Ep 136: Fly Fishing Adventures and Conservation Policy, with Gabriella Hoffman

Sep 12

Gabriella Hoffman is a freelance outdoor writer, host of the District of Conservation Podcast, and works in conservation policy. In this episode, we talk about her journey getting introduced to fly fishing, her work in conservation and podcasting, and how various states have managed the right to hunt and fish.

Instagram: @Gabriella_Hoffman

Facebook: /TheGabbyHoffman

X: @Gabby_Hoffman

Waypoint TV

Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 136 with Gabriella Hoffman on fly fishing adventures and conservation policy. I start every episode by getting a background on how my guests got into the outdoors and into fishing. So I'd love for you to walk me through how you got introduced to the outdoor world in general and into fly fishing specifically.
Gabriella
My introduction into the outdoor world, That's a great origin story. I feel like I'm probably like most American born women who is millennial, you know, in terms of where I fall on the generation scale, baptism by, you know, kind of fire type of deal. My father, of course, I feel like a lot of women had their fathers introduce them to fishing. And for me, that was very much the case. And he was kind of fairly new to fishing himself. Like he grew up with fishing. He learned it from some relatives in Eastern Europe. My family came from what is now the former Soviet Union, now modern day Lithuania, where there's actually a lot of great fishing. So fishing wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility for my family. So there's some sort of like interconnectedness I have to, you know, my ancestral roots and also just, you know, my father's story of it and that love of fishing just transferred to me. And I remember fondly the first memories we had of fishing and just general outdoor experiences. I also went to national parks too, growing up in California, Yosemite, Sequoia. Those two definitely came to mind. And I grew up like 15, 20 minutes from the beach. So there was always like something outdoorsy. But to really capture my interest, I think my dad had thought, you know, I don't have any sons. I just have two daughters. I'm the older of two. And the best way to bond is to do fishing. And so that's how my dad and I bonded. And we would go sometimes deep sea fishing in the Pacific Ocean off of what is the Dana Sport Fishing Pier, Dana Point Sport Fishing Pier. It's a pretty renowned place for surfing, but also for fishing as well. And it was just a great thing we used to do. There was a deal at the time. I'm not sure if it's still available. Times may have changed with inflation and whatnot, but it used to be called like Two for Tuesday. So anytime I didn't have school during the summertime, my dad always wrote me into these fishing adventures and we would go a couple miles offshore on these kind of like bigger vessels and try our hand at like catching on a mackerel or some of the saltwater species that the Pacific Ocean offers. And we would also go inland to the Santa Ana River lakes. And it was known for at the time having this like huckleberry fin bass pond, or pond in general that had I think trout, bass, catfish. And I started fishing at eight. And so by the time I was 12, I was firmly situated and firmly hooked into it because there was a pivotal turning point for me with fishing on a bait cast rod. Of course, and that's what I started with bait and spin cast, but primarily bait cast that bait fishing was just a lot easier to do at the time. And so I was 12 years old. It was Memorial Day weekend, 2003. I'm dating myself that way. Sounds like a long time ago, 21 years, but I was eight years old or 12 years old at the time, excuse me. And we were fishing at this pond because the lake was maybe flushed out or something, or it wasn't ideal conditions to go to the Santa Ana river. So the pond would suffice, I guess, as a fishing backdrop. And we knew we would catch some fish. So my dad wanted to ensure that there would be some high likelihood of catching, you know, being a young kid, you want to have some interest, you want to be glued to the activity or essentially hooked. So you need some sort of incentive and increase your likelihood of catching a fish. So the pond just worked as a good kind of training ground for us in addition to the ocean. And so I hooked into this huge catfish. I still remember the measurements today in the girth. It was a 8.9 pound, 28 and a half inch long catfish. I don't remember if it was flathead or the other species, but it was a big fish. And we can't find this picture to this day. I know I remember having a picture taken. It was on the website, but 20 something years ago, I don't think websites would save those pictures. They'd be there for a short time and then they would be discarded. And there was no way to contact the pond. I think years later to ask, do you have an archive of our fishing picture from Memorial Day 2003? No one, I don't think, keeps archives like that. So it was, I hooked this in and my dad's a talker. So he was talking to someone else and I was screaming to my dad, like, dad, I hooked into a catfish. It's huge. I need your help. Come help me. And I was like, not screaming out of like fear, but I was like, you know, raising my voice to be like, I need your attention now, please come help me. So he, I was like fighting it pretty well, even in this little pond situation, fought the fish. And then he finally came over with a net, helped me net the fish, take it out. And I don't know if I was already at my height. I'm like five, three, five, four. And so I was, you know, I'm a small woman and, you know, the fish looked really big to me. You know, at the time I was like, oh my, it's like a fraction of my height. It's pretty big. It's heavy. I never really felt like a heavy fish before until I caught this. I'd seen my dad catch big fish. And that Memorial Day 2003 catfish was just like the thing that really drew me in. And statistics show that anyone, women or men who take an interest in fishing and you start before I think the age of 18, you're like 90 some odd percent more likely to stay interested in fishing for life. So the earlier you hook into the sport, the more the longevity and the more the interest you have. That's not saying adult onset anglers can't also develop a love of fishing later in life. I know plenty of people who are exceptions to this kind of statistic factoid, but at any age you can take an interest, but they always say firmly and the data points to the earlier you start fishing, the more likely and you have good success with it, or you enjoy all facets of it, you're going to likely fish for life. And that was the case for me. I'm part of that statistic where I just couldn't stop fishing. And as I start to get older in my journey, so I got to do more, you know, kind of extreme fishing or I would say like high tech fishing. But the fly fishing interest, I think, developed when I was already here on the East Coast. I finished college 2012. I move out to the East Coast and I don't think I picked up a fly rod or even just developed an interest maybe until like 2014, 2015, because I had befriended someone who is phenomenal. One of my dear friends now, she's like an older sister to me, Debbie Hansen, who's a fly fishing water guide, specializing, excuse me, in fly fishing for bass or for freshwater species, peacock bass in Southwest Florida. And she really got me interested in fly fishing. And she was like, Gabriella, you need to like check out the Orvis store, look into the Orvis 101 course. I can assure you you're going to like it. You're going to, it's going to take some time for you to learn. You're going to learn about, you know, how to finesse your line, the different types of fly patterns, how casting is. It's going to be a little different than your typical hook set. And so I would see her do it. And I had seen some fly casting before, but it really wasn't until I took my Orvis 101 course where I fully dove in headfirst into fly fishing. And I would say it was a little intimidating to go into it. Not because I was worried about, you know, people criticizing my technique or being like rude or not welcoming. And there was, when I took my Orvis 101 fishing school, there was a guy who was one of our assigned fishing guides who got really impatient with me because I didn't know what to do. And I accidentally snagged a fly into a tree. I was just like, you didn't have to behave like this in my mind. I was like, oh, do I really want to do this? Like I caught a trout like four minutes into the fishing trip, and then I caught nothing. I got skunked the rest of the trip at this Orvis fish school, where you do the day long kind of immersion program after you've done fly fishing 101, you got in your gear. So trying on the gear, learning about, you know, the science behind all the insects and, and just learning that. So it was a lot to kind of grapple with. And I'm still learning to this day, like I talked about with you on when I had you on my podcast, you know, for me, it's still like a learning curve. And it's a journey. And I think fly fishing is a lot of a lifetime of learning and going through it and polishing your craft. So it's not like you're going to stop learning, you're always going to improve because every region is very different. East coast fly fishing is very different from what's West coast or mountain West fishing. So I have to be cognizant of that. Anytime I try to fish in a new area or when I fished in Alaska, I learned a different kind of technique. It's not snagging of course, cause that's pretty frowned upon, but there was a type of, fly fishing technique. I forget it off the top of my head. What, what technique we were using, but with a bead, pattern and then, using a nine, 10 weight rod. And it was a little different. It kind of reminded me of steelhead fishing in Pennsylvania with kind of a more conventional spin cast rod, but using the fly fishing technique there. So every region is very different. Some even states are very different in terms of that. So for me, I would say it's been a largely positive experience. Like even with that guide