Ep 137: Backpacking, Fishing with Dogs, and the Utah Cutt Slam, with Zig Peacock
Zig Peacock is the President of the Weber Basin Anglers chapter of Trout Unlimited and a (as of the release date of this episode) four-time completer of the Utah Cutt Slam. In this episode, we talk about his responsibilities as President of his Trout Unlimited chapter, what it’s like fishing with his two crazy Labs, and his experiences completing multiple Utah Cutt Slams over the years.
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Katie
You’re listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 137 with Zig Peacock on backpacking, fishing with dogs, and the Utah Cutt Slam. I always start every episode by getting a background on how my guests got introduced to the outdoors and introduced to fly fishing. So walk me through how you got introduced to the fly fishing world.
Zig
So outdoors wise, my dad was a big outdoorsman, but he emigrated from England when he was 25. So he was always a big fly fisherman. My earliest memory of fishing is going out on a little Avon U-boat at one of the local reservoirs and I couldn't have been, I don't know, six, seven, something like that. And we were using spin casting gear and I had like a Rapala or something like that on and I got a hit. And the only thing I knew to that point was Bassmasters. So you know, I yanked up on that thing and broke off everything. I remember my dad being really mad. And I don't remember much fishing with him after that point. I remember going up into the Uinta mountains and backpacking and stuff like that. But then when I hit college, I did a lot of mountain biking, a lot of hiking. Even during high school, we did a lot of river running and he did some fly fishing then. But once I hit college, it was kind of a way for me to reconnect with my father and get out with him. So I started fly fishing with him, got my first fly rod back then in college. We used to go out with an old naval master chief that was, this was the fishiest guy I've ever known. I mean, I remember specifically, can still see it to this day in my mind's eye. We're on the Provo River, which, you know, a lot of people know, if they know Utah, they know the Green River and know the Provo River. So we're on the Provo River back when you could actually not deal with a bunch of guides and everything. And I was talking with him about setups and he was showing me the Provo Bounce Rig basically at that time. And I remember him, I had just finished releasing the fish and he had just finished releasing the fish and I walked up to him to talk to him for a few minutes. And he kind of tucks his rod up under his arm and grabs his line and just kind of lazily casts it out in the water and pulls out a cigarette to light it up. I watch his line and rod go. It's like, all you did was just toss your line out there and you got a fish on. So, you know, that started in high school. It started, or not high school, in college, it started that love for going out there and fly fishing. You know, I got to, I would drive. I was going to the University of Utah at the time. So I drive a half hour, 45 minutes up to the Provo and hit it. Didn't do a lot more exploring besides some of the other local rivers. I'd hit the Provo, the Ogden, the Weber. As I graduated from college, I got into a company where there were several other people that were fly fishermen and fly fisher women. And we'd start going out like Fridays we'd blow out of work at three o'clock and we'd run up to the Logan or something like that and go fly fishing. So that really started my love for fly fishing. And then I kind of took about a 10 to 12 year hiatus. I had children at the time and my boys were into soccer and I kind of got sucked into the whole of competitive soccer and really didn't have much time for anything else because I was coaching and you know we had games and it's non-stop. Even in the winter we were doing indoor and stuff like that. So I got sucked into that and probably five years ago again, my dad had passed away about seven years ago. I went from having two fly rods to having nine. May have bought one or two or three more since then. And, you know, just started picking it up again. When my dad passed away, I got the fly rods, I got a pontoon boat, a float tube, all sorts of fly tying gear and stuff. I just got into it again and the bug bit hard. Now I go out probably 50 to 60 days out of a year.
Katie
Did you know during the hiatus that you were going to pick it back up again one day or did it seem like a chapter was closing your life and you know you were moving on to something else and then you know unexpectedly the death of your father kind of you know reinvigorated something in you like did you see it coming that you're gonna get back into it?
Zig
I would say at the time when I was deep into it no but as I got to the last couple years I only had one team anymore and I was just an assistant coach I was on a head coach anymore. I mean, when I dove in deep to soccer, I dove in deep. I was on the state board of directors. I was a club president. I was, you know, doing all sorts of stuff. But when, by the time I got to that point, I just had one team. I was an assistant coach, and that was it. So my time commitment wasn't heavy anymore. It was my youngest son, who's now, he's 20 and in the army. So, you know, gone. And so I had more time again. And, you know, I got looking at all the gear I had. I mean, not only did he fly fish, he, he did bait casting, spinning, you know, deep sea fishing, anything he could do. He loved fishing. I mean, during the time that I had soccer, we would still go out on his Ranger bass boat with him and, take the kids out and go fishing. It just wasn't fly fishing. So I'd say at the time deep into it, no. Afterwards as I started to get time again, you know, I started looking at the rods and everything and I'm just like, "Yeah, I gotta get back to that." You know? Plus, you know, once COVID hit, it's like grab the rod, hit the mountains. You know, I can get out and not have have to worry about dealing with the masks or anything else.
