Ep 129: Choosing the Right Technique, with Charles Humphrey III
Charles Humphrey III is a Grammy Award–winning bluegrass musician who has played with the Steep Canyon Rangers and, currently, the Songs From the Road Band. He is also the owner of Beast Coast Anglers, a fishing guide service covering Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia. In this episode, we start by talking a bit about his music career and what it’s like to be a professional songwriter and bluegrass artist. Then, we dive into various fishing techniques including indicator nymphing, tightline nymphing, streamer fishing, dry-dropper rigs, double-dry rigs, and dry-emerger setups. We talk about how to fish each effectively and when Charles would use one technique over another.
Website: Beast Coast Anglers
Instagram: @beastcoastanglers
Facebook: /beastcoastanglersflyfishing
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Katie
You're listening to the Fish Untamed Podcast, your home for fly fishing the backcountry. This is episode 129 with Charles Humphrey III on choosing the right technique. Well, I start every episode by getting a background on my guests and how they got into the outdoors and into fishing. So I know we're going to dive into music as well, but I would love to start by just hearing how you got into fly fishing.
Charles
Sure. I grew up in eastern North Carolina, fishing on the Outer Banks, saltwater and bass ponds, freshwater and bought a fly rod for bass fishing. Went to college in the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill from 1995 to 1999, where I started a band. I was kind of the guy from the coast. There was a guy from the Piedmont and a guy from the mountains. And he was a fly fisher then. And as I music, it, it, led me to Western North Carolina, where I moved my home in 1999, Asheville, North Carolina. And that's when I started fishing the waters of Western North Carolina and traveling all over the country, playing music and fishing wherever we went. So it was kind of, a friend from college that really got me into fly fishing as we were traveling the country and then just you know fishing here in western North Carolina and then I had I worked for another outfitter for a year where we specialized in tight lining Euro nymphing contact nymphing they call it all different things but that was a unique that experience and I'm thankful for that but that being able to hone in on that as a specialized craft. And then I branched out into my own guide service and work with a great team of guides. And we do all kinds of fishing, drift boat fishing, wade fishing, public water, private water, in various styles and work in Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia. So that's pretty quick. Am I talking too fast? It seems like a lot of information.
Katie
No, you're good. Um, I know we'll come back to, the fishing cause I do want to hear, I know we're going to talk about different techniques and things like that, but I want to hear for a little bit about your music career because someone else gave me your name, but I've been listening to some of your music, and it's really up my alley. I really like your style of music through the different bands you've been in. But kind of walk me through how that started. How did you get into music, and what's that progression been like?
Charles
I played in middle school, violin, and switched upright bass. I didn't play in college. No, no, I didn't play in high school. I was more into sports, but then in fishing and then college, I signed up for classical lessons because I had this dream. I was playing in Carnegie Hall and it was coming all back to me. And I had an opportunity to tour nationally with an actor, comedian, Steve Martin, with one of my bands. And our fifth gig was like in Carnegie Hall. It was the dream come true. I was like, I can't believe this dream came true. And I've always co-written and songwritten songs that have landed in various places and television shows and played in many countries and venues. I'm very thankful for those experiences. Songs from the Road Band is the band that I've been leading since 2006. And we're about to leave for Florida this week, but we play all over the country. And we've got six studio albums out. There's a great community of musicians here in Western North Carolina, too. So that's kind of where my music's at. You know, I run a full-time fly fishing guide service and tour with a national band. And they go hand in hand because when I'm gone, the other guides get plenty of work, which I'm sure they're thankful of because most of the music gigs land on the weekends, which tends to be when a lot of recreational fishermen want to fish.
Katie
I assume that being on tour is kind of a, you know, you're kind of beholden to the schedule of like when you book shows. So how does that work out with being a guide? Do you just kind of book clients around that? Or is there a more advanced way that you schedule these together?
Charles
It's changed throughout my career. So I'm in my 40s now. In my 20s, we'd go out to Colorado for six weeks and we'd have like 10 gigs, you know. So we were always off. We were just fishing and camping and it was great. But as you get older, you can't really do that. But some of those experiences ended up in songs like Travel and Show and some other things. But it's funny how the value of time gets more valuable as you get older. You know, it's like, well, I've only got this much time. Am I going to be with my family? Am I going to be at work? Am I going to be in fish? Am I going to be fishing? And how do you balance all those things? And so that's it's interesting to think about. So now with the band, we're all we're all just great friends. and we go out. When we go out, we get paid what we deserve, and we have a great time, and we're happy to see each other, and we create wonderful music. We spread joy through music. That's always been my big thing is spreading joy. People spend money to come out and see you play. They want to escape for a while. They don't want to worry about anything. They want to be entertained, so that's spreading joy, and I think fly fishing does the same thing. You can be out by yourself just escaping in nature all you're thinking about is where when it where's that next fish at what's that next fish going to eat you know you're thinking about that fish and time just flies by so that's a parallel between music and fishing but to answer your question now how do I manage music and fly fishing a lot of our gigs now are on the weekends and the people that want to fish on the weekends get with one of our other fantastic team members and professional guides and the people that want to fish specifically with me. A lot of times it'll be during the week or we'll plan it far enough in a head or I'll tell them what weekdays I do have open that it works that way.
Katie
Okay.
Charles
So it works out well for everyone.
Katie
Now, do you find that each activity keeps you sane in the other one? I'm just thinking, I used to do some guiding and I loved it, but by the end of the summer, I would feel kind of burnt out. I didn't really want to be taking clients to the same place again for the hundredth time in a row. But I can see that being like nice to know that you've got, you know, one thing going on the weekends that's, you know, a passion of yours and then being able to switch back to fishing. Does it keep you like still interested in both of those being able to switch back and forth and not dive too deep into just one thing?
Charles
It does. You can burn out on either one. And a lot of times we always consciously go out and tour Idaho and Montana in September because that's where I want the tour to end. And that's the end of the guide season for people out there. And out West, a lot of times you are taking people to the same place every day because there's a couple of rivers out there and there's not a lot of variety. I can see that these people are kind of burned out, even though it's wonderful. Here, being based in Asheville, North Carolina, and working in Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia, we actually have a lot of variety in the experiences that we offer. So in that sense, we don't get burned out as quick. It's not like we're going to the same place every day or fishing in the same style every day. And so that kind of keeps it fresh.