who was kind of impatient with me, I was reassured from, you know, other people who were there along my fly fishing journey. He's now retired, or I think he's taken his kind of talents elsewhere. But the one Orvis manager that I got to know was really the nicest person, most welcoming person ever. Like he made you feel comfortable. It was like an old mentor. I don't know. Like I've had mentors through other facets of my life and my professional career. And he just felt like an old soul, like really calm, really patient, nice person. And, you know, folks like that really reminded me that, you know, even if you encounter one kind of stodgy person or kind of one like rude person, it doesn't negate your whole experience. So I've learned that one person shouldn't ultimately determine your whole perception about fly fishing. And I had kind of bought into the caricatures of fly fishing that, oh, it's kind of these uptight, you know, guys that go fly fishing and they are very elitist. And unless you like think like them or you behave like them, you'll never fit in. And I've learned that actually fly fishing has become, I would say maybe in the last five years or so, it's a lot more ecumenical. You see people from all different, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds doing it. It's not just like trust fund guys or guys or women, you know, who grew up with trust funds. It's, it's a lot more, I would say affordable as a sport now that it's become more popular, more interest. So because of market demand, you know, they're competing, the manufacturers and the different stores are competing and the prices have pre, you know, inflation times had gotten a lot lower. So for me, I think it's become a lot more affordable and within reach also because of the success of different programs. So that's kind of a long winded response to your question, but I would say my fly fishing is kind of a full circle thing for me. And I don't stop doing, and I haven't stopped doing bait and spin cast fishing. I actually still supplement fly fishing, but I prefer to do fly fishing exclusively for trout fishing now. So I'm very choosy about what type of fish I'm pursuing on what type of rod. Recently, almost two years ago, I was bait and spin casting for, and sight fishing for Cobia and Red Drum. I'm not ready to catch those on the fly. It was a challenge enough sight fishing for them on a bait and spin rod. so maybe I'll work my way to, to fly fish for saltwater, brackish water species at some point, but that's still kind of out of reach for me. But for fresh water, I love like fly fishing anytime I can, do that. So I will still use bait and spin, you know, if nothing works, like I went peacock bass fishing a few years ago, I tried everything. I threw streamers, I threw dry flies, in Florida when I was fishing in the canals for peacock bass, nothing bit except for a live bait. So, you know, you kind of have to have all tools in your arsenal, but I feel like I am more inclined to do fly fishing these days. And I'm trying to expand where I apply that as well.
Katie
I'm curious why you like fly fish specifically for trout, because I'm kind of the same way. And for me, it's kind of halfway between, I think fly fishing is, it's often the more effective way to catch trout, especially in like the places I fish, you know, it's, it's small creeks. They're not eating like massive things. They're eating tiny insects on the surface and fly fishing is the right way to imitate that. But also I think just kind of, you know, they feel kind of fragile and they've got the small mouths and small heads. And I, you know, I hate to see pictures of like a giant treble hook, you know, in one side of their face, another treble hook, like over here, stuck in the other side of their face and blood going everywhere. And it just doesn't feel like, you know, when a bass is hooked that way that it really cares, you know, it almost feels like the bass doesn't notice or that catfish you caught. Like, you know, I can imagine that catfish didn't even know that it had a hook in its face because they're so hardy and they recover so well. But is there a specific reason for you that you like to target trout specifically on a fly, whereas you'll target other species and other methods?
Gabriella
I think I'm like you where I wasn't so bothered by using a treble hook, but if you're catching a small fish and you're using a treble hook and you have to release the fish, whether you've reached your creel limit or whether it's, you know, you can't keep it or you're fishing only in like a catch and release stream where you're only required to do, you know, fly patterns or plastics. I got kind of uncomfortable. I'm like, oh no, I don't want to like damage a trout. Like if I've reached the creel limit or it's restricted in terms of a method. So I think it was a little disquieting for that. And if it's like, you know, there's one place in Virginia where I have done trouble hook fishing, but I've reached the limit and that's it, you know, because fly fishing there is kind of a so in very select ways would I use a treble hook but I think I grew to like the fact that on the fly it's much more simpler if I have to release it to have the hook that it is and I kind of like not having to deal with live bait as much like your hands get dirty get dirt I mean I don't mind getting my hands dirty but it's just a little more clean of a process where you can remove flies very easily if something doesn't work I've tried to do it with a swivel because my fingers are so thick. So sometimes it's hard for me to fly tie. And so a swivel can sometimes help me like exchange the flies really rapidly if I'm not, you know, comfortable with my tying abilities, or I'm just like, I need to change something really quickly, or my line is really short. Sometimes I will, I wouldn't say cheat, but sometimes find a shorter way to kind of switch around different flies. But yeah, I think I found it to be pretty disquieting. And I don't want to injure a fish, especially if I'm not going to eat it. And not that I would intentionally injure a fish. But if you catch kind of very aggressive way. And obviously the fish is going to die because you're going to consume it. that's where I think you could still use it, but it just makes more sense. And I've become more conscious over the years of like those type of hooks, that are those red hooks. I can't remember what they're called. I, I used some of it for some Southwest Florida fishing. but it's, it's a much better thing than a trouble hook and it's going to have less damage to the fish, but something kind of similar to that. So I learned through my friend Debbie and some others that there are more practical hooks where if you're uncomfortable, you know, having to see a fish, you know, suffer that fate, or you're just like, I need to release the fish. It's not the season to keep them. Or we only can catch release them at this time of year. I think anglers can evolve to be like, I want to make sure that I'm doing something sustainably. It's ethical. And if I want to take it home, you know, I can have that added bonus too. So I think the technology and the, the, the tackle is evolving too. And I like that fly fishing. You don't necessarily have to worry about it's already retrofitted in that way where it's a smaller hook like you said because trout tend to be a little smaller and definitely not you know trophy size all the time depending upon where you go but Virginia trout are pretty small too they are maybe between like 8 to 12 14 inches they're really miniature probably like a lot of Colorado trout are and so you definitely want to not use anything that would injure the fish or you know cause it to die immediately upon release so I like to be conscious about that as well. And I don't know, it's just so much fun when you're tugging them, like when it's tugging at the other end of your line and you're fighting it even in a pond setting or a river setting or a stream. I just love the chase and I love just the feeling I get on the other end of the line of it, like fighting me and resisting. And I just feel, I don't know, it just feels more exhilarating than just getting it on a conventional hook. I just, I don't know, it's, it leaves me kind of like speechless in terms of just how much of a more enjoyable experience it is and how you have to work a little harder to get it. Cause like you tied the fly, you cast it at a certain way. Maybe you took several strokes and casts to get the appropriate, you know, presentation and placement before a fish. So there's an art to it. I love the art about it and just the finesse and what goes into it. So it's just something I've gravitated to more and it just is much easier. I feel confident setting up my rod and disassembling it and just knowing that it took a lot of work to get the fish. You work really hard in fly fishing to get a trout, even if it's a really minute, small trout and you value it. So I think fly fishing, adding to just the general patience that you have to have for fishing, fly fishing even teaches you even more greater patience and to appreciate the fish you catch, whether you decide to keep it or release it to let it grow even bigger. Absolutely.
Katie
I have a couple of like random questions based on some things you've said that aren't really going to tie together, but just as you were talking, I was picking up on some things. That guide that you first started with, that was not the nicest person, was there any part of you during that that was inclined to steer away from fly fishing? Or do you feel like you were kind of immune to his bad attitude and were able to kind of pick it out that early that this was just kind of a fluke, not something that you need to worry about and not something you need to put stock into?
Gabriella