Katie
So I assume after you end your hiatus and soccer's kind of died down, I assume when you got affiliated with your local TU chapter, if I read your bio correctly, that you're the president of your local chapter. And I was going to say Weber, but I heard you say Weber earlier. So I'm guessing
Zig
it's actually pronounced Weber. Yep, it's Weber. So, the funny thing is, the way I got involved with the local TU chapter is I got one of those many mailings to join TU.
Katie
I'm very familiar.
Zig
And it had the, at the time, the Hardy Ultralight with the reel. And I'm like, "Okay, it's tax deductible and I can get another rod and reel out of it." So all right, I'll do a lifetime membership.
Katie
I was going to say, that's the lifetime, I assume, not just
Zig
Yeah, yeah, it's the lifetime. So I'm like, OK, I'll do a membership. And I'll get a rod and a reel out of it, right?
Katie
Yeah.
Zig
So I did that. And the chapter, because of COVID and everything, it wasn't super active before. And then afterwards, they were trying to recover from COVID and still struggling. The current president, he was in his second term. with our bylaws you can only do two terms and he was starting to get things going again and getting meetings but we were struggling to get people out and that and he was close to the end and he's just like hey I can't be president anymore someone needs to be president and I was up hiking in the Uinta mountains going to a small alpine lake at about 10,000 foot level with one of chapter members and we just got talking about it and he was really good friends with the current president and I've gotten to know him fairly well. And we're talking about it and I'm like, "I've been a soccer club president. I've been on a state board of directors. I understand 501(c)s because, c3s, because that's what I had to do for soccer." I'm like, "Do you have any interest in what he was talking about, about the positions that are open?" "Yeah, but I wouldn't want to be president." I'm like, "What about vice president?" He's like, "Yeah, I'd probably do that." I'm like, "Okay, go ahead and tell him I'll run for president, you run for vice president." And then he actually ran for, or the former president ran for the treasurer spot. So we filled those three spots. It was pretty much, you know, we had the meeting and about five, six members showed up at that time, and we had the vote, and we were in. I'm not good at saying no, let's put it that way.
Katie
So tell me what's involved in being a TU chapter president, because I remember my older TU chapter went through a new presidency when I was a member. I remember going through the vote and everything, but I didn't have any concept, and I still don't, of what actually is required of a president? How much are you taking on by taking on that role? Just walk me through what your responsibilities are as a president.
Zig
I don't know if I'm a great person to give you that, but from what I've been in nine months, our chapter actually takes a summer hiatus. So we go up through about June and then we kind of don't do chapter meetings until about September again because we figure everybody's out doing adventures and stuff. Although this year in June we did go to, there's a local private lodge that has like six smaller lakes and we were able to do a still water event there. So that was pretty cool. We actually have one of our members as a guide there. So that worked out really well. But you know, a lot of it has been organizing what we're doing for the chapter events. You know, stuff from having guest speakers. There's a gentleman by the name of Ryan Mock that's local that does a lot of carp fly fishing. And so he had a great presentation at the Wasatch Fly Fishing and Fly Tying Expo a couple years ago. And so I talked with him and had him come out. We've had our Utah Cutthroat Slam program and assistant program administrator and several of the sorry several of the the region biologists come out and talk about the Utah Cutthroat Slam. So we've we've get meetings together one of the things we haven't done yet but we're looking to get is a banquet which is big-time fundraiser for us so there's also fundraising events one of the things that was really cool this year that I participated in is Trout in the Classroom program. So in that program we're going to elementary schools, ideally around the fourth grade, though we do have some high schools as well. And we're working with them to help them get funds and set up a tank where they're raising rainbow trout. They get to see from eggs all the way up through, you know, about two, three inches. And the kids get to raise them, they get to feed them, and then we take them out to one of the local community ponds, and they get to release them. So, you know, we're taking little teeny Dixie cups and scooping up one fish at a time and telling them to keep their hand over them so it wasn't falling out, and they get to go put it into the lake, and their parents came out, and everybody's taking pictures and stuff. So you know it's a great community event. And then I'm also on the as a president of one of the chapters I'm on the state council. So there's four council meetings a year plus we kind of help the west the Wasatch fly tying and fly fishing expo is actually a TU event that's part of our fundraiser for going back into the chapters and we we help man the doors there for our chapter. We we do all the quote unquote security the guys that are at the door making sure you got your stamp or your wristband you know and stuff like that. So and then of course you know the the stuff like just making sure we've got the finances and you know just kind of administrative stuff like that the finances the the 501c3 that we're getting in our annual report and stuff like that so working with the team to do that. The last thing is we work with our local state TU national staff so the project managers so we've got two project managers for Weaver Basin. The Weaver Basin goes all the way from the Uinta Mountains which if you're not familiar with the Uinta Mountains it is the largest east West Mountain Range in the lower 48. So it's a big mountain range. We've got like a thousand lakes up there, 600 or so of which hold fish. And one of those primary drainages comes into the Weber River. So it starts all the way up in the mountains, about two, three hours away from here, and it flows all the way down into the Grace Halt Lake. So that whole drainage, including the Ogden River, and that is kind of our chapter is based around that. And we've got the two project managers. So, we help them out. We do, we help out with providing volunteers as we can to do some of the projects that they're working on, like I know this summer we're probably going to be installing, if things work out right, we'll be installing about 300 BDAs, Beaver Dam Analogues. So just to help repair the riparian corridors for some of the smaller creeks around that from years of cattle grazing and stuff it's just kind of hammered it, it's gotten a high flow, it's really digging down the you know and there's not really a meadow anymore or anything like that. So we do restoration work with them. Another project that we'll be doing is with the Salmon Fly Project. The Ogden River itself will be doing some sampling to see you know where the invertebrates are on the river and kind of help keep track of that. So yeah you know they're kind of a canary in a cold bine you know with the salmon flies. Once the salmon flies start to disappear you know something's going wrong with with the system. So we'll be doing some sampling work with them later in the fall as well.