Katie
Oh, that's really nice. And how different are the different states? Like, I assume you're kind of in the corner where they all meet there. But, you know, is there a big distinction between the fishing in those three states? Or are they pretty similar, you know, terrain-wise, species-wise, things like that?
Charles
Well, I can only speak to the stretches of water that I work on. In general, all three states have water cold enough to support trout and are in the mountains. So primarily in Georgia, I'm working on private waters, which offer a private experience, which some people enjoy. It's a good way to get practice landing big trout. In North Carolina, we work on private and public. In Tennessee, mostly public waters. And they have some excellent tailwaters, which are a great resource to fish year-round. some of the waters here locally in North Carolina will get too hot in the summers and a lot of the fish population will suffer because of that. And then the experiences in Georgia, that shuts down in the summer for the same reason they don't want to stress out the fish.
Katie
And is it just the summer that, you know, you have closures like that or, or I guess voluntary to, you know, you're just trying not to stress the fish. Like, can you fish through the winter, I guess is what I'm asking.
Charles
You can fish all winter long because we don't get harsh winters and big freezes and snow. Winter is actually my favorite time to fish. There are more big fish around and there are a lot less anglers on the water. There are some certain sections of waters that will close during spawning seasons to protect the spawning areas. Usually November 1st until February 1st. It's usually closed for about three months or maybe, yeah, something like that, three or four months, which is great for the fish population. I'm in full support of that. But that's only certain sections of certain rivers. So there's definitely places you can fish all year long.
Katie
Yeah, it's got to be nice having three different states with three different, slightly different regulations. So, you know, maybe a river over here closes. But, you know, if that's in one state, then you go across the border and they might not necessarily have the exact same date structure. So it sounds like it might be kind of nice to just, you always have something that's open. You always have something that's available to take people out.
Charles
Yeah, you really do. Even in the summertime when things heat up, a lot of people like to fly fish or smallmouth bass, which is, we have some guides that specialize in that. And it can be very exciting. A two pound smallmouth bass, in my opinion, fights about like a four or five pound trout.
Katie
What other species do you go for? Is it mostly trout and smallmouths, or do you have other ones as well?
Charles
It's mostly trout, probably then smallmouth. There is a musky population around that some people target. I myself have not gone off the deep end. I just don't think I need another hobby, but we do have some guides that offer that experience. And those things look like beasts. I'm sure it's a lot of fun.
Katie
Yeah, I don't usually think of muskies being like in the southeast. Do you know how far south they stretch?
Charles
I know there is a large population here in western North Carolina in our rivers. Beyond that, I don't know. Like I say, I've not saw them as frequently as I have trout.
Katie
Yeah, no worries. When I think of muskies, I think of like Minnesota, Wisconsin, you know, that kind of upper Midwest area. Like big lake stuff and stuff like that.
Charles
Yeah, these are river musky and they're crazy looking.
Katie
Oh, that's really cool. A couple more questions on the songwriting before we really dive into the fishing. I wanted to hear kind of about that process. Like, you know, writing songs for, you know, various different bands, you're working with different band members. And I don't know how much of the writing you do versus, you know, other band members. But what is that process like? And do you get any inspiration from fishing? Do you find that songwriting is pretty detached from that process? Or just kind of like go into the weeds and tell me how that works. Because I haven't met a lot of songwriters.
Charles
Sure, no problem. For me, I carry a list of titles on my phone. It could be something that you just said, I don't meet many songwriters. That might be a great song. I don't even have to put that on the list. And then I'll come back to it when I get into a co-writing session. I like to work while my son's at school because I know I'm going to be home. I'm not going to be on the river because I probably have to pick my son from school. So like 10 a.m. on a Monday or Tuesday is my sweet spot. And I've got a list of writers that I've worked with for a long time. And then I have new writers that I'm constantly meeting that we have something in common and we want to write something for their band or my band or think we might pair well together. So I encourage the writers to start with as little as possible. Just bring that title or a little bit of music. That way you're not so far down the road that you've already done something you don't want to change. Then as we go, we kind of trust each other to edit out the bad ideas, which may lead to good ideas. You know, you really have to expose yourself and be honest to this other person and trust your co-writer. I like to develop a course based off our title or idea and kind of the words and the music. Sometimes they kind of come at the same time and then we'll write the verses to support the course. And then at that point, if there's something we haven't said yet, we may need a bridge. But, you know, if there's no river or nothing to say, you don't need a bridge. And for me, that's kind of the quick version of it. Like start with as little as possible, do it in real time and trust your co-writers. And I've been accused of being a frying pan writer, which isn't a bad thing. I really like working on a pressure. I like doing it in the moment. But there's other people that are crop writers and they like to stew on things and go back and forth and change a bunch of stuff. And I've done that too, but I prefer to work in the moment with people that I match up well with. You know, some people are great with melody and strong lead singers and other people are great with lyrics. And some people do both. And as you write with different co-writers, your roles will change depending on who you're working with. But I really enjoy it. And, you know, I think it just gives you two sets of first instincts and you're creating something out of nothing. And then all of a sudden you've got a song and it could grow out, go out into the world and grow up and become an adult song one day.
Katie
Do you ever have songs that don't pan out? Do you find that every idea that you start with, you eventually come to a conclusion of what it should be? Or have there been any songs that something pops into your head and you get, I don't know, maybe half a chorus in and it just kind of fizzles out and you just kind of throw it in the trash and start over?
Charles
I think you'll usually, after doing this song, we usually get to completion. It may go on the shelf or in an email folder and not see the light of day again, but we usually at least get through it. And I think any songwriter you talk to will have some kind of comment along the lines as you've got to, you know, write as many as you can to get to the good ones. You know, I think you're always learning something by writing with somebody else, just like you're always learning something when you're on the water fly fishing. You never stop learning. Right. And just the more the more time you put in it, the more time you dedicate to your craft, whether it be songwriting or fishing, the more you're going to learn and hopefully the more efficient and effective you'll be at getting your desired results.