I think the following days after I was like having some doubts as to could I continue like, oh gosh, I sometimes I'm sensitive to criticism. I've grown a lot, you know, more of a thick skin because I work in politics too. So you you have to develop a thick skin and accept criticism constructive or otherwise. So as I was becoming more mature with with how I handle criticism or people's responses or reflexes to your behavior. And I don't I don't know this person. I only met them once. And I don't know if they're involved in fly fishing here. I wouldn't be able to tell you the person's name. Maybe they were having a bad day. I don't know. But in the in the following days, I just felt, you know, I'm doubting myself, am I like, do I need to reconsider this hobby? Would should this one person affect my decision to want to pursue this? And after I stood it over and let those few days pass, I kind of realized that I don't need to let one person or one person scoffing at me really affect my interest. So of course, obviously, I didn't stop fly fishing afterwards. But I took a few days to pause and be like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to encounter snotty people like this. What's the point of me fishing? But I shrugged that off. And I shrugged it off at the time, because I just got to meet more people and had more opportunities. So I realized that it's not just a one and done experience. Of course, I was starting to supplement that experience at that trout school with more in in person gatherings, more tutorials, fly tie events, you know, we have a lot of those here in the DC area, but out west mountain west, everyone loves to do fly tying. So burgers and do some fly tying. So I got to do a few of that. So I got to know people locally who are fixtures, who, who understand kind of the lay of the land with fly fishing, whether you're doing smallmouth bass in the Potomac or trout closer to Shenandoah national park or any type of species, red drum in the lower Chesapeake Bay or in the middle Bay, whatever it is. But so I got to know the people and see that not everyone is like this or not everyone is very uppity. You can't please everyone in fishing. And there are people who may not like what you think, or may have some differences with you. And I've encountered a couple in fly fishing who we just don't get along or not by my choice, but because they may not like how I think in certain things or whatever. Like I'm like, I'm like fishing is my escape from politics or from, you know, media. It's not something I want to be engaging, you know, aggressively with people. I'm coming to escape. So some people are just like, oh no, no, I have to be on the offensive because you think differently than me or whatever. And so maybe a handful of people like that I've encountered and you just don't get along with them. But for the most part, I've gotten along with people in fly fishing really easily. And I've met so many women who have also been in my shoes who have, you know, maybe had some bad guide experiences or someone was really negative towards them with fly fishing, but they just didn't let that one instance deter them from, you know, picking up an interest more. And I just continued in that cycle. And I'm at a point when I was able, when I would be able to be comfortable, you know, teaching others how to fly cast or how to fly fish. Some friends of mine who work in similar circles that like me, I would be like, let's go to this park or let's go here. Let's try fishing here. So let's do a trout hike or let's, you know, do some sort of fishing. So I got to involve other people too, that I met along the way, friends of mine or people that were traveling in the same circles. And so it was really cool. So now I'm kind of in a position where I could teach people how to fly fish and I'll tell them, I'll caveat, you know, the lesson or any experience to be like, I'm not the best, you know, instructor, but I can teach you how to do casting. I can teach you how to tie a fly line and you're going to be on your own. It's going to be really, you know, kind of a firsthand experience and you have to immerse yourself in it and take everything that comes with it and really just immerse yourself in fly fishing and see what happens because there's no foolproof formula or recipe for, you know, landing a fish or maybe your fly is not the perfect thing that a trout or another fish is going to readily eat or take get interested in. And like we were talking about on my podcast, when I had you on the sports women show, sometimes fish are really picky. Like I said, in, in even like isolated bodies of waters, like a pond from feeding from a mountain stream, you know, filtering into that, even though these are farm raised trout, I had tried so many different colored patterns, but they're very privy to streamers, especially woolly buggers that are green, maybe because the vegetation in the pool looks very similar to it. I tried a couple other brightly colored ones. They like the egg pattern to, but they will not go for like a darker colored streamer. So I know what fish, even in these more isolated kind of controlled settings, like when I'm in a wild stream, it's extremely unpredictable. You don't know, or if you know, it's a tinier trout, you, you look for like nymphs or, you know, a very small, like pheasant tail pattern is something that they're going to be more inclined to bite on. Or I think for stocked fish, because unfortunately we have primarily stocked fish here in Virginia. I forget what it is. I bought it and they're kind of very fuzzy, but they eat up this pattern typically a lot, the stalkers. So I was encouraged by a friend to buy this pattern and see what happens. But sometimes the fish don't even incline to that either. They're just, oh, I'm just going to spit this out and taunt you and tease you. So it's a good hobby. I don't know if I can make a professional fly fishing full time, but I do love it. I don't do it nearly enough. I don't think I've even gone fly fishing this year much. I've done one bass fishing trip. It's just it's been so crazy with my work life that I just haven't had time to do fly fishing. The last time I did fly fishing was when I was in Alaska for a work trip. And the salmon trip was included as part of like the fun activity we had as part of my report. So I was able, you know, to reach the pinnacle of fly fishing with catching a salmon on the fly, which is pretty high on my list and was able to notch that achievement and really be proud of that. And it was the hardest working fish I had ever had because it was towards the tail end of the salmon season in mid-August and there wasn't much biting. Like I had hooked into a couple steelhead trout and they just like spit out the bait or sorry, spit out the fly rather. And they were just not taking what we were presenting them. So it was like half a day, almost six, seven hours of really difficult fishing. And towards the end, I was able to land like a really tiny little salmon. Then I got a steelhead, which we released. And then I finally hit the pinnacle of catching the, I think it was a silver salmon or a chrome salmon on the fly. So even though I caught very few fish, I still remember fondly that trip, even though it's, you know, not too far in the distant memory of it. But it's just such a memorable, you know, trip because I saw grizzly bears. I saw bald eagles, ospreys. I saw all these kinds of wildlife. And we had a Labrador on board, you know, so there were so many different idiosyncrasies and just things I enjoyed about that trip and the blue, like crystal blue water from the glacial runoff. Just, it was just so out of this world. I have never fished anything like that. And Montana is beautiful. And I know they have some glacial streams as well. And Colorado maybe does too, if I'm not mistaken, you'll, you can correct me on that or clarify there. But, fishing in Montana, I've seen like very beautiful clear streams in the Kootenai National Park. I've fished there and I did one pond near Kalispell, but I have never seen blue crystal glacial water before. And it just like was so spellbinding and beautiful. And just to see the fish emerge from that was, I don't know, breathtaking. It was so beautiful to me and just kind of left me speechless and wanting to do this more and come back and try it again, maybe with more success next time. But like that was the hardest working fish I've ever had. I think of any fishing trip, fly fishing or not. and it'll be something that sticks in my mind for a long, long time. And I'm glad I got pictures of it because I would be so upset if I didn't.
Katie
Speaking of cool destinations like that, I know you mentioned earlier on, like you did some fishing in Sequoia National Park. I actually just visited there for the first time, like a couple of weeks ago on my drive back from California. And unfortunately, most of the park was closed. I didn't realize that when I went, but they're still kind of under like winter dates, even though the snow was mostly thawed. But I didn't get a chance to fish there. Tell me about Sequoia. Like what kinds of fishing did you do there? Would you catch? What kind of, what's like the terrain like and everything?
Gabriella