Katie
And I want to hear a little bit more about how you build the BDAs. Like what what kind of physical labor goes into you know creating a fake beaver dam?
Zig
So the beaver dam analogs, I haven't done it myself yet so I'm going off of what I've seen with talking with our project managers and that but they'll have a contracting crew that comes out with kind of the hydraulic rams and they'll ram in like two-inch rods into the into the river and then we'll be going along with clippers cutting foliage you know branches and stuff like that from the local area and weaving them between those rods and so it creates in essence a man-made beaver dam which if you haven't studied much about beavers, they're really actually really good for a river system because what happens is the water as it backs up it goes into the soil and then as it gets hot and the flow comes down it comes back out of the soil but it keeps it cooler. So you would think with a big pool that it would actually warm up the water but it actually helps keep it cooler because it's staying in the soil in that cooler temp and then coming back into the river.
Katie
Yeah, those are super cool. I've run into a couple people who have worked on similar projects or come across areas where they have installed some of these. And that was, you know, it's a very interesting concept, but I've never talked to somebody in depth who's, you know, gotten to do it. So I hope it goes well, and I hope the outcome is what you're going for.
Zig
Yeah, our project managers have done them already on several of the smaller creeks up here and they've had really good success. I mean just even within a year or two you can see a big change in both the flora and fauna around the river and you can see that it brings up the the base level of the river. So all that silt that's getting washed down because it has a higher gradient and faster flow is now being captured and building up that base of the river. In fact I know know there's some rivers down in southern Utah that they did it when there was a big fire issue. And they built it they put in the BDA, and I think it took less than a year or something like that. And they had to put in another BDA because it already exceeded the top of the BDA because it captured that much silt.
Katie
Interesting. And I wonder, do you know how long they're meant to last? Or is there a timeline of how long they last? Because I've seen beaver dams that have been there, obviously, for years. I've seen other ones that get built and are blown out later that season, so they're kind of all over the board when they're natural.
Zig
I do not know how long they're supposed to last. I do know one of our local creeks, so East Canyon is one of the canyons that's here, and the East Canyon Creek River, it's small. It had some BDAs on it. I didn't know what they were at the time when I was fishing about three years ago in that area. But I'm like, oh, these are kind of interesting. But I know that with the really heavy snow pack that we had last year, not this last winter, but the winter before, that they got blown out. And so there was discussions about having to fix those and stuff. So I think it really just depends on the flows and how much water we got coming down at once.
Katie
Just like the natural ones, I guess.
Zig
Just like the natural ones.
Katie
It’s a crap shoot. Well, you mentioned-- this is a good transition, because you did mention the cut slam in your work with TU. So I know that's kind of one of the things that we-- or like got us connected, I guess, in the first place is that you've-- you're working on your fourth one, I think? Is that right?
Zig
I'm working on my fourth one. I'm halfway done on my fourth one. Hopefully after next week I'll be three-quarters of the way done.
Katie
Okay, so I'm sure people are familiar with the idea of cut slams, because I actually just had an episode release we're recording now in July just came out with the Wyoming cut slam. And I think all of these slams are a fairly similar concept. Catch some designated list of species. Sometimes in a time limit, I think usually not. But just in case the Utah one is any different than the Wyoming one, walk me through what the stipulations are. What do you have to do, in what time frame do you have to do it, how regulated are the waterways that you have to catch the different species from, all that. of give me an overview on the Utah Cut Slam.
Zig
OK. So the Utah Cutt Slam, first of all, I think it was the first one that is actually a partnership between TU and the local DWR. So the gentleman that helped start it was really involved with both. And so it got going as a partnership. And it still is quite a big partnership between both of us. The Utah Cutt Slam, different than what the Wyoming Cutt Slam is, the Utah Cutt Slam actually has a fee. It's only $20 though, and of that fee, 19 of that goes to conservation. It goes to a lot of these projects like the BDAs and stuff like that.
Katie
I wonder who gets that last dollar.