Katie
And do you have any songs that have come in like a different order? I know you mentioned that, you know, you usually start with the title, you know, something that catches your ear or something, and then you kind of work from there. But have you ever had something come to you that's like, you know, the melody comes first or the chorus comes first and you just know that and you kind of have to build around it? Or is it pretty standard that it follows the same the same pattern each time no there are exceptions to the rule
Charles
I'm a firm believer and there's no wrong way to write a song you know and just because something's a rule too I like to break it I just think you should just know the rule before you break it some people I write with we'll write the the whole all the words and it'll be done and we haven't even talked about the music yet I have one writer in in mind that we didn't and that can be effective or other times we will have the music first and I'm like all right hum that melody to me oh wait okay that's that's leading me to some ideas like I've got a good friend who carries around a paper quarter and melodies come to him and he puts down these melodies then we kind of go through the melody and put words to that so there's no wrong way to write a song I was just kind of describing how I typically work
Katie
do you ever get like a form of writer's block or do you find that once you're kind of in the flow, you can kind of get through a song?
Charles
I think we can usually get through it. I mean, writer's block, there's nothing worse than being in a room with somebody and no idea is coming and you're looking at each other.
Katie
Yeah.
Charles
You know, if that happens too many times, you're probably not going to write with that person again. But then there's some people that you're just so excited to work with or, you know, be prepared. You know, when you come to a writing session, like I've done some research, Come with four or five good ideas that you think legitimately might be good. Show up on time. Show up in good spirits. Have your coffee if you need it or make sure you're not hungry. Get the calories to the brain and just hope for the best.
Katie
In regard to burnout, I know we talked about burnout in terms of fishing and music, but I've experienced burnout with fishing before. I've never experienced it with music. Does it get old to play the same songs over and over again? I've got a friend who's in a band and I've always wondered, like I go to the shows every so often. I have a great time hearing the songs that I like, but I'm like, man, they're playing so many shows in between the ones I'm listening to that if I were them, I would hate all these songs by now. Like, do you have that or what is that like to play the same handful of songs over and over again that, you know, all your fans love because they don't hear them every day. But you might be hearing them like multiple times a week between practices and shows and things like that. What's that like?
Charles
Yeah, that's a good question. The fans have favorite songs and those are the songs they expect. And I think as you get more famous or older in life, you can't get away from that. I mean, you look at these classic rock bands, you know, if somebody pays $200 to go see a show and they don't play that hit from 1970, they're going to be very upset. We have a wide variety of music, you know, that we've recorded between six albums. It's not a lot, but, you know, there's still probably 12 songs in each of those albums. and we're always introducing new songs, trying them out. So it's a balance between old and new. And then we predominantly play bluegrass instruments. And a lot of our music comes from the roots of bluegrass, which people love some of those classics. So between our old favorites, our new favorites and covers, another thing that happens in our genre of music is people will take something outside of that hasn't been done on bluegrass instruments and do it. You know, maybe it's a song by Prince or the Grateful Dead or Elvis. And then all of a sudden people that are fans of those different genres of music and be like, oh, wait, I might like this band because I know this song. You've got to give them something that they know so they can tell if they like you or not. You can't just play original music or they're going to get tired. But once you got them, once they're on your side and they're rooting for you, then they'll get used to your original songs. And then once they're having a good time at your show or they're listening to your music while they're on the way to go fishing or hanging out with their friends, songs become favorites based on the experiences people are having while listening to them is my belief.
Katie
So do you think that makes it easier for you to play the same songs over and over again, knowing that, you know, for someone else, this is like the highlight of their, you know, their highlight of their evening or the highlight of their week or their month to come see you play this song? Like, does that help you get over, you know, hearing it for the 15th time this week?
Charles
There's an energy between the band and the crowd. If the crowd's having a good time, the band's going to have a good time. The band has a responsibility to always go up there and try to have a good time, no matter the size of the crowd or where you're playing. But the other thing that keeps it fresh is that the solos and the arrangements and the musics can change, almost like in jazz. The song's not exactly the same, no matter how many times you play it. It may be a different tempo. There may be different improvisational breaks. on the banjo or the fiddle or the mandolin and that kind of keeps it fresh too it's almost like nascar too you're just they're always going in the same direction and they all were trying to cross the finish line but sometimes they blow up and it's just that it's like just the chance that that wreck could happen at any moment it's pretty exciting to watch
Katie
well great moving on a little bit to the fishing the the topic that we kind of agreed on like talking about for fishing is is kind of matching different techniques to like you know the proper time for them because you mentioned that you know having an outfitter and having multiple guides do different things like you've been exposed to so many different fly types techniques things like that euro nymphing streamers dry flies indicator nymphing you can fly fish you know a million different ways but I feel like for for those who are new or those who have maybe just like focused on one thing for example I don't really fish streamers very often it means I'm good at fishing what I do fish but you know there's there's big gaps in what I do I feel like a lot of people are that way where they gravitate toward one thing but sometimes it feels like you're trying to you know stick a square peg in a round hole where you know this isn't the right time for this technique but it's what I know how to do so I'm going to do it and it sounds like you have a pretty wide variety of like experiences using different techniques. So I think that's where we're going to kind of steer it. And I may let you kind of take the reins for some of this, but maybe just start by giving an overview of like, what are the common techniques or fly types that you're using on a fairly regular basis? And I know there's different kinds of like, you know, nymphing could be tight line or an indicator nymphing. And I would call those two different things, but I'll let you kind of take it away and set the stage here and then we can kind of dive deeper.
Charles
Yeah, let's do that. And we'll just kind of approach it from where we are right now, coming out of winter and going into spring and what we've been doing. And we'll talk about some of those different techniques. And before, you know, these are just my opinions. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. And I certainly don't judge anybody about how they want to catch a fish or what style of fly fishing they're doing. You know, to me, it's just about being on the river, being outside. You know, they talk about the five levels of fly fishing. You want to catch a fish. You want to catch a lot of fish. You want to catch a big fish. You want to catch a wild fish. And then you just want to be out there, you know?
Katie
Right.