Well, funny enough, I may have to correct you there. I visited the park. I never fished there. Oh, okay, okay. But we fished somewhere nearby. I've fished like Lake Tahoe kind of surroundings before. Okay. So no, I never got to fish out that way. I was actually planning to fish near Sequoia National Park actually last year when I had another film trip out there, but it was just too much. I couldn't plan for it. So I settled for a pond in Fresno, unfortunately, but I was like looking to do like, oh, I can go to this public water area, but it was just too far from where we were based. And I just didn't want to like waste time to drive there and do this. Fishing wasn't such a big integral part. We were talking about salmon and reservoirs in California. So it could have worked. But one of the people I interviewed, one of the farmers was actually an avid fly angler. So he gave me some custom flies to use and I still have some of them. So even though I didn't get to fish that region per se, I got some good little kind of tokens of appreciation to incorporate into my fishing repertoire. But I visited the national parks. That's what I should have clarified and said. No, I haven't. I think the only national park that I have fished at, I would think would be right outside Yellowstone. So it's a little ways off. I haven't really fished in the national parks as much. Shenandoah has a really good wild trout or series of wild trout streams. And I really want to try that out, like on a backcountry trout fishing extravaganza experience. And we have a charter company here and I may be going in the fall. It's called Cool Water. I forget what it is. Cool Water Outfitters. And so they do backcountry trout fly fishing adventures against the backdrop of Shenandoah National Park. And my friend who runs our fly fishing festival here in Virginia has told me so much about it. And he's like, I need to get you. And I met the owner and the guys are really cool and chill and, and not mean or, or not like, you know, sensitive to whatever, you know, something there. A lot of men are very understanding in, in the fly industry. It was just that one bad apple. but the nicest people around. So I'm hoping that I get to go on that experience with them against the backdrop of Shenandoah. But no, I wish I have fished in Sequoia. It's beautiful water. Like, but when I went the first time as a kid, just to visit the park, there was fires. There were fires. So I don't think we would have gone fishing. And I don't remember if during that trip we did because my dad probably would have done some fishing, but I don't remember us fishing in that specific national park trip. But I have for Yellowstone on the Snake River, either inside or just immediately outside of park boundaries. And I have fished in proximity of the Glacier National Park, but never really in it. So one of my goals will be hopefully to fish inside a national park. I'm hoping Shenandoah, because I have fished in the tributaries adjacent to it or the streams that feed from like Old Rag Mountain or Shenandoah National Park. So really close to National Park, but never quite in them.
Katie
Yeah, I've heard good things about Shenandoah. And when I was in Sequoia, it looked like I didn't see a lot of the streams that were in the National Park because I was kind of up up the valley a little bit, not down on the bottom. And like I said, I a lot of the park was closed. And so I kind of had plans to go on a hike along the river. And then I basically couldn't go anywhere except General Sherman, which was a cool thing to see. But, you know, I paid like 35 bucks to see a giant tree. And then that was kind of all I could do, unfortunately. but that part of California is just really beautiful. Like the big rounded boulders, you know, kind of like hard bedrock creeks, not a lot of, you know, gravel and stuff, just kind of these smooth, these smooth substrates, just really pretty. I haven't gotten a chance to fish out there yet. We've been doing field work out in California. So I keep seeing all these streams, but haven't gotten a chance to fish in any of them yet. But it sounds like a really nice place to grow up, just kind of surrounded by all that, that beauty. I wanted to ask too, you said that your family's from Lithuania. Have you done any fishing like in that part of Europe? Have you gone to Eastern Europe to fish at all?
Gabriella
I have been to Eastern, I've been to Lithuania when I was again, eight, nine years old. And actually, I don't know when your podcast is going to drop. So in mid to late August, I am actually returning to Lithuania after my first visit 25 years ago. And there is some fishing planned. I don't know if there's going to be fly rods involved or not, but it's not like trout season. So I think we're going to be primarily targeting pike, smallmouth, if I'm not mistaken, some of the popular summer species that you find, but it's going to be unfortunately too warm. And just a little bit before the start of trout or salmon season. So I'm missing that by a few weeks, I think, or a month or two. But I am looking forward to exploring and seeing that because there are a lot of very similar species, but they have some differentiation from, you know, American equivalents, I guess. But I hope one day, once I go back, you know, now get a feel for it just to refamiliarize myself with it. If I go back again during the appropriate time and season to actually go salmon fishing, because when it was under communist rule, the communists were terrible stewards of the environment. And the river that my dad grew up on the nearest river right outside the capital Vilnius was one of the most polluted bodies of water. I had seen a documentary on YouTube, I think a year or two ago, or maybe it was during COVID when I had nothing to do like the rest of the world. And you were stuck at home watching stuff. I remember catching a YouTube documentary on the recovery of Lithuanian salmon. And within 30 years, it's such an amazing turnaround. There's so many different salmon and people hook up monster salmon in this river that my dad grew up and fished on a really close to the capital city. So they have done a lot to really turn around the salmon populations, the steelhead in that country, you know, now that they had regained freedom 30 some odd years ago. And it's just an amazing testament to the fact that conservation is so universal. Every country does it differently, of course. But for that particular country, my ancestral homeland, it's just so fascinating to see them implement very similar practices here and just to see that fish make a comeback in such a relatively short amount of time. So if I get to like go back and exclusively do some fishing, I really want to like document that with my videographer that I use and just tell that story of just the salmon's recovery in post-communist Lithuania, free Lithuania now. because it's really a hidden gem. Like people, when they talk about going to Europe, like, oh, I want to go to Slovakia, to the glacial rivers, or I want to go to like Scotland or England and fish there. And I want to fish in England too because that's where Isaac Walton popularized fly fishing. And it would be, you know, a full circle moment to do that where fly fishing originated and see what that's like because the streams are beautiful and the little, you know, patches of water that you can go to. And maybe I'm not phrasing the tributaries and body there, but it's a really magical experience from what people have told me who have fished in England and Scotland and just the British Isles. And it looks beautiful and just something, you know, out of a storybook. So I want to try that as well. But Lithuania is not really talked about as a fishing destination. So if I get to have some success when I'm there this summer, I'm hoping I could put it on the map for fly fishing too. There are fly anglers and fly shops that do exist there, but it's just not. So it's kind of like, I don't know if this is a good parallel. So it's like an indie band that you like that is yet to be discovered they're really good they have a lot of potential to be mainstream but they haven't yet really taken off but at the same time you don't want that country or that indie band in this instance in this parallel to necessarily go mainstream because they could lose their cool they could lose their edge right so I don't think Lithuania will ever be like a Paris you know or an England in terms of fly fishing or whatever like western Europe because it's a little different because they have a different slightly language customs are a little I mean it's a Christian country. So it's not like a difficult place for an American angler to go and learn. They speak English. You'll have no trouble, but it's a little off the beaten path. it's a little more secluded. And so things are a little different, but it's kind of like in that indie stage of something yet to be discovered. So I'm hoping I can help expose it without like oversaturating it with influencers or, you know, doing that. Cause right now culturally the country is being bombarded by like influencers, which is kind of cool that people are going there, eating the food, exploring the sites, the attractions. But I want it to be kind of like a secret place or kind of a hidden kind of indie place. So it's not so oversaturated with, with, I don't know what it would be like just losing that edge. So I think there's a potential. And if more people like me, who have some attachment to the country can go and showcase that I think people be like, Whoa, that's cool. I didn't know that. If she's saying this, I trust her opinion, because her family's from there. So having some, you know, proximity or authority could really help. And the EU, I think, I don't know if you've ever fished in Europe, but the EU orients things a little differently. So it's not really clear where you buy a license and how many licenses you have to have. You have to like go through a lot of trouble to find the portal. Like here in the United States, every state has a fishing portal where you buy your license. It tells you what's in season, what's not your crew limit, et cetera. Europe actually is quite behind us. I have not seen any so far in just my initial digging when I was researching out of curiosity. It's a little harder to pinpoint, you know, the license structure, the cost. It's not that expensive. It's like maybe probably the equivalent of what we pay for a day use, maybe a little bit more because it's EU. They charge more. That's just how they are. So I'm going to learn the process through my upcoming experience on that. So I'm hoping one day, back to your original question, I can target trout on the fly or salmon on the fly there, but at least doing some spin and bait casting or maybe the charter we choose, my dad and I choose, we'll have fly fishing as an option. I don't know. A pike on the fly would be really cool. So I will keep you posted on that in terms of what results I have there. But it's an exciting country. And I hope people will put that and the rest of Eastern Europe on their radar because there's a lot of great fishing in these former communist bloc countries, formerly occupied communist bloc countries. And I think just all in general, you know, everyone talks about, I think, you know, Patagonia and going to Buenos Aires and to Argentina. That's on my list, too. Like, I would love to do international travel, but that travel time is a long, long trek to go fly fishing. So I have to be really patient and save a lot of money for that kind of deal. But I feel like Lithuania or Europe, it's a little more within reach and you don't have to go so far off the grid to go fishing. I mean, there's a tributary, a stream, river, almost anywhere in Lithuania. What makes up for a lack of mountains, a lot of river streams and forests or some forests. So it's a really cool kind of hidden gem country. And I hope the listeners check it out and just Google salmon fishing or fly fishing in Lithuania. There's so many videos. You'll find that a lot of people do it actually, too.