Zig
That last dollar goes to the angler. you get a really nice certificate out of it and a challenge coin. The coins are actually really cool. So the first year, well the first few years, they were kind of a generic coin with the logo on the one side and a cutthroat on the other side. Starting two-ish years ago, I think it was, they started putting the actual cutthroat species for the Utah Cutthroat Slam on them. So for the Utah Cutthroat Slam, you register, pay your $20, and then it's a lifetime thing if you need to take a lifetime to get it. Obviously, some of us get addicted and are doing it a lot more than once in a lifetime. You have to catch all four of the native cutthroat species that are in Utah in their native waters. So the big one is the Utah State Fish now, which is the Bonneville cutthroat. That one you can catch in quite a few areas along the Wasatch Front. In fact, you can catch it almost to St. George, Utah, which is far bottom end of Utah, up to kind of the Ogden area of Utah. So there's a lot of area you can catch the Bonneville. The second one would be the Colorado Cutthroat. And its native drainages are any of those drainages that go into the Colorado River. So the Deschenes, the Green, several of those rivers eventually flow into the Colorado River. So the Colorado Cutthroat is in those areas. Then you have the Bear River Cutthroat. Some people don't recognize the Bear River is distinct and different from the Bonneville cutthroat. But for the slam, we do. The Bear River is all those tributaries that flow into the Bear River itself. And then the last one is the Yellowstone. And that's by far the hardest, most difficult one to get because it's this little teeny corner up in the middle of nowhere, Utah, that you actually drive up into Idaho and then back and dip back down into Utah to get to it. And it's dirt roads. I mean, you're going through my first trip out. We went through two ghost towns to get out to the river. And then when we're in the river, it was maybe ankle deep max. And we're like, there's fish in here. I can step across this river and it's ankle deep. Are you kidding me? But it's fun. It's fun. What else do you want to know about the slam?
Katie
Well, I did have a question quickly about the Bear River that you said is kind of a gray area of whether it's its own thing. Does that mean that the two designations that it goes back and forth between would be like a subspecies of cutthroat or like a strain of a different subspecies of cutthroat? Because I feel like there's different tiers I hear, and I don't know what the scientific differentiation between these is, but I feel like I hear the word strain thrown around as almost like an even more minute distinction than a subspecies.
Zig
Colorado you can get into the green strain or whatever it is.
Katie
Yeah. Like this tributary versus that tributary of the same subspecies. Yeah. Is that what it is?
Zig
The Bear River is, I guess, I don't know what the correct term is, but it was at one time a Bonneville cutthroat. But it was isolated enough. At one point, the Bonneville, the Bear River, were connected and you had intermixing of the two species. But then through earthquakes or whatever, millions of eons ago, it's now disconnected. So it's been disconnected for a while.
Katie
I see. So there's always It's a spectrum of where it's separating.
Zig
Yeah. So there's always an argument, is it still a Bonneville or is it a Bear River?
Katie
Yeah. Like at what point does it become its own thing? I see.
Zig
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie
I assume that's just something they could tell genetically.
Zig
I mean, yeah, they can tell it genetically. I mean, if you're looking at the two, they're very similar, depending on where you catch them, you know, they're going to have, definitely have some differences, but it's based off of the drainage that you catch them in. And if you, if you look on the Utah cutthroat slam, there's an excellent map that has color coded areas. So if I'm in the yellow area, I'm looking at the Colorado, if I'm in the, I think it's red, I'm looking at the Bonneville. Bear River, I think is blue. And then there's a section right in between the red and the Bear River, which is the Ogden River drainage. And that one, so if you're going after your Utah Cutthroat Slam, and you don't want to go all the way up into Logan and the northeastern corner of Utah and go after the specific Bear River up there, you can actually go to the Ogden River and catch a cutthroat out of that drainage. And that cutthroat can either count for your Bear River or your Bonneville.
Katie
Oh, OK. You can swing both ways.
Zig
Yeah, so it can swing both ways. So if you haven't gotten your Bonneville, you can go in there and get it and count it for your Bonneville. But you can't catch two in the drainage and count one for your Bear River and one for your Bonneville.
Katie
It feels like you shouldn't need this since there's no time limit on it. If there were a time limit on it, it's like you could catch this and it can count for this. But if you've got a lifetime to do it, it's kind of like just go to the place that it's been designated. I don't want to raid anyone's parade, but I feel like if you've got time, you should just go catch it where it's obvious. You got the time.
Zig
Go to the right drainage. And there are some places where you can catch cutthroat that don't count. The Strawberry Reservoir is a well-known reservoir around here where you're catching big cutthroat, 20 plus cutthroat, some good sized cutthroat. And those are-- see if I can get this right. I think they're in the Bonneville drainage, but they're actually Bear River cutthroats or something like that. So they're the wrong cutthroat species for that drainage.
Katie
So they don't count. Gotcha. Gotcha. And I know you're working on your fourth one now. So we don't have to completely recount every single one of your attempts. But if there's one attempt of all four that either is really notable to you or even just targeting this species this one time, this crazy thing happened, do you have any fun stories from your attempts at doing it, I guess, and your successful completions of the slam over and over again?