Charles
So let's, let's approach it, assuming that everybody's having a good time. So if you're in a boat, got some techniques that are going to work. And if you're waiting, you've got some techniques that are going to work. And some of them that work in a boat may not work in waiting. And some of the work in waiting may not work in a boat. We were just coming off winter fly fishing around here. The fish, there's less bugs, you know, it's cold. the fish are on the bottom of the rivers and if you find one you're probably going to find more than one so on our boat trips we're we're getting down you know we're fishing a lot of weight or you can fish weight or weighted flies depending on how your river is set up you know but we want to get down and we want to attract those fish give them something with traction getting something small but you just got to get down low I mean they say fish depth and a half we're probably going to twice the depth if we can just to make sure we're getting down we want to see that indicator ticking to know that it's hitting the bottom it's either a fish or it's the bottom and that was that's what set us up for successful winter streaming fisher streaming streamer fishing can be very effective in the winter too. Another good technique from the boat. We didn't see as many dry fly hatches during the winter. Not to say it doesn't happen. A lot of times when we choose to switch to dry fly fishing, it's because we're seeing, one, seeing bugs on the water, or two, mostly we're seeing fish rising to bugs. I was out today. It was a very windy day. But I was coming up on a section of water. My 15-year-old son, his first day on the boat was so proud of him. And all of a sudden, we see these birds. They're like a foot off the water, circling, going crazy. And I was like, Arlo, those birds are eating a ton of bugs. This could be really special. And we anchor up. I was like, let's just sit here and watch for a minute. And then we look over. Sure enough, even though the water's almost white capping, these trout heads are coming up. They're jumping all the way out of the water, eating these bugs. And sure enough, we switched from nymphing and throwing streamers to put on drys because we saw fish rising to bugs. And the birds are what tipped us off. And sure enough, you know, we caught several in no time flat. And that was because we saw fish rising. We saw birds. And that's kind of transitioning from winter to spring. We didn't see a lot of that last month. Last month, we probably would have had to kept dredging the bottom to find some of those same fish. so I i think be open-minded learn as much as you can I had another client who's fished with me for several years and his goal is to go wade fishing and be competitive with his buddies you know he's like he's like teach me teach me what I want to know this is what I want to know they're fishing smaller streams you know you're not getting over waist deep at the most and it's it's probably you know 20 20 to 30 yards at wide at the most and he he's come a long way he's a great fisherman but he he doesn't like to tight nine tight line them he doesn't he doesn't want to do it he says he's I just don't like it I don't want to do it I said you don't have to do that you can do whatever you want to do you know go dry eyedropper, go throw a streamer, go, uh, go swing wets or, you know, indicator fish. But he finally texted me, yesterday after fishing with his buddies again, he's like, I'm afraid I'm going to have to learn how to tightline them. He's like, call me tomorrow. He's, he's having so heartbroken. I haven't called him yet, but I think it was just for the situation they were in, that might've been a more productive way of fishing. And some of the advantages that we may use tight line nymphing or Euro nymphing, they call it different things. It's kind of like cane fishing, you know, but you've got typically a longer rod. We usually use something in the 10 foot region and you've got two weighted nymphs on, on, we usually, we probably run a mono rigs. So fly line to 25, 30 feet of mono and then a tippet ring and your tippet with a fly on the tag and a heavy fly on the bottom, your point fly. And you're trying to dead drift those nymphs to where fish will be. Fish like to be in the deep spots and the currents where it's like a conveyor belt of food and oxygen coming to them. And so you can present these small nymphs of, well, 80% of a trout's diet. It's probably underwater anyway, but they're probably eating, you know, hundreds of these little nymphs, whatever's in their river all day. And if they go and eat like a big minnow or a mouse or something crazy, that's probably the exception. That's like, oh, I got to spend a lot of energy. I got to go eat this. And I'm sure they enjoy it. But if you just want to kind of get to them and do what they're doing, like just they're burning calories sitting in the water and have to eat these little bugs, you make it easy as possible. You just dead drift right to their face. They're probably going to open their mouth, eat that bug. Sometimes you won't even feel it. The line will just stop and you set the hook. So if that fish changes its mind while you're going to feel it, I mean, you're in constant contact with those flies. And as soon as it's influenced by the fish, you're going to feel it. So there's no delay between a fly fishing line and a bobber and all this stuff. You just, you immediately feel it. And that's why it can be so effective. I remember when my fiancee went from fishing with indicator to tightline. And she went from catching like five to 20 fish, you know, and she loved it. It was great. And so you just in that own specialized field of fishing, you can go as far as you want to with that. You know, it's, it's gone to like, anyway, we won't have to go down that road. But the point of the story was in the smaller streams where you want to be in constant contact with your nips, it could be very productive. if you choose to do that. If clients want to learn that, we can certainly do that. If they don't want to fish like that, we don't have to do that. To me, depending on wade fishing or in a boat, I try to first consider what the clients wanted to do, always design a trip for them, but then I'll just kind of recommend a technique that I think will have the best results. Or it doesn't happen very often. I mean, I say that, but if the fish, if it's a little bit slower, the fish aren't biting or something, maybe we intentionally focus on something that they're not familiar with so they can build a new skill or a technique and take advantage of that time that we have together outside on this beautiful day. It's not always about putting fish in the net, but maybe you're learning something new that's going to make you a better fisherman.
Katie
I know you mentioned this, and I've heard this many times from other people, that tight line nymphing is kind of considered one of the most effective ways to catch fish. If your whole goal is to put as many fish in the net as possible, then tightline nymphing is arguably the best way to do that. When would you recommend an indicator setup over tightline nymphing? Is that a boat versus wading thing? Is that a...
Charles
No, I think it's a great question. It's not always right for every situation. I think when you want to make a longer cast, get a longer drift, you're going to want to throw a traditional setup. I've been in situations both wading and on a boat where in tightline nipping, you're usually focusing more or less, you know, a rod links over and two rod links up or down. It's a small field of water. I mean, granted, with the mono rig, you can do some things like swing streamers and dry fly fishing and stuff like that. But if you're just traditionally tightline fishing, you're working small little areas, you're wading up, you're wading down. But you may want to, you may be in a huge river out west or anywhere and you want to make a big long cast and, you know, throw it 30 yards up and have it come past the boat and go 30 yards down. Of course, that's going to be a tough hook set and heck to get a big fish in. But that would be a situation where you would not want to do that. I don't recommend people to do it from the boat. There's people that are just masters and they want to do it from the boat. Then, you know, go ahead. there was a buddy of mine had a client who brought an 18 foot 10 car rod. And he's like, Hey man, can I use this for your boat? And the guy was actually pretty open-minded about it. And this guy got out an 18 foot 10 car rod. And he said that that guy caught more fish on that trip. They didn't see any other client catch all year. This is a pretty good guy. And I thought that was kind of interesting, but by no, by no means do I think tight line nymphing is better than any other style. And it's just not right in certain situations, you know, certain situations you want to make a long dry fly cast and have a subtle landing and you want to, you know, stream your fish. But you're going to have people that like are diehard about that say, oh, you can do that with that. But that's not really the point. I'm just trying to say that there are situations where it's not the right technique to use. I think it's the best situation for that is small stream wade fishing.