Katie
Do you know which species of trout are native to Lithuania? We're actually going to Slovenia in August as well. So we'll be kind of close by. Yeah, around the same time you are. And I know they've got the marble trout, but I don't know anything about Lithuania, really. So do you know what kind of species of Salmonids they have there?
Gabriella
I don't think I can give you a substantive answer at this time, but I'll follow up with you. I don't recall the species because it's not, it's maybe Atlantic. I don't know if it's like close to the sea because they're, you know, anadromous. So they go from the sea to the rivers, vice versa. So I have to double check on that because I don't want to feed any incorrect information to your listeners.
Katie
Yeah, I know you said you weren't targeting trout. So I wasn't surprised that you hadn't like done a ton of research into them. But I'm just curious because I know, you know, I think of brown trout as being from Europe. And now I'm familiar with the marble trout too, kind of like planning that trip. But other than that, like, I don't know a lot of what, you know, is found over there. And I think it's a lot of subspecies of things we know, like, you know, we know of brown trout, but then there's like lots of little micro subspecies of brown trout over there. The same way we might think of cutthroats. That's the impression I get at least where, you know, it's a cutthroat trout if you're not from around here. But if you're from around here, it's, you know, what specific kind of cutthroat trout did you catch? And that's the impression I get of their, like, brown trout species over there that they're, to us, they're brown trout. But to them, they've got all these different little niches around like pockets where they're found.
Gabriella
Yeah, I think in the videos that I saw, it looked to be like a brown trout or brown trout subspecies. And it's so interesting. They're so colorful and unique and different from American trout. And so, yes, I need to research better what subspecies are there. But I mean, here, I don't remember seeing any equivalent perhaps of a rainbow trout. It didn't look like they had any. I think they had brown and brook trout more so, or this marble trout. I'm curious to see in Google and see what that looks like.
Katie
The marble trout, it's kind of hard to describe. I guess it kind of looks the most like a brown trout to me, but you can tell it's not one. But it's got kind of like a similar pattern to it. It's pretty interesting looking, and I can see where the name comes from. It's kind of got that like marbling to it on the side. So yeah, definitely look up a picture of it. I wanted to ask that you've mentioned a couple times now, like, you know, going to shoot a film or shoot a movie. What projects are these that you're working on? Is it like a media-based thing? I know you also have said you worked in conservation, so I don't know if this is for work or if it's like a passion project. Just, you know, tell me more about what these projects are that you're working on.
Gabriella
Yeah, so I have a video series called Conservation Nation with one of my clients, a longtime client that I've had, and I've moved to part-time freelance work. So I do a lot of these videos kind of on the side now outside of my primary job, but there's a lot of overlap, And I can incorporate a lot of my storytelling and filmmaking endeavors into my primary job, as well as like testimony to be like, this is the consequence if you do this, or really input like a sportswoman perspective, you know, when I do policy work, but conservation nation. So we kind of highlight like interesting conservation stories that kind of challenge the narrative sometimes. And I've been very fortunate to have opportunities to incorporate fishing. I've done a lot of fly fishing in these different videos. We've done, like I said, this Alaska, two Alaska reports. one of them is where we featured our salmon fishing. And then, outside of like my video series that I do for a client, I also kind of riff and do my own like video series. I have like a YouTube channel where I do something called like angling, right? So I've documented my red drum Cobia fishing experience. I also created a video stemming from this other, from the Alaska report, just to have of my own to be like, Oh, I fished in Alaska. Here's the different techniques we use the flies, et cetera, et cetera. So I did actually out of my Alaska trip, make a kind of non-work related blog and, and vlog rather, and, just was able to add it to my series. So I'll even like experiment and play around outside of any work. I may not make any money. Maybe I'll make a few cents on YouTube, from doing it. So, you know, professionally and even like not professionally just for hobby. I'm I've become pretty good at like filming and splicing and dicing video for my video series. I have a videographer who takes care of that all for me. And I'll be like, Oh, can I borrow some like B roll that we don't use for, you know, for this Alaska one I want to do? She's like, yeah, definitely no problem. Because it's her footage, and she can use it, however, in addition to our work. And so I kind of when I when I'm able to tackle filming opportunities, you know, professionally for work or outside of my work, just for hobbies, and just to keep up with like video editing and splicing and dicing. I like to do that. I'm actually sitting on a, as we're recording, I'm sitting on a, a bass fishing trip video that I still need to record that I'm a little behind on. And I'm going to be going back to ICAST, which is the fishing, sport fishing trade show. I don't know if you've ever gone. They do have some fly exhibitors as well. They used to be, with the fly fishing, trade association. They broke off for a time And then now they've brought back some fly fishing to ICAST. So there is going to be an element of fly fishing at ICAST this year. It's going to be held in mid-June, the week of, I'm sorry, July, July 15th through July 18th, 19th. And I haven't gone to the show in six, seven years. So I'm excited to return. And my goal out of that show, I'm not going to be fishing necessarily. I'm more so there to cover perhaps the latest in new products, the new product showcase. I want to speak to some friends of mine who work for different brands and companies. and something that's kind of on people's minds in Florida, there's a Florida right to hunt and fish. So a lot of sport anglers, people who do fly fishing are really invested in getting the right to hunt fish and enshrined in their state constitution because they're worried, you know, down the road, some people can come in and change what that looks like, or maybe propose policies that make it harder for you to maintain your outdoor heritage. So they're kind of like trying to protect themselves from any potential future threats. And so I want to talk to some people who will be there about like why Florida fishing or why fishing means so much to these, to us in Florida. So I have like multiple goals and kind of aims with it. I want to go like on their, on the water demo. so I'll, I'll be able to like write and document visually my experience from these different trade shows. So it could, like I said, it could vary from professional stuff. but I don't think I'm going to be doing much of fishing in my upcoming conservation nation reports, but I think for my side hobbies, and for freelance writing and projects where I could still get compensated for my work too. There will be opportunities to film. I have a GoPro, I have a Sony Alpha. I, you know, smartphone is really good too. It can capture great imagery and footage. So I have a lot of tools in my arsenal to be a one woman show and interview people on the ground at these conventions and trade shows. So I love it. Like I don't do it as much as I used to when I first started doing outdoor writing and opining on these conservation issues, But I still get to fit in a little bit, even with my now kind of changed schedule and going back to a nine to five where, like I said, I have tinges and elements of conservation in my work, but I don't necessarily focus on fisheries except for maybe my podcasting or freelance writing.
Katie
Yeah, that's a great way to transition to the last thing I wanted to talk about, which is your podcast. I know you've got more than one. And I know that one is maybe more of like, you know, you kind of own it and run everything about it. And then at least one other one you just host. And that sounds like the one that that's the one that I was on or will be on. But tell me how you got started with these. You know, how did you start the podcast? How did you get chosen to host this other one? And what are the topics behind them?
Gabriella
