, you're not going to compete at a high level, you know, just tight lining. I mean, they're, they're throwing, know, double fly rigs on those 10 foot 6 weights. And it's amazing. I need to get it. I think Devin Olsen just put a book out about lock style and lake fishing. And recently, I've gotten more into lake fishing, which is a lot of fun for trout, especially the casting component.
Katie
Are these large lakes or reservoirs that you're fishing in? When I think of lakes, I'm talking alpine lakes, because that's what we've got here. But I assume where you are, it's more like reservoir style. Is that the case?
James
Yeah, like putting the drift boat in the water and then putting a drogue, cramping it to the gunwale so your back is to the wind and it blows you across the lake. And then you're casting downwind and stripping it back. And the high Alpine Lake, too, the last few years, hiking into the back country has been kind of a mental break. take a couple days off during the peak of the season and recharge out of cell service. This last year, I got in a car accident, so I didn't have my Tacoma, so I couldn't go off-road and get way back in there. We hiked 10 miles into these lakes, and one of them was okay, and then the other one was dead. Again, that's the magic of the high alpine is burning that boot leather and finding your own Shangri-La.
Katie
Right.
James
So yeah, it sounds like you do a lot of it. And I mean, I think that's probably-- I think-- here's my hot take. I think hiking into an alpine lake is the purest form of fly fishing.
Katie
Interesting. I mean, I'm not going to disagree with you. I think there'd be a lot of people who do disagree with you. But if I could choose how to spend one day of my life that's what I would choose as well. So I'll cast a vote for that statement for sure.
James
Please do, because it's the adventure. It's the unknown. It's dry fly fishing. Or you can nymph and streamer fish too, but it's casting and it's solitude. It's really, for those listening, if you've never taken the time to hike back into a lake, take that opportunity. You will not regret it.
Katie
Well, James, is there anything that we didn't cover about the San Juan or urine nymphing or anything else that you just want to share with folks before we wrap up?
James
I guess I'll probably close it with the San Juan is a 12-month-a-year fishery. If you've never fished it, the magic there is you can make it whatever you want. And probably, I guess, final thought would just be remember why you fish. It's supposed to be fun. And don't let anybody snuff that flame. If you're having fun while fly fishing, you're definitely doing it the right way.
Katie
Awesome. Where can people find you if they want to book a trip or just check out what you've got online? Where can people find your content or your website?
James
Absolutely. You can find us at abouttrout.com. We have a YouTube channel, Shocker About Trout, and then our Instagram, which is about.trout. I think there was a girl named Paige Trout. I tried to buy her handle, but I had to put the dot in there. She never responded. You can find us on Instagram, YouTube, and abouttrout.com, and we would love to see you here in the Southwest.
Katie
Awesome. Well, James, thank you so much for coming on. I know I just kind of cold reached out to you, so I appreciate you taking a chance on a stranger, and I had a great time learning more about that part of the country.
James
Well, I really appreciate it, Katie, and I appreciate the opportunity, and it's been awesome getting to chat and getting to know you, and if you're ever down in this part of the world, look us up.
Katie
All right. Sounds good.
James
Awesome.
Katie
Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
Note:
These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.
While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.
Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.