Katie
And why is it not ideal for a boat? I know you said you can do it but you know why do you generally lean more toward like an indicator setup for something like a boat float?
Charles
I think there's just more going on in the boat with the moving boat and the moving currents and being a guy that's taught both it is much easier to teach somebody how to tight line fish than it is to fish like with a indicator fish you know everybody wants to be bad pit and throw that sucker in the air you know they want to let that thing rip like a river runs through it and that's just going to be knots it's going to be in trees it's really the worst nightmare even when I'm starting with my beginners with traditional fly fishing I'll usually say we got three casts here this is a roll cast this is going to be your friend you won't have to throw it in the tree as long as you don't get yourself in the face this is water loading or attention cast this is up two will be your friend and the third one I'll be like, I know you want to be Brad Pitt. River runs through it. And this is your traditional cast, you know, 10 o'clock, two o'clock, pause, you know. But I'll give them those three, teach them those three skills and then let them make the decisions of which situation is going to be the best to use. And here in Western North Carolina, too, a lot of our creeks are overgrown. We have branches and stuff on the side of the river. So we are doing kind of stealthier casts.
Katie
And how do you work with a client who's new to it to figure out when it is they're getting a strike? Because I feel like with an indicator, you know, most people, even if they're new to fly fishing, have had some experience with a bobber before. Even if they've never used one, like I would guess that like, you know, three quarters of the population understands the concept of a bobber. So an indicator is like pretty easy to explain what you're looking for. But how do you explain to somebody what they're like looking for feel wise? If they're tight line nymphing for the first time and every time their fly hits a little rock or something, they feel a little bump. How do you talk someone through that?
Charles
Well, I would say if you feel the bottom raise up on any style of fishing, when in doubt, set the trout. But you're going to be able to tell to some extent whether it's the bottom or not. You could have fished a run a thousand times in your life. You know exactly what the bottom of that river looks like. But still, on the first three to five casts on your tight line drift, you're still gathering information in real time. And each drift is going to get a little bit better. And even, like I said before, even if that line, if it does anything unnatural, it could just stop and you not feel anything, set. Like, it should be dead drifting. If it does anything unnatural, set and get ready to put it back in there again. And I mean, the theory is that you're using small tippet, small bugs, and you're not spooking these fish with big bobbers and big fly lines. So a lot of times you can really dissect a river and go past fish more than several times before they actually eat. And you think to yourself, well, now if you had just hit that bug 25 times ago when I put it in front of your face, we could have both saved a lot of time. Right. That's just not always the case.
Katie
You know, I wish you would give that memo to my fish too, because I feel the same way.
Charles
I'm like, what changed? What do you want me to do here? Let's work together.
Katie
In regard to indicators themselves, do you have any beliefs on, you know, one type of indicator being a better choice than another? Or do you kind of think that fish aren't looking that much toward the surface when they're feeding on the bottom and you could throw literally anything on there? You know, where on that spectrum do you fall?
Charles
I think once you know it all, you never stop learning. no I just I it tears me apart I was out just the other day with a very accomplished tailwater angler and we're just picking each other's brain trying to figure out what we can do outside of the box or what he's doing what I'm doing and you get totally different philosophies like a lot of people want to use a piece of wool or a New Zealand indicator because it's it's so sensitive that you know you're going to absolutely tell anything that ticks that and I get that that's cool or something like I don't want to use indicator I'm just going to use a chubby or a dry fly and then that way if the fish comes up and hits the indicator it's got a hook in his mouth and that's cool too and that works and some people are like well I'm going to use small foam indicator that's about as sensitive as yarn or New Zealand but it's easy for me to move up and down the line because my rivers go from two feet to 12 feet you know every 10 feet and that makes sense to me too and then some fishermen use weighted flies but some people use a lot of weight I mean you may want your weight to be on the bottom with unweighted flies above in which case that New Zealand wool or the small foam may not support those weights okay so then you're going to use a bigger bobber and some people are like oh why would you use a bigger bobber you know you're just you're going to miss bites you're going to miss bites well if you got a lot of weight and you really want to get down and then there's another technique of putting weights a foot or a couple feet below a bigger bobber and then that's getting everything down immediately as soon as that bobber hits the water anything below those weights is you're already two or three feet down no matter what's happening below those weights and I thought that was kind of interesting you know I was experimenting with that some and a lot of fish people may want to rig their nymphs So they're covering all the water columns. Okay. So maybe you've got one on a tag and then you're going down to another tag or either a heavier fly and something's coming off that. Or sometimes we'd like to, like you're doing this winter, put all the way to the bottom and have the flies come up from the weights. There's just different ways to do it. And none of it's better or worse than the others. There's just some that work at certain times of year on certain rivers and certain situations. So if you can just kind of learn about it all, try it and see what works for you, that would be what I would recommend. You know, there's certainly if you don't want to get too complicated, you don't want to overthink it, you can go as easy as possible too. I think get away with using as light an indicator as you can so you don't miss strikes. But if you're fishing with a lot of lead, you may have to sacrifice some of the sensitivity.
Katie
Yeah, that kind of brings me to the next question I had, which is on dry droppers. Because I am a huge dry dropper fan, but that also is maybe informed by the fact that I fish a lot of rivers that I feel like they do well on. You know, fairly shallow, fairly small, and with fish that are going to eat both on the surface and underneath because they have like a short feeding window. But I've heard people also argue that dry droppers do neither one very well. So, you know, it's not as effective as a dry fly because you've got the drag underneath that's kind of affecting the flow. And then, you know, the nymph isn't as effective because maybe you can't put as much weight on or it's going to sink the dry fly. So what are your thoughts on, you know, when to use a dry dropper versus an actual indicator rig?