Podcasting is really interesting. So I don't think I got into the game late. So I launched my podcast in September of 2018. So that is going to be how many years ago? Six years ago this year, going into my seventh season of the program. And I'm crazy and I've published like over 400 episodes, but I really wanted to not miss like certain news updates. So that's why I have so many podcast episodes. Sometimes I'd record a couple a week and, you know, across six years. And if you do multiple a month, you can add up and do a lot. So I now kind of have a more spread out schedule where I'm recording clusters very similar to you so I can spread out my content. I try not to publish more than two episodes a week because I don't know if you saw this, Apple and I think all the podcast providers had like done something to tweak how the listens and the downloads are documented. And I think there were a lot of spam lists. And so we all probably saw a drop off of listeners a few months ago. Now I see my listenership rebuilding again, and populating to more people. So it's, it's, it's, you know, even being in podcasting for long, You know, they always change or tweak something or my hosting provider changes. And the reason why I started District of Conservation is not only just to opine on politics, but I felt like several other things were missing. I wasn't seeing many women opining on outdoor stuff, whether hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, anything. So I wanted it to be kind of a unique space for women I know to come onto the program too. And I speak to women and men. It's not exclusively just women for this one. Sports Women Show, of course, is just for women, of course, because there's a need. and kind of a niche there, trying to appeal to women and have established ladies talk about how they've made it in the industry or how they've had success even as a hobbyist and offer some advice for women coming up, you know, whether they want to work in the industry or not. But District of Conservation kind of spins off of, I live close to Washington, D.C. And this D.C., it's not a state, but it's a territory. It's the District of Columbia. And because DC is where a lot of federal policy emanates from, I was like, I should create like something that riffs off of Washington, DC or District of Columbia. So District of Conservation sounded really catchy at the time. And I guess I'm pretty good at coming up with names, concocting names. I don't know, maybe from my branding and PR time. So I like to be creative and think of things that roll the tongue that are not too long, but are easy to search and then have some sort of tie in thematically with what I'm talking about. So people don't know this, maybe who are listening to the show, if they don't work in policy as extensively as I do, but Washington DC under the department of interior, there are several laws. There's one that's called, the Pittman Robertson, which relates to hunting and then Dingle Johnson, which relates more specifically to fly fishing. So anytime you buy a license, you buy tackle, you buy boating fuel, et cetera, et cetera, relating to fishing, all of those monies are collected under this law through the department of interior and disperse two states, all 50 states, according to the number of licenses and the number of, I think, land acreage, if I'm not mistaken for that. I forget. I always forget what the second bit is, but it's number of licenses and then the territory, I guess, if I'm not mistaken. And so people don't know that connection, that decisions from the federal government can ultimately affect them in the states. And we do see that a lot frequently. We have seen some attacks on recreational fishing, onshore, offshore. unfortunately, that maybe fly anglers don't pay attention to. But I still, you know, try to keep abreast with what's happens, you know, with different things and how regulations can unfortunately displace us from fishing, whether it's offshore, near shore, onshore, and what have you. So outside of, you know, you know, exposing kind of bad policy or faulty policy. I just made that connection. I was trying to explain to people that there's, you know, this is what you have to be mindful of. But I'm not just focusing on what happens in the federal government too, because even with the impacts on the states, I also try to draw it back to, you know, what happens in the states could ultimately affect what happens nationally. We sometimes see restrictions in California. They put some restrictions on recreational fishing on the coast and some other states had looked to mimic that. And I didn't feel very pleased to see that. And so sometimes you can watch what happens in the states more on the hunting side than I would say the fishing side. But sometimes states can pass bad policies, which displace anglers from the water. and that would be very bad. So I would always kind of follow like what happens in the States too, and some poor management decisions or poor policies, bad policies rather that are passed there. And so I didn't want it just to be like me opining on politics or me opining on policy or doing interviews. I also wanted it to be people who listen and I have some very interesting listeners. I'm told I have some congressmen, I have some secretaries of, you know, cabinet secretaries, previously federal. I have a lot of like state level cabinet secretaries that follow me too and listen to the podcast. So I know important people listen. So I have to be, you know, very professional and be mindful of that and cater a little bit to them. But I have a lot of listeners from outside of Washington, DC, too, because people are like, I'm very fascinated with what's happening. Because at the time when I launched the podcast, there wasn't just like anything specific about policy. But I did not want to be hamstrung by just talking about policy, because that can bore people. I don't want to be overly partisan all the time. Sometimes I have to be for certain issues. But I don't want it to be like a partisan podcast per se, or the podcast I said that we're opining on politics, they didn't really, I would say, relate to my definition of conservation, which is the wise use of management, the traditional use of conservation, some kind of lean words towards preservation. And that's not conservation. And so I was like, I want to formulate and put out a truly conservationist podcast. Some people may not agree with my thinking, they may not agree with what I talk about, but I try to keep it there. And I have people who may differ from me politically who are like, I appreciate what you put. I may not agree fully or wholly with your statements, but it's, you know, I'm concerned about this policy. I didn't know. And I was like, yeah, it just happens that way. And beyond that, to, to, to not be so stuck on the politics, I just interview people. I've interviewed people who come from a different worldview from me, different industry. Like I've talked to one guy who had like a discovery plus outdoor show. He was so fascinating to speak to was a few years ago at the height of COVID. So I've had people like that come on my program. surprisingly people, you know, I've had like members of Congress, senators, I've spoken to some cabinet officials, no presidents or anyone of that sort, quite yet, maybe in the future, who knows. but I I've talked to some pretty distinguished folks, you know, and, and state lawmakers and, and state officials too. So I try to get like a, a reading into like why they're so passionate and not just have them opine like on policy and, be kind of boring. I'm like, okay, you work in these policy areas. You have to like what you're overseeing, right? And so they will be comfortable, kind of open up to me and be like, I love to fish. I love to hunt. I like to do this. And this is my favorite memory. There's one congressman out of Virginia who has a fishing Friday post. And so he always talks about the wall mounts. One of my favorite people I've ever interviewed, and he's an avid fisherman. And he just talks about, you know, an interesting fish he caught that's mounted in his congressional office. So I like when politicians can be a little more down to earth and talk like that. And I don't even just interview simply just politicians. I've interviewed friends who've like run really cool nonprofits, influencers who I think are positive role models for the industry, fly fishing industry. I've talked to people within fly fishing, outside of fly fishing, conventional fishing. I've talked to people from like American sport fishing association. So I try to cover the gamut of, you know, people who are up and coming too, cause I don't want to just be just a host who's like, Oh, I only want to talk to like high profile people. No, I think that's so bad. And what if it's like a really unique storyteller and you could be the vehicle from which people can discover and listen to them. I love when I can pay it forward and help someone tell their story. I've been in their position before when I was starting my career early on. And I know how hard it is to break out and get your story there. So I like to find compelling stories of people who I believe have a potential to really positively impact fly fishing, for instance, or some other adjacent outdoor activity. And I love being a vehicle because I can share it to my, cumulatively, 100,000 followers that I have all across social media, different platforms and just get people to be aware of someone unique. So I like balancing, you know, the high profile guests with kind of the meat and grit about, you know, policy discussions with conversations with friends. I've had my dad on the show, you know, to talk about why did you get me involved in these activities, stuff like that. So I like to be well-rounded. The name has, of course, a purpose to it. It's like I said, a riff off of District of Columbia, but it's so much more than just being a DC-based or DC area based show. It's so much more because like I said, everything that happens here may not stop in this area. It could happen and affect a state. It could, you know, state stuff can happen and affect what happens nationally or trends or, and I'm kind of this person where I get very concerned about things that happen. I want to be concerned about things that happen outside of my backyard, outside of Virginia, because I feel really bad for friends who lose access to fishing grounds or to hunting grounds. And it would be sad, you know, we have to look at patterns and, you know, death by a thousand cuts. If you lose some ability to go fishing here, what's to say that that doesn't come to your backyard? So I like to have it be all encompassing like that with that. And Sports Women Show, that's a more relatively new project. And my good friend, Cody McLaughlin, who's really kind of this podcast whiz was like, Hey, do you want to work together on a podcast? We got to collaborate more officially. I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. What