Zig
I got a lot of stories from my Yellowstone, going after the Yellowstone. So our first trip to get the Yellowstone, I was going with a good buddy of mine who actually used to be a soccer coach with me. So it was kind of the trip of twos. It took us a little over two hours to get there. As we're driving up, middle of summer, you know, weather looks great. We're thinking this is gonna be an awesome trip. Temps in the 80s, so a little warm, but not too bad, right? And as we start driving down the dirt roads, going into this far corner here, you know, we go past Naf, N-A-F, which is this little teeny, one of those ghost towns, has like the old dance hall is still there and stuff. We get a little past Naf and I'm looking at the sky and I'm like, it's going black and it's going black fast. And we get a little further down the road it starts to just dump rain. And I'm like, "Ugh, two hours and we're gonna get blown out on these little rivers, right?" Because they're little teeny rivers. And so, at that time, we went into one of the rivers called Johnson, which is probably the most prolific river. The Northern the region biologists have done a great job there bringing the population back and getting them to a real good population and stuff. So we're going there because it's probably the highest percentage river and everything. We turn and you know we get back into Utah, we turn and go through the little town of Yost, Utah, which I've heard is technically considered a ghost town but there's still like 40 some odd people who live there. Start I'm looking ahead and I'm like, is that a puddle on the river on the road? And we get closer and I'm like, that's looks like snow. It's middle of July. There shouldn't be snow at this level there. And so we stop and look and it was a pile of hail. Just you know a big big pile of hail from that storm that had rolled through and I'm just going, oh no. You know, okay let's go see the river and what what happened. So we drive up the canyon probably about a mile there's a point where you cross over the river on a culvert and we get a little past that and we get out and go look at the river and it's chocolate milk. I mean it is it looks like a pure sand blowout and we're just going oh no. All right well I talked with the northern region biologist and he'd given me some points saying you know, above this point, you're going to have better success. So I'm like, let's at least go to that point and check it out. So we drove up about another half mile or so to one of the little cutouts that's a little campsite area. And it's, you know, it's, it's four-wheel drive-ish type road. I mean, I've seen people in there in Subarus and stuff, but I wouldn't drive my Subaru in there if I had one. We get out, we get to the water and we're like, "Okay, that's not too bad." So there is, I think it's the West Arm of Johnson Creek or something like that. There's an attribute area that comes in, that's one of the splitting arms, and that was the one that was blowing all the mud into it. This one was still silty, a little colored up, but not horrible. So we get out, we start hiking, we start fishing, and we're fishing hard. Two hours in, we haven't caught or seen a fish. And I'm beginning to go, yeah, these fish don't exist. I don't know what you're talking about. Same time, I mean, this, the sections we're walking through, there's parts of the scrub that are so thick, it's like Vietnam jungle trying to battle through just to get out of the river and walk around to the next hole. So my buddy climbs up opposite bank and starts and goes up to another pool and I'm like I'm gonna start here and hit this pool and he goes up and around and There's a little pool has kind of an s-shaped bend to 90s coming in and it's got a real good Shallow rocky area coming in and it looks like a deeper pool Now mind you to this point all the deeper pools were ankle deep and I'm not a tall guy. I'm 5 7 They're not very deep And I have on a beetle pattern a foam beetle pattern. It was actually one of my dad's flies So it's an old deer hair beetle pattern and I'm using his rod. It's a little it's an older six foot eleven Sage four weight. I've got a branch from a tree at about two and a half feet and Then the top canopy of the of everything is at about five feet So I've got this little teeny window and I'm bow and arrow Casting up to the top of where that little trickle comes into the pond. I Cast it up there. I Managed to hit right in the middle of it decent drift down into the slower portion of the pond and I see a flash Yell for my buddy he's like you got one I'm like no, but I saw one Second cast in hook up with one Lift it up but I can't lift very high because they can't be so short and I'm like Breaching behind me trying to grab my net as fast as I can as I got this fish dangling trying to get off. So Managed to catch one there so I caught one I got the picture and You know, I'm like you give it a try. It looks like it's fairly deep There might be more than one in there. So he goes at it Can't remember what he was using at the time, but he casts in there and you know we're you're kneeling and doing this the the bow and arrow cast in there and He gets a hit Mitt I think he missed that one, but he landed one on the next one and it turns out we both caught two fish So there's there's the next two from the from the trip and Yeah, we we ended up getting that and I you know, if someone had told me I'd spend two hours driving there two hours hiking without a single fish in 80 degree weather that was humid because of the because of the storm that rolled through catch a catch two fish that were I think the big one was six inches and Be totally and completely satisfied and ecstatic about the trip. I would have looked at him and said yeah, right But it's it is I mean you catch this little teeny fish in this little teeny water and you're just like yes
Katie
Yeah, I feel like the harder I work to catch something the more satisfying it is It's often kind of unrelated to how big the fish is like a big fish is a lot of fun to catch Don't get me wrong, but it's often more related to how much I had to suffer to get to it. Yep complete one of these slams? Are you doing one of these each year kind of thing? Or do you spread them out over a little bit longer time?
Zig
Depends on how much time you have to dedicate to it.
Katie
No, I'm talking about you specifically, now that you're on number four.
Zig
Oh, me specifically?
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, how long are you taking to go through these?