Charles
Well, it's funny too, because we're sitting here talking about all this nymphing stuff, which I love. I love nymph fishing. But I go to certain areas of the country where they look like you're the devil if you are not throwing a streamer or just a single grasshopper. I'm like, oh, that's cool. I get it. That's what you like to do. It works. but I don't think there's anything wrong with using nymphs. Like we said before, you know, 80% of a trout's diet is underwater. Dry dropper is great because they may need to dry. It's also acting as an indicator for that nymph that's below. There are ways to make an adjustable dry dropper setup where you can actually slide. If that dry fly is on a short tag, you can easily slide it up and down. If you go on YouTube and search like adjustable dry dropper, you'll find a technique that works. But I think a lot of time when people are fishing dry dropper, they probably have a pretty good idea of the depth of the river. And I don't think it would be changing fast enough where they would have to worry about changing their dropper. Now, that is a good argument about you're not doing either one of them very well. I guess it depends on how big your fish are too. You know, like wild fish, which I, I love, I think it's the best, you know, cause it's just, it's, it's, it's challenging. I like to fish in situations that are going to make me a better fish. I like to be challenged, you know, if it's just fun fishing for me, but you know, no matter what I'm doing with a client, I want them to have a good time and catch fish and learn. But wild fish are much more peculiar about drift and presentation than fish that have been stocked to provide a service to the state or to, you know, the fishing industry.
Katie
Yeah. And I think even additionally, like not just stocked fish versus wild fish, but also pressured fish versus unpressured fish. That's a really good point.
Charles
And certain time of year, too. Like, you know, that's yeah. Angler pressure is a big deal. Those fish get smart. They get smart. They get educated.
Katie
Yeah, I feel like the fish that I usually fish for, like wild mountain fish, they are wild, so you could argue that they're not as easy to catch as a stalker, but they don't get fished for very often.
Charles
Yeah, there's some wild streams here where if you're willing to hike miles and miles away, some great wild fish. I mean, small, but even some big ones. And some of the people that I've learned from that are much successful, they take one fly. They're like, these fish aren't seeing much. If you throw it in there, they're going to hit this flock. I guarantee you, if you get back here as far as we are, they're going to hit this stonefly or patch for a leg or whatever it is. And they're like, if he does it, I might put on a print snap, but I doubt it. You know, it's like the hardest part is the hiking, not the fly selection.
Katie
Yeah. And I've kind of felt like people who say that dry dropper does both poorly while they're technically correct that, you know, neither one is being fished as effectively as it would be by itself. That's assuming that the fish you're fishing for are really, really sensitive to things like a perfect drift, which many fish are, but there's also a lot of fish who aren't. And if you're fishing for unpressured fish, I would argue that a dry dropper is one of the best things you could do because of what you said. You know, the fish basically could come up and take the indicator at that point. And if you're not fishing for fish that are that picky, then I see no reason not to basically double your chances of enticing something at that point.
Charles
It's a classic way to fish, and no matter the size of the fish, any time a fish eats off top, your heart's going to skip a beat, and that's pretty cool.
Katie
Right. Do you ever do a double dry?
Charles
Yes, I do a double dry. I actually had a triple dry on today.
Katie
That sounds like a knot waiting to happen.
Charles
Call it the three amigos. I just am a big fan of one. I know I'm going to see the bottom two will probably be the ones I think they're going to eat. I usually will either time all on the piece of tippet all through the eye. And if one of them breaks off, I have to change something, then I'll go straight to the hook. And it's almost like you're creating your old hatch. So you look up there and you've got three dry flies coming down the river. It's a beautiful sight. And I just kind of look for the big one that I know I can see. It's either a bigger color or a bigger size. And if I see a splash around it, I set on it.
Katie
Okay. So you're kind of using that. The first one, I guess that'd be the point fly. as a bit of an indicator for the other two, maybe smaller or harder to see dry flies.
Charles
Right. So if it's a caddis hatch, my first caddis is going to be larger than the other two. And, you know, it may be red and they're eating a gray caddis or something, just something I can really see. And it's fun. It's fun. You know, I don't know that I would do that with every client if they can't cast in such a way that those are going to get tangled up. But somebody who's got a good cast and can lay it out there, I think it's a lot of fun. And then they're kind of like naturally skating around each other almost like caddis do anyway but even with sulfurs or any other kind of midges anything else too I it's just me like I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong but I i enjoy having two or three drives out there at a time and most of the time what I'll do on the third one will be some sort of a merger maybe even something as simple as just an unweighted pheasant tail or some kind of emerging version of whatever bug I think's hatching because a lot of times these fish are eating subsurface we're seeing bugs on top but they may be eating the emerging bug and not actually eating the top bug or maybe they are but you just at least you have your bases covered with that third one being like some kind of emerging maybe a small rs2 or something like that and that's a really great trip that's a really great tip to anybody listening you know if if you they're not hitting what you think they're hitting add an emerger and see if that makes a difference. It's going to up your odds.
Katie
Now, does the way that you're using the dry fly as an indicator change between, you know, a dry, a double dry versus a dry emerger? Because I would, when I've done a double dry, I usually kind of do what you did, but where you have like a larger fly. And then, you know, for example, if they're eating like black, small black gnats, I would use like a larger dry as a, as an indicator. And then just say, if I see a rise near it, they're probably eating my little black nap. But if it's an emerger setup with a dry fly, I feel like I'd be looking at the dry to move, like you do something out of the ordinary. Whereas with a dry, with a double dry, I'm not actually watching the movement of the big one. I'm just watching to see if something rises near it. Are you doing a similar thing or do you kind of fish those two setups the exact same way?