should we do? And what should we, what should we make this all about? And so it's just been so fun. I've had you on the program and we either, we either have released your episode at the time of our recording right now, or you already will have been on the show. And so it's, it's still kind of in its infancy. It's released on a biweekly basis. It's a little more low key. I record episodes and clusters. And so I'm not having to overstress or like do all the editing and post doc editing and, and processing like I do for district of conservation. it's a little more hands-free for me. I let Cody handle all the logistics there. I just record the episode. I make sure to have two different tracks of, of each individual guest and he splices and dices and takes it off my hands. And it's been fun. Like when we first launched, we were, we had cracked the wilderness charts, I think within the top 200 or so. And that's just a hard place to crack. I don't know if your show has ever cracked that, but it's become the wilderness category has become so saturated. I really don't care if we crack it. It's a nice added bonus if it does. But it's just the reception to sportswomen show, much like District of Conservation has been super interesting. I think it's a little different because I try not to insert politics into that one where in District of Conservation, I will talk conservation policy or politics. But this one, I try to keep politics free because it's just much more enjoyable just to have women tell their stories and get them animated and passionate and about recounting something like I pressed you to recount some of your memory memories of fly fishing or some kind of memorable moment in your fly fishing journey. And I think we hear guys do that. We don't hear women do that typically. So, or we, we try to do it in a more streamlined fashion. Men can talk for hours. I'm sorry. They say women are chatty. Outdoor men can talk for hours and go on tangents about their fishing or hunting excursions. So I'm like, I cannot sit down for three hours. I mean, I could if someone asked me to, but I would never subject anyone to three hours of a podcast. That's just too much to deal with.
Katie
Yeah, fair enough. I wanted to ask about the District of Conservation podcast. Would that be, is it set up in a way, either title-wise or show notes or whatever, to make it easy for somebody to find out about what's going on in their state? Or is it kind of like you get who you get, you know, based on who's available and who you've reached out to? You know, it may be that you haven't covered Colorado because you just haven't had the opportunity to talk to somebody who's, you know, well-versed in our policy here, for example. And I understand that you may be more focused on kind of your backyard, even though you said you like to spread out. You know, it's easy to gravitate toward the people around you because they're right there. But, you know, if I wanted to learn about what's going on with Colorado policy, would it be easy enough for me to, you know, search for your episodes and see like, oh, she had one about Colorado, you know, in the last three months or, you know, how is that set up? And is it a good way to kind of get live news about your state or is it more kind of like national and, you know, your state may or may not come up very often, depending on where you live?
Gabriella
I think I did talk about my Colorado trip once about the Fraser River trip right behind the Safeway I was telling you about. So I believe I did recount that. And I have touched upon Colorado policy more so on the hunting side because it's just been ground zero this year, especially.
Katie
That's actually what I'm more interested in.
Gabriella
Yeah. Yeah. And actually, you can come back a few episodes. There is actually, yes, I did with, it's more related to like mountain lion hunting or management.
Katie
I know what you're talking about.
Gabriella
Yeah. Yeah. I know it's a controversial subject. But I spoke to one of the people there who was involved in that fight. And he was explaining to me that I think it could have some implications not only for hunting. I don't know if they would use that kind of like ballot initiative language to maybe even restrict phishing. Who knows? Because it's statutory. So it would perhaps, you know, have some wide sweeping effects there. But I have touched upon Colorado. I think I don't know how feasible it is to search like keywords. I think if you type in my podcast, you type in Colorado or any state. I haven't covered every single state, but I feel like I've covered a lot more than a typical podcaster in this space would. and also I think an episode will depend on what's like timely or what's newsworthy. So I'll be like, okay, I want to be like right on the cusp of this story that's just breaking or that was very much in the news cycle and have my spin on it while it's still current. State policy can kind of be like that too. If something broke out in the States, like I covered an Alaska story recently and just to me, I was like, this is crazy what's happening here. And just the statement I was not reassured by, it was an Alaska story where there was some snafu about an American flag, you know, on public lands and public lands, you're allowed to display the flag. but the superintendent had reportedly told one of the contractors who was rebuilding the highway to remove it. not a very good look on the national park service, unfortunately. And so like when stuff like that occurs, yes, a lot of States will be covered. I may have focused on Vermont. I may have focused on some other States. So if I haven't covered a state yet, I have no doubt I will cover some state very soon. Sometimes not positively, but a lot of the times I try to look for like interesting stuff or I've had people from different regions. Like I've had a lot of people, I feel like from Colorado on my show. So Colorado does not get ignored. I would love to have, you know, maybe for that, if you want to come on and talk about fly fishing in Colorado, you know, just whatever. You're more than welcome to come on that one too. If something interesting happens or seasons get shortened or some policy change happens, heaven forbid. Because I know people are very sensitive to that in the ability to fly fish. there'd be a lot of very angry, upset people. Yeah. there. So yeah, I feel like, you know, a lot of stuff I cover actually, believe it or not, a lot of stuff from the mountain West. I have done that. especially when it comes to apex predators, like grizzly bears and wolves. it's just always a very interesting topic to discuss and have experts to come on. but I don't think any topic or any state is, is out of the realm of possibility to be discussed. I think it's just what I want to respond to. I can't cover every single story, unfortunately, because I don't have a team. It's just me covering the story. But I am fascinated by what happens in the state because like there could be a slow week in DC or Virginia. Like we don't have any crazy threats to hunting and fishing here. So I haven't had to record anything, you know, that's concerning to me whatsoever. So it's, it's good. And like, I don't want to have to talk about what happens in Virginia unless if it's like a sit down with my governor or if it's a sit down with one of our cabinet secretaries, I'm friends with a few of them. So I've wanted to bring them on to talk about like, what are you guys doing on the conservation front? So that's like what I think I can look forward to in the coming months, like from my backyard in particular, but as it relates to DC, there'll be a lot of stuff. I think there's the farm bill, there's some conservation programs. There's some federal rulemaking that'll affect fishing, whether it's on national wildlife refuges, if they ban lead tackle, or if it's relating to vessel speed rule changes on the Atlantic ocean covering Maine to Florida, coastal Georgia. So there will be some fishing policy that will affect a lot of people, not so much fly anglers, but maybe some saltwater fly anglers too. I think actually that vessel speed rule could potentially impact people from that. So no story is, is out of the realm of possibility or, or I would say something I wouldn't have attention to. I, I, I want to be given tips too. Like, it's just hard for me to, to follow everything really closely. And so I always welcome my listeners to send me tips about like, this is a crazy story, or there's some restriction or prohibition, or this is some really cool story, you know, some positive news from one of the states where someone caught this like record breaking fish or landed something like a catch of a lifetime, or maybe they got onto their board, they were appointed to the board, and they want to talk about their position for the commission. So it's, there's a lot to cover. And so I wouldn't put past, you know, covering stuff in the future. But I have talked about Colorado.
Katie
Yeah, you mentioned Florida earlier and their constitutional right to hunt and fish. And I think there's a similar thing in Utah, and I'm sure many states have it. I don't think Colorado does. And that does worry me. I really want something like that on the books. Because like you said, with this mountain lion thing, we don't need to get into that here because it's not the subject of this podcast. But as someone who does not mountain lion hunt, but worries what comes next after that happens, if it does happen. Luckily, I don't think fishing has really taken much of a hit in Colorado. Fishing seems like the less offensive thing to the general public. I don't think most people care about fish getting their lips ripped. But yeah, I really wish that we had something like that to kind of codify it and say like this will exist in perpetuity. Just because as a hunter and an angler, even though I'm not worried about fishing too much, you know, the hunting. I feel like that leads, one thing that leads to the next. And then for all you know, maybe fishing is next. And the only thing I'm really wanting in Colorado for fishing is a better stream access law. We have really terrible, terrible stream access laws. And for a state that really brings in a lot of tourism dollars for their natural beauty and, you know, tourism for fishing, you'd think they'd be a little bit friendlier to the anglers coming here to spend money. But that's just, that's my pipe dream. That's what I hope for someday.