Zig
So I did number one. It took me probably a little over a year, 14 months or so. Winter, it's pretty hard to go out and get Yellowstone in the winter. Number two and three were last year and I started number four at the start of this year. So for me, four to six months now, now that I know what I'm doing and where I'd want to go and stuff like that, but I'm trying to do with each of my slams, I'm not trying to hit the same water except for maybe up at the Yellowstone. I've tried to do some different things like my third slam, except for the Yellowstone, I tried to get every fish out of a lake instead of out of a river. I've got a good buddy that I fish with that did his all on tenkara. And in fact, if I remember right, his tenkara trip was all in one day.
Katie
Oh, wow.
Zig
So it's possible to do it in one day, but it's a very long day and it's probably about six, seven hundred miles of driving.
Katie
Yeah, it kind of takes the... well, I'm sure it's fun to do it in a day, but I feel like it takes the magic out of it a little bit when you're just a zombie from driving all day.
Zig
Right.
Katie
Have you thought about trying to do it like all on a single fly or something like that? Like, you know, they've all got to be on either the same pattern or the same fly, the same exact fly that's really going to put the pressure on you to not to lose it in that tight canopy.
Zig
I haven't done it with the same fly, but this one I am doing it with the same type of fly which is a size 14 stimulator.
Katie
Okay.
Zig
Olive stimmy with an orange head.
Katie
And are you you're three-quarters of the way done with this one?
Zig
I'm half halfway done. Hopefully next week I'll be three-quarters of the way. I'm actually doing if my Achilles holds up well I'm doing about 15 to 20 miles of backpacking next week into a drainage in the Uinta Mountains that gets very little pressure, very little people, and it has about eight to nine cutthroat lakes.
Katie
Oh, nice. And I assume you need to finish one slam before you start the next one. Like you couldn't go out, catch, you know, two, you said you caught two fish, you wouldn't catch two fish and then catch two each time you go out and then come back and say I just completed two slams. Like you've got to get one of each one and then you, you know, the the ticker restarts at that point.
Zig
So I'm not a I'm not 100% certain on that, but I do know what you do have to do is have paid for your license for the slam before you start capturing them. So you've got to pay for the license to register for the slam and then you can start catching them. So I mean, I guess technically you could maybe pay for two licenses and then do that, but I don't know anybody that's done that. I haven't talked with the program director to see if they'd kind of look at that and go, I don't think so.
Katie
I feel like it's not really the spirit of it. I feel like the idea is to set out to catch the four and then do it again once that's over.
Zig
Just because I want you to see these.
Katie
Oh, that looks really cool. Yeah, yeah, it's got the color.
Zig
So that one's the Colorado. That one's the Yellowstone. Do you know who Tim Johnson is?
Katie
The name sounds familiar, but that's also a really common sounding name. So I'm not sure.
Zig
So Tim Johnson does Timmy grips. He does really cool wood burning on grips for rods and paints them up. So you could have like a Colorado cutthroat trout on your grip. Amazing artist. And he did all the artwork for these species specific coins that are coming out now.
Katie
So do you get four coins per completion? Or what's
Zig
You get one coin per completion. So that's part of the reason I'm going after so many is the first coin, I wanted to display my coin on a kind of a shadow board with the front and the back. So I had to do at least two cutthroat slams for that, right? And then they came out with the new coins. And I'm like, oh, I guess I got to do four more cutthroat slams.
Katie
I got you. So do you get to choose which one you get when you finish it?
Zig
They're a limited run. So the first one they did, the Colorado, and there was about 750 coins. And they went, they thought they'd go for about a year and a half with those coins. They were gone last year, like in probably 10 months or something like that, they went through all those coins. And so they transitioned as they were getting close to the end of that, they transitioned to the next coin, which is the Yellowstone.
Katie
Oh, so they just kind of rotate through them. And so there's always like one coin that's currently available.
Zig
Yeah.
Katie
And you guys kind of aim your completion…
Zig
There was the original coin and then they announced the four new coins that would be coming out. The first one was the Colorado, second one's the Yellowstone. I don't know what's next. So once they get through the Yellowstone, they'll either jump to the Bonneville or the Bear River. And then once they get through that one, they'll go to the last one. And then I don't know what they're gonna do after that. I wrote them and I suggested, well, you could do the mountain range that a lot of them are typically in or something like that.
Katie
So are all of your challenge coins then going to be for display purposes, or have you gotten to pull one out yet?
Zig
Yeah, I think I'll probably display them. I've obviously pulled them out of their little display package and stuff, but I'll probably build a little display on them with a few of the flies and some of the certificates.
Katie
Do you wanna explain what a challenge coin, like what the premise of it is?