Charles
Yeah, I'm still kind of looking at those flies. And like you say, it could just pull under the water because he's eaten that emerger without actually making a splash, you know, or it's, they're doing something, in that sense, if they do something unnatural, you want to check it. Um, another, setup I like on picky fish and shallow water is, is a couple of soft tackles and then still have that third fly be, some kind of a merger and, and swing them, you know, throw them out at like a 45 degree and then kind of swing them to the middle. And that can be very effective. Um, especially in between hatches when bugs stop or on pressured fish or in the summer, I found that that's a neat way to put clients on fish. And then you're just, you're looking at that line. Like you said, that line may just stop or tick and you want to check it because you're not in constant contact because it's swinging, it's changing direction. And that may be when the fish hits, like in tight line nymph and you swing set at the end of your drift because at the very end of your drift, that's when those flies change the line of their drift. And that's when that fish gets interested enough to hit it. But it's also when you lose contact with your fly. That's why you always teach people to set at the end of your drift because right when it changes into a different, I guess it wouldn't be a plane, but a different direction, a lot of times that fish will get interested enough to make a strike.
Katie
On the theme of, you know, choosing when to use various techniques, what triggers you to say, let's swing some wet flies? Is that just a, you know, someone wants to do it, someone wants to practice swinging? Because I know, you know, a lot of people just like the act of swinging, but is there something, you know, weather-wise or season-wise or fish behavior-wise that's going to tell you like, oh, right now we should try swinging an emerger or some wet flies for, you know, the best odds of catching something?
Charles
Yeah, there's probably a pretty scientific answer to that, you know, based on the conditions of the bugs, if they're not hatching or if they should be emerging. But honestly, for me, I look at it as like, not a last resort, but like, this usually works. I'm like, if these fish are being picky on me and they're not hitting something that I'm traditionally doing, then I'm going to be going through my brain. I'm like, well, how can I trick this fish? And to me, that's usually one of the first tactics I'll go to if the fish are being stubborn. Just for me, it usually works. I feel like it just probably looks like a lot of stuff they're seeing in the water, and they're more likely to hit it if they don't want to hit a big nymph or an egg or a worm or stream or whatever's going on. It's like, okay, well, let's get small. Let's swing some soft hackles around and see if that'll get them.
Katie
And how about streamers? That's kind of the one big category I can think of that we haven't really touched on yet. Kind of same question on that. When you fish streamers, is it more often because you just feel like fishing them? Or is there something that kind of indicates to you that, hey, instead of fishing a dry fly or a nymph, which I would call the two other kind of like big kind of first passes, like if I show up at a river and I see rises, I'm going to fish a dry. And if they're not rising, I'm probably going to start with a nymph. But is there any indication that you would see that would say, okay, I'm going to put a streamer on first today?
Charles
Well, I think if you want to become a good streamer fisherman, sometimes you just got to commit to it and just be like, hey, I'm going to do this all day. I'm going to do this. It's going to make you better. If you're just throwing streamers and you don't get any takes, you may be doing it right. I mean, it can be a hero or zero style of fishing. And I think you have to do it to get good at it. And it's not always just an escaping minnow. You know, I think you can swing that streamer like you're swinging a wet or something, or especially in high water, or make it look like something that's injured that's easier for the fish to eat than an escaping minnow. I mean, that's kind of big in saltwater fishing for speckled trout in the winter. You just slow everything down. But choosing a streamer or to fish a streamer or not, I think you have to think about, well, what's in this ecosystem? What's in this river? Are there any populations of minnows that we think these fish are eating regularly? Are they more interested in bugs this time of year? Or like, oh, are there crayfish in here? Could this streamer be representing the crayfish? So I think, think about the flow of the water. What kind of food's in the water? Are you going to be imitating something to these fish that they're seeing? But also it could be a reaction bite. A lot of times you'll get a reaction bite from fish. They might watch tons of nymphs go by and not care. Then the first four or five times you throw a streamer out there, they're like, oh my gosh, what's going on? We've got to swim over here and look at this. I hate this thing. I'm going to hit it even though I don't want to eat it. It can definitely have a reaction bite. And there's different philosophies on really big streamers and articulate streamers or small little woolly boogers. So I'd say learn to do it. Work on your cast. And then if you love it, do it all the time. If not, do it when you think it's appropriate to the situation you're in.
Katie
Yeah, and the point you just made is one that you kind of made earlier too when you talked about seeing the birds flying low over the water today, which is something I kind of wanted to touch on before we ended, which is observation, which it sounds like that's kind of the overarching theme here of choosing a technique. It kind of relies on observation, unless you're just choosing a technique that you like to do for fun. You know, if your goal is to catch fish the way they're eating right now, you need to kind of observe what's happening and match that. So what kinds of things are you observing when you go out? You know, you mentioned the birds flying all over the water and like seeing if they're crayfish, you know, flipping rocks and things like that. But what other things are you looking for to determine, A, what the fish are feeding on and B, like how they're eating those things and, you know, where they might be in the water column?
Charles
Some of the basic things you want to check every day are like the weather, you know, air temperature, clear skies, cloudy skies, water temperature, CFS, water flow. You know, is it running at 2200 or 240? Water clarity, you know, all those things are going to affect how you choose your flies or how you choose to fish those fish. And then those are just the basics. Everybody knows that, you know, is it clear? Is it dirty? Is it hot? Is it cold? And then when you're out there, the power of observation, like you said, you're like, oh, we're by a weir or a bridge. There are scuds on that bridge. Once I get past this bridge, I might fish scuds here. I know there's scuds here or it's this time of year. I know there's a stonefly hatch. And, you know, a lot of that entomology is stuff you may have to study or just kind of learn from locals. But like you said, pick up a rock. But knowing what types of bugs are in that river when is going to increase your chance of choosing a fly that's going to replicate something that fish are either actively feeding on or somewhere buried in their brain. They're like, hey, this is food. I should probably hit this.
Katie
Right. And what are your beliefs on flies matching what you're trying to imitate? Are you trying to get really granular with the exact size, color, shape? Do you think that one of those is more important than the other? As long as you match size, then you're mostly going to be good. I guess it's probably different based on which fish you're fishing for.
Charles
This is my favorite question. And I have a very good friend that I fish with a lot. He's a great fly tire and a great fisherman. And we go back and forth on this so much. And he just, he knows so much about bugs and such a great fly tire. It just, it burns him up when I tell him it's not the fly. He hates that. You know, I'm like, it's not the fly. It's the fisherman. Oh, I didn't mean to say his name. Bleep that out. I know he's kidding. It's all right. I think a long leader and a good drift will get you a lot further than matching the hatch exactly. But that being said, if you know what the fish are feeding on, throw it at them. But I also think attractor patterns work or, you know, perdigons are really big. Sometimes perdigons that are crazy colors work. And then you're like, oh, there's nothing in the river this color, but this fish seems to like it. So, yes, I want to say it's very, very important. But I like to argue that it's not the fly just to kind of be stubborn. So I would be more interested in people getting a great presentation than having the exact fly. But I know some people are going to disagree with that. But I say it, you know, jokingly and kindheartedly.