Gabriella
Well, maybe you can get involved in the policy fight to make that a reality.
Katie
What does that look like for the average person who wants to voice their opinion? I know there's like calling your representatives, but is there anything beyond that? If you say, hey, I want better stream access laws, what would you recommend for somebody?
Gabriella
I think for fly anglers, groups like Trout Unlimited, I think they often work for stream access or maybe just a general sportsman group that also covers fishing too. I think just looking in your backyard to see who would want to do that. I bet you people have opined on that issue and have tried to work with lawmakers to enhance access. So just going to your state legislature in Denver, whenever there is like lobby day, even just to make the introductions, to get to know who your lawmakers are or the people who will effectuate policy and natural resources. If that's such a big concern and something that you and other fly anglers would want to see changed or improved upon, just simply like establishing contact, seeing kind of the lay of the land, what happens there, seeing if any bills get proposed, maybe befriend or get connected to a potential bill sponsor, see who's a chairman, see who's on a committee who would be open to this idea. So like we as sportsmen and women, we have the ability to actually impact legislation very positively to our advantage, especially in the flying wing world or in the fishing realm, I would say, because people respond to sportsmen. They know the conservation dollars. There's millions of dollars definitely going to Colorado each year from fishing. And if they lose that sort of continual funding mechanism, they know that it's going to have a hit on restoring species, maintaining habitat, improving access, what have you. So they know that they have to keep the cycle going. And if this stream access is a barrier and it's going to deter people from going fishing down the road, they should be worried about it. They claim to be conservationists, but if they kind of turn a blind eye to that and they're like, no, we don't want to work on this, you have to question them if they're truly conservationists or really environmentalists. and they don't want to have anglers. And what you had said too, obviously, this is not a fishing or hunting podcast. But if people I think fly anglers and anglers have to watch what happens in hunting, because I have seen animal rights activists and people who don't even like fishing, we see groups like PETA and others who just really hate fishing too. I wouldn't put past certain environmental preservationist groups to say, okay, we got rid of hunting, let's go after fishing next. I know it kind of sounds like crazy and paranoid to even think that, but there are some people out there who do not like anglers either. We're just a bigger, stronger, cohesive group than hunters, unfortunately, in terms of like where we're harder to penetrate because there's so many billions of dollars. We have more participants than hunting does. So they don't feel the need to target us, but they do through other types of rulemaking. Like I said, a vessel speed rule that's soon to be finalized, prohibiting lead tackle on public lands. You know, there's little death by a thousand cuts here and there that are already taking shape with respect to anglers and maybe some states, I think, what is it? Is it California has a right to fish? Rhode Island does too. But no, I think even anglers have to be like, yeah, supporting a right to hunt fish amendment is just the easiest thing, non-controversial thing you can do. You don't lose property rights. You don't encourage poaching. It's very clear like what those amendments say and do and stipulate, like the conditions they stipulate because it, even if you, you know, even if you have that, like if you break the law, if you break wildlife conservation law, you're still going to face penalties, for anything you do that the amendment doesn't make you immune to any penalty. If you were to commit a bad act or an illegal act, it's just an extra, extra buffer to ensure that you don't lose this activity because there are people who will, if they are given an opportunity, they will target fishing. Like I said, it's already taking place a little bit federally. I'm worried it could trickle to the States because they say that like hunters, anglers have an outdo outsized influence in fishing and conservation policy. So I wouldn't put past, excuse me, some preservationists to say like anglers are not our friends either, unless they think like us. So, and I know fly fishing is kind of divided in, in a little bit in the camps there, you know, politics and styles and do you want to tackle incrementalism or whatnot, or we're territorial. We don't really want to care about what happens in this other policy realm with an adjacent activity, but they will come for fishing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but ultimately fishing could be targeted. It's done culturally, like I said, with PETA saying that fish have feelings and eating them or catching them, catch and release. They even are more offended by catch and release than people eating fish, which is funny to me.
Katie
I mean, I can see torturing the fish. I can almost understand that argument. Not that, I mean, I do catch and release the majority of the time for one reason or another, But I do actually kind of understand that argument of like catching releases, arguably, it's arguably more torturous than killing and eating a fish for sustenance. But that's beside the point because I don't agree. I don't agree with that viewpoint in general. But that's the one thing I can kind of say, yeah, I see where you're coming from a little bit. But yeah, I hate the overuse of the slippery slope argument that people make. But in some cases, I think it's valid. And this seems like one of those cases where, you know, once you get one, no one's ever happy. You know, they never get one thing passed and then that's it. It's what's on to the next thing. And yeah, I agree that fishing doesn't seem like it's really under threat right now, but it could be someday. And that's not a time I want to get to. I don't want to have to worry about, you know, losing something that's such a big part of my life. But just to wrap up, where can people find you if they want to learn more about this on your podcast? I know the Sportswomen one as well is not as policy focused, but if they want to find this one or the Sportswomen show, where can they find you?
Gabriella
Instagram, Twitter, Facebook denoted all by blue check marks that I've had for several years because of my journalism work. I wasn't special, but it was just nice to be rewarded with that. YouTube also as well, District of Conservation, the Sportswomen show. I have a website, GabriellaHoffman.com, where like all these different venues can be found. So I'm very easy to find. I'm not the actress who starred in Uncle Buck. So when you type my name in Google, if you type my name in Google, you'll see that I differ from her a lot with our interest areas. And she's a little older than me. But I have enough of content populated where people will know like it's Gabriella, the sportswoman, you know, the avid angler. So it's very easy to find me. I'm open to any questions, any podcast suggestions, or just answering any questions people have about public policy, fisheries, things of that sort. I do talk to a lot of people in this space on the saltwater side, freshwater side. I talk to people a lot in fly fishing too. I'm very connected. So anyway, I could be a resource to your listeners. I would be more than happy to do so.
Katie
Well, that'd be great because I feel like most people I talk to are really passionate about fishing, but most of us don't have really a foot in the door when it comes to policy or politics. So, you know, meeting somebody that actually can't answer those tough questions when, you know, like I don't really understand how a lot of policy happens and I'm sure a lot of people don't either. So having that resource, I think it'll be great for people to, you know, have somebody to ask their questions to and I just really appreciate you taking the time for this and people will be hearing us on each other's shows soon we'll be doing a an episode swap so you'll hear me on your show and folks will hear you on my show and just a great way to lift all boats. Rising tide, so thank you
Gabriella
exactly no I love the crossover and I'm so glad Cody introduced us thank you for the time I really appreciate it
Katie
all right that's a wrap thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, you can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode.
Gabriella
Take care, everybody.

Note:

These transcripts were created using AI to help make the podcast more accessible to all listeners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing, or anyone who prefers to read rather than listen.

While I’ve reviewed each transcript to correct obvious errors, they may not be 100% accurate. In particular, moments with overlapping speech or unclear audio may not be transcribed word-for-word. However, every effort has been made to ensure that the core content and meaning are accurately represented.

Thank you for your understanding, and I hope these transcripts help you enjoy the podcast in the way that works best for you.

Katie Kusold

Ep 136: Fly Fishing Adventures and Conservation Policy, with Gabriella Hoffman

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Ep 136: Fly Fishing Adventures and Conservation Policy, with Gabriella Hoffman

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Ep 137: Backpacking, Fishing with Dogs, and the Utah Cutt Slam, with Zig Peacock

Ep 135: Declining Salmon Populations and the Salmon Wars Project, with Cody McLaughlin

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