Zig
So a challenge coin, if you have military experience, the challenge coin started, I think it was back in the world wars. They were a way for people to kind of reckon, they've become a way for people to recognize hard work. For instance, in fact, my son who's in the army, he was out at his summer camp. He's an army reservist as a combat medic. He was out as a summer camp and he had a soldier come in that was experiencing some severe heat strokes and symptoms. And so they had to give him an IV. Well, this individual was deathly afraid of IVs. So he's having to give an IV to someone whose arm is absolutely shaking. And he, he managed to stick it. He was so proud of himself, you know, 20 year old, just, just fresh out of combat medic school and stuff. But the, uh, the Sergeant Major there gave him a coin for doing such a good job. You know, so it's a recognition of, of doing a great job and doing great things. So on this side, it's a recognition of the hard work that goes into catching all four of these species in their native range. Because, I mean, honestly, if the coin hadn't been there, I probably wouldn't have ever gone after a Yellowstone cutthroat in the far northwest corner of Utah. I mean, it's out there. It's by Alamo, Idaho, and City of Rocks. If you're a climber, there's a fairly well-known area called City of Rocks. But it's two hours. I live in northern Utah, so I'm closer than a lot of people. And it's still two hours for me to drive out there. So I probably would have never gone out there. And I definitely would have never looked at the water and gone, there's going to be fish in here.
Katie
Right. Right. Well, the last thing I wanted to ask about was I saw that you're currently doing another challenge, a backpacking challenge or some long-distance hiking? I didn't look into it because I wanted to hear it from you, but tell me what you're doing at the moment with that.
Zig
So there's a local, well, I guess local, there's a Utah company called Outdoor Vitals and they are an ultralight backpacking company. And for the last three years, they have put on challenge which is a hundred miles backpacking challenge completed within a certain time frame so this year you know like I said kids are out of the house and I got time and I love I absolutely love going up and chasing thin small you know thin blue lines and high alpine lakes and going after fish and the Uinta Mountains I mean one of my favorite places to go get the Colorado cutthroat trout. There's a lake and a river that's probably a seven mile day hike minimum or you could backpack in and and spend the night and fish it. So a lot of that I'm gonna be backpacking anyway so I'm like you know what this old man needs to get in shape I'll give it a go. There's two ways you can complete the challenge you can actually do a hundred miles in one trip, which there are people that are doing that. I'm not in that shape or anything right now. Or you can do what's called stacked, so you can stack multiple trips together to get your hundred miles. You have from July 1st to September 30th to complete those hundred miles and out of that you get I think there's like a pin and a certificate or something like that. But I kind of looked at it. They have a unique model for their company. They have a subscription that gets you a discount on their gear. But like $10 a month and that subscription and that actually goes into a bank account for you. So it's a great way to budget for ultralight backpacking gear and signing up for the challenge. You got a really lightweight long-sleeve hoodie which is perfect for fishing right? Yeah. So I'm like I would have paid that much to get one of those hoodies anyways, why not? So yeah I started that. They have a really good training plan that you can follow to ramp up based on whether you're... let me grab it really quick so I get the wording right. So or an advanced hiker. And the advanced hikers are the people that are doing 100 miles and some of these people are doing 100 miles in five days. So they're doing some pretty hefty hiking. But they've got the training plan. I started out on it and I'm like, "Yeah, I'm a casual hiker." But as I started putting numbers on, I'm like, "I'm more moderate." But then, yeah, lo and behold, my Achilles flared up with some tendinitis, and I had to take three weeks off. So I'm just getting back to it. I'm not where I want to be, but I'm still hoping to complete that 100.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like these kinds of things are just a great way to kind of give yourself a reason to get out. Not that it's the only reason to get out. I mean, it sounds like you'd be out fishing anyway. But to be able to combine something like this and have something more concrete to work toward to get you out. I'm the same way where I don't like to be someone who just checks boxes. But if I have some sort of organized thing that I'm trying to complete, I just find myself making more time to go do the things that I want to be doing all the time, but I don't always feel like I can justify going out and spending time on something. I always feel like I should be getting something done around the house or whatever. But having something more concrete to work toward always motivates me to get out and about. So I think I'm similar to you where I like these challenges and things like that to work toward.
Zig
Yeah, yeah. It, it gives you that target to focus on. You know, one of the -- I used to train salesmen, and it was funny because, you know, we could put a number out there, and we could put a bonus to finding the number. But, hey, if we had a single t-shirt that they'd win, you know, if they were the top salesperson, oh, man, it cutthroat. So given that target, it drives that competitiveness in people.
Katie
I did want to ask too, are you like an ultralight guy? I know you're doing this challenge through this ultralight company, but is that just because they happen to be doing a challenge that you're interested in or would you consider yourself kind of an ultralight backpacker?
Zig
No, I'm not fully an ultralight backpacker. My wife wouldn't appreciate me buying that much gear at the moment so I've got some older gear that's a little heavier but I'm not bad. I did an overnighter with my Labrador up into the Uintas just this last weekend and I think even with his food and my food and stuff I got it down to about 30 pounds so. Okay yeah
Katie
I think that's when I think of my typical backpacking weight I think it's usually around 30 which is definitely not ultra light but I consider it just like getting myself in more shape like I sometimes I'll throw a little extra stuff in because I'm like I'll get my legs in in better shape for next time and then the next time I'll feel a little bit lighter if I put a little bit more in this time. Do you have any tips for fishing with a dog by the way? I don't feel like dogs come up that much on on the show but we take our dog fishing all the time and it's not always helpful to have a dog around so any any words of wisdom for people who want to
Zig
So I have two rescue Labradors. Love them to death. One of them absolutely loves to hike. I mean, he's my old guy. He's 9-10 now and he loves to hike. You can tell that that's like his job. As soon as we start hiking, and I don't trust him off leash, they just, they're too reactive that I trust him off leash. But he just gets in this mode and there's just this black lab that's just chugging up the trail and he's just focused. And then I've got my younger one, my chocolate, and he is an absolute nut. The first mile he is left, right, left, right, left, right, sniffing everything until he finally settles down. And my black lab, I've taken him fishing and he does not tolerate fishing. He will go about 15 minutes and then I start getting demand barks from him.