Katie
If you had to pick one feature on a fly that you think mattered the most. So I agree with you that presentation is kind of the quickest way to get a trout to eat. But let's say two people are dead drifting a fly the exact same way. so they have the same presentation but you know do you think that you know bugginess is the most important or getting the right size or or maybe even getting a different size than what's hatching because you want to stand out like is there something that you you would choose fly wise that's kind of like you know as long as I have this feature I feel good enough that the trout will you know think it's a real bug and want to eat it is that is there one thing that stands out above the rest?
Charles
I'd say size and weight. For me, most importantly, size. I think that trout are eating small bugs all day long. And so if I was going to choose one fly, probably some kind of small midge that I think they're going to be eating all day long, it would be in my presentation somewhere.
Katie
And I asked somebody else this recently, and I'm curious to hear what you had to say on this too. I don't know if you've ever seen the really, really hyper-realistic flies, the ones you know, people tie them and you honestly can't tell that it's not a real bug that's been like stuck on a hook. But I've heard that they fish terribly. Like they're not very good. You know, a hare's ear is basically just a tuft of fur wrapped around a hook and that can catch, you know, a hundred fish in a row. But putting what appears to be a real life stonefly on a hook, like that just doesn't do it for them the same way. Like, do you have any thoughts on why you can get too realistic with a fly?
Charles
Well, there's two kinds of flies. Some flies catch fish and some flies catch fishermen.
Katie
Right.
Charles
You know, yeah, you know, it's true though. Stuff that some of this stuff that looks awesome, it's got all this theory behind it. They'll sell a ton of it. And then somebody will take a little bit of peacock, curl and curl and red hook and outfish that fly all day long.
Katie
But why is that? Like what, you know, what could be the downside in there being a fly that looks too much like the real thing? Because, you know, the goal is to have a fly that looks like the real thing. You know, we match the size, we match the color, we match the shape. At some point, you've done all those things as perfectly as possible by getting a hyper-realistic imitation.
Charles
I guess it comes down to how good is the trout's vision and what are they looking for. But I would go back to my argument. Maybe that person, that really fancy fly is not getting a good drift or has the right presentation. Sure. I don't know the answer to your question, but those would be my thoughts.
Katie
Yeah, I don't think that necessarily is like a known answer. It's just kind of interesting that thread and fur and feathers on a hook doesn't really look like what you're trying to imitate, but it looks enough like a trout. And then you basically plaster a real thing on the hook and suddenly the trout don't want it anymore. It's just kind of interesting to wonder what's going on in their minds down there.
Charles
And that's the thing, too. It's like once you think you've got it figured out, that's when you're going to stop learning and not know. But if you're going to bed and waking up every morning and you're just worried about how to set up your nymph rig or if your stonefly is too realistic looking or something, then you're going to catch some fish. You're going to get some gray hair, but you're going to catch some fish. You're going to have some fun.
Katie
Yeah. Well, Charles, just to wrap up, if people want to come book a trip with your guide service or come check out your band, where can they find you either to see a live show or find your music online or book a trip with you?
Charles
Sure. songs from the road band is the name of the band and we're on all music outlets songs from the road band we're based at Ashville North Carolina and that's where the guide service is based out of too it's beast coast anglers and it's a our logo is a Sasquatch carrying a fly rod and we have a lot of fun with that and we certainly have a lot of fun at our live music shows and with our clients so any of your listeners that would like to connect I would love for them to come up and Say hello at a show or book some time to get out on the water together.
Katie
Yeah, maybe someone can book like a doubleheader where they come fishing with you on Thursday and then come watch a show on Friday.
Charles
Maybe you need like a fan club. You've got to let me mention this since you brought it up. We do a thing for a nonprofit called Candade, and they do a program. It's called Fishing with a Musician. And so people can bid on musicians to go fishing with. And then at the end, they have a big jam. And I just did one last week with Robert Greer from Town Mountain. And they both went out and caught tons of fish all day. And then we jammed. I played the bass because I'm a bass player. And Robert had his guitar out. Another guy got his guitar out. And it's just such a great program. And it raises money for Candade. And there's about 50 musicians from all different genres of music that you can bid on. So if your listeners are interested with that, go to Candade, I believe it's.org, and check out the Fishing with a Musician program. And if you're in the Southeast, there's a good chance that Beast Coast Anglers will be the guide service for some of those musicians. And then in that way, you almost get a two-for-one, like the lady said. She's like, I got two-for-one. I'm so excited. I got Robert Greer and Charles Huffman III.
Katie
Well, that's awesome.
Charles
But seriously, it combines music and fishing and it's for a great cause.
Katie
Oh, that sounds awesome. Well, Charles, thank you so much. I know we had some technical difficulties early on, so I appreciate you bearing with me, but this has been a ton of fun and it's great to talk to a famous musician. Someone requested you and said that you'd be a great person to reach out to, so I just really appreciate you taking the time and chatting with me about this.
Charles
It's been a pleasure, Katie, and I hope my accent wasn't too thick. You sound much more articulated than I do. No, not at all. Please come out and go fishing with me in the area. I would love to get on the water together.
Katie
Well, yeah, I would love to do one of these double headers.
Charles
Yeah, open invitation anytime. Perfect.
Katie
Well, thank you again. Hopefully our paths cross someday. And if not, I'll just be listening to your music in the meantime and dreaming about fishing.
Charles
Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Katie
All right, that's a wrap. Thank you all for listening. If you want to find all the other episodes as well as show notes, You can find those on fishuntamed.com. You'll also find the contact link there if you want to reach out to me. And you can also find me on Instagram at fishuntamed. If you want to support the show, you can give it a follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. And if you'd like to leave a review, it would be greatly appreciated. But otherwise, thank you all again for listening. I'll be back here in two weeks with another episode. Take care, everybody.
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