Katie
Oh, geez.
Zig
looking at me just going, "Roof! Roof!" He wants to get back on the trail and get going. My chocolate lab, I've just started trying him and I thought he'd do okay, but he's a little obsessive. And yeah, I caught two brookies. The second one, I had him tied up on about a 20 foot floating long lead and just because I didn't want him jumping in the water. And I caught the brookie and he's kind of like excited and going, "What's that?" And so I let him sniff it and right as I let him sniff it, it flopped. And so it hit the ground right at the edge of the water and it started splashing. And he was like, "Oh, game on. I'm going to assault this thing." Jumps on it and he's trying to get it. My flies break off, you know, he's going crazy. And I'm like, "Yeah, this is not going to go well the rest of the night." And he was just locked on. It was funny, every time a fish rose after that, he's locked on. I mean, he is staring at it. I'm surprised he didn't point. He was so locked on, you know, staring at it. I'm like, yeah, if I gave him any slack, he's going to be in that water going after every little rise. And it was, it was funny. Cause when we got to the area, um, he'd never seen a lily pad. So he went down and got a drink and he saw the lily pad and he's like, Oh, what's that bites it and he's like, okay, whatever. And he gets out and I look at him. I'm like, I'll let him play a little bit because I'd already taken his little pack off and everything. And I'm like, what's that? And he looks at the lily pads and he jumps back in again. Well, he gets just past a section of lily pads and there's a submerged tree, only it's kind of floating. And as he's swimming, his paws are tapping the branch. And so there's this branch 10 feet further out that's bobbing up and down in the water. And he's like, "Game on!" And he goes out there and he grabs this branch and is trying with all his might to pull this tree into the shore. And he's out there for, you know, probably 30 seconds just paddling. Finally, he's like, "OK, I'm tired." Comes back into shore, and he looks at it for a few minutes, and he's back out. So three times that night, and then the next morning when we left, another two times, he was going after that branch trying to pull it in. So yeah, I don't think he's going to be a fishing dog for me.
Katie
Sounds like they're both laser focused, but on different things. One's laser focused on the mission at hand, getting to the final destination, and the other one is laser focused on I don't know, I guess what's right around him, but often not what's helpful for you.
Zig
Well, and he's very much American lab, the hunting breed. So he's got that high drive and really and stuff like that, whereas my black lab is food motivated. He's the English lab. He's the bigger barrel-chested, good old boy lab that wants to snuggle up and get lots of food.
Katie
Yeah. It's funny how they're all so different. There's no one way that a dog reacts to fishing. Our dog's annoying habit is that she always wants to jump in the run that you're about to fish. I've fished every run up until this point, and you can jump in literally any of those, and it'll be great. But you won't be satisfied unless you jump into the next one I'm about to hit. But I mean, I just love having her around. So I get over it. I don't take her places where I'm really concerned about catching anything. Just because I like to watch her have fun. But it is funny that they all react a little bit differently. They've all got their own little idiosyncrasies that make them-- their own particular breed of annoying when you're trying to fish.
Zig
Yep. Well, and both of mine, like I said, both of mine are rescues. And I got them at about nine months. So they're still a little bit already set in their ways. I think if I'd had a puppy and had the chance to train him from a puppy, I could have got him to wear especially Maverick, my chocolate that's so laser-focused. If I'd had a chance to really train him before he kind of got set on some of his reactivity and stuff like that, I think he would have been a really good fishing lab, but obviously not now.
Katie
Well, Zig, just to wrap up, if you want to share any sort of social media, I know I saw a YouTube channel. Where can people find you if they wanted to follow along with your adventures, if you want to share anything?
Zig
So I've got a YouTube channel, just starting that up, that's Into Mountains. It's IN, the number two, and M-T-N-S, so the acronym for mountains. And then on Instagram, I'm also In2Mtns. And in fact, just recently, I was able to get that as my license plate. So my license plate is this thing.
Katie
That's your thing now.
Zig
It's my thing. I'm into the mountains. I used to mountain bike. I fly fish. I hike. I backpack. So give me the mountains. That's my happy place.
Katie
So if anyone sees that car driving around Utah, give you a wave if they recognize your license plate out there.
Zig
There you go.
Katie
All right, well, I will let you get going. But this is a ton of fun. I hope your fourth cut slam goes well. And I hope to hear updates on that as you finish that up.
Zig
Absolutely.
Katie
Alright, thanks, Zig. Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find a contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram @fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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